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Thread: U&I - K-ON (correction)

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    Default U&I - K-ON (correction)

    http://www.animelyrics.com/anime/kons2/ui.htm

    There's only one outright mistake here:

    KIMI ga inai to ayamarenai yo
    KIMI no koe ga kikitai yo
    KIMI no egao ga mirereba sore dake de iinda yo

    If you're not around I can't take it anymore
    I long for the sound of your voice
    Just being able to see you smile that would mean everything to me
    'ayamaru' is "apologize", so this entire stanza is about how Ui doesn't need to apologize for being away.

    Something like:
    Don't apologize for being away from home
    I just wanted to hear your voice again
    Just seeing your smile again is enough
    The rest is mainly some awkward English.

    Where's the sugar and soy sauce?
    this is more idiomatically:
    Where do we keep the sugar and soy sauce?
    If you guys want, I can retranslate the rest of the song to flow better in English, but I don't know if that's frowned upon or anything.

    The footer has some "the curtains were blue" level of analysis, but it's not a big deal to keep in since it's not outright wrong.

    On the other hand:

    omoi yo todoke[1]

    Dedicated to U[1]

    [1] Literally "Oh feelings, be known!". I put my own artistic touch in.
    "Be known" isn't particularly 'literal' (i.e. it's not particularly faithful to the original Japanese). "Todoku" is "to reach", so "Oh feelings, please get through" would probably be a more literal translation (and incidentally also sounds better in English).

    This isn't the only translation of U&I I've seen that has an "artistic touch" for "Omoi yo, todoke" because it's not really a very common thing to say in English. Still, though, I'd recommend what I said:
    Oh feelings, please get through
    I think it's good enough not to need an awkward "artistic touch".
    Last edited by Serei; 10-30-2015 at 02:40 AM.

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    Default Re: U&I - K-ON (correction)

    @AzureDark , your thoughts?

    (@Serei , when we get a translation correction for something by a user who's still active on the site, we ping them to see if they want to do their own improved translation and/or defend their choices. AzureDark hasn't been around in a few months, so I'm not sure if he'll see this, but he's still been active recently enough that I'd like to give him the chance; if he doesn't respond in a few weeks, we'll proceed from there.)

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    Default Re: U&I - K-ON (correction)

    Quote Originally Posted by Serei View Post
    http://www.animelyrics.com/anime/kons2/ui.htm

    There's only one outright mistake here:



    'ayamaru' is "apologize", so this entire stanza is about how Ui doesn't need to apologize for being away.

    Something like:
    Don't apologize for being away from home
    I just wanted to hear your voice again
    Just seeing your smile again is enough
    How did you get "Don't apologize for being away from home" from キミがいないと謝れないよ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Serei View Post
    "Be known" isn't particularly 'literal' (i.e. it's not particularly faithful to the original Japanese). "Todoku" is "to reach"
    届く's definition, from 日本国語大辞典:

    (1)さし出したものが先方に着く。こちらから送った物が向こうに着く。
    (2)あるところにまで達する。及ぶ。
    (3)こちらの心が先方に通じる。転じて、反応が現われる。目的を達する。成功する。
    (4)注意や調査などが十分にゆきわたる。行きとどく。間に合う。
    (5)はげむ。
    Last edited by Hinamawari; 11-02-2015 at 08:43 PM.

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    Default Re: U&I - K-ON (correction)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hinamawari View Post
    How did you get "Don't apologize for being away from home" from キミがいないと謝れないよ?
    キミ = you

    いる = to be, to exist (animate)

    キミがいない = you aren't [here]

    謝る = to apologize

    謝れない = to apologize (potential, negative) = [you] can't apologize

    キミがいないと謝れない = [you] can't apologize that you're not [here]

    よ = generic intensifier

    キミがいないと謝れないよ ~= (one possible interpretation) you shouldn't apologize for not being here

    "Don't apologize for being away from home" is my idea of what a native English speaker might say to convey that idea.

    届く's definition, from 日本国語大辞典:

    (1)さし出したものが先方に着く。こちらから送った物が向こうに着く。
    (2)あるところにまで達する。及ぶ。
    (3)こちらの心が先方に通じる。転じて、反応が現われる。目的を達する。成功する。
    (4)注意や調査などが十分にゆきわたる。行きとどく。間に合う。
    (5)はげむ。
    "Be known" isn't a great translation of definition 3, either.

    Really, the phrase "literal translation" isn't great since it implies that there exist translations that preserve concepts exactly between languages, which there generally aren't. There's really just a spectrum of translations "more faithful to the source material" and "less faithful to the source material", and there's no such thing as 100% faithful.

    To be faithful, it helps to keep in mind that words have denotations and connotations and dictionaries don't always say everything about connotations. To get an idea of a word's connotations, it can help to treat each individual definition as only part of the picture.

    But I called out "be known" because it's a particularly unfaithful translation of 届け. A good test of faithfulness is to translate back and see what you'd get; for "be known", this'd be something like 知らせろ. 届く carries a connotation that the English word "reach" captures pretty well: that the process of getting through being emphasized (not the result), and that the process is 'reaching' (i.e. that it's not easy).

    I recommended "please get through" because it has much more similar connotations, namely that the process of 'getting through' is important.
    Last edited by Serei; 11-02-2015 at 11:00 PM.

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    Default Re: U&I - K-ON (correction)

    キミがいないと謝れないよ means "I can't apologize [to you] when you're not here." と is not the quotation marker here; it's the conjunction と. If you're using a quotation before 謝る, it has to be an actual apology, such as "ごめんなさい."

    "Be known" isn't a great translation, but it's close enough to warrant being called a literal translation. I prefer "please get through" myself, but what I'm trying to say is, the original translator was not wrong in saying that it's a literal translation, and to refute that by saying that 届く only means "to reach" is to impose too narrow a definition on that word.

    Translating back to see what you'd get is not a good test of faithfulness. Again, you're thinking too narrowly. There isn't always only one way to express one single idea in any language. Furthermore, the most common way to express one concept in a language does not necessarily have to correspond to the most common way to express that same concept in another language, meaning that while one can translate 届け as "be known," there's no requirement for the translation of "be known" in Japanese to be 届け.

    If you re-read the definitions I gave above, you'll notice that the meaning of 届く in this case is the third definition, which emphasizes the result, not the process. Of course, that doesn't mean we can't translate it as "to get through" in English, but your understanding of the connotation of the original word is mistaken.

    Again, I agree with your suggested revision. However, I disagree with your criticism of the original translator.

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    Default Re: U&I - K-ON (correction)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hinamawari View Post
    キミがいないと謝れないよ means "I can't apologize [to you] when you're not here." と is not the quotation marker here; it's the conjunction と. If you're using a quotation before 謝る, it has to be an actual apology, such as "ごめんなさい."
    Now that you've spelled it out, I see how it could be interpreted that way.

    "Be known" isn't a great translation, but it's close enough to warrant being called a literal translation.
    I guess I don't think it's close enough. Can we just drop this?

    I prefer "please get through" myself, but what I'm trying to say is, the original translator was not wrong in saying that it's a literal translation, and to refute that by saying that 届く only means "to reach" is to impose too narrow a definition on that word.

    Translating back to see what you'd get is not a good test of faithfulness. Again, you're thinking too narrowly. There isn't always only one way to express one single idea in any language. Furthermore, the most common way to express one concept in a language does not necessarily have to correspond to the most common way to express that same concept in another language, meaning that while one can translate 届け as "be known," there's no requirement for the translation of "be known" in Japanese to be 届け.

    If you re-read the definitions I gave above, you'll notice that the meaning of 届く in this case is the third definition, which emphasizes the result, not the process. Of course, that doesn't mean we can't translate it as "to get through" in English, but your understanding of the connotation of the original word is mistaken.

    Again, I agree with your suggested revision. However, I disagree with your criticism of the original translator.
    I think you're misunderstanding how connotations work. They kind of permeate through a word, you can't just say they "stop applying" to a specific definition.
    (3)こちらの心が先方に通じる。転じて、反応が現われる。目的を達する。成功する。

    3. Here's heart/feelings get through to the destination. Alternatively, a reaction appears. [Something] reaches the goal. [Something] succeeds.
    Even if you ignore the other definitions, I still think "get through" and "reach" permeate the connotations here. This is a very word-for-word EDICT-definition translation, too.

    Really, though, I don't think we should argue about this any more. I'll make sure to avoid saying a translation isn't literal if it's borderline, in the future...
    Last edited by Serei; 11-03-2015 at 01:10 AM.

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    Default Re: U&I - K-ON (correction)

    A pointer, guys: we can tag users in a thread. I know I'm not around much lately but if I'm tagged in a post I would know from an email notification.

    I admit that U&I isn't one of my better t/ls and I had actually been deleting a few of my K-ON works from the site. (Still love the series tho). This one's a song which t/l I just left for dead and I'm tired of having my work criticised so I agree with your corrections and allowing you to overwrite mine, provided @bluepenguin agrees that your translation is superior. (Which should be an easy decision really.)

    ...so that you know where you can find me

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    Default Re: U&I - K-ON (correction)

    Quote Originally Posted by AzureDark View Post
    A pointer, guys: we can tag users in a thread. I know I'm not around much lately but if I'm tagged in a post I would know from an email notification.

    I admit that U&I isn't one of my better t/ls and I had actually been deleting a few of my K-ON works from the site. (Still love the series tho). This one's a song which t/l I just left for dead and I'm tired of having my work criticised so I agree with your corrections and allowing you to overwrite mine, provided @bluepenguin agrees that your translation is superior. (Which should be an easy decision really.)
    I did tag you, though! Right in my first response to this thread. Honestly, I didn't see any outright errors in your translation besides "謝れない" being rendered as "can't take it", but I wanted you to have the chance to get your two cents in before I shared my opinions.

    @Serei , you can go ahead with a new translation if you like, although I have to say I'm in agreement with @Hinamawari 's interpretation of "キミがいないと謝れないよ."

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    Default Re: U&I - K-ON (correction)

    Yeah, let's just make the other two changes and leave 「キミがいないと謝れないよ」 alone for now.

    On the other hand, "If you're not around I can't take it anymore" isn't a great translation for 「キミがいないと謝れないよ」 either... I guess I can try to retranslate that part again with the better interpretation if anyone feels strongly about it?
    Last edited by Serei; 11-21-2015 at 06:55 PM.

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    Default Re: U&I - K-ON (correction)

    It's okay if you'd rather not take another stab at that line, but if you did feel like doing it, I'd definitely appreciate having a version that at least takes into account that the verb there means "apologize".

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    Default Re: U&I - K-ON (correction)

    Maybe this:
    When you're not around I have no one to say sorry to
    I would also change the other two instances of "If you're not around" to "When you're not around".

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    Default Re: U&I - K-ON (correction)

    Quote Originally Posted by Serei View Post
    Maybe this:
    When you're not around I have no one to say sorry to
    I would also change the other two instances of "If you're not around" to "When you're not around".
    Thanks, sounds great! I'll make the changes now.

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