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Thread: Anime or not?

  1. #76
    Senior Member 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Your Father View Post
    Lines like these tend to ruin your entire argument. It's kind of like saying "hey, I'm a busy guy it's okay for me to have uninformed opinions!" In your case what argument you had was ruined when you made a thread like this run for four pages.
    Because I got really sick of the argument and I really don't want to go ask ANN about something so stupid.... I'm not saying it's "okay", I'm saying that I can't deal with this at the moment. Especially since this is the weekend of my final assignments.

    Oh lol so it's MY fault the thread ran for four pages? No, don't think so. Everyone is talking about different things on this thread!
    Last edited by 小美ドクロchan; 03-27-2010 at 06:30 PM.


  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    @Wolfgirl
    So essentially the term "Anime" and all that applies to is subjective?
    depending how you use the term it can be both as neither is right at all?
    Its not about "how" but "who".

    Strictly speaking, the Western term for the word "anime" refers to "Japanese cartoons". That's it (style is not part of the equation). In Japan, they obviously don't use the word "anime" to refer to their OWN shows, as 60% of ALL animation comes from Japan, so the word "anime" means "animation", regardless of origin. And like I said before, if you want to be technical about Japanese terms, you should refer to ALL comics, regardless of origin, as "manga" (which I honestly doubt that you do, despite your argument).

    The word only becomes subjective when people try to add style to the definition. Take Avatar, for example. The ONLY reason why we are trying to figure out if it is an anime or not is because of the style of the cartoon itself. Like I said before, people have known that the Japanese use the word "anime" to refer to all animation, in yet, there is no doubt in the Western world that Family Guy is not an anime.

    Anime has no one set style; we don't define anime based on simple definitions of style. If that were the case, how in the world are Super Milk Chan, Shin Chan and Fullmetal Alchemist ALL considered anime if style was part of the definition?

    The "anime-style" maybe one of the most common chracteristics of anime, but that doesn't mean that EVERY anime has that style NOR does it mean that EVERY show that uses that style is an anime.
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  3. #78
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    If you mean 'anime' as in Bleach or Naruto(hate), then no, I don't consider it an anime at all.
    Whoever bad repped my post with the note 'Thumbs down to the Naruto hater!' is a complete moron. I was giving examples of shows that are ,without a doubt, anime style. Smooth.

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  4. #79
    Senior Member MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy's Avatar
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    there is no doubt in the Western world that Family Guy is not an anime.
    because it doesn't fit any required criteria for any real definition of anime (With the exception perhaps of being animated but that is a minor one)
    Anime has no one set style; we don't define anime based on simple definitions of style. If that were the case, how in the world are Super Milk Chan, Shin Chan and Fullmetal Alchemist ALL considered anime if style was part of the definition?
    Why can't styles overlap?
    Why can't anime and Cartoons share traits?
    like a venn diagram
    One circle is Anime
    One Circle is Cartoon
    In the overlap are shows like Avatar and Shin Chan

    In this case you chose extremes of anime
    well why can't they be both?
    The "anime-style" maybe one of the most common chracteristics of anime, but that doesn't mean that EVERY anime has that style NOR does it mean that EVERY show that uses that style is an anime.
    I'm not a huge fan of calling things "Anime style"
    For me if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is probably a duck (Just replace duck with Anime)

  5. #80
    Senior Member 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan has a reputation beyond repute 小美ドクロchan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    For me if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is probably a duck (Just replace duck with Anime)
    That's kind of a foolish way of thinking. What if it's a pigeon wearing a duck costume and imitating a duck?This is Avatar's case. It's a cartoon wearing an animeish costume and imitating an anime.


    But it can't quack like an anime because its original language is still English.


  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    Why can't styles overlap?
    Why can't anime and Cartoons share traits?
    like a venn diagram
    One circle is Anime
    One Circle is Cartoon
    In the overlap are shows like Avatar and Shin Chan

    In this case you chose extremes of anime
    well why can't they be both?
    I chose the extremes to illustrate a point. I could have used say Code Geass and Ghost and the Shell, but that wouldn't have been as effective, so I will ask again: What do Super Milk Chan and Fullmetal Alchemist have in common that make them BOTH anime (because they BOTH are)?

    You could make a Venn Diagram, but this once again brings up the question of what styles make an anime an anime, and in order for that to make sense, ALL anime need to share the same characteristics (or have many stylistic characteristics in common), which is obviously not the case for ALL anime.

    In order to make a Venn Diagram, there need to be common stylistic characteristics that ALL anime share in order to make them "anime" and there need to be common stylistic characteristics that ALL American cartoons share to make them "cartoons" in order to make a central circle where the two overlap.

    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    I'm not a huge fan of calling things "Anime style"
    For me if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is probably a duck (Just replace duck with Anime)
    Again, this begs the question of what makes a duck a duck. As 小美ドクロchan said, it could easily be some other animal looking and quacking LIKE a duck, but that doesn't make it a duck. Of course, not all ducks quack (only the females do) and ducks make other sounds besides "quack".

    I don't like using the phrase "Anime style" either, but again, the ONLY reason why ANYONE is arguing about Avater being an anime is because it LOOKS like anime. That is the only reason why we are contesting the definition. Avater is certainly "anime influenced", but I wouldn't call it an anime because, quite simply, its not a Japanese cartoon (and that is the Western definition for anime: a JAPANESE cartoon).

    Is The Boondocks an anime? Is Ben 10 an anime? Is Teen Titans an anime? How about Code Lyoko or Totally Spies (both are French cartoons)? Or Megas XLR? Or Kappa Micky? How about Thundercats, Samurai Jack, Storm Hawks, W.I.T.C.H, Hi Hi Puffy AmiYumi, Xiaolin Showdown, Oban Star Racers and Yin Yang Yo? Are ALL of these shows "anime" simply because they "look" like an "anime" (whatever that means to you) or is it simply because the Japanese would have called them "anime"?

    We all know what the Japanese use the word "anime" for, however, in the Western word, we do not use it the same way (for obvious reasons) and this happens all the time with loan words. For example, take the Japanese word "manshon (マンション)". It comes from the English word "mansion". Does "manshon" MEAN "mansion" in Japanese? No it does not. How about the word "hanbāgu (ハンバーグ)? It comes from the English word "hamburger" (which derived from "hamburg"). Does it MEAN "hamburger"? No, it means "Hamburg", a type of Salisbury steak dish. Or the word "shīru (シール)" from the English word "seal" (like an official seal); does actually mean "seal" in Japanese? No, it means "sticker".

    So why is the word "anime" any different? Westerners changed the definition of the word for our own usage; why is this different from what the Japanese have been doing with loan words?
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    What do Super Milk Chan and Fullmetal Alchemist have in common that make them BOTH anime (because they BOTH are)?
    I cannot honestly say
    however this is due to me only having the vagueist idea of what shin chan actually is

    I would say one thing is that that they are indeed both japanese
    However I would argue that this is not a necessary requirement for them to be classified as animes but is is a possible trait of animes

    You could make a Venn Diagram, but this once again brings up the question of what styles make an anime an anime, and in order for that to make sense, ALL anime need to share the same characteristics
    All anime need to share some traits in common yes
    but do they all need to share the same trait?
    You could argue that all anime need trait A but is this necessary?
    if it has trait B,C and D could it not also be as such?

    What I am saying is that there can be overlap with shared traits (Some being inevitable between cartoons and anime) but many are not necessary
    In order to make a Venn Diagram, there need to be common stylistic characteristics that ALL anime share in order to make them "anime" and there need to be common stylistic characteristics that ALL American cartoons share to make them "cartoons" in order to make a central circle where the two overlap.
    And why can't we do that?
    Again, this begs the question of what makes a duck a duck. As 小美ドクロchan said, it could easily be some other animal looking and quacking LIKE a duck, but that doesn't make it a duck. Of course, not all ducks quack (only the females do) and ducks make other sounds besides "quack".
    This again illustrates the idea of what are necessary characteristics to be an anime
    and what are good but not necessary
    Is it necessary that an Anime MUST come from Japan?
    Is The Boondocks an anime? or Totally Spies? Or Megas XLR?
    Don't know these shows
    Is Ben 10 an anime? Is Teen Titans an anime?
    probably a stretch for these ones
    How about Code Lyoko
    Is CGI still the same as Cartoon and anime?
    Is Appleseed an Anime? (Not the original but the CGI version?)
    Are ALL of these shows "anime" simply because they "look" like an "anime"
    it depends how far you stretch the limits
    many probably share more traits in common with what we would normally define as a cartoon and so stray too far from Anime
    however, in the Western word, we do not use it the same way
    That depends on the person
    Some do and some don't
    So why is the word "anime" any different? Westerners changed the definition of the word for our own usage; why is this different from what the Japanese have been doing with loan words?
    It all comes down to whether or not you accept that anime must necessarily and exclusively come from Japan.
    Does this mean Japanese can't make cartoons? or Comics?
    Do they simply by the fact of their origin make them exclusively one or the other?

    If I was to show you a picture could you tell me if it is a cartoon or an anime character?
    You do not know the origin of this picture nor the artist
    it could be drawn by a Japanese person or an american or a canadian or an irishman
    So how do you define a pic in absence of this trait?
    What criteria would you use to form a judgement about it?

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    Is it necessary that an Anime MUST come from Japan?
    YES.

    That depends on the person
    Some do and some don't
    Dude, you are the only one I've seen....out of literally thousands of people who actually questions whether or not anime must come from Japan.*shakes head*
    Last edited by 小美ドクロchan; 03-29-2010 at 07:21 PM.


  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    All anime need to share some traits in common yes
    but do they all need to share the same trait?
    You could argue that all anime need trait A but is this necessary?
    if it has trait B,C and D could it not also be as such?
    There needs to be a trait in common in order for ALL anime to be "anime". ALL Japanese cartoons are anime, this much is certain. However, if style is part of the definition of anime, there must be something in common among ALL anime to make them anime. How else would you make the distinction?

    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    What I am saying is that there can be overlap with shared traits (Some being inevitable between cartoons and anime) but many are not necessary
    And why can't we do that?
    Again, in order to do that, we need to determine which characteristics are found in ALL anime (and only anime) and which characteristics are found in ALL Western cartoons (and only Western cartoons) in order to make an area where they could possibly overlap (characteristics that could be found in both). If you can't make that distinction, then there is no point.

    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    This again illustrates the idea of what are necessary characteristics to be an anime
    and what are good but not necessary
    Is it necessary that an Anime MUST come from Japan?
    Yes, because otherwise we need to find another way to define the word "anime". The Western definition of anime simply categorizes all Japanese cartoons as "anime", regardless of style. If we decide to classify Avatar as an anime, we need to decide WHY it is an anime. What, stylistically, makes Avatar an anime? What's in Avatar that ALL anime share in order for it to be considered an anime? And why, if Avater doesn't have something that ALL anime share in order for it to be called an anime, should we all it an "anime" to begin with and not a "cartoon" (I don't like using the word this way, but...)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    What criteria would you use to form a judgement about it?
    Doesn't this statement more or less prove my point? Again, if I showed you a picture of Super Milk-Chan characters, would you know that they were anime characters?http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...-You-want-.jpg

    I COULD make a judgement that it was either a regular Western cartoon character, an anime-influenced character, or an anime character. Of course, my judgment could be wrong in the end. I could similarly use certain common criteria to figure out someones race, but I could end up right or wrong.

    I'm not saying that anime doesn't have SOME common characteristics, because it does. However, these characteristics are not present in ALL anime nor does their mere presence make a cartoon an anime.
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  10. #85
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    /sigh

    If you call it a cartoon, you'll offend people who call it an anime. If you call it an anime, you'll offend otaku's. It's complicated.

    Imo, it's a cartoon.
    Not everything is black and white like that.

  11. #86
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    Are you guys saying that anime has NO consistent themes? Or just that not all anime follows those consistent themes?

    If your saying there's none...huh?? Than why do you watch anime specifically? Culture worship?

    I'm on Mangafanguy's side when he says there are consistent themes and techniques in anime. The ones that don't have them are the exception that proves the rule. There are examples of exceptions art in all mediums, espicially literature.

    I remain on the side of the fence that says anime currently refers to animation made in Japan. I maintain however that there are anime inspired films from other cultures (and if there were no common anime themes this would not be possible), and also still back the notion that someday anime could refer to a style rather than a regional product.

    I know everyone was dying to see the direction this debate was swaying me in particular, so now your up to date. XD jk

    I also have to ask...Is anyone here actually opposed to anime influenced work from other cultures? I'd hope not. The exchange of ideas is an important part of art. Without Oedipus Rex there never would have been a Shakespeare play. On the Japan to America side...First off Disney is directly responsible for the onslaught of anime we see today, and in other Japanese media Kurosawa, who directed 7 Samurai and Throne of Blood, was greatly inspired by American Western movies .
    Last edited by cherrypopwizkid; 03-30-2010 at 03:22 AM.
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  12. #87
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    Yeah, it's an anime inspired cartoon. Also, it's probably the best cartoon to come out in a long time (the Simpsons still trumps it though ). I do hope more American animations follow in its footsteps though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    ALL Japanese cartoons are anime, this much is certain.
    Actually by your definition Anime=/=Cartoon
    So Japanese cartoon is simply incoherent
    (I'm not trying to be a douche here just that your reference to Japanese "Cartoons" seems to show that the two can easily be similar)

    But I challange here that Cartoon does seem to be applicable to Japanese Shows
    If people saw that shin chan one they would define it as a cartoon
    If people saw FMA they would say Anime

    They do have real and noticeable differences that do not have a relation to their origins
    Perhaps the definition has simply been one of convenience
    Because before Avatar there were few shows that challenged the idea of what defines an anime.
    And again I ask whether the CGI appleseed is an anime?
    Or is it not? (Cos it seems to defy the common perceptions of what is an "Anime" just as the Avatar movie could be said to challenge just what a "Cartoon" actually is)
    However, if style is part of the definition of anime, there must be something in common among ALL anime to make them anime. How else would you make the distinction?
    Well there would be many technical definitions (Like proportions etc were some brought up) and all that
    Again, in order to do that, we need to determine which characteristics are found in ALL anime (and only anime) and which characteristics are found in ALL Western cartoons (and only Western cartoons) in order to make an area where they could possibly overlap (characteristics that could be found in both). If you can't make that distinction, then there is no point.
    The distinctions could be relatively easy in terms of looks
    Storytelling would be harder to define and more ambiguous

    But both Anime and Cartoon could simply fall under the blanket of Animation (And be subgenres of such like how Mecha and Sci-Fi are both similar and yet unique genres with overlapping traits)
    Yes, because otherwise we need to find another way to define the word "anime". The Western definition of anime simply categorizes all Japanese cartoons as "anime", regardless of style.
    Then perhaps these definitions are not applicable anymore
    it has never really been challenged in this way even by anime-ish cartoons of the past
    People commonly hold to the idea of anime being only from Japan because that is merely the norm
    It seems to be more of an unwritten rule rather then any conscious consensus of definition
    Doesn't this statement more or less prove my point? Again, if I showed you a picture of Super Milk-Chan characters, would you know that they were anime characters?http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...-You-want-.jpg

    I COULD make a judgement that it was either a regular Western cartoon character, an anime-influenced character, or an anime character. Of course, my judgment could be wrong in the end.
    So why can't it be a cartoon?
    I could similarly use certain common criteria to figure out someones race, but I could end up right or wrong.
    True but then there is extreme variance even among local populations of Humans
    Unlike Animes where the styles tend not to change much within the genres
    I'm not saying that anime doesn't have SOME common characteristics, because it does. However, these characteristics are not present in ALL anime nor does their mere presence make a cartoon an anime.
    true they are very similar in some regards whilst still being two very different (And awesome) forms of animated shows

    BTW I must say this is a fun debate
    most debates I've seen on this quickly disolve into anarchy of anime rage lol

  14. #89
    Senior Member cherrypopwizkid has a reputation beyond repute cherrypopwizkid has a reputation beyond repute cherrypopwizkid has a reputation beyond repute cherrypopwizkid has a reputation beyond repute cherrypopwizkid has a reputation beyond repute cherrypopwizkid has a reputation beyond repute cherrypopwizkid has a reputation beyond repute cherrypopwizkid has a reputation beyond repute cherrypopwizkid has a reputation beyond repute cherrypopwizkid has a reputation beyond repute cherrypopwizkid has a reputation beyond repute cherrypopwizkid's Avatar
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    Thats a very good way of putting it. Avatar challanged what it means to be Anime. It is a controversial show in that it made the claim 'American's can do it too'. This is bold because of the (IMO unfortunate) attitude Otaku seem to take towards Anime and specifically, towards Japan.

    On one hand, Avatar paid homage to an artistic style whose origins are very much Japanese. On the other hand, it aggressively asserts itself as being a product of America in an arena that many beleive to be claimed solely by Japan. Others have followed. Others will follow. The exchange of ideas has already begun. It will be contested, it will suprise and delight some, infuriate others. But those who are infuriated by it will not be able to stop it. Once an exchange like that starts, it is never halted in its tracks. it spreads, evolves, and eventually becomes something completely different.

    After all, as I stated in my last post this is how Anime began. Disney cartoons were purely American. Japan adopted what we had done, began to craft it, wittle it, make it something entirely there own. And now we have all but forgotten that the sparks may very well have begun here, or at least that here was the ember that turned a spark into a flame.

    Now the same thing has begun in reverse.
    Life has no subtitles. Support your English voice actors.

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    So a circle complete scenario. It should spread, not only is Avatar really good, it's really good for several seasons. Very few anime can claim that. While some of the longer ones can be good through out they tend to dip below the quality level the anime started at, even if it's just by a small margin. If anything, Avatar got better as it progressed. Something rarer still in anime.

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    Wow this became a heated flame war, personally i dont consider it an anime considering what i think fits under the defintion of Anime is cartoons from Japan. Which I also believe is the only defintion, I dont ever see 5 years in america calling The Misadventure of Flap Jack anime, there for i simply dont find american cartoons falling under the defintion of anime. The only people i see using that terms is otaku's and japanese people. So do i consider Avatar to be anime, NO. But will i tell anyone else that them thinking it one wrong, NO. Everyone is intitled to there own opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GameGeeks View Post
    If anything, Avatar got better as it progressed. Something rarer still in anime.
    Actually, I think Season 3's first half had somewhat off a dip in quality, a bit too much filler in comparison to Season 2 which tried to make everything story-relevant. Things definitely picked up strongly in the second half, but the first half could have used a little re-writing.

    Also, I wouldn't say it's rare in anime, quite the contrary. While there are a few anime that hit you full blast with the first few episodes, most anime don't truly hit their stride until a good deal into their series. Even long-running series often work that way, most people agree One Piece doesn't reach the hooking point until around the 30's episodes (and that's one that's 400+ episodes long and is still incredible).
    My name is Kakashi Hatake. What I like....I don't feel like telling you that. My dreams for the future...hmm, never really thought about that. As for my hobbies...well, I have many hobbies.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by thcuteness View Post
    Wow this became a heated flame war, personally i dont consider it an anime considering what i think fits under the defintion of Anime is cartoons from Japan. Which I also believe is the only defintion, I dont ever see 5 years in america calling The Misadventure of Flap Jack anime, there for i simply dont find american cartoons falling under the defintion of anime. The only people i see using that terms is otaku's and japanese people. So do i consider Avatar to be anime, NO. But will i tell anyone else that them thinking it one wrong, NO. Everyone is intitled to there own opinion.
    Its not a flame war if everyone's having fun and the messages are thought provoking. The targets of the most aggression have been Chan and Mangafanguy. Chan loves to hear herself talk, and Mangafanguy loves to provoke her into it. XD JK Its all cool.

    In five years, you won't know what The Misadventures of flap Jack are. In five years, more shows made in America with anime themes mottiffs and styles will have been produced, likely with a mix of successes and disappointments.

    Let me explain where the possibility of this change in jargon from a regional to a style description lies. The 13 year olds, maybe even the 12 and 11 year olds who have lied about there age to be here, that post on this forum, represent the end of a generation of otaku who grew up in a world where themes common only to anime come almost exclusively from Japan. Newer generations will lack the, dare I say racism, of assuming only the Japanese are capable of making quality animation. Certainly the ethnocentric ideology will attempt to pass itself on. It will fail so long as other countries continue to do quality work with these new, originally Japanese, ideas. That is the point where the jargon has a POTENTIAL for change. I can't estimate when the prime time for this event is, but five years wasn't my thought line. I'd say at least a decade. In a decade, you'll be far to old for anyone to care what you call it, because part of this process is that while animation may now target adults, the addiction still starts when we are children.
    Life has no subtitles. Support your English voice actors.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by cherrypopwizkid View Post
    Chan loves to hear herself talk
    No, I don't. T_T Where did you get that? You don't see me typing giant paragraphs, now do you?


  20. #95
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    lol, I only tease the people I respect. XD But perhaps it should have been the other way around.
    Life has no subtitles. Support your English voice actors.

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    Can it just be a matter of opinion rather than a huge war over one definition of an animated feature?
    On this day of days, most epic and prideful, you were born 15 whole American years ago!
    Through the odds and by doing the impossible, you beat out hundreds of thousands of siblings in the great sperm race for the coveted egg.
    Probably via hax.
    Regardless! You won!
    So remember, whenever someone picks on you or calls you weak or small.
    Just remind them that you beat out a few hundred thousand other wimps.

    And the grand prize was not dying!

  22. #97
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    Actually by your definition Anime=/=Cartoon
    So Japanese cartoon is simply incoherent
    For the sake of simplicity, I use the words that way because people use the word "cartoon" to refer to American animation (I use it as a reference to origin rather than style). However, I personally do not like using the words that way. I do treat anime as cartoons because that is what they are: Japanese cartoons. However, since anime are JAPANESE cartoons, I do not consider ALL cartoons as anime (the Japanese do, but I am not Japanese).

    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    They do have real and noticeable differences that do not have a relation to their origins
    Perhaps the definition has simply been one of convenience
    It has, which is kinda my point. Not all anime has the same style. There is a common one, yes, one that is very recognizable the moment that anyone sees it, but not ALL anime follow this style. Westerners just use the word "anime" to refer to Japanese animation. Because of this, if we decide to call Avatar an anime, it needs to have some trait in it that ALL anime share in order for it be an anime (for me and most people, the trait that all anime share is origin; all anime are from Japan). Simply having a common look is not enough. Legless lizards LOOK like snakes, but they are not snakes. Hyenas LOOK like dogs, but they are not dogs. Avatar LOOKS like an anime, but its not an anime.

    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    And again I ask whether the CGI appleseed is an anime?
    CGI is a form of animation. Since Appleseed is from Japan and is animated, yes, I would consider Appleseed an anime.

    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    Or is it not? (Cos it seems to defy the common perceptions of what is an "Anime" just as the Avatar movie could be said to challenge just what a "Cartoon" actually is)
    And what IS a cartoon to you, exactly? I honestly don't think that Avatar challenged a thing because it certainly is not the first cartoon to have an anime infuence (Transformers and Thundercats did the same thing 20 years ago). Again, for the sake of simplicity, I use the words "cartoon" and "anime" to denote origin (America and Japan, respectively). I don't use them to refer to any type of style because not all cartoons have the same style (Avatar proves this) and not all anime have the same style (Shin Chan proves this).

    Its pretty obvious that Avatar blends anime styles with American cartoon styles. Because of this, what I want to know is why, if Avatar is a BLEND of anime and American cartoon styles, should it be called "anime" (and ONLY anime) and not a "cartoon"?

    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    People commonly hold to the idea of anime being only from Japan because that is merely the norm
    It seems to be more of an unwritten rule rather then any conscious consensus of definition
    True, but in order to expand the definition, there needs to be an acknowledgment of an "anime style" (again, the only reason why we are talking right now is because Avatar LOOKS like an anime). And in order to lump all anime together by style, there needs to be SOME stylistic trait in common in ALL anime (if origin is no longer a factor). In order to make a group, there needs to be SOMETHING in common among all members, something they have in relation to each other, something they have in common. If we can't do that with anime (again, with origin no longer a factor), then we are stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    So why can't it be a cartoon?
    Again, I only use the word "cartoon" to denote origin in this case, not style. Since Super Milk Chan is from Japan, I would consider it an anime, regardless of what it looked like (anime being defined simply as a cartoon from Japan). When it comes to Avatar, I would call it an anime-influenced cartoon.

    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    BTW I must say this is a fun debate
    most debates I've seen on this quickly disolve into anarchy of anime rage lol
    This is a fun debate. Somebody called it a flame war. Its not. I wouldn't really call it a heated debate; just very intelligent and very fun.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    It has, which is kinda my point. Not all anime has the same style. There is a common one, yes, one that is very recognizable the moment that anyone sees it, but not ALL anime follow this style. Westerners just use the word "anime" to refer to Japanese animation. Because of this, if we decide to call Avatar an anime, it needs to have some trait in it that ALL anime share in order for it be an anime (for me and most people, the trait that all anime share is origin; all anime are from Japan). Simply having a common look is not enough. Legless lizards LOOK like snakes, but they are not snakes. Hyenas LOOK like dogs, but they are not dogs. Avatar LOOKS like an anime, but its not an anime.
    You bring up style traits (In terms of how it looks) but what else would you say defines an anime?
    (apart from being Japanese)
    Storytelling? Genres? Themes?
    Perhpas you could go through and define what is an anime based upon certain techniques I'm not really up on the whole tecnical side of cartoon and anime making processes so here is where I have to stop lol)
    CGI is a form of animation. Since Appleseed is from Japan and is animated, yes, I would consider Appleseed an anime.
    Sorry this is only peripherally relevant but some call it anime but others consider CGI to basically be a completely seperate form of animation
    Although Vandread (Or code Lyoko for Cartoons) for example would put this to rest being both more traditional animation with CGI
    but pure CGI seems to bemoving into a realm seperate from ANIME/Cartoon IMO
    And what IS a cartoon to you, exactly?
    A cartoon.
    Is a animation style based upon a unique look
    It has it's own style in terms of how it actually draws characters and their features etc
    I honestly don't think that Avatar challenged a thing because it certainly is not the first cartoon to have an anime infuence (Transformers and Thundercats did the same thing 20 years ago).
    I think it did
    If only because Avatar came and gained a more mainsteam popularity and got pushed to the forefront of this debate as the posterchild for "American Anime"
    Again, for the sake of simplicity, I use the words "cartoon" and "anime" to denote origin (America and Japan, respectively). I don't use them to refer to any type of style because not all cartoons have the same style (Avatar proves this) and not all anime have the same style (Shin Chan proves this).
    Its pretty obvious that Avatar blends anime styles with American cartoon styles. Because of this, what I want to know is why, if Avatar is a BLEND of anime and American cartoon styles, should it be called "anime" (and ONLY anime) and not a "cartoon"?
    I guess I'm really not trying to say it can ONLY be called an anime but that it should not be barred from being called an anime simply because of origins
    I seem to have moved to more of a Devils advocate for it tho
    Really I think it should be permissable to call it an anime or a cartoon
    depending on the individual really
    I also think "Anime Influenced" isn't really all that great a definition
    The guy who made the original Manga (Tecuma Ozawa wasn't it?) drew heavily from Disney so technically you can call all Animes "Cartoon Influenced" but we don't
    I think Avatar simply deserves the same treatment
    True, but in order to expand the definition, there needs to be an acknowledgment of an "anime style" (again, the only reason why we are talking right now is because Avatar LOOKS like an anime).
    Remember alot of people also claim the stroytelling and narrative styles of anime are different frm Cartoons
    And Avatar seems to hold to that (Animewise) compared to it's more cartoon peers
    And in order to lump all anime together by style, there needs to be SOME stylistic trait in common in ALL anime (if origin is no longer a factor). In order to make a group, there needs to be SOMETHING in common among all members, something they have in relation to each other, something they have in common. If we can't do that with anime (again, with origin no longer a factor), then we are stuck.
    Perhaps a sliding scale then?
    Instead of two camps
    Anime and Cartoon
    They are placed on a scale ranging from anime on one side
    Cartoon on the other and arrange the shows down it based upo trait and features that uniquely distinguish them to one or the other
    Again, I only use the word "cartoon" to denote origin in this case, not style.
    And I think this is what needs to be changed
    definition of a animation based solely upon origin (Which is essentially all that devides the two sides
    This is a fun debate. Somebody called it a flame war. Its not. I wouldn't really call it a heated debate; just very intelligent and very fun.
    indeed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Memento Mori View Post
    Can it just be a matter of opinion rather than a huge war over one definition of an animated feature?
    Where's the fun in that?


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    Quote Originally Posted by 小美ドクロchan View Post
    Where's the fun in that?
    I vote we go from arguing over the definition of anime to arguing over that statement. Though yeah, it's a matter of opinion and both sides have valid reasons. Cop out I know, you can argue over that if you want too.

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