Free will

[Akira Kogami[LC]]

I see two reasons why free will might not exist.

The first is this: People make decisions based on their genetics (temperament, intelligence, etc), and also based on their environment (the decision they are making and the circumstances under which they are making.) Since people ultimately control neither their genetics nor their environment. How can they really be blamed for anything they do? and furthermore, how can they have free will.

The second is this: If there really is a God (and I believe there is, but bare with me if you don't) and that God knows everything, that means that he even knows the future. If God knows the future, and god is never wrong, that means the future is unchangeable, it is already set in stone, its static. Then no matter what we do we can't change it. If we can't control our own future, do we really have free will at all?

[TheAsterisk!]

1) People are blamed for their actions and isolated from the general population in an attempt to keep society safe and to prevent the proliferation of malevolence.
2) Yes, if you think of things rationally in a religious sense, you will become confused due to inconsistencies in philosophy and claims; that's nothing new.
3) If one thinks of all particles with their associated masses, charges, volumes, shapes, and vectored velocities, the future is already determined, and was since immediately following the Big Bang; predestination is fact. The thing is, though, nobody can know all of the information necessary to predict the future, mostly due to the Heisenberg Uncertaitny Principle and, more simply put, the observer effect (the latter is easier to understand). Simply put, whatever you observe you also effect. Even if one ignores the magnificent impracticality of observing all aspects of every particle in the universe, it is conceptually impossible to do.
4) Because predestination is fact yet the future cannot be predicted accurately, the easiest way to live is to act as if free will is fact/truth. It isn't entirely true, but, operationally, it works pretty well (sort of like Newtonian physics v. quantum mechanics).

 

5) Freewill did, in fact, exist for a short time. It came into being in 1980 and ceased to exist a little over four minutes later.

[Akira Kogami[LC]]

4) Because predestination is fact yet the future cannot be predicted accurately, the easiest way to live is to act as if free will is fact/truth. It isn't entirely true, but, operationally, it works pretty well (sort of like Newtonian physics v. quantum mechanics).


I agree with you on that.

[Eris]

3) If one thinks of all particles with their associated masses, charges, volumes, shapes, and vectored velocities, the future is already determined, and was since immediately following the Big Bang; predestination is fact. The thing is, though, nobody can know all of the information necessary to predict the future, mostly due to the Heisenberg Uncertaitny Principle and, more simply put, the observer effect (the latter is easier to understand). Simply put, whatever you observe you also effect. Even if one ignores the magnificent impracticality of observing all aspects of every particle in the universe, it is conceptually impossible to do.

We use things such as electric fields, instead of the position of billions of individual electrons to describe electromagnetic effects. We are seldom wrong in using them, because they are statistical functions of particle attributes. It's not impossible that a predictable macroscopic reality emerges from an unpredictable microscopic reality. Think of macroscopic reality as using timespans so great that the probabilities of quantum physics fuzz out and turn into average values (where individual results are irrelevant).

[TheAsterisk!]

Alright, Eris, but wouldn't you need to take individual particles into account as well seeing as chemical reactions are likely to take place with most substances at one point or another? I'm not dealing with a short time span as far as predictions are concerned; I am contending that the existence of everything and the events to take place are predetermined, but there is no way to determine the future in all its minute detail for a indefinite time into the future. I am well aware that predictions can be made about given systems into the near future (a few decades, at most, given enough information and a docile enough system) but I contend that knowing all applicable information about all particles and their distances from each other would allow the prediction of everything. There is no way to get measurements on such a grand (and minute) scale, though, so the idea has little practical, day to day consequence.
Where did I go wrong? I'd hate to be making a fool out of myself...

[genericusername2]

There is free will, it's just you don't have it because you are a moron.

[CyraXZero]

well even if our destiny was already decided we would never know. hence we do have free will because we did what we thought was best at the time (for that individual atleast).

[Aizmov]

I make my own decisions. So yeah I believe in free will!

[Hideki Motosuwa.]

I make my own decisions. So yeah I believe in free will!

Same here.

[Alias-Revolution]

Oh, Look. Another thread where I can argue with TheAsterisk!. Hi *.

Anyway,
I know it's only song lyrics, but let me quote a few from Rush. It's from a song called Free Will. (Seemed appropriate.)

There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance,
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.

A planet of playthings,
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
"The stars aren't aligned,
Or the gods are malign..."
Blame is better to give than receive.

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill.

There are those who think that they were dealt a losing hand,
The cards were stacked against them; they weren't born in Lotusland.

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face,
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate.

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete.
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet.


Looking at this we see that the real arguement here is not between Divine Intervention and Free Will, but Fate as well. Does fate exist? If so, what becomes of free will? And where does divine intervention fit into all this?

[manslayer101]

Yes i believe in free will, to me destiny doesn't exist, however, you mentioned God, well i too believe in him (don't start a god conversation *fingers crossed)

but i also believe that God knows what will happen based on human actions. remember that history always repeats itself because of the actions of human beings, a guy gets mad at another guy mad guy punches other guy, they get in a fight, it's as simple as that.

But back to freewill, i believe in freewill because if i get up one day and decide between eating an apple or an orange, and i choose the orange it was out of my personal choice, i wasn't located in a white room where the room next to me contained a few government agents commanding me to take the orange, and if i took the apple i would disappear

of course the example is a joke, but proves the point clearly

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

The basic problem with this thread is that most of you are confusing Freedom of Choice with the concept of Free Will.

I will let his informative Venn Diagram I made explain the similarities between the two.



Freedom of Choice is a ethical concept- whether or not you should be allowed to do things that have no direct negative effect on others. And no one in this thread has it. Sure, you can choose Apples over Oranges for your breakfast, but stand in front of a police station and smoke a joint and you'll find yourself in jail.

Free Will, however, is a philosophical concept that states that is possible to truly make a choice- you aren't choosing Apples over Oranges because you are naturally predisposed to apples, but because you made that choice. I personally don't believe in this concept- only a person with no memory could make a choice of one over the other without bring past events into the equation, and we, with enough observational data could prognosticate what that person would choose even then.

[jewel2sparkle]

Exactly.

[Totsean]

No! Don't buy into that! THat is not true. In fact, the way the universe is "set up" should serve you, not disserve you!

You are always at a place of free will and total choice. Being able to see into the "future" (or get others to do it for you like psychics) should enhance your ability to live the life you want, not limit it.

[dark_is_light]

The first is this: People make decisions based on their genetics (temperament, intelligence, etc), and also based on their environment (the decision they are making and the circumstances under which they are making.) Since people ultimately control neither their genetics nor their environment. How can they really be blamed for anything they do? and furthermore, how can they have free will?

First, people in similar circumstances have made completely different choices. In the end, you choose what your mind will accept as your own personal belief. Many people can go the easy route by making the common choices, but not all. However, if you choose to believe that you have no free will, then you don't. You give it up by simply believing it. Because, even in circumstances you can't change, if you fight to change them, then that makes all the difference.

The second is this: If there really is a God (and I believe there is, but bare with me if you don't) and that God knows everything, that means that he even knows the future. If God knows the future, and god is never wrong, that means the future is unchangeable, it is already set in stone, its static. Then no matter what we do we can't change it. If we can't control our own future, do we really have free will at all?

Okay, I don't really believe in "God" persay. I'm agnostic. But if It (not necessarily He) did exist, couldn't he choose not to know, just to allow for free will? Then, no matter what happens, it is by our choice and ours alone. Even in Christian ideology, people are still presented with a choice, though the Bible says that "God" has a plan, It (again not He) doesn't force Its will on people. But I must repeat, that only when you give up believing you have free will, will you ever lose it.

[JD_Himself]

God is an imaginary friend for grown ups, and even with the limits of Genetics and Enviroment as you put it we still have a bajillion choices within them limits, does that make sense?

[Musaki]

One has to look at his/her choices to be able to see and change the future
only God knows what choices we will make but he wants us too choose for ourselfs and there for we are the creators of our future we can make and shape as we please

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

No! Don't buy into that! THat is not true. In fact, the way the universe is "set up" should serve you, not disserve you!

You are always at a place of free will and total choice. Being able to see into the "future" (or get others to do it for you like psychics) should enhance your ability to live the life you want, not limit it.

That's exactly what I am talking about. Lack of Free Will does not limit what choices you CAN make; it instead says that if we put the same person in the same situation, he will always make the same choice. I guess this point is too subtle if you aren't into philosophy.

[Golden State Warrior]

I see two reasons why free will might not exist.

The first is this: People make decisions based on their genetics (temperament, intelligence, etc), and also based on their environment (the decision they are making and the circumstances under which they are making.) Since people ultimately control neither their genetics nor their environment. How can they really be blamed for anything they do? and furthermore, how can they have free will.

I think people disguise your first theory as free will. It's similar to how the Matrix is disguised as real life.

But, here's my thing. When we make a decision to make our decisions based on our environment, don't we have "free will" to choose whether or not to make that decision? Example. If I was born in the really bad neighborhood, I may be constantly surrounded by drugs and violence. I have the ability to choose whether or not I want to contribute to the drugs and the violence that's constantly plagued in that environment. Right?

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

I think people disguise your first theory as free will. It's similar to how the Matrix is disguised as real life.

But, here's my thing. When we make a decision to make our decisions based on our environment, don't we have "free will" to choose whether or not to make that decision? Example. If I was born in the really bad neighborhood, I may be constantly surrounded by drugs and violence. I have the ability to choose whether or not I want to contribute to the drugs and the violence that's constantly plagued in that environment. Right?

Again, It's freedom of will, not freedom of choice that is up for debate.

Main article: Free will
The standard use of this term is as a distinction between internally motivated and caused events and external events. Jumping off a cliff would be an act of free will; accidentally falling or being pushed off a cliff would not be an act of free will.

Some people believe that seemingly "free" actions aren't actually free, or that the entire concept is a chimera. The argument generally goes along the lines that since "internal" beliefs are affected by earlier external events, nothing is truly an internal choice, because everything you do is [pre]determined. Alternately, if there is no foreordained future, we may be at the mercy of the randomness of chance, which may also negate free will.

Choice consists of the mental process of thinking involved with the process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one of them for action. Some simple examples include deciding whether to get up in the morning or go back to sleep, or selecting a given route for a journey. More complex examples (often decisions that affect what a person thinks or their core beliefs) include choosing a lifestyle, religious affiliation, or political position.

[niKopol]

Different people do make the same decisions. Truthfully, its rather boring. Especially when you see personalities and looks repeat too. The only reason I haven't gone completely bonkers is because there are slight subtle differences.

I try to make decisions that are beneficial in the long run. I also make decisions that are beneficial to others and sometimes it makes me look like the bad guy.

Free-will... hmm... I'll try to simplify. I could take a gun to a school and shoot everyone that I didn't like. Or I could just let my grudge slide. Which would be more beneficial. Free-will is a battle between your emotions and your ability to think logically and rationally. Though I only mentioned two things that I can do, I can carry either them out in many different ways. Free-will isn't only what you do, its also how you do it.

Damn it, MP2K, I just repeated what you said in my own words...

[Golden State Warrior]

Again, It's freedom of will, not freedom of choice that is up for debate.

I used to think will and choice were one of the same. Looks like I was mistaken.

Thanks for pointing them out. Well, looks like I can fire the devil's advocate now.

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

I used to think will and choice were one of the same. Looks like I was mistaken.

Thanks for pointing them out. Well, looks like I can fire the devil's advocate now.

Well, they do mean something very similar to one another in common English, but philosophical English uses different definitions.

[Golden State Warrior]

I knew I shouldn't have dropped that Philosophy class in college.

[Asriel]

I have one thing to say..............

God doesn't exist.I do believe knowone has free will and theres so no such thing as free will because were all bound to something anyway.There are chains that cannot be seen that people are bound to.Those who do see,truly understand the meaning of "NO SUCH THING AS FREE WILL"