Flag Burning

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

You say that because you never actually LIVED in the US, you are going by what the media is saying, and until you've actually lived here, I don't really see how your opinion counts in all this. No, it's not perfect, but no where on this planet is it perfect.

But I would much pick the US over any country.

I've lived in the US all my life, and I agree that, at least in so far as I can tell from here, Canada/Europe are much more liberated, and roughly as free. Whether or not you prefer that sort of thing is up to you.

[Yugure's Goddess]

Working on a military base, I know how military life is.

Oh that's a great bit of assuming you're doing there. You make it sound like we don't give a crap about the military and that it's all about the military. Look, I can sympathize with those in the military. I know you got it rough and you're lives are quite a bit more strenuous and dangerous then my own, however just because this idiotic government puts you through all that doesn't mean I should respect that government. Besides you're the one that made the decision to join the military, knowing full well what you were getting yourself into. Unless you were drafted in which case I have further pity for you. Don't start complaining about something like that, when it's not our faulth that you're being put through all that. Don't try to win an argument with a guilt trip. Please. It's quite pathetic and causes people like myself to look down on you.

I strongly believe that if you don't respect America and which it stands for, I feel you don't belong here.

If you're so much of a patriot then you should observe the actions of the government and do something when it screws up!(cause it does, often. The government is not filled with gods, however much they try to make it seem like.) That's what it's all about. Besides, ever take into consideration the fact that maybe a person (like myself) can't leave even if they wanted to? Or perhaps a person who enjoys the freedoms we used to have and would like to restore them and perhaps would like to make this country REALLY free?

Thank you for the most idiotic, self-centered and narrow-minded statement you could make. That statement in it of itself defies everything this country was built on more than burning the flag. What ever happened to "Give me your tired, hungry poor. Give me your huddled masses yearning to be free" (or something to that effect) that inscription (along with the first amendment) implies that the people of America should be open and caring to ALL PEOPLE AND ALL IDEALS. Which include people who hate what it's turning into.

Although I do agree that some laws here are silly, I find it to be safe, and I'm happy here.

It's plenty safe in MANY other coutries. This place is no longer "special", hun.

I can go outside with Blue, Orange, Green, Pink AND Red hair if I FELT like it!

You can do that in Japan, too. So? And besides lots of schools are imposing restrictions on dress code pertaining to hair and even just the colors of normal articles of clothing because of gangs. I mean really, banning a whole color because a group of idiots think it belongs to them and the fact that people are too dumb to find another way to take care of the problem? SO FREE!!

This country is my home, and I would be -VERY- offended, should you disregard the respect of the country, and commit such an atrocity by burning my nation's flag.

So? Using "it offends me/other people" as a defense is such a weak crutch to stand on and really gives no credit to an argument. If it offends you then *GO AWAY* or *IGNORE IT* as you all would use as reasoning against US. If you don't like it then YOU *LEAVE* cause it's the same damn logic.

FREEDOM is LIMITED unfortunately, and when I say that, I say that because not that we're not liberated already, but you don't understand, that it can be A LOT worse.

In Saudia Arabia, they cut off this man's fingers (4 of them, both index, and pinkies), for being labled a theif. This is the SAME country that tortured and mutilated two homosexual men, for loving each other.

oh, horse crap! You're either free or you're not, in my eyes there is no in-between. Also the words *FREEDOM* and *LIMITED* are ANTONYMS! Hello! You can't use one to define the other!

the definition for freedom/to be free:

freedom
–noun 1.the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint. 2.exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc. 3.the power to determine action without restraint. 4.political or national independence. 5.personal liberty, as opposed to bondage or slavery 6.exemption from the presence of anything specified

all of which imply being *DEVOID* from *LIMITATIONS*. You people on AF really need to think a little more before you post such bold statements.

And just because it can get worse doesn't mean we should just LET it get worse or accept it the way it is. (EDIT: the following is not for sympathy it is used only as an example to prove my point) You see, I'm pretty freakin' poor.(In America! Surprise! Surprise!) I mean it's not another couple of hours at home before I hear something about how we can barely pay the electric bill or how we're lucky to still have food on the table. But I'm not in some third world country eating dirt off the ground. Does that mean I should be satisfied? Just cause it's not AS bad as it could be, I should be HAPPY?

HELL NO! I'm gonna do everything in my power to CHANGE my freakin' circumstances. I'm not just gonna lie down and watch my life be washed away simply because I'm poor now so there's no hope for the future. Or because it's my place in the world and I shouldn't change it because "That's just the way things are!

Same thing with this government, I say if you want to prove a point, do it. If you think this country sucks and if you think it would fit best to burn the flag to prove a good point then by all means do what you need to do. Whatever it takes to get people TO WAKE UP and start giving a damn about the fact that this country is going to hell in a handbasket. If you're truly a patriot you shouldn't just sit there and watch it be blown away by the wind! GET OFF YOUR LAZY REAR END, STOP MAKING EXCUSES, AND DO SOMETHING!

America is BY FAR the fairest and most liberated country of them all (or most), and I feel very offended should I see our country disregarded.

oh that's nice. You know this for sure? Have you ever been to any other countries? Do you have some proof to base this OPINION(not fact) of yours? Probably not, and if you do, take a moment to think (don't hurt yourself) before you post a DECENT response to my post...

Call me overzealous, I honestly do not mind. I stick to what I believe, and that's that.

As do I.

No, the authorities will not get involved, however, I personally know many civilians that would boycott that house, and make your life a living hell, where you'll WANT to move out of the neighborhood.

Just because the law will not come after you for burning a flag, doesn't mean civlians and military dependents wouldn't attack you. I feel that in all reality, that house would most likely become a prime target for burglery, broken windows, and much hatred.

Because this country is full idiots that think it's better than everywhere else. Because it's full of people that don't want you to have what the constitution that they're tryin to protect stands for. Just further prove my point, why don't ya? By all means, please: Further express WHY I'm all for this flag-burning crap FOR me!

That is how serious people take it. And by burning the nation's FLAG, when you are IN that nation, I would definately not constitute as wise.

Serious people? Like you little mr/miss patriot? Because a lot of that last hunk that I quoted and commented on seemed almost like a threat!

EDIT:

Very bold statement, that might have held some water in the old WWII and CW days. But today, nah-- today we're speaking of a country that's know for being conservative and generally full of moralists.

You will find that the US ceased to be the land of the brave August 6, 1945; and the home of the free October 26, 2001.

AMEN! JUST ANOTHER REASON WHY I WORSHIP YOU!!! *glomp*

And I shall calm myself from my fire for now. There are plenty of other things to say but i think you get the point, now. and if you have more to say, more bad reps to give then be my guest. I'll do everything in my power to prove you all wrong.

love
dani
dude

[Kishiro]

Pushing to get a right makes sense.

Pushing to restrict the right to demonstration when it does not infringe upon the rights of others, does not.

Same goes for most things, doesn't it? Pushing to restrict the freedoms, rights, and civil liberties of others, when whatever they are doing doesn't actually hurt others?

It happens anyway in this country. And it is allowed to happen. And usually, it happens for the wrong cases. But it'll never happen when it should, or when it really matters.

I personally find it to be a sad state of affairs when we can't reserve one right not to allow something so vulgar and insulting after being given so much. Do we REALLY need to know we are allowed to burn the flag, and that be ok? Why does outlawing that have to be a step towards facism?

Does that make copyright laws facism? What about the do not remove under penalty of law tags on mattresses? Far fetched, yes, but still relevant. Reserving the right to restrict and limit is not facism, it is what we do in this country when we don't want something infringed upon that means something to us.

I have no problem with protest, free speech, or speaking out, or speaking your mind, but damn, come on, how could these people think it is a good idea to be able to do that, and then insult the people who gave them that ability at the same time.

Regex, I know you are arguing that it is stupid to burn the flag, but it isn't wrong to do it, and it shouldn't be outlawed. I get that, and where you are coming from on that. And now I hope everyone else gets that too. However, I think it is just a matter of respect and decency.

When our rights were created, and when people fought to protect them, I highly doubt they had burning the flag in mind as the right way to protest or make a statement. I'm almost certain they'd take it as a slap in the face, as if to say...

"Hey, I've got free speech, and freedom of expression, and I LOVE IT. Yeah! Now, to show how much I love it, I'm going to protest the idea that burning the flag should be illegal by burning the flag, the very symbol to the rest of the world of what my rights are and all that I have. Why? Because I'm SO open minded, and I hate nazis and facism, and America is getting to be that way. Excuse me whilst I go make a fire pit in the street, and burn the star spangled banner infront of old man Johnson's house. He served in WWII, lol."

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

I'm completely mystified as to why any of this is a big deal to anyone. No one has ever died for the American flag. People died for their friends and families, and by extension, their country. Why put any amount of passion in to the sanctity of a piece of fabric?

Kishiro, I ask you this: What reason should there be an amendment? What good would come of it? Would the nation really be a better place if people were sent to jail for breaking a taboo attached to a symbol because some people are squeamish about it? Enforcing civility through code of law, much less an amendment is utterly a waste of time. It teaches no one anything, and sets up a HORRIBLE precedent.

Also, I have to mention that the tag on the mattresses can't be removed by the manufacture/seller, not the buyer. It's a law designed to inform the consumer of the bedding materials. It's completely legal for the owner to remove it. There are no Mattress Gestapo waiting in the wings.

[-Batman-]

Rather than jump into the debate, i'll just state my opinion. Too tired right now.

Flag burning? Honestly, when you break it down, it's just a decorative piece of cloth. A peace of cloth doesn't make a country great, only the people living in said country can do that. It's not like you're burning a caged bald eagle, or taking a sledge hammer to the liberty bell. So you burn a mass produced flag you got at kmart on sale for $9.99.
Burning a flag to me, doesn't cheapen it's meaning, it's just a waste of a perfectly good flag.

Would I personally burn a flag? No. You aren't really proving anything by burning a flag...Except maybe sending the message that you're an attention *****. You also waste money buying the flag, the matches, organizing an event if you want to make an even bigger attention ***** of yourself, and maybe gasoline if you want the flag to burn faster.

So...Am I against it? No...Can I honestly say I care? No...What I REALLY want to know...Whats the freakin' point?

[Regex]

Oh that's a great bit of assuming you're doing there. You make it sound like we don't give a crap about the military and that it's all about the military. Look, I can sympathize with those in the military. I know you got it rough and you're lives are quite a bit more strenuous and dangerous then my own, however just because this idiotic government puts you through all that doesn't mean I should respect that government. Besides you're the one that made the decision to join the military, knowing full well what you were getting yourself into. Unless you were drafted in which case I have further pity for you. Don't start complaining about something like that, when it's not our faulth that you're being put through all that. Don't try to win an argument with a guilt trip. Please. It's quite pathetic and causes people like myself to look down on you.

It's fun to just repeat what Dieselmannen says, isn't it? But you should learn that her opinions are usually very biased against commonly accepted ideas, and as biased opinions, you shouldn't mimic them. (This is not to dispute what Dieselmannen has to say. I respond to her when I have something to say)

Now Piper isn't in the Military. He works on the base. There's a difference. He chose to serve the Military, rather than to serve in the Military. What he was trying to say was not that he deserves any pity, but that he observes Military life and that they go through a lot for what they believe in. Myself, as someone who was in the Military, I will say this. When we chose to join, we made it perfectly clear what we stood for. We put our lives in the hands of the Government because we believe in its cause. It's not like we went in there not knowing that it would be hard. We went in to do a job, to aid in protecting freedom.

If you're so much of a patriot then you should observe the actions of the government and do something when it screws up!(cause it does, often. The government is not filled with gods, however much they try to make it seem like.) That's what it's all about. Besides, ever take into consideration the fact that maybe a person (like myself) can't leave even if they wanted to? Or perhaps a person who enjoys the freedoms we used to have and would like to restore them and perhaps would like to make this country REALLY free?

Why can't you leave? What's stopping you? Are you too young? With the rest of your arguments, that would appear to be the case. Live in the real world for a bit and understand just what we have here. No, nobody is trying to claim that the government is perfect. We know that people make mistakes. But our government is designed to minimize that, with the checks and balances system in place. Ask someone who lived in Russia or Iraq (just two examples, there are MANY more) and moved here. Hell, I work with several people who moved here from Canada who have said that it's a better life here, despite how we share the same freedoms.

What are these freedoms you claim we used to have, but no longer do? It's quite idiotic to suggest that we're not free, just because there are laws in place. The freedom that you are allowed to say things like this is about your nation still quite real. You don't get that freedom in China.

Thank you for the most idiotic, self-centered and narrow-minded statement you could make. That statement in it of itself defies everything this country was built on more than burning the flag. What ever happened to "Give me your tired, hungry poor. Give me your huddled masses yearning to be free" (or something to that effect) that inscription (along with the first amendment) implies that the people of America should be open and caring to ALL PEOPLE AND ALL IDEALS. Which include people who hate what it's turning into.
It's plenty safe in MANY other coutries. This place is no longer "special", hun.

Congratulations on being a typical American and assuming the worst about everything. You see, Piper's statement was not to say that we should deport everyone who doesn't appreciate what we have in the country. It was an extreme example, to demonstrate how utterly idiotic it is to have such a ridiculous view on the nation. Why stay here if it's so bad? It's not so hard to leave the country, really. Nobody is keeping you here, so find somewhere else to be, or enjoy what you have.

That inscription doesn't mean that we should like everyone. It means we should accept them as Americans. I, for one, accept that you're an American, and have every right to believe how you like. But I still think you're missing the big picture with your tiny view.

You can do that in Japan, too. So? And besides lots of schools are imposing restrictions on dress code pertaining to hair and even just the colors of normal articles of clothing because of gangs. I mean really, banning a whole color because a group of idiots think it belongs to them and the fact that people are too dumb to find another way to take care of the problem? SO FREE!!

And nowhere does claiming America to be free suggest that we are exclusively the only free nation. You're bringing irrelevant arguments into it.
And to suggest that telling children they can't wear common gang symbols is restricting the freedom of the nation? Please. You should get older. It only takes time. Then have this argument. Look at how schools are. High schools, which consist of children who are in the stage of life where they want to act out and rebel against how they were brought up, are going to have to impose stronger restrictions to protect the faculty and the students. No, gang-associated colors are not going to cause a person to shoot the school up, and no, restricting them will not stop everyone from doing it. But it will help maintain some amount of order in the schools, which is absolutely necessary in an institution of learning.

So? Using "it offends me/other people" as a defense is such a weak crutch to stand on and really gives no credit to an argument. If it offends you then *GO AWAY* or *IGNORE IT* as you all would use as reasoning against US. If you don't like it then YOU *LEAVE* cause it's the same damn logic.

He's not the one who has such an unfounded hatred against the country that allows him to express such an opinion. Why should he leave? It's not like he's out there yelling at everyone who has anti-Bush bumper stickers. Last I recall, Piper despised Bush as much as anyone, but he still loves the nation and what it stands for.

oh, horse crap! You're either free or you're not, in my eyes there is no in-between. Also the words *FREEDOM* and *LIMITED* are ANTONYMS! Hello! You can't use one to define the other!
the definition for freedom/to be free:
all of which imply being *DEVOID* from *LIMITATIONS*. You people on AF really need to think a little more before you post such bold statements.

hahahaha...
Seriously.. Just no. The world is NOT so black and white. Like it or not, the idea of freedom HAS to be limited to keep a nation without it turning to chaos. If you go ANYWHERE else, your freedoms will STILL BE LIMITED. You have more freedom in some areas than others. But specifically, when your freedom infringes on the freedoms of others, you have to restrict it. Laws must be made to keep people from taking more than their fair share.

You can't say that in a free country, you have the right to steal the property of another, or that you have the right to create a hostile living situation for other people, just because it suits you. That's anarchy, chaos, and discord. No society can thrive on that.

And just because it can get worse doesn't mean we should just LET it get worse or accept it the way it is. (EDIT: the following is not for sympathy it is used only as an example to prove my point) You see, I'm pretty freakin' poor.(In America! Surprise! Surprise!) I mean it's not another couple of hours at home before I hear something about how we can barely pay the electric bill or how we're lucky to still have food on the table. But I'm not in some third world country eating dirt off the ground. Does that mean I should be satisfied? Just cause it's not AS bad as it could be, I should be HAPPY?

HELL NO! I'm gonna do everything in my power to CHANGE my freakin' circumstances. I'm not just gonna lie down and watch my life be washed away simply because I'm poor now so there's no hope for the future. Or because it's my place in the world and I shouldn't change it because "That's just the way things are!

Tell me, if your family is having trouble paying the electric bill, who is paying for the Internet? That's a luxury that you don't require. I know that there are poor people in the country, because people have to work to make enough money. Sometimes the expenses will get greater than the income is. But a lot (no, not all, and I'm not accusing you or your family) of these people who are having financial difficulties have more trouble because of poor decisions they made. I have known several people who I met living on the streets downtown, and some of them decided that they didn't want to live on the streets anymore, and they actually brought themselves out of that situation. They worked hard and now have homes and steady income, and they didn't have to rely on handouts and charity to get there.

You have the means to do it. If they can make it with no assets whatsoever, I think it's safe to assume that you, who has a computer and a roof over your head, can also find a way to make it.

But, I digress. That's not the point of what you were saying.

Same thing with this government, I say if you want to prove a point, do it. If you think this country sucks and if you think it would fit best to burn the flag to prove a good point then by all means do what you need to do. Whatever it takes to get people TO WAKE UP and start giving a damn about the fact that this country is going to hell in a handbasket. If you're truly a patriot you shouldn't just sit there and watch it be blown away by the wind! GET OFF YOUR LAZY REAR END, STOP MAKING EXCUSES, AND DO SOMETHING!

When does telling someone "YOU SUCK" ever get anything done? Burning the flag is just that. If you want to do something, start a petition. Can't? Find someone who agrees with you who can. Find enough people who will help support your cause. Write your congressman. People discount that one far too easily. Your congressman wants votes, and if he sees that voters want something, he'll give it the time of day.

oh that's nice. You know this for sure? Have you ever been to any other countries? Do you have some proof to base this OPINION(not fact) of yours? Probably not, and if you do, take a moment to think (don't hurt yourself) before you post a DECENT response to my post...

Perhaps Piper hasn't given any evidence. I challenge you to find evidence to the contrary while you wait for it.

Myself, I wouldn't use those words, because it is quite extreme. But I've been very happy with the government here. I'm safe from harm. I'm free to live out my life how I please. I'm free to move to Canada to be with someone I love. It is quite fair here. It's very free here. I didn't think so when I was younger, but now that I've grown up and learned a bit about what the world is like, I'm pretty happy with it.

Because this country is full idiots that think it's better than everywhere else. Because it's full of people that don't want you to have what the constitution that they're tryin to protect stands for. Just further prove my point, why don't ya? By all means, please: Further express WHY I'm all for this flag-burning crap FOR me!

That's good. Call people idiots because they believe differently than you. Way to set the example. You've only been able to show that you believe the way you do, not that your belief is the right one.
You shouldn't be surprised that a vast number of people who live here enjoy their country and way of life. The smarter ones know how to change what needs to be changed, and do what it takes. Even the homeless friends I have seem to be enjoying their lives. Not all of them like their specific situation, but they handle it well.


You have a lot to say, but you didn't back it up very well. In fact, the only thing you did back up is the part I agree with. People should have the right to express their disdain for the country, even if it offends people.

I personally find it to be a sad state of affairs when we can't reserve one right not to allow something so vulgar and insulting after being given so much. Do we REALLY need to know we are allowed to burn the flag, and that be ok? Why does outlawing that have to be a step towards facism?

Does that make copyright laws facism? What about the do not remove under penalty of law tags on mattresses? Far fetched, yes, but still relevant. Reserving the right to restrict and limit is not facism, it is what we do in this country when we don't want something infringed upon that means something to us.

Copyright laws are there to protect the original creator of intellectual property. Software developers like myself spend many many hours writing code to make games like Starcraft, and then people decide they shouldn't have to pay for it, so they download it and play it for free. Same with movies and music. They're trying to crack down, and it's gotten to the point where it's just ridiculous, but the original intent was to protect the people who put forth their time, effort, and creativity to create these things.

And the matress thing, Manhattan explained. It's to protect the consumer, so the consumer knows what they're getting.

I don't disagree with you on the respect and decency. But we can't really make a law requiring respect, can we?

[Eris]

You say that because you never actually LIVED in the US, you are going by what the media is saying, and until you've actually lived here, I don't really see how your opinion counts in all this.

Yet strangely, most people seem to have a negative opinion about the third reich whether or not they actually lived there.


I say that because it's the picture I get, from media and from people living there. For an instance, how about that gay marriage thing? It's legal (albeit somewhat restricted by whether or not the priest wants to wed gay people or not) in many places in the world. Not so for the US of A.

Or marijuana for that matter, there are places in the world where you can smoke pot freely without the lawenforcement giving a damn.

Or prostitution, which also is a liberty that's denied to the american people.

Most Americans I've talked to about these things usually get a bit squirmish and say these rights aren't really rights, because it's not moral or it's bad for the people, but that doesen't waive the fact that they are liberties in many places of the world,... except the US.


Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't mind the US passing stupid laws, if it wasn't for the fact that the INSTANT something stupid passes in the US, EU legislators want to pass it as well. And since the EU is a vast metagovernment with a maze-like beurocracy that's straight out of the movie "Brazil", nobody's quite sure how it works or how to change things (or who is in control), so they just shrug and get on with their lives. It's pointless to even try to affect the EU. Therefore, it's better to nag at the source of the stupid laws, the US, where it's easier to locate who to blame (the neocons.)

[Princess Minako]

The Flag, technically speaking, is a decorative piece of cloth. But its a symbol, and should be respected as such. Its a symbol for what my great grandfathers came for, its a symbol for what my grandfather fought, and almost died, for 60 years ago, its a symbol for what one of my closest friends fights for every day. Its a symbol that reminds us, that men before us fought and died so that you can stand up and disgrace their memory, that YOU HAD THAT CHOICE. That we don't have a king, that we arn't under a reich.

Its a symbol that represents everything good and bad in this country. Its a symbol that beckoned Kaitou Ace's parents to leave a VERY GOOD LIFE in Kiev and come here with nothing because it was BETTER than money. It was freedom. It was not worrying that you said something wrong and would be taken away in the middle of the night. It is a symbol that you don't have to watch what you say, that just because you believe a certain way, or think certain things, you won't be hauled off to a remote place where your chance of survival is under 25%.

The flag means a lot of things to a lot of different people. I know for a fact my grandfather who was 3rd wave of D-day on Normandy, who fought for what he believed in, who received several commandations for his heroic acts in WWII, if he saw someone burning the flag he would be disgusted, and I agree.

If you feel so angry with the country you live in to burn the symbol for all that it stands for, leave. If you hate the country that much, that you would destroy something that people DIED to keep raised, leave. In the revolutionary war, people followed the flag. The first thing my grandfather did when he overtook a nazi camp, was raise the flag. Why? because its just a decorative piece of cloth, right? Or maybe because it means more.

The Goddess has Spoken

[Regex]

I say that because it's the picture I get, from media and from people living there. For an instance, how about that gay marriage thing? It's legal (albeit somewhat restricted by whether or not the priest wants to wed gay people or not) in many places in the world. Not so for the US of A.

Or marijuana for that matter, there are places in the world where you can smoke pot freely without the lawenforcement giving a damn.

Or prostitution, which also is a liberty that's denied to the american people.

Most Americans I've talked to about these things usually get a bit squirmish and say these rights aren't really rights, because it's not moral or it's bad for the people, but that doesen't waive the fact that they are liberties in many places of the world,... except the US.

The gay marriage is a hot issue, and from the way things are looking, it will be changed soon. Technically, it's a state-specific law, which is why it's legal in some areas and not others.

Marijuana is a drug, and drugs are controlled, to protect people. Since they haven't been able to find medicinal uses, they haven't made it legal. I don't see this as being a problem, but that's just me. I've seen the effects that marijuana has on people, both directly and indirectly. For the most part, I don't like the long term effects.

Prostitution.. I don't see why you would want that. Beyond the emotional damage it causes, it helps spread STD's far faster than if it wasn't allowed. Beyond that, I for one am glad I'm not getting prostitution spam when I drive downtown. If it's legal, that would happen a lot.. Perhaps this isn't enough justification to create a law, but the law is already there... I see no reason to change that one.


Ultimately, I don't see the point in having an issue with the last two. I've expressed my thoughts on the first earlier on in the thread... But the point is, things are changing, because people are working to get them changed.

[Princess Minako]

Gay marriage is legal in Massechusetts. Just an FYI. Its voted on by anyone who comes to the voters booth during the last election. Michigan voted on it last presidential election anyway. We're usually a blue state too, infact our state went to Kerry but still voted no on legalizing Gay Marriage... go figure

The Goddess has Spoken

[Eris]

Marijuana is a drug, and drugs are controlled, to protect people. Since they haven't been able to find medicinal uses, they haven't made it legal. I don't see this as being a problem, but that's just me. I've seen the effects that marijuana has on people, both directly and indirectly. For the most part, I don't like the long term effects.

Prostitution.. I don't see why you would want that. Beyond the emotional damage it causes, it helps spread STD's far faster than if it wasn't allowed. Beyond that, I for one am glad I'm not getting prostitution spam when I drive downtown. If it's legal, that would happen a lot.. Perhaps this isn't enough justification to create a law, but the law is already there... I see no reason to change that one.

Ultimately, I don't see the point in having an issue with the last two. I've expressed my thoughts on the first earlier on in the thread... But the point is, things are changing, because people are working to get them changed.

It DOESEN'T MATTER whether marijuana is a drug or prostitution is bad for you. Your subjective opinions about them are completely irrelevant. They are still (amongst others) liberties that the US lacks. Ergo, the US can't be the most liberated country in the world.

If you were to rank western countries based on liberties, the US wouldn't be last, but they wouldn't be number one either. Probably somewhere in the middle. It isn't overly restrictive, but it isn't overly liberal either.

[Matsumoto]

Marijuana is a drug, and drugs are controlled, to protect people. Since they haven't been able to find medicinal uses, they haven't made it legal. I don't see this as being a problem, but that's just me. I've seen the effects that marijuana has on people, both directly and indirectly. For the most part, I don't like the long term effects.

Whoa Whoa Whoa!!!!! Marijuana is Not a Drug its a plant, and if you just so happen to set it on fire....there's some effects. Drugs are things you gotta do stuff chemically to get an effect. If anything, tylenol should be banned. If see a guy smoke 3 blunts and pass out, you may think hes dead, but he ain't dead.....he'll wake up in about an hour and hungry enough to eat up everything in your house but if you take 13 tylenol...that will be your last headache

[Princess Minako]

uh it is a drug. Opium is a drug and its a straight derivative of a poppy. Just because its a plant doesn't mean its not a "Drug"

From Dictionary.com

b. any substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease in humans or other animals.

c. any article, other than food, intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of humans or other animals.

The definition of Marijuana from Dictionary.com as well

2. the dried leaves and female flowers of the hemp plant, used in cigarette form as a narcotic or hallucinogen.

So its a drug. Sorry, don't know what crap you've been fed, but you're wrong.

This is not the point of the thread. Either get back on topic or it gets closed.

The Goddess has Spoken

[Piper]

(insert a bajillion words of rubbish here.)

I am not going to sit here and debate with such a youngster. I'm not saying you do NOT own the right to feel with what you believe, what I am trying to imply is that should you not be HAPPY with your situation, either A) Make it better, or B) Leave. Two options that are of which, apply to ANY situation, not just this one.

Everything I have to say to your postmortem reply, Regex pretty much stated.

[Alice Lost]

Of course, if you decide to hate your country and decide to leave , you will probably realise how different life is in the country you decided to move away to. You will probably begin to miss your family and friends and also the activities you had when you were home. I'm sure there is a way to deal with the distance but for some people, when you leave and become homesick, you will probably realise how much you really had in your home country.

I think if you dont like the way your country is right now, the best option for you is to make it better and/or change it. In my opinion, burning a banner on the steps of a courthouse and yelling as loud as you can will never accomplish anything.

Alakina Paysinger

[Middy]

Its a symbol that represents everything good and bad in this country. Its a symbol that beckoned Kaitou Ace's parents to leave a VERY GOOD LIFE in Kiev and come here with nothing because it was BETTER than money. It was freedom. It was not worrying that you said something wrong and would be taken away in the middle of the night. It is a symbol that you don't have to watch what you say, that just because you believe a certain way, or think certain things, you won't be hauled off to a remote place where your chance of survival is under 25%.

A symbol of freedom... that just because you believe a certain way, or think cerain things, you won't be hauled off. Well when the law passes, you will be hauled off for expressing your beliefs in a certain way. A way which although it might upset people, is still a legal from of expression. The flag stands for freedom, but we are attempting to limit this freedom in one of the most absurd measures. The flag is symbol..of freedom, and the freedom, not the flag, should be respected as much.

I think if you dont like the way your country is right now, the best option for you is to make it better and/or change it. In my opinion, burning a banner on the steps of a courthouse and yelling as loud as you can will never accomplish anything.

When you get angry at your interent provider when your interent goes down, if you are like me you might curse time warner cable and slam your fists onto the table. Does this accomplish anything, yes it does, it vents anger and expresses dislike for time warner's service in the area. Does it help to solve the problem I have with time warner.. No it doesn't. Does that mean that this form of expression should be illegal.. OF COURSE NOT. And people don't always burn the flag to show hatred towards the country people. When people speak out against the war on terror, we don't say they hate America even though they might hand out posters that say something like Bush is ruining America. When you burn the flag you can be showing a particular dislike for a government policy, and your actions may be followed by calm words that are meant to help solve the problem.. Not screaming outside of a courhouse..

The sad thing is that if/when the law passes.. The burning of the flag will still be legal.. But only if it is done "properly". Basically the law does nothing towards the ending of flag burning, only the expression of ideals through the action. So the government is stopping you from protesting in an otherwise peaceful and lawful manner based only on your ideals. I feel strongly on the topic because I believe in principle. According to all previous principles of America.. The flag being burned is a perfectly legal form of protest. To make an exception tothat principle based on a silly understanding that somehow by burning the flag you show utmost disrespect for America..is proposterous.

[Princess Minako]

A symbol of freedom... that just because you believe a certain way, or think cerain things, you won't be hauled off. Well when the law passes, you will be hauled off for expressing your beliefs in a certain way. A way which although it might upset people, is still a legal from of expression. The flag stands for freedom, but we are attempting to limit this freedom in one of the most absurd measures. The flag is symbol..of freedom, and the freedom, not the flag, should be respected as much.

There is no such thing as absolute freedom. I never said the flag stood only for "Freedom" persay. I said it stood for the sacrifices that people have made so that it may fly high. So argument is moot.

When you get angry at your interent provider when your interent goes down, if you are like me you might curse time warner cable and slam your fists onto the table. Does this accomplish anything, yes it does, it vents anger and expresses dislike for time warner's service in the area. Does it help to solve the problem I have with time warner.. No it doesn't. Does that mean that this form of expression should be illegal.. OF COURSE NOT. And people don't always burn the flag to show hatred towards the country people. When people speak out against the war on terror, we don't say they hate America even though they might hand out posters that say something like Bush is ruining America. When you burn the flag you can be showing a particular dislike for a government policy, and your actions may be followed by calm words that are meant to help solve the problem.. Not screaming outside of a courhouse..

Your anger at, say, the present government, means that you should forget everything else that the flag has stood for, forget the people who have died to make sure that it CAN fly, and all the sacrifices that those that came before you made. The people that fought so that we can be a free soverign nation. This flag is older than just the present government, and it stand for much much more than just you dont like the "war on terror". THAT above all else should be respected. Its very narrowminded to burn it because you don't like something present, when it stands for our history....

Its not proposterous to say that by burning something that people have DIED and willingly given their lives to keep flying is incredibly disrespectful to America. Its disrespectful to every soldier who has marched onto the battle field, from the revolutionary war to today, it totally disrespects what this country has gone through, because its a representation of the country and its struggles.

The Goddess has Spoken

[Kristen]

It DOESEN'T MATTER whether marijuana is a drug or prostitution is bad for you. Your subjective opinions about them are completely irrelevant. They are still (amongst others) liberties that the US lacks. Ergo, the US can't be the most liberated country in the world.

I didn't really want to get involved here, so I'll make it clear now that I will not be responding publicly to [any other] comments involving what I'm saying here.



Anyway. I find that it's be ridiculously ignorant and a blatantly stupid thing to do, to legalize something that is physically and mentally harmful to a person in your country. You can't say that you care about your people and be a good leader when you're ready and willing to allow them to use/abuse drugs (no matter WHAT they are or how little of an effect they may have).



Prostitution I don't see as such a terrible ordeal other than the frequent, and easy, spreading of HIV/AIDS/ETC. If it were a "business" and was handled "correctly" (as correctly as one could assume for such a business), then I don't see why it'd be such a wretched thing. But fact of the matter is that it isn't. It really will never be and the same thing goes for drugs and the abuse of them. If marijuana were used for medical reasons (and thusly legalized), I wouldn't find that to be such a big deal, either. However, even with marijuana, you can easily become addicted. In terms of addiction, you can become addicted to anything. Biting your nails, nervous habits, drugs, sex, etc. It's the body (and/or mind's) craving and "need" for a thing. Again, it can occur with anything.



So back on the topic, I think as far as REASONABLE liberties go, America is one of the top choices here. I just can't believe that a country who counts "Oh, go ahead. Snort lines and smoke until you die from it" as rightful liberties, could possibly be a safe, adjustable or intelligently run countries.

Whoa Whoa Whoa!!!!! Marijuana is Not a Drug its a plant, and if you just so happen to set it on fire....there's some effects. Drugs are things you gotta do stuff chemically to get an effect. If anything, tylenol should be banned. If see a guy smoke 3 blunts and pass out, you may think hes dead, but he ain't dead.....he'll wake up in about an hour and hungry enough to eat up everything in your house but if you take 13 tylenol...that will be your last headache

I have to say that you're, technically, right. However, the form in which it is most popularly used is considered, by law, a drug form. Also, it's generally laced with other drugs, rather than just used by itself. Even sellers, who claim that it's straight, generally buy it mixed and don't know, or lace it themselves. You can never tell if someone is being honest or not (unless it's blatantly obvious (i.e. a lie detector, etc)) unless you're growing it yourself. This is another good reason why it's illegal to use the substance. Also, the fact that it's hallucinogen is a reason why it is illegal. It impairs human senses, including, but not limited to, dizziness, drowsiness, poor judgment, etc. You've seen those anti-drug commercials where the guys are at the fast food drive through and they hit the little girl on the bike because they are high, those things do happen and they happen all too frequently.



There are numerous [intelligent and very good] reasons why these things are outlawed and it's not because they want to rain on your parade or prevent you from anything. Quite the contrary, it's to keep you safe. Whether you find it fair or not-- I'd rather be alive and out of jail than intoxicated in any way.


On the actual topic of burning the American flag, I find it a horrendous thing to do. I've got grandparents who have fought and died in wars to protect that flag and "what it stands for". So, I must agree with Minako's last paragraph. It's disrespectful, I wouldn't forgive someone who had done it. You can dislike America, our laws, the government, etc all you wish to, but does it mean you have to do something such as burning the flag? No, you can protest, write letters, express yourself by other means other than being publicly disrespectful and disregarding those that do like this country and believe in what the flag "stands for". Personally, I believe that the morals [etc] that we say the flag stands for, should be something we as a people stand for, rather than have a symbol for it. But I'd never burn the flag, simply because I slightly disagree with it's representation.

[Middy]

Well I have already said everything I am going to say. If you feel that the flag is more important than what it represents than I guess I can't change your mind. Go ahead and pledge alliagence to a nation that plans to arrest people for anti-American thoughts.

Below is a excerpt from a cartoon on the subject matter that I found kinda funny.

"Now that Congress has finally recognized the crushing need and burning desire for the amendment of the Constitution to allow laws banning the desecrationof the American Flag, we can expect following additional amendments, truly deserving to be placed beside the Bill of Rights and the Emancipation Proclamation as pieces of timeless wisdom comprising the cornerstone of Democratic philosophy.

Amendment XXIX The Congress and the states shall have the power to prohibit the use of profanity in Patriotic Entertainment Parks
"Our Soldiers did not shed their blood so that some punk could flip the bird at a souvenier camera in the American Adventure pavilion at Epcot Center!"

Amendment XXX The Congress and the states shall have the power to prohibit the use of U.S. currency in recreational or wagering contests.
"Shall we have bills bearing the likeness of our revered first President sullied by the playing of "dollar poker" in tawdry bars?!!"

Amendment XXXI The Congress and the states shall have the power to prohibit the utterance of any modification of a patriotic song or pledge
"Allow me to read from the shocking transcript of a song overheard being sung by a third grader:
(ahem) 'This land is my land, this land ain't your land,
I've got a pop gun, and you don't got one.'"

Amendment XXXII The Congress and the states shall have the power to prohibit the intentional misspelling of American military ranks for commercial purposes.
"How many American Captains have to lose their lives defending the nation before we ban abominations like This?!" (Cap'n Crunch)"

[pfftlecakes]

I'd like to start by saying this:

I enjoy my freedom and although I sometimes disagree with how the country is being run, the things that are done in the name of my country and the things that go on within the country, I still am a citizen and have no plans of leaving because I know it's better here. I proudly wear red, white and blue within because I personally see no reason to wave the colors around on cloth. It's been said before, but I'll say it again: In my opinion, if you live here, you should enjoy living here and if you don't like it, change it, but this has little to do with flag burning.

The American Flag itself is a symbol of freedom that many wish to protect in it's entirety, the stars and stripes over the hearts of Americans as well as the physical decoration waving over houses, schools and places of business.

It's a matter of opinion whether or not burning a flag is disrespectful, but people do disrespectful things daily, but don't mean disrespect by doing them. This is something a little more extreme than simply spitting or cussing (etc.), but it doesn't take away from the fact that someone who is burning the flag in protest obviously has something to say.

However, I also think that flag-burning has lost some of it's symbolism from people who think it's cool to do because it does shock people (or has in the past) and this is not to mention those who burn flags for the sole purpose of disrespecting people.

So why even burn a flag? Because you can?

That's what's getting everyone who feels disrespected by this get upset and even angry that their symbol of freedom is being destroyed; just because someone can (and do without purpose). Isn't that why the law is being proposed in the first place? Because some people will do whatever they can to act out against a government they don't like?

Then again, if it's appropriate to burn a flag publicly, why not burn the flag? Of course, then we get into what is and is not appropriate, but I think if you're burning the American flag to piss someone off, I can assume it's inappropriate and a waste of a flag. You'd do better to urinate on their shoes.

<3

[Ichiro Matsuchani]

By reading most of the posts here, I can see that a few people just wanted to blast other posts, like mister postbuster up there. Too bad Democratic Republic and Democracy are pretty much the same thing with minor differences, so in truth, we are a democracy.

When it comes to burning flags, it is protected under freedom of speech, as ineffective as it is. There's really nothing more to say about it.

As for looking into those bad reps that were given to the post maker, I shall defend him in saying that he made no literal attacks on burning the US flag, it's just you're taking his flag burning as a reference to the burning of US flags in Iraq.

It's almost a shame.

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

@idoll: Diesel's point was that when a country prevents its citizens from enjoying the things they want to enjoy, which don't affect others, it is suppressing liberties. Just because you believe it's ok to do so doesn't make it any less a suppression,

Also, THC, the active ingredient of cannabis, is most assuredly a drug. Just because a hallucinogenic compound comes from a living thing doesn't make it any less a drug. It's not 'technically right'.


Edit:
Reading my Reps...

Why should you be disappointed in me? Because I stand up for others right to protest, even in ineffective ways??? The first amendment is meaningless if it only defends the forms of speech and peaceable protest YOU approve of. The first amendment exists entirely to protect what you don't want to hear.

[Anie]

I feel the same way about flag burning that I feel about abortion. I would never get one myself, but others have the right to do so if they feel they need to.

Making flag burning illegal is a slippery slope to limiting our freedoms even more than they already have been with recently enacted laws.

I didn't join the army so people could use the excuse that burning the flag is being disrespectful to those who have died for it and thus it should be made illegal; no, I joined the army to protect those who feel the need to express themselves in anyway, be it by burning a flag, worshiping satan, eating fattening foods....

The flag has become so venerated it is to the point of worship - I believe this country would be a better place if people could see past the outward physical things and focus on the ideals and foundations that this country was founded on and has been made great by.

God bless America and the freedoms it gives us.

[Yugure's Goddess]

Ok people. For starters, Ragex, I didn't say that that's what I would do to protest but I certainly wouldn't care or, rather, wouldn’t do anything to stop it if some one else thought it appropriate to use those measures, alright? That's what I was saying.

Oh and I know my parents made mistakes when they were young, one of which being myself. But does that mean I or my brothers and sister deserve it as well because my parents were immature at a time in their lives when their hormones were raging and drugs and abuse screamed at them around every corner? I shouldn’t think so! I may deserve many fates for the things that I have done but nothing for the things my parents have done. So that point you made is completely irrelevant.(well it was to begin with anyway…) Whose paying for the internet? My parents of course. 10 measly dollars a month for a crappy internet connection. Sure that sounds like I’m just beating you for attention or sympathy, or whatever you can think want to think but you know what? I don’t want your pity! I half-way don’t even care if you believe me! It was just used to make a point no matter which way you try to point it, alright, bucko?

And trust me, I LOVE this country and what the flag USED to stand for. But from what this place has become, the flag has become little more than a ball of thread to me.

This country has done a HUGE regression from its "noble roots". Sure the people who started this country had noble and happy goals in mind.(As half of them herded their slaves, whipping them like animals, to pull up their cotton and tobacco.) But what they wanted is not what it has become. It has failed. It was only a few decades ago that the final rights of all individuals including women and minorities were amended to the constitution and even now after all that has been done there are still PLENTY of people in this country (a lot of them surprisingly being "patriots" AND voters) who don't believe those people deserve those rights. There are still plenty holding on to their petty discriminatory attitudes. What kind of country can this be when it's a DEBATE in CONGRESS whether a certain group of peoples deserves any rights based simply on a private detail that has little to no effect on anyone else? Really. This place is not all it's cracked up to be.

To say that Georgy cares about this country is dumb. Pretty much everyone in congress cares nothing for the rest of the country. They just pretend they do so you'll keep them in place, (That also is an illusion to make you believe you really have a say in what's going on up there, which you don't, really.) so they can keep that nice well-rounded check in their back pockets. And the best example of this must be their wonderful response to Katrina. But of course *this place is wonderful*.

The flag has been sullied and weathered down over the years to mean nothing more than laziness and rich pigs that run EVERYTHING!

Such a great country. This country that views keeping a war going and gays unmarried as more important than keeping its children more educated and its citizens in good health. Such a great country. This country that keeps electing officials who base all their views about POLITICAL issues on what the bible says when the church and state are SUPPOSED TO BE SEPARATE!

oh yes. I, apologize you want me to show patriotism? ok then, allow me to recite my slightly modified pledge to my favorite ball of yarn.
{Original for those who don’t know it (the text in parentheses is me not the pledge):
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of America
And to the republic for which it stands
One nation under (ha ha) GOD
indivisible with liberty and justice for all (<<<what a joke!)}

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the country that destroyed itself. I pledge allegiance to the flag of a country that would rather dance around a problem and distract you from it with pointless crap then actually deal with it. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the country that is currently in the slow process of banning free speech, starting with TV and the radio. I pledge allegiance to the flag of a country that thought killing people was more important than saving people. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the country with some of the least educated children in the world. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the country that can’t keep ONE city from going underwater in one stupid storm but is trying to build a 700-mile long fence to keep people from Mexico out. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the country that is the richest in the world yet still has one of the most disgustingly staggering rates of poverty more so than most other countries that are poorer than this one. I pledge allegiance to the flag of 50 states of capitalistic pigs.

I pledge allegiance to flag that now stands for the blind unity of capitalism
And to the despotism which it is becoming
One nation governed under the bible
And Divisible by 446 with decreasing liberties and injustice for all (except the wealthy, of course.)

Oh and that number in there is not a random number. I did research and it’s based on three numbers: those in congress, those on the supreme court, and the president and vice president! XP

Sure pledge some more. Keeping pledging, I’ll pledge with you. We’ll all pledge to the flag and support this country and in the mean time watch as the US brings the world to an end. I know you guys are patriots and all and also that you guys see a lot of the bad things that are happening in this country, however, you seem to, almost, love it blindly. I see enough mistakes in congress to want to just wipe the whole board of Representatives clean in the white house, congress, etc.(as in kill) and start over with new people.

No, not rich people with great assets, “better education” and an average lower than mine. No, not somebody who knows everything about politics (as those who know everything or next to everything about some particular subject tend to abuse the crap out of it, especially if it gets them a nice check.) but some one with good knowledge of its workings, and whose mind is truly set on making this place better instead of filling up their wallet or improving their public image. Some one who is honest about their dark little deeds and knows what it’s like to be in the shoes of the suffering instead some one pretending they know what’s going on when they’ve never seen it or experienced it for themselves. Normal citizens.

And I shall leave you all with a couple of my favorite quotes (just a couple):

“It’s called the American Dream, ‘cause you have to be asleep to believe it.”
– George Carlin (2005 stand-up performance: “Life is Worth Losing”)

“Weapons not food, not homes, not shoes
Not need, just feed the war cannibal animal
I walk to the corner to the rubble that used to be a library
Line up to the mind cemetery, now
What we don't know keeps the contracts alive and movin'
They don't gotta burn the books they just remove 'em
While arms warehouses fill as quick as the cells”
– Rage Against the Machine’s “Bulls on Parade”

*bows and steps back*

love
dani
dude

[lucky leprachaun]

IT SHOULD BE BANNED!!!
1. IT'S DISGRACING THE SYMBOL OF THE UNITED STATES!
2. IT SHOWS THAT YOU DO NOT ACCEPT AND REJECT THE FREEDOM OF THE U.S.
3. IT SAYS THAT YOU HATE THIS COUNTRY.
4. IT ANNOUNCES THAT THE U.S. IS A DISCRACE!
5. IT DISRESPECTS ALL OF THE SOLDIERS THAT DIED IN ORDER TO DEFEND AND CREATE THE RIGHTS OF THIS COUNTRY.

AND BESIDES, ONLY THE ARMY, BOY SCOUTS, AND A VERY FEW OTHER ORGANIZATIONS ARE PERMITTED BY LAW TOU RETIRE THE FLAGS IN HONORIFIC CEROMONIES.

So basically it already is banned and illegal unless you are a certified member of the permitted organizations.