Lelouch(Zero) - Villain or Hero of Justice?

[blackrosetwilight]

Originally Posted by proEuphie

NIna didn't know Euphemia the way the viewers did. Nina did not see her at the Battle of Narita refusing to do what she desperately wanted to do for fear of endangering strangers.

Nina didn't see Euphemia triumph over Lelouch's hate and convince him to support her SAZ plan.

Nina didn't see Euphemia recognize Kallen as "the girl from the island" in a tone of voice that seemed remarkably non hostile to me considering that Kallen had shot at Euphie and Suzaku on the island.

Nina didn't see Euphemia apolagize to Zero for shooting harmlessly at his armored nightmare without complaining about Zero's nightmare destroying hers and probably scaring her half to death.

Nina didn't see Lelouch shoot Euphemia and didn't realize how easy it would have been for Lelouch to capture her alive.

Nina didn't see her resist her geass command at first, nor her odd behavior right before Lelouchs shot her indicating that she was almost totally free of the control of her geass command.

Nina didn't see Euphemia defeat her geass command in the Avalon sickbay. Suzaku did but probably didn't understand or ever report it accuratley to Nina.

Nina didn't see the gods obey Lelouch's geass command without resisting as Euphemia had resisted, and never knew that Euphemia's goodness enabled her to do what the gods themselves could not.

Nina may get over Euphemia;s death as real people tend to get over the death of loved ones.

But to me Euphemia was just a minor Code Geass character until I saw how easy it was for Lelouch to capture her alive and how senselessly evil it was to kill her. I only realized how special Euphemia was because for the last year I have been thinking about how evil her murder was. If she had survived to the end of the series I would not have noticed a lot of great things about her and would think of her as a really nice and good minor character.

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhh...(three hours later)...uuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhh...(another three hours passes by and I eats a hot dog with relish, chilli, cheese, onion, and some other stuff on top I found in the fridge and then spends two hours in the bathroom)...uuuuuuhhhhhhh...hmmmmmm OK you kind of just enforced my point about your undying admiration for Euphy.

[AznOtaku]

She's called the Euphinator for a reasons. Because she kills people. And killing people is bad. The end.

[xRiikox]

S'Obviously not the end for ProEuphie, though. Someone should just kick her. Lelouch killed lots of people, but Euphie did, too. Please do not argue about how helpless she is, we all know.

[kimi no kioku]

Originally Posted by proEuphie

NIna didn't know Euphemia the way the viewers did. Nina did not see her at the Battle of Narita refusing to do what she desperately wanted to do for fear of endangering strangers.

Nina didn't see Euphemia triumph over Lelouch's hate and convince him to support her SAZ plan.

Nina didn't see Euphemia recognize Kallen as "the girl from the island" in a tone of voice that seemed remarkably non hostile to me considering that Kallen had shot at Euphie and Suzaku on the island.

Nina didn't see Euphemia apolagize to Zero for shooting harmlessly at his armored nightmare without complaining about Zero's nightmare destroying hers and probably scaring her half to death.

Nina didn't see Lelouch shoot Euphemia and didn't realize how easy it would have been for Lelouch to capture her alive.

Nina didn't see her resist her geass command at first, nor her odd behavior right before Lelouchs shot her indicating that she was almost totally free of the control of her geass command.

Nina didn't see Euphemia defeat her geass command in the Avalon sickbay. Suzaku did but probably didn't understand or ever report it accuratley to Nina.

Nina didn't see the gods obey Lelouch's geass command without resisting as Euphemia had resisted, and never knew that Euphemia's goodness enabled her to do what the gods themselves could not.

Nina may get over Euphemia;s death as real people tend to get over the death of loved ones.

But to me Euphemia was just a minor Code Geass character until I saw how easy it was for Lelouch to capture her alive and how senselessly evil it was to kill her. I only realized how special Euphemia was because for the last year I have been thinking about how evil her murder was. If she had survived to the end of the series I would not have noticed a lot of great things about her and would think of her as a really nice and good minor character.

Listen honey, Euphy was my favorite character in R1. I almost quit watching when she died. I never liked Lelouch. I was for Suzaku-kun and Euphy the whole way. But her death made the show better, I actually like it when characters die, that's why in all the stories I write, a lot of the good characters die. I actually had a character in this thing I'm currently writing with a character alot like Euphy, and she dies. It happens, if you watched FMA(anime not manga/Brotherhood), there are a lot of really good people who died.

Your problem is, you can't understand that they're only characters. Lelouch changed and became a good person, he saved the world. Suzaku did alot of bad things too. In fact, everyone did. I understand that Euphy didn't deserve to die, my brother loved her. He said she was the only anime character he ever really fanboyed over. So I understand. But her death and everything was a plot twist, they happen alot. Go watch episode 25 of Fullmetal Alchemist, seriously. You see, in anime, characters do bad things alot, because if all the characters were like Euphy, it wouldn't be interesting. But by saying that everyone else is evil and Euphy killed all those people, but didn't deserve to die, you're contradicting yourself. I know it wasn't her will, but she did it.

Another thing, she wasn't going to attack Kallen because she saw her before. She looked Britannian. Obviously. She didn't attack Lelouch either, because she knew he was Britannian.

She's called the Euphinator for a reasons. Because she kills people. And killing people is bad. The end.

Not really, she's not bad because she didn't do it. You know what, it doesn't matter....

[proEuphie]

Originally Posted by AznOtaku

She's called the Euphinator for a reasons. Because she kills people. And killing people is bad. The end.

If killing people is bad, period, why didn't lelouch simply capture her alive as would have been so easy to do?

If killing people is bad, period, even when compelled to do so by a geass command, I remind you that Lelouch ordered the geass directorate massacre. Unless you were happy when Lleouch died you are dispalying a double standard.

[Rikumi]

He was a villain with a sense of ultimate justice.

[kimi no kioku]

Originally Posted by proEuphie

If killing people is bad, period, why didn't lelouch simply capture her alive as would have been so easy to do?

If killing people is bad, period, even when compelled to do so by a geass command, I remind you that Lelouch ordered the geass directorate massacre. Unless you were happy when Lleouch died you are dispalying a double standard.

He didn't order the massacre on purpose though.

[proEuphie]

Originally Posted by kimi no kioku

Listen honey, Euphy was my favorite character in R1. I almost quit watching when she died. I never liked Lelouch. I was for Suzaku-kun and Euphy the whole way. But her death made the show better, I actually like it when characters die, that's why in all the stories I write, a lot of the good characters die. I actually had a character in this thing I'm currently writing with a character alot like Euphy, and she dies. It happens, if you watched FMA(anime not manga/Brotherhood), there are a lot of really good people who died.

Your problem is, you can't understand that they're only characters. Lelouch changed and became a good person, he saved the world. Suzaku did alot of bad things too. In fact, everyone did. I understand that Euphy didn't deserve to die, my brother loved her. He said she was the only anime character he ever really fanboyed over. So I understand. But her death and everything was a plot twist, they happen alot. Go watch episode 25 of Fullmetal Alchemist, seriously. You see, in anime, characters do bad things alot, because if all the characters were like Euphy, it wouldn't be interesting. But by saying that everyone else is evil and Euphy killed all those people, but didn't deserve to die, you're contradicting yourself. I know it wasn't her will, but she did it.

Another thing, she wasn't going to attack Kallen because she saw her before. She looked Britannian. Obviously. She didn't attack Lelouch either, because she knew he was Britannian.



Not really, she's not bad because she didn't do it. You know what, it doesn't matter....

You say it would be boring if all the characters were as good as Euphemia. Here is a plot idea which some writers could turn into an interesting story:

I can picture a war story in which all the major characters are as good as Euphemia. And in which one or more of those characters eventually decides that he, she, or it has been fighting on the wrong side and switches sides. And this character may feel horribly guilty about all the people he, she, or it has killed while fighting for a side which he, she, or it now believes is the wrong side in the conflict.

But at least that character can take comfort in knowing that he, she, or it has always tried to prevent the deaths of noncombatants and win with as little killing as possible, and thus has much less blood on his, her, or its hands (or tentacles) than someone who fought without trying to reduce the deaths to a minimum.

And I was not complaining that all of the characters should have been as good as Euphemia. I was complaining about the fact that the protagonist was as evil as Lelouch. It is perfectly possible for a series to have a majority of characters who are not as good as Euphemia without having a a protagonist as evil as Lelouch. In fact, that describes the vast majority of tv shows.

As far as I can tell only Euphemia, Milly, and Rivalez were good and innocent characters. And only Euphemia was good and important. So without her the series is just evil characters fighting other evil characters. Killing her may have increased the melodrama but it did not make the series better, it eliminated all the good and important characters worth caring about, and thus removed any reason for the show to exist.

[kimi no kioku]

Originally Posted by proEuphie

You say it would be boring if all the characters were as good as Euphemia. He is aplot idea which some writers could turn into an interesting story:

I can picture a war story in which all the major characters are as good as Euphemia. And in which one or more of those characters eventually decides that he, she, or it has been fighting on the wrong side and switches sides. And this character may feel horribly guilty about all the people he, she, or it has killed while fighting for a side which he, she, or it now believes is the wrong side in the conflict.

But at least that character can take comfort in knowing that he, she, or it has always tried to prevent the deaths of noncombatants and win with as little killing as possible, and thus has much less blood on his, her, or its hands (or tentacles) than someone who fought without trying to reduce the deaths to a minimum.

And I was not complaining that all of the characters should have been as good as Euphemia. I was complaining about the fact that the protagonist was as evil as Lelouch. It is perfectly possible for a series to have a majority of characters who are not as good as Euphemia without having a a protagonist as evil as Lelouch. In fact, that describes the vast majority of tv shows.

As far as I can tell only Euphemia, Milly, and Rizalez were good and innocent characters. And only Euphemia was good and important. So without her the series is just evil characters fighting other evil characters. Killing her may have increased the melodrama but it did not make the series better, it eliminated all the good and important characters worth caring about, and thus removed any reason for the show to exist.

Lelouch wasn't really evil. He was bad, but not evil. Some real evil people are....
1. Frank Archer from Fullmetal Alchemist. He was going to kill an entire town full of civilians so he could become as famous as Roy.
2. Kujou fom Persona Trinity Soul. He used his daughter as a live experiment and when she died, he bought an orphanage so he could use all the kids in it. He gave them all special powers and was going to use them to bring his daughter back to life.
3. Light Yagami from Death Note. He wanted to kill all the criminals so he could become God.
4. Amshel Goldsmith from Blood Plus. He made sure that Diva would be unhappy that way she would never leave him so he could use her as a test subject forever.
5. James Goldsmith from Blood Plus. He got made at the Schiff(fake vampires that would all die of this ting called the Thorn. and dided if they were touched by sunlight.) He forced Moses to try and kill the human that cared about them(who he was jealous of because Diva liked him) and lied to him saying he would cure the Thorn on his frien. And while he was doing that, he went to where his friend was and opened all the windows.

Those people are evil. Lelouch at least changed, he got better. In R1, I didn't like him very much.

But you see, I like better main characters too. Like Edward Elric, Shin Kanzato, and Ichigo Kurosaki. But I think it's interesting to have them be anti-heroes sometimes too. I played this game once where the main character was to bad for me to even like, but he got better, just like Lelouch. I'm saying that it's more interesting if the main characters if the good guys have blood on their hands too.

I think that you're wrong on how everyone was evil. Suzaku wasn't evil, he was a little dark, but not evil. Your definition of good must be very very good. Btw, how was Shirley evil exactly?

[proEuphie]

Originally Posted by kimi no kioku

Lelouch wasn't really evil. He was bad, but not evil. Some real evil people are....
1. Frank Archer from Fullmetal Alchemist. He was going to kill an entire town full of civilians so he could become as famous as Roy.
2. Kujou fom Persona Trinity Soul. He used his daughter as a live experiment and when she died, he bought an orphanage so he could use all the kids in it. He gave them all special powers and was going to use them to bring his daughter back to life.
3. Light Yagami from Death Note. He wanted to kill all the criminals so he could become God.
4. Amshel Goldsmith from Blood Plus. He made sure that Diva would be unhappy that way she would never leave him so he could use her as a test subject forever.
5. James Goldsmith from Blood Plus. He got made at the Schiff(fake vampires that would all die of this ting called the Thorn. and dided if they were touched by sunlight.) He forced Moses to try and kill the human that cared about them(who he was jealous of because Diva liked him) and lied to him saying he would cure the Thorn on his frien. And while he was doing that, he went to where his friend was and opened all the windows.

Those people are evil. Lelouch at least changed, he got better. In R1, I didn't like him very much.

But you see, I like better main characters too. Like Edward Elric, Shin Kanzato, and Ichigo Kurosaki. But I think it's interesting to have them be anti-heroes sometimes too. I played this game once where the main character was to bad for me to even like, but he got better, just like Lelouch. I'm saying that it's more interesting if the main characters if the good guys have blood on their hands too.

I think that you're wrong on how everyone was evil. Suzaku wasn't evil, he was a little dark, but not evil. Your definition of good must be very very good. Btw, how was Shirley evil exactly?

1) I say that Lelouch was about as evil as Frank Archer from Full Metal Alchemist. Lelouch created a landslide which was bigger than he expected and engulfed the town of Narita (population over 90,000 in our world). Lelouch didn't seem very worried or sorry when he thought that he should have consulted an expert. Was he merely planning what he would say if some of the Black Knights asked him about the devastation? Did he even know that Narita had been evacuated by the Britannians (probably because Euphemia was involved) and thus probably only a few hundred people were killed in the town?

3) Perhaps Lelouch was as evil as "Dark" Yagami. Perhaps Lelouch also wanted to become a god in the eyes of the people of the world by slaughtering thousands of people he considered wrong doers. Remember when he told Euphemia he would rise from death and prove to the Japanese he was their true mesiah and that she was a false messiah? That sounds like Lelouch had aspirations to godhood or near godhood.

Perhaps Lelouch's plan was to become two gods. A terrifying evil god, Emperor Lelouch, who would be remembered forever as the worst of the worst (a lot of teenage boys seem to think that is a great reputation), and a beloved savior hero god Zero, who would be considered infallibly good by the masses who didn't know Zero's dirty little secrets.

4) Amshel Goldsmith -- you say he was evil because he kept Diva unhappy? He was evil because of a little personal cruelty and meanness? How about saying he was evil because he let Diva and her followers kill thousands of people over the centuries and perhaps someday enslave all humanity as their blood sources?

You say that Lelouch got better over the series. I think that you mean that his ratio of good and evil deeds shifted more toward the good.

But I define an evil person as a person who historically has committed at least one evil deed.

Suppose that a fictional character, like Lelouch, started out doing 100 ordinary deeds, 10 good deeds, and 1 evil deed each week, and later shifted to doing 400 ordinary deeds, 40 good deeds, and 1 evil deed per month. He would be getting better and less dangerous in the sense that the probability that he would do an evil deed would decrease. But according to my definition he would become more evil each time that he did something evil, and so the improvement in his behavior would slow the rate at which he became more evil but would not make him less evil.

You say its more interesting if the good guys have blood on their hands. If the main characters are involved in a war or revolution they are certain to have blood on their hands. but I don't like it if the blood is the blood of innocent murder victims or people they killed when they knew they didn't have to kill them.

I hear that many policemen, soldiers and others who kill in the line of duty and perhaps are considered heroes for it suffer a lot of guilt over those killing. Maybe not all of them feel a lot of guilt, but many do. And who am I to say that there is not a lot of justification for their guilt feelings? I say that any warrior or military or political leader involved in wars and revolutions, even if they are as careful to avoid unnecessary killing as Euphemia at Narita or Suzaku during most of the first season, will have enough blood on their hands to give them a considerable amount of interesting guilt, and enough to make them less than totally pure and innocent and (in the eyes of some viewers) bland and dull. I say that any worse blood on their hands is too much.

Why do I say that almost all the characters are evil? Because of the terrorist acts committed by the JLF in "Black Knight" and because Ogri's rebel group were described as terrorists in the first episode, and because the rebels in the Saitema Ghetto in "Get Cornelia" are described as terrorists. If some of the Japanese rebels are terrorists the other Japanese rebels and all the other Japanese have to show their disgust at the terrorist tactics of the terrorists by giving up on their hope of an independent Japan. As long as the Japanese tolerate terrorism by some of the rebels and are willing to live in an independent Japan which regains its independence by terrorism they are all evil.

In our world, I say that all Basques are evil and will remain evil until they show their disgust at the terrorism of the ETA, seeking an independent Basque homeland, by selling their property to non Basques and moving out of the Basque homeland and scattering themselves all over the world, putting an end to all the hopes of the ETA.

I say that all Algerians are evil and will remain evil until they show their disgust at the terrorist campaign which gained Algerian independence by selling their property in Algeria to non Algerians and moving out and scattering themselves all over the world, thus putting an end to the nation which was created by a terrorist campaign.

Since the Britannian army commits massacres and other atrocities all Britannians who do not protest those crimes or try to stop them are evil. Since the Britannians oppress the numbers too much, all Britannians who do not try to reduce the level of oppression down to the correct level are evil.

As far as I know the only Britannians except Lelouch interested in reducing Britannian oppression were Euphemia and Suzaku. In the first season Suzaku tried to fight without killing anyone (with the possible exception of "Black Knight") and thus was a shining example for his massacring fellow soldiers to be inspired by and emulate (if any did). When Euphemia insisted on being preent at the Battle of Narita there were no known Britannian atrocities (I suspect cause and effect relationship) and Euphemia refused to do anything which might endanger the lives of civilians.

So the possible good characters are down to Euphemia, Suzaku, Shirley, Milly, and Rivalez. Shirley, Milly, and Rivalez are not part of military and political organizations and aren't involved in a lot of situations where they can choose between doing good or evil.

Suzaku used F.R.E.I.J.A. to kill millions during the second season, and thus was evil unless his geass command forced him to do it against his will. Suzaku helped in the Zero Requiem and thus probably let the "Evil Emperor Lelouch" do the evil deeds which gathered all the hate in the world. I suppose that Suzaku would justify taking part in such evil by saying it was a means to a greater good and it must be the only way to bring peace to the world if even Lelouch couldn't think of a better way. You may guess my opinion about Lelouch's ability to always chose the best way to achieve his goals or any faith Suzaku might have had in that ability.

It has been pointed out to me that Shirley shot Villeta, not in self defense and unaware of Villeta's attempt to frame Suzaku for murder. Thus Shirley should probably be considered an evil character.

[kimi no kioku]

Originally Posted by proEuphie

1) I say that Lelouch was about as evil as Frank Archer from Full Metal Alchemist. Lelouch created a landslide which was bigger than he expected and engulfed the town of Narita (population over 90,000 in our world). Lelouch didnn't seem very worried or sorry when he thought that he should have consulted an expert. Was he merely planning what he would say if some of the Black Knights asked him about the devastion? Did he even know that Narita had been evacuated by the Britanians (probably because Euphemia was involved) and thus only a few hundred people were probably killed in the town?

3) Perhaps Lelouch was as evil as "Dark" Yagami. Perhaps Lelouch also wanted to become a god in the eyes of the people of the world by slaughtering thousands of people he considered wrong doers. Remember when he told Euphemia he would rise from death and prove to the Japanese he was their true mesiah and that she was a false messiah? That sounds like Lelouch had aspirations to godhood or near godhood.

Perhaps Lelouch's plan was to become two gods. A terrifying evil god, Emperor Lelouch, who would be remembered forever as the worst of the worst (a lot of teenage boys seem to think that is a great reputation), and a beloved savior hero god Zero, who would be considered infalliby good by the masses who didn't know Zero's dirty little secrets.

4) Amshel Goldsmith -- you say he was evil because he kept Diva unhappy? He was evil because of a little personal cruelty and meanness? How about saying he was evil because he let Diva and her followers kill thougsands of people over the centuries and perhaps someday enslave all humanity as their mblood sources?

1.) Lelouch didn't do it for fame, he did it to fix the world. Archer did it out of Jealousy, Lelouch did it to fix things.

2.) I don't see two on your list

3.) Lelouch never wanted to become God. He wanted to destroy Britannia and create a world where him and his sister didn't have to live in fear. Lelouch DID NOT do the Zero Requiem for fame or to be remembered, he did it to get rid of hate to make people forget about the crimes of your goddess Euphemia.(Sorry to be rude, it's late and I'm cranky)



4.) I actually liked Diva in Blood Plus, I'm a big Saya hater. You don't get it, huh? Diva was evil because she was raised that way. Amshel hated humans, so he wanted her to kill them and make Chevaliers so that they could wipe out the human race. He was the REAL bad guy, not Diva. Saya was much worse, you can see it on the episode that Kai argues about Irene with her. She wanted to kill all the Chiroptians(sp?) even if they weren't evil, like the Schiff, who become their allies later. Solomon, Carl, and Moses weren't evil. Carl went crazy because AMSHEL forced him to become a Chevalier. Solomon was sick of hate, AMSHEL convinced him to become a Chevalier because he was depressed. Moses and all the other Schiff, were just unfortunate and uneducated. But Amshel was the one who made it possible for them to get the Thorn anyway.


Can you say off topic?

[proEuphie]

Originally Posted by kimi no kioku

1.) Lelouch didn't do it for fame, he did it to fix the world. Archer did it out of Jealousy, Lelouch did it to fix things.

How do you know what all of Lelouch's motives were? How could Lelouch himself know for sure what his motives were for his various actions?

Originally Posted by kimi no kioku

2.) I don't see two on your list

I am not familiar with that anime. If the man's daughter dies as a result of his experiments on her that sounds evil. But the part about giving kids superpowers and planning to use those powers to bring his daughter back to life sounds like he repented of his evil and was trying to make amends, much as you say Lelouch did. Unless you left out the part where the orphans given superpowrs would die or be seriously harmed in the process.

Originally Posted by kimi no kioku

3.) Lelouch never wanted to become God. He wanted to destroy Britannia and create a world where him and his sister didn't have to live in fear. Lelouch DID NOT do the Zero Requiem for fame or to be remembered, he did it to get rid of hate to make people forget about the crimes of your goddess Euphemia.(Sorry to be rude, it's late and I'm cranky)

YOu say that Lelouch only wanted to destroy Britannia. "Only"?. Someone else once wrote that Llelouch didn't exterminate the Britannians but merely destroyed the infrastructure in Britannia. If Lelouch destroyed the Britannian infrastructure he woud make it impossible for many millions of Britannians to get what they nended to survive. He would have been causing countless mllions of future deaths.

And how did Lleouch's wars and revolutions make it possible for him and Nunnally to live without fear? Lelouch gave up his life. He certainly did not live would fear as a result. And how was the world any safer for Nunnally at the end of the series than at the beginning? If llelouch was so worried about Britannian danger to himself and Nunnally why didn't he do something obvious to reduce that risk? Like changing their first names as well as their last names? Like getting the Ashfords to buy them a house in some land that was not ruled by Britannia?

And how could all the crimes of "Evil Emperor Lelouch" make people forget the fuji massacre? I say the crimes of Yahya Khan have not made me forget the crimes of Genghis Khan. I say the crimes of Idi Amin, Hitler, Salin, Pol Pot, Vlad the Impaler, Tamerlane, Attila the Hun, etc. etc. will all be remembered for thousands of years more, despite all the evil doers who will appear in the future and be more recent.

Originally Posted by kimi no kioku

4.) I actually liked Diva in Blood Plus, I'm a big Saya hater. You don't get it, huh? Diva was evil because she was raised that way. Amshel hated humans, so he wanted her to kill them and make Chevaliers so that they could wipe out the human race. He was the REAL bad guy, not Diva. Saya was much worse, you can see it on the episode that Kai argues about Irene with her. She wanted to kill all the Chiroptians(sp?) even if they weren't evil, like the Schiff, who become their allies later. Solomon, Carl, and Moses weren't evil. Carl went crazy because AMSHEL forced him to become a Chevalier. Solomon was sick of hate, AMSHEL convinced him to become a Chevalier because he was depressed. Moses and all the other Schiff, were just unfortunate and uneducated. But Amshel was the one who made it possible for them to get the Thorn anyway.

You say that Diva was only evil because of the way she was raised.

I say that in the Lord of the Rings the fact that Wormtongue was corrupted and seduced into evil by Saruman does not make Wormtongue's evil less evil. The fact that Saruman was tempted by Sauron does not make Saruman's evil less evil. The fact that Sauron was led astray and turned evil by Morgoth does not make Sauron's evil any less evil.

Diva's upbringing may be the historical reason why she was evil but that doesn't make any of the thousands of people she let her chiropitans(?) kill any less dead.

Diva could have put pressure on Amshiel to find ways for chiroptians to get blood without killing humans, if she was a good person. Just as Saya could have demanded that her organization develop ways to capture Chiroptians alive and keep them prisoners in safety to themselves and humans, if she was good enough to want to reduce her killing to a minimum.

Kai persuaded Saya not to kill Irene and the schiff. And Kai persuaded Saya not to kill Diva's babies but raise them in love the way Diva should have been raised. Saya could be persuaded to change her evil aims into good ones.

But Diva found herself attracted to Riku so she raped him and then killed him as was automatic for her. And later when she was bored and wished she had "that boy" to amuse her I felt like telling her "If you didn't always break your toys when done playing with them you could have them to play with again when you wanted to."

I say that Diva was much eviler than Saya.

Originally Posted by kimi no kioku

Can you say off topic?

Off topic.

[Wio]

Imagine if his plan failed half way and Schneizel won the war (it was a very possible out come, even Zero should know that he was gambling here). Then he would have just been an apple-hat. I thought it was a pretty big gamble myself, considering how Zero had NEVER beaten Schneizel in a game a chess.

Even so, does anyone really think that what Zero did lead to world peace? It's not like all the hatred towards Zero magically erased the hatred amongst all the countries, nor did it kill all potential aspirations of world domination. But even so, let's just pretend that it did.

Essentially, we have a village idiot who stole all the towns money, invested it in a bunch of OTCs, won big, and redistributed it back to the town. Even if you think he's a hero, he's still the village idiot.

[Crazyjavi87]

He's neither a villain or a hero with a sense of justice

He's did those things, more or less, for his own(or rather his sister's) gain. He had no sense of justice to call himself a hero, yet he had not done anything truly evil enough to call him a villain. Throughout the whole anime he was thinking of a plan to gain nunnaly's peaceful world. He chose the sacrifices that needed to be made, and he did what others would not do.

Of course, there are times when Lelouche seemed like a complete villain. Then there are times he was seen as a hero. Those times were times when he was manipulating people at very conviently chosen spots.

Also Wio, what Zero did with the world essentially happened with Hitler during WW2. Sure the wars won't stop, and sure it won't erase the hatred agmonst countries(or potentional dr.evils apparently.), but he brought in a -time- of peace. Not world peace.

But it allowed a time of peace. And shortly after the anime would be something like that cold war. Well, that's what I think anyways.

[kimi no kioku]

Originally Posted by proEuphie

How do you know what all of Lelouch's motives were? How could Lelouch himself know for sure what his motives were for his various actions?



I am not familiar with that anime. If the man's daughter dies as a result of his experiments on her that sounds evil. But the part about giving kids superpowers and planning to use those powers to bring his daughter back to life sounds like he repented of his evil and was trying to make amends, much as you say Lelouch did. Unless you left out the part where the orphans given superpowrs would die or be seriously harmed in the process.



YOu say that Lelouch only wanted to destroy Britannia. "Only"?. Someone else once wrote that Llelouch didn't exterminate the Britannians but merely destroyed the infrastructure in Britannia. If Lelouch destroyed the Britannian infrastructure he woud make it impossible for many millions of Britannians to get what they nended to survive. He would have been causing countless mllions of future deaths.

And how did Lleouch's wars and revolutions make it possible for him and Nunnally to live without fear? Lelouch gave up his life. He certainy did not live would fear as a result. And how was the world any safer for Nunnally at the end of the series than at the beginning? If lleouch was so worried about Britannian danger to himself and Nunnally why didn't he do something obvious to reduce that risk? Like changing their first names as well as their last names? Like getting the Ashfords to buy them a house in some land that was not ruled by Britannia?

And how could all the crimes of "Evil Emperor Lelouch" make people forget the fuji massacre? I say the crimes of Yahya Khan have not made me forget the crimes of Genghis Khan. I say the crimes of Idi Amin, Hitler, Salin, Pol Pot, Vlad the Impaler, Tamerlane, Attila the Hun, etc. etc. will all be rmembered for thousands of years more, despite all the evil doers who will appear in the future and be more recent.




You say that Diva was only evil because of the way she was raised.

I say that in the Lord of the Rings the fact that Wormtongue was corrupted and seduced into evil by Saruman does not make Wormtongue's evil less evil. The fact that Saruman was tempted by Sauron does not make Saruman's evil less evil. The fact that Sauron was led astray and turned evil by Morgoth does not make Sauron's evil any less evil.

Diva's upbringing may be the historical reason why she was evil but that doesn't make any of the thousands of people she let her chiropitans(?) kill any less dead.

Diva could have put pressure on Amshiel to find ways for chiroptians to get blood without killing humans, if she was a good person. Just as Saya could have demanded that her organization develop ways to capture Chiroptians alive and keep them prisoners in safety to themselves and humans, if she was good enough to want to reduce her killing to a minimum.

Kai persuaded Saya not to kill Irene and the schiff. And Kai persuaded Saya not to kill Diva's babies but raise them in love the way Diva should have been raised. Saya could be persuaded to change her evil aims into good ones.

But Diva found herself attracted to Riku so she raped him and then killed him as was automatic for her. And later when she was bored and wished she had "that boy" to amuse her I felt like telling her "If you didn't always break your toys when done playing with them you could have them to play with again when you wanted to."

I say that Diva was much eviler than Saya.



Off topic.

I don't go by "what ifs" I go by what I see in the show. Like the viewer is supposed to.


No, since you haven't seen Trinity Soul, you wouldn't understand. He gave the kids powers, that were going to kill them. Not only that he was raising the kids to rip out people's souls to grow more powerful and convinced them it was the only way they could survive. Not only that, he made a bunch of dolls of his daughter and was going to rip out all the kids souls and try to recreate her soul using theirs, that's evil.


Lelouch wanted to erase that, not saying he actually did. He tried to. Lelouch tried to be good, you have to understand that. He tried to make the world a better place, he did some bad things, but don't all people? Not quite to the extent of murder, but he didn't do it for a terrible reason(besides revenge which he gives up in R2). Personally, I don't know why he didn't do that. I guess he liked being a Britannian, just not Britannia(lol) I suppose he didn't change his first name because the creator liked the name Lelouch too much. And he didn't move away because since he was Britannian he would be treated poorly.

Diva didn't care about humans, because she was raised as a vampire. Saya loved humans because she had a close connection with humans. Diva never had that, watch episode 49 and I think she mentions that. I wouldn't care what happened to them if I was raised thinking they were a food source nothing more.

Yeah she was more evil, but Saya was bad too. I never remember Saya telling hem to capture the Chiroptians. She said she had to kill all of them. She says it like 200 times.


EDIT!

It has been pointed out to me that Shirley shot Villeta, not in self defense and unaware of Villeta's attempt to frame Suzaku for murder. Thus Shirley should probably be considered an evil character.

She felt bad about it. How can you see someone as evil if they do one bad thing or regret what they've done? Evil is when you don't even see that it was wrong, IMO at least.

[Rolo Vi Britannia]

Originally Posted by proEuphie

How do you know what all of Lelouch's motives were? How could Lelouch himself know for sure what his motives were for his various actions?



I am not familiar with that anime. If the man's daughter dies as a result of his experiments on her that sounds evil. But the part about giving kids superpowers and planning to use those powers to bring his daughter back to life sounds like he repented of his evil and was trying to make amends, much as you say Lelouch did. Unless you left out the part where the orphans given superpowrs would die or be seriously harmed in the process.



YOu say that Lelouch only wanted to destroy Britannia. "Only"?. Someone else once wrote that Llelouch didn't exterminate the Britannians but merely destroyed the infrastructure in Britannia. If Lelouch destroyed the Britannian infrastructure he woud make it impossible for many millions of Britannians to get what they nended to survive. He would have been causing countless mllions of future deaths.

And how did Lleouch's wars and revolutions make it possible for him and Nunnally to live without fear? Lelouch gave up his life. He certainly did not live would fear as a result. And how was the world any safer for Nunnally at the end of the series than at the beginning? If llelouch was so worried about Britannian danger to himself and Nunnally why didn't he do something obvious to reduce that risk? Like changing their first names as well as their last names? Like getting the Ashfords to buy them a house in some land that was not ruled by Britannia?

And how could all the crimes of "Evil Emperor Lelouch" make people forget the fuji massacre? I say the crimes of Yahya Khan have not made me forget the crimes of Genghis Khan. I say the crimes of Idi Amin, Hitler, Salin, Pol Pot, Vlad the Impaler, Tamerlane, Attila the Hun, etc. etc. will all be remembered for thousands of years more, despite all the evil doers who will appear in the future and be more recent.




You say that Diva was only evil because of the way she was raised.

I say that in the Lord of the Rings the fact that Wormtongue was corrupted and seduced into evil by Saruman does not make Wormtongue's evil less evil. The fact that Saruman was tempted by Sauron does not make Saruman's evil less evil. The fact that Sauron was led astray and turned evil by Morgoth does not make Sauron's evil any less evil.

Diva's upbringing may be the historical reason why she was evil but that doesn't make any of the thousands of people she let her chiropitans(?) kill any less dead.

Diva could have put pressure on Amshiel to find ways for chiroptians to get blood without killing humans, if she was a good person. Just as Saya could have demanded that her organization develop ways to capture Chiroptians alive and keep them prisoners in safety to themselves and humans, if she was good enough to want to reduce her killing to a minimum.

Kai persuaded Saya not to kill Irene and the schiff. And Kai persuaded Saya not to kill Diva's babies but raise them in love the way Diva should have been raised. Saya could be persuaded to change her evil aims into good ones.

But Diva found herself attracted to Riku so she raped him and then killed him as was automatic for her. And later when she was bored and wished she had "that boy" to amuse her I felt like telling her "If you didn't always break your toys when done playing with them you could have them to play with again when you wanted to."

I say that Diva was much eviler than Saya.



Off topic.

Diva was more evil than Saya, but Diva wasn't pure evil(though she was pretty damn close) She bothered me a few times, but only because they made her act like a freaking little kid. Overall though, Saya and Diva were evil. Saya was genocidal and Diva was crazy. Kai actually didn't. Moses did when he begged her to save Irene.

Back to Lelouch and other on topic Code Geass topics.

Lelouch wasn't evil for what he did to Euphy, that was necessary, and don't try to tell me he could capture her and wait until she got over the Geass. NO ONE DOES THAT. Nunnally breaks it because Charles was dead, thus it was weaker. Most likely at least. Or because her will to see and stop Lelouch was stronger than Charles's will. CC and VV cannot break the Geass. CC does because she sends his mind to C's World and returns his memory. I doubt CC planting one on Euphy's lips would have made her think that the Elevens should live.

Lelouch believed he could be so evil, no one would talk about Euphy anymore. Not everything Lelouch said was meant to be literal.

She felt bad about it. How can you see someone as evil if they do one bad thing or regret what they've done? Evil is when you don't even see that it was wrong, IMO at least.

Thant's not really true. I could do something terrible and feel bad later, but it didn't stop me from doing it in the first place. Where do you think the phrase, "it seemed like a good idea at the time." came from?

How could Lelouch himself know for sure what his motives were for his various actions?

What the hell do you mean?

[proEuphie]

Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia

Lelouch wasn't evil for what he did to Euphy, that was necessary, and don't try to tell me he could capture her and wait until she got over the Geass. NO ONE DOES THAT. Nunnally breaks it because Charles was dead, thus it was weaker. Most likely at least. Or because her will to see and stop Lelouch was stronger than Charles's will. CC and VV cannot break the Geass. CC does because she sends his mind to C's World and returns his memory. I doubt CC planting one on Euphy's lips would have made her think that the Elevens should live.

Lelouch was evil for what he did to Euphie. It is never necessary to kill someone if capturing them alive will do just as well to protect other people from that person and will be just as safe, as fast, and as easy as killing them.

Capturing Euphemia would do just as well as killing her to protect the Japanese at Fuji from her. And once Euphemia's nightmare was destroyed Lelouch must have been aware of how easy it would be to capture her alive. Thus Lelouch decided to kill her when he knew that capturing her alive would be really safe and easy and would be just as good as killing her for any good and decent purpose like saving the lives of innocent people.

And Lelouch could capture her and wait until she got over the geass. It didn't matter if that took her ten minutes or ten years, a hundred days or a hundred years. As long as she was confined with good security until she got over the geass or died, Euphemia would never have to chance to kill any more Japanese people.

Every Japanese person would sometimes worry about what would happen if Euphemia escaped and tried to kill him. And every year hundreds or thousands of those Japanese people would be murdered by other Japanese persons. In a decade or two innocent Japanese babies who where born after the Fuji Massacre would start to grow old enough that a few of them would murder other Japanese people. Generation after generation of innocent Japanese babies would grow up and some of them would murder other Japanese people while Euphemia was confined and every Japanese persons sometimes worried about her potential danger to him.

Any person who is free, no matter how little he may want to kill you now, is a bigger danger to you than any person who is confined with good security measures, no matter how much he might want to kill you now. So it would be perfectly practical for Lelouch to capture Euphemia and confine her until she got over the geass or died of old age.

What do you mean that nobody gets over the geass? Haven't you seen my thread arguing that Euphemia probably escaped from the control of her geass right before Lelouch shot her?

Anyway, the events of the series take place over two years or less, which is the longest amount of time one of Lelouch's geass commands could have been observed to control someone. And I have never heard of any examples of any other type of geass known to last for more than ten years. It is perfectly possible that geas commands would fade away after ten years or some other period longer than ten years but shorter than a human lifetime.

Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia

Lelouch believed he could be so evil, no one would talk about Euphy anymore. Not everything Lelouch said was meant to be literal.

So you mean that people wouldn't forget about her massacre but would think and talk abut the much more sensational crimes of the "Evil Emperor Lelouch" instead? I thought that sometime during the Zero Requiem the "Evil Emperor Lelouch" announced that he had used black magic to make Euphemia order the massacre, thus clearing her name. If so, it wouldn't matter how often people thought and talked about the Fuji massacre, as long as they all realized that Euphemia was innocent.

so there would be no need for "Evil Emperor Lelouch" to be so evil if it was just in order to make people stop condemning Euphemia for the Fuji Massacre, since the confession of the "Evil Emperor Lelouch" would stop people from condemning Euphemia for the Fuji Massacre. If the desire to make people stop thinking badly of Euphemia made made Lelouch be even a little more evil than he needed to be to gather all the hatred in the world for the Zero Requiem, that extra evil was unnecessary once Lelouch confessed to making Euphemia order the Fuji Massacre.

Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia

Thant's not really true. I could do something terrible and feel bad later, but it didn't stop me from doing it in the first place. Where do you think the phrase, "it seemed like a good idea at the time." came from?

Yes. I have pointed out several times that almost everyone would feel some guilt and regret over killing someone, no no matter what the circumstances. Thus Lelouch's mild regret for killing Euphemia does not make him innocent of murdering her.

Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia

What the hell do you mean?

I mean exactly what I say. I wrote that even Lelouch might not know why he killed Euphemia or did anything else that he did. People often do things for several reasons. People often do things for conscious and subconscious reasons, and they are only dimly aware of their subconscious reasons.

[小美ドクロchan]

Haha, I'm gonna be cliche and say "Lelouch isn't a villian or a hero....he's just awesome?

Was probably already said...but yeah. XD; But on a serious note, I think the creators wanted to write him that way....There's no black-and-white area-the viewer decides on what kind of a person he's supposed to be and that's pretty cool.