Philosophical headache thread: Is your mirror image alive?

[GameGeeks]

So a technicality, though you're right. I should have used it. I'm just used to typing the way I talk. Though in spoken conversation I guess it'd still be a goof.

[Adanadhel]

Refer to my previous post.

Ah, but in this question I've made I'm not referring to the physical living, but to the psychological side. What you see reflected is you alive or dead? I'm not discussing if the reflection is actually alive or dead. I'm simply proposing an interpretation of your reflection, meaning, yourself...XP

[GameGeeks]

It's neither, it's a mimic or a copy of you at that very moment. It can't be interpreted any other way, at least from a logical standpoint. If you go into say a spiritual stand point then that's a whole other beast.

[Skylar1]

Ah, but in this question I've made I'm not referring to the physical living, but to the psychological side. What you see reflected is you alive or dead? I'm not discussing if the reflection is actually alive or dead. I'm simply proposing an interpretation of your reflection, meaning, yourself...XP

That's called Solipsismwiki.

[Anoleis]

I think that the reflection could be considered alive, simply out of the facts that while being on the mirror it could be considered a piece of art, and art is and entity that has been considered living for quite some time. Basically it's like a drawing but done out of light. Now this drawing can change and it's themes or styles will change as well, just like an artistic movement. This being so we can assume, in a philosophical manner, that you reflection is alive~

[aNGRY sCOT]

noo luikit heyur wi t seerius qestiyuns, its aw **** coz maist fowk jist winnae acchully cayur bit frae sam weeird reesun fowk oan tis fairum air kinna seerius abboot stuff like thi an a bit maisst fowk wi na brayuns are nashulalists sae theye winnae bi heyur onyrowd bit coz miast fowlk arnie gannae tak it seerius onywaiy nae buddy dis tak it seerius, ciz ya ken they commies wot aintgit brayuns ciz the hink gawd is a lumpa chheeze, seeriuli if thay donnae beleeve in gad ten hoo kin tay rool t worl? dae ya git ma meenin

[Furore]

When you touch your reflection, does it not touch back?

Not when there's nothing showing. Then all I'm doing is touching a reflective surface that isn't currently displaying a reflection. Suppose I was wearing some sort of clothing that prevented blackbody radiation from escaping and was deep within a cave that no natural light could permeate, would the reflection exist even in a way I couldn't observe?

Also, with which other senses can you observe the clouds?

All the usual. Though I'd avoid them if you ever do any extreme sports that involve jumping out of a plane as from what I've heard they're both cold and sharp, good fun to observe with the senses.

[Eris]

Not when there's nothing showing. Then all I'm doing is touching a reflective surface that isn't currently displaying a reflection.

That's actually impossible. Try touching a mirror without hitting the reflection of your finger.

Suppose I was wearing some sort of clothing that prevented blackbody radiation from escaping and was deep within a cave that no natural light could permeate, would the reflection exist even in a way I couldn't observe?

You pretty much can't block out blackbody radiation. Not in any sort of environment you'd be able to observe the mirror in, anyway.

[Wolfie Poo]

noo luikit heyur wi t seerius qestiyuns, its aw **** coz maist fowk jist winnae acchully cayur bit frae sam weeird reesun fowk oan tis fairum air kinna seerius abboot stuff like thi an a bit maisst fowk wi na brayuns are nashulalists sae theye winnae bi heyur onyrowd bit coz miast fowlk arnie gannae tak it seerius onywaiy nae buddy dis tak it seerius, ciz ya ken they commies wot aintgit brayuns ciz the hink gawd is a lumpa chheeze, seeriuli if thay donnae beleeve in gad ten hoo kin tay rool t worl? dae ya git ma meenin

Lmao!


My mirror tells lies. D:


I don’t see my mirror image to be alive. The mirror is merely a physical and spiritual reflection associated with light to help us see what/who is in front of it.

[Furore]

That's actually impossible. Try touching a mirror without hitting the reflection of your finger.

It's impossible for me to touch a mirror in the absence of light my eyes can actually see? :/

You pretty much can't block out blackbody radiation. Not in any sort of environment you'd be able to observe the mirror in, anyway.

I did say supposing I could block it. I thought part of this thread was thinking outside the box?

[wolfgirl90]

@GameGeeks:, @Digital Dragon:, @wolfgirl90:, and well... pretty much anyone here in general, I believe that the time has come that I de-mystify some of the myths that I see are beginning to circulate here about what the definition of life is.

All life is, is nothing more than a very complex form of matter. The distinction is made though by the ability for the matter to preform extremely complex actions of both physics and chemistry which is defined in the following (and must meet ALL of these prerequisites or is does not qualify as life):

• Adaptability to environment
• Must be made of at least 1 cell (because anything less then that wouldn't have the resources necessary to carry out the functions to preform all of the prerequisites.)
• Metabolism (it's gotta make food into energy to sustain it's self.
• Growth and development
• Capable of Evolution
• Responds to outside influence (ie, stimuli)
• Must have the ability to Reproduce it's self

Because Viruses do not meet these specific requirements, they themselves are not categorized as life, but instead a sub-group known as non-cellular lifewiki.

Through using this method, one can distinctly determine whether or not something is technically "life" or not. A human would count, while a rock on the other hand would not.

No offense, but I'm already well aware of that definition (I may be Pagan, but I have been studying advanced sciences for years).

Not sure what you were assuming, but my belief in life forces does not mean that I assign the definition of "life" to every other thing. In fact, in my post, I was telling Digital Dragon that I DON'T understand how life forces have anything to do with mirrors and mirror images because I honestly do not go that far in my definition of "life force" (I don't know any Pagan who does). Sure, I believe in an energy within the mirror (please don't ask to elaborate any further), but this energy doesn't mean that's its alive or should be treated as such.

[Skylar1]

@wolfgirl90: could I, at the very least, ask what this "life force" is?

[miniPhil]

@wolfgirl90: could I, at the very least, ask what this "life force" is?

Its what Luke used to blow up the Death Star. I tried using it once to get the pot of coffee in the morning but coffee just went everywhere and I got a couple of burns. I'm not very good at it.

[wolfgirl90]

@wolfgirl90: could I, at the very least, ask what this "life force" is?

Very well, if my answering of your question is to satisfy your curiosity or to gain insight (not that you have to agree), and not to further any New Age bashing (the skepticism and jokes I don't mind; the bashing I do).

The life force that I am referring to is a type of spiritual energy (I honestly use this term more often) that is present within all living things (hence the reason why I was confused when Digital Dragon brought it up; mirrors obviously don't fall into this category), similar to qi or prana (to be clear, all objects, both living and nonliving have spiritual energy, but the "life force" specifically refers to the energy of living things). This life force, as a spiritual energy, not only serves as a bridge between the body, mind and spirit but also as a link between all living things (this concept lead to Carl Jung's concept of the collective unconscious).

In Wicca (more religions believe in this, but I will use Wicca as an example), this spiritual energy, because of its connection to other forces in the universe, can be manipulated and used into make changes in our lives. This manipulation of spiritual energy in order to cause change is called Witchcraft.

[Digital Dragon]

I brought it up because while the reflection would not contain spiritual energy, the glass might. I apologize if I incorrectly refered to this as "living energy", but I believe that all energy contains an awareness of its purpose. I am Wiccan and merely wanted to bring in a more spiritual aspect to the discussion. I was personally offended to hear it called gobbledygook and New Age bashing is not cool with me, either.

[Eris]

In Wicca (more religions believe in this, but I will use Wicca as an example), this spiritual energy, because of its connection to other forces in the universe, can be manipulated and used into make changes in our lives. This manipulation of spiritual energy in order to cause change is called Witchcraft.

Well, that's what I'm after. You say it's connected to the other "forces" of the universe. (I put forces in quotation marks because force is a well defined word in physics that does not mean what people intuitively take it to mean). This is excellent, as now we can do science.

Here is a series of experiments that should be able to deduce enough information to classify what sort of energy we are dealing with.

First, you must measure your energy capacity. Do this by spending as much energy as you can on some task that requires a known measure of energy. For example, heating water consumes roughly

Q = 4 * mass (in grams) * (temperature difference in C) Joules

And lifting an object consumes approximately

Q = 10 * (mass in kg) * (height in meters) Joules



Good, once you know your energy capacity, we need to measure the entropywiki of spiritual energy.

First you measure your body temperature. Then spend all of your energy as fast as possible, wait a short while for the heat to spread, and measure it again. Divide the energy capacity you've already found from the previous experiment with this temperature difference in Celsius, and you've got a measure of the entropy of spiritual energy!

This may not sound like much, but it is serious physics! If you know this number, you can compare it with the entropy of other forms of energy to determine what forms of energy it's useful to convert your spiritual energy to. Electricity for example has very low entropy, so unless spiritual energy is also very low, it may not be efficient to recharge your iPod with spiritual energy for example, but cooking noodles is almost certainly efficient as heat has very high entropy.

[Acnologia]

This one is hard, but just one of me is enough imo. Though isn't mirror just supposed to reflect yourself back at you? The idea of a "mirror world" is cool though.

[Eris]

Though isn't mirror just supposed to reflect yourself back at you? The idea of a "mirror world" is cool though.

That's a common sense argument.

[GameGeeks]

Fine, no common sense then. A mirror doesn't reflect you, it shows you your soul.

[Eris]

No, not "no common sense", no common sense arguments.

[GameGeeks]

Bah, all or nothing I say. Lets just kill common sense.

[wolfgirl90]

I brought it up because while the reflection would not contain spiritual energy, the glass might. I apologize if I incorrectly refered to this as "living energy", but I believe that all energy contains an awareness of its purpose. I am Wiccan and merely wanted to bring in a more spiritual aspect to the discussion. I was personally offended to hear it called gobbledygook and New Age bashing is not cool with me, either.

Ah, I thought that was what you meant. I knew what you were getting at; it was just a confusion of words, not overall philosophy, so there's no need to apologize.

As for it being called "gobbledygook", I am quite used to it, especially from people like Eris, so I kinda roll with it, not fight it as there really is no point. Forcing the definition on people doesn't help much, so roll with the punches.

This may not sound like much, but it is serious physics! If you know this number, you can compare it with the entropy of other forms of energy to determine what forms of energy it's useful to convert your spiritual energy to. Electricity for example has very low entropy, so unless spiritual energy is also very low, it may not be efficient to recharge your iPod with spiritual energy for example, but cooking noodles is almost certainly efficient as heat has very high entropy.

Hehe...funny indeed. However, as I was telling Ericgamer1, I am very much adapt at science. I major in engineering, so believe me, I understand physics, thank you, but I appreciate the lesson.

Not saying that science and Wicca can't mix, because they most certainly can (how could I major in a scientific discipline if they couldn't?), however, I know that this is not what you are trying to do; I know a sarcastic jab when I see one.

Though who knows. Maybe one could use their spiritual energy to cook noodles. I mean, even though energy and force both have more than one definition outside of physics, especially when I wasn't talking about physics, and one's stringent use or understanding of only one definition of the word could be interpreted as either an unwillingness or inability to delve into the metaphysical (metaphysics being an actual branch of philosophy, mind you), with all of one's personal problems and the problems of the world, one could TOTALLY tap into the energy of the universe and do something as mundane as cook noodles. "An it harm none, do what ye will", as they say.

[Eris]

It is your scientific duty to objectively study this energy! You have the ability to rip it from the clutches of the woo-woo mongers and turn it into proper science.

[Skylar1]

It is your scientific duty to objectively study this energy! You have the ability to rip it from the clutches of the woo-woo mongers and turn it into proper science.

This.
@wolfgirl90: There is absolutely no shame in making observations and testing one's hypothesis- that's how discoveries come about. And sometimes, from the most unexpected findings!

Don't go off a hunch, if you do that, you're doing it wrong. Rather, investigate your hunch and compare it to solid results from that. You never know, you could find out excatly what you were looking for, but even if you don't that's ok too, because at least then you're certain for fact that you weren't entirely correct. You effectively eliminate ALL doubt in one's mind about anything and everything.

[wolfgirl90]

It is your scientific duty to objectively study this energy! You have the ability to rip it from the clutches of the woo-woo mongers and turn it into proper science.

This.
@wolfgirl90: There is absolutely no shame in making observations and testing one's hypothesis- that's how discoveries come about. And sometimes, from the most unexpected findings!

Uh huh. I'll get right on that. I'll put that on my list right after flying a unicorn and obtaining pixie dust via a Smurf's butt. By the way, who the hell said anything about shame? I am not ashamed of anything. Again, not sure where you are getting that from (I guess if we are going to have lessons about observation, we can start with you).

Of course, the problem with objectivity in science is that bias is present not only in the person doing the observation but also in the people that the data is being presented to. As a Wiccan, I already have a strong bias of spiritual energy in that I believe in it based on my own personal observations, so turning around to observe this with complete objectivity would be rather impossible (as it always has been in the realm of science). And you two have a strong bias in that you don't believe in it and despite what either of you say, I am more than sure that nothing short of me becoming a firebender and fighting people with fire daggers that I spontaneously created from my fist is going to change your mind; you already felt the need to argue something you don't believe in, so trying to prove it to you now would be pointless (kinda the reason why I didn't even what to continue this discussion).

I mean, I could have sworn that one of the FIRST things that I said on this thread is that I DON'T (repeat DON'T) understand how life forces have ANYTHING to do with this thread. So why do you insist on dragging this out when I already said that it didn't make sense even to me, other than to continue AF's tradition of avid skepticism of anything outside of atheism?

As I was telling Digital Dragon, its rather pointless to attempt to have a discussion about Wicca with people who are already steadfast in their ways as far as metaphysics is concerned; unless someone is willing to open their mind, conversation goes nowhere, which is exactly what is going on here (and why I didn't want to elaborate much further on this with you). However, I believe that we are a bit off topic here. Aren't we supposed to be talking about something else? Something involving a mirror?