Health care in America.

[GameGeeks]

Socialist? Nah, big brother is watching. Or at least he will be if things keep going as they are.

[Skylar1]

About time that it passed. Now I don't have to worry about getting my own health plan, I can just stay on my parents' for another 7 years.

[Nighthawk]

Oh Buddha you card, always finding the right solution for every problem...



Id like to point out that Sociocommunazi1984 Europe actually has no problems with systems like that ^^

[Condey]

Woohoo, the bill passed! Welcome to the civilized world, America! :P

[GameGeeks]

I do hope you're being sarcastic. If not you're, basically, saying those of us against the bill are uncivilized. If wanting your government to listen to you is uncivilized then give me a powdered wig and a musket. I don't think I want to be civilized.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

To everyone thats saying stuff like " I want to get out of the country now"......GO AHEAD!!!
Come on now, if this is so bad then move. You dont have to live here.
I guess people are aginst children having coverage, and unable to be turned down.

Here is some food for thought.
Pro Life dems and reps voted in majority against this bill, BUT that in it's self goes against pro life. This bill covers children and makes sure they cant be turned down. Now who is Pro life? What if a mother can't afford care for thier child that pro life people made her have? if your going to be pro life then this bill is really your best friend in a mask.

[Condey]

I do hope you're being sarcastic. If not you're, basically, saying those of us against the bill are uncivilized. If wanting your government to listen to you is uncivilized then give me a powdered wig and a musket. I don't think I want to be civilized.

I was half-joking, I'm just glad to see that the bill has passed and Americans can finally enjoy the same standard of healthcare that the rest of the western world has for so long.

[GameGeeks]

Pro-life is one thing, pro-choice is another. The country was founded on freedom. Not just of religion but of choice as well. This bill infringes on that freedom. As far as I'm concerned, this bill goes against the intentions the founding fathers had when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Pro-life is one thing, pro-choice is another. The country was founded on freedom. Not just of religion but of choice as well. This bill infringes on that freedom. As far as I'm concerned, this bill goes against the intentions the founding fathers had when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights.

To a point I agree. Though with good intent it does force a little. I think that will most likely change though.
Here is why...
The forcing of what we talk about does not go into effect for awhile, and by then I think republicans will have more control. I am not a dem or rep so you know. This is one of the few reasons I would want reps to take control.
Sadly they will go overboard and take more of the bill than they should. I hope not but I think they will try.
By then though I think a public option will be in place.

The current bill is just a start. We can build on it and make it better.

[GameGeeks]

I'm also willing to admit there are some things on the bill that are good, but, in my opinion, the bad of the bill out weighs the good. Besides, Obama has said there are things on the bill that haven't been told to the public yet. And if something is kept hidden it's never a good thing.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

I'm also willing to admit there are some things on the bill that are good, but, in my opinion, the bad of the bill out weighs the good. Besides, Obama has said there are things on the bill that haven't been told to the public yet. And if something is kept hidden it's never a good thing.

Thats because it is good.
It has not been made public because opponets of the bill made public everything that was bad. Makes sense?
Also when did obama say that?

[GameGeeks]

Unfortunately, I don't remember where I heard he said that. You can ignore that if you wish since I can't provide evidence for that.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Unfortunately, I don't remember where I heard he said that. You can ignore that if you wish since I can't provide evidence for that.

Naw I will assume he said it.
It's true though.
the bill is long.
But it also makes sense that the worst of the bill would be known before the best.

[GameGeeks]

I can agree with that statement, but all that should have been changed was some reform in how health care works. Even some of the good things infringe on choice. Like you I'm not Republican or Democrat. I am, how ever, pro-choice and that wont change. Don't get me wrong, I value life but I think people should be able to choose what they want. Besides, the bigger issue is that the government ignores the people. That's the reason I made the leaving the country comment. More Americans are against the bill then for it.

[Acnologia]

So those who are poor shouldn't be allowed to get help? They should just be left to suffer? And don't give me spat on free clinics, those are bad enough.

[Skylar1]

I can agree with that statement, but all that should have been changed was some reform in how health care works. Even some of the good things infringe on choice. Like you I'm not Republican or Democrat. I am, how ever, pro-choice and that wont change. Don't get me wrong, I value life but I think people should be able to choose what they want. Besides, the bigger issue is that the government ignores the people. That's the reason I made the leaving the country comment. More Americans are against the bill then for it.

X

This is incorrect. Let's take a fresh look, (because I think all of this has caused some to forget) what the purpose of goverment really is.

The role of goverment is to:

1. Serve and uphold the constitution

and

2. Act to best serve and protect the people to the best of it's ablilities.



This bill goes against the wishes of the people? yes

This bill acts to best serve and protect the people to the best of it's ablilities? Yes

The government's job is to make sure that it's people are taken care of. Some time, yes, this means doing what they don't want. IF the government just did anything that the people wanted, then what, hypothetically speaking of course, could stop the people from instating a neo-nazi style government just because a majority of poeple wanted it? There needs to be regulations and limitations on what we as people can do to protect ourselfs from us.

Now, in my view personally, this is a land mark move in the push to finally make america more socialist. We still have a long way to go, but one day it will finally happen, and we have to keep fighting to protect what is important- to help those who need help.

[GameGeeks]

No, free clinics are really bad. Like I said, reform is fine, hell it's needed but this reform shouldn't cost Americans. If the government simply put more money into health care for people who can't afford it then that issue would be solved. They could easily create something like Medicare for the poor. Though I do believe Medicare needs some changes but that's a different issue. Would something like that still cost us? Sure, but not as much as this bill will. Besides that, reform for the average American shouldn't cost us anything since it should just be things that prevent us from getting health care due to what ever crap the provider uses (mainly health problems to begin with. And stop insurance companies from giving us the least amount they need to. Often times that's less then the cost of medical bills. For the most part, that's all I think should be done.

EDIT @Eric: I have to disagree with you on your opinion of the government. The government we have was meant to server the people, not do what it thinks is best for the people. It's job is to do what the people want, not what it thinks it wants. The whole reason the war of independence was fought was for freedom for the people. Freedom for people to do what they want. They created a government that reflected that. With elections every four to six years. To conclude, our government is here to serve us, and do what we think is best, not what they think is best for us.

[Skylar1]

EDIT @Eric: I have to disagree with you on your opinion of the government. The government we have was meant to server the people, not do what it thinks is best for the people. It's job is to do what the people want, not what it thinks it wants. The whole reason the war of independence was fought was for freedom for the people. Freedom for people to do what they want. They created a government that reflected that. With elections every four to six years. To conclude, our government is here to serve us, and do what we think is best, not what they think is best for us.

So, if a majority of americans think that killing and raping should be decriminalized, that is acting in the best interst of the people?

I'm sorry, but that system of government just does not make any sense. Why do you think we have a parliment at all? It's because if everything was left to a popular vote by the people, this country could easily end up turning out to be a very scary place my friend.

And as such, sometimes it is necessary, as the case with this bill, to vote to pass something (or not pass something) against the majority. THAT is how the framers and founders of this country set things up my friend. They didn't want absoulte control of the government OR the people. IF the framers of the constitution were alive today, I think they would be proud to see that the government was helping the people even though a majority of people didn't think it was necessary.

All about checks and balances here.

[GameGeeks]

Checks and Balances can be tossed out the window. Votes are decided by interest groups now. If the people wanted rape to be decriminalized then yeah, it should happen. Now do I want it to happen, no. The Founding Fathers counted on the fact that people are, for the most part, good. I still believe that, which is why I know the people don't want something like that to pass. This system does work as long as the people are decent human beings, which they are. The government we have now is simply corrupt. Those values have been lost.

[Skylar1]

Checks and Balances can be tossed out the window. Votes are decided by interest groups now. If the people wanted rape to be decriminalized then yeah, it should happen. Now do I want it to happen, no. The Founding Fathers counted on the fact that people are, for the most part, good. I still believe that, which is why I know the people don't want something like that to pass. This system does work as long as the people are decent human beings, which they are. The government we have now is simply corrupt. Those values have been lost.

I disagree. You can not count mearly on the good faith of people to do what is right. Sure, maybe it could work, but what happends when it doesn't?

uh-oh. now you have a problem because there's nothing to stop abuse.

But never fear, Parliment is here to save the day and make sure that the people don't just do whatever they want, and protect people from the harmful un-regulated businesses and corperations that until the government showed up, could let you buy tainted meat with broken shards of metal and glass and not get into trouble.

But that's what you want though right? Just let everyone do whatever they want because that was the people's will? Well enjoy you tainted meat with shards of broken metal and glass then.. =\


The people don't always know what's best for them. How is someone that works in construction going to know what's best for the economic output of the food industry? They don't. That's why we have educated people that went through YEARS of school and training who know what to do and what is best.

I trust my government. And I trust my government a whole heck of a lot more than I trust people.

[GameGeeks]

Yeah, you do know there are people in government that never went to say college, right? What you're describing is one of the very thing the Founding Fathers fought against. They wanted a government for the people by the people. Yes you can use that saying to your advantage but what they wanted still stands. Personally, I don't see how you can trust the government. I have no problems trusting strangers, I believe people are inherently good. I'm still cautious though, but I will still trust someone till they give me reason not to. As for your meat comment, people just wouldn't buy from vendors like that. Word would get around and they wouldn't get anymore business. We elect officials to represent us, they're not representing us. Come election time all you really get to do is pick the lesser of two evils. Only this time we made a mistake and chose the greater of two evils. Yes there are more then two candidates on a ballot, but there's only two that will ever win. Third party groups never win, unfortunately.

[Forgotten Show]

Once again everyone talks of this bill as if it's going to increase health care rather than attempt to better-cover health insurance.

Health care is not health insurance.

Nighthawk, your argument might be more valid if there were any country in Europe with remotely similar social structures, economies, and legislative powers as we have in the United States. One size does not fit all.

The role of goverment is to:

1. Serve and uphold the constitution

The duty of government is to serve and uphold the US Constitution. I'm glad you brought this up. Since the powers of the United States government are clearly defined within the US Constitution, please show exactly where this bill squares with the USC. Good luck.


Bad Memory

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Once again everyone talks of this bill as if it's going to increase health care rather than attempt to better-cover health insurance.

Health care is not health insurance.

Nighthawk, your argument might be more valid if there were any country in Europe with remotely similar social structures, economies, and legislative powers as we have in the United States. One size does not fit all.



The duty of government is to serve and uphold the US Constitution. I'm glad you brought this up. Since the powers of the United States government are clearly defined within the US Constitution, please show exactly where this bill squares with the USC. Good luck.


Bad Memory

Your right one size dose not fit all, but who is to say it wont work here?
Tell me how different is one country from another? It all depends.
Why do you group Europe all together? Just because they have simular healthcare? Thats just dumb.
When you get a real point come back.

Yes health insurance does have something to do with healthcare as it decides if you get any in the firsts place.

[Forgotten Show]

Your right one size dose not fit all, but who is to say it wont work here?
Tell me how different is one country from another? It all depends.

Yup. On a few things. Like:

A country a very small fraction of the physical size of another country, but with a population density almost 10 times greater, is going to have very different needs than than the much larger, much less densely populated country. Public service needs will be different, economies will be different, culture will be different. Don't forget the difference in money, both the amount on-hand and the ability to generate it, which will determine how much funding can be allocated to particular public programs.

What's the average income, adjusted for cost of living, of someone in Britain and someone in the United States? Why does cost of living differ by region? What's the average population density in which they live? What's the average rate of unemployment where they live? How does overall health of the average Brit compare to the average American?

Now compare and contrast the United States with any other country in Europe. Or any group of countries. Or all of Europe. It doesn't matter how you slice it, the United States is a very different country from thems folks across the pond. Despite what you read into my statement, I did not lump all of Europe together because they do not all have similar healthcare.

We have states more different than many countries. I think the onus is on you, and others who want health care coverage similar to those of other countries to prove how it would work here. It's not a good idea until someone shows why it's a bad idea; you've gotta show it to be a good idea in the first place.

Lemme know if this is a "real" enough point for you, good sir.

Yes health insurance does have something to do with healthcare as it decides if you get any in the firsts place.

Health insurance helps determine who pays. It does not determine quality of care. Plenty of folks have health insurance and see doctors regularly but aren't getting much in the way of quality. An insurance company even pointed out publicly that the bill does nothing at all to address the rising costs of medical treatments. You know, the things that need to be paid for and the things that can and very well might bring down the people our politicos say (incorrectly) have an obligation to provide for us.


Bad Memory

[Brittle Bullet]

Pro-life is one thing, pro-choice is another. The country was founded on freedom. Not just of religion but of choice as well. This bill infringes on that freedom. As far as I'm concerned, this bill goes against the intentions the founding fathers had when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights.

America's Founding Fathers also didn't intend for women and non-whites to have the right to vote either. When US was founded medicine wasn't past leechings and amputation, so their posthumous opinion on health care is inconsequential.