The problem with "Pride"

[Ericgamer1]

Because Eric doesn't want to derail his own thread. Branched from this thread.

Well, "pride" implies accomplishment. Ex: "look at this pretty picture I drew! I'm so proud of myself".

Since no one -chooses- their gender, it's interesting how you can be proud of it.

Kind of like being proud of... your zip code, or something.

Well, you don't choose your nationality/ethnicity either, but there is a lot of "Asian Pride", "Italian Pride", "Mexican Pride", groups/mentalities, so how is that any different?

It's not. And I consider those things to be just as fallacious all the same.

Imo, people really need to get over themselves.

Well, that's incredibly lame. Ethnicity and gender are obviously different, but there's no reason you shouldn't be proud of your cultural pride.

Pride is a feeling of self-respect and personal worth; it's not just based on accomplishments. So that's fallacious.

But, what if I wanted "Spanish Pride" or to be proud of being Chinese, or something?

I can't. Because I am white, and one can not change their own ethnicity.

If it can not be changed, nor choose, for what purpose or reason does one have to feel a sense of Hubris?

As for gender, I can see how being "proud" is a bit odd, but I don't know. Cultural pride isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

Because it divides and separates us. It's basically "I'm glad I'm X ethnicity".. which is another way of saying "I'm glad I'm -not- anything but the ethnicity that I am"; which is a reflection on all other ethnicitys.

Persons should be neutral to what they are, otherwise, "pride" can easily become hate and prejudice, which it often does.

[Eris]

Yeah, I've been using this argument against national pride for ages. You can't (or rather, shouldn't) be proud of something that has been randomly assigned to you, so the only people who can truly be proud of their country would be those who have chosen to live where they live (i.e. immigrants).

[-GAZKUL-]

yeah that ^

[Aku no Hikari]

Yeah, I've been using this argument against national pride for ages. You can't (or rather, shouldn't) be proud of something that has been randomly assigned to you, so the only people who can truly be proud of their country would be those who have chosen to live where they live (i.e. immigrants).

But based on your argument, you can be proud of the country you were born in if you choose to continue to live in it. It's still a choice, which is, based on your own argument, something you can be proud of.

[Eris]

But based on your argument, you can be proud of the country you were born in if you choose to continue to live in it. It's still a choice, which is, based on your own argument, something you can be proud of.

You have all your friends and family in your country, as well as an understanding of the culture and language, making the option of moving much more costly than the option of staying for reasons that have nothing to do with your country (as if you had been born somewhere else, you would have likely chosen to stay there instead, for the same reasons.)

[Miss Moonlight]

As I said in the the other post, pride has more than one definition. It isn't just based on accomplishments.

It can of course, change into egotism and conflict can arise from it, but I still don't see why you can't be proud of your heritage and the skills and traits you inherited from it.

[Aku no Hikari]

You have all your friends and family in your country, as well as an understanding of the culture and language, making the option of moving much more costly than the option of staying for reasons that have nothing to do with your country (as if you had been born somewhere else, you would have likely chosen to stay there instead, for the same reasons.)

But it's still a choice. The cost of the choice doesn't change the fact that it's a choice. I know a lot of people who left their friends, families and everyone and moved to another country.

If we're going to consider everything that influences the choice, then that means that immigrants more often than not can't be proud of the country the moved to, because most of the time they had to move. Or simply, living in that country was "less costly".

Human beings always choose the "best available option" (and that's a very tricky statement); other options are always "less costly" than the option we choose. That means we can never be proud of anything, because we're just a decision making machine.

---------- Post added at 10:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 PM ----------

Note that I'm not saying we -should- be "proud". Like Miss Moonlight said, the word pride can have more than one meaning. Eris was talking about choice. But OP was more like talking about blind pride without choice, as well as about pride in the sense that it causes hate, discrimination and prejudice. Also, Eris was arguing about when we can or cannot be proud, OP was saying we should eliminate pride altogether, based on consequences.

So, for the sake of the argument, I'd like to use two dimensions to determine when pride is a good or a bad thing. The first dimension is choice and contentment, the other dimension is the nature, and thus, consequences of this pride.

On the first dimension, pride is meaningless without choice, and we got that down. Whether or not you consider it a choice depends on you, really. If you're not content with your situation, you have no reason to be proud of it.

On the other dimension, pride can range from a harmless feeling of contentment and "belonging", to feelings of superiority, bigotry, hatred, prejudice, etc. I don't see a problem in being in the former. (Although if you ask me, I'm rather apathetic about feelings of "belonging", like a lot of other things).

I think this pretty much resolves it.

[The Angelic Anathema]

Persons should be neutral to what they are, otherwise, "pride" can easily become hate and prejudice, which it often does.

People should be many things they aren't; why argue against the nature of humanity?

But, what if I wanted "Spanish Pride" or to be proud of being Chinese, or something?

I can't. Because I am white, and one can not change their own ethnicity.

Implying parents can't be proud of their children's accomplishments.


There was this really famous book that summed up this whole pride business...
:>

Proverbs 11:2
When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.

Proverbs 18:12
Before his downfall a man's heart is proud, but humility comes before honor.

The world crumbles and dies in excess of anything; pride is no exception, however, why would anyone do something to their best if they couldn't feel pride in the results?

Because it divides and separates us.

I'd rather be divided and separate than single and boring, but that could just be me~

edit: Well soggy goose farts; I'm late >_<

[Amber]

Well, I think I can be proud of my nationality, it's not really "randomly assigned", it's more like... something that is given to you when born.
You can be proud to be Dutch, because Dutch people are epic... And their soccer team rules, I'm proud of our orange lions.

Maybe it's just a different kind of pride than when you're proud of a prestation of yours, in my opinion, that is.

[Aku no Hikari]

Mr. Sadist (...like always) said things that I don't feel like arguing. But he did mention one right thing: humility.

It's ridiculous when people are proud of something that they're too egotistic and arrogant, even when it's their own achievements. Regardless of how proud you are of something, it doesn't hurt to be humble.

Also, feeling proud of a country (or anything) doesn't mean AT ALL that you look down on, or discriminate in anyway against those from other countries (or anything). It's not supposed to divide and separate people. And if it does, you have other issues. (Keywords: "idiocy", "bigotry", etc.)

[aether]

Pride got in my way on more than 1 occasion, though the more recent one was I didn't want to go onto the benefit system after I had to leave work due to stress related reasons

[DOOM!]

Well, I kinda agree with Eris on that side of pride, but as for me, Papa told me to make him proud; he never showed me any kind appreciation for a start, so I proceeded to disappoint him instead. Aaaah, starting from smoking, to biking, to loosing employment, to drugs, to prostitution... I am proud to have made my dad ashamed of me, or at least, I get a sick satisfaction out of it.

[Ollie]

klkzxd so I had this long thing typed out but the forum farted and logged me out right before I hit Submit and erased it. So to sum it up - You are wrong, and here is why:

-Race and Ethnicity are not the same thing. You say you are White but you must have European roots - you can take pride in those countries the same way that people are proud of their Chinese or Spanish pride.
-The pride you are thinking of is very solid, despite you thinking it's flimsy and comparable to zip code pride (...ugh). Transgendered people, queer people (non-straight people), people of color, women, etc. have this pride because they are all oppressed groups, people that have been made to be ashamed of their identities. This type of pride isn't a trophy pride; it is a pride that is defiance in the face of oppression, saying, "No, I am not ashamed of who I am, and I don't care what the status quo says about whether or not I should."
-White people do not have this sort of pride because they historically the oppressors, not the oppressed. See: Native American people having their people slaughtered, families torn apart and lands stolen (also known as Manifest Destiny), Africans being enslaved, everything that vaguely Middle Eastern-looking people have to deal with in the false name of "safety" (in Western nations, anyway), a whole slew of other things your public education probably neglected to mention* and this whole essay. Among other things. Same thing for straight people, cisgendered people, men, Gentiles (non-Jews), and so on, but that's a complicated thing to get into so I won't.

and this part, by the way

Because it divides and separates us. It's basically "I'm glad I'm X ethnicity".. which is another way of saying "I'm glad I'm -not- anything but the ethnicity that I am"; which is a reflection on all other ethnicitys.

is super duper EXTRA wrong. If you honestly think me saying "I'm proud of my Serbian heritage" is the equivilant of saying "you should be ashamed you aren't like me", then you have absolutely no right to be telling "those people" to "get over themselves" when it seems to me that you're the one with the ego problem.

Hopefully you will understand what I say here, 'cause I'm not really interested in an argument, so... if you don't get it, oh well, too bad for you.

*If you ever wonder why the US doesn't have a White History Month, it's because ALL history taught in America is White history. Example: Columbus is still being taught to kids as the man who discovered the Americas, despite the fact that the land he "discovered" was actually inhabited by several millions of people. Native people don't think so highly of this guy for reasons I shouldn't have to explain, but they're not the ones in power here.

[Ericgamer1]

kk, @Ollie: since you've stated you have no interest in debating, I won't go there. But I do want to pick out two things that I have a problem with:

-Race and Ethnicity are not the same thing. You say you are White but you must have European roots - you can take pride in those countries the same way that people are proud of their Chinese or Spanish pride.

But you can't choose what those roots are. The same goes for, well, really anything that applies to those things that one has had no say in the matter.

-The pride you are thinking of is very solid, despite you thinking it's flimsy and comparable to zip code pride (...ugh). Transgendered people, queer people (non-straight people), people of color, women, etc. have this pride because they are all oppressed groups, people that have been made to be ashamed of their identities. This type of pride isn't a trophy pride; it is a pride that is defiance in the face of oppression, saying, "No, I am not ashamed of who I am, and I don't care what the status quo says about whether or not I should."

for the sake of discussion, I will point out the fact that I am bisexual, yet, have no need to see any reason to be "proud" of it nor ashamed of it as it was something I, again, didn't choose; it just was. So I still don't see the point.

[Sanosuke23]

kk, @Ollie: since you've stated you have no interest in debating, I won't go there. But I do want to pick out two things that I have a problem with:


But you can't choose what those roots are. The same goes for, well, really anything that applies to those things that one has had no say in the matter.



for the sake of discussion, I will point out the fact that I am bisexual, yet, have no need to see any reason to be "proud" of it nor ashamed of it as it was something I, again, didn't choose; it just was. So I still don't see the point.

The point is, if someone came along and told you you weren't allowed to be bisexual, you had to be attracted to women, the pride you have in yourself and the things that make you who you are SHOULD, for most people, be enough to tell them to defend who they are. It's not a matter of "Look at me, I accomplished liking both genders," it's a matter of saying "My sexuality/ethnicity/gender/etc. is nothing for me to be ashamed of, and I will be this whether or not you like it." Excessive pride, of course, is a whole other matter, but you're drastically oversimplifying the concept of pride and implying that in order for it to be labeled as such it needs to be of biblical proportions. It doesn't.

That being said, excessive pride in ANYTHING, including your own decisions or accomplishments, is always annoying and a negative quality in someone.

[Wio]

See: Native American people having their people slaughtered, families torn apart and lands stolen (also known as Manifest Destiny), Africans being enslaved, everything that vaguely Middle Eastern-looking people have to deal with in the false name of "safety" (in Western nations, anyway), a whole slew of other things your public education probably neglected to mention

Ahahahhahahaahhahahahahhhahhahahahaahahahahaha.
I guess every public school I've ever gone to was a full blown exception.

[Sanosuke23]

Ahahahhahahaahhahahahahhhahhahahahaahahahahaha.
I guess every public school I've ever gone to was a full blown exception.

I believe they neglected to mention the whole slew of other things Ollie neglected to mention because yeah, the public schools I went to mentioned the Native Americans being slaughtered and Africans being enslaved(though the part about the muslims was I think maybe a bit before my time).

[Ollie]

Ahahahhahahaahhahahahahhhahhahahahaahahahahaha.
I guess every public school I've ever gone to was a full blown exception.

That's actually really great. No sarcasm.

It's still a problem in a lot of schools...not just public ones, even. When I took American Ethnic History at my uni, our teacher told us about a Seattle private school that had chosen not to teach about slavery because there were no black students at the school. :S And too often a mention is all they get. I knew that the native people of the Americas were treated badly by incoming Europeans and slavery was horrible, but to the REAL extent of the damage done to these people? I had no clue just how awful it was until I took an intro-level college class.

Also: Jesus Christ, Sano, could you pick a bigger freaking signature image?

[Serated]

'Pride go-ith before a fall.'


Being black, white, Italian, or whatever isnt something to be proud of; because its a not a skill or something you've earned. Its a genetic accident. There's too much pride as it is anyway.

[Sanosuke23]

That's actually really great. No sarcasm.

It's still a problem in a lot of schools...not just public ones, even. When I took American Ethnic History at my uni, our teacher told us about a Seattle private school that had chosen not to teach about slavery because there were no black students at the school. :S And too often a mention is all they get. I knew that the native people of the Americas were treated badly by incoming Europeans and slavery was horrible, but to the REAL extent of the damage done to these people? I had no clue just how awful it was until I took an intro-level college class.

Also: Jesus Christ, Sano, could you pick a bigger freaking signature image?

You have no idea how tempted I am to throw up a gigantic YES.gif that just barely fits into the maximum requirements. ;P

Also holy crap, seriously? I wish I could blame Seattle alone as a shining beacon of retardation, but time has kind of made me realize I seem to be really out of touch with this sort of thing.

[3pleT]

Yeah, I've been using this argument against national pride for ages. You can't (or rather, shouldn't) be proud of something that has been randomly assigned to you, so the only people who can truly be proud of their country would be those who have chosen to live where they live (i.e. immigrants).

Or, possibly, politicians who made some big changes?