France Bans the" Burqa"

[Flah Blah]

Recently France implemented a law against people "which critics say stigmatises immigrants, bans people "from wearing, in a public place, garments designed to cover the face".

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...?section=world

Personally, I think France has got some balls. Thumbs up or thumbs down?

[Eris]

I think this is stupid. The argument basically goes that women are forced to wear these things, therefore, they should be banned. But that's clearly domestic abuse, and France like most other civilized countries already has domestic abuse laws that are perfectly capable of dealing with it, so there's no point in infringing on anyone's freedom to wear whatever head-gear they want to. This entire problem is the consequence of poor integration. And banning the symptom won't make the cause vanish, it will just erode all of our civil liberties.

I'll also eagerly await how they'll deal with the inevitability of people wearing a motorcycle helmet in public.

[Aku no Hikari]

I think this is stupid. The argument basically goes that women are forced to wear these things, therefore, they should be banned. But that's clearly domestic abuse, and France like most other civilized countries already has domestic abuse laws that are perfectly capable of dealing with it, so there's no point in infringing on anyone's freedom to wear whatever head-gear they want to. This entire problem is the consequence of poor integration. And banning the symptom won't make the cause vanish, it will just erode all of our civil liberties.

^ Couldn't agree more.

[3pleT]

I'm with them on this one, same reasons I was with that Draw Mohammad Day.

[*Tsuki*]

What if it's a helmet or a sweatshirt that has a zipper that goes all the way up your face?
Or even a mask?
What about a scarf? D:

[Flah Blah]

Basically, it's a sad day for ninjas in France.

[Sanosuke23]

So I take it there are no French winters so cold that a scarf or balaclava is necessary?

I'm with them on this one, same reasons I was with that Draw Mohammad Day.

So because you hate Islam and feel they should be attacked at every opportunity, then?

Draw Mohammad Day was about freedom of expression, and this law bans any sort of face covering in public, burqas included. The problem is, that it infringes on religious expression. As Eris mentioned, if it were a matter of domestic abuse there are already laws in place that could be brought to bear; this makes it illegal for women who, of their own free will, wish to observe and follow the tenets of their religion from even leaving their homes.

[Acnologia]

Basically, it's a sad day for ninjas in France.

Mind if I sig this? : D

I think people should be able to wear what they want, their clothes aren't harming anyone. They should ask the ones wearing them what they mean, why they wear them, and if they're comfortable not wearing them. Some women may not be comfortable not wearing it.

It's not originally abuse, but rather tradition. The women are to be modest, so they cover the face that could attract others.

[Wio]

Most likely the law was created as counter-fraud measure. Too many Frenchmen were being memorized by the eyes only to find a fuzzy face inside.

Actually, this is very similar to how one of my schools banned putting your hoody up, because it made it harder to identify students who were misbehaving.

[wolfgirl90]

Recently France implemented a law against people "which critics say stigmatises immigrants, bans people "from wearing, in a public place, garments designed to cover the face".

Well, to be fair, the law hasn't been implemented yet (although, the fact that it has voted on in the first place is rather troublesome). It has only been voted upon by the National Assembly. From there, it must pass in the Senate (the other house of the French Parliament) and THEN it has to go to the Constitutional Council (who will review the constitutionality of the law, hence why the article said that it might be difficult for the law to pass here) before going to the president. The French government is wacky, yes?

Anyway (after exposing how nerdy I am), I find it pretty hilarious (and more than a little hypocritical) that the French government is trying to combat women being forced to wear a certain article of clothing by forcing them NOT to wear it. So let me get this straight: they are dictating what Muslim women can wear because they believe that someone else is dictating what they should wear? Interesting, to say the least.

To make matters worse, this sentiment could easily be destroyed if they just TALKED to some of the Muslim women. Most of the Muslim population in France comes from Algeria, Morocco, Turkey and Tunisia, where the wearing of the burqa is not even required. While many of the women in these countries wear some form of conservative clothing, not all of them wear the burqa (its usually a personal choice), let alone actually being FORCED to wear it.

[DOOM!]

I disagree. Firstly, for the reasons Eris stated, and Secondly, I think this law has a rider that has something against black people wearing a bandana over their faces when they go robbing something.

[Furore]

I don't think they should ban the burqa completely as it is a traditional piece of attire for some people, but I do feel it should be banned from environments that should be secure like banks and areas containing people of importance. Australia has laws against wearing any clothing that masks the face in banks and some other, similar environments so I'm certainly not unhappy with how things work here. Though despite this, we still have some Australians wanting to ban it completely too as they feel that Islam is threatening the Australian way of life after seeing Muslim communities and getting hyped up by the media. The part I find funny though is that some other cultures/religious groups also live in similar clusters and they never seem to get singled out.

[-GAZKUL-]

if they want to wear them then i think they should be allowed, again its freedom of expression.

[3pleT]

So because you hate Islam and feel they should be attacked at every opportunity, then?

Nope. See, there's this one sect called Wahhabis, who feel like they have a right to come to the Western world and force their ways on it. So banning a burqa that's about as mandatory for worshiping Allah as the cross for worshiping Yahweh won't really present any problems for anyone, but the said Wahhabis, the one sect that is responsible for everything bad about Islam today, who believe that their beliefs are totally what Muhammad said, when they are, in fact, what Muhammad said, but not the Muhammad they were thinking of. Other than them, Islam is pretty much the religion of peace, so I have nothing against Islam specifically, but I do hate all the malevolent religions, cults and sects, such as Wahhabism and Scientology.

[Aku no Hikari]

Nope. See, there's this one sect called Wahhabis, who feel like they have a right to come to the Western world and force their ways on it. So banning a burqa that's about as mandatory for worshiping Allah as the cross for worshiping Yahweh won't really present any problems for anyone, but the said Wahhabis, the one sect that is responsible for everything bad about Islam today, who believe that their beliefs are totally what Muhammad said, when they are, in fact, what Muhammad said, but not the Muhammad they were thinking of. Other than them, Islam is pretty much the religion of peace, so I have nothing against Islam specifically, but I do hate all the malevolent religions, cults and sects, such as Wahhabism and Scientology.

I see your point, but I don't see how it's relevant to the banning of this "Burqa" thing; as Wahhabis are not the only Muslims who would want to wear it.

Sure, the Wahhabis are the only insurgent [butt]holes who make a big deal out of it, but then again, they make a big deal out of a WHOLE LOT of things (just ask someone who tried to live in Saudi Arabia if you want to know what I'm talking about) and it makes no sense to ban like 90% of Islamic teachings because of it.

Like Eris said, when it's a matter of domestic abuse, it should be treated as such. Otherwise, personal freedom is an ultimate right for every human.

There are better ways of dealing with this problem.

[3pleT]

I see your point, but I don't see how it's relevant to the banning of this "Burqa" thing; as Wahhabis are not the only Muslims who would want to wear it.

Sure, the Wahhabis are the only insurgent [butt]holes who make a big deal out of it, but then again, they make a big deal out of a WHOLE LOT of things (just ask someone who tried to live in Saudi Arabia if you want to know what I'm talking about) and it makes no sense to ban like 90% of Islamic teachings because of it.

Like Eris said, when it's a matter of domestic abuse, it should be treated as such. Otherwise, personal freedom is an ultimate right for every human.

There are better ways of dealing with this problem.

Oh, but you see, in most Balkan countries, obscuring one's face in public in any way is illegal for a good reason, and wherever it's not, it used to be, but only got legalized because the Muslims (mostly Wahhabis) insisted on it. The way I see it, they're simply undoing what Wahhabis accomplished.

[Alcmaeonid]

I think there's a major misapprehension loose in this thread; a lot of these women are not being forced to cover up their entire bodies, they've been brainwashed enough to want it of their own accord.

[Skylar1]

Restricting Self expression for fear of it leading to crime is the very definition of oppression.

And also, what people don't seem to realize, is that radical extremists use these sorts of legislative mishaps as fuel to add to their angry rhetoric, and further radicalize others.

Really dumb move on France's part.

[Saint Seiya]

Someones finally doing something against muslims, thank you allah

[miniPhil]

Reminds me of a law they tried to pass here banning clothing covering your head because of crime until someone pointed out that nuns have scarves over their heads. Like Eris said, are they really gunna fine people for wearing motorcycle helmets.

[Eris]

I think there's a major misapprehension loose in this thread; a lot of these women are not being forced to cover up their entire bodies, they've been brainwashed enough to want it of their own accord.

Much the same way Christian women are brainwashed into wanting to cover their boobs, I expect. Anyway, if actual brain washing is involved, most western countries have anti-sect laws that are fully capable of dealing with the root of the problem, instead of the symptoms which is what this ban attempts to attack.

[Skylar1]

Much the same way Christian women are brainwashed into wanting to cover their boobs, I expect. Anyway, if actual brain washing is involved, most western countries have anti-sect laws that are fully capable of dealing with the root of the problem, which is what this ban attempts to attack.

True. But wouldn't it have to apply to All religions in that case? You can't just single out one, you'd have to take them all on as a whole.

So France is still at fault.

[-GAZKUL-]

yet another country succeeds in pissing off thye muslim world.

[Eris]

True. But wouldn't it have to apply to All religions in that case? You can't just single out one, you'd have to take them all on as a whole.

So France is still at fault.

Actually, a quite important sentence fragment fell out of my previous post, which made it sound like I agreed with the ban which I do not. But you're quite right.

[Alcmaeonid]

Much the same way Christian women are brainwashed into wanting to cover their boobs, I expect. Anyway, if actual brain washing is involved, most western countries have anti-sect laws that are fully capable of dealing with the root of the problem, instead of the symptoms which is what this ban attempts to attack.

So it is not brainwashing because our laws do not recognise it as such, and because Western culture has what you consider to be similarly flawed norms? I was merely pointing this out because the suggestion of having the laws against domestic abuse take care of the issue is a little silly. Good luck trying to prove that these women are actually being forced.