American Schools In Crisis

[Silver_Star_of_Darkness]

Every 9 seconds a student in the United States of America drops out of school.

Did anyone watch Oprah on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 and Wednesday, April 12, 2006?

I did and I was amazed by the amount of students dropping out, the conditions of our schools, and the amount of students that are not ready for college.

[Capernicus]

Yeah, I saw it. Didn't surpirse me so much, I don't exactly live in a great neighborhood. Students are becoming more and more lazy, and they don't do the work like they should, so the state has to lower standards or flunk half the students. Then the kids get lazy with those standards, and it's a repeating process. Students don't care, principals don't care, and politicians only pretend to care. The only thing that surpirsed me was the degree to which they've stopped caring. What kind of person let's a school get that bad?

And that No Child Left Behind thing, it's bull. It's putting too much emphasis on tests rather then learning. It's like a miniature SAT (and we all know that test is crap). Colleges don't JUST look at test scores, they look at extracurricular activites, family history, writing skills, etc. So why is the government only looking at test scores?

[Silver_Star_of_Darkness]

I hate standerized testing. The schools arealy give you enough tests plus you have the state standerized testing and now with more standerized testing it is overwhelming.

[Capernicus]

Yeah, standardized testing is a real pain, but some kids need it. Look at the Exit Exam in California. It's so freaking easy, the problems are 8th grade level. You take it midway through your sophomore year. So, bascially, you only need to be a sophomore to graduate. >.< That test needs to be harder, because honestly some real idiots passed it. I'm amazed that everyone didn't pass it, it was that easy. Essay: write what you think about clouds (okay, not exactly the prompt, but it was something similar).

We need to toughen up on these kids, but not necessarily through standard tests (that are very ineffective). We need to hire better teachers. But no one with much talent goes into the teaching profession, there's no real incentve. So the government should spend more on education so they can increase teacher's wages so as to attract people to that profession. The teachers benefit, the kids benefit, society will benefit, the economy willl benefit, and the government will benefit.

So why has Bush done nothing to help???

[Keitaru-san]

one word discpline.

if you want i'll explain

[Keitaru-san]

hmmm someone is ticked of ok i will explain, it may sound harsh or not fair but its whats best known for future.

first this days everything seems possible and easy and most peoplelose interest in studying hard to achive some certificate i,e i want to be a ict manager, but nowdays this job is everywhere and they do free training for week or two, so i don't really need to study hard or even pass the subject, thats that.

second thank to lots of agencies, social workers and other stupid department providing too much protection for childrens, they become to soft and this gives them the idea of why i need my parent shouting and punishing when i can be free off them,
(don't get me wrong the agencies are good and they do protect children from abusive parents, but hey they gone to far, now you can't even poke your child). and thats the discpline of listening to your parents, which include of study and do homework than do play outside or do as you wish and stuff. (oh don't take that i like to hit my kids or anything, my parent did punished me with slap or so but that was it next time i would listen to them, thanks to them i don't do stupid things, i don't do drug and other think but i still free to think for my own and now im grown up they do tell me stuff but still i do as i wish).

thirdlyschools have been soften tooooo much, i remember on time i used to go to school on 5th grade (a year befor high school), i had study maths (complicated stuffs not stupid easy thing give you now), history which i loved it and i had like to know the date of specific events, date of birth of the kings, who brought down the kings, what happen in world wars, when and who discovered america, and yes i knew all of that and i know most of it now, but since the school are easing on the education student get lazier and lazier on which i did some of my 5th grade work to get to college and i laughed my butt off. and here is the discipline of hard studying.

any other question Ms. Smart?

[akiko_kalla]

Yeah, standardized testing is a real pain, but some kids need it. Look at the Exit Exam in California. It's so freaking easy, the problems are 8th grade level. You take it midway through your sophomore year. So, bascially, you only need to be a sophomore to graduate. >.< That test needs to be harder, because honestly some real idiots passed it. I'm amazed that everyone didn't pass it, it was that easy. Essay: write what you think about clouds (okay, not exactly the prompt, but it was something similar).

We need to toughen up on these kids, but not necessarily through standard tests (that are very ineffective). We need to hire better teachers. But no one with much talent goes into the teaching profession, there's no real incentve. So the government should spend more on education so they can increase teacher's wages so as to attract people to that profession. The teachers benefit, the kids benefit, society will benefit, the economy willl benefit, and the government will benefit.

So why has Bush done nothing to help???

Well, there shouldn't really be standardized tests to begin with as they are terribly unreliable and only stress the teaching staff and students. As for people not caring, there are a great many who do care. I can't tell you the number of extra hours teachers put in and the things teachers and the principals do to try to help students. My district has increased our dropout rate from like 30 or 40% to 70% in the past five years. It didn't happen because people don't care.

The problem isn't better teachers, it's better resources. I teach in the hallway, on a stage with PE going on on the other side of the curtain, in the cafeteria...and if those places are taken I teach outside. We had a business give one of my schools money to buy dictionaries because every classroom did not have a set. The focus is totally on math and reading, because of those tests, and not on learning and problem solving.

Don't get me wrong, there are teachers who shouldn't be teaching and there are people who don't care, but most of the time this is not the case. It is however, the common perception. Those who go into teaching go into it knowing we are going to be paid poorly for what we do, knowing we will have to spend hundreds of dollars to reliscense, and knowing we are going to have to put up with things like No Child Left Behind. We don't do it because it's convient, we do it because we want to help students learn and improve their lives.

The problem is, as you said, many leave the profession because of the toll it takes on your health, your life, and your finances. I have to work a second job and a few odd jobs on the side to make ends meet because I teach. And yet I still have to make sure my kids pass the assessments, perform up to their level, behave, and keep myself "highly qualified." The students where I teach often don't have food, electricity, etc. (Although oddly they have Nike shoes and Hilfiger jeans...but that's a different rant) Their parents can't help them with homework because they often don't understand it, nor do they see the point of it. They need glasses, but can't afford them, they need someone to tell them to do their homework but their parent(s) works nights, etc. Definately not the ideal situation for learning.

I have always believed that to educate the student many times you need to educate the parent first. Going to college is something that simply doesn't enter their minds. Only getting out when you're 18 and supporting yourself does. Many of my students are told they aren't going/don't need college. I won't get into the psychological specifics of poverty, but if someone wants to discuss it let me know. You should see a child's face light up when they are told they can go to college, that they can come back and help their community afterward, and that they should be proud of themselves. A teacher teaches so much more than what is on the lesson plan and all we can hope for in return is that it reaches some of the students. This combined with continued teacher tests/requirements/stupid hoops to jump through, leads to teacher burn out and the ones who do care struggle to try to teach what really needs to be taught and appease the tests. After all, if we don't pass the tests, the teachers will be removed and replaced with others who will magically make students pass them. o_O We actually had a teacher send a letter home asking about help with homework and he had parents write back "there's no point to homework," "they don't need to do homework," "I don't help with homework," etc.

Many students care about graduation, but they lack the social support to continue to it and beyond. Think about the type of character it takes to leave everything you know, everything you've been taught that matters, and be criticized for thinking you are "better than others," and still go through with it. Yes schools are in trouble, but not because of any one group. The parents, students and teachers need to work together. Parents need to follow through, students need to take responsibility and teachers need to uphold their standards and remain positive. If any one is lacking, the student will have much more difficulty. Bush needs to wake up, as do many in this nation, and realize it is not solely the teacher's responsibility for the student to succeed. I have no control of the student once s/he leaves my classroom, so do not hold me accountable for it. Do not hold me accountable for your student never doing assignments designed specifically to help his/her individual needs. Do not blame me for his lack of respect and poor behavior.

But then, this is a much deeper problem than just schools. The education system is only a reflection of society not wanting to take responsibility for itself and becoming complacent it its lifestyle. It's too easy to say how horrible things are and point the blame elsewhere...it's much more difficult to actually stand up, take responsibility and work to fix the problem.

[BoldMushroom]

...i had like to know the date of specific events, date of birth of the kings, who brought down the kings, what happen in world wars, when and who discovered america...

Right, because as we all know, memorizing where, when, and between whom the War of Saint-Sardos was fought will be an essential detail for me to know ten years down the road.

There are certainly better ways to promote positive study habits than by applying a brute force mindset. So, naturally, I'm in favor of Capernicus' "everyone will benefit" idea. (EDIT: Or akiko_kalla's multitude of ideas.)

[Capernicus]

The problem isn't better teachers, it's better resources. I teach in the hallway, on a stage with PE going on on the other side of the curtain, in the cafeteria...and if those places are taken I teach outside. We had a business give one of my schools money to buy dictionaries because every classroom did not have a set. The focus is totally on math and reading, because of those tests, and not on learning and problem solving.

Don't get me wrong, there are teachers who shouldn't be teaching and there are people who don't care, but most of the time this is not the case. It is however, the common perception. Those who go into teaching go into it knowing we are going to be paid poorly for what we do, knowing we will have to spend hundreds of dollars to reliscense, and knowing we are going to have to put up with things like No Child Left Behind. We don't do it because it's convient, we do it because we want to help students learn and improve their lives.

The problem is, as you said, many leave the profession because of the toll it takes on your health, your life, and your finances. I have to work a second job and a few odd jobs on the side to make ends meet because I teach. And yet I still have to make sure my kids pass the assessments, perform up to their level, behave, and keep myself "highly qualified." The students where I teach often don't have food, electricity, etc. (Although oddly they have Nike shoes and Hilfiger jeans...but that's a different rant) Their parents can't help them with homework because they often don't understand it, nor do they see the point of it. They need glasses, but can't afford them, they need someone to tell them to do their homework but their parent(s) works nights, etc. Definately not the ideal situation for learning.

I didn't know you were a teacher!!!

Akiko, I did not mean to sound as though I was blaming the teachers. I find the teaching profession (most people don't even see it as a prefession anymore!) is among the most noble a person can have. I want very much to be a math teacher, and I'm working on my B.A. right now.

It saddens me that, yes, a lack of parental encouragement it partly to blame for our falling graduation rates. Listen to the speech of any great person, and you'll hear him/her thank their parents for driving them to succeed, for encouraging them, for making the time to help with homework and providing them the proper supplies and resources, etc. So why has so many of the last generation stopped caring about education? Perhaps it was the '70s and '80s (time periods marked by "feel good" efforts rather than real results) that helped to curb the drive to succeed in school. But, like you said, we cant just blame them. Society has a whole has seem to forgotten the importance of high school and college diplomas, parodoxically at a time when they are of the most importance. I'll never understand why that is.

I personally am very driven to not only succeed, but to be the best. Money doesn't concern me so much as the amount of knowledge, wisdom, and experience I am able to amass (call it personal pride, or hubris lol). I would love very much to be the smartest person in the world. But what use is that knowledge after I die? Can't take it with me....well, I don't know if I can, but probably not. I'd much rather pass it on to the next generation, and hopefully influence them enough to want to succeed and learn as well.

Think I'll succeed at that? lol

[akiko_kalla]

Oh, I didn't take offense so no worries. ^_^ I was just replying to the comment because there are many people who would have said that and meant something different. (ie. Teachers are overpaid for example.) It really saddens me as well to see so many students falling through the cracks, and honestly if I leave the profession it will be because no one is trying to really address the problem, only the symptom. So yeah, I'm kind of fed up with society in that respect as well. You'd think people would want their children to have a better life, but people have different views I guess.

I guess my thing is many students DO want to be successful, but they don't know how and the other issues filter in that makes it difficult to learn. Many of them are raised in communities where education is not all that important, so sadly it becomes less important in their lives. As for if you achieve your dreams...as long as you are willing to work towards them and not give up, you can achieve whatever you want...if I believed differently I don't think I'd be much of a teacher. Besides, speaking from experience the student who puts forth the effort will be more successful and usually happier than the student who puts forth little effort but has the talent. If you happen to have both that's always a plus though!

[Annik]

Every 9 seconds a student in the United States of America drops out of school.

One thing can definitely be said about drop-outs; they've got brilliant timing.


I've been talking to a boy from Hiroshima who came to the United States about five or so years ago after having been out of school for an entire year (minus the first two weeks) and told he would have to repeat the grade - there was no way he was going to do that, so he decided that America wasn't so bad after all (His family had moved here a year before he did; he didn't come with them because he thought Americans were scary and rude. Now he doesn't want to go back.) and finished out High School here and is now going to the same college as myself. His opinion on American schools? Compared to the ones in Japan, a freaking breeze.

I mean, I got through fine by flunking half of it and getting thrown out of the other half.

I'm on Academic Probation (as well as Progress Probation) with the college at the moment, but it doesn't mean anything. They give you two extra semesters to get off it (where you have to take and pass all your classes - no dropping) and even then, from what I gather, it's unlikely they'll kick you out.

They're getting soft. (Which is good for me, actually.)

[Keitaru-san]

Right, because as we all know, memorizing where, when, and between whom the War of Saint-Sardos was fought will be an essential detail for me to know ten years down the road.

There are certainly better ways to promote positive study habits than by applying a brute force mindset. So, naturally, I'm in favor of Capernicus' "everyone will benefit" idea. (EDIT: Or akiko_kalla's multitude of ideas.)

punishing doesn't mean using brute it can be other stuf like no allowence for the week, or no playing with game console for a week( i used slapping, which is not slapping really more of tapping with bit of pressure).

but i think school are the one who should be blamed really because everyone can get to college and stuff, without having really good grades.

they should toughen up the entry exams.

p.s my mom told me if i pass the highschool with good grades she will buy me a playstation, which i did and got my ps1, there a motivation.

[Ωmega]

Well, I dotn watch Operah, but I know there are hundreds of students who drop out daily. I work at a home school. Basically a student who has dropped out can sign up here, pay a tutition, and earn a highschool deploma. Not all our stundents drop out because they did bad in school. We get so many thank you letters saying how they had to get a job to support their mother, or they we hospitilized for a long time (and couldnt possibly make up all the work), they were constantly moving because of their parents jobs...just countless reasons why students drop out. Its not like they drop out because they want to, many do so because they HAVE to

[Keitaru-san]

well, if i wanna be really logic, anyone can study hard even if their parrent moving around or any other problem, but that requieres lots of sacrifice and i don't think most teenagers are willing to do so.

[Ωmega]

well, if i wanna be really logic, anyone can study hard even if their parrent moving around or any other problem, but that requieres lots of sacrifice and i don't think most teenagers are willing to do so.

Excatly. But many of our students have to get a job to help support their family, which usually is during the time they need to be in class...so they drop out. Its sad really, but there are other companies like the one I work at who offer the same thing, so people in those situations can get their diploma at their own pace

[Crimson Phoenix]

punishing doesn't mean using brute it can be other stuf like no allowence for the week, or no playing with game console for a week( i used slapping, which is not slapping really more of tapping with bit of pressure).

but i think school are the one who should be blamed really because everyone can get to college and stuff, without having really good grades.

they should toughen up the entry exams.

p.s my mom told me if i pass the highschool with good grades she will buy me a playstation, which i did and got my ps1, there a motivation.

I wish I'd had that kinda motivation... my motive was simple: pass school, or get kicked out onto the street (and as I hit 18 one month after graduation, you can see how it was a GOOD idea for me to pass). and as to dicipline.. I had none, and I passed wirth flying colors, my homework was actually done BEFORE I had to go home, and my terst results were near-perfect (even though my english teacher didnt much like the really short essays, he gave me full marks because I hit every point he wanted).

[BoldMushroom]

punishing doesn't mean using brute it can be other stuf like no allowence for the week, or no playing with game console for a week( i used slapping, which is not slapping really more of tapping with bit of pressure).

I didn't mean literally applying brute force punishment. I don't think a parent should punch their child across the room, Albert Wesker-style.

Brute force is a figure of speech. I was talking about your suggestion for improving study habits - by burdening the students with so much unnecessary work that they are forced to study until their eyes bleed every night. I doubt that would be very effective, and it would be incredibly stressful.

As I said, there are much more effective methods of promoting good study habits...

p.s my mom told me if i pass the highschool with good grades she will buy me a playstation, which i did and got my ps1, there a motivation.

...like this one.

[Ωmega]

p.s my mom told me if i pass the highschool with good grades she will buy me a playstation, which i did and got my ps1, there a motivation.

thats it?? I got a car when I graduated form high school....but it really is great motivation...well, I guess it helped that I liked school, and am furthering my education by attending college

[akiko_kalla]

but i think school are the one who should be blamed really because everyone can get to college and stuff, without having really good grades.

A school can't make you do your homework or pay attention in class. Ultimately the only person who can decide to do the work and learn is the student. The school and parents are the support system. Don't get me wrong, there are some things that need to change--like Out of school suspension, explain how that is a bad punishment--but you can't force a student to do something s/he refuses to do. It's even worse if the parent blames the teacher and allows the student to accept no responsibility for his/her own actions and learning.

[The_Azn_Effect]

I missed the episode, then I went "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!"

But I saw the episode after, Part II, and caught up, yay!

Yes it is sad that this is happening to our Nation, our USA! But when you face reality and logic, not much change can be done to this Nation in its current condition, we need to unite as people, and also end the freaken war so we can start using money to fix schools. And also what I heard is true about school and people:

Parents blame teachers, teachers blame parents. Colleges/Universities blame High Schools, High Schools blame Middle Schools, Middle Schools blame Elementary School, and Elementary just blames it off of People.

To fix the crisis is to create some kind of campaign that informs the public about this epidemic and offers some kind of job to people who can begin to make change in school.

[Capernicus]

And also what I heard is true about school and people:

Parents blame teachers, teachers blame parents. Colleges/Universities blame High Schools, High Schools blame Middle Schools, Middle Schools blame Elementary School, and Elementary just blames it off of People.

To fix the crisis is to create some kind of campaign that informs the public about this epidemic and offers some kind of job to people who can begin to make change in school.

I think it goes more like this:

Students blame colleges.
Colleges blame high school.
High schools blame middle school.
Middle schoosl blame elementary school.
Elementary schools blame preschool.
Preschools blame parents.
Parents blame society.
Society blames politicians.
Politicians blame students.

It's a perfect circle. I, on the other hand, blame my father for just about everything that goes wrong in my life, and that includes my C in Japanese.

[akiko_kalla]

Haha, well I totally agree this is an issue of stop placing the blame and start owning up to your own responsibility in whatever compacity you serve the future of this country. However, I don't think politicians really blame students...they blame teachers. NCLB is a good example of that, and the continuing stupid grade cards and standardized tests. The truth is, it would take a lot of work on all parts to do things they best way and schools simply can't do it without the funding. Parents don't want to pay more for "a school that can't teach my kid" or "a job where they get summers off." But the politicians need the parents' votes, so they put the pressure on schools to perform on these tests not because they are accurate, but because they are widely understood. Parents do not like change for the most part.

We recently changed our grade card and the community has been in an uproar ever since. They are trying to fit the new grade card into the A-B-C-D-F grade card and it doesn't work. Even after having it explained, they still dislike it. There are good and bad things about the new system, but that's a moot point.

What it boils down to is the amount of money, time and effort needed to improve the system is not something most people are willing to give at this point. It's too easy to fire teachers instead of dealing with your screaming child or admitting your child lied about homework. The government continues to cut funding while at the same time mandating schools follow new protocol and etc. That means for the school to recieve any funding it must follow the mandate, but the government is paying less than the previous year. The school and teachers are still expected to do what the mandate says. If it requires training either the teachers or the district must pay for it. If it requires new books, it comes from that reduced budget. Everyone wants it to get better, but so long as they only address the symptom, the illness will never be cured.

[German_Sniper9]

those stupid tests.. i dont care for..
i just bomb it <.< ill pick random answers,
i think the SAT and the NRIT are stupid tests
and i also hate the FCAT -.- too many tests
<.< i thought about dropping out and other
thing is i have a teacher that is sexiest -.-
she'll favor the women side (no offence)
but that makes the girls in my class get away
alot more...
<.< i was rat tailed (hit with a swirled towel)
and i yelled out in pain and she kicked me out
as for the girl, got to stay with no punishment
teachers now n days suck... >.> so that could also
add to the number of drop outs

[Capernicus]

those stupid tests.. i dont care for..
i just bomb it <.< ill pick random answers,
i think the SAT and the NRIT are stupid tests
and i also hate the FCAT -.- too many tests
<.< i thought about dropping out and other
thing is i have a teacher that is sexiest -.-
she'll favor the women side (no offence)
but that makes the girls in my class get away
alot more...
<.< i was rat tailed (hit with a swirled towel)
and i yelled out in pain and she kicked me out
as for the girl, got to stay with no punishment
teachers now n days suck... >.> so that could also
add to the number of drop outs

Master Chad, I have long since concluded that you are an idiot.

How can you use one not-perfect teacher as a basis for this discussion? Like Akiko said, there are some really awesome teachers out there (and I can name a few off the top of my head). All I can say is get over it.

[ShadowtheWarWolf]

Wow, didn't know that. I never watch Oprah.