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View Full Version : divine intervention: "does それ mean 君?" and other problems.



Grain
09-08-2014, 11:42 PM
Hello beautiful smart amazing wonderful translators. I translated divine intervention (http://www.animelyrics.com/anime/wcworks/divineintervention.htm) a while ago, but now I'm having doubts. In the first stanza we have this:

僕は愛してる
深く深く それを見つけた
あの日からそう君を
I love you so, so deeply.
Ever since the day I realized it,
Yes, I love you.

Even when I was translating this, I suspected that それ actually referred to the listener. I don't even think it's right to translate 見つけた as realized. So, maybe it should actually be:

I love you so, so deeply.
Ever since the day I found you,
Yes, I found you.

Later in the song we have this:

それをいつしか君は小さな手のひらに
優しく想いを溶かすように包んだ
Before I noticed, you wrapped my love in your small palm,
Like you were gently unthawing it.

First of all, I should have said heart instead of love. Second, I should have said "thawing" instead of "unthawing," darn regionalisms! Third and most important, what is それ supposed to mean here? The directionality is all crazy. Who's palm is it? Whose heart is it? Who is wrapping what?

The singer is talking about how her lover changed her life when she found him, so I think the singer's heart is the one that was frozen. But that doesn't make sense if それ means 君. Maybe the ように should be translated as "so that," like, "I wrapped you in my palm so that you would thaw my heart." But, that sounds kind of nonsensical.

And then there's this part:

守るものならば
生まれる前から知っているから
身を焦がし君のため戦おう
If there's something for me to protect,
I've known since before I was born.
I'll fight for you burning with love.

Did I get this one wrong? I kind of just ignored the second から. Maybe it should be:

"If there's something for me to protect,
Because I've known since before I was born,
I'll fight for you, burning with love."

And finally, there's this:

僕は操られ
人形のような目をしてたんだね
あの日まで誰のため戦う
疑うこともなく (ただ)
I was being controlled
Like a doll with lifeless eyes, wasn't I?
Until the day the doubts I had about
Who I would fight for vanished (just vanished...)

I chose to be a little bit liberal with the doll thing, especially since "eyes like a doll" could be misinterpreted as "pretty eyes." Do you think this stanza is translated okay? Maybe I should have translated the ただ as "simply" or "however."

Haze~
09-09-2014, 11:56 AM
>僕は愛してる
深く深く それを見つけた
あの日からそう君を
I love you so, so deeply.
Ever since the day I realized it,
Yes, I love you.

Even when I was translating this, I suspected that それ actually referred to the listener. I don't even think it's right to translate 見つけた as realized. So, maybe it should actually be:

I love you so, so deeply.
Ever since the day I found you,
Yes, I found you.

Well, I'm not sure whether if you'll find this helpful or not, but I had something else in mind:
"I love you.
Burried deep, deep down (within myself), I found it. ("It", being the feeling/fact that she/he loves him/her)
Ever since that day, yes, I've been in love with you.."

Hope you find it helpful! Again, I'm not really sure myself.

bluepenguin
09-11-2014, 05:51 PM
People do a lot of weird things in song lyrics, but I've not really seen sore/kore/are used to refer to people before. I think Haze~ is on the right track with "sore" referring to the fact that she loves him. And the later "sore" is definitely the singer's heart; I can't see the opposite interpretation making sense.


Did I get this one wrong? I kind of just ignored the second から. Maybe it should be:

"If there's something for me to protect,
Because I've known since before I was born,
I'll fight for you, burning with love."

Minor difference, really, but I think the new translation is good.

As far as that last stanza goes, the liberties with the doll line seem okay to me because the connotations are a lot clearer in Japanese than they would be in a literal English translation, but it seems to me like your reading of the grammar/structure of the last two lines might be off? Since "あの日まで" comes first, I don't think the rest of the line is supposed to be modifying "that day", for one thing. I would interpret "あの日まで誰のため戦う 疑うこともなく (ただ…)" as something more like "Until that day, for whose sake will I fight with all my heart?" Of course, it's a bit weird because the rest of the song doesn't really give context for what "that day" might be referring to here, but I guess it's sort of an implied general "until that day [when I can't anymore]"?

Grain
09-13-2014, 12:05 AM
Well, I'm not sure whether if you'll find this helpful or not, but I had something else in mind:
"I love you.
Burried deep, deep down (within myself), I found it. ("It", being the feeling/fact that she/he loves him/her)
Ever since that day, yes, I've been in love with you.."


Thanks. That makes me look at the whole song a different way.




As far as that last stanza goes, the liberties with the doll line seem okay to me because the connotations are a lot clearer in Japanese than they would be in a literal English translation, but it seems to me like your reading of the grammar/structure of the last two lines might be off? Since "あの日まで" comes first, I don't think the rest of the line is supposed to be modifying "that day", for one thing. I would interpret "あの日まで誰のため戦う 疑うこともなく (ただ…)" as something more like "Until that day, for whose sake will I fight with all my heart?" Of course, it's a bit weird because the rest of the song doesn't really give context for what "that day" might be referring to here, but I guess it's sort of an implied general "until that day [when I can't anymore]"?

She's referring to the day that she found her lover. The main idea of the song is that her life was empty until she found him, and since that day, she's been fiercely loyal to him. If the stanza were a normal sentence, I think it would be like: 「誰のために戦う?」という疑問がただなくなった日まで、僕は操られ人形のような目をしてたん だね。 The English lines that I wrote weren't meant to be an exact translation. I think the context of the rest of the song makes it clear what "that day" refers to. I probably should have posted the whole song, sorry.

僕は愛してる
深く深く それを見つけた
あの日からそう君を
I love you.
Deep, deep inside me, I found it.
Ever since that day, yes, I’ve loved you.

泣いていたのは誰の面影
淡い記憶の底
もう迷わないよ そう決めたから
大切なものを傷付けない
Who was crying in this image
At the back of my faint memory?
Since I’ve decided I won’t waver anymore,
It won’t harm the thing I treasure.

たとえ世界中が敵になって
牙を剥くような日がきても僕は
Even if the day comes that the whole world
Becomes our enemy and bares its fangs, I…

守るものならば
生まれる前から知っているから
身を焦がし君のため戦おう
僕は愛してる
深く深く それを見つけた
あの日からそう ah
まだ届かないなら
もっと強くその名を叫ぶよ
宙(そら)に
If there’s something I’m supposed to protect,
Because I’ve known about it since before I was born,
I’ll fight for you, burning with love.
I love you.
Deep, deep inside me, I found it.
Ever since that day, yes, ah…
If I can’t reach you yet,
I’ll shout your name even louder,
To the sky.

挫けないのは存在の証明
僕の生きる理由
たとえそこには抗えないような
法則がすでにあるとしても
My perseverance is proof that
I’m alive for a reason.
Even though inescapable laws
Are already out there,

試されてるのさ 運命という
僕らの意思を脅かすものに
We’re being tested by things that
Try to scare us away from our fated purpose.

「マモルモノ」ならば
生まれる前から知ってたんだよ
身を焦がし誰がために戦う?
僕は操られ
人形のような目をしてた
あの日まできっと
それをいつしか君は小さな手のひらに
優しく想いを溶かすように包んだ
If there’s some “thing” I’m supposed to protect,
I’ve known about it since before I was born.
Whom will I fight for, burning with love?
I was being controlled
Like a doll with lifeless eyes.
Until that day, certainly.
Before I noticed, you wrapped my heart in your small palm,
Like you were gently thawing it.

そして僕は「自由」になった
完璧な意思と涙 手に入れ
それから叫んだ その名を
And I became “free.”
I obtained a flawless purpose, and tears,
And then I shouted your name.

僕は操られ
人形のような目をしてたんだね
あの日まで誰のため戦う
疑うこともなく ただ…
I was being controlled
Like a doll with lifeless eyes, wasn’t I?
Until that day, whom will I fight for
With simply no doubts?

守るものならば
生まれる前から知っているから
身を焦がし君のため戦おう
僕は愛してる
深く深く それを見つけた
あの日からずっと
まだ届かないなら
もっと強くその名を叫ぶよ
宙(そら)に
If there’s something I’m supposed to protect,
Because I’ve known about it since before I was born,
I’ll fight for you burning with love.
I love you.
Deep, deep inside me, I found it.
Ever since that day, always.
If I can’t reach you yet,
I’ll shout your name even louder,
To the sky.

"Kujikenai no sa" was hard to translate, but in the end I went with perseverance. I think it flows better than "My hanging in there.../My having a stiff upper lip."

For a long time the 法則 line sounded weird to me, but today I realized that the "law" she's talking about is fate. Although it's split into two stanzas, she's basically saying, "Even though Fate has decreed we'll be together, we're still being tested by things that are futilely attempting to deter us from our destiny."

I'm still not sure how to translate "ただ..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLZez82cp4w

bluepenguin
09-13-2014, 03:38 PM
I did go look at the whole song for context, and I'm generally in favor of taking creative license, but I still think your interpretation is a huge stretch. Song lyrics do weird things with grammar, yes, but usually not that weird. If the rest of the two lines were meant to modify "ano hi," they almost always would come before "ano hi", or else there would be a construction like "ano hi made wa [dare no tame tatakau to utagatta, or whatever]" but since "ano hi made" comes first and there aren't any further particles or anything, it's almost certainly modifying the rest of the line, saying that the things that follow will be done "until that day." Meanwhile, "utagau koto mo naku" is almost a set phrase/idiom meaning to do something wholeheartedly/without doubts, and it's adverbial here, which suggests it refers to the manner in which the singer will fight. (Does this make sense? I'm sorry I can't explain it any better.)

Of course these things are not an exact science and it's all up to you in the end, but I wanted to register that even with your explanation, I strongly disagree with your reading of the lines.

Grain
09-13-2014, 04:14 PM
I did go look at the whole song for context, and I'm generally in favor of taking creative license, but I still think your interpretation is a huge stretch. Song lyrics do weird things with grammar, yes, but usually not that weird. If the rest of the two lines were meant to modify "ano hi," they almost always would come before "ano hi", or else there would be a construction like "ano hi made wa [dare no tame tatakau to utagatta, or whatever]" but since "ano hi made" comes first and there aren't any further particles or anything, it's almost certainly modifying the rest of the line, saying that the things that follow will be done "until that day." Meanwhile, "utagau koto mo naku" is almost a set phrase/idiom meaning to do something wholeheartedly/without doubts, and it's adverbial here, which suggests it refers to the manner in which the singer will fight. (Does this make sense? I'm sorry I can't explain it any better.)

Of course these things are not an exact science and it's all up to you in the end, but I wanted to register that even with your explanation, I strongly disagree with your reading of the lines.

I appreciate your input. What do you think of this?

僕は操られ
人形のような目をしてたんだね
あの日まで誰のため戦う
疑うこともなく ただ…
I was being controlled
Like a doll with lifeless eyes, wasn’t I?
Until that day, whom will I fight for
With simply no doubts?

bluepenguin
09-13-2014, 04:38 PM
I like that much better, yeah, and I think the way you worked "tada" in there is good as well.