Dubs Versus Subs

[Diocletian]

Not this debate again. They are both good. It just depends on the effort. 4Kids is not bad. It had to make it 4 KIDS. It's a kids show in Japan and in America/elsewhere maybe a 10-14 year old might watch it.


I prefer dubs because I buy my DVD's except on the occasional "I'm never going to find this anywhere, illegal is the only way" scenario.

[WitchHunter]

When it comes to fansubs, I do not watch them (nor support those who are involved as fansubbing is destorying the anime industry from the inside out; those who do not think so, ask a former worker of Geneon). One, the subtitles are often inaccurate and two, they are distracting (I am way too fluent in Japanese to want subtitles).

Not trying to argue, since saying that I'm "not fluent" in Japanese would be an understatement, but I would think the accuracy would just depend on the fansubing group. If they have a translator who's fluent in Japanese and English the sub should be accurate, and if they don't it won't be. Granted, a company can hire a good translator, but I think there must be at least a few fansubs that are just as accurate as official subs.
Also, some (though by no means all) fansubs seem to have had a bit more effort put into typesetting and such then official subs.

We have different broadcast standards from the Japanese.

Or, perhaps more accurately, "We have broadcast standards." From what I've seen of Japanese television they can do pretty much whatever they want so long as it will get ratings.

[wolfgirl90]

Not trying to argue, since saying that I'm "not fluent" in Japanese would be an understatement, but I would think the accuracy would just depend on the fansubing group. If they have a translator who's fluent in Japanese and English the sub should be accurate, and if they don't it won't be. Granted, a company can hire a good translator, but I think there must be at least a few fansubs that are just as accurate as official subs.
Also, some (though by no means all) fansubs seem to have had a bit more effort put into typesetting and such then official subs.


Or, perhaps more accurately, "We have broadcast standards." From what I've seen of Japanese television they can do pretty much whatever they want so long as it will get ratings.

I agree that the accuracy of the fansub does depend on the group doing the translation, however, its kind of a broken argument for one to say that they prefer fansubs because they seem to be more accurate than a dub if they do not understand Japanese in the first place. Anime companies do not just hire people who are fluent in Japanese and English, but people who were trained to translate (or even interprete, since they may have to translate using speech). One of the biggest mistakes I have seen from some translaters is that they assume that as long they have a Japanese dictionary nearby, then they can translate something accurately. Both linguistic and cultural understanding are needed in order to translate properly, which is not present in most fansubbers.

The Japanese DO have standards for television. I do not know any country that does not have standards for their media. Japan just has different standards and handles broadcasting differently than America.

[Miss Moonlight]

Well, i'm not an elitist when it comes to anime; if the dubbing is good enough (the best i've seen was in FMA), then I don't mind it. The only time I prefer subbing is when I want to watch it in it's original form and with the original voice actors.

[WitchHunter]

I agree that the accuracy of the fansub does depend on the group doing the translation, however, its kind of a broken argument for one to say that they prefer fansubs because they seem to be more accurate than a dub if they do not understand Japanese in the first place. Anime companies do not just hire people who are fluent in Japanese and English, but people who were trained to translate (or even interprete, since they may have to translate using speech). One of the biggest mistakes I have seen from some translaters is that they assume that as long they have a Japanese dictionary nearby, then they can translate something accurately. Both linguistic and cultural understanding are needed in order to translate properly, which is not present in most fansubbers.

The Japanese DO have standards for television. I do not know any country that does not have standards for their media. Japan just has different standards and handles broadcasting differently than America.

I see, thanks. And I know the Japanese must have standards, even if I can't see them. It was meant as a joke, since some of what they put on television would earn a lawsuit in just about any other country.

[CrystalAce]

Clearly, subs are way better than Dubs as the subs keep the original aspect of the anime while in dubs the background music are usually quite different and inappropiate. The dubs have also got a bit different dialogues than the original Japanese version translated in english while the subs are quite accurate translation. There are several other reasons as mentioned above but subs kinda makes it feel original and that's what we want to see.

[wolfgirl90]

Clearly, subs are way better than Dubs as the subs keep the original aspect of the anime while in dubs the background music are usually quite different and inappropiate. The dubs have also got a bit different dialogues than the original Japanese version translated in english while the subs are quite accurate translation. There are several other reasons as mentioned above but subs kinda makes it feel original and that's what we want to see.

That is a generalization of SOME dubs, especially ones done by 4Kids. Not all have changes in their music since the majority of dubs are released exclusively on DVD. Only a very small amount of dubbed anime ever gets on television and only a few of those are ever edited.

When it comes to dialogue, like I said before, unless you are fluent in Japanese, you can not honestly tell whether or not the dub is accurate. Just because there are differences between the dialogue used the dub and the dialogue shown in the subbed version does not mean that the dub is inaccurate, especially if its a fansub. In most anime, the overall dialogue MUST change in order to match the timing of mouth flaps (it is almost impossible to have a direct translation and still match timing). However, the meaning behind the dialogue won't change.

[Diocletian]

Clearly, subs are way better than Dubs as the subs keep the original aspect of the anime while in dubs the background music are usually quite different and inappropiate. The dubs have also got a bit different dialogues than the original Japanese version translated in english while the subs are quite accurate translation. There are several other reasons as mentioned above but subs kinda makes it feel original and that's what we want to see.

Because they don't use honorifics & such? The original would be completely misunderstood. Are you able to understand a joke or pun based on a Japanese celebrity? More likely than not no. The dubbers are just trying to make it so you can understand it.

[Gjallarhorn]

Are you able to understand a joke or pun based on a Japanese celebrity? More likely than not no. The dubbers are just trying to make it so you can understand it.

A good example of this is Bobobo. Bobobo was a parody of a lot of things in Japanese culture, and the dub of it left most(not all) of the pop-culture and anime/manga references and satire. Of course, most viewers didn't get any of these jokes, and just dismissed it as being a completely wacky kids' show.

[jtdlives]

Ratings have a lot to do with what networks are going to show on tv and how they censor anime. I know a lot of parents who don't think that it is ok that I let my daughter watch Naruto, because they think it is to violent. Can you imagine how many more viewers they would lose if they didn't censor it. I mean in the uncensored version Hakuu pukes up buckets of blood after Kakashi does lighting blade on him. Same with kid shows, I mean me and my daughter watched Hare and Gu on DVD and this is a kid show in Japan and the mother is an alcholic and the dad a pervert, even though this show was funny and weird. They couldn't show that in the states as a kid show. It just wouldn't work. 4kids just made a mistake when it picked One Piece as a show on it's line up. It was way to violent to be on Sunday mornings so they had to change it and by doing so they ruined the show. I personally like dubs and I like to watch my anime on DVD so that it isn't so censored, but if you are going to watch your anime on TV you will just have to deal with the show being cesored a little bit.

[Ωmega]

A good example of this is Bobobo. Bobobo was a parody of a lot of things in Japanese culture, and the dub of it left most(not all) of the pop-culture and anime/manga references and satire. Of course, most viewers didn't get any of these jokes, and just dismissed it as being a completely wacky kids' show.

Aha, dont forget Excel Saga ;3


Me personally, subs. I notice that most shows end up taking out or altering information so that it fits the dub, so they keep it and the dub work is just horrible. Ive seen maybe a hand full of dubs that kept almost all of the information in the show with good voice syncing.

[Princely Dreaming Doll]

When it comes to dialogue, like I said before, unless you are fluent in Japanese, you can not honestly tell whether or not the dub is accurate. Just because there are differences between the dialogue used the dub and the dialogue shown in the subbed version does not mean that the dub is inaccurate, especially if its a fansub. In most anime, the overall dialogue MUST change in order to match the timing of mouth flaps (it is almost impossible to have a direct translation and still match timing). However, the meaning behind the dialogue won't change.

You can still listen to the way the Japanese speak and learn how to speak their vowels over time.
In Naruto... America they say Narrr-ooto.[I split it out the way they say it...they stress way to much on the "r" in his name]
Listen to the way the Japanese say it, its more like: Na[with a distinct uh sound]-roo-to
Sasuke in America they Sauce-kay[like he is a sauce]
In Japan its more like: Sus-kay
One of the worse two worse offenders: Zabuza and Orochimaru
In America its Zabu[putting to much stress on the U making a oo sound]-za[making za sound lik a saw]
In Japan it would be more like Za[with an aw quality to the a]-bu[with an softer oo]-za[with a zuh at the end]
In America its Ori-chi-maru
In Japan its Oro[with a distinct "or" "o" sound like if you were playing hangman and you said an a or o]-chi-maru

Not only that, but non of the voices match the characters in the dubbed version of the Naruto show. Orochimaru sounds like a grandmother.

Japan is a universal language and one word can mean several things and their vowels are a lot different then ours.

[WitchHunter]

Because they don't use honorifics & such? The original would be completely misunderstood. Are you able to understand a joke or pun based on a Japanese celebrity? More likely than not no. The dubbers are just trying to make it so you can understand it.

Admittedly most people won't get the Japanese pop-culture, but taking away the honorifics does lose some of the original meaning for those of us who do understand them. That said, Japanese honorifics in an English dub probably wouldn't sound too good.

[Memento Mori]

You can still listen to the way the Japanese speak and learn how to speak their vowels over time.
In Naruto... America they say Narrr-ooto.[I split it out the way they say it...they stress way to much on the "r" in his name]
Listen to the way the Japanese say it, its more like: Na[with a distinct uh sound]-roo-to
Sasuke in America they Sauce-kay[like he is a sauce]
In Japan its more like: Sus-kay
One of the worse two worse offenders: Zabuza and Orochimaru
In America its Zabu[putting to much stress on the U making a oo sound]-za[making za sound lik a saw]
In Japan it would be more like Za[with an aw quality to the a]-bu[with an softer oo]-za[with a zuh at the end]
In America its Ori-chi-maru
In Japan its Oro[with a distinct "or" "o" sound like if you were playing hangman and you said an a or o]-chi-maru

Not only that, but non of the voices match the characters in the dubbed version of the Naruto show. Orochimaru sounds like a grandmother.

Japan is a universal language and one word can mean several things and their vowels are a lot different then ours.

The voice actors aren't going to put the same emphasis on names in the same spots because they're not the same voice actors.

Of course it's going to be different, I don't see why it's such a big deal, if you can understand it, WHY complain about dubs?

[Diocletian]

Most VA's know nothing about Japanese & do it for a quick buck. They go into the studio w/ no prior knowledge. Plus, you can't expect a 200+ series to be dubbed perfectly. It's just a vowel.

[Princely Dreaming Doll]

The voice actors aren't going to put the same emphasis on names in the same spots because they're not the same voice actors.
Of course it's going to be different, I don't see why it's such a big deal, if you can understand it, WHY complain about dubs?

Because I don't like the sound of it. I grew use to the way the Japanese said it and I actually like the way the Japanese say it.
I understand they aren't the same voice actors, but I would like the studio to take some time and study the way the Japanese say it and do it.

[wolfgirl90]

You can still listen to the way the Japanese speak and learn how to speak their vowels over time.
In Naruto... America they say Narrr-ooto.[I split it out the way they say it...they stress way to much on the "r" in his name]
Listen to the way the Japanese say it, its more like: Na[with a distinct uh sound]-roo-to
Sasuke in America they Sauce-kay[like he is a sauce]
In Japan its more like: Sus-kay
One of the worse two worse offenders: Zabuza and Orochimaru
In America its Zabu[putting to much stress on the U making a oo sound]-za[making za sound lik a saw]
In Japan it would be more like Za[with an aw quality to the a]-bu[with an softer oo]-za[with a zuh at the end]
In America its Ori-chi-maru
In Japan its Oro[with a distinct "or" "o" sound like if you were playing hangman and you said an a or o]-chi-maru

Not only that, but non of the voices match the characters in the dubbed version of the Naruto show. Orochimaru sounds like a grandmother.

Japan is a universal language and one word can mean several things and their vowels are a lot different then ours.

Knowing how to pronounce vowels in Japanese is one thing; knowing how to speak the language fluently is another. A person saying that they watch subs because they like the sound of the Japanese language is okay (although if its illegal subs, then its a pretty lame excuse) but to say that they only watch subs because they are more accurate than the dub is pretty stupid if that person does not understand Japanese in the first place and can't honestly tell the difference (the reason why they choose to watch something with with subtitles is because they don't understand Japanese).

English voice actors are told how to pronounce the names of the characters beforehand. Voice acting is their JOB; they don't just do it for a "quick buck". When they get a role, they do a lot of research on the character. Now, since these are English-speaking voice actors, they are not going to say the names of the characters the same way as the Japanese do. Even those that know Japanese are going to say names differently. If you listen to the English dub of some anime, you can the subtle difference between how one voice actor says a name from another.

From the examples you have given (and I have watched Naruto in both Japanese and English), the voice actors said the names correctly but without the subtle nuances that are found when pronouncing vowels in Japanese(i.e, equal stress on syllables, soft "u" after certain consonants,etc), which is something that you can expect from native-English speaking voice actors (I am fluent in Japanese, but whenever I speak it to the Japanese students at my school, they say I have an accent). Although, I have never heard an American pronounce Orochimaru's name that way, your Japanese pronounciation of Orochimaru's name is slightly off (its pronouced "O-ro-chi-ma-ru"). And I have yet to meet an English-speaking person who pronouces Kakashi's name properly (I always hear it pronouced "Ka-KA-shi" instead of "Ka-ka-shi", however, I really don't care).

When it comes to the voices, anime companies in America do not have the money (and they are constantly LOSING money instead of gaining it) to hire a lot of voice actors (ones that might actually fit characters) and there aren't that many anime voice actors in America to begin with, versus the huge pool of actors that Japan has (which is why you will hear Johnny Yong Bosch's voice in 3 different anime on Adult Swim in one night). And I do not know why you think that Orochimaru sounds like a grandmother in the dub. His voice in the dub is quite deeper than his Japanese voice, since he is voiced by a man (Steven Blum, who has a deep voice) in English and a woman (Kujira) in Japanese.

[Android 19-90]

This same old debate that has lost all it's point.
Anyone who doesn't care either way, Doesn't care.
Anyone is an A-hole about Subs, nothing will stop them they are on a higher pedestal and they REFUSE to come down.

I myself could really care either way because I watch anime when I have the access or the money and I'm a cheap Bastardo, so I REALLY couldn't careless unless there is it's mediocre AND has a central character with a REALLY annoying voice. Or if I don't feel much like reading subtitles.

[Memento Mori]

Because I don't like the sound of it. I grew use to the way the Japanese said it and I actually like the way the Japanese say it.
I understand they aren't the same voice actors, but I would like the studio to take some time and study the way the Japanese say it and do it.

Whoa, you don't like the English voice-actors because they don't sound Japanese enough even though their trying to make the ENGLISH version?!

 

Not everyone has the same accent. They aren't going to sound anymore 'Japanese' just because they research it.

Get the pole out of your butt, and just watch the subs. Don't complain about the dubs just because they don't sound 'Japanese' enough, because not everyone has time to search for subs.

Do I have to say it again?

They're not the same voice actors. They're going to sound different.

Besides, it's just one little letter that's off, I don't see how that is a bad thing.

[VraieEsprit]

What your talking about is anime that airs on television, not dubs themselves. If you buy a dubbed anime on DVD it will usually be unedited.

Actually, a huge number of anime are edited in translation. There's a lot of censorship that goes on even in so called uncut versions...the thing that springs immediately to mind is the changed wording in one of the Yuugi scenes when in the original Amiboshi says that Nuriko's scream sounds like a "homo being strangled" and in the dub he says "its the worst sound I've ever heard."

Not being American, also, I dislike American voices being given to Japanese characters. It's nothing against Americans, it's just that not being a native of the USA means that, obviously, it means I can hear the American accents as 'different' to the English ones I'm surrounded by. I watch a lot of American TV, and it's not an issue then in the slightest. But it sounds weird to me when put in a Japanese cultural show setting. (I guess American viewers maybe don't notice it...but for those people imagine if it was dubbed by British voices and see how weird you'd find it! LOL )

English dub VAs truly cannot pronounce the names correctly. I don't blame them for that. It's difficult to pronounce foreign names correctly in any language, even more so if you can't speak the other language. Just thinking of how the Japanese seiyuu pronounce things like "Charlie", "Leonard" "Francis" etc in Angelique is proof of that fact. But it can be grating. Beeyahkuhyah is one of the worst I've heard - 'Tusky" for Tasuki and "Nureeko and Chicheery" for Nuriko and Chichiri are also pretty horrendous :S It's all very well saying it "doesn't matter", but I guess that depends how sensitive your ears are to those kinds of things. Mine are pretty sensitive. Probably because I've spent my whole life having my name mis-pronounced...I feel that accuracy in those instances matters a good deal.

However.

The main reason why I don't watch anime in English dub is because a lot of stuff is culturally lost in translation. I don't judge anyone for watching in English if they prefer it that way - it's an individual choice everyone has to make depending on their own preferences. But I speak enough Japanese to hear cultural things like the modes of speech characters use, the types of address they each utilise, the honorifics, etc = clues to their relationships and standing and so on and so forth.

The one that springs to mind is Erenfried in NeoAngelique changing from calling himself Boku to Watashi at some point in the second season. That's completely lost in translation. Ditto Ryuuki in Saiunkoku Monogatari trying to remember to use "Watashi" instead of "Yo" when he's trying to conceal the fact he's Emperor. Those things don't come through in an English dub.

I'm afraid too that I heard Ishida called "Uryuu" by a random classmate in a snippet of English Bleach and that was enough for me to turn it off. Knowing that it's so against his character to allow anyone to call him by his first name so familiarly, and knowing that in the original he complains about it on at least two occasions, it made me feel that the English dub had already butchered his character just by trying to 'westernise' the language. It made the fact they'd totally changed his lines a secondary factor :S

Things are better in original, I think, no matter what that original happens to be I don't want to hear someone else's interpretation of what x character said to y, after all. I want to hear what x actually said to y. And often there's a big difference in those two things.

Oh yes, I'm also a big fan of several Seiyuu and how all-encompassing the role of the seiyuu is - songs, shows, anime, you name it...it's hard in contrast to form an interest in a faceless person who just does a voice as opposed to someone who in Japan is a unique kind of celebrity If you're not into seiyuu, I can see how you can say it's 'just a different voice'. But if you are into seiyuu, you'll understand how it's different from being just a voice. It's a whole concept which doesn't exist in the western world.

What drives me crazy is the attitude, though, some people have on both sides of the divide. Preferring subs to dubs does not make anyone stuck up, just as preferring dubs to subs doesn't make anyone stupid. Everyone has their own reasons for feeling the way they do and that's why both exist.

Personally I'd rather watch raw Japanese than an English dub - and have often done so. But that's my preference, and I've given my reasons for it. I read Japanese manga and some of the things I read have never had an English translation at all. If nothing else, it's helped challenge me to improve my Japanese more and more as time's gone on

(the reason why they choose to watch something with with subtitles is because they don't understand Japanese)

On the contrary, I speak enough Japanese to watch raws and I submit lyrics to the AL site so I've got a good level of the language to be working with. But I often watch with subs. Why? So I don't have to concentrate on every single word said. If a sub is wrong, I'll generally notice it and then twitch about it for a couple of scenes. But if the subbing is good, then it's nice not to have to concentrate so hard on watching the show.

I will watch raws and have some series straight from Japan on DVD which only have Japanese subtitles :P but it's wrong to assume only people who don't speak any Japanese use subs.

Vraie

[WitchHunter]

Actually, a huge number of anime are edited in translation. There's a lot of censorship that goes on even in so called uncut versions...the thing that springs immediately to mind is the changed wording in one of the Yuugi scenes when in the original Amiboshi says that Nuriko's scream sounds like a "homo being strangled" and in the dub he says "its the worst sound I've ever heard."

Well, if I'm aiming for the most accurate translation I watch subs anyway, since of course, as you said, some things just don't translate. And I suppose I can understand their reasoning behind changing that line. I don't know what it's like in Japan or England, but in the US you can never, ever offend anyone, because that would be Wrong (yes, capital 'W'), and may result in someone filing a lawsuit so that they can feel better about themselves.

[overwatch]

I watch which ever works the best.
Sometimes the sub is far better and clearer than the dub and other times the dub is better. I have no problem reading subtitles and if the story is delivered best through them then I will read them. Many times though I will admit, I watch the dub because its easier, but I don't discount the sub nor limit myself to one or the other.

Take Ghost in the Shell Innocence (2nd film) the sub for that makes little to no sense half the time, whilst the dub does. Clearly one has been done better than the other and conveys the story better - ergo I pick that.
Seeing it original without either would be the ideal, but I have no understanding of the language and tend to be rather poor with other languages - plus I have no driving pressure to really learn it at this point in time

[VraieEsprit]

Well, if I'm aiming for the most accurate translation I watch subs anyway, since of course, as you said, some things just don't translate. And I suppose I can understand their reasoning behind changing that line. I don't know what it's like in Japan or England, but in the US you can never, ever offend anyone, because that would be Wrong (yes, capital 'W'), and may result in someone filing a lawsuit so that they can feel better about themselves.

In the UK it's the general rule that if you're not offending someone you're probably doing it wrong...

Er, no. Kidding.

But we do have a tendency to make jokes about anything, the more controversial the better. Sadly the trend is being trampled by that evil thing known as Political Correctness, but its still alive in there somewhere

I understand too why they changed the line, but I still don't like that they did. There are a few glosses on Nuriko's sexuality in the dub (though it's impossible to gloss completely). I don't know if they would've done the same had it been UK done (these days, perhaps, sadly) but I'm not interested in a story that's been rewritten to pander to the overly sensitive Western censors...

Vraie

[Kanjoudakai_Ira]

There are SOME dubs which are better,like, Hellsing,or Shaman King. But i think other anime sound horrible in english =/
So i'll go for the subs.

[MoroDashi]

Hmm.. I don't really mind. I think I like subs better. Although it may set the concentration off the picture, it's still possible to see and read. With dubs you might miss a few words and not understand it that much. Sometimes it's better to have subs just for the 'originality' of the show. And you can learn new words in that language using subs. That's how I got to learn basics of Japanese!