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Thread: Health care in America.

  1. #26
    Cowboy Psychologist Forgotten Show has a reputation beyond repute Forgotten Show has a reputation beyond repute Forgotten Show has a reputation beyond repute Forgotten Show has a reputation beyond repute Forgotten Show has a reputation beyond repute Forgotten Show has a reputation beyond repute Forgotten Show has a reputation beyond repute Forgotten Show has a reputation beyond repute Forgotten Show has a reputation beyond repute Forgotten Show has a reputation beyond repute Forgotten Show has a reputation beyond repute Forgotten Show's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ericgamer1 View Post
    Let me ask you a question. If someone was attacked in open daylight and suddenly need serious help, wouldn't it be wrong if everyone just looked the other way and went about their day because it "wasn't their problem"?
    What you're advocating is not other people helping someone being attacked; it's grabbing strangers and forcing them to help the person being attacked. kimi no kioku's point (the first sentence, at any rate) is a very sound one. You cannot force "the right thing", nor is it a function of the government to do so. Taxing someone more because they might feel it less is no more morally right than burglarizing them for the same reason. Flawed reasoning at its best.

    A mindset won't change becuase you legislate it (as proven so poignantly by the civil rights movement).


    That's why taxes exist; because we can't simply depend on people to do the right thing.
    Like hell it is. Taxes exist because a government cannot function without monetary input from the people it governs, and we chose at the onset of this country to have a government to govern the people. Funding government processes is the only function of taxes. Forcibly taking from others what they won't willingly give in order to give it to somebody else is neither a function of taxes nor a function government.


    So yes, the rich need to pay more to help spread the wealth because they're not going to do it just because we ask really nicely.
    You have neither a legal or moral argument to support this. It's my right to choose not to help someone just as it's my right to choose to help someone, and unless I am in a position held legally accountable for providing aid (sworn state workers, for instance) then there is no legal or moral argument to support forcing me to help.


    Bad Memory
    Last edited by Forgotten Show; 03-10-2010 at 12:59 PM.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten Show View Post
    Using the wording of the proposal, where does it aim for prevention rather than reaction?

    Using the wording in the proposal, explain how this will magically add 10% of the US population to insurance, what the demographics are for this 10%.

    Using the wording of the proposal, how will it create more jobs?

    Last question: what gives the US gov't the legal authority to mandate bad/risky business practices on companies?


    I'm no expert and don't work in the medical field, but I work beside, and in my major regularly interact, with those who do. Doc's in the Southeast don't want this to go through in any variety. Why? What do they know that we laymen don't?

    I recommend not reading summaries and read the wording of the bill(s) in question before getting too comfortable on that soap box.



    Bad Memory
    Very sneaky.
    The bill is sooo long and you want me to go through it and do this for you?
    Obama has stated that the bill is aimed at prevention. You would be the first to debate this.... because it is in the bill. I am not going to even bother looking at the thing and pull out these 'lines". it is far more than lines.
    Again I will not pull this out, ut it has been stated that there 300 million in America, correct? They estimate 30 million people that dont have insurance would be able to get into this. 30 million is not the number of those wiithout insurance but a good amount of them. I am not saying that it will add 10%, it wont even be that. I believe I said or at least ment tha it is adding another 10% of America's total population. But because not everyone is on insurance right now it wont even be 10%.

    It has been stated many times that they target health care education in the bill. Maybe I should put it in different terms you mgiht be able to twist those words... Basical it gives more money to those that want a medical feild education.

    Because the people want it? Because we pay them to protect us? Because they would suck if they did not, and they would fail at basic government if they did not?

    I have noticed many people ( I use to be guilty of this too ) believe a certain side without "fliping the chessboard". Think why would they push this bill through? Tell me an honest reply, and we can continue. it hurts thier polls, and image right now. Why would they push for this bill?
    Also Why do those doctors fear it? maybe liek most of us they have only heard bits and parts. Some of those bits and parts were used to create the illusion of "death panels" if I remember correctly. So please if you believe everything you hear, then at least try to hear both sides clearly.

    I use to be against the bill myself.

    @ The forgotten shows post above me.
    For your first to points....
    But what you say is true. We are taxed so that our government can live, but also OUR form of government is around to serve the people, and thus it is thier duty to use that money for 2 things, themself and us. They must stay alive while serving us. People have a say always.
    the last one.
    I agree to a point, but they do need to be taxed more for no other reason then that the have more, and still wont be that much. I dont feel too strongly on this issue right now SO I will drop it for now.
    Last edited by Battler Ushiromiya; 03-10-2010 at 02:02 PM.

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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechCNgod View Post
    Very sneaky.
    The bill is sooo long and you want me to go through it and do this for you?
    Yes. I want you to show me where the bill does exactly what you say it does. This is something you, as a proponent, should know and be able to show to skeptics. Americans are, by and large, pretty damn tired of taking people's word for it. Three consecutive presidents of "Here's what I'll do for you... maybe" will do that to a country.

    Unless the bill's version of prevention is something radically different than DARE and other abstinence programs, you're not earning much cred here.


    Think why would they push this bill through? Tell me an honest reply, and we can continue. it hurts thier polls, and image right now. Why would they push for this bill?
    Because it is the single reason why the Democrats won the last presidential election; Republicans wouldn't talk about health care at all except to say "We don't like what they're offering," and the Democrats simply played the "At least we're offering something" angle and won. They have to pursue it. It's the one big ticket item they promised during the campaign trails (executive and congressional) that they thought could pass muster. I promise you that if they knew how badly received this whole debacle would be not a peep would have been made about health care on any big campaign trail.

    Look, you're putting a lot of faith in an organization world-renowned for truly epic screw-ups. They do not have the requisite knowledge of health care and the health care system to understand what needs to be done, as evidenced by these "megabills" that aren't intended to be read in full but passed on faith.

    If you want to show me, and others, that this crap is actually a good thing, that medical professionals are wrong, that small businesses are wrong, and that the vast majority of the American people are wrong, then show us. Comments like "I used to be against it" without demonstrating why make this whole thing sound like a religious argument.


    Curious note: Anyone know what the difference between health care and health care insurance is? Can anyone guess why this is relevant to the discussion? If you can find these answers, you'll know a bit more of why health care workers oppose this bill as much as they do.


    But what you say is true. We are taxed so that our government can live, but also OUR form of government is around to serve the people, and thus it is thier duty to use that money for 2 things, themself and us. They must stay alive while serving us. People have a say always.
    the last one.
    I agree to a point, but they do need to be taxed more for no other reason then that the have more, and still wont be that much. I dont feel too strongly on this issue right now SO I will drop it for now.
    All of this betrays a very blatant lack of knowledge about how and why governments work, including our own. Our government has no authority to take from Peter to give to Paul, unless a contract between Peter and Paul is not being honored. I have no duty to put your kids through school. I have no duty to pay your medical bills. I have no duty to take care of you. As such, and as is made very clear by reading the US Constitution and noting what's not in it, the US government has no authority to make me put your kids through school, to make me pay your medical bills, or to make me take care of you.

    Taxes are not for redistributing wealth. They're for care and feeding of government so the government can do its job protecting us and serve as the arbiter for civil disputes.

    It truly amazes me that the same people who can all agree that burglary is wrong think that it's okay if the victims are rich.


    Bad Memory

  4. #29
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    http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defa...s-proposal.pdf
    .gov says good source
    Go ahead look everything up yourself. Why will I not point it out? ( this is only a summary ) I dont point things out because as you read this, and remember what Obama has talked about then maybe you will understand he is not trying to fool you.

    If you have concerns then look here.
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting


    Now to coninue.

    It is hard to show you a bill that changes a lot. Now dont go "so you dont know what the final bill will be?" No that is a weak point. No one knows but Obama has stated that he is willing to use the veto shoud anything go wrong. I dont care if you like Obama or not but if you pay attention he really means what he says. By prevention he means investing in prevention medical care, understand? This point is often over looked. Regular check ups, ect..

    These mega bills? really? healthcare reform is not simple. Until you understand that then dont bother crying about how big a bill is. "lets push it through little by little" is also not going to work. Some of this only works if other parts are acted apon. No, the dems did try to stop but Obama pushed and they had to follow. He does not care about his poll numbers as much as people unlike most others. The fact that he as pushed and began to fight so hard is proof of that. If he cared about himselfwould he have done the right thing or the easy thing?

    Show proof that healthcare workers that KNOW the bill dont like it. You brought up the workers so now I ask you to prove it.

    Thats the wrong way of looking at it. Why should the poor even be taxed in the land of =? ( America ) They are not = to the rich.
    Why Should the rich pay more? It dont seem fair for the reasons you gave.
    Here is why the rich should pay more. because the poor have to pay lets say 1/5th of thier money while the rich pay 1/10000th. Both are at paying $10 for example. Now whats wrong? Someone making $50 pays 1/5th of thier money, while someone that is making 500000 pays $10 as well.
    So now I will use your own argument against you. Why should the poor need to pay a greater % of thier money? Even if is where the rich still pay a little more the % is not even. Many rich Americans have tax cuts as it is. take those away, thats all. it will even things out more.

    Also I dont see anyone Fact checking Obama on whats in the bill. republicans have not so I doubt he is full of lies like people seem to think.
    Last edited by Battler Ushiromiya; 03-10-2010 at 03:44 PM.

    The seven stakes of purgatory! ^^ Good thing to know that they will be the last thing you see before you die. ^^

  5. #30
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    I do agree with the health care reform. It is a very good way to allow those who can't afford health care a fighting chance and be at less mercy of these companies. It will also be good for the country over all cause It will most likely come out of tax payer money, so with that said it will end up helping everyone.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechCNgod View Post
    Go ahead look everything up yourself. Why will I not point it out? ( this is only a summary )
    And that's precisely my problem. All that you and other proponents show when people like me ask for details is a summary. I don't want a summary. A summary is not defensible in court, and a summary cannot be weighed legally if, in fact, it's incorrect. Government summaries are only slightly better than a summary you or I would make, and government summaries can lie too (REAL ID).

    You are saying this is a good idea, therefor the onus is on you to prove it.


    It is hard to show you a bill that changes a lot...
    I don't like or dislike President Obama any more than I liked or disliked Former President Bush. My argument has nothing at all to do with partisan politics. What I want is for people like you to show people like me that we're not about to be hoodwinked again.

    You might not have noticed, but all actions have consequences. Some are so miniscule as to be irrelevant. Some are orders of magnitude greater than the original actions. Over the last 50 years we have seen a litany of government actions whose negative long-term consequences were either ignored or not known. The direct, short-term costs associated with something as massive as this health care proposal are not insignificant. In fact, they're friggin' huge. I have seen in the last two years (24 months) enormous government expenditures that were promised to be good investments... but weren't. Show me this is a good investment, and that we won't suffer from it in the future.


    healthcare reform is not simple. Until you understand that then dont bother crying about how big a bill is.
    Piss-poor answer, for precisely the reason you are refusing to hunt for those kinda-important topics I've been asking for. People don't read them. Nobody who is actively voting on these mega bills actually reads them; the politicians have admitted it themselves on virtually every occassion where they are asked. Becuase of this, the amount of waste, imbedded pork, and unrelated nonsense in each of these megabills has exceeded any other measure of each to date.

    If a law cannot be summed up in 20 pages or less, it needs to die a fiery death. If a law cannot be read and understood by the politicians who are voting on it, it needs to die a fiery death. The most complicated subjects in the world can be stripped to bare nuts and bolts by asking the following two questions: "What can we legally do about it?" and "What do our constituents want?" Our government is a representative republic, not a "Daddy knows best" oligarchy. Its powers are also well defined and quite limited. If our government officials will not represent us, they need to go.


    Show proof that healthcare workers that KNOW the bill dont like it. You brought up the workers so now I ask you to prove it.
    I'm not sure how you'd like me to document first-hand experience, but the NY Times reported on the AMA being against the gov't proposals, AJC wrote on doctor's protests in Atlanta, and ask any physician you meet how thrilled they are with Medicare/Medicaid (a very big component of the gov't proposals).


    Thats the wrong way of looking at it. Why should the poor even be taxed in the land of =? ( America ) They are not = to the rich.
    Why Should the rich pay more? It dont seem fair for the reasons you gave.
    Everyone who lives in America and receives the benefits of living in America pays a tax to support the government that allows them to live in, and receive the benefits of living in, America. Rich, poor, or somewhere inbetween, we all pay the piper to live in the US of A, the land of equality under the law. That you think it's fair for a government to forcibly take from some to give to others, and that ours is a nation of general equality, is pretty revealing.


    So now I will use your own argument against you. Why should the poor need to pay a greater % of thier money? Even if is where the rich still pay a little more the % is not even. Many rich Americans have tax cuts as it is.
    Fairness in taxation is a debatable subject; flat rate taxation is what everyone says they want but progressive taxation is what they vote for. I'm in strong disagreement with the personal income tax anyway, as it's a negligable part of the US government's income and does more to harm US citizens than it does help them. My previous statements didn't touch on this intentionally, as it becomes more an argument of preferences and idealism than of the present reality.

    I'm not as tax-savvy as I would like to be, so what taxes specifically on "the rich" are they receing breaks from? Business-related? Personal? If their tax breaks are because they are business owners, and the perceived lack of tax breaks for the poor (I don't know how this perception came about, considering the tax breaks they do receive) are because they don't own businesses, does this change your opinion any?


    Also I dont see anyone Fact checking Obama on whats in the bill. republicans have not so I doubt he is full of lies like people seem to think.
    Your misuse of logic and blatant disregard for facts frighten me. People are constantly fact-checking the health care proposal, which is why the uproar against it hasn't died down to something more easily overlooked. Just because you don't see it happening does not mean it isn't. As I said previously, I don't care about the President any more than as a politician pushing for something I, and the vast majority of Americans, do not want.



    Bad Memory

  7. #32
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten Show View Post
    Like hell it is. Taxes exist because a government cannot function without monetary input from the people it governs, and we chose at the onset of this country to have a government to govern the people. Funding government processes is the only function of taxes.
    Well, that's about as ignorant as saying that the reason that taxes exist was for redistribution. Your answer was just as bad.

    There are four main ideological reasons (not just one) for why we pay taxes:

    1. Revenue (the main reason): Self-explanatory. Taxes are paid to raise money for transportation, education, the military, jobs and the overall operation of the government.

    2. Redistribution: While some may disagree with this action, there is no doubt that taxes are used for this. Where the hell do you think Medicare came from? Who pays for that?

    3. Re-pricing: To discourage or encourage the use of certain goods. For example, the government doesn't tax tobacco to raise money from it; they tax it because they hope that you won't buy it.

    4. Representation: We pay taxes so that the people who represent us will be held accountable for what they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten Show View Post
    And that's precisely my problem. All that you and other proponents show when people like me ask for details is a summary. I don't want a summary. A summary is not defensible in court, and a summary cannot be weighed legally if, in fact, it's incorrect. Government summaries are only slightly better than a summary you or I would make, and government summaries can lie too (REAL ID).

    You are saying this is a good idea, therefor the onus is on you to prove it.
    Okay, this back and forth has been going on for longer than it should, so let's dumb it down.

    @TechCNgod: As the OP, since you brought up the topic, you have the burden of proof here. Whatever you support has to be proven in some way. Its not up to us to figure it out; its up to you to explain it. And honestly, yes, you should have done a bit more homework on your own topic before starting a thread on it.

    @Forgotten Show: No offense, but you are asking for a lot more than what can be given. You don't want a summary; what DO you want? Do you want the entire bill explained to you? Do you think that there are people who have memorized the bill and have committed it memory? To be fair, the thread was created for people to discuss health care in the United States, not to just to discuss the bill or even to push the bill. TechCNgod likes it, you don't. That really should be the end of it (unless you want an in-depth play-by-play of the bill).

    That being said, I'll just throw my two cents in:

    At this point, the bill is less about health "care" reform (since we kinda did away with the public option a long time ago) and more about health "insurance" reform. We already have a system in place where the uninsured can get treatment with no cost, so that's not relevant to the bill itself (we already do that)

    I do agree that something needs to change here. While MY health insurance is just great (TRICARE, baby), some others...well, let's just say that some companies simply have the nerve to call what they offer "health insurance". There are people out there who have to choose between food and insurance not because they don't work, but because they simply can't afford it.

    However, the bill is what I have an issue with. I have a feeling that the bill has less to do about "reforming" health care and more about making sure that the Democratic Party is getting a bill out as soon as possible.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 03-10-2010 at 07:36 PM.
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  8. #33
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    Ok then. I agree his has gone on long enough. I side tracked myself. XD
    But yes you are right once I was side tracke to the bill I should have taken time and shown MORE proof of my claims. however I did not backup some stuff because it was a lot to back up.
    One last note to forgotten show.
    I had reason for not trying to show you the bill as it was. A summaryis there for a reason. care to take a guess. I am sorry you dont trust .gov sites, so i will say this. NOTHING would have been good enough for you. There for I can not continue this debate with you because of your mind set.
    Also I would like to state that you making your defination of government as if it is the only one is foolish in the way you put it. There is a reason many parties are around. I for one am not part of any party.

    Special thanks to wolfgirl90.

    @forgotten shoe: Oh your links are out dated when there were different bills. One of them from when many still believed in death panels. And you did not prove they knew the bill of the time, only that they were against it.
    Last edited by Battler Ushiromiya; 03-10-2010 at 08:01 PM.

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  9. #34
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    I don't like it. I can't afford health insurance, and I don't support this. There's a whole class of people who don't pay taxes, and actually get free money back - look at earned income tax credit, I think it's called. They pay in all year, get it all back, and then some. Meanwhile, we have these rich people, who are pretty few and far between in the grand scheme of things...taking money from the rich costs jobs. The rich people are rich because they've been successful. If you penalize them for being rich, they'll make the difference up somehow. Probably by raising prices or cutting jobs.

    So...the burden falls on the rapidly shrinking middle class. We're running a worse deficit than when Bush was president, and it seems to be the order of the day to keep on increasing it. We're at, what, triple? Okay. Well, this program can't sustain itself indefinitely. Like Social Security and other programs it will eventually become impotent, and ultimately increase national debt.

    You can only raise taxes so much before it damages the economy. Spending has to stop as well.

    People cannot afford health care if they have no jobs. Therefore, government should be focused on the economy first and foremost.

    Government is a servant of the people, not an overlord. That they continue to force an unpopular agenda forward in place of working to help everyone at once by fixing the economy simply shows that the government is in fact set against the people.

  10. #35
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    If a person can't pay for a life-saving operation, this person should still have the right to have their life saved.
    That would be nice...in a world where morals are law. It is not my duty to help a gangster with a bullet in his neck, or a morbidly obese lady who had a heart attack even though her doctor told her to diet. If hospitals made money by helping everyone who doesn't have some form of health insurance, they would never get anywhere.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Evil View Post
    This. Its, again, why we have taxes.
    I'm have to agree on this one. This is basically's Obama's trumph card. If this fail, there goes his presidency.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Commander View Post
    So...the burden falls on the rapidly shrinking middle class. We're running a worse deficit than when Bush was president, and it seems to be the order of the day to keep on increasing it. We're at, what, triple? Okay. Well, this program can't sustain itself indefinitely. Like Social Security and other programs it will eventually become impotent, and ultimately increase national debt.
    Exactly. Why can't the government see that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Commander View Post
    People cannot afford health care if they have no jobs. Therefore, government should be focused on the economy first and foremost.
    Hit the nail on the head with this one. They should be less focused on the health care stuff and more on jobs. They keep saying that the health care plan will fix the debt, but I doubt it. They'll just tax us and call it fees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Commander View Post
    Government is a servant of the people, not an overlord. That they continue to force an unpopular agenda forward in place of working to help everyone at once by fixing the economy simply shows that the government is in fact set against the people.
    I couldn't agree more.


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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by lisaDANGerous View Post
    Simple, do like they do with taxes. If the poor need it, give it to them. Let the rich pay a little for theirs.
    Hey, communism. So, you're saying that if you work for your whole life, and then you succeed and make money and get a livelihood, then you should take your wealth, and give it to someone who won't work for it? If money is handed to you, then you will never work for it.

    This is the exact same thing that they did in the Soviet Union, and look what happened to them.
    No offense, of course.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Well, that's about as ignorant as saying that the reason that taxes exist was for redistribution. Your answer was just as bad.
    As you list the same response I did as one of your own, I find it remarkable that you'd call my answer ignorant. There are other uses for taxation, but its primary purpose is to keep government working so that it can remain a government. Redistribution is not a primary use. Price control is not a primary use. Representation is not a primary use, and I'm not even sure it would qualify as a secondary use; it was expected that taxpayers would see benefits of their taxes, not that they paid taxes to be represented.


    @Forgotten Show: No offense, but you are asking for a lot more than what can be given. You don't want a summary; what DO you want?
    I've been pretty clear about what I want, which is quoted passages from the proposed bill in question that support the OP's premises.


    At this point, the bill is less about health "care" reform (since we kinda did away with the public option a long time ago) and more about health "insurance" reform...

    However, the bill is what I have an issue with. I have a feeling that the bill has less to do about "reforming" health care and more about making sure that the Democratic Party is getting a bill out as soon as possible.
    Bingo.


    Bad Memory

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Eden View Post
    Hey, communism. So, you're saying that if you work for your whole life, and then you succeed and make money and get a livelihood, then you should take your wealth, and give it to someone who won't work for it? If money is handed to you, then you will never work for it.

    This is the exact same thing that they did in the Soviet Union, and look what happened to them.
    No offense, of course.
    -.-
    Calling someone a communist? Really? Your a child right?
    A. You can work for your whole life and still be dirt poor. Tell me is a factory worker rich? I think not. Did someone that won the lotto work for it? I think not
    B. The wealthy have had tax cuts with the train of thought of "it running down the pipe to the poor", and it did not work. So now what? 3 things ....
    * tax them normaly, and make them pay =. This sounds fair but it is not. By pay = I mean =. ( yes I am too lazy to spell. ) A poor man pays $10 of his $50 paycheck and a rich man pays $10 out of his $100,000. The amount is fair but not the %.
    * Raise taxes so that % is higher than the poor, but I am against this.
    * Make % =. That sounds fair. Why?
    Both the poor and rich have little left to cry about. =% is true fairness. The rich give more, but still keep thier fair share without over taxing. the poor know the rich pay more but it s what hey would pay if they had an = paycheck. This also brings in money for our government.
    Poor would not be over taxed.
    Rich would not be under taxed.
    the government would have greater income with little change and balance needed btween rich and poor taxes.
    HOWEVER
    Taxes that are additions would still maintain value of today.

    It is not wrong to ask the upper class to pay thier fair share if they wil not spend it, only wrong to over do it.
    No it is not the same thing as the SU. Look in a history book and learn ALL aspects of what destroyed the SU.
    @forgotten show: *facepalm*
    You said it yourself. Not even the ones tha vote on the bill are able to read it in a short time, or over night, so you wanted me to go through it and reply?
    At this point I would post the "objection" motivational poster but I dont even see it as worth while.
    Oh and when did you decide what government is for? You cant stand losing can you? ( on that one point at least you have. )
    Last edited by Battler Ushiromiya; 03-10-2010 at 11:43 PM.

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  16. #41
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    im brittish and we have this great thing called the National Health Service where everyone is entitled to free hospital treatment that is paid for by the government, i think you should get it in the states.

    is a rich persons life worth more than a poor persons?
    should a factory worker suffer because he isnt as skilled as a banker?

    i think the american health system is a breach of the "all men are created equal" part of the declaration of independance
    Last edited by -GAZKUL-; 03-11-2010 at 12:19 PM.

  17. #42
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    I agree mostly with GAZKUL.
    So many people say that your healthcare is bad, and yet you say it is great and we should have it as well? I think that says a lot, thanks.

    The seven stakes of purgatory! ^^ Good thing to know that they will be the last thing you see before you die. ^^

  18. #43
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    our healthcare is brillient. if anyone says the NHS is bad then they obviously have never needed it. i have had two foot operations courtesy of it, i come from a fairly poor family and we wouild never have been able to afford to pay for operations.

    the main critics of the National Health Service are the rich poleticians who can afford to go private.

  19. #44
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    Yep, and those that hear thier lies.

    The seven stakes of purgatory! ^^ Good thing to know that they will be the last thing you see before you die. ^^

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Eden View Post
    This is the exact same thing that they did in the Soviet Union, and look what happened to them.
    No offense, of course.
    That's due in part because the system was blanketed over the entire economy structure.

    If it was limited just to healthcare, it would probably work.

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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechCNgod View Post
    @forgotten show: *facepalm*
    You said it yourself. Not even the ones tha vote on the bill are able to read it in a short time, or over night, so you wanted me to go through it and reply?
    I don't know how many times I have to say it or in how many ways. Bad crap gets snuck in through big bills and via smaller bills piggy-backing big bills. I want to know what you say is there is actually there. If you don't see the problem with huge bills that nobody is reading being passed, and if you won't back up your statements with proof, then there's no point in discussing it with you.


    Oh and when did you decide what government is for?
    I didn't. What I described is how the government was designed to work by the people who designed it. I have my own ideas about how governments should work, but not one of them were included in this topic.


    GAZKUL, you are entitled to your opinion. I have a few of my own about the affairs of your country, including about your health care (that not all Brits are as pleased with as you are). But more to the point, you're overlooking a number of fundamental differences between your country and mine that our respective opinions have nothing to do with. Britain has only less than 20% of the population and just over 2% of the land mass of the US. Britain's constitutional monarchy and parliament are different from the federalist government of the United States and its fifty states. The economic structures of the two countries are vastly different. It is simply not reasonable to expect what works for Britain will work for the United States.


    Bad Memory

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten Show View Post
    I don't know how many times I have to say it or in how many ways. Bad crap gets snuck in through big bills and via smaller bills piggy-backing big bills. I want to know what you say is there is actually there. If you don't see the problem with huge bills that nobody is reading being passed, and if you won't back up your statements with proof, then there's no point in discussing it with you.




    I didn't. What I described is how the government was designed to work by the people who designed it. I have my own ideas about how governments should work, but not one of them were included in this topic.


    GAZKUL, you are entitled to your opinion. I have a few of my own about the affairs of your country, including about your health care (that not all Brits are as pleased with as you are). But more to the point, you're overlooking a number of fundamental differences between your country and mine that our respective opinions have nothing to do with. Britain has only less than 20% of the population and just over 2% of the land mass of the US. Britain's constitutional monarchy and parliament are different from the federalist government of the United States and its fifty states. The economic structures of the two countries are vastly different. It is simply not reasonable to expect what works for Britain will work for the United States.


    Bad Memory
    As I have stated before, you want me to go through the bill that takes more thana whole night to read, and reply to you with a certain line?
    How about no? Thats just a waste of time.
    No you only gave one way government and taxes work, as stated by others there are other reasons for taxes too. You just narrowed it to serve your own views.
    Asking me to go through the bill itself and not accept the summary from a .gov site is just...... ridiculous. I dont car if you trust it or not it is my source.
    Giving part of the reason for taxes and hiding the others is not a good way to debate. You have not even debated wolfgirls post, and to the point the one with taxes. Until you do that I wont accept your reason for taxes. Prove that post wrong on the reason for taxes.
    You say you did not include your own ideas about government in this topic? So was the tax thing just misinformation, or missing information?

    You can say that it works in Brittin and wont work here in America just because we are different but you did not say why. You also said that a few other things were different, but that is not a reason.
    Just because a country is different dose not mean solutions from one will not work for another.
    America is divided up into 50 states.
    There are laws that only the states decide on and laws accepted everwhere. If a law does not work in one state then that does not mean it will not work in another. This works both ways though and thus should not be accepted that just because soemthing works for ones does not mean it will work for all,a nd just because something does not work for one doesnto mean it can not work for others.
    How, why, when, ect... all have something to say about if a law, change in government, ect... will be good.
    until you can give reasons why it wont work in America I reject your claim that it wont.
    I have given many reasons, and backed them up with the summary that you dont seem to trust, and some of these should not need to be backed up as it is common knowleage to anyone that keeps thier eyes open and gets past the lies.
    Death panels, ect.... all confuse us as to what is in this bill. Also I think the stim bill also made this bill look bad even though it is working just find.
    Define "pork" as it relates to bills please.
    Last edited by Battler Ushiromiya; 03-11-2010 at 03:49 PM.

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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ericgamer1 View Post
    That's due in part because the system was blanketed over the entire economy structure.

    If it was limited just to healthcare, it would probably work.
    But how long after health care do you think it will take for that to happen?

    The Government thinks that we can't handle our own lives. They think they have to take care of us. That's wrong. The Government should not give us everything. If the Government gives people money and healthcare and everything else, why work? The economy wouldn't get any better. This isn't really directed at you Ericgamer1.

    I agree mostly with GAZKUL.
    So many people say that your healthcare is bad, and yet you say it is great and we should have it as well? I think that says a lot, thanks.
    But not everyone is the UK thinks that way. It's like Forgotten Snow said. It wouldn't work. That's not the same type of Government we have. Not to mention that most people that I see don't want this healthcare plan. That's going against the will of the people, thus it's not a very American thing to do.

    Also I think the stim bill also made this bill look bad even though it is working just find.
    The stimulus bill is working just fine? I never heard of that. Unless that's not what you're talking about.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    But how long after health care do you think it will take for that to happen?

    The Government thinks that we can't handle our own lives. They think they have to take care of us. That's wrong. The Government should not give us everything. If the Government gives people money and healthcare and everything else, why work? The economy wouldn't get any better. This isn't really directed at you Ericgamer1.


    But not everyone is the UK thinks that way. It's like Forgotten Snow said. It wouldn't work. That's not the same type of Government we have. Not to mention that most people that I see don't want this healthcare plan. That's going against the will of the people, thus it's not a very American thing to do.


    The stimulus bill is working just fine? I never heard of that. Unless that's not what you're talking about.
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/02/18/s.../#cnnSTCOther1
    You may find it hard to believe but the stim is working.
    If you followed it, then you would know it has indeed saved and created jobs.

    Moving on.

    No the government as a whole does not think like that. We are simply trying to ballance ot a broken system that hurts some of our people and our nation as a whole.

    Well yes not everyone thinks that. Nothing is perfect, but I ask you.... is it better than what we have now? I would think yes, but I have already gone into that and dont wish to go round and round.

    The seven stakes of purgatory! ^^ Good thing to know that they will be the last thing you see before you die. ^^

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechCNgod View Post
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/02/18/s.../#cnnSTCOther1
    You may find it hard to believe but the stim is working.
    If you followed it, then you would know it has indeed saved and created jobs.
    I have been, and I never heard of it saving anything. But I don't watch CNN.



    Quote Originally Posted by TechCNgod View Post
    No the government as a whole does not think like that. We are simply trying to ballance ot a broken system that hurts some of our people and our nation as a whole.
    It sure seems like they think that way. To me, the Government was broken before and neither was health care. This is really up to personal opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by TechCNgod View Post
    Well yes not everyone thinks that. Nothing is perfect, but I ask you.... is it better than what we have now? I would think yes, but I have already gone into that and dont wish to go round and round.
    No, I don't think so. I've heard pf people in places that have the Obama type Health Care and they are not doing that well. Something about outrageous wait times for treatment. But I could be wrong.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

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