reikablue has lots of questions....

[rEikAbLeU]

ok, as the title says, i got alot of questions regarding japanese language...

so here im gonna throw the first one, hopefully, i understand your answers...
lol...

#1.
-chan, -san, -kun...
what's the difference and how are this actually used, respectively?

[LavaBug]

roughly - chan for girls less formal than san
-san for people who you are not- or do not want to be close with
(standart form of saying mr/mrs)
- kun to adress boys, less formal than san
you can also adress girls with kun of you are not close enough to call them chan but don't want to be too distanced by using san
also if you belong to military troops or something I think you would also use kun

It depends all more or less on the context though...
even if I was close with a girl and she was my sempai (senior/superior) I probably wouldn't call her chan (at least not when someone who knows our sempai/kouhai [junior]relationship is around)

So as for the usage...
In Japanese life you would probably call me 'san' if there is not really a close connection between us (Like guy in a office I go to who knows me Name)
If we were in the same club (like sports) you would probably use nothing at all...
If you were my boss or superior you would maybe use kun...
If I was a girl and we were close/or you were my superior you could
use 'chan'

I hope that was not too confusing...Or inaccurate...
Probably someone else would want to elaborate that further if necessary...

[MistressPookyChan]

-chan can also be used for boys, particularly young ones or cute (as opposed to handsome) ones.

[rEikAbLeU]

I hope that was not too confusing...Or inaccurate...
Probably someone else would want to elaborate that further if necessary...

i was a bit confused, but i got some point of it... esp. the -san part...
thanks...
(^^,)


the use of kun for girls you're not really close? can anybody explain this further, please...

~EDIT~ i forgot to say why im a bit confused...

[suzumi]

-chan can also be used for boys, particularly young ones or cute (as opposed to handsome) ones.

That's not really true. Well, at least the "as opposed to handsome" isn't. Boys also use the -chan as a nickname. Like, I have a friend at school who's name is Mitsuru, but everyone calls him "Mi-chan", even though he is our senpai. And for the record, he isn't cute at all. (ごめんよ、みーちゃん先輩。だって本当だもん．．．）



the use of kun for girls you're not really close? can anybody explain this further, please...

You usually use the -kun in a teacher/student relationship. Or boss/worker or, as LavaBug said, in the military they also use -kun.

[MistressPookyChan]

That's not really true. Well, at least the "as opposed to handsome" isn't. Boys also use the -chan as a nickname. Like, I have a friend at school who's name is Mitsuru, but everyone calls him "Mi-chan", even though he is our senpai. And for the record, he isn't cute at all. (ごめんよ、みーちゃん先輩。だって本当だもん．．．）



but the nickname is done in a more cute, almost joking sort of way in many cases. Though many times they have had the nickname for years (in his case, maybe his senpai called him mi-chan?) and it has stuck.

[Ertai87]

Also, there's a girl who was in my Japan trip group (note: not native Japanese, but she speaks the language at an almost-fluent level) who introduced herself with "-chan" in her name. I still call her by her English name (she introduced herself with her Chinese name) so I don't call her that, but I think she's introduced herself like that to people who are her...I always forget this word...the opposite of senpai XD

@reikableu: For girls you're close to but not in your family (generally family members don't have titles attached to their names) like close friends or girlfriends, you would use "-chan". For girls you're complete strangers to, you use "-san". I think if you're somewhere in the middle (classmate, coworker, etc. who know each other but not friends), you use "-kun".

A question of my own: I recently noticed that the personal pronoun "kimi" and the title "kun" use the same Kanji. I know "kimi" is quite informal, but I was wondering if the following can be said: If you can use "kimi" to refer to a person, you can also use "kun" as their title. Is this true?

[Rafear]

A question of my own: I recently noticed that the personal pronoun "kimi" and the title "kun" use the same Kanji. I know "kimi" is quite informal, but I was wondering if the following can be said: If you can use "kimi" to refer to a person, you can also use "kun" as their title. Is this true?

From what I've heard, if their fine with you using "Kimi" to refer to them, you can use even less formal titles, that's because such pronouns as "Kimi" are seen as disrespectful in most cases.

[Ertai87]

From what I've heard, if their fine with you using "Kimi" to refer to them, you can use even less formal titles, that's because such pronouns as "Kimi" are seen as disrespectful in most cases.

I've heard (or at least gotten the feeling that) "Kimi" is only slightly less respectful than using "Boku" for yourself. You wouldn't use it in formal situations, but, I've heard, it's not terribly disrespectful to use in everyday conversation.

[Rafear]

I've heard (or at least gotten the feeling that) "Kimi" is only slightly less respectful than using "Boku" for yourself. You wouldn't use it in formal situations, but, I've heard, it's not terribly disrespectful to use in everyday conversation.

Perhaps, I've never been able to ask a native about it, the person I heard it from was a English teacher in Mitoyo city, kagawa prefecture for two years, so things might be different throughout the rest of Japan, best thing to do would be to find a native -or someone that has been around Japan- and ask them i guess.

[TeresaFaintSmile]

-chan can also be used for boys, particularly young ones or cute (as opposed to handsome) ones.


correct.

---------------------------------
there are quite many sites in google that you can search that offers free lessons so no need to wait for others to reply on your questions rEikAbLeU
^^

[MistressPookyChan]

After asking some people: "kimi" is pretty disrespectful but not as bad as "omae", "boku" is quite common for guys.

[suzumi]

but the nickname is done in a more cute, almost joking sort of way in many cases. Though many times they have had the nickname for years (in his case, maybe his senpai called him mi-chan?) and it has stuck.

No, actually I first called him that (for a dare) and he liked it. But yes, I do suppose that is true.

But I still don't think the "as opposed to handsome ones" part is true, and that was what I was trying to point out.

[MistressPookyChan]

of course he would like it. It's cute and came from a girl. Probably thinks you have a crush on him.

My opinions are just an observation I've made in my 4+ years in Japan, working/living with a pro translator, working in Japanese companies, going to school, etc etc.


If no one else has anything else constructive to add to this thread, it will be closed.

[Datenshi]

"kimi" is pretty disrespectful but not as bad as "omae"
Partly true. "Kimi" has a patronizing ring to it, and so is usually reserved for a senior or elder referring to someone of lower status. "Omae" on the other hand is simply too casual for strangers. So it is theoretically possible to have a situation where "kimi" would be more inacceptable than "omae" for some people (for example, between two speakers of the same age, being patronizing might be a greater sin than being overtly casual. You get the picture).

[Ertai87]

Oh really? I totally didn't know that, good thing I asked XD

So basically, what is the pronoun you use with friends? I'm presuming it's not "anata". My impression of "omae" (judging from Naruto, so take this as you will) was that it was pretty much the most disrespectful of the "you" pronouns. Except maybe "koitsu" (or whichever one means "you")

[Aki_Saku]

-san: Used for people you don't know well, it's very polite. Almost like Mr. or Mrs.

-chan: You use this for your close (girl) friends. It's usually used by high school girls trying to be cute :D You can use this for guys, too, but I doubt they'd be too happy (laugh).

-kun: This is pretty much the equivilent of -chan, but for guys. You can use it for girls, too, but only if you're really close to them. Don't use it for girls (or guys) you don't know well!

I hope this helps!

[rEikAbLeU]

well, thanks guys, that answer my first set of questions, i know understand it and thanks for the additional knowledge...
now my 2nd question or rather, problem is this...

EX.
Japanese-私はとてもよく彼女の会社を楽しんでいることを見ることができる。
English-i can see that you are very well enjoying her company.

i used the http://babelfish.yahoo.com/ site to translate my english text to japanese now here's the thing, if i try to translate the words back to english again on my own, it would kinda turn up like this...

"As for me it can look at that her company is enjoyed very well."

how will i be able to translate these words accordingly?
sometimes i even have the hardest time getting the real meaning of some japanese clauses, phrases or sentences i try to translate...

can anybody please help me with this one...

[LavaBug]

For a start, you mean company like : I enjoy being with her
or you mean 'company' like Tradingcompany?
Because right know it would translate that you like the company that belongs to her ...

[Datenshi]

So basically, what is the pronoun you use with friends?
If you're close friends with the person and you're both young males of the same age, おまえ is usually just fine, since it implies you're both close enough to get away with being a little rude. A lot of times when you're just beginning to get acquainted one speaker will ask the other whether he or she can use タメ語 (or casual speak) with him or her.

If you're in a position where you're too close to use 敬語 but still not close enough to feel comfortable being too blunt, you can actually ditch second person suffixes altogether and get away with it.

e.g. Do you have any plans for this week?
山田さん／山田君／山田／おまえは今週予定ある？ -> 今週予定ある？　
And so on.

[Ertai87]

If you're close friends with the person and you're both young males of the same age, おまえ is usually just fine, since it implies you're both close enough to get away with being a little rude. A lot of times when you're just beginning to get acquainted one speaker will ask the other whether he or she can use タメ語 (or casual speak) with him or her.

If you're in a position where you're too close to use 敬語 but still not close enough to feel comfortable being too blunt, you can actually ditch second person suffixes altogether and get away with it.

e.g. Do you have any plans for this week?
山田さん／山田君／山田／おまえは今週予定ある？ -> 今週予定ある？　
And so on.

Ah, ok, thanks :D I've always been scared to use "omae" because of how I've heard it used in Anime.

@reikableu: Yeah, the word 会社 means "company" as in business, not "company" as in hanging out together. So your sentence as written translates as "I can see you're enjoying the company she owns very much". To use 会社 in that context sounds really weird (in English anyway). It doesn't match the verb very well.

[rEikAbLeU]

For a start, you mean company like : I enjoy being with her
or you mean 'company' like Tradingcompany?
Because right know it would translate that you like the company that belongs to her ...

i actually mean i enjoy being with her. so i used the babel translator to translate my english sentence which is "i can see that you are very well enjoying her company." to the japanese, but it gave that translation, so that means it's incorrect?

but you see that's basically my problem the correct translation.

ok, i'll change the example... i got this form another thread here, in japanese manners to be exact (i kinda make a mistake with that thread once or twice, im sorry again)...

"Kawaki kitta nodo he nagashita
Kimi no na de kokoro wo uruoushiteku"

if i translate it on my own i would get:

"With your doing to the throat which finishes to dry it can, the concavity it has done heart"

but then i found out that i was wrong, i though it was wrong to begin with, that the translation is:

"I fill my throat with your name,
Quenching my heart drying with thirst"

there goes my problem, how do i know if im translating sentences or phrases or words correctly?

[Ertai87]

This is why Babelfish is a bad idea.

For your first example, a better English version (that is, more easily translated with the same meaning) would be "I can see you enjoy being with her", or "I can see you enjoy spending time with her". Those are more easily translated to Japanese. Here's how I would translate it (and keep in mind I'm not a Japanese native and am talking mostly out of my butt here):

あなたが彼女と一緒の時が好きだそうです。

Literally: "It appears you like the time you are together with her"

Since you use Babelfish (BAD IDEA!!!!!), I'll give you Romanji for that as well in case you need to use it:

Anata ga kanojo to issho no toki ga suki da sou desu.

As for your second example, poetic speech is really *really*, **REALLY** hard to properly translate, especially if you use an online translator like Babelfish (VERY BAD IDEA!!!). It's best to try to master colloquial, everyday speech before trying to do the poetic stuff.

And in case you can't tell, I *REALLY* don't like Babelfish.

[rEikAbLeU]

This is why Babelfish is a bad idea.

For your first example, a better English version (that is, more easily translated with the same meaning) would be "I can see you enjoy being with her", or "I can see you enjoy spending time with her". Those are more easily translated to Japanese. Here's how I would translate it (and keep in mind I'm not a Japanese native and am talking mostly out of my butt here):

あなたが彼女と一緒の時が好きだそうです。

Literally: "It appears you like the time you are together with her"

Since you use Babelfish (BAD IDEA!!!!!), I'll give you Romanji for that as well in case you need to use it:

Anata ga kanojo to issho no toki ga suki da sou desu.

As for your second example, poetic speech is really *really*, **REALLY** hard to properly translate, especially if you use an online translator like Babelfish (VERY BAD IDEA!!!). It's best to try to master colloquial, everyday speech before trying to do the poetic stuff.

And in case you can't tell, I *REALLY* don't like Babelfish.

i can tell You dont like BABELFISH, very much... lol...

is there anything else i can do to learn translations more accurately?

coz you see i dont have japanese friends to whom i can speak with or learn from.

[Ertai87]

Best thing I can suggest is to learn grammar and vocabulary, or at least fake learning vocabulary by buying a dictionary. The paper dictionary I used to use (currently use an electronic one) was the Random House dictionary by Seigo Nakao. It's pretty good.

Grammar-wise, you can ask people here, but I'd suggest picking up a textbook to get a base. The books I used were custom-made for the course by my prof, but starting in Japanese 4 (the course I just finished in April), they use Japanese for Busy People. I picked up JBP3 3ed and it's pretty good. Look into that series.

[rEikAbLeU]

ok, then that'll be the next thing i'll buy when i go to the bookstore....

thanks guys, no further questions yet.

Admin-san, or Mr./Ms. Admin, you could close this thread now...

my questions have been answered, thank you very much.

^_^
(e_e)