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Aku no Hikari
07-06-2011, 11:25 AM
Hey. I have a few minor questions about this one before submitting it. Orz

But in the beginning, I'd like the word "kibau" in 6th stanza 3rd line in the romaji to be corrected. It should be "kibou". Link (http://www.animelyrics.com/doujin/syncarts/ienuato.htm). And please change the footnote to '* written in the booklet as "kawaii ko", but sung as "anata".' (Lol @ my Engrish)


心の奥に潜む毒
人は笑顔の裏に隠し持つ
絶望、裏切り恐れて
真実追い求める。。。

People hide behind their smiling faces
a poison that lurks in their inner hearts
Fearing despair and betrayal,
they pursue the truth...

紡がれる優しい嘘は
人を守る思いやりの言葉
傷付く事を知り乍
探る言葉の裏

The woven gentle lies
are words of consideration that protect people
Even while knowing that they'd get hurt,
they delve behind the words

[1] I experience pains (and have nightmares!) from seeing that line short contrary to its Japanese original. (゜Д゜) Especially "woven" is too short compared to the 5 syllables-long つむがれる. Unfortunately, among the longer synonyms I know (and the other ones on Thesaurus.com), I can't determine which one works best, or maybe how to re-word the whole thing in a way that makes it longer without killing it...

Worst-case scenario, I'll keep it like this. But before that, I'd like to hear some ideas. (Anything, really! No matter how obvious it is. Don't make any assumptions that involve me knowing anything. >.> )

貴方は嘘に守られて、
幸せに生きる事ができるの。
なのに真実を求めて
あるその幸せ気付くことはなく。。。

You are protected by lies
so that you can live happily.
And yet, you seek the truth
You shall never recognize that very happiness...

[2] "that very"... Would it be better to remove "very"? Or perhaps use something else?

聞こえ来る言葉は刃
人を傷付け悲しませるモノ
そんな心を忍ばせる
人の悲しい性よ

The words I hear are sword edges;
they wound people and make them sad
You conceal such a heart
It's man's pathetic nature

[3] I know I'm being a little picky, but since モノ has been katakanized, is there any significance to that that I need to show in the translation? (I just used a semicolon)

[4] If I am to improvise an adjective for "heart", what should it be? And should I? ... since it does seem a little off in the translation.

私だけに聞こえてくる
静かに日々をただ送りたいの
ささやかなこの想いさえ
打ち砕かれてゆく。。。

They are heard only by me
I merely want to spend my life quietly
Even those meager feelings
will eventually get smashed...

[5] I'm stuck on whether to make that line "It's only I who hears them"

貴方の禍つその心
紡がずにいれば聞こえはしない
一つ希望の貴方さえ
私から離れ消えてゆく運命

That catastrophic heart of yours
can never be without weaving lies
Even you who are my only hope
are destined to leave me and fade away

[6] My google-fu failed me with つ, but I do remember somewhere that it's a literary equivalent of の... I need to be confirm that, though.

貴方*は語ることはない
私に抱かれて甘えて跳ねて
眠る時さえ側にいて
涙の痕もこれで癒えてゆくの?

You'll just never admit
Being embraced by me, jumping like a spoiled child,
being with me only when it's time to sleep.
Will the traces of my tears be healed with this?

[7] I understand in what sense the word "tell" is used here; I'm just perplexed about how to properly put that. Also, Short Translation Syndrome! Lol, should I worry that much about my lines having STS? D=

[8] The 「貴方」 that has an asterisk is actually written as 可愛い子 as the footnote says... so I'm wondering... while I'd transliterate what's sung, should I also translate what's sung too? ... or what's written? I mean... this isn't anything near a figurative.

AzureDark
07-07-2011, 12:35 PM
1) I'd love to see "tailored" somewhere there...

2) Just join the two lines into once sentence to make them flow better (it's a -te after all):
And yet, you seek the truth
Not realizing the happiness that's in front of you...
"never" is a bit strong too.

3) Not really. It's common to have non-physical nouns being written in katakana to show that it is being described in a physical way metaphorically. In this case the (s)words (http://www.animelyrics.com/game/yorugakuru/anightcomesasc7.htm) aren't really physical and don't hurt people in a physical sense, although they certainly do in another sense.

4) 'sonna kokoro' is actually referring to the heart that spoke the sharp words. It's probably "you" in the end of all this but from the way you wrote the whole stanza, this wasn't clear.
The structure of the last two lines goes like: {そんな心を忍ばせる(人の悲しい[性])}よ leaving 'sei' as the actual subject of the whole sentence:
Such is the sad trait of humans
Hiding their true intentions
The "intention" (replacing "heart") here is to "hurt people", and humans hide this using words. Because you usually need weapons to hurt people.

5) The original line is okay, but what's next isn't. ささやか gives the notion that the singer deems it precious, but you chose "meager" which belittles it. You must also relate what's happening in this stanza to the one before so it may be good to have some rearranging:
I only wanted to live my days peacefully
But these voices that only I can hear
Are tearing apart
Even the delicate feelings that I am having
also not to miss the -yuku there.

6) Yup, つ looks to be the okurigana of the noun form of the 禍 kanji, just like 天つ. 'Catastrophic' sounds a bit weird though - catastrophy means the doom and not evil. Probably "dastardly" or simply "wicked" or whatever.

7) lol STS... I usually overcome STS with some sprinkling of detail but there comes the fear of not translating it faithfully to the original. Actually I like the 'admit' in there for reasons I myself don't know...
Um... your 'sae' should mean:
Even in bedtime, you're there beside me

8) In this case this just gives an identity to who the singer is referring to... you can write in the notes that "this song is for a cute girl" or something, since you can't reflect this in the actual trans.

Datenshi
07-07-2011, 01:18 PM
>紡がれる優しい嘘は
>人を守る思いやりの言葉
>The woven gentle lies
>are words of consideration that protect people

紡がれる should be in present progressive form, I think (in any case, "woven", in past tense, would be 紡がれた). Also, "words of consideration" seems a bit wordy; how about "considerate words"?

The gentle lies that are being woven
are considerate words that protect people


>なのに真実を求めて
>あるその幸せ気付くことはなく。。。
>And yet, you seek the truth
>You shall never recognize that very happiness...

It's difficult to discern exactly what 「ある」 means in this context: 「ある」 as in 「あるリンゴ」 (an [particular] apple) or 「ある」 as in 「有る」 ("have"). I tend towards the latter interpretation. Also, note that these lines are an inversion of the statement 「あるその幸せ(に)気づくことなく / 真実を求めて」.

And yet, you seek the truth
Without recognizing the happiness that you have

>人を傷付け悲しませるモノ
>they wound people and make them sad

Interesting question. I think AzureDark-san has put the point well already. If pressed, you could try "they are things that wound people..."

>そんな心を忍ばせる
>人の悲しい性よ
>You conceal such a heart
>It's man's pathetic nature

AzureDark-san already got to the structural issue here, but personally, "hiding their true intentions" is a bit too liberal for my tastes, since the connection between these lines and the previous two lines becomes less clear (I do contend it's a matter of personal choice). Also, 「~よ」 is an exclamation/interjection (as in "how pathetic is the nature of man!").

How pathetic the nature of man
That he conceals such a heart

>貴方の禍つその心
>紡がずにいれば聞こえはしない
>That catastrophic heart of yours
>can never be without weaving lies

I'm a bit skeptical of interpreting 「紡ぐ」 as "lying" from this context alone (my intuition is that the act of "being woven" is attributed metaphorically to the 心=heart/soul). Also, 「聞こえ」 is missing from the translation.

That catastrophic heart of yours
can never be heard if it is not woven

>貴方*は語ることはない
>You'll just never admit

How about "confess"? Feh, in any case, paraphrasing a favorite quote by a sempai, a translation is either a mistress or a wife; beautiful and not faithful or faithful and not beautiful.

Aku no Hikari
07-08-2011, 02:13 AM
ご苦労様でした!あず闇様、堕天使さん。 大お世話になりました! (Hehe, I wonder if you like the name "Azuyami")



>貴方の禍つその心
>紡がずにいれば聞こえはしない
>That catastrophic heart of yours
>can never be without weaving lies

I'm a bit skeptical of interpreting 「紡ぐ」 as "lying" from this context alone (my intuition is that the act of "being woven" is attributed metaphorically to the 心=heart/soul). Also, 「聞こえ」 is missing from the translation.

That catastrophic heart of yours
can never be heard if it is not woven
Well, the lack of a subject and an object leaves 紡がず open to interpretation, but in my opinion the heart itself being woven is way more counter-intuitive than it being the weaver.

In the context, there's absolutely nothing that indicates why it would be the case that the heart is being woven (by what? to what? what for?) versus the whole song involving bad hearts and them weaving lies.

Well, maybe there is, but I didn't see it. Can you please explain why it's your intuition that this is the case here?

> Also, 「聞こえ」 is missing from the translation.

I'm gonna have to keep that one a horny mistress. Because while...

That dastardly heart of yours
If it lives without weaving, [I/we'd] never hear [anything from it] (OR: it would never be heard from -OR- nothing would be heard from it, etc)

... seems faithful enough to me, it's a bit too much of a robotic wife to me. (Particularly in the latter clause)


> 紡がれる should be in present progressive form, I think

Well, it roughly means "The gentle lies that [they] tailor" except in the passive voice. The problem with "The gentle lies that are being tailored" is... umm... dunno... It sounds like a conspiracy to me when you say "that are being tailored".

"The gentle lies that are tailored" is the most literal one, but does it sound natural? It does sound a little robotic to me (though I might be mistaken)... So I guess I'll stick with "The tailored, gentle lies".

"The gentle lies that they tailor" is a good alternate, I think (because it's long enough, and it delivers the meaning very closely). But I have a feeling "The tailored, gentle lies" is better because, as far as I understand, the purpose of using 紡がれる is to describe the nature of the lies, not really to indicate any action/process, let alone a subject. (Hence the passive was used to blur the importance of the subject even more.)

Dunno, maybe I am wrong and this is understood differently by a native speaker? What do you think about it, Datenshi-san?


とにかく、もう一度 ありがとうございました! ( ◕ ◡◡ ◕)

---------- Post added at 09:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 AM ----------

Actually, I forgot one more thing to fix in the translit! The word 運命 is sung as "sadame", not "unmei" (Last word in the 6th stanza).

Also, I'd like the footnote to be changed (again... Orz) to '* This song is for a cute girl. In the booklet, "anata" here is written as "kawaii ko" which means "cute girl".'

Thanks again. (:

AzureDark
07-08-2011, 02:34 AM
お前が悪で、俺が闇?いい響きだ。

Before sempai jumps on my back further for mentioning it, actually I didn't intend "tailored" to replace "woven". It was something that would become
are words of consideration tailored to protect people
because there was a "woven" in the line before.

Aku no Hikari
07-08-2011, 02:50 AM
Ahhhhhh... Okay, I'll take care of that. Orz

Datenshi
07-08-2011, 10:10 AM
お前が悪で、俺が闇?いい響きだ。
じゃあ、僕は「堕」ですか。なんかダメ人間みたいでいいですね。


Well, the lack of a subject and an object leaves 紡がず open to interpretation, but in my opinion the heart itself being woven is way more counter-intuitive than it being the weaver.

In the context, there's absolutely nothing that indicates why it would be the case that the heart is being woven (by what? to what? what for?) versus the whole song involving bad hearts and them weaving lies.

Well, maybe there is, but I didn't see it. Can you please explain why it's your intuition that this is the case here?

I do see your point about "the heart being woven" being counter-intuitive, so taking in your reply, I'll try to explain my reasoning a bit more (emphasis on "try"; nothing is harder than explaining an intuition, which is why this is so darn long).

The core of the interpretation is how to interpret 「紡ぐ」. Now, 「紡ぐ」 in the literal sense means "weave", but that obviously can't be the case here, so it must be a metaphor. The most common metaphorical use of 「紡ぐ」 is the saying 「言葉を紡ぐ」 ("weaving words"), so it's a natural step of reasoning to first assume that that is what is meant.

Note that in this case, it is the "words" that are being "woven", and it is the mental association with this common saying that I thought "the heart being woven" (as opposed to "the heart weaving") made more intuitive sense than you apparently thought it did.

However, the most important thing to keep in mind for later purposes is that 「言葉を紡ぐ」 (weaving words) means "to choose/select your words carefully as you tell a story". It is the process of "untangling" the jumble of words that we use in daily life and "weaving" them into a coherent and meaningful pattern, i.e. a story or poem.

Which leads us to how to interpret 「心」, which is the second core of our interpretation. It is especially important to keep in mind that 「心」 is sometimes associated with words and the meaning of words. For example, 「心を明かす」 (taken literally, "reveal your heart") basically means to speak (or write) sincerely. Which makes enough sense; the only way to know someone's heart (or your own) is to enunciate them in words. Interestingly enough, you can find rough comparisons in the English language; "spill your heart out", "speak/write from the heart", etc.

Now, going back to the line in question:

>貴方の禍つその心
>紡がずにいれば聞こえはしない

I think where we disagree is whether to interpret the sentence as 「その心は紡ぐ」 (the heart weaves) or 「その心を紡ぐ」 (weaving the heart).

Taking the above two points together (1. the common saying 「言葉を紡ぐ」, or "weaving words", and 2. the metaphorical association of 「心」 with "words"), it seemed to me to be more intuitively plausible to take the latter interpretation and think of it as 「心を紡ぐ」.

Hence;
>That dastardly heart of yours
>can never be heard if it is not woven

Then what does "the heart being woven" mean exactly? Recall the metaphor of 「言葉を紡ぐ」, which meant "carefully choosing/selecting from a jumble of words to weave them into a coherent pattern", i.e. a story. So it seems to make sense to think of 「心を紡ぐ」 as meaning "weaving your heart into a coherent pattern".

Of course, "weaving your heart into a 'coherent pattern'" doesn't make much sense. But remember, again, the association of 「心」 with words and their meanings. Taking this into consideration, 「心を紡ぐ」 could be interpreted as "weaving your [heart=your jumbled hidden emotions] into words" or at least coherent thoughts.

So, then, what does it mean that "the heart cannot be heard if it is not woven into a coherent pattern"? For your "heart" to be heard, you have to enunciate them into words (if they are to be heard by others) or thoughts (if they are to be heard by yourself). Conversely, if you do not "weave" your heart (i.e. "weave" them into a coherent pattern = words and thoughts), they cannot be heard by anyone.

In any case, that's my take on it, and I think it makes more logical sense to think this way ("weaving your heart/emotions into words"), rather than to interpret 「紡ぐ」 as "weave lies" and think of the lines as "the heart is weaving lies", because on the latter interpretation;

1. you can't make sense of why 「聞こえはしない」 is in the line (the line would literally read "cannot be heard if it does not weave lies", which is difficult to make sense of; why can't the heart be heard when it isn't weaving lies, and why would it be heard if it does lie?), and
2. you have to introduce the word "lie" into the line when it is nowhere to be found in that particular stanza (which is, of course, not a bad thing necessarily from the point of poetic liberty, if there is sufficient reason).


"The tailored, gentle lies" is better because, as far as I understand, the purpose of using 紡がれる is to describe the nature of the lies, not really to indicate any action/process, let alone a subject.
I actually think that the fact that 「紡がれる」 is understood as an action/process is crucially important, because it suggests that this act (of lying gentle lies) has been going on in the past (since the beginning of mankind, perhaps?), and will continue to go on in the future; hence it is the "nature" of mankind (「人の悲しい性」).

By putting it in the past tense, it becomes an event that happened in the past, and you lose that sense of it being an "inescapable" part of being human.

animeyay
07-08-2011, 11:53 PM
Seeing that the 闇悪堕(やーだ)<3 team has already generated this much discussion, I guess I should just stay out of it to avoid complicating things. Besides, Azure and Datenshi have pretty much taken care of everything.

Don't mind me. I'm just a passer-by trying to say "Hi." =D