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Thread: Health care in America.

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    I have been, and I never heard of it saving anything. But I don't watch CNN.




    It sure seems like they think that way. To me, the Government was broken before and neither was health care. This is really up to personal opinion.


    No, I don't think so. I've heard pf people in places that have the Obama type Health Care and they are not doing that well. Something about outrageous wait times for treatment. But I could be wrong.
    1. Not just CNN, you can go to government sites and see it for yourself and if you dont trust .gov then there is little point in debating if my source is not trust worthy because .gov is one of the things you should be able to trust. If it is not good enough than nothing is. Forgotten show dont seem to understand that.
    2. Personal opinion? How is healthcare not broken? It does not work for everyone,ad goes against the morals of what America stands for. Everyone should have = right no matter how poor you are.

    3. The only thing I heard about wait times are from opponets of the bill. Also some of the bill as well as the stim targets education and further more targets healthcare education thus having more doctors and medical staff.

    4. How much of any other country that witched to National or whatever healthcare did they have for % of population that did nt have insurance that would be covered by the plan after passing? Ours is 30 million, only 10%. how much was theirs? ( I really dont know. )
    Last edited by Battler Ushiromiya; 03-11-2010 at 04:58 PM.

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  2. #52
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    The government creates .gov sites. The government is not run by unbiased people. Many people in government have an agenda they want to push. Therefore, the .gov sites say whatever they want them to say, truth or not.

    They're not good enough.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Commander View Post
    The government creates .gov sites. The government is not run by unbiased people. Many people in government have an agenda they want to push. Therefore, the .gov sites say whatever they want them to say, truth or not.

    They're not good enough.
    Again. I agree.


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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ericgamer1 View Post
    That's due in part because the system was blanketed over the entire economy structure.

    If it was limited just to healthcare, it would probably work.
    Perhaps in a similar manner to the way Social Security is working out
    Just pointing out that Health Care reform is far from the only socialist program we have here in the US

  5. #55
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    I dont really know much about American health care all I know is alot of Americans love the insurance set up and somr dont. I know the insurance companies really only care about money-but thats why they're companies-with that said I'm dont know if they'll leave you to die I should'nt think so.

    I'm from Ireland and the healthcare here is great I've never heard a complaint from anyone we dont worry about insurance because the Government takes care of the bill from our taxes. I know in 2000 the WHO posted the list of best quality healthcare in order and Ireland placed in 19th-UK 18th-Netherlands 17th, with the USA in 37th-Costa Rica 36th-dominica 35th. But 2000 was along time ago so I dont know how much better your country is doing now.

    I think alot of poeple stateside would apreciate the social healthcare system Ireland has becuase you can still have the option to deal through an agent company if you are not satisfied.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechCNgod View Post
    As I have stated before, you want me to go through the bill that takes more thana whole night to read, and reply to you with a certain line?
    How about no? Thats just a waste of time...

    Asking me to go through the bill itself and not accept the summary from a .gov site is just...... ridiculous. I dont car if you trust it or not it is my source.
    I'm a research student; fact-checking is what I do, and it's what I expect others to do as well. Not all sources are good sources, as every teacher who's ever assigned a research project to students can attest to. If you want to argue intelligently about this subject then you have to show your work, which in this case means showing me where the bill says you you're saying it does.

    You're pushing for policy that's going to impact me financially; I want to know that you're not going to screw me over. So put up or shut up. Prove that the bills says what you say it says. Not sure how much more simply I can put it.


    No you only gave one way government and taxes work, as stated by others there are other reasons for taxes too. You just narrowed it to serve your own views.
    Now you're just being obstinate. There are primary functions, secondary functions, and incidental functions of taxes, all of which will differ based on who is doing the taxing and where. Wolfgirl's "Four Rs" are described on Wikipedia as the "Four Rs", but are meant to describe taxation in general. It's not an especially accurate description of how taxation works in the United States, for reasons I've already described. I don't care what other countries do with taxes or how they go about taxing. I live, and intend to live, in the United States. This conversation is about the United States. Taxation in the United States is the relevant topic.


    You can say that it works in Brittin and wont work here in America just because we are different but you did not say why.
    Actually, I gave several very good reasons. My apologies that the dots presented were not a coherent enough picture for you.

    Incidentally, you prove one of my points fantastically by mentioning the different laws in different states. There are a large number of crimes that are only crimes in certain legal jurisdictions. In Florida, I can make U-turns at most intersections and make right turns on a red light unless a sign specifically says not to; this is not the case with much of the rest of the cuontry. I can carry a firearm concealed on my person if I pay for the license fee and have a clean background; many states are more restrictive of license issuance, and a couple don't allow it at all. I don't have a state income tax (awesome!), where virtually every other state in the country does. Going a step further, the county-by-county difference in Florida is pretty remarkable; some are in the red (financially) almost constantly, where others bordering them are doing quite fine.

    We were arranged in States because the Framers, pretty smart dudes, realized that one-size-fits-all legislation does not often work. We were pretty large back then and they knew we'd only get bigger. With most legislative relevance shifted to the local and state level governments, people can dictate their own local and state environments in a way that more closely represents the people living in that area. I abhor the thought of telling Arizonans what they ought to be doing and trying to force our policies on them; they're a different state with different residents, a different economy, and different needs. Likewise, I'll fight like hell to keep Californians and New Yorkers from pushing Cali- and NYC-politics onto my home state. Different people, different economies, different needs.

    A country a very small fraction of the physical size of another country, but with a population density almost 10 times greater, is going to have very different needs than than the much larger, much less densely populated country. Public service needs will be different, economies will be different, culture will be different. Don't forget the difference in money, both the amount on-hand and the ability to generate it, which will determine how much funding can be allocated to particular public programs.

    What's the average income, adjusted for cost of living, of someone in Britain and someone in the United States? Why does cost of living differ by region? What's the average population density in which they live? What's the average rate of unemployment where they live? How does overall health of the average Brit compare to the average American? Are you starting to get the picture now?


    the stim bill also made this bill look bad even though it is working just find.
    Even though I already know it's not, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: "Show me." I have Recovery.gov up, as you indirectly linked to, and I'm not seeing anything so far that says it's "working just fine". Do you know how many of the jobs are sustainable? The New Deal created a lot of jobs too, the vast majority of which were temporary and were not the jobs needed to jumpstart the economy (which is why the Depression continued into WWII). Just sayin'.


    Define "pork" as it relates to bills please.
    Pork barrel as it relates to this bill is exactly the same as it relates to any other bill. Wiki describes it pretty simply: "Pork barrel is a derogatory term referring to appropriation of government spending for localized projects secured solely or primarily to bring money to a representative's district." Every mega bill that's been fielded to date has been bloated with it, and none of it has ever been announced or included in .gov summaries. Can you say with confidence that this bill is somehow different?



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  7. #57
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    i had an appointment once at 10:00 i got there at 10:00, didn't get into the little room untill 10:45,didn't see the doctor untill 11:15,he talked and tested my reflexes and put the light in my mouth and eyes, it lasted untill 11:30, than i recieved a bill a week later for 950 dollars for the visit........yea healthcare needs to change we need universial health care.


  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Phoenix View Post
    i had an appointment once at 10:00 i got there at 10:00, didn't get into the little room untill 10:45,didn't see the doctor untill 11:15,he talked and tested my reflexes and put the light in my mouth and eyes, it lasted untill 11:30, than i recieved a bill a week later for 950 dollars for the visit........yea healthcare needs to change we need universial health care.
    ....you serious?!
    So this is what happens in the civilian world.
    Wow that is scary.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyndrasta View Post
    ....you serious?!
    So this is what happens in the civilian world.
    Wow that is scary.
    I hope he's being sarcastic.


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    i asked my dad about the U.S healthcare system and he told me...

    if you get hit by a car in

    America- the ambulance guys will ask if you have insurance before taking you to the hospital or somthing along those lines.

    Britain- they will take you to the hospital , no questions asked

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    I hope he's being sarcastic.
    But I thought visits to the clinic (not the hospital/ER) is $35 to $50 max.
    Unless Im taking this assumption just for the state of California, then I could be wrong.

    But close to $1000 is just whack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GAZKUL View Post
    i asked my dad about the U.S healthcare system and he told me...

    if you get hit by a car in

    America- the ambulance guys will ask if you have insurance before taking you to the hospital or somthing along those lines.
    Your Dad has no idea what he's talking about.


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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Your Dad has no idea what he's talking about.
    im not that sure about it either...

  14. #64
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    The way I look at it, people should have to pay money when they're healthy, and not have to pay anything when they're sick. Maybe then doctors will try to keep people as healthy as possible to prevent losing profits.

    It's the same capitalist approach to healthcare, just in reverse of how it is now. makes a lot more sense when you think of it like that, huh?

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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by GAZKUL View Post
    im not that sure about it either...
    I think the one who lives is the US would understand it more.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    I think the one who lives is the US would understand it more.
    You know that can be turned aroun on you as well?
    I think those that live with Universal health care would know t more than us, and one of them said it was good.
    Just saying...
    Also if you can not trust .gov sites then please stop posting. I will use that as my source as much as I like, if you have an issue wth it prove my information is wrong or shut up please.
    It is not my fault you dont trust .gov.
    Tell me what kind of source can I find that would be better?

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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyndrasta View Post
    But I thought visits to the clinic (not the hospital/ER) is $35 to $50 max.
    Unless Im taking this assumption just for the state of California, then I could be wrong.

    But close to $1000 is just whack.

    A clinic visit for me is about $100, if I do need a prescription and don't need further work done. I have no insurance, and therefore must pay cash/debit prior to seeing the doctor.

    You've got some benefits we must not have. Don't you get insurance/health care? provided by the military?

  18. #68
    Cardinal of Eden Vital Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SOS TechCNgod View Post
    You know that can be turned aroun on you as well?
    I think those that live with Universal health care would know t more than us, and one of them said it was good.
    Just saying...
    Also if you can not trust .gov sites then please stop posting. I will use that as my source as much as I like, if you have an issue wth it prove my information is wrong or shut up please.
    It is not my fault you dont trust .gov.
    Tell me what kind of source can I find that would be better?
    I don't know why you're saying this to me. If I don't agree, there's no reason to be mean.
    I just don't want the health care, I never said ours was 100% better, both have bad things and good things. I just don't think the government should force us to buy something.
    I never insulted you or anything, did I? Sorry if you felt that way.
    Last edited by Rolo Vi Britannia; 03-13-2010 at 08:08 PM.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    I don't know why you're saying this to me. If I don't agree, there's no reason to be mean.
    I just don't want the health care, I never said ours was 100% better, both have bad things and good things. I just don't think the government should force us to buy something.
    I never insulted you or anything, did I? Sorry if you felt that way.
    Ok maybe I was harsh but post 52 and 53 makes me want to punch someone in the face.
    Like I said if I can not link a source because you, cobra, and forgotten just shoot it down by say it is not good when .gov is good then I am sorry but I will not carry a debate unless someone tells me a site that they agree with that is not ment for thier debates side.
    How am I suppose to prove my point when forgotten just stands there say " i dont want a summary or anything else that might prove me wrong, or not 100% correct because I MUST be right" and others stand there supporting him without backing it up.
    Post 52 gives nothing to back it up other than thier opinion.
    Yes some/most people in government do push for their views, it's only natural, but they can only do that so far! Not everyone is like that, and unless you can prove that the links I post are what you fear then your shooting down of them is just dumb.
    Sorry I should nothave said what is said to you but I am sure you understand why it is getting annoying and why i will not respond to certain people anymore.

    I am moving this topic along now.... more targeted... I hope...
    Country ComparisonLife expectancy at birth
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2102rank.html
    Talk about it.
    Why Is america so low?
    I mean 49th really?
    Last edited by Battler Ushiromiya; 03-13-2010 at 08:36 PM.

    The seven stakes of purgatory! ^^ Good thing to know that they will be the last thing you see before you die. ^^

  20. #70
    Senior Member Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander's Avatar
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    If my opinion makes you want to punch someone in the face, that's your problem. I don't recall ever attacking you or being rude to you in any way.
    This is an extremely divisive issue, and for you to not expect dissenting opinions that really rub you the wrong way is quite naive.

    You want a .gov site you can trust? Any law enforcement agency. However, any site run by the sitting administration will be slanted in their favor. This is not exclusive to Obama, Bush, or anyone else. The WMD's in Iraq that didn't ever turn up is an excellent example of this - the information was brought out by the administration, and corroborated by other sources foreign and domestic. And they were wrong. It's not a one time occurrence. Politicians stack the deck in their favor any time they have to face the public, or even other politicians.

    I never shot down your examples or even made an argument against your points. All I said, regarding this health care issue is "I don't like it, and don't want it" and "People with no jobs can't afford to buy health care, so they should focus on the economy instead." Your issue in this discussion is not, or should not be, with me. I provided an opinion. My major opposition to this issue relates to how we will pay for it, and my distaste for raising taxes. I don't really care who runs the health care system, so long as it doesn't wind up costing me more money. At the moment, Obama's plan to force me to buy a product I can't afford is also a problem. I don't have health insurance because I cannot afford the deduction from my paycheck. I actually could take one plan. However, the deductible is $1000. I go to the doctor once per year. It's cheaper to just pay out of pocket than to lose $60 a month AND THEN still have to burn through that deductible to get any of my benefits. From where I sit, this mandate will simply force me to flush my hard earned dollars down the toilet. I don't have to give you facts to back that up, it's simply reality for me and many others.

    You, as well as everyone else, probably learned in school that the government, the ACLU, the Southern Poverty Law Center, and the like were all trustworthy sites. That's just fine. They tried to tell me that the New York Times was an unbiased information source, too. You will find a bias one way or another in virtually every source.

    What I usually do, is read news releases from multiple sites. Yes, I like Fox. I am well aware that they lean as far right as CNN leans left. My solution is to check both of them, if it's something I care enough about to follow up on. Or look at BBC, or Reuters, etc. Hell, sometimes the only one talking about anything is Glenn Beck or that lunatic that runs InfoWars.

    If you want me to provide a site to you that I personally approve of, you won't find it. There's no one single source that I go to for news and information. However, when it comes to something that costs me more money, I don't trust the government. They want to pass the bill, of course any information they release is going to show it only in a positive light.



    __________________________________


    Now, regarding your life expectancy question. I suspect we're so low on the list due to our lifestyle.

    We smoke. We eat a lot of fast food, crap food, convenience food. When we think of a good meal, for a lot of people a Stouffer's Lasagna fits the bill. We don't eat right, we don't exercise. Look at the common diet for a person in France or Greece, or wherever you really feel like looking, and compare it to the general diet we Americans have. We get what we put in.
    Last edited by Cobra Commander; 03-13-2010 at 09:31 PM.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Commander View Post
    If my opinion makes you want to punch someone in the face, that's your problem. I don't recall ever attacking you or being rude to you in any way.
    This is an extremely divisive issue, and for you to not expect dissenting opinions that really rub you the wrong way is quite naive.

    You want a .gov site you can trust? Any law enforcement agency. However, any site run by the sitting administration will be slanted in their favor. This is not exclusive to Obama, Bush, or anyone else. The WMD's in Iraq that didn't ever turn up is an excellent example of this - the information was brought out by the administration, and corroborated by other sources foreign and domestic. And they were wrong. It's not a one time occurrence. Politicians stack the deck in their favor any time they have to face the public, or even other politicians.

    I never shot down your examples or even made an argument against your points. All I said, regarding this health care issue is "I don't like it, and don't want it" and "People with no jobs can't afford to buy health care, so they should focus on the economy instead." Your issue in this discussion is not, or should not be, with me. I provided an opinion. My major opposition to this issue relates to how we will pay for it, and my distaste for raising taxes. I don't really care who runs the health care system, so long as it doesn't wind up costing me more money. At the moment, Obama's plan to force me to buy a product I can't afford is also a problem. I don't have health insurance because I cannot afford the deduction from my paycheck. I actually could take one plan. However, the deductible is $1000. I go to the doctor once per year. It's cheaper to just pay out of pocket than to lose $60 a month AND THEN still have to burn through that deductible to get any of my benefits. From where I sit, this mandate will simply force me to flush my hard earned dollars down the toilet. I don't have to give you facts to back that up, it's simply reality for me and many others.

    You, as well as everyone else, probably learned in school that the government, the ACLU, the Southern Poverty Law Center, and the like were all trustworthy sites. That's just fine. They tried to tell me that the New York Times was an unbiased information source, too. You will find a bias one way or another in virtually every source.

    What I usually do, is read news releases from multiple sites. Yes, I like Fox. I am well aware that they lean as far right as CNN leans left. My solution is to check both of them, if it's something I care enough about to follow up on. Or look at BBC, or Reuters, etc. Hell, sometimes the only one talking about anything is Glenn Beck or that lunatic that runs InfoWars.

    If you want me to provide a site to you that I personally approve of, you won't find it. There's no one single source that I go to for news and information. However, when it comes to something that costs me more money, I don't trust the government. They want to pass the bill, of course any information they release is going to show it only in a positive light.
    Your opinion is something that tried to shoot down my source. So I asked that you provide me with some type of link that you will not just say "dont trust". Is that too much to ask for? No I think not.
    BBC I looked into and so far it does not seem to lean anyway, BUT I could not find a healthcare bill summary, and if I did I would use it. I will gladly use this as a source in the future but until you guys show me a summary of the bill that would not lean to anyside, ect.. then I will have to say that you have no right to shoot down my .gov link, OR link me the bill itself, and not the old versions.
    Now for that long statment of yours... none of it is backed up as well as this thought you had about "being forced to buy it when you can't afford it."
    In the summary I linked it says that there limits on who can buy insurance through this, and only those that CAN pay. It is not real what you said, because you dont even know his plans or else you would have known you will not be forced to buy. There are somethings in the bill that get twisted to sound like that, for example.... do you remember death panels? Ya thought so, dont believe everything you hear. I do ask that you back up your statments.

    The seven stakes of purgatory! ^^ Good thing to know that they will be the last thing you see before you die. ^^

  22. #72
    Senior Member Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander's Avatar
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    I knew the death panels were a load of crap the moment I heard the statement and saw who it was that was saying it.

    As for me not having to buy in, the problem is that the government decides these things based on total income. They don't take into account cost of living and debt burden. Take a look at the way the Dept. of Ed determines repayment plans. They don't care that you have to pay rent or pay for a car, they base your repayment plans on your income. Sure, they'll work with you....My problem is that as a college graduate, my income is not where it should be. Not because I'm better than other people who didn't go to school, or necessarily worth more, but because my student loan payments eat up a huge chunk of my check each month. I doubt that the government will take any of that into account. They'll see that I'm a single employed male, and I make $X, which is more than the poverty threshold.

    My statements all through this discussion have been my own opinion. There are some things, that one knows to be true, but are difficult if not impossible to prove. Examples - God exists/doesn't. OJ was innocent/guilty. Whether or not a bias is present is dependent on one's point of view. You trust the government; I don't. It's really that simple, and there's nothing there to quantify.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Commander View Post
    I knew the death panels were a load of crap the moment I heard the statement and saw who it was that was saying it.

    As for me not having to buy in, the problem is that the government decides these things based on total income. They don't take into account cost of living and debt burden. Take a look at the way the Dept. of Ed determines repayment plans. They don't care that you have to pay rent or pay for a car, they base your repayment plans on your income. Sure, they'll work with you....My problem is that as a college graduate, my income is not where it should be. Not because I'm better than other people who didn't go to school, or necessarily worth more, but because my student loan payments eat up a huge chunk of my check each month. I doubt that the government will take any of that into account. They'll see that I'm a single employed male, and I make $X, which is more than the poverty threshold.

    My statements all through this discussion have been my own opinion. There are some things, that one knows to be true, but are difficult if not impossible to prove. Examples - God exists/doesn't. OJ was innocent/guilty. Whether or not a bias is present is dependent on one's point of view. You trust the government; I don't. It's really that simple, and there's nothing there to quantify.
    So your going to assume that this bill will go off total income?
    Dont twist things around by giving a load of crap with examples like god to not be true or true, this is something else. You have bearly supported anything, and some of this you confuse with opinions when you try and make it sound like your making a statement.
    I am done with you because you just dont get it.
    Dont bother replying.

    The seven stakes of purgatory! ^^ Good thing to know that they will be the last thing you see before you die. ^^

  24. #74
    Senior Member Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander has a reputation beyond repute Cobra Commander's Avatar
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    Yes, I'm going to assume that. Why? Because every other program that involved a government service, both state and federal, uses that as a basis to determine eligibility.

    I already gave you Dept. of Ed with the way they work repayment plans. Which, to their credit, are far more flexible and student oriented than most of the big six lenders. Other than Citibank, that is...they've been good to me.

    Let's see...

    Nearly all welfare/entitlement programs utilize income as a determination of eligibility. Programs like Medicaid, various food stamp and rent assistance programs [varies by state, but CA, NY, and TX follow my example], Unemployment Insurance [measured previous income to determine payout]. Earned income tax credits, and if I recall the stimulus bill Bush passed.

    All of these things, and surely more that I've left out work the way I expect Obamacare to work. It's not an "assumption". I'd call it an informed guess. And it makes sense for that to be how it works.

    For the third time, I don't have to support anything. I haven't posted anything that has a basis in fact. Whether or not the government is honest is a matter of opinion. You've taken issue with opinions I've posted. I attempted to show you my position using a couple of easy analogies.

    I did make a statement. I did not claim it to be fact. It should be quite obvious that it's an opinion.

    As for that last bit, I'll reply as I see fit. If you don't like it, then either ignore what I write, find some kind of ignore list and place me on it, or go cry to a moderator that I'm not playing by your rules, on a forum that you neither own or moderate.

  25. #75
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    If the heath bill that the President Obama wants to pass gets passed that would mean that every one by law would have to get health in insurance or they would be facing a fine over $3,000. I am not saying that the health care in america is the best, but it is a lot better then other countries. People always say that Canada has the best heath care service, but with the universal heath care you could be on a waiting list for months, maybe years no matter how serious your problem is. so no matter what you think we do have one of the best health care systems in the world.

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