Academic writing on anime fansubs

[Paul "OtaKing"]

There's very little academic writing on anime, let alone fansubs. I figured some of you might want to take a look at my postgraduate thesis which netted me a tasty enough grade os 2:1 (UK marking), since it's on a subject everyone here is interested in.
Maybe it'll give you an insight into how stupid most fansubbers are in their approach to the Japanese language, too. The seven major translators in equivalence theory and localisation can't be wrong!

Paul "OtaKing" Johnson,
Freelance Japanese-English translator/Artist

[WhatIsAUserName]

Very interesting contribution to all of us, though while browsing through your works cited, I noticed that one of them was Wikipedia, and you used it three times. I didn't quite see where you used it to cite something, but care to explain why it's there in the first place?

[Regex]

This is a nice document, except for one major glaring problem.

You failed to understand the target audience.

You see, official English translations are intended to reach the widest possible audience. To accomplish this, they translate the whole culture to match, to create western-styled dialogue.
Fansubbers, however, are targetting people who are much more interested in the Japanese culture. They get into it because they LIKE the culture, and want to preserve that. And as someone who claims to understand Japanese well enough to be a translator, you should understand that learning a language so drastically different from English as Japanese is no simple task. For anyone who doesn't have a passion for learning the entire language, but maintains a healthy interest in the culture, a fansub is the way to go. It's absolutely ideal.
Of course you already got that much. You understand that. your complaint is that there are other nuances that are left out. So you suggest that the line should be drawn in a different place. You suggest that if people feel that some honorifics and Japanese cultural customs should be left in, all of them should.

....

Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? As a human being, who lives in a world filled with many many colors, you should understand that not everything is black and white. We aren't governed by a single on/off switch that controls our differences between the cultures. Most of all, it's quite obvious, you CAN NOT keep every single nuance in after a translation. So the line has to be drawn somewhere, between being in complete Japanese and complete Western.
Obviously, they leave the -chan, -san, -kun suffixes in. They don't translate them in any way, and leaving them in doesn't particularly hurt the sentence structure. But Westernizing the whole thing drags you out of the Eastern cultural mindset, and makes it harder to listen to the Japanese and hear what people are saying.
Remember, most anime fans who seek out fansubs understand Japanese culture, including several nuances of the Japanese language. If you know enough to understand what -chan, -kun, and -san mean, then you see that, and understand it. Likewise, if you know enough to understand the differences between ore, boku, watashi, etc, then you probably are listening to the language and you understand that.


If you want to be such a damned purist, and you want to call out fansubbers on hypocrisy, then you should be sure to note the opposing hypocrisy. To suggest that the whole culture should be translated would mean that all the images and the animation should be translated as well. Let's change what people wear, and how they dress. Let's change the buildings and scenery.
But you're not that lacking in intelligence. You are smart enough to know better.

The fact is that the line has to be drawn somewhere. Many anime fans wish to preserve more of the Eastern culture, and fansubbers cater to them. And the beautiful thing is that there are so many fansub groups translating any given popular anime, that these fans can choose the one that fits their tastes the best. That's certainly an option that you can't get from the official translations.
Which goes into another point.
Fansubbers do it because they enjoy it. Putting their name on their work just gives fans the option to return to them if they like the balance they found. I think you kind of applied Vitalyos' quote out of context. Yes, her own speaking and writing style should not be apparent. But everyone has their own line they draw where they feel it should or should not be Westernized. To anime fans, this line is important, and if they find a translation style they like, they would like to know who did it so they could go back for more.


In conclusion, your facts are not wrong, but you're trying to apply definite "black" or "white" to a gray area. And that is where you are wrong.

[Paul "OtaKing"]

A couple of points:

They leave the honorifics in because sad anime fans (we've all been through this phase at one point) want to use them in everyday conversation, and want to feel big and important because they think they understand what "no da" means on the end of a sentence, desuuuu. In five or so years, they'll cringe with embarassment when they look back at how they were using "san" to refer to themselves, etc.

If you understand enough Japanese to hear and identify chan, boku and ore when they are spoken, then you *don't* need them in the fansub in the first place. They get in the way, and look stupid for the most part. ESPECIALLY when the show is set in England, and people are calling each other "Smith-san" and "Elizabeth-jou."

Fansubbing in the manner it's done currently is disrespectful to the artist's vision. The director of the show did *not* intend the work he slaved over to be filled with distracting liner notes, and people pausing the action every five seconds at their convenience to read that "O-neeee-sama means sister, but not really." I doubt Hideaki Anno would appreciate people watching his life's work, Evangelion, with a screen filled with crap. You must see this point. You're all for respecting the cultural gap. Well, most manga artists hate having their work flipped, because it's changing their presentation. Imagine what anime producers would think if they saw fansubbed copies of their work, with five lines of liner notes obscuring the faces of their characters, and stupid "karaoke effect" nonsence cluttering up the screen. Translator's invisibility is practiced in every area of translation throught the world... except for fansubs, surprisingly enough. That's because, in fansubs, it's all about ego, and letting everyone know that YOU translated this and YOU got it on the newsgroups faster than those "lamers" in Bakanunchaku fansubs, or whatever.

Fansubbing is not about bringing anime to people who otherwise wouldn't be able to see it, as it was orignally in the 90s and before. Removed for language

One final point - fansubs are more often than not glaringly wrong and lacking in understanding of the Japanese.

[Gjallarhorn]

A couple of points:

They leave the honorifics in because sad anime fans (we've all been through this phase at one point) want to use them in everyday conversation, and want to feel big and important because they think they understand what "no da" means on the end of a sentence, desuuuu. In five or so years, they'll cringe with embarassment when they look back at how they were using "san" to refer to themselves, etc.
I strongly disagree. In my viewing I like the see the honorifics because it allows one to see on which level one character is addressing another. Perhaps a sister, a brother, a senior, a junior, a superior, an inferior, and so forth. I'm not some imbecile who run around screaming "My name is Kyle-san!", nor do I use any other Japanese words or phrases, both because I don't speak Japanese nor do I pretend to, and because people who do so just make themselves look foolish. It's just a preference to see over only the name. I just think that "Luffy-san" has more of a connotation to it that simply "Luffy".


If you understand enough Japanese to hear and identify chan, boku and ore when they are spoken, then you *don't* need them in the fansub in the first place. They get in the way, and look stupid for the most part. ESPECIALLY when the show is set in England, and people are calling each other "Smith-san" and "Elizabeth-jou."
Perhaps someone has some slight knowledge of Japanese, enough to know what "chan", "boku", and "ore" mean, but are not nearly of any level of proficiency to identify them within a line of monologue or dialog. It makes it, in some manner, closer to the original language, and seems more authentic. Perhaps you may not need them, but when the majority wants them, or if a group does it initially with no complaints, there is no harm done, and all it does is serve to please the viewers. If the show is set in England, and if what you're saying is true, it would be stupid to place them in the script anyway, wouldn't it?


Fansubbing in the manner it's done currently is disrespectful to the artist's vision. The director of the show did *not* intend the work he slaved over to be filled with distracting liner notes, and people pausing the action every five seconds at their convenience to read that "O-neeee-sama means sister, but not really."
I'd rather have to pause for five seconds to see a small note at the top of the screen explaining an allusion or metaphor being said than to be completely oblivious to what is being said, or to have the allusion or metaphor replaced with some crappy joke or pun just inserted for the sake of Westernization.

I doubt Hideaki Anno would appreciate people watching his life's work, Evangelion, with a screen filled with crap. You must see this point.
And I doubt Hideaki Anno would like his viewers to hear this script he worked on, full of religious and psychological allusions and metaphors, and not have a single idea about what they hell it is the characters are talking about, or completely missing an underlying idea which delivers and important messege. I would have rather had some small on-screen notes than when I spent a good period of time scrambling around the net looking for what the various references meant. Mind you, the screens are never filled. That is a huge exaggeration. At worst it is 12 to 16 sized font in a small box at the top of the screen. If I created such a story, I'd much prefer an informational, slight distraction to complete ignorance of the point of a line.

You're all for respecting the cultural gap. Well, most manga artists hate having their work flipped, because it's changing their presentation.
Most official translators and distributors keep everything left to right, and most most scanlation groups keep everything left to right. And even if the work is flipped, it is still being read and viewed in the same order because of our different patterns of reading, so the flip wouldn't matter anyway.

Imagine what anime producers would think if they saw fansubbed copies of their work, with five lines of liner notes obscuring the faces of their characters, and stupid "karaoke effect" nonsence cluttering up the screen.
Dialog is always in a moderately small font at the bottom of the screen, and liner notes are almost always at the top of the screen in fonts the same size as the dialog text. It is never in the middle of the screen or the edges, where the focus is primarily localed, and at the top of the screen, it rarely gets in the way of anything of even the most minuscule importance.

Translator's invisibility is practiced in every area of translation throught the world... except for fansubs, surprisingly enough. That's because, in fansubs, it's all about ego, and letting everyone know that YOU translated this and YOU got it on the newsgroups faster than those "lamers" in Bakanunchaku fansubs, or whatever.
It is? Really? Wow. Because in a book I'm currently reading about Auschwitz originally written in Russian, I could have sworn I saw the translators name printed on the second page of the book just under the authors name and printed in a larger font size than the authors name. Heh. I guess I must have imaged seeing that. I must have also imaged that the official translator of the GetBackers, Alexis Kirsch, has her name printed on the second page of every officially distributed copy of the manga. Or perhaps in movies when the translators name is seen in the credits. Guess what? Fansubbers put their names in the credits because they worked on it. Perhaps not officially, but they worked on it nonetheless. And very, very rarely do you see a fansubbers name in larger font than the producers or the rest of the staff who was involved in creating it. And you know, it is about speed. Because people will look at whatever is available to them faster than they will a version which is approximately the same coming out two days later. And if you put effort into something, I'd image that you'd like to have people view it, or else it would make you feel like the effort that you put into it had no purpose in it. You would have put so much effort into it, but if no one saw it, there was no point in you doing it.

Fansubbing is not about bringing anime to people who otherwise wouldn't be able to see it, as it was orignally in the 90s and before.
Oh? Then why would they spend so much time translating it and fansubbing it? If they just wanted to get their names out there, they could do it in ways so much easier and time consuming than fansubbing.

Now, fansubbing has a simple goal: to prove one set of fansubbers' [...] are bigger than the other groups', and to "pwn their lame [...]." Hence why fansubbers put the names of their pathetic groups in huge fonts, often bigger than the title of the anime itself, and fill the opening sequence (often a work of art in itself) with their own names. Often in higher positions than, for exmple, the director, the character designer, and so forth. Hmm. I wonder who put in more work?
Or, maybe it's just to allow people to see anime they would not see for a few years, or perhaps never see. Maybe you just have some kind of grudge against them, because you certainly make it seem like you do.
I have been viewing fansubs for four years now, and not once have I ever seen a groups name bigger than the title, or even remotely near the size of the title. Again, this is just a huge exaggeration on your part. and you know what? The names of the staff members who worked on the series, every last one of them, has their names in the opening and closing animation. Dozens upon dozens of names are already in it before a small group of people insert their own names into it, because after all, they put work into it, though perhaps not officially, and everyone deserves credit for their work. And very rarely are the names of the fansubbers in larger font size than those who made the series. And last I checked, the font size of a name does not reflect upon how much work was put in. Last I checked, the director and the key animators all have their names in the same size, and fansubbers keep their names in these same sizes.

One final point - fansubs are more often than not glaringly wrong and lacking in understanding of the Japanese.
I can't really comment here as I don't know Japanese, but I will say that perhaps the words may not be exact or perfect, so long as they convey the appropriate message, everything is fine.

On another note, I just looked through your deviantArt gallery, and you have some amazing stuff. I'd leave some comments of my astonishment on it, but I don't use the site.

[NovaStar]

I strongly disagree. In my viewing I like the see the honorifics because it allows one to see on which level one character is addressing another. Perhaps a sister, a brother, a senior, a junior, a superior, an inferior, and so forth. I'm not some imbecile who run around screaming "My name is Kyle-san!", nor do I use any other Japanese words or phrases, both because I don't speak Japanese nor do I pretend to, and because people who do so just make themselves look foolish. It's just a preference to see over only the name. I just think that "Luffy-san" has more of a connotation to it that simply "Luffy".


Perhaps someone has some slight knowledge of Japanese, enough to know what "chan", "boku", and "ore" mean, but are not nearly of any level of proficiency to identify them within a line of monologue or dialog. It makes it, in some manner, closer to the original language, and seems more authentic. Perhaps you may not need them, but when the majority wants them, or if a group does it initially with no complaints, there is no harm done, and all it does is serve to please the viewers. If the show is set in England, and if what you're saying is true, it would be stupid to place them in the script anyway, wouldn't it?


I'd rather have to pause for five seconds to see a small note at the top of the screen explaining an allusion or metaphor being said than to be completely oblivious to what is being said, or to have the allusion or metaphor replaced with some crappy joke or pun just inserted for the sake of Westernization.

And I doubt Hideaki Anno would like his viewers to hear this script he worked on, full of religious and psychological allusions and metaphors, and not have a single idea about what they hell it is the characters are talking about, or completely missing an underlying idea which delivers and important messege. I would have rather had some small on-screen notes than when I spent a good period of time scrambling around the net looking for what the various references meant. Mind you, the screens are never filled. That is a huge exaggeration. At worst it is 12 to 16 sized font in a small box at the top of the screen. If I created such a story, I'd much prefer an informational, slight distraction to complete ignorance of the point of a line.

Most official translators and distributors keep everything left to right, and most most scanlation groups keep everything left to right. And even if the work is flipped, it is still being read and viewed in the same order because of our different patterns of reading, so the flip wouldn't matter anyway.

Dialog is always in a moderately small font at the bottom of the screen, and liner notes are almost always at the top of the screen in fonts the same size as the dialog text. It is never in the middle of the screen or the edges, where the focus is primarily localed, and at the top of the screen, it rarely gets in the way of anything of even the most minuscule importance.

It is? Really? Wow. Because in a book I'm currently reading about Auschwitz originally written in Russian, I could have sworn I saw the translators name printed on the second page of the book just under the authors name and printed in a larger font size than the authors name. Heh. I guess I must have imaged seeing that. I must have also imaged that the official translator of the GetBackers, Alexis Kirsch, has her name printed on the second page of every officially distributed copy of the manga. Or perhaps in movies when the translators name is seen in the credits. Guess what? Fansubbers put their names in the credits because they worked on it. Perhaps not officially, but they worked on it nonetheless. And very, very rarely do you see a fansubbers name in larger font than the producers or the rest of the staff who was involved in creating it. And you know, it is about speed. Because people will look at whatever is available to them faster than they will a version which is approximately the same coming out two days later. And if you put effort into something, I'd image that you'd like to have people view it, or else it would make you feel like the effort that you put into it had no purpose in it. You would have put so much effort into it, but if no one saw it, there was no point in you doing it.

Oh? Then why would they spend so much time translating it and fansubbing it? If they just wanted to get their names out there, they could do it in ways so much easier and time consuming than fansubbing.

Or, maybe it's just to allow people to see anime they would not see for a few years, or perhaps never see. Maybe you just have some kind of grudge against them, because you certainly make it seem like you do.
I have been viewing fansubs for four years now, and not once have I ever seen a groups name bigger than the title, or even remotely near the size of the title. Again, this is just a huge exaggeration on your part. and you know what? The names of the staff members who worked on the series, every last one of them, has their names in the opening and closing animation. Dozens upon dozens of names are already in it before a small group of people insert their own names into it, because after all, they put work into it, though perhaps not officially, and everyone deserves credit for their work. And very rarely are the names of the fansubbers in larger font size than those who made the series. And last I checked, the font size of a name does not reflect upon how much work was put in. Last I checked, the director and the key animators all have their names in the same size, and fansubbers keep their names in these same sizes.

I can't really comment here as I don't know Japanese, but I will say that perhaps the words may not be exact or perfect, so long as they convey the appropriate message, everything is fine.

On another note, I just looked through your deviantArt gallery, and you have some amazing stuff. I'd leave some comments of my astonishment on it, but I don't use the site.

Reps. most certainly, My thought on this: Though I have not read the Essay, and only read responses, (Especially on something said by Regex) that most subtitlers for companies will westernize what is said, IE: I think it's already been said about the Suffex Drops, you will not see "Chan, or Kun" or "Sama" on anything that is subbed by a company which liscenced it.

You'll also see some Japanese terms completely disregarded in subtitles, ADV Does this CONSTANTLY, All and All for you to even have enough Guts to take on this subject, I'm giving you Positive Reps.

Xero: You're Also Getting Reps.

But my one point I think that's already been touched on: Apparently in the article, you reference Wikipeida 3 times, Wikipedia is not a factual source, School's BAN Wikipedia for any use, thus for this to be an Essay I strongly sugguest you rewrite those parts, as anything from Wikipedia or any Source for Wiki's will not be tolerated, or at least. it isn't where I come from.

Wikipedia, is Open Source, which means ANYONE can Edit it. If allowed. - I'll use an example of professional wrestling here, fomer RAW General Manager Eric Bischoff for World Wrestling Entertainment( I know this has nothing to do with Anime) however, Eric stated, that someone had edited Wikipedia to give him a Degree at a school which Bischoff himself Admits he dropped out of. So just on that case and point ,ANYONE can Edit Wikipedia.

I'm going to give you positive reps however, for even taking the generous time to write something out and post it here. Regardless of weather I agree with it or not, it's great to see someone share their opinions.

[Regex]

Xero actually said most everything that I was going to say, so I won't break it all down, but I'll touch on a couple more things.

Fansubbing is not about bringing anime to people who otherwise wouldn't be able to see it, as it was orignally in the 90s and before.Way to go with the broad generalizations again. I'm sure you're in the mind of every fansubber everywhere. After all, the moment they decided to make a fansub project, they lost all individuality, and suddenly fit the little mold that you created.


One final point - fansubs are more often than not glaringly wrong and lacking in understanding of the Japanese.I've seen many fansubs, often times multiple attempts on the same episode from different groups. Some were wrong, some were right. The ones that were wrong were not usually so wrong that they got the Japanese wrong. They usually had English grammar errors.
The times I saw blatantly incorrect translations, it was no worse than I've seen in some official translations.

And like I said before. The best thing about fansubs is that you have options. Find the group that you understand the best, and go with that. You don't get any options if you're stuck on the official translation.

Also, keep your language appropriate.




Wikipedia, is Open Source, which means ANYONE can Edit it. If allowed. - I'll use an example of professional wrestling here, fomer RAW General Manager Eric Bischoff for World Wrestling Entertainment( I know this has nothing to do with Anime) however, Eric stated, that someone had edited Wikipedia to give him a Degree at a school which Bischoff himself Admits he dropped out of. So just on that case and point ,ANYONE can Edit Wikipedia.While this is true, Wikipedia is usually accurate, just because so many people are changing it. While I usually insist upon using the original source that is cited on Wikipedia, Wikipedia itself remains accurate for the most part, so I wouldn't worry much about that.