Some grammar confusion

[Ertai87]

OK, so I have a couple questions. I just need some clarification:

1) What's the difference between "-tara" form and "-eba/-nara" form? They're both used for the English "if", but why is it necessary to have 2? I heard that "-tara" can also be used for "once ___ is done...", but then what's the difference between "-tara" and "-ato de"? Can you give examples for when each of those 3 are used that the others can't be?

2) This came up in a conversation I had with a Nihonjin yesterday. Without getting into the context (because I have a feeling that, although I wasn't trying to, I was really rude to him because I didn't know this), how does one properly use "deshou"? The way I think of it is that, because I'm a guy, I've heard I'm not supposed to use "ne?" at the end of my sentences, so I try not to, and that "ne?" and "deshou?" have similar meanings. Also, on that same note, what's the difference between "deshou" and "darou"? I've picked up from Anime (and my Japanese teacher, but mostly Anime) that "deshou" is something equivalent to the English "isn't it?" or "aren't you?" (or whatever the equivalent is in context), but I'm having trouble getting the same feeling from "darou".

Thanks :D

[tetekmakhang]

1. go have a look at this website http://www.jgram.org/pages/viewOne.php?tagE=conditional
it has a very good explanation.

2. i dont know where u got that idea from, but it's perfectly alright and polite to use 'ne'. im sure uve heard of that cliche line 'kyou wa ii tenki desu ne'.

to explain the difference between 'ne' and 'deshou', lets look at the sentences 'kore oishii desu ne' and 'kore oishii deshou?'

with the former, you think that the food is delicious and you think that the other person probably thinks the same way too, and ur just asking for confirmation.
with the latter, you think that the food is delicious but you don't know how the other person feels. but u think he probably thinks its delicious. so u ask to confirm.

moving on to deshou and darou, theyre both exactly the same thing except deshou is polite and u can use it with anyone, whilst darou isnt. female speech is generally more polite than male speech, so girls or women never use darou when speaking to another person. for males, its okay to use darou with another person IF that person is ur buddy or junior. if not (teachers, elders, somebody u just met, ur girlfriend's family, seniors) it is rude.

[Ertai87]

Agh it's one of those context things that really confuses me about this language...I still don't get it :( (the "ba/nara" vs "tara" thing)...

[MistressPookyChan]

I don't often hear guys use ne, but they will use it if trying to act cute. XD If you do use it, try to avoid the upswing intonation that girls often add to it.

[Datenshi]

1) What's the difference between "-tara" form and "-eba/-nara" form? They're both used for the English "if", but why is it necessary to have 2? I heard that "-tara" can also be used for "once ___ is done...", but then what's the difference between "-tara" and "-ato de"? Can you give examples for when each of those 3 are used that the others can't be?


<-to> <-ba> <-tara> <-nara> each have multiple definitions. Some of them overlap in meaning and some are not interchangable. I guess you have to memorize them all and build your own matrix out of the maze of interconnecting multiple definitions.
The following link will probably be helpful.
http://www014.upp.so-net.ne.jp/nbunka/99jan.htm

[Unknownymous]

1. Also, just a minor clarification, -nara is not just an extension or a form of verb as far as I know. It's a word on its own. As opposed to -tara and -eba as you put it, which seem to need to be attached to verbs.

私なら読みます
If it were me, I'd read it.

2. I haven't heard "ne" in manly speak (like guys trying to sound manly), or people of position/authority, but guys like young boys, or like fathers talking to their children, seem to use it often. But you'll hear "ne", "deshou" and "darou" all being used by anybody in different situations in songs, because they can sometimes ignore politeness for the sake of poetry.

The other stuff, everybody already explained. :D

[Datenshi]

1. Also, just a minor clarification, -nara is not just an extension or a form of verb as far as I know. It's a word on its own. As opposed to -tara and -eba as you put it, which seem to need to be attached to verbs.
Actually, although that is a good point, it is not strictly true. If you'd look at the link I provided above:


4 NARA

(construction)
Verb, I-adjective, Na-ajective -- Dictionary form + nara (surunara, oishinara, hansamunara)

Noun -- Noun + nara (coffee nara)

What you are referring to is the latter usage (Noun), but that does not apply to the former usage (Verb).

[Ertai87]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but:

AたらB is kind of like "If A happens, there are many things that can happen, but I'd like to focus on B", while Aければ/ならB is like "If A happens, B is some important information you should know, but it's only relevant if A happens"

In the examples from the first site, it's like "If I meet my friend, we will go shopping". In this case, "If I meet my friend", we can do lots of things (play video games, see a movie, go clubbing, hang out, etc.), one of which includes shopping, which I have chosen to be on the agenda at this particular time, hence, it is important. Another example is "If you don't eat, you'll get sick". In this case, it's important to recognize that you should eat, and, if you don't, it's important to know that you'll get sick.

I also get the feeling that ければ/なら is used for direct results. For example, "If I had money, it would be good". "It" being good is not a direct result of having money. It can be good if you don't have money, and if you have money it can not be good (if you don't have enough money, for example). You having money does not imply it being good, so it uses たら. However, it seems なら/ければ has the A -> B and !A -> !B implication (i.e. A implies B and "not A" implies "not B"), for example "if it is fun, I'll go too" implies "if it is not fun, I won't go", and hence would use なら/ければ. It's kind of like in English you have "if" and "if and only if". The former says A -> B. The latter says A -> B, !A -> !B, and B -> A. It seems like the former is たら and the latter is なら/ければ. Is this correct?

[Unknownymous]

o_o;

Something about your precision in your post is hilarious. It sounds right to me, but honestly I'd never thought of it that way before. I just kinda say whatever sounds natural in situations. But now that we're breaking it apart here, I guess completely understanding it once and for all can be useful if you want your exact idea to get across.

[Ertai87]

o_o;

Something about your precision in your post is hilarious. It sounds right to me, but honestly I'd never thought of it that way before. I just kinda say whatever sounds natural in situations. But now that we're breaking it apart here, I guess completely understanding it once and for all can be useful if you want your exact idea to get across.

lol considering I'm a white Canadian anglophone, to me the natural thing to say would be in English :P