Dubs Versus Subs

[DemonsRevenge]

I like subbed, i can read fast so i stilll see exactly what im watching on the screen.....
and i always watched dubbed pokemon and dbz because i never new about ANIME back when they first came here... plus goku sounds like a girl on Jap dub. AND LAWLZ they make riceballs into subway ahaah that is so lawlz!

[wolfgirl90]

Things are better in original, I think, no matter what that original happens to be I don't want to hear someone else's interpretation of what x character said to y, after all. I want to hear what x actually said to y. And often there's a big difference in those two things.

Oh yes, I'm also a big fan of several Seiyuu and how all-encompassing the role of the seiyuu is - songs, shows, anime, you name it...it's hard in contrast to form an interest in a faceless person who just does a voice as opposed to someone who in Japan is a unique kind of celebrity If you're not into seiyuu, I can see how you can say it's 'just a different voice'. But if you are into seiyuu, you'll understand how it's different from being just a voice. It's a whole concept which doesn't exist in the western world.

What drives me crazy is the attitude, though, some people have on both sides of the divide. Preferring subs to dubs does not make anyone stuck up, just as preferring dubs to subs doesn't make anyone stupid. Everyone has their own reasons for feeling the way they do and that's why both exist.

Different interpretation are going to happen whenever something is translated no matter what happens. Even I translate something from Japanese to English and you translate the same thing, we are going to get different results. They may mean the same thing but they won't be EXACTLY the same.

When it comes to English voice actors, despite me being fluent in Japanese (and thus having a sensitive ear to pitch) I am VERY forgiving when it comes to the mispronunciations that often occur with Japanese words and names in dub. I can say the names correctly but that because I have 5 years of Japanese language study under my belt. There are so many nuances to the Japanese language, so having any expectation to get the names right is going to wasted. Sure, the VAs are taught how to say the names properly but they are not Japanese. They could study Japanese so that they can use the right pitch and accent but anime distributors (and the VAs themselves) do not have the time or the money to do such a thing.

Japanese voice actors, seiyuu, do a lot more and are basically celebrities in Japan (and when I say voice actors, I mean more than just anime voice actors). Japan produces 60% of the animated series in the world, which is why being a voice actor in Japan can be a career, not to mention the video games, television shows, movies and radio shows that need voice actors (especially since Japan needs voice actors for the large amount of foreign television that they have). In the United States, there are only so many shows that need voice actors and the US makes money from other forms of entertainment instead of cartoons.

Yes, prefering subs over dubs does not make one stuck up, however, there are people who believe that watching anime in Japanese is the ONLY way to watch it and these people ("anime elitetists") are the ones who are stuck up. Having dubs is the backbone of the foreign ("outside Japan") anime industry. The biggest profits come from the anime that make it on television (which is only a few). Some "anime elitetists" watch subs because they believe that they are the "purest" form of the show (which to me sounds stupid; its a cartoon, for goodness sake). That's sorta okay but to watch fansubs because of this "reason" is stupid since fansubs (ALL of them) are illegal.

[WitchHunter]

That's sorta okay but to watch fansubs because of this "reason" is stupid since fansubs (ALL of them) are illegal.

I don't want to start an endless debate on this, since it all comes down to opinion, but 'illegal' doesn't always mean 'wrong', nor does the legal status of fansubs affect their quality.

[Memento Mori]

I don't want to start an endless debate on this, since it all comes down to opinion, but 'illegal' doesn't always mean 'wrong', nor does the legal status of fansubs affect their quality.

It's still wrong because it takes away from the true anime industry.

I think what you meant to say was just because it's illegal doesn't mean everyone's not going to do it anyway.

[WitchHunter]

It's still wrong because it takes away from the true anime industry.

I think what you meant to say was just because it's illegal doesn't mean everyone's not going to do it anyway.

No, I meant what I said. I for one believe that fansubs are acceptable in most circumstances. When official translations become affordable and are released in a timely fashion I may change my mind. But it's all opinion, so arguing is pointless.

[Diocletian]

Fan subs DO ruin the anime industry. The DVD's don't cost much to make, but the dubs do. How would you like it if they went around taking your CD's or taking the way you dress from you. It's stealing & you should be ashamed for downloading it.

If it's illegal it's bad. Why else would it not be allowed?

[Memento Mori]

No, I meant what I said. I for one believe that fansubs are acceptable in most circumstances. When official translations become affordable and are released in a timely fashion I may change my mind. But it's all opinion, so arguing is pointless.

Oh, well, if you meant what you said...

You're wrong. Sorry.

Like I said, it's STILL WRONG to watch illegal fansubs.

It takes away from the anime industry.

Also like I said, it may be illegal and WRONG, but it doesn't mean people still won't do it because they can't get in trouble.

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

Fan subs DO ruin the anime industry. The DVD's don't cost much to make, but the dubs do. How would you like it if they went around taking your CD's or taking the way you dress from you. It's stealing & you should be ashamed for downloading it.

If it's illegal it's bad. Why else would it not be allowed?

Let's not kid ourselves. The Anime Industry is killing the Anime Industry. No one is going to wait a year to catch Naruto/Bleach/Whatever episodes if they can find them on the interwebs a week after they air. It would be entirely possible to fix this by having a translation company working with a production company to sub a show for English-speaking audiences and put it on an ad-supported internet and/or cable network simultaneously to the Japanese release of the episode. It's also technically possible to do Dubs this way. The business model is there, and it works (see: Hulu), but no one has pulled their head out of their rectum far enough to do it. You don't beat piracy by whining about it, you out compete them for audiences.

[Doom85]

Let's not kid ourselves. The Anime Industry is killing the Anime Industry. No one is going to wait a year to catch Naruto/Bleach/Whatever episodes if they can find them on the interwebs a week after they air. It would be entirely possible to fix this by having a translation company working with a production company to sub a show for English-speaking audiences and put it on an ad-supported internet and/or cable network simultaneously to the Japanese release of the episode. It's also technically possible to do Dubs this way. The business model is there, and it works (see: Hulu), but no one has pulled their head out of their rectum far enough to do it. You don't beat piracy by whining about it, you out compete them for audiences.

Except Viz is already doing that with Naruto, and Funimation has one anime (don't remember name) doing that as well. Companies are taking steps, but fans often assume they're not and just ignore it. The fact that people were actually mad at Dattebayo for dropping Naruto (because they knew Viz would be subbing them a week after the episodes air) speaks volumes.

Technically, it's the JAPANESE side that's messing with this. The American side would love to make this possible, but Japan constantly increasing the price of licenses and such makes it difficult for the American side. For example, Rebuild of Evangelion would probably sell quite well over here, but the company who gets it would be taking a big risk considering how much they're asking.

And whoever said anime isn't affordable nowadays, you must be joking. Like 98-99% of anime is available in affordable boxsets (a lot are now being released straight to boxset nowadays, no single volumes). Compare to what we had to pay in the 90's, and complaining about prices just makes people sound pathetic.

Also, people in the anime industry have flat out said they don't mind people who watch fansubs and then buy the show when it comes out. It's those who exclusively watch via fansub (or read manga via scanlation) that are the problem. So the "people are impatient" argument doesn't even really make sense. Okay, you've seen the show, then buy the DVDs! Generally, if the person has a good conscience about this sort of thing, he'll watch the fansubs and buy the DVDs when they come out. The person who watches fansubs and doesn't intend to EVER buy has no right to complain about anything. He was never going to contribute to the system, so why should we care what he wants?

Some of these people do have legit reasons, they might not have the money, or other reasons (I know one guy online who moves constantly because of his job, so having too many DVDs would be an unwelcome burden). But a good deal of people can afford/own DVDs, but don't, and I have no sympathy for these people.

Anime is a product intended to be supported financially. Don't delude yourself (not you, MP2000, just the general audience) into thinking that it's not, or that the creators are just happy that people have seen their show (the Excel Saga director BEGGING people not to steal his show kinda kills that idea).

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

Except Viz is already doing that with Naruto, and Funimation has one anime (don't remember name) doing that as well. Companies are taking steps, but fans often assume they're not and just ignore it. The fact that people were actually mad at Dattebayo for dropping Naruto (because they knew Viz would be subbing them a week after the episodes air) speaks volumes.

Technically, it's the JAPANESE side that's messing with this. The American side would love to make this possible, but Japan constantly increasing the price of licenses and such makes it difficult for the American side. For example, Rebuild of Evangelion would probably sell quite well over here, but the company who gets it would be taking a big risk considering how much they're asking.

And whoever said anime isn't affordable nowadays, you must be joking. Like 98-99% of anime is available in affordable boxsets (a lot are now being released straight to boxset nowadays, no single volumes). Compare to what we had to pay in the 90's, and complaining about prices just makes people sound pathetic.

Also, people in the anime industry have flat out said they don't mind people who watch fansubs and then buy the show when it comes out. It's those who exclusively watch via fansub (or read manga via scanlation) that are the problem. So the "people are impatient" argument doesn't even really make sense. Okay, you've seen the show, then buy the DVDs! Generally, if the person has a good conscience about this sort of thing, he'll watch the fansubs and buy the DVDs when they come out. The person who watches fansubs and doesn't intend to EVER buy has no right to complain about anything. He was never going to contribute to the system, so why should we care what he wants?

Some of these people do have legit reasons, they might not have the money, or other reasons (I know one guy online who moves constantly because of his job, so having too many DVDs would be an unwelcome burden). But a good deal of people can afford/own DVDs, but don't, and I have no sympathy for these people.

Anime is a product intended to be supported financially. Don't delude yourself (not you, MP2000, just the general audience) into thinking that it's not, or that the creators are just happy that people have seen their show (the Excel Saga director BEGGING people not to steal his show kinda kills that idea).

Didn't know about it because I don't pay much attention to animu.

It's still in the length of time that most FanSubbers can pump out an episode, so it's not really what I'm talking about but it's probably enough the discourage people from getting fansubs. And Viz actually hasn't done it yet.

[Cielo Rosso]

I prefer the original over dubs.
Though there are some dubs that are done pretty well.

[WitchHunter]

I do buy some anime, I own several series and movies that are good enough to re-watch every so often. But buying DVD's to watch a show once is impractical and expensive. It's the 21st century, we have the internet, it's time to adapt. FUNimation has started, as Doom85 said. The show is called Shikabane Hime, by the way, and FUNi is streaming it online for free.

[wolfgirl90]

You may have a different opinion about whether or not fansubs are "right" or not but that does not change the fact that they break local (whatever country you are in), Japanese and international copyright laws and are illegal. While there have been some positive contributions from fansubs, I don't think that it is worth it to risk going to a federal prison because you wanted to watch a Japanese cartoon.

Now, I believe that something has to be done about fansubs, since the popularity of anime has been going up but the anime industry is being hurt so badly that anime distributors can barely market their product (to the point where a DVD can cost $30 or more) and one anime distributor, Geneon, has already gone out of business. I don't think that hunting down fansubbers is going to solve the problem since:
1. It cost a lot of money to do something like this (again, something that shouldn't have to be done for a cartoon).
2. Because fansubbers have already decided to do this illegal practice anyway, so telling them to stop is only going to last so long.
I think that the best thing that anime companies and their distributors can do at this point would be to have official subtitled anime on websites. Anime distributors wouldn't be able to make dubs at the same time since editing and dubbing would still have to be done.

The parent companies would make money and the anime distributors would make money...well, if the viewers buy the merchandise for the anime itself, that is.

[sarcastinated]

Its not about the cleavage. There was no cleavage to begin with. Its the tampering with the originality of the show.
I want to read, I want to learn.
I like learning and I like reading.

I know this is a month old argument, but when I read this I twitched a little bit. Watching anime to learn something would be a lot like us sending Tiny Toons or the Animaniacs elsewhere and expecting people to learn from it. Do you get what I'm saying? Although I respect the very noble idea of trying to learn from every experience, it's meant as entertainment, not as a teaching tool.

That said: I prefer subs. There's something about the voice actors on dubbed anime that make me want to deafen myself with pointy objects.

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

You may have a different opinion about whether or not fansubs are "right" or not but that does not change the fact that they break local (whatever country you are in), Japanese and international copyright laws and are illegal. While there have been some positive contributions from fansubs, I don't think that it is worth it to risk going to a federal prison because you wanted to watch a Japanese cartoon.

Stealing media off the interwebs has always been high gain/extremely low risk. Basically, no one ever gets caught. Is it immoral? I don't know... is buying used anime immoral? In both cases, the distributor gets no money. If you see one as immoral and not the other, you've confused morality and legality.

Now, I believe that something has to be done about fansubs, since the popularity of anime has been going up but the anime industry is being hurt so badly that anime distributors can barely market their product (to the point where a DVD can cost $30 or more) and one anime distributor, Geneon, has already gone out of business. I don't think that hunting down fansubbers is going to solve the problem since:
1. It cost a lot of money to do something like this (again, something that shouldn't have to be done for a cartoon).
2. Because fansubbers have already decided to do this illegal practice anyway, so telling them to stop is only going to last so long.
I think that the best thing that anime companies and their distributors can do at this point would be to have official subtitled anime on websites. Anime distributors wouldn't be able to make dubs at the same time since editing and dubbing would still have to be done.

No, you've got it all wrong. The reason people feel compelled to steal animu is because the local distributors have always charged far too much for it. Not the other way around. It's always been ridiculously priced (in America at least). The reason local distributors charge so much for it is because the licenser's aren't reasonable over their prices, and the local distributors feel they need to pass on the cost to the consumer. Don't get me wrong, if everyone who pirates anime bought DVDs instead they could drop prices to less stupid levels, but piracy is the result of the problem, not the cause.

[Elite Knight]

I like both some i dont really need subs or dubs i understand jap just fine but the voices in some are better like someone said a while back Goku from DBZ had a girls voice and in the dub it's much better. But some subs are better then dubs so I'm a mixure of all sorts of anime types.

[Doom85]

It's always been ridiculously priced (in America at least). The reason local distributors charge so much for it is because the licenser's aren't reasonable over their prices, and the local distributors feel they need to pass on the cost to the consumer. Don't get me wrong, if everyone who pirates anime bought DVDs instead they could drop prices to less stupid levels, but piracy is the result of the problem, not the cause.

26-episode boxsets for $40-50 is overpriced? It's pretty much on par with cartoon/TV series' DVDs. Yes, some series are still being released in volumes, but most of these are LEs/artboxes, intented for the more hardcore portion of the fanbase.

Also, America is really the one has it easy. I can't remember many specifics, but I do know I've heard the anime industry in Great Britian is a nightmare. Plus, we've got websites that often offer great deals (RightStuf's a good one), and anyone who has an FYE near them should often check for good sales (through "buy 1, get 1 free" sales, I've got Samurai 7, Case Closed Season 1, Wolf's Rain, DBZ Season 3, and Slayers Season 1 for free. And of course, my 10% discount membership takes off even more). There are tons of ways to get anime for very reasonable prices in America. Other countries, I'm not too sure on, but we Americans seem to have it easy compared to other countries, especially (of all places) Japan itself.

Finally, I don't think we can say piracy is simply the result. Let's face it, there are people who started the "download music/movies/games/etc." path even if they DID have the money for them. Why? Well, probably to spend money on things you can't pirate online. Let's face it, humankind is not populated entirely of saints, and anime fandom is definitely no exception. Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of people who can't afford anime even with the significant price drop within the last few years, but not everyone is pirating because they have to.

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

26-episode boxsets for $40-50 is overpriced? It's pretty much on par with cartoon/TV series' DVDs. Yes, some series are still being released in volumes, but most of these are LEs/artboxes, intented for the more hardcore portion of the fanbase.

Low prices are for old series that have already made back their investment. When I check Amazon for something made fairly recently, in this case Code Geass, I find much higher prices for half the series. In this case 75 dollars. So, we can assume that the whole series will cost you about $150, as opposed to the $80ish two seasons of a domestic TV series would set you back.

Also, America is really the one has it easy. I can't remember many specifics, but I do know I've heard the anime industry in Great Britian is a nightmare. Plus, we've got websites that often offer great deals (RightStuf's a good one), and anyone who has an FYE near them should often check for good sales (through "buy 1, get 1 free" sales, I've got Samurai 7, Case Closed Season 1, Wolf's Rain, DBZ Season 3, and Slayers Season 1 for free. And of course, my 10% discount membership takes off even more). There are tons of ways to get anime for very reasonable prices in America. Other countries, I'm not too sure on, but we Americans seem to have it easy compared to other countries, especially (of all places) Japan itself.

Finally, I don't think we can say piracy is simply the result. Let's face it, there are people who started the "download music/movies/games/etc." path even if they DID have the money for them. Why? Well, probably to spend money on things you can't pirate online. Let's face it, humankind is not populated entirely of saints, and anime fandom is definitely no exception. Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of people who can't afford anime even with the significant price drop within the last few years, but not everyone is pirating because they have to.

Look at iTunes. They didn't stop piracy, but when Apple started offering a great deal of music at 99 cents a song, people jumped on it. If you offer a service for a reasonable price that's easier then the illegal alternative (a decent anime streaming site is easier to find then a good emulation or crack site, but still pretty hard to find), many people will gladly give you their money. If you scream incoherently that they must go to the mall and pay you 16 dollars for a CD with 2 decent songs, people will ignore you and turn to LimeWire.

[Doom85]

Low prices are for old series that have already made back their investment. When I check Amazon for something made fairly recently, in this case Code Geass, I find much higher prices for half the series. In this case 75 dollars. So, we can assume that the whole series will cost you about $150, as opposed to the $80ish two seasons of a domestic TV series would set you back.

Um, that's impossible. Code Geass' release for its first season is in THREE parts (containing 8-9 episodes each). So you couldn't have possibly seen half the series (unless you thought there would be 4 parts). And the only Code Geass LE that costs $75 is the first one, which is justified since it includes the artbox, soundtrack, manga volume, etc. If you don't want all that, buy the RE for only $35.

And 2-3 years from now, you can buy the whole series for $40 in the inevitable "Anime Legends" boxset. See my point?

Besides, as you said, you checked AMAZON. The same site that once charged $200 for Bleach Season 1 when you could get it for Wal-mart for $35. Amazon does offer good deals every now and then (mainly when they do price reductions), but just as often, you're getting the short end of the stick.

Also, "old" is a subjective term. I wouldn't consider anything from this decade to be "old". Therefore, a ton of series from Funimation, Bandai, Geneon's "Funi" boxsets, and some of ADV's sets do fall into my "whole series for $40-50" argument. Besides, what's wrong with "old" anime? Unless you've somehow seen all of them, there's nothing wrong with checking out something that's been out for a while.

Edit: I'm heading over to a friend's house, so I won't be responding for a while, but I'll be happy to continue tomorrow if I have time. Until then, have a nice Friday!

[wolfgirl90]

No, you've got it all wrong. The reason people feel compelled to steal animu is because the local distributors have always charged far too much for it. Not the other way around. It's always been ridiculously priced (in America at least). The reason local distributors charge so much for it is because the licenser's aren't reasonable over their prices, and the local distributors feel they need to pass on the cost to the consumer. Don't get me wrong, if everyone who pirates anime bought DVDs instead they could drop prices to less stupid levels, but piracy is the result of the problem, not the cause.

Low-risk does not mean that there no risk and there were some people who were caught and sent to prison recently. However, that is not my point. My point is that I find it stupid to do something that breaks several copyright laws (with the known consequence of being fined and/or sent to prison) because one wanted to watch a Japanese cartoon. A person may believe that it is their "divine right" to download that subbed episode of InuYasha, but that does not stop the law from being what it is.

For those who do not know, fansubbing is illegal in every country that is part of the Berne Convention (which is almost every country in the world). The Berne Convention is an agreement that basically says that a country will recognise the copyright of the works of an author/artist from another country just as they would for artists of their country. Since Japan is part of the Berne Convention, other countries need to recognise the copyrighted status of their works (that includes anime). Some fansubbers believe that since they are distributing anume that has not been licensed outside Japan yet, they are not doing anything wrong but this thinking is flawed, since they are breaking international copyright laws.

[Diocletian]

Let's not kid ourselves. The Anime Industry is killing the Anime Industry. No one is going to wait a year to catch Naruto/Bleach/Whatever episodes if they can find them on the interwebs a week after they air. It would be entirely possible to fix this by having a translation company working with a production company to sub a show for English-speaking audiences and put it on an ad-supported internet and/or cable network simultaneously to the Japanese release of the episode. It's also technically possible to do Dubs this way. The business model is there, and it works (see: Hulu), but no one has pulled their head out of their rectum far enough to do it. You don't beat piracy by whining about it, you out compete them for audiences.

Ah, but they have. We have legalstreaming sites like joost & bosttv that are at least trying to out run places like animecrazy & such. It's mainly that no one wants to work to buy their own stuff, not patience. Fanboys and fangirls can wait at least a year for an episode...maybe.

[Gjallarhorn]

Well, the issue of fansubs "killing" the anime industry is not the fansubs themselves. It's the fans. Because people figure they can get the anime for free online, they are no longer buying DVDs to support the companies that keep anime in other countries. Watching anime online wouldn't really have any effect on our anime companies, so long as people continued to buy anime DVDs as they had before fansubs became enormously popular (let's say, 2003-2005, particularly after the American Naruto debut).

I still make a point to buy most all the anime I watch when it comes to the States, because 1) I like owning a legal copy of it, and 2) I do get some satisfaction from knowing I'm helping to support the anime industry.

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

Um, that's impossible. Code Geass' release for its first season is in THREE parts (containing 8-9 episodes each). So you couldn't have possibly seen half the series (unless you thought there would be 4 parts). And the only Code Geass LE that costs $75 is the first one, which is justified since it includes the artbox, soundtrack, manga volume, etc. If you don't want all that, buy the RE for only $35.

(Because it doesn't matter enough for me to look stuff up, I'm assuming you are correct) Umm... 3 volumes at $35 > $75. Even at $25, which is usually the price I see for manga volumes IRL it's still $75 i.e. $35 more then a comperable boxset of domestic television (or 187.5% of Domestic TV Boxset retail, if you prefer). In either case, the meat of my argument is how extremely expensive it is. Thanks for supporting it.

And 2-3 years from now, you can buy the whole series for $40 in the inevitable "Anime Legends" boxset. See my point?

No, mostly because it fits in with my model so much better. Forty Dollars + Wait 2-3 years OR $75+ is a lot of garbage to go through for something you can get right now if you want to spend time scouring the web for it, so long as you don't mind a slight tinge of guilt. The problem is that no one in their right mind is going to wait 2-3 YEARS for the reasonably priced boxset after waiting a YEAR for it to be translated if they actually cared about it in the first place. If the Industry is going to make people jump through a 4 year long hoop to get a reasonably priced product they are going to lose a lot of customers to free alternatives.

Low-risk does not mean that there no risk and there were some people who were caught and sent to prison recently. However, that is not my point. My point is that I find it stupid to do something that breaks several copyright laws (with the known consequence of being fined and/or sent to prison) because one wanted to watch a Japanese cartoon. A person may believe that it is their "divine right" to download that subbed episode of InuYasha, but that does not stop the law from being what it is.

37% of Traffic on the internet is P2P (most of which is illegal). There are almost NO arrests. Very rarely you'll hear of one or two. Mathmatically, arrest for copyright infringement via the internet is compareable to winning the lottery. It happens, but never to you much less anyone you know.

For those who do not know, fansubbing is illegal in every country that is part of the Berne Convention (which is almost every country in the world). The Berne Convention is an agreement that basically says that a country will recognise the copyright of the works of an author/artist from another country just as they would for artists of their country. Since Japan is part of the Berne Convention, other countries need to recognise the copyrighted status of their works (that includes anime). Some fansubbers believe that since they are distributing anume that has not been licensed outside Japan yet, they are not doing anything wrong but this thinking is flawed, since they are breaking international copyright laws.

So you ARE confusing morality and legality? Riddle me this, Batman: Interracial Marriage in America was illegal in many places until a Supreme Court ruling struck it down in 1967. Was interracial marriage wrong before this law was struck down? I'd say no. But it was illegal. Legality and morality can often be mutually exclusive, and you should never confuse one for the other.

As I already stated, if Fansubs are immoral because they aren't paying the licensees money, then why isn't it immoral to buy used animu, or rent animu? In either case, the licensee receives no money after the initial purchase, and therefore has no reward for their hard work. Yet I never see anyone kick and scream at Blockbuster, and mutter to the effect that they are the cancer that is killing Animu distributors.

Ah, but they have. We have legalstreaming sites like joost & bosttv that are at least trying to out run places like animecrazy & such. It's mainly that no one wants to work to buy their own stuff, not patience. Fanboys and fangirls can wait at least a year for an episode...maybe.

What's the incentive to wait? A dub. Half of animu fans hate dubs to begin with. They'd purchase anime (or watch it on ad supported internet channels) if you eliminated that year wait. As I said earlier, iTunes is a great example about people being willing to go through official channels if you make a service comparatively cheap and easy.

Well, the issue of fansubs "killing" the anime industry is not the fansubs themselves. It's the fans. Because people figure they can get the anime for free online, they are no longer buying DVDs to support the companies that keep anime in other countries. Watching anime online wouldn't really have any effect on our anime companies, so long as people continued to buy anime DVDs as they had before fansubs became enormously popular (let's say, 2003-2005, particularly after the American Naruto debut).

I still make a point to buy most all the anime I watch when it comes to the States, because 1) I like owning a legal copy of it, and 2) I do get some satisfaction from knowing I'm helping to support the anime industry.

The fans don't exist to support the industry, the industry exists to support the fans. I mean, if Windows took an hour to boot up and cost 500 dollars, whose fault would it be if people started flocking to Linux? Anime Distributors, for various reasons, are unable or unwilling to satisfy their consumer base's need for fast, affordable product. Certainly the need to pass on the high prices for anime licenses from Japan onto consumers doesn't help, but they also seem unwilling to go to a less stupid business model in which they actually competed with fansubbers.

[WitchHunter]

We need to keep in mind too that it isn't just the anime industry that's in trouble. The entire global economy is in the dumps right now, so fan subs or not the anime industry was going to slow down.

Ah, but they have. We have legalstreaming sites like joost & bosttv that are at least trying to out run places like animecrazy & such. It's mainly that no one wants to work to buy their own stuff, not patience. Fanboys and fangirls can wait at least a year for an episode...maybe.

And they stream a small handful of shows. Want to watch anything else and your still going to be parting with a good deal of cash for a DVD.

37% of Traffic on the internet is P2P (most of which is illegal). There are almost NO arrests. Very rarely you'll hear of one or two. Mathmatically, arrest for copyright infringement via the internet is compareable to winning the lottery. It happens, but never to you much less anyone you know.

And one has to wonder how many of those arrests were fan sub related. I don't have any figures, but I'd bet that most of the people who get into any trouble for online copyright infringement got caught downloading mp3s. Mostly all the anime licensors seem to do is threaten fan subbing groups to drop certain shows every once in a while. And even at that they aren't very thorough.

No, mostly because it fits in with my model so much better. Forty Dollars + Wait 2-3 years OR $75+ is a lot of garbage to go through for something you can get right now if you want to spend time scouring the web for it, so long as you don't mind a slight tinge of guilt.

Twinge of guilt? You're a better man than I it seems. Though I think what your username references killed a few more people than what my username references. Not exactly sure though.

[1trainer1]

I am a big fan of Subs as I dont mind reading the subs which keep it as it original as it can be, dubbed can be good but on most shows it has to be Subs for me