equality between sexes in the world of otaku

[Desulishor]

thought something today:

When a girl/female anime character has a weakness, that's moe, (ie, clumsy as hell, instant moe) but the more perfect a guy/male anime character is the more garr he is. See where this is going? A girl can freely show her weaknesses while guys have to strive towards perfection at all times. Equality, I think not. Of course, all of this is born from old western, well old world-wide tradition where the guy is supposed to take care/protect of her girl and later on provide food for the whole family. Thus, reliability is still one of the main attributes of a guy's attractiveness.

perhaps not a major problem on it's own. But it seems to me like the perfectness of anime male chars has driven the world of otaku to a situation where otaku girls no longer care about real men altogether and just live inside their 2-d fantasies. I've witnessed the phenomenon in cons and as a male otaku hoping to find a gf with similar interests, losing to a nonexistant perfect guy is annoying. Common occurences in cons:girls crossdressing as their favorite male characters, ie cloud of ff7. I cossed as hojo which gave me chance to socialize, only to find out just how 2dluv they were.

in any case, report your own thoughts and observations on the subject.

[DOOM!]

In the western culture, we call them Marry-Sue's and Village Idiots, but we invert the sexes to the roles in order to stop creating the basement-haunting ghosts that Anime cause, and give the male viewers a more inherent hatred for the "perfect female character" which later results into some well deserved, good ol' fashion beatings that keep society moving forward to this day.

[John Watson]

God, I love it when the male characters are clumsy, oblivious, loud, and stupid. It makes them so damn cute!

When a girl acts stupid and ditzy and moemoemoe it annoys me a little. So...I kinda like when the characters have to strive for perfection. It turns them into flawed and likable characters. I dunno..thats just me. o.o;

Ahem...is this relevant? ^^;

[Desulishor]

God, I love it when the male characters are clumsy, oblivious, loud, and stupid. It makes them so damn cute!

When a girl acts stupid and ditzy and moemoemoe it annoys me a little. So...I kinda like when the characters have to strive for perfection. It turns them into flawed and likable characters. I dunno..thats just me. o.o;

Ahem...is this relevant? ^^;

nonmoe girls who try their best get less attention than clumsy moe girls just being themselves. propably pisses em off, however that's just disequality between members of the same sex.

male characters being clumsy and whatnot... Isn't that how male protagonists of shounen romance comedy are? I always thought they were made that way just so that the boys watching the show can identify with the main character. Never thought any1 would actually find it cute. Guess that's a case of rare bakaluv. (shinji no baka!) Or then ur just being sarcastic, havin trouble telling which it is, since the mysteries of the female mindset continue to amaze me.

[Skylar1]

I've been advocating the elimination of gender bias for years.

It's because society has gotten stuck in that mind set of stereotypical roles that men are supposed to be strong, unemotional, and supportive; while women are supposed to be the fairer, more sensitive, caring, and weaker. This is idiotic.

People are not dolls. Gender really only plays a very small role in determining who we are. Most of why these damned stereotypes still exist, is because people keep conforming to them thinking that "that's how it's 'supposed' to be".

Each and every person is different and unique. A small size difference in your chromosome DNA should never decide how you're going to live you life, it just shouldn't. People should act and behave as they want to, not what society thinks is "right".

Tbh, I actually enjoy watching the female character as playing the dominate role, (protecting the man). Or seeing the male character who doesn't put burdens of finanical stability solely upon as his own responsibility. (seriously, women can work too, the don't need to "be taken care of") that probably pisses me of the most.

I made a thread a while back on the subject on gender roles here. I can only hope that one day, people will be able to actually live as people, and not just the gender that they were born as.

[Gjallarhorn]

I think you're forgetting the fact that in many, many anime, females are completely objectified when they're made moe, in such a sense that that's what is being used to sell the series to it's audience.

And GAR isn't about being "perfect", it's used to describe a character that is both overwhelmingly heroic and manly.

As for "perfectness" of males is modern anime, such a thing really is hard to come by. Now-a-days, male leads tend to be less heroic and more completely-normal-but-put-into-a-situation-in-which-they-must-overcome. Then the creator will add on a quirk or two to make him less one-dimensional. This creates a character that the male audience can easily connect with, which is what most audiences what now-a-days.

[John Watson]

nonmoe girls who try their best get less attention than clumsy moe girls just being themselves. propably pisses em off, however that's just disequality between members of the same sex.

male characters being clumsy and whatnot... Isn't that how male protagonists of shounen romance comedy are? I always thought they were made that way just so that the boys watching the show can identify with the main character. Never thought any1 would actually find it cute. Guess that's a case of rare bakaluv. (shinji no baka!) Or then ur just being sarcastic, havin trouble telling which it is, since the mysteries of the female mindset continue to amaze me.

I am most certainly not being sarcastic! =O I love them, I really do think its cute! x3
Picture-perfect bishounens get boring after a while, I like relatable and more flawed characters. ♥

[DOOM!]

I've been advocating the elimination of gender bias for years.

It's because society has gotten stuck in that mind set of stereotypical roles that men are supposed to be strong, unemotional, and supportive; while women are supposed to be the fairer, more sensitive, caring, and weaker. This is idiotic.

People are not dolls. Gender really only plays a very small role in determining who we are. Most of why these damned stereotypes still exist, is because people keep conforming to them thinking that "that's how it's 'supposed' to be".

Each and every person is different and unique. A small size difference in your chromosome DNA should never decide how you're going to live you life, it just shouldn't. People should act and behave as they want to, not what society thinks is "right".

Tbh, I actually enjoy watching the female character as playing the dominate role, (protecting the man). Or seeing the male character who doesn't put burdens of finanical stability solely upon as his own responsibility. (seriously, women can work too, the don't need to "be taken care of") that probably pisses me of the most.

I made a thread a while back on the subject on gender roles here. I can only hope that one day, people will be able to actually live as people, and not just the gender that they were born as.

I think you don't know enough about the two gender's different potentials and downfalls to be screaming, years in line, one can absolutely, indisputably, under any circumstances, 9001%, really really really reeeeeaaaaaally go through the other one's physical role without there being any side effects. You might want to settle for psychologically even, but that too has to have it's borders.
Also, chivalry's obsolete; don't try to modernize it.

[Token Black Guy]

thought something today:

When a girl/female anime character has a weakness, that's moe, (ie, clumsy as hell, instant moe) but the more perfect a guy/male anime character is the more garr he is. See where this is going? A girl can freely show her weaknesses while guys have to strive towards perfection at all times. Equality, I think not. Of course, all of this is born from old western, well old world-wide tradition where the guy is supposed to take care/protect of her girl and later on provide food for the whole family. Thus, reliability is still one of the main attributes of a guy's attractiveness.

perhaps not a major problem on it's own. But it seems to me like the perfectness of anime male chars has driven the world of otaku to a situation where otaku girls no longer care about real men altogether and just live inside their 2-d fantasies. I've witnessed the phenomenon in cons and as a male otaku hoping to find a gf with similar interests, losing to a nonexistant perfect guy is annoying. Common occurences in cons:girls crossdressing as their favorite male characters, ie cloud of ff7. I cossed as hojo which gave me chance to socialize, only to find out just how 2dluv they were.

in any case, report your own thoughts and observations on the subject.

This makes me think about when i had a crush on a girl in high school. She was cute, but she like anime and manga which was what attracted me to her. I tried to ask her out, but she didn't want to go out with me because i was "black" and she only likes "guys who aren't black and have no trace of black in them" and "devilish" guys like Cloud from Final Fantasy and Sasuke from Naruto. I didn't speak to her after that, even though she did make attempts to be friendly with me. But then afterwards i noticed she was a bit crazy. (I made a post about this in my blog. The link is in my sig.) I hope i do find someone with similar interests. Hopefully something like this will end, but i'm not sure it will.

[wolfgirl90]

I believe that its important to remember that we are dealing with the Japanese culture here. Japanese has been (and for the most part still is) a patriarchal society. The men are the breadmakers and the women are the caretakers. Despite changes in attitude, this behavior still persists and most find it hard to break out of. Laws have been made to create gender equality in the workplace, however, women still make up only about 10% of the professional positions in Japan versus about 46% in the US. Not only are men and women expected to dress and act a certain way, but also speak a certain way. While women are being more independent in Japan, I still surprise some Japanese men by use of the pronoun "boku".

However, while some anime have these gender roles carry over into the show, I don't think that the gar characters are the ones to blame for girls having certain ideals about their men. I think that some of these girls are just...well...idiots. For example, what's worse: the fact that in Twilight, Jacob is basically serving as eye candy or the fact that girls are falling for him? Some girls are just immature and have not had a chance to live within the realms of normal life and are unable to form healthy relationships with other people. The love (and I mean LOVE) of a cartoon character only reflects this (the writing of really gross fanfiction reflects it even more so).

Archaic gender roles have nothing to do with it. Some girls are just stupid.

[Diocletian]

Moe goes all the way back to WWII. When men left their homes to fight in the war, the few that returned found that their wives didn't need them as much as they believed they did. Women gained a larger role in the household and began to tell their husbands what to do. These said men instilled their philosophy on women into their children. After a while, Japanese men began to seek subservient women in brothels, maid cafes and people's thoughts eventually spilt into anime with the introduction of ToHeart and several other shows along the same vein. In shows like these, men were treated as the pinnacle of the womans existence and he had several women fawn over him, despite his lack of any real redeeming characteristics. This is the essence of moe and it is a cultural thing rather than a sexist thing.

[Skylar1]

I think you don't know enough about the two gender's different potentials and downfalls to be screaming, years in line, one can absolutely, indisputably, under any circumstances, 9001%, really really really reeeeeaaaaaally go through the other one's physical role without there being any side effects. You might want to settle for psychologically even, but that too has to have it's borders.

eh, I think you're missing my point. I blame myself for not being specific enough.

I was referring solely to psychology.

While I do think there is a "natural pre-disposition" to one's own gender, I feel that this is very minute in comparison to the bombardment of bias-exposure that is presented to us in society from a very young age. .. Maybe a hypothetical example would do best to explain what I mean:


Little Sally of 8 years of age wakes up one morning in her princess bed in her room full of stuffed teddy bears, rainbows, and unicorns. She puts on her dress or other girly clothing then proceeds to turn on the tv to watch some morning cartoons. Not 5 minutes into her show, a commercial comes on which is filled with sparkles, and "girl-power", and flowers, and gotta be popular, all the while panning out as if it was made by a sugar induced kid with ADHD. . . .

That's just the start of the day within maybe the first 20 minutes. When we are first born, we have no concept of "gender". It all comes from the propaganda that's SHOVED down our throats by Parents, teacher, and the rest of society.

The sad part in all of this is that all those parents and teacher don't realize that they're basically indoctrinating children to "You were born A and not B, A is supposed to do 1, 2, and 3; B is supposed to do 4, 5, 6. If you are A, and you are doing 4, 5, and 6, and not 1,2, and 3, something is wrong with you".

Also, chivalry's obsolete; don't try to modernize it.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this.

[Wio]

Little Sally of 8 years of age wakes up one morning in her princess bed in her room full of stuffed teddy bears, rainbows, and unicorns. She puts on her dress or other girly clothing then proceeds to turn on the tv to watch some morning cartoons. Not 5 minutes into her show, a commercial comes on which is filled with sparkles, and "girl-power", and flowers, and gotta be popular, all the while panning out as if it was made by a sugar induced kid with ADHD. . . .

That's just the start of the day within maybe the first 20 minutes. When we are first born, we have no concept of "gender". It all comes from the propaganda that's SHOVED down our throats by Parents, teacher, and the rest of society.

But these things appeal to typical young girls, so you're arguing "It's the chicken" in a chicken-or-egg dilemma.

[Skylar1]

But these things appeal to typical young girls, so you're arguing "It's the chicken" in a chicken-or-egg dilemma.

But then, one has to ask them self, Do those things appeal to them because that is the way society has created that standard model for women?

[Desulishor]

But then, one has to ask them self, Do those things appeal to them because that is the way society has created that standard model for women?

as for my personal opinion, I agree that ppl are inviduals and society's ideals about what is a woman and what is a man (A MISRIBLE LITTLE PILE OF SECRETES!!!) shouldn't have any effect on that.

However, I've read some books on genetics where they go over this whole "nature against nurture"-problem in scientific detail. To make a long story short, both have an effect and there is no black and white, just shades of grey. However, it is impossible to grow a person into a certain model while completely forgetting about his/her sex. The most extreme cases are stories of men who were raised as women and vice versa. One such man was forced to play with girls toys, dress into a skirt and so for his whole childhood. (even had his thing tempered with) but when he grew up and began living by himself, he tossed everything his childhood had taught him and started his life as a man. Story goes that he got married with a very understanding woman later on. On the side of nurture there are of course statistics on which countries have most inteligent ppl. Homo sapiens is a genetically very homogenic species meaning there's only about 1% difference in the dna of each person. such difference cannot explain the wide varieties of inteligence and other features of mind we see. One can also see that average IQ of each new generation has been on the raise ever since they started measuring IQ's in large numbers of ppl. evolution cannot explain fast changes, so it must be nurture.

In other words, perhaps a girl who was genetically born moe, can become moe even if it wasn't for all the ideals that society pushes on her, but it depends on the individual.

[Wio]

But then, one has to ask them self, Do those things appeal to them because that is the way society has created that standard model for women?

This is the epitome of a chicken-or-egg argument (cf. "If the chicken hadn't come first, who laid the egg?" and "If the egg didn't come first, then how was the chicken born?").
We do know that there are biological (i.e. hormonal) differences at least.

While women are being more independent in Japan, I still surprise some Japanese men by use of the pronoun "boku".

When I told a Japanese person about this, they asked if you were an otaku, because their immediate impression was that you were trying to mimic some anime archetype. I figure gender-specific first person pronouns don't seem any more indicative of societal gender gaps than are third person counterparts. For example, you'd raise some eyebrows for referring to your mother using "he" and "him" in English. Does that mean western women are hand-cuffed to a stove?

[DOOM!]

eh, I think you're missing my point. I blame myself for not being specific enough.

I was referring solely to psychology.

While I do think there is a "natural pre-disposition" to one's own gender, I feel that this is very minute in comparison to the bombardment of bias-exposure that is presented to us in society from a very young age. .. Maybe a hypothetical example would do best to explain what I mean:


Little Sally of 8 years of age wakes up one morning in her princess bed in her room full of stuffed teddy bears, rainbows, and unicorns. She puts on her dress or other girly clothing then proceeds to turn on the tv to watch some morning cartoons. Not 5 minutes into her show, a commercial comes on which is filled with sparkles, and "girl-power", and flowers, and gotta be popular, all the while panning out as if it was made by a sugar induced kid with ADHD. . . .

That's just the start of the day within maybe the first 20 minutes. When we are first born, we have no concept of "gender". It all comes from the propaganda that's SHOVED down our throats by Parents, teacher, and the rest of society.

The sad part in all of this is that all those parents and teacher don't realize that they're basically indoctrinating children to "You were born A and not B, A is supposed to do 1, 2, and 3; B is supposed to do 4, 5, 6. If you are A, and you are doing 4, 5, and 6, and not 1,2, and 3, something is wrong with you".

Oh that's not sexism, that's what happens when you put a price on every detail and need of human life; those who specialize in selling toys will make up cartoons and blatantly display them in the kids faces to allure them into stating I WANT AN EASTER EGG I WANT AN EASTER EGG I WANT AN EASTER EGG I WANT AN EASTER EGG I WANT AN EASTER EGG I WANT AN EASTER EGG until you buy them one. Hell, if they could advertise "Black people, come get your 9mm right now and win a free hoodie", they would, if they probably aren't already.

[Furore]

Maybe these problems are a result of appearing the part of an Otaku?
I mean seriously, even I get lucky time to time and I have more vices than some gambling dens (and I look like crap half the time on top of that ).
If I meet a girl who seems to be into anime and nothing else, there's a good chance I'll find her boring and not worth pursuing.
I imagine there are many girls who feel the same way about guys too heavily into it.

Sometimes ditching the Shinsengumi cosplay kimono for a pair of jeans and a leather jacket'll do wonders.

[Desulishor]

Maybe these problems are a result of appearing the part of an Otaku?
I mean seriously, even I get lucky time to time and I have more vices than some gambling dens (and I look like crap half the time on top of that ).
If I meet a girl who seems to be into anime and nothing else, there's a good chance I'll find her boring and not worth pursuing.
I imagine there are many girls who feel the same way about guys too heavily into it.

Sometimes ditching the Shinsengumi cosplay kimono for a pair of jeans and a leather jacket'll do wonders.

gettin lucky you say... your opinion is yours to have but I wouldn't accept a normal girl as my gf even if one asked me out. Chances are she'd dumb me when she'd find out about my true colors, not to mention, a gf who doesn't understand you as you are is a useless gf imo. Would rather wait for that 1 konata-type girl for the rest of my life.

[Furore]

gettin lucky you say... your opinion is yours to have but I wouldn't accept a normal girl as my gf even if one asked me out. Chances are she'd dumb me when she'd find out about my true colors, not to mention, a gf who doesn't understand you as you are is a useless gf imo. Would rather wait for that 1 konata-type girl for the rest of my life.

The trouble is 'Konata-type girls' are likely fictional. You'd have more success if you allowed other interests to show through and take it from me, sometimes a 'normal girl' who has anime as one of several interests can be even more amazing. I'm not even sure Otakus are popular with the ladies in their native Japan...

The closest thing to a girl like an anime character/archetype would probably just be an escort getting paid to act as such. It isn't real!!!

[Desulishor]

I may be a stinkin dreamer yeah, but my logic for konata-type girls is the same wide logic which classifies kagami as a tsundere even though there's no romantic interest in her life. In other words, I'll take any girl who likes anime and does not look like a hippo. It's just that konata is the ideal, but the whole prefence discussion is a bit off topic, i guess.

[Skylar1]

I may be a stinkin dreamer yeah, but my logic for konata-type girls is the same wide logic which classifies kagami as a tsundere even though there's no romantic interest in her life. In other words, I'll take any girl who likes anime and does not look like a hippo. It's just that konata is the ideal, but the whole prefence discussion is a bit off topic, i guess.

Ah, but see the problem here is that Personality matches are a double edged sword.

Yes, you may very well find your "konata-type girl" indeed.. but she will be just as nerdy, reclusive, and antisocial as you would expect.

Of course.. if you're aware of that fact and completely fine with that, then by all means go for it.

[Diocletian]

You aren't going to find a Konata girl ever. End of discussion.

[John Watson]

You aren't going to find a Konata girl ever. End of discussion.

Wow..thats a kick to the gonads.

[wolfgirl90]

When I told a Japanese person about this, they asked if you were an otaku, because their immediate impression was that you were trying to mimic some anime archetype. I figure gender-specific first person pronouns don't seem any more indicative of societal gender gaps than are third person counterparts. For example, you'd raise some eyebrows for referring to your mother using "he" and "him" in English. Does that mean western women are hand-cuffed to a stove?

I am not trying to mimic anything, let alone something from an anime (I am 20 years old, for crying out loud). My Japanese speech tends to lean on the masculine side because my English does the same thing; plus I hung out with a bunch of Japanese guys so I picked up my speech patterns from them.

Also, you seemed to be missing my point. The Japanese language has certain speech patterns that are characteristic to a particular gender; the Japanese language is quite unusual because of this. There are differences between the speech of males and the speech of females in Japanese. Male speech is more abrupt and harsh while female speech is made to be softer and more polite (females will use the polite forms of words and addresses more often than males). Males and females are effectively expected to speak a certain way. And like I said, despite changes in attitude about equality, most Japanese people still use the vocabulary and speech patterns characteristic of their gender.

Also, my use of the word "boku" to refer to myself is much different than using "he/him" to refer to my mother. While my use of "boku" makes me sound masculine, its still grammatically correct. Using "he/him" to refer to my mother or any female is not correct at all (I would just sound stupid).