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Thread: *SPOILERS* The shot that killed My Love for Anime

  1. #101
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    Good god...A full heated debate over this?

  2. #102
    Forever 12. Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You need to think more rationally and analytically.

    People can compare anything to anything.

    Take the specific case of comparing the death of a fictional person to the death of a real person. What someone means when writing that the death of fictional character A is 0.98 times as sad and evil as the death of historical character B is that the idea or concept of the death of fictional character A is 0.98 times as sad and evil as the idea or concept of the death of historical character B. If both evens were equallyr eal or fictional then the death of character A would be 0.98 times as sad and evil as the death of character B.

    He does not not mean and cannot mean that the fact or reality of the death of fictional character A is 0.98 times as sad and evil as the fact or reality of the death of historical character B. He cannot mean that, since it is obvious that there is no fact or reality in the death of fictional character A.

    I have thus demonstrated that it is perfectly proper to compare the sadness or evil of the deaths of fictional characters and real historical characters, so long as it is understood that the comparison is between the idea or concept of one death and the idea or concept of another death, and not between the facts or realities of the two deaths.

    But in my post # 80 and 84 I did not even do what you accuse me of doing, comparing a fictional death to a real death or many real deaths. Here is that part:

    Yes, Euphie died for a reason.

    The millions of Jews who died in the holocaust died for a reason -- the crazy Nazi theory that they were evil demons in human form who had to be totally exterminated to save the real human beings from total destruction.. Hundreds of thousands of "witches" who were executed died for a reason -- the wacky theories of the witch hunters about a gigantic, monstrously evil, witchcraft heresy and conspiracy.

    I cannot believe that Lelouch had any better reason for killing Euphie than Nazis or witch hunters had.

    I did not write anything about the relative evilness of Euphemia's death and real deaths, I wrote about the relative evilness and craziness of Lelouch's motive or motives for killing Euphie and the motives of the Nazis and the witch hunters. Surely nobody can object to comparing the relative sanity and evil of the ideas and beliefs of real and fictional characters. The ideas and beliefs of real and fictional characters are equally ideal and non material.

    The next time you want to criticize someone for what they wrote, reread it at least once to find out what they actually wrote.


    Don't recognize this man? His name is Elie Wiesel. He was locked into a Jewish ghetto during the Holocaust and then forced onto an overheated boxcar where there were no toilets, hardly any sunlight, and you could not sit down or lie down. He never saw his sister and mother again after they were taken away to a separate camp. He watched his father be viciously beaten by S.S. guards, then watched him lie dying. He woke up one morning to learn his father had been taken away to a crematory. He watched a father be killed by his own son over scraps of food.

    And you're trying to compare his life, the life lived by millions of other people, most of whom didn't make it, to a fictional character.
    On this day of days, most epic and prideful, you were born 15 whole American years ago!
    Through the odds and by doing the impossible, you beat out hundreds of thousands of siblings in the great sperm race for the coveted egg.
    Probably via hax.
    Regardless! You won!
    So remember, whenever someone picks on you or calls you weak or small.
    Just remind them that you beat out a few hundred thousand other wimps.

    And the grand prize was not dying!

  3. #103
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memento Mori View Post


    Don't recognize this man? His name is Elie Wiesel. He was locked into a Jewish ghetto during the Holocaust and then forced onto an overheated boxcar where there were no toilets, hardly any sunlight, and you could not sit down or lie down. He never saw his sister and mother again after they were taken away to a separate camp. He watched his father be viciously beaten by S.S. guards, then watched him lie dying. He woke up one morning to learn his father had been taken away to a crematory. He watched a father be killed by his own son over scraps of food.

    And you're trying to compare his life, the life lived by millions of other people, most of whom didn't make it, to a fictional character.
    Did you even read my post that you quoted? Why can't you understand my point abut the evilness of the CONCEPTS AND IDEAS of real and fictional crimes?

  4. #104
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Butcher View Post
    I like my characters with no emotions.

    Then you should hate Lelouch anyway, because he had plenty of emotions. But his good emotions were very weak and couldn't stop him from doing evil in obedience to his strong evil emotions.

    As an example of how weak Lelouch's good emotions were, let us agree that Lelouch loved Nunnally, Shirley,and Euphemia. Was his love for them strong enough to do them any good?

    I say that Lelouch's love for Nunnaly, Shirley, and Euphemia was about as strong as the love which the Frankish king Clothaire II had for his cousins Sigebert II and Corbo, or the love that his grandfather king Clothaire I had for his grand daughters, the children of his son Chram. My post #64 above, Lelouch's Love, shows how much good that love did its recipients, and what I think of Lelouch's love for Nunnally, Shirely, and Euphemia.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 01-25-2010 at 12:33 AM.

  5. #105
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Um... Let me say that you can't achieve peace without violence. Euphemia's Specially Administrated Zone mostly likely would have failed without Lelouch's help.
    I disagree with you're reasoning that the younger a person is, the sadder their death is. That's like saying that their lives are worth more.
    I didn't notice your last part before.

    No, I did not mean that any minute or hour of a younger person's life was worth more than a minute or hour of an older person's life. I meant that since a younger person has lived fewer minutes and hours than an older person, if he dies he will have lived fewer minutes and hours than someone who dies at an greater age.

    Being alive is infinitely superior to being dead, while the differences in desirability between different life experiences, which most people consider to be very important, are finite and thus infinitely small compared to the difference between being alive and being dead.

    Since every second that any person lives is worth almost exactly as much as any second that any other person lives, and every year that any person lives is worth almost exactly as much as any year that any other person lives, the number of seconds and minutes and hours and days and weeks and months and years and decades that a person lives is the nearly exact measure of how good his life is. People who die younger have worse lives, people who die older have better lives.

    Although I do think that age differences in the childhood years are probably more important than age differences with the same ratio in adulthood, that the difference between living six and nine years is much greater in some senses than the difference between living sixty and ninety years. Which is bad news for most of us who are old enough to read this forum, I guess.

    By the way, some people think that there is only a small difference in humans lifespans. But in fact, if you are old enough to read and post in this forum you have already lived tens, and hundreds, and thousands, of times as long as the entire lifetimes of countless millions of people.

    And it should be noted that many people believe the best years of most lives are childhood and the teen years. If ideas about the relative superiority of one living experience over another have any validity, then someone who dies while still having part of his childhood ahead of him has usually missed part of the best years of his life, while someone who dies in adulthood has lost only less good adult years. But I think that there is really little difference in value between the best and the worst of life experiences.

    And the number of crimes and evil deeds committed by a group of, for example, ten thousand children are almost always much lower than the number of crimes and evil deeds committed by a group of ten thousand teenagers, and in turn the crimes and evil deeds of ten thousand teenagers are likely to be significantly fewer than the crimes and evil deeds of ten thousand adults in their twenties.

    Thus children are the most innocent age group and thus, other things being equal, the death of a child is much sadder than the death of a teenager, and the death of a teenager is is much sadder than the death of an adult.

    Thus I say that the younger the age someone dies at, the sadder his death is, and it is extremely rare for other factors to make the death of someone even slightly older sadder than the death of someone even slightly younger.

    In my post # 62 above, in my second block of text from the bottom, I discuss the relative sadness and evilness of various anime deaths and murders.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 01-26-2010 at 05:21 PM.

  6. #106
    みんなで歌おうよ!
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    proEuphie: Seems from this whole thread that you don't understand Lelouch's character or Code Geass's type of story.

    Lelouch was created as a Byronic protagonist. A Byronic hero is a highly intelligent but flawed idealist. You can think of them as some genius megalomaniac. Seriously, what did you think? Lelouch is not that gentle knight with shiny armor who will save the princess and live happily ever after. Byronic heros are deceivers, manipulators, they're so arrogant, they will use the worst ways imaginable to achieve their goals. They are not meant to be the perfect person. The story is MEANT to go that way. And that's why it's awesome. If you think Euphie's "murder" was horrible, then HELL YEAH, what did you think? It was MEANT to be so. The writer wanted Lelouch to commit an unforgivable crime to make him pay for it later. You haven't even watched R2, so what are you talking about? Seriously. Japanese Anime, especially this kind, is full of all sorts of shocking content. And Code Geass is that kind of story. If you can't live with it, you don't have to watch it.

    Code Geass is made of pure awesomeness. And Lelouch, along with Light Yagami, are two of the awesomest Byronic protagonists ever made in the whole history of anime. If you can't stand this kind of stories, there are a lot of other anime that you can watch safely without anyone being killed.

  7. #107
    Forever 12. Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori has a reputation beyond repute Memento Mori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Did you even read my post that you quoted? Why can't you understand my point abut the evilness of the CONCEPTS AND IDEAS of real and fictional crimes?
    I hardly doubt Euphemia's massacre of hundreds of people, and then her own murder had any relation to the Holocaust. Your comparison is very, very childish, and very, very unnecessary. It has no correlation to the Holocaust and/or Salem Witch trials at all, you were simply doing it for shock effect, not to point out any so-called 'concepts and ideas'.
    On this day of days, most epic and prideful, you were born 15 whole American years ago!
    Through the odds and by doing the impossible, you beat out hundreds of thousands of siblings in the great sperm race for the coveted egg.
    Probably via hax.
    Regardless! You won!
    So remember, whenever someone picks on you or calls you weak or small.
    Just remind them that you beat out a few hundred thousand other wimps.

    And the grand prize was not dying!

  8. #108
    #1Innovator xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX's Avatar
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    As an example of how weak Lelouch's good emotions were, let us agree that Lelouch loved Nunnally, Shirley,and Euphemia. Was his love for them strong enough to do them any good?
    Now now. Lelouch loved all of them greatly. That's why he mourns Euphy's death several times in the series. Nunnally, well, it's obvious he'd do anything for her. and Shirley, he mourns her death, tries to get revenge, and may have died to see her again.
    " I am death and sorrow." -Acheron



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  9. #109
    Senior Member The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Then you should hate Lelouch anyway, because he had plenty of emotions. But his good emotions were very weak and couldn't stop him from doing evil in obedience to his strong evil emotions.

    As an example of how weak Lelouch's good emotions were, let us agree that Lelouch loved Nunnally, Shirley,and Euphemia. Was his love for them strong enough to do them any good?

    I say that Lelouch's love for Nunnaly, Shirley, and Euphemia was about as strong as the love which the Frankish king Clothaire II had for his cousins Sigebert II and Corbo, or the love that his grandfather king Clothaire I had for his grand daughters, the children of his son Chram. My post #64 above, Lelouch's Love, shows how much good that love did its recipients, and what I think of Lelouch's love for Nunnally, Shirely, and Euphemia.
    Thing is he did not let anything get in his way,he was a mad genius also,and killed anybody without mercy or a thought.

  10. #110
    Cardinal of Eden Vital Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memento Mori View Post
    I hardly doubt Euphemia's massacre of hundreds of people, and then her own murder had any relation to the Holocaust. Your comparison is very, very childish, and very, very unnecessary. It has no correlation to the Holocaust and/or Salem Witch trials at all, you were simply doing it for shock effect, not to point out any so-called 'concepts and ideas'.
    Agreed.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  11. #111
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memento Mori View Post
    I hardly doubt Euphemia's massacre of hundreds of people, and then her own murder had any relation to the Holocaust. Your comparison is very, very childish, and very, very unnecessary. It has no correlation to the Holocaust and/or Salem Witch trials at all, you were simply doing it for shock effect, not to point out any so-called 'concepts and ideas'.
    Suppose that I wrote that: "Tamerlane massacred far fewer people at Baghdad than Hulagu Khan had a century earlier in 1258, because the population had not yet recovered from the earlier massacre and there were far fewer victims for Tamerlane to kill."?

    Here I mention and compare two of the one hundred most horrifying historical incidents in a single sentence. Do you think that anyone is likely to complain about that?

    Suppose I wrote that in the 1924 movie The Thief of Baghdad the Mongols start to massacre the people of Baghdad, which is obviously inspired by the historical massacre in 1258? Here I compare a fictional movie massacre with a historical massacre. Do you think that anyone is likely to complain about that?

    So what is it about the Holocaust that makes so many people so sensitive to it's mention? Why do you assume I mentioned it for shock effect? Why would I think that mentioning the Holocaust would have a shock effect? Is it because it is the worst of the worst in many people's opinion, and certainly not far from the worst of the worst? I do not see how a matter of degree can make writing about one example of a subject such as genocide or mass murder so controversial.

    And remember I did not compare Euphemia's fictional murder with the historical Holocaust. I merely said that Lelouch's motives for killing Euphemia, no matter what they might have been, could only have have been just as warped and twisted and senseless and illogical and irrational and disgusting as the motives of the Nazis and the witch hunters.

    Since I mentioned hundreds of thousands of victims of witchcraft trials,and you assumed that I mentioned the Salem Witch Trials, perhaps you should ask wolfgirl90 for a history lesson.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 01-26-2010 at 12:28 AM.

  12. #112
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Suppose I wrote that in the 1924 movie The Thief of Baghdad the Mongols start to massacre the people of Baghdad, which is obviously inspired by the historical massacre in 1258? Here I compare a fictional movie massacre with a historical massacre. Do you think that anyone is likely to complain about that?
    It might be controversial, but no one would really complain about it (that much) because the movie was "inspired" by the massacre. This happens in movies all the time.

    The problem with you is that merely comparing the concept of evil (or whatever the heck you were trying to do) doesn't really help when the two events are not comparable to each other. Euphemia's (FICTIONAL) death does not equal the Holocaust (no matter how much you try) nor does Lelouch's killing Euphemia (or any of his other actions) equal Hitler's ideals to systematically kill Jews (and other races) because of the superiority of the Aryan race (no matter how much you try). These events are not comparable to each other by ANY sense of the word and simply grouping them together because they are "concepts" of "evil" seriously calls into question your maturity level.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So what is it about the Holocaust that makes so many people so sensitive to it's mention? Why do you assume I mentioned it for shock effect? Why would I think that mentioning the Holocaust would have a shock effect? Is it because it is the worst of the worst in many people's opinion, and certainly not far from the worst of the worst? I do not see how a matter of degree can make writing about one example of a subject such as genocide or mass murder so controversial.
    Because you brought it up during a discussion about a CARTOON! What is it about the Holocaust that makes people so sensitive to its mention? Oh, I don't know, maybe its because it was the systematic killing of MILLIONS of Jews for no other real reason than to assure the superiority of the Aryan race, a race that had some very ambiguous qualifications? Maybe there are some people here who are Jewish and rather take offense to this event being compared to the death of a cartoon character (or to the actions of one). Maybe there are people like me who, while not Jewish, respect the seriousness of something like the Holocaust and are rather shocked and disgusted that a person would even bring that up during a discussion of the death of a (FICTIONAL) cartoon charater.

    And...hypocrite much? Question to you: how does showing the murder of a cartoon character (who by the way, was brought to life), a person that DOESN'T EXIST, become so controversial? You mention Euphemia's death at every turn, even in threads that do not call for it, so why it is her death so controversial for you?

    While you are criticizing us about being up in arms about the mention of something so heinous as the Holocaust or the Burning Times as a comparison to Euphemia's (fictional) death (that didn't happen in other Code Geass universes), I can equally critize you for being up in arms about the death of ONE cartoon character, who, as I have said many times before, is not even dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And remember I did not compare Euphemia's fictional murder with the historical Holocaust. I merely said that Lelouch's motives for killing Euphemia, no matter what they might have been, could only have have been just as warped and twisted and senseless and illogical and irrational and disgusting as the motives of the Nazis and the witch hunters.
    You said "Euphemia died for a reason" and THEN said "The millions of Jews who died in the holocaust [also] died for a reason"; because of this, one can only logically assume that you are making a comparison between Euphemia's death and the deaths of the Jews during the Holocaust. Like I said before, if you wanted to make a comparison between Lelouch and, say, Hitler, then should have said so.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Since I mentioned hundreds of thousands of victims of witchcraft trials,and you assumed that I mentioned the Salem Witch Trials, perhaps you should ask wolfgirl90 for a history lesson.
    And...what...EXACTLY...is that supposed mean? I honestly would like to know, what in the world is that supposed to mean? I can only HOPE that you are implying that since I didn't make the same asumption, I know what I am talking about. Otherwise, you have made a VERY insensitive comment at my expense...which honestly would not be the first time that you (or anyone else) has done that, but really, I would like to know what you meant.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So what is it about the Holocaust that makes so many people so sensitive to it's mention? Why do you assume I mentioned it for shock effect? Why would I think that mentioning the Holocaust would have a shock effect? Is it because it is the worst of the worst in many people's opinion, and certainly not far from the worst of the worst? I do not see how a matter of degree can make writing about one example of a subject such as genocide or mass murder so controversial.
    Well, of course, it couldn't POSSIBLY be that the Holocaust was a modern world history tragedy in REAL life where MILLIONS of people died, and MILLIONS lost loved ones because of religion, race, sexual orientation, or a disability.

    I'd love to see you try to compare the death of one fictional character to the Holocaust when discussing this with one of our forum leaders, Kaitou Ace, since he is Jewish, and then complain that he isn't seeing it in the right perspective or he's taking it out of context.

    And remember I did not compare Euphemia's fictional murder with the historical Holocaust. I merely said that Lelouch's motives for killing Euphemia, no matter what they might have been, could only have have been just as warped and twisted and senseless and illogical and irrational and disgusting as the motives of the Nazis and the witch hunters.
    Yes, you did. The minute you said the word 'Holocaust', it's immediately attributed to what you're discussing because one can only assume you're making a comparison. You are comparing the grand scale of the tragedy of the Holocaust to a fictional killing.

    You honestly have no idea how sick and twisted your logic is. Should I compare it to the Holocaust?
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  14. #114
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Now now. Lelouch loved all of them greatly. That's why he mourns Euphy's death several times in the series. Nunnally, well, it's obvious he'd do anything for her. and Shirley, he mourns her death, tries to get revenge, and may have died to see her again.
    I didn't say that Lelouch didn't love Nunnally, Shirley or Euphemia, I just said that his love for them was worthless to them. It did not prevent Lelouch from recklessly endangering their lives and even murdering Euphemia.

    Lelouch's love for Nunnaly, Shirley, and Euphemia was like Khan "Midnightien" Singh's love for his right hand man Joaquin in Star trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Unjustly blaming Kirk for the death of his wife which was really nobody's fault and Khan's fault as much as Kirk's, Khan sought vengeance. Several times Khan's faithful lieutenant Joaquin urged him to quit while he could, but Khan kept on until his stolen starship was smashed.

    On the bridge Khan held the wounded Joaquin, who said "Yours is the greatest intelligence" (apparently without the sarcasm I would have felt in that situation) and died. Having learned nothing, Khan ignored the possibility that he might still be able to save the lives of some of his devoted followers, told Joaquin's dead body: "I will avenge you!", and set the auto destruct to try to kill his enemies.

    Khan was much better at avenging the deaths of those he loved than at restricting his actions to those that would not kill his loved ones -- and so was Lelouch.

    I say that Shirley and Euphemia benefited about as much from Lelouch's real love for them as Joaquin did from Khan's love for him, and Nunnally was several times quite lucky not to share their fate.

    And I think that Nunnally, Shirley, and Euphemia benefited from Lelouch's real love for them about as much as Nancy benefited from Bill Sykes's real love for her in Oliver Twist.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 01-26-2010 at 10:53 PM.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I didn't say that Lelouch didn't love Nunnally, Shirley or Euphemia, I just said that his love for them was worthless to them. It did not prevent Lelouch from recklessly endangering their lives and even murdering Euphemia.

    Lelouch's love for Nunnaly, Shirley, and Euphemia was like Khan "Midnightien" Singh's love for his right hand man Joaquin in Star trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Unjustly blaming Kirk for the death of his wife which was really nobody's fault and Khan's fault as much as Kirk's, Khan sought vengeance. Several times Khan's faithful lieutenant Joaquin urged him to quit while he could, but Khan kept on until his stolen starship was smashed.

    On the bridge Khan held the wounded Joaquin, who said "Yours is the greatest intelligence" (apparently without the sarcasm I would have felt in that situation) and died. Having learned nothing, Khan ignored the possibility that he might still be able to save the lives of some of his devoted followers, told Joaquin's dead body: "I will avenge you!", and set the auto destruct to try to kill his enemies.

    Khan was much better at avenging the deaths of those he loved than at restricting his actions to those that would not kill his loved ones -- and so was Lelouch.

    I say that Shirley and Euphemia benefited about as much from Lelouch's real love for them as Joaquin did from Khan's love for him, and Nunnally was several times quite lucky not to share their fate.

    And I think that Nunnally, Shirley, and Euphemia benefited from Lelouch's real love for them about as much as Nancy benefited from Bill Sykes's real love for her in Oliver Twist.
    Um... To be quite I honest.... I have no clue who the heck you're comparing them too. So... Uh... Don't really comprehend.. Many apologies.
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  16. #116
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Khan was much better at avenging the deaths of those he loved than at restricting his actions to those that would not kill his loved ones -- and so was Lelouch.

    I say that Shirley and Euphemia benefited about as much from Lelouch's real love for them as Joaquin did from Khan's love for him, and Nunnally was several times quite lucky not to share their fate.

    And I think that Nunnally, Shirley, and Euphemia benefited from Lelouch's real love for them about as much as Nancy benefited from Bill Sykes's real love for her in Oliver Twist.
    What exactly are you getting at? This would be relevant if Lelouch was seriously out for revenge in the grand scheme of things, which he was not. Khan wanted revenge for being marooned on a planet for almost 20 years with no contact with from Kirk (which of course, lead to the death of his wife), even though Kirk was the one who proposed they go down there (Khan was seriously not going to listen to anything anyone had to say about the matter; he wanted to hurt Kirk and hurt him bad, not just simply "win"); I mean, the story is basically Moby Dick. Lelouch, however, while wanting revenge from his father, is not fighting Britannia simply for revenge. And while Lelouch may have had blind fits of rage, he, unlike Khan, never actually got any of his loved ones killed because of it (though he only has so many).

    Also, Bill Sykes never really loved Nancy (she was a prostitute and he hated and abused most people, even his dog) and probably only "regretted" killing her because he knew he might be caught. Nancy was the one (and really the only one) who believed that Sykes loved her and really only because she needed stability in her life, so much so that she was willing to put up with all of Sykes's abuse (read books, please).

    AND, Lelouch was not even RESPONSIBLE for Shirley's death, not even close. Shirley acted on her own when it came to following Lelouch and subsequently getting killed by Rolo; had she actually listened to him, she might have lived. However, Lelouch felt as if he should avenge her death because it was the Geass, through Rolo, that killed her. This is the reason why he went after the Geass Directorate; Lelouch believed it was Geass that ultimately killed Shirley. This also caused him to distance himself from other people close to him, like Kallen, who also loved him and who wouldn't be afraid to "follow him to the death" (again, an action by Lelouch that Khan never took).

    Of course, this is knowledge that you would have gained had you actually WATCHED R2, but yeah continue to ride on your moral high horse for a cartoon.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 01-27-2010 at 02:26 PM.
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  17. #117
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    response to post # 81

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    THE POINT proEuphie is that, while Euphemia's death was a shocking one (no one really disagrees with you on this part), she is still dead. There is not much to discuss when it comes to her death. Lelouch accidentally used the Geass on Euphemia. Euphemia goes around killing people. Lelouch kills Euphemia in order to perserve his orginal plan of using the anger of the Japanese people in order to further fuel his rebellion (this may sound cruel, but although Lelouch's killing of Euphemia stopped the massacre, that's not the reason why he killed her). That's basically it.
    In episode 22 Lelouch came to Euphemia with a plan to start an uprising and probably kill Euphemia. Then he gave up the plan. Then he accidentally gave Euphemia the geass command. After that his natural course of action was to call in the Black knights to save as many Japanese as possible and then at least try to preserve as much of the SAZ plan as possible, even if that ment merely capturing Euphemia instead of kiliing her.

    After Lelouch accepted the SAZ plan he no longer wanted to kill Euphie and he no longer wanted to lead a rebellion against Britannia. Thus even if the SAZ plan was ruined Lelouch had no reason to go back to original plan of leading a rebellion and killing Euphie. He had an infinite number of other possible future plans for his life to chose from. It was not inevitable that he would choose to resume his old plan of leading a rebellion and killing Euphie. So Why did he? Why?

    Lelouch's moment of making peace with Euphie and giving up his old plan for revenge seems to have been totally meaningless if he could revert back to his old plan of leading a rebellion and killing Euphemia so quickly, especially when he could have rescued the Japanese without going on to kill Euphie and lead a rebellion.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Are there other choices that Lelouch could have used? Yes. Would these other choices have worked? Who knows; its pure speculation. He COULD have saved her. He COULD have used her as a hostage. He COULD have done a lot of things. However, none of these things ultimately change the fact that Euphemia DIED and (in the anime) remains DEAD. If you want to keep focusing om these things instead of letting go of what happened then,...oh whatever, its your life and your thread; you do whatever you want (even if you are wasting both).
    You still have not realized that Lelouch needed Euphemia alive for his plans to work, as I have explained in many posts, and killed her anyway. And the question of whether a live or a dead Euphie was better for Lelouch and his plans is irrelevant anyway. Let me quote from my post # 62 above:

    [/quote]Anyway, it is wrong to kill someone you can easily capture alive in the effort to secure political or military gain for you and your cause. Let me quote from my post # 56 above:

    But it is wrong to even discuss the long term results of capturing or killing Euphemia. Lelouch should have thought about whether capturing or killing Euphemia would have been better for stopping the massacre in time to save as many Japanese lives as possible, and he should have thought about whether capturing her would be as fast, as easy, and as safe as killing her. And maybe he should have thought about whether she could be confined safely and realized that it would be no big deal to confine one more prisoner or mental patient, even one controlled by a geass command.

    But he should not have considered whether killing or capturing her would be better for his cause. Because if he decided that killing her would be better for his cause and killed for that reason, he would be guilty of murder. It is murder to deliberately kill someone you can capture alive easily merely because you think that it will increase the probability of success for your political cause.

    Consider King Richard III, one of English history's most hated villains because he allegedly ordered the murders of "the little princes in the tower" (King Edward V and Richard Duke of York). If Richard ordered their deaths he might have justified doing so in order to prevent their supporters from overthrowing him and killing him sometime in the future. He might have justified killing them because of the danger that his own young son might have been killed by them or their supporters.

    But Richard III had no proof that sparing the princes would cause the results that he feared, or that killing them would prevent those results. In fact Richard III's young son died of natural causes the year after the princes were last seen alive, and Richard III was killed the year after that by the forces of Henry Tudor, who was not a supporter of the princes but claimed the throne on the rival, Lancastrian, side. Of course Henry Tudor offered a consolation to the Yorkist supporters by promising to marry Elizabeth Plantagenet, the eldest sister of the two princes (who were obviously considered dead by that time).

    Richard III could have defeated Henry's attempt to gain support from the Yorkists by producing the two princes to prove that they were still alive - if they were still alive and hadn't been murdered by Richard III, or by the Duke of Buckingham, or by any other suspect. If he could have done so he could have prevented some Yorkist defections to Henry's side -- maybe enough to save his life and his cause at the Battle of Bosworth. If Richard III killed the two princes in the hope of gain for his cause he did not gain very much.

    So not only was killing the two princes a terrible, horrible murder which could never be justified by political considerations, but it is also impossible to predict the results of any political action with certainty. Thus there is no reason to do anything which seems evil, even if you think that you will gain from it. Because you can never calculate and predict the results of political moves with any certainty. You might gain and you might lose from any good or evil thing that you do. therefore there is no reason to do evil in the hope of gaining from it.

    And so there is no reason to try to justify Lelouch's murder of Euphemia by claiming that his cause would have benefited from it, since such justifications are ethically evil and impossible to prove with certainty.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    I mean, there are two seperate Code Geass mangas that I have told you about in which Euphemia is STILL ALIVE, in yet you choose to ignore these (Is seeing her alive in the anime the only thing that matters?) and focus on her death in the anime which, as I have pointed out to you, was a predictable action on Bandai's part and really not all that surprising to those that have watched Bandai anime for years and know what to expect from them (HELLO?! The Great Martyr Euphemia? Yeah, that was no coincidence) and really not all that shocking to those who have seen much, MUCH worse in other anime.
    I only watched Code Geass because it was on television for free. I am not in the habit of buying manga. But anyway, alternate universe Euphemia's in manga are not exactly the same person as the Euphemia in the anime.

    Image that a person X you knew was born in 1990 and died in 2002. If you went to an alternate universe which branched off from yours in the year 1996, the alternate version of person X would have only half of the memories of the person X that you knew and they would be less than a third of his memories. He would be partially the person X you knew but not entirely. If you visited an alternate unvierse which branched off from yours in 2002 a month before person X died in your universe, the person X in the alternate universe would be much closer to the person X that you knew but would still not be totally identical. Thus the survival of person X in those universes would not be as good as person X of your universe coming back to life.

    I responded to your statement that anime fans have seen much much worse than Euphemia's death in other anime. I responded to it long before you wrote post # 81, in my post # 62, a response to your post # 23:

    I have watched some of them before I watched Code geass. Your selections are rather puzzling.

    How could the death of Maes Hughes be the saddest death in Full Metal Alchemist? Wasn't he about three to six times the age of Nina Tucker? How can the death of someone be sadder than the death of another person who is only a small fraction of his age?

    The age of someone who dies is the main thing which makes one death sadder than another. If everyone had exactly the same life expectancy knowing the ages of two characters at death you could calculate how much life each had lost by dying prematurely. As it it you can calculate the relative sadness of deaths from how long or short a life someone lived, though the exact formula is not obvious.

    I think that a correct formula would give a much higher numerical value to years of childhood than to adult years, so that living to be fifty might be only 0.8333 times as good as living to be sixty, but living to be only five might be only about 0.50 times as good as living to be six, and much less than 0.0833 times as good as living to be sixty, for example.

    I was starting to get to sort of kind of like Scar later in the series and then I remembered that he had murdered Nina for no good reason and no evil reason except his religious prejudices against human alchemy, which of course were just as senseless and evil as burning Wiccans at the stake. And Nina hadn't even practiced human alchemy but was merely the subject of it! Even the villains in that series had better motives for their evil murders.

    and then you write that Hughes's daughter's reaction at he funeral has to be one of the saddest things ever. Dying was infinitely evil and sad for Hughes. All the sorrow and sadness of all of Hughes's friends and relatives at his death will be large but finite in amount. Thus all of the survivor's grief combined, and not just his daughter's reaction at the funeral, is less than a thousandth as sad as Hughes's death, leas than a millionth as sad as his death, less than a billionth as sad as his death, etc. etc.

    Even if Hughes was a good as Euphemia he was at least two times as old as she was and so his death would be at most less than fifty percent as sad as hers was. Of curse Nina's death may have been sadder than Euphemia's due to Nina being much younger, but it was not as outrageous as Euphemia's since the protagonist of Fullmetal Alchemist did not senselessly and needlessly kill Nina.

    How can you consider the death of Wormwood, I mean Wolfwood, in Trigun to be the saddest death in the series just because he told God that he couldn't die right before he did die? Wouldn't you expect that many of the nameless extras who are mowed down by the hundreds, the thousands, and the millions in various animes were mortally wounded and remained conscious up to their deaths? And wouldn't a small percentage of them beg God not to let them die, claiming that they couldn't die now, when they had so much do do, right before they died? In Code Geass, for example, thousands of the fatally injured residents of Tokyo and Pendragon, men, women, and children, probably died saying that.

    Wouldn't the death of Zazie the Beast be the saddest death in Trigun since he was the youngest character I remember dying? And don't say that Zazie was an evil child while Wolfwood was a good man, as though that was enough to compensate for the difference in their ages. It would not be true anyway. After all, Wolfwood and Zazie both worked for the Gung Ho guns until Wolfwood was charmed by Vash's personality and decided to help him. Woolfwood was as evil as Zazie until very recently and thus was only very slightly reformed reformed by the time of his death.

    So I say that the death of an evil child is much sadder than the death of an evil man several times his age, even if that evil man has started to reform and become slightly less evil.

    And I remind you that Wolfwood did not have to become a gunslinger to raise money for his orphanage. With his talents he should have been able to become a sheriff in a frontier town, a bounty hunter, or operate a protection racket, any of which would have been less evil than being a Gung Ho Gun.

    And I remind you that Wolfwood was a fantastically good gunslinger, and he killed his former comrade Zazie the Beast by shooting him fatally at relatively close range when he should have been able to simply shoot him in the arm to disable him, and was criticized by Vash for shooting to kill.

    In Evangelion you don't even see the death of Shinji's victim as the sad thing but how it affected Shinji as the sad thing. I tell you that dying is infinitely evil and sad for the person who dies, while the sadness that other people feel for the death is infinitely less of a disaster for them.

    And Shinji did not have to kill the angel in human form he held in his hand. I think that at that moment he had an chance to do some really serious negotiating for the Human race with the only angel who had ever been known to be friendly to a Human.

    I don't remember anybody telling Shinji that if he didn't kill his prisoner within ten seconds he would certainly change into angel form and destroy everything from inside. I don't remember Shinji desperately asking if there was any prison strong enough to hold even a rampaging angel.

    I haven't seen Samurai X, but I believe that Kenshin was an adult and therefore his death would have been less sad than Euphemia's. And of course it would have been much less shocking and outrageous than Euphemia's death. Who can you blame for him getting sick and dying? God, or evolution? Somehow how that is not the same thing as getting angry at a mortal character who treacherously stabbed or shot a good person.

    I have only read about Grave of the Fireflies. I was going to say that there was nobody to get angry at in Grave of The Fireflies, and then I remembered that the deaths of many real children who were more or less analogous to those in that movie were the results of mass murderous attacks committed by an organization which is more or less the ancestor of the organization that you work in.

    If you consider the deaths of the two children in Grave of the fireflies to be very sad and shocking, perhaps you might decide to try to have some of the surviving men who took part in mass murderous attacks on Japan in 1945 tried for war crimes? Or at the least you could suggest a plan to have the entire US Air Force officially abolished and replaced ten minutes later with a entirely new organization, the Air Force of the United States, for example, so that none of the units which participated in mass murder will ever have units descended from them in service.

    I haven't seen Saikano. I notice you seem to think that a lot of the deaths are more shocking because they are people close to the protagonist.

    But the sadness, shock, and evilness of a death, real or fictional, is due almost entirely to the nature of the person who died. Everyone should feel exactly the same amount for sorrow, the correct amount based on the nature of that person, for the death a person. Feeling more or less less sorrow due to the degree of your relationship to that person may be an inevitable part of human nature but it is also a big character flaw which everyone should recognize and try to compensate for as well as they can. And the same for the deaths of fictional characters.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 02-06-2010 at 08:47 PM.

  18. #118
    #1Innovator xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX's Avatar
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    How could the death of Maes Hughes be the saddest death in Full Metal Alchemist? Wasn't he about three to six times the age of Nina Tucker? How can the death of someone be sadder than the death of another person who is only a small fraction of his age?


    Nina's death wasn't sad. It was to quick to be sad, she was only in like two episodes. I still disagree with the age thing. Not to mention, Hughes left a wife and child behind.

    I was starting to get to sort of kind of like Scar later in the series and then I remembered that he had murdered Nina for no good reason and no evil reason except his religious prejudices against human alchemy, which of course were just as senseless and evil as burning Wiccans at the stake. And Nina hadn't even practiced human alchemy but was merely the subject of it! Even the villains in that series had better motives for their evil murders.
    Um. Exact quote...
    "You poor thing. You're a sin against nature and your body is in so much pain." Then talking about sending them back to God. He killed her out of mercy.

    Even if Hughes was a good as Euphemia he was at least two times as old as she was and so his death would be at most less than fifty percent as sad as hers was. Of curse Nina's death may have been sadder than Euphemia's due to Nina being much younger, but it was not as outrageous as Euphemia's since the protagonist of Fullmetal Alchemist did not senselessly and needlessly kill Nina.


    The age does not make their life worth more. Nina's death was in no way sadder than Euphy's and wasn't meant to be.
    Nina was in 2 episodes
    Euphy was in about 12.

    I don't understand how you can value someone's life more is they're younger. No one's life is worth more than another EVER. As long as it's alive and has free will. That's right. ALIVE. If it's alive and has a will of it's own, it deserves to live. No matter what age, no matter what race, no matter what religion.
    SPOILERS
    On Gundam 00,
     
    Tieira Erde died an unfair and overly brutal death. Being repeatably shot before finally getting hit in the head. He took over Veda and was never allowed to be human again. Even though he was, God knows how old, the Innovators didn't age quickly, he died much more brutally than Euphy. He did bad stuff, and was the bad one in Celestial Being, but he didn't deserve to go through that. Was his life worth less than Setsuna's just because Setsuna was only 20?




    Would you say your mother's life is worth less than my cousin(who's eight)?

    Sorry, I don't usually do this, but, this whole "value of life" thing is very upsetting to me.


    " I am death and sorrow." -Acheron



    Take the quizz here!
    http://quizilla.teennick.com/quizzes...eister-are-you

  19. #119
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    He had an infinite number of other possible future plans for his life to chose from. It was not inevitable that he would choose to resume his old plan of leading a rebellion and killing Euphie. So Why did he? Why?
    Whether his decision was wrong or not really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things: Euphemia still died. As I have said to you before, he had a few seconds to think of the best way to end the massacre and gain the best advantage with the Japanese people (he may be a brilliant thinker, but not a perfect one). Killing Euphemia accomplishes both. Was it really the BEST option he could have taken? Who knows, and this can honestly be debated until doomsday. Lelouch could have done a lot of things that could have ended with Euphemia being alive in the anime, but he didn't (take it up with Bandai if you hate it so much). Lelouch made the best choice according to him; whether he actually DID can be up for (an endless) discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    It is murder to deliberately kill someone you can capture alive easily merely because you think that it will increase the probability of success for your political cause.
    From a moral stand point, you might be right. LEGALLY, killing someone under that circumstance is NOT murder and I (and others) have told you this many times. Hell, I am trained to take such action against a person (I have told you this as well).
    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Because you can never calculate and predict the results of political moves with any certainty. You might gain and you might lose from any good or evil thing that you do. therefore there is no reason to do evil in the hope of gaining from it.
    In that case, there is no point in really doing anything. If one can't predict the political circumstances of any good OR evil thing that one does, why do you automatically say one shouldn't do anything evil? How do know what the outcome might be? Even being "good" might not do a single thing. Even if Richard III worked out his circumstances with negotiations, if his children STILL died, does that mean that he made the right decision, even if he knew that the "evil" option would have worked as well? If Lelouch kept Euphemia alive without actually knowing what would happen to her (including: being imprisoned for the rest of her life, institutionalized or killed), does that mean that he made the right decision simply because she's alive?
    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And so there is no reason to try to justify Lelouch's murder of Euphemia by claiming that his cause would have benefited from it, since such justifications are ethically evil and impossible to prove with certainty.
    But he DID benefit from Euphemia's murder. There is no denying that. Killing her allowed him to not only gain the trust of the Japanese people, but allowed him to rally them together and fight against Britannia. Evil or not, his plan worked and there really isn't anything that you say that would prove otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But anyway, alternate universe Euphemia's in manga are not exactly the same person as the Euphemia in the anime.
    Well, that's mostly because you can't get a grip, but I digress. Euphemia is basically the same character in everything that she has been in, if not a much more politically active and stronger person. If you can't see the same character when others can...well, that's your problem, honestly.

    In Nightmare of Nunnally, Euphemia NEVER DIED. In fact,
     
    Euphemia becomes the Empress of Britannia, due the support of the Imperial Senate and Schneizal. She eventually leads the Britannian Army against Charles and manages to free ALL the numbered areas and tries to maintain peace between the countries
    .

    If you, OF ALL PEOPLE, can not enjoy this, then you have a serious, SERIOUS problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    How could the death of Maes Hughes be the saddest death in Full Metal Alchemist?
    Maes Hughes was a character that we had grown to love, cherish and respect. He wasn't a character that most people expected to die. However, not only was Hughes murdered, but he was murdered by a person who took the form of HIS WIFE. Yes, the last thing that man saw was his wife holding a gun. Nina Tucker on the other hand, while the small child, died during her second episode; we barely knew her.
    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    As it it you can calculate the relative sadness of deaths from how long or short a life someone lived, though the exact formula is not obvious.
    The very fact that you are even using a "formula" to calculate the relative "sadness" of someone's death (fictional or not) is just short of a little sick.
    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I was starting to get to sort of kind of like Scar later in the series and then I remembered that he had murdered Nina for no good reason and no evil reason except his religious prejudices against human alchemy, which of course were just as senseless and evil as burning Wiccans at the stake.
    Unlike his other killings, Scar actually killed Nina out of kindness and mercy. He knew that Nina had become a monster and was in agonizing pain as a chimera, so he killed her (although, even knowing this, I bet you have a problem with that).

    Also, just as note, no Wiccans were ever burned at the stake, as they didn't even EXIST during the Burning Times (hell, they didn't exist until about 60 years ago); you mean "Witches". And again, I can only wonder why you keep referencing the Burning Times to me (believe me, I already know); I can't help but think there is a little underhandedness going on.
    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    How can you consider the death of Wormwood, I mean Wolfwood, in Trigun to be the saddest death in the series just because he told God that he couldn't die right before he did die?
    Because Wolfwood had planned to do many things that would help people. He wanted to go on to help all those people that he knew need the help of someone, anyone. Oh and Milly; lets not forget her.
    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Wouldn't the death of Zazie the Beast be the saddest death in Trigun since he was the youngest character I remember dying? And don't say that Zazie was an evil child while Wolfwood was a good man, as though that was enough to compensate for the difference in their ages.
    Why not? You seem to imply that all the time. Why does Zazie being a "kid" automatically release him from what he did? Why does Wolfwood's death suddenly become "unimportant" because of his age?

    Also (again you need to pay attention), Zazie the Beast is not even a kid, or even human for that matter; he is a collection of insects, an alien. Are you sad about his death now?
    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    If you consider the deaths of the two children in Grave of the fireflies to be very sad and shocking, perhaps you might decide to try to have some of the surviving men who took part in mass murderous attacks on Japan in 1945 tried for war crimes?
    The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not (and therefore remain not) war crimes (its called post facto; we can't charge people for actions in the past that were not illegal then but are now; its in the US Constitution). Devestating? Yes. Terrible? Yes. However, not much can be done about it today.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I haven't seen Saikano. I notice you seem to think that a lot of the deaths are more shocking because they are people close to the protagonist.
    Wrong again. Saikano was sad because
     
    the protagonist not only suffers serious physical and psycological pain for the ENTIRE SERIES, but dies at the end of it all
    . Of course, doesn't Euphemia's death become sadder because of the people "around" her, including people like you?
    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Feeling more or less less sorrow due to the degree of your relationship to that person may be an inevitable part of human nature but it is also a big character flaw which everyone should recognize and try to compensate for as well as they can.
    What do you mean by "compensate"? If by compensate, you mean feel serious and unrelenting sorrow for the death of a person that isn't real, barely existed and isn't even really dead, that's not compensation, that's some form of mental disorder. I would hate for you to encounter a GIF of Lelouch shotting Euphemia, since I suspect that you might have a conniption fit (if you haven't already). Just because I do not feel sadness in every other event (serious of not) that happens on the planet does not mean that I have to "compensate" by expressing serious sadness, sorrow and anger for freaking cartoons.

    While I have felt sad seeing the deaths of fictional characters, I have always gotten over them, to the point where it is merely an afterthought. Death of Maes Hughes? Got over it after the funeral. Kenshin's death? It was last episode; I just changed the channel. Saikano? Popped in a new DVD. Euphemia's death? Well, I already knew she was going to die. No matter how "sad" or "shocking" the death was, even if it was based on something that happened in real life, I (and most people) got over it.

    The problem with you (and I don't even think that you actually act this way or at least, I hope not) is that you seem to be adamant in treating real-life and fictional events (specifically deaths), regardless of what they may be, as equal and inseparable things. Not just comparable, but equal and inseparable; the "concept" of murder apparently enough for you. For example, Lelouch's fictional killing of Euphemia is apparently equal to a real murder, or rather should treated as such, hence your apparent (and immature) outrage and your inability to let it go like a normal person. In fact, you find someone like me, who doesn't care about Euphemia (again, a cartoon character who isn't dead), as some sort of heartless monster (or someone with "latent violent tendencies").
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  20. #120
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    What exactly are you getting at? This would be relevant if Lelouch was seriously out for revenge in the grand scheme of things, which he was not. Khan wanted revenge for being marooned on a planet for almost 20 years with no contact with from Kirk (which of course, lead to the death of his wife), even though Kirk was the one who proposed they go down there (Khan was seriously not going to listen to anything anyone had to say about the matter; he wanted to hurt Kirk and hurt him bad, not just simply "win"); I mean, the story is basically Moby Dick. Lelouch, however, while wanting revenge from his father, is not fighting Britannia simply for revenge. And while Lelouch may have had blind fits of rage, he, unlike Khan, never actually got any of his loved ones killed because of it (though he only has so many).
    Lelouch not only got Euphemia killed, he actually killed her personally when even the bloodthirsty Kallen, seeing how defenseless she was and how easy it was to capture her, asked if Zero was going to capture her. And I don't know if Lelouch killed her in a blind fit of rage, such as he felt when hearing her speech at the end of episode 21, but he certainly was not thinking rationally when he killed her since he and his cause had nothing to gain and a lot to lose from killing her as I have pointed out several times.

    I think that Lelouch subconsciously was out for revenge on the whole world for making him suffer in childhood. I don't believe that any rational plans he may have had were the real reasons for his actions, however much he may have told himself he was acting rationally. I think that his subconscious rage drove him to kill and destroy and fight and plot and he only rationalized his actions in his mind to convince himself that the was acting rationally to achieve a well-thought out goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Also, Bill Sykes never really loved Nancy (she was a prostitute and he hated and abused most people, even his dog) and probably only "regretted" killing her because he knew he might be caught. Nancy was the one (and really the only one) who believed that Sykes loved her and really only because she needed stability in her life, so much so that she was willing to put up with all of Sykes's abuse (read books, please).
    That is your opinion on a matter which is debated by Dickens fans. I did read Oliver Twist and as I remember, Bill Sikes/Sykes wandered aimlessly through the night after killing Nancy, seeing only her eyes and not noticing where he went. He witnessed a fire at Hatfield, about eighteen miles as the crow flies from London bridge, I think, and then wandered back to central London with no plan. That seems like a man who murders someone he loves in a fit of anger and then is consumed by guilt and sorrow.

    If Bill Sikes didn't love Nancy enough to feel a lot of guilt when he killed her, if he was only worried about getting caught, he would have been able to think straight and control his actions and immediately begin to plan his escape and do what it took to escape, such as collecting as much money as he could and leaving the country under an assumed name, for example, instead of wandering for forty miles or so without seeing where he went.

    Thus I believe that Bill Sikes loved Nancy and it didn't do her much good since it didn't stop him from murdering her.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    AND, Lelouch was not even RESPONSIBLE for Shirley's death, not even close. Shirley acted on her own when it came to following Lelouch and subsequently getting killed by Rolo; had she actually listened to him, she might have lived. However, Lelouch felt as if he should avenge her death because it was the Geass, through Rolo, that killed her. This is the reason why he went after the Geass Directorate; Lelouch believed it was Geass that ultimately killed Shirley. This also caused him to distance himself from other people close to him, like Kallen, who also loved him and who wouldn't be afraid to "follow him to the death" (again, an action by Lelouch that Khan never took).
    Rollo killed Shirley out of loyalty to Lelouch, I read. Rollo became loyal to Lelouch while acting as his brother for a year, I read. Rollo was assigned to act as Lelouch's brother as part of the incredibly implausible arrangements after the failure of the Black Rebellion, I read. The Black Rebellion would not have failed if Lelouch had not started it. Thus Lelouch, who did not want Shirley killed, started the chain of events which resulted in her being killed. Lelouch was partially responsible for Shirley's death.

    Just as Khan, who did not want his wife Marla McGivers killed by unknown alien life forms, chose to be exiled with her on a dangerous world instead of going to a safe Federation rehabilitation colony and eventually being released to peacefully contribute to society, and thus started the chain of events which resulted her being killed by unknown alien life forms.

    Just as Khan, who did not want Joaquin and his other followers blasted by phasers and photon torpedoes, started the chain of events which resulted in Joaquin and his other followers being blasted by phasers and photon torpedoes. Khan was partially responsible for the deaths of Joaquin and his other followers.

    Incidentally, I believe that Khan's followers in Wrath of Khan were probably mostly the children of his followers in "Space seed" (who probably had mostly died protecting their children) and were born after the exile of their parents and were thus mostly fourteen or younger, though looking a lot older due to being rapidly-growing supermen. Which make's Khan reckless endangerment of their lives even worse.

    Lelouch and Khan both risked the lives of their loved ones when they had alternate courses of events which were not as dangerous for their loved ones. Thus Lelouch and Khan were at least partially responsible for the deaths of their loved ones.

    Remember that when Kallen heard that Ashford Academy was going to be the Black knight HQ in Toyko she hoped that the student council members would be able to get away safely, despite knowing them for only a few weeks or months. But Lelouch was shown thinking that Nunnally would be safe with the Black Knights guarding Ashford. Lelouch did not even think about the safety of Rivalez, Milly, or even Shirley.

    Going after the geass directorate, instead of Rollo who had actually killed Shirley, was like wiping out the entire population of the town which manufactured the gun used to kill a loved one while continuing to associate on friendly terms with the person who actually killed her.

    And how could the geass directorate massacre reduce the number of geass users who would be alive in 100 years, or 1,000 years, or 10,000 years, or 1,000,000 years? If geass givers are immortal and invulnerable until they pass their code to a geass user who becomes a new geass giver, the future numbers of geass users depend mostly on the unpredictable policies of future geass givers. How could the geass directorate massacre be considered a way to reduce the future role of geass?

    The love of Lelouch and Khan for their loved ones was not strong enough to keep them from taking actions which recklessly endangered those loved ones, but it was strong enough to make them take bloody revenge, often on many innocent people, when their loved ones finally met their predictable fates. Just the opposite of what a good love should be like.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Of course, this is knowledge that you would have gained had you actually WATCHED R2, but yeah continue to ride on your moral high horse for a cartoon.
    So are all the statements about events in R2 which I made in the above section of text accurate? If you can not dispute any of them then I see no disadvantage in not having seen R2.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 02-06-2010 at 09:57 PM.

  21. #121
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    So are all the statements about events in R2 which I made in the above section of text accurate? If you can not dispute any of them then I see no disadvantage in not having seen R2.
    They are wrong, however I'll dispute them later.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  22. #122
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So are all the statements about events in R2 which I made in the above section of text accurate?
    No, not really. R2 explained most (if not all) of Lelouch's actions from the first and second seasons. The vast majority of the arguments that you have made (including the ones in your last post) can easily be disputed with simple facts from R2, facts that most people know.

    Take this statement for example...

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Rollo killed Shirley out of loyalty to Lelouch, I read. Rollo became loyal to Lelouch while acting as his brother for a year, I read. Rollo was assigned to act as Lelouch's brother as part of the incredibly implausible arrangements after the failure of the Black Rebellion, I read. The Black Rebellion would not have failed if Lelouch had not started it. Thus Lelouch, who did not want Shirley killed, started the chain of events which resulted in her being killed. Lelouch was partially responsible for Shirley's death.
    Yeah, your "reading" is quite off. Associating the Black Rebellion with Shirley's death simply because Lelouch "started it" is reaching quite a bit (in that case, Jeremiah Gottwald is also guilty of Shirley's death since if he hadn't restored her memories in the first place, she wouldn't have gone after Lelouch). Rolo was assigned to act as Lelouch's brother under the Britannian Secret Intelligence Service; he was a spy. Lelouch had has memory erased and changed by Charles and Rolo was supposed to spy on Lelouch in case he got his memory back, at which point, Rolo was supposed to kill him. However, Rolo ultimately came to believe that Lelouch actually was his brother, since Lelouch was really the only person to treat him like a human being. Because of this, he wanted Lelouch to himself.

    Shirley, acting AGAINST Lelouch's suggestions, wanted to help him and followed him. When Rolo found her, she explained that she got her memories back (after having them erased for the second time) and also wanted to help Lelouch so that he could get back together with Nunnally. Rolo was threatened by this and decided to use his Geass to kill her.

    If you want to blame Lelouch for the independent actions of two separate people, go right on ahead if it makes you feel better.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Going after the geass directorate, instead of Rollo who had actually killed Shirley, was like wiping out the entire population of the town which manufactured the gun used to kill a loved one while continuing to associate on friendly terms with the person who actually killed her.
    Who the hell said that Lelouch was on friendly terms with Rolo after he killed Shirley? This may have been something you missed (because you didn't actually see it) but Lelouch decided that he wanted to kill Rolo ALONG WITH the Geass Directorate right from the get-go. He wasn't going to let Rolo get away with his lie and intended to get rid of him and the Directorate at the same time by rigging a bomb on Rolo's Vincent. However, that part of the plan fails when Cornelia intercepts them. Lelouch tries again at the battle of Tokyo but again fails. Lelouch then yells at Rolo and admits to him that he tried to kill him repeatedly, so I do not know what "friendly terms" you are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And how could the geass directorate massacre reduce the number of geass users who would be alive in 100 years, or 1,000 years, or 10,000 years, or 1,000,000 years? If geass givers are immortal and invulnerable until they pass their code to a geass user who becomes a new geass giver, the future numbers of geass users depend mostly on the unpredictable policies of future geass givers. How could the geass directorate massacre be considered a way to reduce the future role of geass?
    Okay, I do not know what you are thinking, but Geass "users" do not live for hundreds or thousands of years. They live and die like any human, hence the reason why they where able to die during the massacre (and why Lelouch ultimately died). As for the Geass "givers", we only know about two, C.C and V.V, and C.C was no longer involved with the Directorate (having left after Marianne died), living just V.V who was only in charge of the Directorate itself and assigning Geass powers to other people, like Rolo and Jeremiah.

    Since V.V of course got the Code from his Geass "giver" and since he died after having his Code taken away by Charles who ALSO died, the ONLY person who would be able to pass the Geass on would be C.C. And since she would only be able to pass her Code once (and since she would be the ONLY person to able to pass on a Code in the first place), the number of Geass "givers" is essentially limited to one (and since she already got her wish, she probably won't pass it on again).

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And I don't know if Lelouch killed her in a blind fit of rage, such as he felt when hearing her speech at the end of episode 21, but he certainly was not thinking rationally when he killed her since he and his cause had nothing to gain and a lot to lose from killing her as I have pointed out several times.
    You may have pointed this out several times but you were also wrong several times including now. It really doesn't matter whether or not Lelouch made the "right" decision when he killed Euphemia (it doesn't change what ultimately happened to her), however, there is no disputing the fact that he DID benefit from her death and that his plan FREAKING WORKED! When he killed her, his planned worked and the Japanese rallied behind him. Now, the Rebellion fell apart after Lelouch ran off to find out about Nunnally, however, that does not change the fact that Lelouch's plan to get the Japanese to rally behind him by killing Euphemia ultimately worked and there really is no disputing this fact; the Black Knights didn't lose a damn thing when Lelouch killed Euphemia.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I think that Lelouch subconsciously was out for revenge on the whole world for making him suffer in childhood. I don't believe that any rational plans he may have had were the real reasons for his actions, however much he may have told himself he was acting rationally. I think that his subconscious rage drove him to kill and destroy and fight and plot and he only rationalized his actions in his mind to convince himself that the was acting rationally to achieve a well-thought out goal.
    In that case, Lelouch would have been out for ALL the Britannians involved in the massacre, not just Euphemia. Amazing that in his "blind fit of rage", he explained his plan (and ignored everyone else), got of his Knightmare, had a conversation with his half-sister, killed her, and basically went on with the rest of his plan.

    Considering the fact that Lelouch was upset before AND after Euphemia died, saying that he killed her in a fit of rage is pushing it; actually, its not just pushing it, its a flat out lie. If this is the way that YOU want to rationalize it, go ahead and be my guest but, as I have said before, this particular event in Code Geass is really not all that complicated to grasp. Of ALL the complex things that happened in this series, Euphemia's death is not one of them; its pretty cut and dry, so if you can't wrap your mind around this, you are really the one who can't.

    Now, don't construe this as me "approving" of what Lelouch did. Again, I am merely explaining to you why Lelouch did what he did. Whether you agree with or not is really up to you, but your disagreeing with it does not ultimately change the events of the story. If you seriously have a problem with the way things turned out with Euphemia, take it up Sunrise, though they might politely point out to you that they let Euphemia live in Nightmare of Nunnally, having turned her into a major character
     
    who succeeded in the creation of the SAZ and became the 99th Empress of the Holy Britannian Empire
    and will tell you give it a rest (again, if you do not want to read Nightmare of Nunnally, despite your "love" of Euphemia, then that is your problem).
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 02-06-2010 at 03:05 PM.
    This is my war face.

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  23. #123
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    [/b]
    Nina's death wasn't sad. It was to quick to be sad, she was only in like two episodes. I still disagree with the age thing. Not to mention, Hughes left a wife and child behind.
    You mean that it wasn't sad to you. When I write that Nina's death was sadder than Hughes's I don't mean that it was sadder for the audience. I mean that any omniscient being who knew all the facts about both deaths would consider Nina's death to be sadder than Hughes's. I believe that people should try to compensate for all their emotional biases by trying to look at everything from the viewpoint of an omniscient observer.

    The fact that Spock in Star Trek is one of my favorite fictional characters does not make me consider Spock's death in Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan any sadder than the death of the briefly seen Peter Preston (who was portrayed by eighteen-year-old Ike Eisenmann but was described as fourteen in the script and the novelization). Nor do I consider the death''s of Khan's followers who I suspect were much younger than they looked (see my post # 120 above) any less sad than Spock's. So I am not happy that Spock was the only one brought back to life in an incredibly implausible way and once wrote a story in which all the others came back to life in much more plausible ways.

    I believe that the differences in relative happiness or unhappiness in different types of life experiences which most people consider to be very important are infinitely small compared to how much happier it is to be alive than to be dead. Everyone is infinitely happier when alive than when dead, no matter how unhappy a living person may be due to suffering of various types.

    I believe that being killed was infinitely evil and sad for Hughes and for Nina. The emotional, and financial, etc. loss that Hughes's wife and child experienced as a result of his death was great but it was infinitely small compared to the loss that Hughes and Nina experienced by dying. Thus it added extremely little to the sadness of Hughe's death as compared to the sadness of Nina's death.

    There are about 31,000,000 seconds in a year. Assume there are exactly 31,000,000.. Assume that Character A and Character B are born in the exact same millisecond. Character A lives exactly one hundred years or 3,100,000,000 seconds and Character B lives for exactly one second more after Character A dies.

    During the exactly 3,100,000,000 seconds that Character A and Character B are both alive, one or the other may have a lot more total happiness than the other one does. But during the one second that Character B is alive and Character A is dead, Character B will be infiinitely happier than Character A. Thus the extra happiness which Character B experiences in that one second will be finitely larger than any finite amount that Character A could have been happier than character B in the previous hundred years.

    Thus character B has an infinitely happier life than character A, and Character A's death is infinitely sadder than Character B's death.

    Since Hughes lived twenty or thirty years longer than Nina, Hughes's life was infinitely happier than Nina's and Nina's death was infinitely sadder than Hughes's death.

    [/COLOR]
    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    [/b]Um. Exact quote...
    "You poor thing. You're a sin against nature and your body is in so much pain." Then talking about sending them back to God. He killed her out of mercy.
    I believe that Nina was infinitely happier and better off as a Chimera, not matter how much pain she may have felt, than she was dead. I can't believe that Scar really killed her more out of mercy than out of hatred of alchemy.

    If Scar was a good person he would have kidnapped several State Alchemists and sent a message that he was holding them hostage and offered to stop killing State Alchemists and let them continue to defile the universe by existing if the State financed a project to turn Nina back to a Human again and succeeded. No matter how skilled Tucker was, if he was worked alone to turn Nina into a Chimera a team of State Alchemists with more resources could have quickly found a way to reverse the process. And of course, as soon as the State started some new evil project Scar could use that as an excuse to start killing State Alchemists again until he was killed or the State agree to stop that evil project.

    If Nina was turned into a Chimera and turned back into a Human she would not have suffered any more than the protagonist of H.P. Lovecraft's The Shadow out of Time. I don't think that he was better off dead. And the experience which was so troubling to him was one which some members of the Great Race volunteered to experience.



    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    [/b]The age does not make their life worth more. Nina's death was in no way sadder than Euphy's and wasn't meant to be.
    Nina was in 2 episodes
    Euphy was in about 12.

    I believe that every second and every year of any person's life is infinitely precious and valuable to him, and equal in worth to any second or year of any other person's life. Thus someone who lives longer has a much happier life than someone who dies younger. Thus it is sadder to die younger than to die older.

    In real life, you would not think that the death of a fomous celebrity that you knew a lot about would be any sadder to an omniscient observer than the death of some unknown person you didn't know on the other side of the world. You may find that the death of a character you have seen a lot of is sadder to you personally than the death of a character you have not seen very much of, but I can not help measuring their relative objective sadness as seen by an omniscient observer.


    [/COLOR]
    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    [/b]I don't understand how you can value someone's life more is they're younger. No one's life is worth more than another EVER. As long as it's alive and has free will. That's right. ALIVE. If it's alive and has a will of it's own, it deserves to live. No matter what age, no matter what race, no matter what religion.
    I think in this case I am probably closer to the majority opinion than you are (which is quite a shock). I believe a majority of the members of Western Civilization and perhaps of all Human civilizations have believed that the death of a child is a worse event than the death of an adult.
    SPOILERS
    On Gundam 00,
     
    Tieira Erde died an unfair and overly brutal death. Being repeatably shot before finally getting hit in the head. He took over Veda and was never allowed to be human again. Even though he was, God knows how old, the Innovators didn't age quickly, he died much more brutally than Euphy. He did bad stuff, and was the bad one in Celestial Being, but he didn't deserve to go through that. Was his life worth less than Setsuna's just because Setsuna was only 20?




    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    [/b]Would you say your mother's life is worth less than my cousin(who's eight)?

    Sorry, I don't usually do this, but, this whole "value of life" thing is very upsetting to me.
    [/quote]

    Yes I would. I would say that despite the fact that I love my mother more than I love your cousin, my code of ethics tells me that the life of your cousin who is eight is worth more than the life of my mother who is a bit older than eight.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 02-06-2010 at 11:25 PM.

  24. #124
    Cardinal of Eden Vital Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia's Avatar
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    Yesm I would. I would say that edespite the fact that I love my mother more than I love your cousin, my code of ethics tells me that the life of your cousin who is eight is worth more than the life of my mother.
    That is the biggest lie I have ever heard.
    You're wrong and Smile is right, no one's life is worth more. We're all alive, and there is no difference between us if that's true. Not race, or age, or religion, or sexual orientation. We are all equal because we are all human. We all have souls, therefore we can all feel pain, fear, happiness, and regret.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  25. #125
    Nonconfirmist Goatherder Aizmov has a reputation beyond repute Aizmov has a reputation beyond repute Aizmov has a reputation beyond repute Aizmov has a reputation beyond repute Aizmov has a reputation beyond repute Aizmov has a reputation beyond repute Aizmov has a reputation beyond repute Aizmov has a reputation beyond repute Aizmov has a reputation beyond repute Aizmov has a reputation beyond repute Aizmov has a reputation beyond repute Aizmov's Avatar
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    I agree with OP
    Euphy's death was worst I've seen on TV

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