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Thread: Sound Horizon - Ushinawareshi Uta

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    Default Sound Horizon - Ushinawareshi Uta

    So I've finally decided to take another shot at this album. I'd really appreciate any feedback. Thanks in advance!

    On a slightly different note, the transliteration for this song will be somewhat problematic,
    due to the fact that nearly none of these lyrics are actually being sung.
    Frankly, I'm not even sure if what is being song is an actual language, or simply a combination of a bunch of random sounds.
    I'd find it very hard to believe if it was one.


    Romaji:

    [Gobanme no kioku]

    Shijitsu to iu gensou de wa terasezaru kioku no yami
    Imada jidai mo basho sae mo seikaku ni wa tokutei dekiteinai
    Aru shoujo ga tsudzutta to sareteiru hametsu e no fuukei
    Sono ushinawareshi uta no danpen...

    [Anata ni mo... Wasuremono wa arimasenka...?]

    Ay faw styul-li, ay fawnt layx.
    Fo lof ti hayn, za tu fayn di el-mows.

    Daisuki na sora daisuki na machi
    Kono mama onaji you ni ashita e tsudzuiteyuku to shinjiteita

    Kuz el fi nos, styul-li er-ayz.
    No wez wi, en fi lo stul-li.

    Kawaita kuchibue sora wo wataru shirabe
    Sono hi kaze ni noru no wa kuchibue dake janai to shitta...

    Swi wez da kral-fay, nan wiz a fey-low.
    En wiz da li-lis, mey far da dawn-lows.
    Dey tyu da fyu-dey, dey tyu da fyu-dey.
    Dey fi la fal-tes, nan fiz da flaw-low.

    Sore wa chiisana akui no tane
    Hajimari wa tatta hitotsu no uso
    Anata wa dare? Watashi wa dare?
    Yoku mo waruku mo kanjou wa sodatteyuku hana

    De le stul-lu, vi am el-i so wil-lowx.
    De a lu faw stul-li, me a el-i fey stul-li.
    Mow a ley lo du fi, zi as el faynt tu la.
    Zow a liz on, me liz en al-on.

    Kawaita daichi ni wa gishin-anki no ame ga furi
    Watashi no kuni wa ichiya ni shite horonda
    Shinjiau kokoro sore wa "wasurete wa ikenai mono"
    Naze motto hayaku kidzukanakatta no darou...

    English:

    [Fifth Memory]

    Within the illusion called 'historical evidence', dwells a darkness of an unilluminable memory.
    The time, or even the place it originates from, still cannot be precisely specified.
    A girl is accredited with having composed a scenery to destruction.
    The fragments of that Lost Song...

    [Have you... Forgotten anything as well...?]

    The sky I treasured... The city I treasured...
    I believed they would forever remain as they are[1].

    A dried whistle... A melody crossing through the sky...
    It was on that day, that I learned whistles weren't all that rides atop the wind...

    It was a small seed of spite and malice;
    In the beginning, it was but one mere lie[2].
    Who are you? Who am I?
    For better or worse, emotions are flowers that grow.

    A rain of infinite suspicions[3] poured down on the parched land,
    And my home perished overnight.
    Oh, why haven't we been aware of it sooner...
    That our mutually trusting heart... Is "the thing we must not forget."

    Kanji:

    (五番目の記憶)

    史実という幻想では 照らせざる記憶の闇
    未だ時代も場所さえも 正確には特定出来ていない
    ある少女が綴ったとされている 破滅への風景
    その失われし詩の断片…

    (アナタにも…忘れ物はありませんか…?)

    大好きな空 大好きな町
    このまま同じように明日へ続いてゆくと信じていた

    乾いた口笛 空を渡る調べ
    その日風に乗るのは口笛だけじゃないと知った…

    それは小さな悪意の種
    始まりはたった一つの嘘
    貴方は誰? 私は誰?
    良くも悪くも感情は育ってゆく花

    渇いた大地には疑心暗鬼の雨が降り
    私の国は一夜にして滅んだ
    信じあう心…それは「忘レてはいけないモノ」
    何故もっと早く気付かなかったのだろう…

    [1] - It's just one of those cases where I think I more or less know what it means, but am having a hard time expressing it in English.

    [2] Would it be too much of a reach if I translated it as, "It started its journey as..."?

    [3] If anyone has a better idea on how to translate 疑心暗鬼 here that'd be great.

    Getting back to this whole transliteration issue, I guess I could submit the translit as I have it now,
    and add those gibberish parts to the translation as well. Though this might call for an Admin decision.
    Last edited by Haze~; 06-25-2015 at 04:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Sound Horizon - Ushinawareshi Uta

    I'm being blocked, so I have to post my comments in pieces until I figure out where the problem is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haze~ View Post
    Frankly, I'm not even sure if what is being song is an actual language, or simply a combination of a bunch of random sounds.
    Well, you have a stanza-by-stanza translation into Japanese. You could try playing Rosetta Stone with it, but you'd have to assume that it's a real language or that it's a fake language that was given grammatical rules and structure. At a glance I can say that if the real-or-fake language here does have structure and rules, they can't be straightforwardly deduced line-by-line. (and the Japanese "translation" might not be literal or line-by-line).

    Anyway, back to the main issue at hand.

    ---------- Post added at 04:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Haze~ View Post
    [1] - It's just one of those cases where I think I more or less know what it means, but am having a hard time expressing it in English.
    This raises a few questions. How do you want to express it in English? Do you want to use the same basic metaphor and structure, or do you just want to put something else there that means the same general thing? Also, note that you have a slight tense issue:

    ---------- Post added at 04:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Haze~ View Post
    I believed they would forever remain as they are
    ***
    Quote Originally Posted by Haze~ View Post
    [2] Would it be too much of a reach if I translated it as, "It started its journey as..."?


    ---------- Post added at 04:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:55 AM ----------

    With the way you're interpreting the line, I would say no.

    ---------- Post added at 05:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:58 AM ----------

    But I would think you would say journey with or something. Actually, it's hard to say because I'm interpreting the line differently. So I guess we need to answer a fundamental question: 何の始まり?. Also, what does うそ refer to?

    ---------- Post added at 05:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 AM ----------

    QUOTE=Haze~;2856317][3] If anyone has a better idea on how to translate 疑心暗鬼 here that'd be great.[/QUOTE]

    I have a few ideas, but I don't want to steal or otherwise mess with your thunder. When you encounter terms like this it's usually extremely helpful to research it to find out etymology or what the parts mean. Check here and especially here. It's actually fairly similar to "seeing shadows in every corner".

    Try writing out a bunch of different variations and options and see where it takes you. If you want to go with what you're currently using, then I think it would be better to say "boundless suspicion" rather than "infinite suspicion".

    Quote Originally Posted by Haze~ View Post
    I'd really appreciate any feedback.
    I have a few comments about other parts of the song and your translation. Some of them are about accuracy and some are much more subjective, so take them as food for thought.

    First, you should go back over the first "stanza" thing (the part that introduces the song).
    1. You have the first line translated as a location, but the particle で can't be used to mark a location of existence. Think about the other uses of で and which ones might apply to the sentence. Also think about whether the では is part of the relative clause or the main clause.
    2. What does 照らせざる modify? 記憶 or 闇?
    3. What relationship does 風景 have with the rest of the "stanza"?
    4. Are できていない and とされている independent clauses or relative clauses?
    5. Why does it say できていない instead of できない?
    6. What did the girl compose?
    7. Is the last line intended to be a fragment or a sentence? Is 断片 singular or plural?

    Then a few smaller issues.

    その日風に乗るのは口笛だけじゃないと知った…

    It was on that day, that I learned whistles weren't all that rides atop the wind
    Your "it was...that" is on the wrong parts of the sentence.

    良くも悪くも感情は育ってゆく
    For better or worse, emotions are flowers that grow.
    I don't think the meaning of 育ってゆく is reflected in the translation. Neither are the implications.

    渇いた大地には疑心暗鬼の雨が降り
    私の国は一夜にして滅んだ
    A rain of infinite suspicions poured down on the parched land,
    And my home perished overnight.
    If you change くに to home then the connection between the sentences becomes less clear. Also, "overnight" doesn't convey the same emphasis to me as 一夜にして.

    Oh, why haven't we been aware of it sooner...
    Why did you choose "have been aware"?

    I think you should rethink your interpretation of 信じあう心 and your translation of it. 心 has other definitions.

    Last but not least, 口笛 doesn't necessarily refer to a whistle. It can also refer to whistling. If you search on google images, you'll see remarkably few images of whistles and surprisingly many pictures of whistling.
    Last edited by GrammarNinja64; 06-26-2015 at 04:10 AM. Reason: Formatting

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    Default Re: Sound Horizon - Ushinawareshi Uta

    Thanks for the feedback!

    >Well, you have a stanza-by-stanza translation into Japanese. You could try playing Rosetta Stone with it, but you'd have to assume that it's a real language or that it's a fake language that was given grammatical rules and structure. At a glance I can say that if the real-or-fake language here does have structure and rules, they can't be straightforwardly deduced line-by-line. (and the Japanese "translation" might not be literal or line-by-line).

    Actually, those lyrics have been transcribed by ear by someone in the SH歌おう Wiki, and weren't included in the official booklet, hence I really don't think it's a language of any sort, really. It could be something similar to a "morse code", but again, I have no idea. I'll never understand the wonders of Revo. xP

    >This raises a few questions. How do you want to express it in English? Do you want to use the same basic metaphor and structure, or do you just want to put something else there that means the same general thing? Also, note that you have a slight tense issue:

    Scratch that, actually. If the current version works, I'll stick to that. And ah! Thanks for the catch.

    >But I would think you would say journey with or something. Actually, it's hard to say because I'm interpreting the line differently. So I guess we need to answer a fundamental question: 何の始まり?. Also, what does うそ refer to?

    種の始まりだと思うんですが。And I have no idea why I felt the need to say that in Japanese. Anyway, I'd translate it as: "It started its journey as one mere lie." so 'with' isn't really an option here. Out of curiosity, how did you interpret the line? And I think 嘘 refers to the break of trust between the people, and how it evolves into something greater, ultimately leading to her/their home being perished.

    >What does 照らせざる modify? 記憶 or 闇?

    I've spent some time thinking this over myself and eventually went with 記憶. Although I don't see why it can't be interpreted both ways. It's not too odd to think that each person can have a different way of seeing a song/its lyrics. Which is actually pretty cool, but I'm getting a little off track here.

    >What did the girl compose?

    It's definitely 破滅への風景 in my opinion. Though if you have another idea, I'd love to hear it.

    >Your "it was...that" is on the wrong parts of the sentence.

    I'm not sure I follow. What's wrong with the sentence?

    >I don't think the meaning of 育ってゆく is reflected in the translation. Neither are the implications.

    I agree about how 'grow' just maybe isn't strong enough. "Evolve", maybe? If I can't think of anything else, I'll stick to how it is now, I guess.

    >If you change くに to home then the connection between the sentences becomes less clear. Also, "overnight" doesn't convey the same emphasis to me as 一夜にして.

    Come to think of it, it's plausible. "Country" might work better.
    Really? I don't see what's wrong with "overnight". I originally had "Within a single night", but then again I'm not sure what the problem was in the first place.

    >I have a few ideas, but I don't want to steal or otherwise mess with your thunder. When you encounter terms like this it's usually extremely helpful to research it to find out etymology or what the parts mean. Check here and especially here. It's actually fairly similar to "seeing shadows in every corner".

    Try writing out a bunch of different variations and options and see where it takes you. If you want to go with what you're currently using, then I think it would be better to say "boundless suspicion" rather than "infinite suspicion".

    I did do a research. Simply put, it's something like: "Once you suspect something, everything else will look suspicious". I'll just have to give it some thought.

    >I think you should rethink your interpretation of 信じあう心 and your translation of it. 心 has other definitions.

    When it's a matter of trust, it's usually talking about hearts.

    >Last but not least, 口笛 doesn't necessarily refer to a whistle. It can also refer to whistling. If you search on google images, you'll see remarkably few images of whistles and surprisingly many pictures of whistling.

    How do you tell the difference between them by looking at images? To be clear, I wasn't referring to the object.

    Thanks for the feedback again!
    Last edited by Haze~; 06-26-2015 at 07:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Sound Horizon - Ushinawareshi Uta

    >When it's a matter of trust, it's usually talking about hearts.

    I also like "hearts" better than any other interpretation of 心 here, but I do think it should be hearts, plural. The reciprocity implied in 信じあう seems to require at least two things to be involved.

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    Default Re: Sound Horizon - Ushinawareshi Uta

    Quote Originally Posted by Haze~ View Post
    種の始まりだと思うんですが。And I have no idea why I felt the need to say that in Japanese. Anyway, I'd translate it as: "It started its journey as one mere lie." so 'with' isn't really an option here. Out of curiosity, how did you interpret the line? And I think 嘘 refers to the break of trust between the people, and how it evolves into something greater, ultimately leading to her/their home being perished.
    You probably felt the need because I asked in Japanese (sort-of). I enjoyed the fact that you did respond in Japanese, anyway.

    To me the 始まり is the 悪意の始まり, though there is also the possibility that it's the 破滅の始まり. And to me the うそ refers to the 始まり (始まり=うそ). I'm not sure what the exact content of the うそ is, but I agree with you that the song implies that the うそ caused a break in trust between people. So when you translate the line as "It started its journey as one mere lie", my brain says "What is the 'it'?". 破滅 can't really have a journey. 悪意 sort-of could, but it can't start its journey as a lie. That's why I was thinking with. 種 of course can go on a journey, and it could also start off as a lie.

    Does that clear up how I was looking at it? Actually, now that I wrote it down, I think the 始まり is definitely 悪意の始まり (which just also happens to be 破滅の始まり), not 破滅の始まり.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haze~ View Post
    I've spent some time thinking this over myself and eventually went with 記憶. Although I don't see why it can't be interpreted both ways. It's not too odd to think that each person can have a different way of seeing a song/its lyrics. Which is actually pretty cool, but I'm getting a little off track here.
    I definitely agree with you that people can see songs and lyrics differently. There might even be Japanese people who disagree on this question. As a purely grammatical question, 照らせざる記憶の闇 has the structure VERB NOUN1 の Noun2, and therefore is technically ambiguous. However, once the semantic information is factored in, I think 闇 becomes a clearly better candidate. Memories are not normally something one can illuminate or shine light on, but darkness is. In other words, the basic metaphor is that the darkness/unclear parts can be cleared up, so it would make more sense for 照らせざる to modify 闇.

    In any event, if you adopt a means translation (で) rather than the current "dwell" translation, then you don't actually have to answer the question. You can maintain the same grammatical structure and ambiguity in the translation. Depending on how you translate the line, it will be a case where either interpretation will have the same result/effect/meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haze~ View Post
    It's definitely 破滅への風景 in my opinion. Though if you have another idea, I'd love to hear it.
    So, I haven't encountered 綴る before, but I assumed it meant specifically to compose a song or poem (at least in this case). In English if you say "The girl composed the scene", then the girl made the scene. It would mean the girl arranged everything and created the scene. 風景 is the direct object of 綴った in the lyrics, but that doesn't create the same relationship. It means she made a song or poem about the 風景. She didn't make the 風景 itself.

    I looked up 綴る in a Japanese-Japanese dictionary to confirm that interpretation/impression. The second definition in 広辞苑 is 言葉を連ねて詩歌・文章を作る. One of the example sentences is 「思いを綴る」, which unambiguously means to put your thoughts/feelings to song or to put your thoughts/feelings to verse. 明鏡国語辞典 gives even clearer examples under its second definition for 綴る (ことばを並べてまとまりのある文章を作る。また、自分の気持ちや体験などを文章にする): 「感想をエッセーに綴る」=arrange your impressions into an essay.

    In other words, there are at least two major uses of the verb. In one usage the direct object is a word that has something to do with writing, in which case the word fairly literally means "compose X". In the other usage the direct object is a feeling, or an experience, or some other thing that does not have to do with writing. In that case the word means "compose a song, poem, or written work about X".

    Quote Originally Posted by Haze~ View Post
    >Your "it was...that" is on the wrong parts of the sentence.

    I'm not sure I follow. What's wrong with the sentence?
    "It was...that" is called a cleft construction and helps manage where focus is being placed in the sentence. The original Japanese places focus on 風に乗るのは, not その日(which has some emphasis, but not tons). This might be the easiest way to explain/illustrate what I mean.
    Here's the original lyric broken into its structure a little bit: [その日[[風に乗るの]は口笛だけじゃない]と知った]…

    If I translated your translation back into Japanese, it would be like this: [[ [[風に乗るの]は口笛だけじゃない] と知ったの]はその日だった]

    Quote Originally Posted by Haze~ View Post
    I agree about how 'grow' just maybe isn't strong enough. "Evolve", maybe? If I can't think of anything else, I'll stick to how it is now, I guess.
    It's not so much what verb you use for そだつ. I think the main issue is that the ゆく part doesn't quite come through. The idea is that emotions start down a certain path and keep developing in that direction (a bad direction). I'm not sure I have any good ideas at the moment, but if you think about the "keep on going" aspect and whether there are any ways to tie it back to the seed metaphor, you might be able to come up with something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haze~ View Post
    When it's a matter of trust, it's usually talking about hearts.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluepenguin View Post
    >When it's a matter of trust, it's usually talking about hearts.

    I also like "hearts" better than any other interpretation of 心 here, but I do think it should be hearts, plural. The reciprocity implied in 信じあう seems to require at least two things to be involved.
    With trust heart/hearts is often the right interpretation, but 心 can refer to feelings and emotions themselves and not just one's heart in general.For example, in Ni No Kuni, the individual emotions and virtues were referred to as 我慢の心 and 勇気の心, etc., even though 勇気 and 我慢 on their own would be enough.

    If 信じあう actually referred to someone's heart, then 忘れる in 忘れてはいけないモノ wouldn't make sense, since you can't forget a heart. But you can forget an emotion.

    In the context of this song 信じ合う心 is something like "willingness to trust others". That would also maintain the sense of reciprocality that bluepenguin mentioned because you know multiple people are invovled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haze~ View Post
    How do you tell the difference between them by looking at images? To be clear, I wasn't referring to the object.
    I was talking about the object and the act of whistling. It's more difficult to tell the difference between a whistle (not the object) and whistling with pictures, but it's still possible. A whistle (non-object) is usually one or two notes, while whistling can be just one or two notes or a whole song. There are lots of pictures of people whistling songs or whistling into a microphone, or whistling with lots of notes drawn around them, so whistling is also a possible translation.

    As a side-note, if you translate 口笛 as whistling, then no one can confuse it for the object.

    Did that all make sense?
    Last edited by GrammarNinja64; 06-26-2015 at 10:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Sound Horizon - Ushinawareshi Uta

    >So, I haven't encountered 綴る before, but I assumed it meant specifically to compose a song or poem (at least in this case). In English if you say "The girl composed the scene", then the girl made the scene. It would mean the girl arranged everything and created the scene. 風景 is the direct object of 綴った in the lyrics, but that doesn't create the same relationship. It means she made a song or poem about the 風景. She didn't make the 風景 itself.

    I actually believe she was the one responsible for how this whole thing turned out. As in she "flamed" a small lie (悪意の種) and it proceeded to grow and spread to other people and they started to suspect each other (あなたは誰? 私は誰?) and conflicted among themselves until there was nothing left. 「乾いた口笛 空を渡る調べ
    その日風に乗るのは口笛だけじゃないと知った…」also contributes to supporting this theory. That's my take for it, anyway.

    >"It was...that" is called a cleft construction and helps manage where focus is being placed in the sentence. The original Japanese places focus on 風に乗るのは, not その日(which has some emphasis, but not tons). This might be the easiest way to explain/illustrate what I mean.
    Here's the original lyric broken into its structure a little bit: [その日[[風に乗るの]は口笛だけじゃない]と知った]…

    If I translated your translation back into Japanese, it would be like this: [[ [[風に乗るの]は口笛だけじゃない] と知ったの]はその日だった]

    The construction might be a little bit different, but I still believe it makes for a valid translation.

    >As a side-note, if you translate 口笛 as whistling, then no one can confuse it for the object.

    A "dried whistling" just sounds weird to me, though. Plus, the source material isn't referring to the act of whistling but to a whistle. If that made sense.

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    Default Re: Sound Horizon - Ushinawareshi Uta

    Quote Originally Posted by Haze~ View Post
    >As a side-note, if you translate 口笛 as whistling, then no one can confuse it for the object.

    A "dried whistling" just sounds weird to me, though. Plus, the source material isn't referring to the act of whistling but to a whistle. If that made sense.
    "Dried whistling" should sound just as weird as "a dried whistle". Technically "dry" is a better general translation of 乾いた, but in any event I'm not sure why you think there's a difference between dried whistling and dried whistle. They sound weird because the it's a Japanese metaphor that doesn't work in English. 乾く has a second definition. Besides dry 乾く can mean "devoid of emotion" or "devoid of vigor". In other words, it is equivalent to the English "hollow" or "empty".

    I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at when you say it refers to a whistle. We both agree that it doesn't refer to an actual object or instrument. The word whistling (the noun) refers to the act of whistling and to the sound that is produced from the act. The word whistle (the noun) can refer to the sound too, but it refers to a more limited sound. A whistle is a one or two-note sound. A whistle cannot have a melody. Whistling can be as many notes as you want, and it can have a melody.

    I actually believe she was the one responsible for how this whole thing turned out. As in she "flamed" a small lie (悪意の種) and it proceeded to grow and spread to other people and they started to suspect each other (あなたは誰? 私は誰?) and conflicted among themselves until there was nothing left. 「乾いた口笛 空を渡る調べ
    その日風に乗るのは口笛だけじゃないと知った…」also contributes to supporting this theory. That's my take for it, anyway.
    I would say that the song does not explicitly tell us who is responsible. We know from the word 風景 that there is an observer. The girl who composes the song is the observer, and the lines 大好きな空 大好きな町 and 乾いた口笛 空を渡る調べ are her observations. She sees the city and the sky. She hears the whistling and the melody. She might be the one whistling, but she might not be. She is definitely the 私 in the song, and she is definitely the subject of 知った, but that doesn't tell us whether she's the one whistling, and it doesn't tell us whether she started the 嘘 or planted the 悪意の種.

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    Default Re: Sound Horizon - Ushinawareshi Uta

    >"Dried whistling" should sound just as weird as "a dried whistle". Technically "dry" is a better general translation of 乾いた, but in any event I'm not sure why you think there's a difference between dried whistling and dried whistle. They sound weird because the it's a Japanese metaphor that doesn't work in English. 乾く has a second definition. Besides dry 乾く can mean "devoid of emotion" or "devoid of vigor". In other words, it is equivalent to the English "hollow" or "empty".

    I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at when you say it refers to a whistle. We both agree that it doesn't refer to an actual object or instrument. The word whistling (the noun) refers to the act of whistling and to the sound that is produced from the act. The word whistle (the noun) can refer to the sound too, but it refers to a more limited sound. A whistle is a one or two-note sound. A whistle cannot have a melody. Whistling can be as many notes as you want, and it can have a melody.

    "Dried whistling" sounded extremely weird to me for a second there, for some odd reason, but it's fine, really. There's nothing wrong with it... o.o

    >I would say that the song does not explicitly tell us who is responsible. We know from the word 風景 that there is an observer. The girl who composes the song is the observer, and the lines 大好きな空 大好きな町 and 乾いた口笛 空を渡る調べ are her observations. She sees the city and the sky. She hears the whistling and the melody. She might be the one whistling, but she might not be. She is definitely the 私 in the song, and she is definitely the subject of 知った, but that doesn't tell us whether she's the one whistling, and it doesn't tell us whether she started the 嘘 or planted the 悪意の種.

    Thinking over the 綴ったとされている line, I agree it could be 風景について書いた but it could also be the one where she was the one composing it. Unless a Revo comment magically appeared, I can't tell which is the right one.

    Thanks for the help again!

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