Forbidden Love

[Myrra]

I thought I'd play SGI today and offer up a news story I read this morning.
If this topic is too volitile for Misc, I do apologise to Beany & Klutzy in advance.
I'm curious as to what others think about this. Do you think the laws should be changed? Or do you believe that since the laws have stood for so long and are based on what western civilizations consider moral that they should stand.
Forbidden Love

[Eris]

This is a law that actually makes a lot of sense, even if it could be fine tuned to allow for these sort of exceptions.

Inbreeding is not something to be meddled with, and something you bestow upon your children, and their children for many generations to come.

[Sagat]

Tch, look what it did to the Egyptians and Romans.

Breeding a bunch of retarded kids that will be a bane to the state, oh, that's just wonderful. Let's allow them to bring those destined to fail children into the world just for their sake.

I know the guy had that operation to make him sterile, so they can't have kids - thank allah - but the fact stands that over turning the law allows others to do this.

If the law is overturned, the couple should have to sign a contract or something acknowledging that if their offspring is handicapped in any way because of the mix of same DNA, that they're on their friggen own.

That, or come here and join the biggest welfare, social parasite supporting country there is : Canada.

[precious_angel]

that just wrong, it sick how can you even think of having children with your sister

[None of the above]

I'm pretty shocked.
Quote:"This couple are not harming anyone. It is discrimination. And besides, we must not forget that every child is so valuable," said Dr Wilhelm.

They do hurt someone: their own child (not just from the perspective of physical disabilities that will surely appear in this case, but also from the psychical perspective).

A jail sentence of 2 years might be to harsh. I have known a few cases where close Related got married and had one or more children. Not to mention these toddlers died because of complications.

Concerning the law: the Germans won't abolish it in the near future. They are having a lot of troubles with problems inside of the 'associal' families. Their conservatism will be an impediment (more difficult to surpass at the Constitutional Court then wherever else) in the approving of such a behaviour.

[Ayame_Sohma]

I think its really wrong but if they are happy..then fine..but i dont think they should allowed it thought.

[Haibara]

That is just sick and wrong siblings having children together. It is well known that incest causes the children to have disabilities I mean already two of their children have problems.

"Eric, our eldest child, has epilepsy, but he was born two months premature, he also has learning difficulties. Our other daughter, Sarah, has special needs," Patrick said.

"Medical research has shown that there is a higher risk of genetic abnormalities when close relatives have a child together. When siblings have children, there is a 50% chance that the child will be disabled," he said.

[Baka]

It's kind of disturbing. Think about the children. Their dad's their uncle. Their mom's their aunt. Their siblings are also their cousins. It should be illegal.

[Eris]

It's kind of disturbing. Think about the children. Their dad's their uncle. Their mom's their aunt. Their siblings are also their cousins. It should be illegal.

It -is- illegal.

[ParaParaJMo]

I'll admit I am disturbed by this, but it doesn't affect any of us or are everyday lives. They are not going to cost you your job or house or your kids. We have Iraq still going on, people begging on the streets, kids that need to be fed, clothed, and educated.

Yes, it may not be natural or normal, but it's not really hurting anybody.

[Eris]

Yes, it may not be natural or normal, but it's not really hurting anybody.

... except the children? Inbreeding wrecks havoc on the genes: You're significantly more likely to have genetic defects in your children. Is it really fair to them?

Being an alcoholic chain smoker working in a nuclear power plant while you're pregnant is probably less dangerous than inbreeding.

[Fetal Fetish]

In my opinion, it seems wrong to have a child with your sister. But if they can proceed to cross the line of family and are happy, then fine, But it's still a little disturbing.

[Buruku]

I don't think people should be restricted of who they love/be in a relationship with, however I feel this couple acted irresponsibly by having children when its well known that incests causes problems.

I don't think there's a need to be grossed out, the couple didn't know eachother until they were adults, its not like they grew up togather. But you'd think they'd be smart enough to throw all romantic ideas out of their heads once they met. (You'd think)

If people get something out of incest then whatever, I don't care, but they shouldn't be having children.

In my opinion, it seems wrong to have a child with your sister.

That statement really made me chuckle, I think I'll put it in my sig.

[menchia]

My opinion is simple: these people didn't know they were siblings until adulthood as previously stated. The issue is they didn't grow up together, the feelings happened. If you know your sister from birth it is less likely that relationships will form, but meeting after 22 years relationships have the chance of forming like any other relationship, maybe more. Germany, Europe, the USA are democratic goverments(Europe is mostly if not all democratic) and that gives people the right to govern themselves, meaning the goverment shouldn't control who people form relationships with.

The goverment took 3 of their kids and put them in other's care, just because they're siblings. What gives the goverment the right to control people, or their buisness. Incest is morally unsettiling but the goverment shouldn't overstep their boundarys. Just because they're siblings doesn't make them an unfit parent, that is the goverment trying to control the way you think and act.

Oh, if it's so wrong, why not stop the marriage or separate them? They can't cause they have done nothing wrong and it is society that can't cope with them, not them not coping with society. Marriage, relationships are about love, and they love eachother in... that way, so it's not up to us to make the decision and if you try to stop them just cause you don't like it(meaning it's not hurting anyone(forget the kids)) then you are the lowest type of human being on this planet. Hold your opinions, but don't critisize them for their beliefs, thats like revolting against Christianity or Judaism, or any religion. Their beliefs should not be controlled by the goverment or anyone but themselves. The reason we do this is because we can't cope or understand their feelings, so we attack them to make them fall inline. We won't accept anything except the norm of society.

Here's a question I ask you: All creature go back to 2 creatures, 1 male, 1 female, so if that is so then aren't we all related at some point in time?

Don't discriminate those who are different from you for whatever reason it may be: Race, Religion, beliefs. Also, if it's so bad to marry your sister then why can some people marry their cousins? Einstein married his cousin and we don't insult him, so why do people feel to treat people like this unfairly. Is it because their not important enough to be left alone?

All in all, this is a very controversial issue, but I feel that we won't even try to give it a chance. Even if the law ended, the number of incests would only increase slightly just because of morality's(and not many would want to marry their sister, I wouldn't) influence on people.

[Eris]

Don't discriminate those who are different from you for whatever reason it may be: Race, Religion, beliefs. Also, if it's so bad to marry your sister then why can some people marry their cousins? Einstein married his cousin and we don't insult him, so why do people feel to treat people like this unfairly. Is it because their not important enough to be left alone?

For crying out loud! This isn't about -beliefs-! If it was only about beliefs, I would gladly let them copulate. How can I put this so you people understand it? Incest harms the children. Not mentally like the anti-gay lobby says homosexual parents does, but physically. What about the children's rights? Is it okay to force people to grow up with disabilities just because the parents couldn't get it through their skulls that incest has adverse effects on the geneology of their children.

Marrying your cousin is better, since there is more original genes in both parties, even though this practice also is dubious.

[Sagat]

My answers in orange cause I'm too lazy to break things up

Germany, Europe, the USA are democratic goverments(Europe is mostly if not all democratic)

Europe is mostly democratic? Heh, there are a lot of differing political views stirring over there.

and that gives people the right to govern themselves, meaning the goverment shouldn't control who people form relationships with.

The Government enforces the law. If the people don't like it, they can force a change, and the Government will enforce it.

What gives the goverment the right to control people, or their buisness.

In some way, I do feel for them, especially when I read what she said in a "barely audible voice" however, as earnest as their feelings may be however, they are brother and sister and certain societal norms and standards must be enforced lest a state collapse into utter indecency and moral decay. If they allow incest, what next? Sex with 12 year olds? How far must the line be continually pushed? The world has a whole is quickly eroding to the point where all viewpoints, all urges, all wants are being accepted. The line has to be drawn at certain points before we all end up some messed up dystopian future like society such as one from Brave New World.

Incest is morally unsettiling but the goverment shouldn't overstep their boundarys. Just because they're siblings doesn't make them an unfit parent, that is the goverment trying to control the way you think and act.

"The state must not become a servant of the masses, but their master"

Oh, if it's so wrong, why not stop the marriage or separate them? They can't cause they have done nothing wrong and it is society that can't cope with them, not them not coping with society.

No, it is precisely them going against society. They knew beforehand incest was highly frowned upon from a moral, ethical and most of all scientific standpoint yet persisted in doing it.

Marriage, relationships are about love, and they love eachother in... that way, so it's not up to us to make the decision and if you try to stop them just cause you don't like it(meaning it's not hurting anyone(forget the kids)) then you are the lowest type of human being on this planet.

If they have a problem with it, perhaps they should leave Germany, you know, as Australia suggested when you have a problem with its country, instead of trying to be yet another stupid minority of whatever trying to change the rules to suit themselves.

Hold your opinions, but don't critisize them for their beliefs, thats like revolting against Christianity or Judaism, or any religion.

That's a bad thing?

Their beliefs should not be controlled by the goverment or anyone but themselves. The reason we do this is because we can't cope or understand their feelings, so we attack them to make them fall inline. We won't accept anything except the norm of society.

Is this track skipping or did I not already read that part?

Here's a question I ask you: All creature go back to 2 creatures, 1 male, 1 female, so if that is so then aren't we all related at some point in time?

Yeah, hundreds and hundreds of millions of years ago, to the point now where our DNA is so scattered that it no longer matters, and your point of how everyone may be technically incestual is rendered completely moot.

Don't discriminate those who are different from you for whatever reason it may be: Race, Religion, beliefs. Also, if it's so bad to marry your sister then why can some people marry their cousins? Einstein married his cousin and we don't insult him, so why do people feel to treat people like this unfairly. Is it because their not important enough to be left alone?

In that aspect, I think Einstein was retarded.

All in all, this is a very controversial issue, but I feel that we won't even try to give it a chance. Even if the law ended, the number of incests would only increase slightly just because of morality's(and not many would want to marry their sister, I wouldn't) influence on people.

Like I said, it's all about the drawing of the line.

[Spectre]

Uh....Ewww...incest is probably one of the nastiest things you can do....Ewwww even the thought of it is weird....

[Eris]

Europe is mostly democratic? Heh, there are a lot of differing political views stirring over there.

Most of it is certainly not -less- democractic than any north american nation, whatever good a measurement that is.

[WhatIsAUserName]

*sighes* Once something reserved only for the Spanish Habsburgs or the Ptolemaic pharaohs, now even the commoners can commit the sacred act of incest. And they're thinking of legalizing it.

How distantly related do you have to be in order to produce children that aren't at a higher risk?

Anyways, I believe that incest is wrong if it can bring children, but I see no problem with the act itself of sexual intercourse. Of course, the moment we get a zygote, they've crossed a line. Of course, the government forcing an abortion is no less morally correct. I don't know if it would be ethical to take those children away from their parents though.

[Hiding]

Well they aren't related by BLOOD. But they're still related. Even so I think that the law should be changed to not include NON BLOOD RELETIVES. Just because that's what the parents did doesn't mean the kids will too.

[Prince Darien]

Whoah, I was not expecting that. I do not think the laws against incest should be changed.

There are high chances of genetic problems which could most definitly harm their kids. Then there is the whole your aunt is your mother and your father is you uncle and you're youe own cousin thing. Well at least they will not have to spend much on traveling to their children's grandparents house.

Marrying your cousin is one thing but your sibling is another.

I am pretty sure I read it right, but it did say they are biological siblings correct? If they are just sibling via adoption I see no problem with it, but that is not what it sounds like.

[Myrra]

I swear, everytime I wanted to reply I got pulled away. Anyway, to answer Prince Darien, I'm sure they are blood related...it said in the article after "their mother died", definitely and indication of blood relation. Some rules just shouldn't be changed and I think incest is most definitely one of them. Not only cos of the dubious issue of morality, but cos of the very real genetic risks (though I'm of an opinion that we leave them on an island and let them inbreed themselves out of existence). These were not kids, they were adults when they met. They knew of the possible consequences before they chose to violate the law. Do I think they deserve to be punished? Yes, I do. What I don't find fair is that he's the one taking all the punishment. What about her? She just as willfully violated the law and the social norms. Why is she not being forced to serve a sentence as well?

[Masali]

Hmph, It's gross indeed. But I can't blame him...well, I can for AFTER he found out, but not for before. If you met a great girl for the first time in your life after never meeting her, never having any contact with her, and you started to like her than yeah, I can understand it. It's not like you smell the other parties arse and you can automatically tell they're kin. You kind of have to develop that sense, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know exactly. But I can't blame him if he never found out, but after he did...it's not right. He's damaging his children, and he's pretty much gauranteed himself the permenant dissaproval of EVERYONE in like...well...the world. So yes, it's wrong and it hurts more than the parties involved. That family lineage is more or less up a creek.

[In0kz]

they should go to jail... It's just wrong.. I mean they are siblings.... nope I don't like it, not at all.

[pyre]

"What is wrong with them?" was what ran through my mind when I read the article.

Love is something that can get confusing. Like when you lust for someone and think it's true love. Or when you crush on a celebrity and think it's true love. In this case, they mistook sibling love for true love. I can understand that after being alone for so long and you finally find out you have a sister/brother, the feeling of love (sibling love) is so overwhelming...it's like getting a weight off your shoulders. There's a strong connection between persons who've shared the same womb, you know. In the rush of the moment, they got carried away. I'm pretty sure that that's their case.

Incest is wrong...think of the children! The handicaps caused by inbreeding...it will be difficult for them! I wonder that their parents can live with the fact that they themselves caused their children's handicaps. i think it's just selfish, what they did. "I don't care because I love you, even though it will cause us more pain when we see our children handicapped because of us." It sounds like this to me.

And about the law...the laws are there for a reason. It's to keep us from causing harm to others and ourselves.