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VraieEsprit
09-08-2007, 09:51 AM
Ok this is something of a mental blindspot for me - with the exception of people and small animals, I have issues with all the Japanese counters and get very easily confused about what fits in where. And sometimes, which counter to use when, especially for something like time.

So this is my question...(Please note I can't type in kanji or kana on this PC, bear with me, sorry for that :S)

Where time is concerned, ichi-ji is one o' clock and ichi-jikan is one hour, right?

I understand that without any problems.

Equally I know that half past one can be ichi-ji-sanjuppun or it can be ichi-ji-han.

What I'm stuck with (and I'm sure the answer is glaringly obvious) is how to say one hour MORE...or half an hour MORE.

I'm wondering if it's correct to say mou hitotsu no jikan (one more hour) or mou hitotsu no sanjuppun (30 minutes more)...somehow that seems clumsy but I can't think how else to say it :S

Help?

I'm sure I'm being very stupid but my idiot brain can't figure it out...

Vraie

Datenshi
09-08-2007, 10:43 AM
The phrase you are looking for is, ta da:

ato ichijikan / ato sanjuppun

ato = after
ato ichijikan = one hour [is left] after

I hope that helps.

'mou hitotsu ichijikan' does not make sense, as it would translate to 'one more of a one hour' or even 'another different one hour' which would start to delve into nearly metaphysical realms of thought.

Ertai87
09-08-2007, 11:46 AM
In my Japanese class we learned that "mae" and "ato" ("before" and "after") come after the word they're modifying, so it would be ichi-jikan mae/ato.

VraieEsprit
09-08-2007, 01:01 PM
Ahhh!

Thank you muchly :)

*installs factoids into slow, stupid brain*

Although the metaphysical isn't always a bad place to be...;)

mae and ato after the words they're modifying mean before and after...I didn't think of putting ato before the noun to imply another hour...(I am reading you right on that, yes? I have just got in from work, so the brain's a little fried...)

Is it the same kanji?

Vraie

Ertai87
09-08-2007, 04:36 PM
Actually "ichi-jikan ato" means "after an hour", or "in an hour", as in the phrase "ichi jikan ato benkyou wo hajimemasu" (I will study in an hour), and, similarly, "ichi jikan mae benkyou wo hajimemashita" (I started studying an hour ago).

As far as kanji goes, I don't know for sure, but I'd guess it would be the same since the exact definitions of kanji are very loose (e.g. 日 can mean both "sun" and "day"). It's not much of a stretch to say that this case is similar.

LavaBug
09-08-2007, 05:33 PM
you COULD say purasu (plus) ichi jikan ...
because i can't think of something better now...

MistressPookyChan
09-08-2007, 11:49 PM
一時間後 いちじかんあと 

後 (ato) and 前 (mae) are most commonly used. Same kanji, too! There *could* be a keigo/polite way of saying it, but I never hear it.

Datenshi
09-09-2007, 05:49 AM
Let me clarify.

Ichijikan ato -> An hour later
Ato ichijikan -> One hour left

The latter is not necessarily incorrect, simply a difference in nuance.

Ichijikan ato ni benyou wo hajimemasu -> I will start studying in an hour
Ato ichijikan benyou wo shimasu -> I will study for one more hour

前 = mae
後 = ato (<- when this is at the end of a counter, e.g. 一時間+後, it is often read as 'go', as in 一時間後 = ichijikango.)

A related word: 前後 (zengo) = before and after, in front of and behind

There is really no keigo form of the words, but if you really want to go out of your way to be polite, '前 = saki', '後 = nochi' is a possible alternative.

Also, just for the sake of correctness.

ichi jikan mae benkyou wo hajimemashita
-> ichijikan mae ni benkyou wo hajimemashita.

Ertai87
09-09-2007, 11:10 AM
My Japanese prof said the "ni" was optional...I usually use it anyway though...

VraieEsprit
09-09-2007, 11:39 AM
Ok...having slept (wow, yes, I do that sometimes...bleh...) and gone back to my dictionary...I need to clarify.

I'm asking how to say one hour more...right? Not one hour left, or in an hour, or any of those things. Having re read over the posts I'm confusing myself again.

My dictionary says that "another" is "mou hitotsu no" which is what I originally said (note, I said mou hitotsu no jikan, not mou hitotsu no ichijikan in my original post, which may be the cause of the confusion...or it might just be me being really stupid and slow.)

I know that you can say "mou hitotsu no sekai" (for example) to mean "another world". However...I wasn't sure if you can use it to say "another hour".

To put it into context, I work in a library (this is the easiest example I could think of) and people there book computers for half an hour, an hour, whatever.

So if someone was to come to the desk and say "I'd like one more hour/another hour on PC number 6 please" how would they say it?

Is "ato ichijikan" still correct in that context?

Thanks in advance :)

Vraie

Datenshi
09-09-2007, 04:46 PM
My Japanese prof said the "ni" was optional...I usually use it anyway though...
Yeah, you're right. I'm just somewhat of a grammar nazi :P Sorry for nitpicking.

Datenshi
09-09-2007, 05:04 PM
I'm asking how to say one hour more...right? Not one hour left, or in an hour, or any of those things. Having re read over the posts I'm confusing myself again.

The thing you need to get is that, as is often the case when translating, the 'range', if you will, of the definitions of the phrases in both the languages do not concisely overlap. For example, 'ato ichijikan' can mean both 'one hour more' and 'one hour left', depending on the context it is said, even though the latter two phrases mean distinctly different things from each other in English.



My dictionary says that "another" is "mou hitotsu no" which is what I originally said (note, I said mou hitotsu no jikan, not mou hitotsu no ichijikan in my original post, which may be the cause of the confusion...or it might just be me being really stupid and slow.)

I know that you can say "mou hitotsu no sekai" (for example) to mean "another world". However...I wasn't sure if you can use it to say "another hour".

Again, you need to give up looking for direct equivalents of definitions. English and Japanese are entirely different languages and a direct word by word translation seldom works.

Now how do I explain this case? Let me try.

Think about the word 'another'. Since you are obviously a native English speaker, you may not be actively conscious of this, but when you think about it, there are two distinctly different nuances within the English word 'another'. They are:

1. another as in 'one more'. ex. Another hour = one more hour.
2. another as in 'different'. ex. Another world = a different world.

Have you ever thought of that? Now, in Japanese, 'mou hitotsu no' does indeed mean 'another', but mostly in the second example I gave above (different), and seldom if never in the vein of the first example (one more).

Therefore, you can say:
Mou hitotsu no sekai = Another (different) world

but you cannot say:
Mou hitotsu no jikan = Another, different time*

because when you think of it, what the heck is 'another, different time'? As long as we live by the phyics of this universe time is uniformly alike, so referring to 'another, different, or alternative time' sounds almost surreal (i.e. 'with this time, an hour is thirty minutes long, and with this time, a hour is ninety minutes long...' It makes no sense!). That was what I was referring to when I mentioned metaphyics in my previous post.

However, most dictionaries gloss over this and simply state 'mou hitotsu no = another', which is misleading as you see. Technicalities such as these are countless, and are the trap in placing too much importance on your dictionary. It's a great idea to use the tool as a handy reference, but when learning the language it is best to ask a teacher or consult your textbook.

*I'm aware there is a usage in English where "a different time = in the past or future", but in this case I mean it literally, as in "not the same", and not in that sense.



So if someone was to come to the desk and say "I'd like one more hour/another hour on PC number 6 please" how would they say it?

Is "ato ichijikan" still correct in that context?

Yes.

Strictly speaking of this case, 'mou ichijikan' will also work as well.

Ertai87
09-09-2007, 11:17 PM
@Datenshi: 'sok, I'm a spelling nazi (except for certain words which I spell badly myself :P). Also, in my Japanese studies so far, I've found that a lot of words do overlap. One particular word I didn't expect to overlap was toru (to take, as in "to take a penny and leave a penny" (sorry, I can't think of anything better) but also "to take a class")

[edit] Another word that has a neat overlap is "daijoubu", which literally translates to the English "ok", which doesn't really have a meaning, but can be used as "are you ok?" (as in physically) or "everything's ok" (as in "everything is in order") or when the teacher says "ok?" (as in "do you understand?"). The only place you would use the English "ok" where you would not use the Japanese "daijoubu" is when somebody asks you to do something and you say "ok". Or at least that's what I've found.

VraieEsprit
09-10-2007, 08:46 AM
The thing you need to get is that, as is often the case when translating, the 'range', if you will, of the definitions of the phrases in both the languages do not concisely overlap.

I understand this. THis is actually my reason for asking in such exact detail. Even if I think I understand something, I would prefer to get it right, which is why the clarification...

I know Japanese is quite good at this repeat meaning thing, so I wanted to be sure.


Now how do I explain this case? Let me try.

Think about the word 'another'. Since you are obviously a native English speaker, you may not be actively conscious of this, but when you think about it, there are two distinctly different nuances within the English word 'another'. They are:

1. another as in 'one more'. ex. Another hour = one more hour.
2. another as in 'different'. ex. Another world = a different world.

I'm actually not a languages rookie, and lexis and vocabulary has always been my extreme strong point (not to mention the fact my mother is an English/TEFL teacher which means I wouldn't be able to avoid that if I wanted to). I'm fairly fluent in French and I've A Level Spanish and GCSE German. Being a native English speaker doesn't make me a monoglot. ^_^. Common misapprehension, I realise, but Japanese is actually the fourth language I've taken up studying.

The problem is not that I don't understand "different nuances". It's that I understand too many nuances. This is a byproduct of being Aspie - in that I read all the posts that were left on the thread and saw a number of different answers and interpretations to questions asked and answered. This is confusing to an Aspie brain because we already look for multiple meanings/readings in sentences without even thinking about it. So although you answered my question, you answered it in too many ways for me to know if you answered it at all.

(Apologies for that)

As for resorting to the dictionary, I actually hate my Japanese dictionary and find my Kanji one much more helpful. Which again was why I was asking for clarification. I don't wholeheartedly trust my dictionary's perspective. I'd rather have it from someone who speaks the language fluently. When my mother was teaching English to Japanese businesspeople, she'd say that they'd often comment on the poor quality of E-J/J-E dictionaries available in this country. So I've a tendency to be wary, and to doublecheck things over and over.

Unfortunately my mother is no longer teaching (she retired a year or two ago) and my Japanese is actually better than hers is (she taught intermediate English). So while it taught me kana, it means I don't currently have anyone native on hand to ask these annoying questions I have. ^_^.



but you cannot say:
Mou hitotsu no jikan = Another, different time*

I suppose that would imply "era" which would be "jidai" rather than "jikan"...right?

I only re-emphasised this because you misquoted me in the original post though. I had to clarify that what I wrote was actually wrong...not just that you'd read it wrong. *sorry if that was confusing*.


Technicalities such as these are countless, and are the trap in placing too much importance on your dictionary. It's a great idea to use the tool as a handy reference, but when learning the language it is best to ask a teacher or consult your textbook.

Yeah, as I said, I don't trust my dictionary anyway. That was why I came here (lol) since I won't see my teacher till the 20th and it's a fairly casual arrangement as it is (most of my Japanese is self-taught since my mother gave up teaching!)



Strictly speaking of this case, 'mou ichijikan' will also work as well.

That was all I needed to know ;)

Doumo arigatou

Vraie

Datenshi
09-10-2007, 07:36 PM
When I answer a question, I think through it for a bit and try to answer cover all the important points to make it sound the least confusing, but in this case it seems I tried too hard and my method did not turn out to be the best. I apologize for that.


Think about the word 'another'. Since you are obviously a native English speaker, you may not be actively conscious of this

Being a native English speaker doesn't make me a monoglot. ^_^. Common misapprehension, I realise, but Japanese is actually the fourth language I've taken up studying.

Funny, I wasn't aware I ever stated anything implying that you were. I simply said that, while you are often aware of the semantical technicalities of a language learned second hand (or third, or fourth, or fifth, which may be in your case), you tend to take that of your native language for granted.

If that is not the case for you, that is just as well. But I'm simply quite curious where you got the impression that I was assuming you only speak English, as polygots are by no means anything uncommon by the Internet's global standards.



I only re-emphasised this because you misquoted me in the original post though. I had to clarify that what I wrote was actually wrong...not just that you'd read it wrong. *sorry if that was confusing*.
It wasn't a misquotation more than an automatic correction, but in either case I am sorry if I caused any confusion.
In your original post you said:

mou hitotsu no jikan (one more hour)
However, 'jikan' by itself does not mean 'hour', but simply 'time'. Only when you put the 'one' before it and say 'ichijikan' does the word take on the meaning of 'an hour'.

ichijikan = one hour
jikan =/= one hour

From the contents of the parenthesis directly after your statement, I concluded that what you meant to say was 'ichijikan =hour' and not 'jikan = time' and quoted you accordingly. Again, I aplogize if I didn't provide enough explanation.


Learning a language by yourself is a very hard task, one I wouldn't have the courage to embark upon myself, so I wish you only the best. Although, having such a rich background in a variety of other languages is sure to be an advantage, is it not?

MistressPookyChan
09-11-2007, 06:41 AM
Thank you all for keeping the personal jabs to a minimum. Remember, this forum is for learning, not for showing off and criticizing others.

VraieEsprit
09-11-2007, 07:39 AM
When I answer a question, I think through it for a bit and try to answer cover all the important points to make it sound the least confusing, but in this case it seems I tried too hard and my method did not turn out to be the best. I apologize for that.

I suspect to a large degree the fault is with me and my overly complicated brain :S



Funny, I wasn't aware I ever stated anything implying that you were. I simply said that, while you are often aware of the semantical technicalities of a language learned second hand (or third, or fourth, or fifth, which may be in your case), you tend to take that of your native language for granted.

Ack. In that case I apologise. I did tell you I have a bad habit of reading too many interpretations, didn't I? I guess that just bears it out. Apologies for putting implications into your words that you did not infer.



However, 'jikan' by itself does not mean 'hour', but simply 'time'. Only when you put the 'one' before it and say 'ichijikan' does the word take on the meaning of 'an hour'.

ichijikan = one hour
jikan =/= one hour



That makes sense. It's been a while since I revised time and so on, so I suppose that didn't occur to me. (You realise at this point we've reached a correction that was a misquotation of an original error...LOL!)



Learning a language by yourself is a very hard task, one I wouldn't have the courage to embark upon myself, so I wish you only the best. Although, having such a rich background in a variety of other languages is sure to be an advantage, is it not?

Yeah, well, I hope so. I'm not entirely on my own, just the main thrust of my learning has been. It means that some things pass me by and other things I absorb probably more quickly...I have no doubt that I can read all the wrong Kanji for my study level and my vocabulary is probably somewhat bizarre...

In any case, thank you for your patience in helping me and I'm sorry if I put you to any trouble/confusion ;) I'll go away now and revise all the time things and then I'll know for sure the next time the question arises ;)

hontou ni arigatou ;)

Vraie

Datenshi
09-11-2007, 07:52 AM
Thank you all for keeping the personal jabs to a minimum. Remember, this forum is for learning, not for showing off and criticizing others.
Did it really come off like I was? Feh.


You realise at this point we've reached a correction that was a misquotation of an original error...LOL!
Yeah, it seems to be a lapse on my part as well. It's weird, my mind kind of unconciously filled in the blank and I didn't even notice. Funny how these things happen, ne.


I have no doubt that I can read all the wrong Kanji for my study level and my vocabulary is probably somewhat bizarre...
I sorta sympathize myself, as my Japanese/English education has been sporadic to say the least, travelling so often to and fro my native land as I have. I can know somewhat obscure kanji/words on one hand and have a first-grader's knowledge of some of the most basic things on the other. It's rather frustrating at times.

Oh, and to answer I question I missed in my previous post:

I suppose that would imply "era" which would be "jidai" rather than "jikan"...right?
You're absolutely right.

Douitashimashite.

MistressPookyChan
09-14-2007, 08:24 AM
My warning wasn't aimed at just one person. :) Just keep the learning positive. Thanks!