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Thread: *SPOILERS* The shot that killed My Love for Anime

  1. #276
    Junior Member Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    If Marxists really believed that nations were evil and world unity was good Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, etc. etc. would have joined the USSR as soon as Communist governments took over at the end of World War II. And there would never have been wars between Communist China and the USSR, or between Communist Vietnam and Communist Cambodia, etc. etc.
    Actually, Marxism says to do away with nations, yes. It is very clear. You don't disprove that by saying the USSR didn't follow up on it; of course they didn't, it would have been extremely unpractical.

    So you know what Poland and the other East European countries would have done? Wow, you're clairvoyant! Even though most people in those nations would rather have committed suicide than join the USSR, especially after the Soviets killed the best of Polish society in the Katyn Massacre. And by the way, what relevance does that have to my question? None.

    Actually I count only four great empires in history (The Persian Empire during the Achamenid Dynasty and to a lesser degree during the Arsacid and Sassanid Dynasties; the Roman Empire, including all of its branches and offshoots such as the "Byzantine" Empire and the Holy Roman Empire; The Arab Empire of the Caliphs; and the Inca Empire.

    The Mongol Empire would count as a fifth if it's conquests were not so incredibly brutal.
    Excuse me, why would what you count as empires be relevant? What does that have to do with my point? You said: Britannia could have joined with the Chinese Federation and created world peace, by everyone slowly merging into one people. I gave plenty of examples of countries that created empires, and little to no merging took place. What do you answer to that? Other than saying you don't count them as empires, which is irrelevant.

    I forgot a few, by the way: Austro-Hungaria for example. And everybody's favorite, Yugoslavia. Nice merging of nationalities there.

    The European "empires" seem more like accumulations of colonial possessions than true empires to me.
    A

    Accumulation of colonies = the definition of empire.

    Good grief.

    nd of the possessions of those colonial "empires" Latin America gained independence as a result of the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars and the others because of the terrible shock of World War I and World War II.

    The Zulu realm was more like a kingdom.
    FACT: all of those were empires. No "merging of peoples" took place. They all wanted independence. Like the subjugated peoples in the Mayan Empire, the Inca Empire, and the USSR. And like Finland, which left Russia during WWI even after a long period of being given concessions as an autonomous part of Russia, with Finns even serving as the Czar's honorary guard. Shall I go on? Empires don't work. Peoples don't merge. They want to be free.

    Actually most of those reams fell mostly because of external invasions and only slightly because of rebellions by the subject peoples.
    Nope, you're wrong. But thanks for throwing in whatever you can to just make your posts longer and longer....

    By the way: why would the peoples in the empires want to leave when outside pressure weakened the empires - if they had merged into one people as you claim they could? Instead they were just waiting for the opportunity to break free. You just showed one example of how they break free, thereby adding more proof that that's what happens to empires in the end.


    And the subjects of the Roman Empire did develop a sense of Roman identity. Languages based on Latin are spoken from Rumania or Romania (Roman-land) to Portugal. "Byzantine" Greeks called themselves Rhomaion, or Romans. Asia Minor, modern Turkey, was for centuries known to Muslim peoples as Rum ("Rome"). Modern Turks and Greeks are ethnic enemies, but for more than a thousand years the ancestors of both nations were known as Romans and proud of it.
    Oh boy, how ignorant you are. Latin was spread to France, Spain and Portugal through the Goths, not through the Roman Empire. The Western Goths became Christianized, and after they had invaded Rome they brought Latin with them when they moved further west. They became a ruling class in southern France and in the Iberian peninsula, and that is why those languages are Latin-based. It didn't happen in the Roman Empire. It only happened AFTER the Roman Empire had fallen. That is how unwilling they were to merge with the Romans!

    Did they merge back with Rome? No. So you lose there.

    " "Byzantine" Greeks called themselves Rhomaion, or Romans. " - Did they merge back with Rome? Nope. So you lose there, once again.

    Modern Turks and Greeks are ethnic enemies, but for more than a thousand years the ancestors of both nations were known as Romans and proud of it. - Your ignorance is truly staggering. The Turks were never part of the Roman Empire, and never called themselves Romans! It was the Byzantines who were East Rome! The Turks invaded Byzantine and ended it!

    Please, look up the real history instead of making things up. To claim that the Turks called themselves Romans for a thousand years, that is extremely absurd. It's like saying the English called themselves Irishmen because they ran Ireland.

    (And Ireland broke away and gained independence, by the way. So once again there's an example of how wrong you are about the "evil of nations" being destroyed through empires.)

    The Roman Empire was ruled by officials and even Emperors of many different ethic origins, such as Macrinus the Moor or Philip the Arab, or Septimius Severus, whose family allegedly spoke Punic more often than Latin when he was a child.
    LOL And they couldn't wait to break free, which they did.

    By the way, once again you falsify history. Making it sound as if Rome was always run by outsiders. For a long, long time it was run by Romans. But when the Romans were weakened and became a smaller percentage of the Empire's population, they had to give more and more concessions to the subjugated peoples. I assume you generalize and say Rome was run by foreign peoples, just like that, as yet another part of following a Marxist-leaning "sociology" agenda - the glory of Rome must not be a European thing, right? I know how that works.

    For example, In the fifth century AD the Okimi ("Great King") of Wa (Japan) sent a message to China boasting of the dozens of tribes or kingdoms of "barbarians" that he and his ancestors had conquered for the greater glory of their overlord the Son of Heaven (and not all to satisfy their own lust for power, of course). And at that time more than half of modern Japan was still unconquered by the Japanese. And over centuries the natives of tens or hundreds of conquered and annexed lands have turned into Japanese people.
    Uh, they were far, far closer to each other than any other peoples. They were just tribes of the same people, and tribes of the same people merge easily. Don't lecture me on that, I know history better than you do. Question: did the Koreans come to think of themselves as Japanese, even after generations of Japanese control? Did the Chinese in Manchuria come to think of themselves as Japanese, when they were controlled by the Japanese Empire? Do the Taiwanese consider themselves Japanese, after Japan built pretty much their entire infrastructure? Answer: no. You fail again. And these peoples are much closer to each other than the Britannians and Japanese in Code Geass.

  2. #277
    Junior Member Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    It would be a fairy tale for billions of people who would have had the danger of war between their realms ended so easily, and at almost the same time that F.R.E.I.J.A. came into use.
    Yet another falsification. The peoples didn't war between each other, they warred against the empire to break free from it!

    Empires don't end wars, empires create wars. That is how they become empires, in case you didn't notice. And then the slaves fight back, and only then do you complain, saying they ruin the peace - you don't complain about the empires ruining the peace in the first place!

    When countries don't want to be empires, that is when they have peace between each other. So score 1 for the peaceful anti-empire side, and score 0 for the aggressive pro-empire side. And that's how the score will stay in this discussion.

    But do go on telling us about "the evil of nations", where people want to live in peace, and praise the "wonderful fairytale" of empires that start wars against those nations. Amazing how you make it sound like the war-starting side is the peaceful one, and those who resist are the warmongers.

  3. #278
    Junior Member Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    In post # 273 wolfgirl90 wrote:

    But again, you STILL waited until then to figure it out, so you really shouldn't "congratulate" yourself on anything.

    That's like failing a test but congratulating yourself because you got a higher failing grade than the others. You have nothing to be proud of. Do you want a cookie? Or would you prefer to wallow in your own sense of self-satisfaction? Oh wait, you are already doing that. Maybe I should use the word "roll" instead of wallow; I wouldn't want to insult animals by comparing them to you."

    But many of you say that I should accept Lelouch or Celestial Being, despite their flaws, as being better than their enemies.
    Your insult here lacks class in much the same way your lack of arguments does.

  4. #279
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    Your insult here lacks class in much the same way your lack of arguments does.
    Dante K dont double post the admins are very strict about this... except for proEuphy for some reason, maybe they get a good laugh or someting out of it and allow her to.

    But anyways back to you proEuphy. Stop venting your anger on Lelouch it wasnt his fault the devil made him do it, so blame the devil and maybe people might just start agreeing with you.

    PS For the love of god proEuphy please stay away from all Code Geass Doujins ecspecially the naughty one of your Almighty, Beutiful, Flawless, Intellegent, Graceful, Elegent, Dead, Fictional, Unoriginal, Goddess of Love, Peace and Justice who will punish evil blah blah blah blah... Im done for now. Cant even reply seriously anymore.
    Last edited by blackrosetwilight; 03-15-2010 at 10:13 PM.

  5. #280
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Gamertag: DisturbedWiccan PSN ID: Wolfdragon63 Steam ID: Wolfgirl90

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    Have you contacted Sunrise yet, proEuphie? And again, you do realize that I am no longer having a serious debate with you anymore, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But unlike you I did not believe that Lelouch shot Clovis for political gain.
    Because you are stupid. He had a nice long conversation with Clovis (with a gun pointed to Clovis' face) before using the Geass on him. Then, the last thing he said to him was "You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty." If you couldn't figure out Lelouch's motives from that, you are stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You keep saying that Lelouch gained something by killing Euphemia and so I keep pointing out that he needed her alive.
    And I have told you that your thoughts run on a logical fallacy and therefore moot. Its called "affirming the consequent" (If A, then B; B; Therefore A). Just because the failure of the Black Rebellion happened after Lelouch killed Euphemia DOES NOT mean that Euphemia's death caused it.

    My point is that Lelouch gained huge amounts of support from the Japanese by killing Euphemia, rebellion failing or not (whether this was necessary or not is a side I choose not delve into). YOUR job is to PROVE TO ME that this didn't happen, that killing Euphemia DID NOT cause the Japanese to rally behind Lelouch; the Rebellion failing has nothing to do with this. Thinking that it does is an irrelevant conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But many of you say that I should accept Lelouch or Celestial Being, despite their flaws, as being better than their enemies.
    I don't know who said that, but I certainly never did. I neither admire nor abhor any of the things that Lelouch did (since he is a freaking cartoon character who is really a puppet of Sunrise) so I honestly do not care if you hate him for what he did or not; that's your decision. HOWEVER, the problem that I have with you is that you twist facts around, to the point where they are flat out lies. Go ahead and hate Lelouch; I won't stop you as it is your right but you better have your facts straight when you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    If that worked it would save many more Japanese lives than finding and defeating the scattered Britannians one by one.
    Once again troll with very short attention span, I was merely explaining WHY Lelouch did what he did. I didn't say what he SHOULD have done, I only pointed out what he did. What he should have done and what he actually did do are two separate things and I have always been talking about the latter, not the former.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Of course, not, because the gates were open and they just strolled in as many Elevens where in the habit of doing.
    "Strolled in"? Nice try, idiot. First of all, a group of Ashford students practically pushed Ohgi and Villeta in; they didn't "stroll in". Also, the Academy was holding their annual school festival that day; Elevens were allowed to attend and were treated quite nicely. At all other times, the gates are locked. So I just proved this part of your argument moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Can you imagine Euphemia coming out of her geass trance and being told what she did and denying it and seeing videos and begging Zero for forgiveness and being told he forgave him and and being eternally grateful to him?
    I can imagine that. Then again, I can also imagine a unicorn and a leprechaun dropping acid on St. Patrick's Day and having a gay fantasy wedding lead by the Harry Potter Puppet Pals. That doesn't mean its feasible or going to come true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    Oh boy, how ignorant you are. Latin was spread to France, Spain and Portugal through the Goths, not through the Roman Empire.
    Umm...what? Something you will learn very quickly from me: I call EVERYONE on their crap, not just trolls. I WILL look things up if I don't know them already, but this was so dumb I didn't need to; if you know Romance languages, this is common sense (look it up before you post).

    First of all, France, Spain and Portugal were already a part of the Roman Empire (and speaking and writing in Latin) well before the Goths got there. Even at the maximum extent of the Empire (circa 137 AD), the Goths still didn't arrive until 3 centuries later, so I do not know what you are talking about. Sure, the Goths helped with the fall of the Roman Empire, but they didn't spread Latin as those countries were already speaking it (and they didn't spread their own language as there is no modern descendant of the Gothic language). To say that the Roman Empire wasn't responsible for the spread of Latin (when their primary language was freaking LATIN) is just a little short of dumb. What were you saying about ignorance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    " "Byzantine" Greeks called themselves Rhomaion, or Romans. " - Did they merge back with Rome? Nope. So you lose there, once again.
    No, you do. What does them not merging with Rome have anything to do with what they called themselves? The Byzantine Greeks DID call themselves the Rhomaion (Ῥωμαίων-Rhōmaíōn), or rather the Rhomaioi. They did this to reflect a dual identity, by using their new title ("Roman") but using it in their language, reflecting their Hellenic heritage. The thing that proEuphie is missing is the simple fact that just because they called themselves "Romans" does not mean they accepted or embraced it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    Your insult here lacks class in much the same way your lack of arguments does.
    Pardon, who are you talking to? I was the one who insulted proEuphie. She didn't insult me (I would love to see her try), it was the other way around. If you were talking to me about my insult, then I do not know what "lack of arguments" you are referring to. Also, if you are going to talk to me, quote me or refer to me, don't talk around me.

    Also, watch it with the double posting. Its against the rules and one of the most annoying things you can do here and it is not well tolerated.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  6. #281
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    Excuse me, why would what you count as empires be relevant? What does that have to do with my point? You said: Britannia could have joined with the Chinese Federation and created world peace, by everyone slowly merging into one people. I gave plenty of examples of countries that created empires, and little to no merging took place. What do you answer to that? Other than saying you don't count them as empires, which is irrelevant.

    I forgot a few, by the way: Austro-Hungaria for example. And everybody's favorite, Yugoslavia. Nice merging of nationalities there.
    What an interesting pair your last two examples are:

    Yugoslavia fell apart with civil wars, expulsions, ethnic cleansing, massacres, etc. when no external pressure was being applied to it, and when it was as prosperous as it had ever been.

    Austria-Hungary fell apart during the second worst cataclysm of the 20th Century. Even the winners in World War I suffered so badly that they were in some ways worse off than countries which lost in less bloody and destructive wars. Saying a realm which fell in World war I was weak and on the verge of collapse is almost as foolish as saying that a realm which fell in World WAR II must have been weak and on the verge of collapse anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    A Accumulation of colonies = the definition of empire.

    Good grief.
    The term empire derives from the Latin imperium. Politically, an empire is a geographically extensive group of states and peoples (ethnic groups) united and ruled either by a monarch (emperor, empress) or an oligarchy. Geopolitically, the term empire has denoted very different, territorially-extreme states — at the strong end, the extensive Spanish Empire (16th c.) and the British Empire (19th c.), at the weak end, the Holy Roman Empire (8th c.–19th c.), in its Medieval and early-modern forms, and the Byzantine Empire (15th c.), that was a direct continuation of the Roman Empire, that, in its final century of existence, was more a city-state than a territorial empire. -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire

    the domain ruled by an emperor or empress; the region over which imperial dominion is exercised -- http://www.google.com/search?q=defin...re&btnG=Search

    EMPIRE. This word signifies, first, authority or command; it is the power to command or govern those actions of men which would otherwise be free; secondly, the country under the government of an emperor but sometimes it is used to designate a country subject to kingly power, as the British empire. Wolff, Inst. Sec. 833.
    Source: Bouvier's Law Dictionary, Revised 6th Ed (1856) -- http://www.dictionary.net/empire

    Empire \Em"pire\, n. [F., fr. L. imperium a command, sovereignty, dominion, empire, fr. imperare. See Emperor; cf. Imperial.]

    1. Supreme power; sovereignty; sway; dominion. "The empire of the sea." --Shak. [1913 Webster]
    Over hell extend His empire, and with iron scepter rule. --Milton. [1913 Webster]
    2. The dominion of an emperor; the territory or countries under the jurisdiction and dominion of an emperor (rarely of a king), usually of greater extent than a kingdom, always comprising a variety in the nationality of, or the forms of administration in, constituent and subordinate portions; as, the Austrian empire. [1913 Webster]
    Empire carries with it the idea of a vast and complicated government. --C. J. Smith. [1913 Webster]
    3. Any dominion; supreme control; governing influence; rule; sway; as, the empire of mind or of reason. "Under the empire of facts." -- http://www.dictionary.net/empire+state


    em·pire
    –noun1.a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government: usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire.

    2.a government under an emperor or empress.

    3.(often initial capital letter) the historical period during which a nation is under such a government: a history of the second French empire.

    4.supreme power in governing; imperial power; sovereignty: Austria's failure of empire in central Europe.

    5.supreme control; absolute sway: passion's empire over the mind.

    6.a powerful and important enterprise or holding of large scope that is controlled by a single person, family, or group of associates: The family's shipping empire was founded 50 years ago.

    7.(initial capital letter) a variety of apple somewhat resembling the McIntosh.-- http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/empire


    So the first five definitions of empire which I found on the internet do not define an empire as an accumulation of colonial possessions.

    In post # 269 Dante K listed various empires. semi-empires, and "empires": The Roman Empire. And the Arab Empire. And the Persian Empire. And the Byzantine Empire. And the Mongol Empire. And the Charlemagne French Empire. And the Holy German-Roman Empire. And the Ottoman Empire. And the Hunnic Empire. And the African Zulu Empire. And the Inca Empire. And the Mayan Empire. And the Spanish Empire. And the Portuguese Empire. And the British Empire. And the Italian Empire. And the Japanese Empire. And the Reich Empire. And the Soviet Empire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    FACT: all of those were empires. No "merging of peoples" took place. They all wanted independence. Like the subjugated peoples in the Mayan Empire, the Inca Empire, and the USSR. And like Finland, which left Russia during WWI even after a long period of being given concessions as an autonomous part of Russia, with Finns even serving as the Czar's honorary guard. Shall I go on? Empires don't work. Peoples don't merge. They want to be free.
    Empires which were invaded and conquered and/or divided by other realms include: the Roman Empire, The Persian Empire, The "Byzantine" (Eastern Roman) Empire, The Holy Roman Empire (partially), The Ottoman Empire (partially), The Zulu kingdom, The Inca Empire, The Mayan realms (which were never united as far as I know), The Spanish Empire (partially), The Italian empire, The Japanese Empire, and the Reich Empire.

    Empires which fell apart because of the treason of the ruling class toward the central government include The Arab Empire, the Charlemagne French (Frankish) Empire, the Holy Roman Empire (partially), and the Hunnic Empire.

    Empires which fell apart because many of the subject peoples wanted national independence include the Ottoman Empire (partially) the Spanish Empire (mostly), the Portuguese Empire, the British Empire, and the Soviet Empire.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    By the way: why would the peoples in the empires want to leave when outside pressure weakened the empires - if they had merged into one people as you claim they could? Instead they were just waiting for the opportunity to break free. You just showed one example of how they break free, thereby adding more proof that that's what happens to empires in the end.
    Most of the empires you listed fell because of invasion and military conquest. Period. The subject peoples were not just waiting for the first chance to break free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    Oh boy, how ignorant you are. Latin was spread to France, Spain and Portugal through the Goths, not through the Roman Empire. The Western Goths became Christianized, and after they had invaded Rome they brought Latin with them when they moved further west. They became a ruling class in southern France and in the Iberian peninsula, and that is why those languages are Latin-based. It didn't happen in the Roman Empire. It only happened AFTER the Roman Empire had fallen. That is how unwilling they were to merge with the Romans!

    Did they merge back with Rome? No. So you lose there.
    Wolfgirl90 already pointed out how wrong you are about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    " "Byzantine" Greeks called themselves Rhomaion, or Romans. " - Did they merge back with Rome? Nope. So you lose there, once again.
    In the Sixth Century AD The Eastern Roman Emperor Justinian invaded and conquered several of the barbarian kingdoms in the west, reconquering North Africa, Italy, part of Spain, and the islands in the western Mediterranean, or nearly half of the Western Roman Empire.

    "Byzantine" emperors as late as Manual I Comnenus (1140-1180) intervened politically and militarily in Italy in the hope of regaining control of Rome and other parts of Italy. They tried to merge back with Rome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    Modern Turks and Greeks are ethnic enemies, but for more than a thousand years the ancestors of both nations were known as Romans and proud of it. - Your ignorance is truly staggering. The Turks were never part of the Roman Empire, and never called themselves Romans! It was the Byzantines who were East Rome! The Turks invaded Byzantine and ended it!

    Please, look up the real history instead of making things up. To claim that the Turks called themselves Romans for a thousand years, that is extremely absurd. It's like saying the English called themselves Irishmen because they ran Ireland.
    Are the Turks Turks? As with many ethic groups that question is not as silly as it sounds at first.

    Like many ethnic terms, Turk has several meanings. When writing about modern Turkey the word "Turk" can mean:

    1) A native of modern Turkey.

    2) One of the Turkish tribesmen who invaded and settled in Asia Minor in the Eleventh Century AD and founded various realms, one of which, the Ottoman, conquered all that was left of the Eastern Roman Empire centuries later.

    So are the Turks Turks?

    How much are the modern Turks, who have been ethic enemies of the Greeks for a century or two, descended from the Turks who invaded and settled Asia minor (Rum) in the Eleventh Century and turned it into Turkey?

    And how much are the modern Turks descended from the various ethic groups which lived in Asia Minor for thousands of years and were conquered or otherwise annexed by the Roman Empire and turned more or less completely into Romans over generations and centuries, so that Asia Minor became known as Rum ("Rome") in the Middle East, and was the main part of the Eastern Roman Empire for centuries?

    If the modern Turks are mostly descended from the population of "Rum" they would have been assimilated into the culture of their new Turkish masters over the centuries just as they had previously been assimilated into the culture of the Roman and "Byzantine" Empire.

    Historians and geneticists many puzzle over that question. See :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic...Turkish_people But according to you all they had to do was ask you, and you would use your psychic powers to tell them that the invading Turks completely exterminated or drove away millions of natives of Asia Minor in one of the worst cases of genocide in all of known history, leaving the modern Turks 100 percent descended from the Turkish invaders in the Eleventh Century.

    I wrote:The Roman Empire was ruled by officials and even Emperors of many different ethic origins, such as Macrinus the Moor or Philip the Arab, or Septimius Severus, whose family allegedly spoke Punic more often than Latin when he was a child. In the late Third Century AD the generals and Emperors who defeated the barbarians and restored the unity of the Empire during its terrible crisis had risen from the ranks of the common soldiers and had been recruited from the Balkans.

    And you responded with:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    LOL And they couldn't wait to break free, which they did.
    So you are saying that the soldiers, generals, and emperors from the Balkans who fought and died to defeat barbarian and Persian invaders and crush revolts wanted to escape from the Roman Empire? They sure had a funny way of doing so.

    For example, have you ever wondered why the Emperor Aurelian is not considered to be one of the greatest conquerors of all time and the greatest of all Roman conquerors, much greater than Caius Julius Caesar and Pompey the great combined?

    All he did was conquer the Gallic Empire, (Britain, Gaul and Spain) and the Palmyrene Empire (Asia Minor, Syria, and Egypt). Of course, historians assume that since those areas had just recently broken away from the Central Roman Empire in order to have a leader on the spot who could command against the invaders, most of the people felt a lot of loyalty to Rome, making it easier for Aurelian to reconquer those regions.

    But in any case if Aurelian was anti-Roman why didn't he use his position as Roman emperor to sabotage the Roman Empire? Especially since all he had to do to sabotage Rome was nothing at all. He could have just sat back and enjoyed life instead of fighting wars to defeat invaders and reconquer breakaway regions. If Aurelian was anti-Roman he must have been very stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    By the way, once again you falsify history. Making it sound as if Rome was always run by outsiders. For a long, long time it was run by Romans. But when the Romans were weakened and became a smaller percentage of the Empire's population, they had to give more and more concessions to the subjugated peoples. I assume you generalize and say Rome was run by foreign peoples, just like that, as yet another part of following a Marxist-leaning "sociology" agenda - the glory of Rome must not be a European thing, right? I know how that works.
    Were the ancient Romans Romans?

    According the legend, the first Romans were single young Latin men from various Latin city-states who all married Sabine women and merged with the Sabines, so some enemies of Roma in ancient times considered the Romans to be a mongrel people who were always admitting outsiders into their community in order to grow stronger.

    And in historical times the Romans were always granting full or partial Roman rights to individuals and sometimes whole communities, first Latins, then other Italian peoples, then non Italians. And they planted settlements of Roman citizens among non citizen groups, first in Italy, and then in all the provinces. And free people could travel anywhere in the Empire on business and settle anywhere they wanted to.

    In every age of Roman history there were "Old Romans" who had been Roman for centuries and "New Romans" whose families had only recently become Romans. And a century or two later the former "New Roman"' families would be "Old Romans" compared to the "New Romans" of their era whose descendants would be "old Romans" a century or two later.

    So over time the Roman citizen population included a higher and higher proportion of people with non-Roman ancestors. Were the Romans Romans? That depends on your point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    Uh, they were far, far closer to each other than any other peoples. They were just tribes of the same people, and tribes of the same people merge easily. Don't lecture me on that, I know history better than you do. Question: did the Koreans come to think of themselves as Japanese, even after generations of Japanese control? Did the Chinese in Manchuria come to think of themselves as Japanese, when they were controlled by the Japanese Empire? Do the Taiwanese consider themselves Japanese, after Japan built pretty much their entire infrastructure? Answer: no. You fail again. And these peoples are much closer to each other than the Britannians and Japanese in Code Geass.
    The "hairy barbarians" of Northeastern Japan might have been a lot closer to the modern Ainu than to the Japanese, and thus not so quick to assimilate as you assume. It may have taken many centuries of Japanese rule.

    The lack of assimilation in Taiwan and Korea could have something to do with Japan ruling those lands for only about fifty years and not centuries. And it could have had something to do with the extreme brutality of the Japanese conquerors, based on their racist attitudes toward Taiwanese and Koreans, etc. To the Japanese the Chinese and Koreans were subhuman animals almost as lowly and degraded as Americans. To the Japanese of that era the Koreans were more alien and farther apart from them than the Britannians and Japanese in Code Geass seem to us.

    There are hundreds of thousands of people of Korean ancestry in Japan who have become largely assimilated into Japanese culture. They have lived among an almost entirely Japanese culture for several generations more than Koreans in Korea lived among an only partially Japanese society, of course.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-29-2010 at 09:13 PM.

  7. #282
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    Okay, this nonsense has gone on long enough. Enough with the empire discussion since its not really going anywhere. Also, its not really helping anybody's point. ProEuphie: your facts maybe right (sort of) but you are missing the overall point and you are going WAY off-topic...again. Dante K: I do not know where you get your "facts" ("The Romans didn't spread Latin"? What?!), but you are spewing nonsense, while at the same time breaking a couple of rules.

    Let me summarize my point again (so we can drop this rather useless discussion):

    I do not think that Euphemia's death was a murder. Lelouch killed her for two simple reasons: to get the Japanese to rally on his side and to get her to stop BLOODY KILLING PEOPLE. These are facts that really can't be disputed.

    Now, that is what happened. Were there more options? Yes. Would they have worked? Maybe, maybe not. Was what Lelouch did the "right" thing to do? Well, that can be debated until doomsday.

    No offense to Euphemia fans, but I really didn't care about her death. While it was a little shocking to know that Lelouch killed her, her death, overall, was not, mostly because I knew that a character that had the same name as a famous Catholic saint (and a martyr at that) was absolutely NO coincidence (Sunrise likes doing that).
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  8. #283
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    Well phrased. Simply that is what we have been trying to put across to proEuphie (and very unsucessfully, I might add) but since we now know that she just rambles off on her own track (and I don't know how talk of Empires came in o_O) we'll leave her...here.


    いつからかの思い出…

  9. #284
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Let me summarize my point again (so we can drop this rather useless discussion):

    I do not think that Euphemia's death was a murder. Lelouch killed her for two simple reasons: to get the Japanese to rally on his side and to get her to stop BLOODY KILLING PEOPLE. These are facts that really can't be disputed.
    How can what goes on in a person's mind be undisputed? I don't remember Lelouch thinking about his choices or talking about them.

    (A)There were two goals that any good person in Lelouch's position should have been thinking about.

    1) Stopping Euphemia from personally killing any more people. When she was in her nightmare it seemed almost impossible to stop her without destroying the nightmare in a way which would have killed her. But Lelouch had a method available. He used the Gawain's weird finger-thread weapon to slice up her nightmare without harming her.

    I find it very hard to believe that such a strange weapon had any purpose except destroying nightmares while leaving their pilots unharmed to be captured for interrogation, for use as hostages, for being tortured for fun, or any other purpose there might be for taking prisoners. Thus the instructions probably said that after destroying a nightmare the pilot should be captured by using a hypothetical capture device of the Gawain such as a stun ray, a net, etc., or else by simply picking up the pilot in a giant robot hand.

    Thus I find it hard to believe that Lelouch could not possibly see how useful the strange finger-thread weapon was for capturing nightmare pilots alive. I don't see how he could have used it on Euphemia''s nightmare and seen her emerge from the wreckage thirty feet below him without realizing in a flash that he was not forced to kill her, that he could easily capture her alive. The whole scene seems to have been written to show that Lelouch did not have to kill Euphie, but wanted to kill her for some unknown reason.

    Capturing Euphemia would have been just as fast, just as easy, and just as safe for Lelouch was killing her would be. And confining her would be just as safe for the Japanese as killing her.

    It doesn't matter what Euphemia was trying to do or how evil what she was trying to do was. It doesn't even make it much worse that Lelouch knew she was an innocent victim of mind control. If capturing someone will stop them just as well as killing them, and if capturing them would be just as fast, just as easy, and just as safe as killing them, killing them becomes unnecessary and evil.

    Killing someone to stop them from doing the greatest imaginable evil is just as much murder as killing someone to stop them from doing the greatest imaginable good, if it is not necessary to kill them to stop them. In each case, if it is unnecessary to kill them to stop them, choosing to kill them for the sake of killing them is murder.

    2) Stopping the Britannian soldiers who were obeying Euphemia's massacre orders at the Fuji Stadium neighborhood and everywhere else that Euphemia's broadcast commanding massacre has heard and obeyed. The fastest way to do that, if it worked, was to capture Euphemia and try to use her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

    By not capturing Euphemia and trying to use her as a hostage to try to stop the massacre Lelouch may have let tens, or hundreds, or thousands of Japanese be killed who otherwise might have been saved. Thus Lelouch can be accused of murdering any Japanese people who might have been killed in the massacres after Lelouch could have tried, and perhaps succeeded, to stop the massacres by using Euphemia as a hostage.

    If Lelouch killed Euphemia in part to stop her from killing any more Japanese people and didn't even think about trying to use her as a hostage to stop the other participants in the massacre who were killing people much faster than she was, he was looking at the little picture and ignoring the big picture. And thus he was not a very good strategist.

    (B) And you state that Lelouch also killed Euphemia to gain support from the Japanese for his rebellion.

    But that would only be justified if Lelouch knew that: 1) killing her would be both a) necessary,and b) sufficient to get the needed amount of support from the Japanese, and 2) that there even was an amount of support from the Japanese that would be both a) necessary, and b) sufficient, for the rebellion to succeed.

    But Lelouch should have known that widely different amounts of support from the Japanese would be both necessary and sufficient for the rebellion to succeed depending on circumstances such as plans that Lelouch choose and different actions that Britannia took.

    If, for example, if the Britannians had omitted to inform the rebel Lelouch about all their top secret weapons projects, they might be able to deploy a weapon that would wipe out everyone in Japan, thus making the rebellion a failure despite any imaginable degree of support from the Japanese.

    In many scenarios, the amount of support from the Japanese due to saving the survivors of the Fuji Massacre would be totally inadequate for the Black Rebellion to succeed, even if Lelouch increased it a little by killing Euphemia. Thus killing Euphemia would be useless for the cause, and thus unnecessary, and thus an evil murder.

    And in many other scenarios of the rebellion, the amount of support from the Japanese due to saving the survivors of the Fuji Massacre would be much more than was sufficient to make the rebellion succeed, even if Lelouch did not add to it by killing Euphemia. Thus killing Euphemia would be more than needed for the cause, and thus unnecessary, and thus an evil murder.

    In in a third type of scenario, in which the support from the Japanese due to rescuing the survivors of the Fuji Massacre would be almost as much as necessary for the rebellion to succeed,and killing Euphemia would add an little more support which would be enough for the rebellion to succeed. In that case killing Euphemia would be necessary and sufficient for the cause to succeed and thus would be a justifiable act if the rebellion was justified

    But there are two restrictions to even that justification:

    1) Of course I believe that almost exactly no rebellion anywhere, anytime, against anyone, can ever be justified.
    Certainly not the Black Rebellion against the puny degree of oppression in Area Eleven.

    2) And even if the cause is the most justified imaginable, killing Euphemia or any other person to gain support for the cause can only be justified if the circumstances of the killing are not those of a murder. Political murder for the sake of any cause, no matter how good, is still murder. And of course I am angered by Euphemia's killing precisely because the circumstances are those of murder, killing someone unnecessarily.

    So it has been established that killing Euphemia to gain support from the Japanese was a evil murder. But was it a practical evil murder?

    No. How could Lelouch be such a great genius that he could predict the results of any action and the amount of support that action would bring him? How could Lelouch be such a great genius that he could calculate how much support from the Japanese was necessary and sufficient for the Black Rebellion to succeed, when different Britannian responses which Lelouch could not control would require widely differing amounts of support from the Japanese if the Black Rebellion was to succeed?

    Lelouch could only guess and estimate, not calculate precisely. Lelouch could not possibly know that killing Euphemia would be both necessary and sufficient to bring about the success of the Black Rebellion. But Lelouch did know that if he was killed the Black Rebellion -- and all his plans to use the Black Rebellion to change the world -- would fail without him. Lelouch should have been able to calculate that taking the extra risk to kill Euphemia face to face instead of capturing her in complete safety to himself, increased the chances of failure for the Black Rebellion far more than killing her would be likely to increase the chances of success.

    So I believe that Lelouch did not kill Euphemia for any good, humane reason and not for any rational evil reason either. Lelouch's reasons for killing Euphemia are a mystery.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Now, that is what happened. Were there more options? Yes. Would they have worked? Maybe, maybe not. Was what Lelouch did the "right" thing to do? Well, that can be debated until doomsday.
    It seems to me that the probability of success for those other options was so high that there is no debate possible. Lelouch did the wrong thing, both evil and unwise, when he killed Euphemia.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-23-2010 at 11:05 PM.

  10. #285
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    And I have told you that your thoughts run on a logical fallacy and therefore moot. Its called "affirming the consequent" (If A, then B; B; Therefore A). Just because the failure of the Black Rebellion happened after Lelouch killed Euphemia DOES NOT mean that Euphemia's death caused it.


    And you keep ignoring my actual point in favor of another point I did not make.

    I did not write that Euphemia's death caused the failure of the Black Rebellion the way it failed in episode 25. I wrote that with the information available to Lelouch he should have realized that Euphemia's death would make the failure of the Black Rebellion inevitable. Did I have to add that the Black Rebelllion was crushed due to another cause before the moment when Euphemia's death would have caused the failure of the Black Rebellion? Do I have to constantly point out the obvious?

    This is what I wrote in post # 274 above. It has a number of reasons why Lelouch needed a live Euphemia. The last one shows that Lelouch killed his plan when he killed Euphemia.


    In Code Geass:Black Knight/White Knight my post number 155 quotes from earlier posts in which I prove that Leloluch needed Euphemia alive and killed her anyway.

    from post # 24, Mecha Ethics: Tens or hundreds or thousands of Britannian soldiers obeyed Euphemia's orders to kill Japanese at the Fuji stadium. Unless you have proof that Lelouch knew that Euphemia was the last Britannian left at Fuji then he should have captured her and used her as a hostage to stop the massacre instead of killing her.

    And don't forget that Euphemia broadcast an order to kill Japanese at the beginning of episode 23. If any Britannian military units not at the Fuji Stadium were close enough to receive that message then there would have been other massacres taking place in other locations beside the Fuji stadium and the surrounding area that the surviving Japanese fled to. Could the Black Knights have learned about all those other massacres and stopped them before Lelouch found Euphemia? Probably not. So Lelouch should have captured Euphemia and broadcast a message threatening to kill her unless all the Britannians who heard it stopped killing at once. Not doing so makes Lelouch guilty of murdering all the Japanese who might have been killed after he could have used Euphemia as a hostage to stop the massacre or massacres.


    from post # 19, Mecha ethics: And remember Euphemia broadcasting an order to kill Japanese at the beginning of episode 23. If that order was received by any Britannian soldiers who were not at the stadium, and obeyed, there would have been other massacres taking place besides the Fuji Stadium Massacre. It seems highly unlikely that the Black Knights had already heard about and stopped those other massacres by the time that Lelouch found Euphemia. Thus Euphemia should still have been valuable as a hostage to stop those other massacres even if she was the last Britannian still fighting at Fuji.

    And if Lelouch and the Black Knights were defeated having Euphemia as a prisoner to trade could save the lives of many Japanese, many Black Knights, and even Lelouch himself. Since nobody knew all Lelouch's plans and goals with the possible exception of CC who could not be counted on to carry on after Lelouch's death, Lelouch's death would have been the total end to all his plans. Thus if he had any desire to protect his followers and if he wanted to have even the slightest chance of surviving defeat to try again, Lelouch had to keep Euphemia alive to trade for their lives in the case of a defeat, which only an arrogant jerk would not consider likely enough to plan for.

    And Lelouch should have known that if Euphemia survived, even if he was defeated and captured before being able to use her to bargain for mercy, Euphemia would use what little influence she had to plead for Lelouch's life, and thus reduce his chances of being executed from possibly about 99 percent to possibly about 95 percent.

    And of course if the Black Rebellion was defeated the fate of thousands and millions of Japanese would largely be in the hands of Cornelia. If Euphemia was alive she would try to restrain Cornelia's violent tendencies, while if Euphemia was killed Cornelia's anger could result in many thousands or millions of extra Japanese deaths. And even after Lelouch gave Euphemia the command to kill the Japanese Cornelia's greater power meant that a dead Euphemia and an enraged Cornelia would be more dangerous to the Japanese than a live but discredited and probably considered insane Euphemia trying to use her lesser authority and influence to kill as many Japanese as possible.


    from post # 179, Did Euphemia Escape from her Geass Before Lelouch Shot her?: And Lelouch might have been able to use Euphemia to force some military or political concession out of Cornelia.

    For example, he might force her to agree to march her army to meet his at a specified time and place. Lelouch could tell his followers that if a few of them were stationed at points A, B, And C on the map they could trap Cornelia's army. And Cornelia would tell her men that Zero was planning to put men at points A, B, And C to trap them but she would foil him by sending some of her men to points D and E to trap the rebels. And Zero would privately tell his commanders that Cornelia would no doubt plan to trap them by sending men to points D and E but they could trap them and the rest of Cornelia's army with units at points F and G!


    from post # 179 Did Euphemia Escape From Her Geass Before Lelouch Shot Her?: And later Lelouch privately gloated to CC that the Emperor would have to meet Zero once the rebels proclaimed an independent Japan in the Government Center in the Tokyo Settlement. Which is like saying king George III would have had to come to the United States as soon as he heard about the Declaration of independence. So Lelouch privately told his only confidant that he had no plan prepared to defend against the weeks and months and years of attacks from Brittannia which would have occurred instead of the visit from Emperor Charles.

    Lelouch desperately needed to keep as many Britannians as possible alive, especially Cornelia and above all Euphemia, to trick the Emperor into thinking it was safe to come to Japan. Lelouch could not expect that anyone who knew Euphemia even slightly, like her father did, would believe the massacre story. Instead they would believe that the Japanese had made up the story and faked the videos to justify the murder of an innocent girl. It would have been incredibly suicidal for the Emperor to go to Japan if Euphemia was alive, since he was hated much more than she was, and thousands of times less likely for him to go there if she was dead.

    So Lelouch killed his plan by killing Euphemia. Lelouch must have been irrational with anger ever since the announcement of the SAZ plan; that seems like the only explanation for killing Euphemia.


    end of quote from post # 274.

    I did not write anywhere that killing Euphemia caused VV to sabotage the Black Rebellion in episodes 24 and 25. What I wrote was that Lelouch should have realized that if the Black Rebellion succeeded long enough to proclaim Japanese independence in the Tokyo government center and invite the Emperor to a meeting with Zero, killing Euphemia would scare the Emperor away from the meeting and ruin Lelouch's plan to use his geass on the Emperor at the meeting.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    My point is that Lelouch gained huge amounts of support from the Japanese by killing Euphemia, rebellion failing or not (whether this was necessary or not is a side I choose not delve into). YOUR job is to PROVE TO ME that this didn't happen, that killing Euphemia DID NOT cause the Japanese to rally behind Lelouch; the Rebellion failing has nothing to do with this. Thinking that it does is an irrelevant conclusion.


    You merely claim that the large amount of support that Lelouch received from the Japanese was as a result of killing Euphemia.

    There were a number of things which contributed to Lelouch's support from the Japanese.

    1) the support that Lelouch already had and did not lose as a result of the SAZ plan.

    2) The support that Zero gained when the SAZ plan failed due to the massacre. Lelouch should have gained back approximately as much support as he had lost due to the SAZ plan.

    3) The support that Lelouch gained when he defeated the Britannians and rescued the survivors of the Fuji massacre. If Lelouch captured Euphemia and used her as hostage to stop the massacre he might have saved more Japanese people than he did and might have earned and received more support as a resuult of stopping the massacre than he did receive.

    4) The support Lelouch received when he killed Euphemia.

    5) The support Lelouch gained when he marched on and captured Tokyo.

    it seems to me that you are being arbitrary when you assume that killing Euphemia gained Lelouch the major part of the support he received from the Japanese after he killed Euphemia AND ALSO rescued the Fuji survivors from the Britannians AND ALSO captured Tokyo.

    And it seems to me that pointing out that you have not proven that Lelouch got most of his Japanese support from killing Euphemia may not be proving that he did not gain most of his support from killing Euphemia but certainy proves that nobody knows for a fact that Lelouch got most of his supoort from killing Euphemia.

    It proves that you are speculating when you claim that Lelouch certainly gained most of his support from killing Euphemia.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-22-2010 at 11:11 PM.

  11. #286
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    How can what goes on in a person's mind be undisputed? I don't remember Lelouch thinking about his choices or talking about them.
    For the sake of simplicity, I am just going to ignore every single thing that you said. I didn't read your entire post and I do not need to (as if I ever).

    AGAIN, what Lelouch COULD HAVE DONE is different from what he ACTUALLY DID. Yes, Lelouch COULD have saved Euphemia. Yes, Lelouch COULD have thought about many different ways to save Euphemia instead of ultimately coming to the conclusion of shooting her. Yes, he COULD have captured her and used her as a hostage to get Britannia to do what he wanted. These all things that Lelouch COULD have done. Would they have worked? Maybe, maybe not. You merely have an opinion, nothing more.

    HOWEVER, none (NONE) of these things change what ultimately happened: Lelouch killed Euphemia. All of the alternatives in the world will not change the plot. Simply stating that Lelouch COULD have saved Euphemia doesn't change the fact that she died. Also, since this thread is about Euphemia's murder (you DO remember the topic of YOUR OWN thread, right?) and not about how Lelouch could have saved Euphemia (a topic I could honestly care less about since I knew she was going to die and wanted her to die), I really do not care about how Lelouch COULD have saved Euphemia.

    The reasons why Lelouch killed Euphemia are relatively simple (and yes, he did pretty much state them; you can barely remember anything that happened in the series, so its no surprise that you don't remember). Its not that hard. However, whether you agree with those reasons or not is up to you, but it doesn't change what happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And you keep ignoring my actual point in favor of another point I did not make.
    Of course I am. Haven't I made this clear to you? I honestly do not pay attention to what you say. If it seems that I am ignoring some of your points, its because I am. You are but a troll to me.

    Also, you have broken the rules yet again. Do you not want me to take you seriously or are you content with "arguing" ("trying to argue" is the real situation; this isn't even a serious debate anymore...if it ever was) with someone who sees you as basically a joke?

    Again, I'm just going to tell that, like all trolls, this is really just entertainment (and I am not the only one who thinks so). So if you are trying to have an honest and serious debate (yeah, right), you REALLY shouldn't respond to me since basically I am just going to laugh at you; its what I am doing now.

    If you don't respond to me, to means that you don't want me to take you as a joke and that you want to be just a little bit serious. If you DO...well, the way I respond and treat you won't really change and will continue to ignore your points. Here you go. Last chance. Your choice.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  12. #287
    #1Innovator xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX's Avatar
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    @proEuphie
    Let me put this simply.
    Euphemia was my favorite character. I loved the way she acted. However, when she died, I(like everyone but you) understood that.
    1. It made the show better.
    2. It fixed a plot twist that would have ended the series.
    3. Every anime has that death near the end.
    4. Lelouch had to do it.

    @wolfgirl90
    For the love of all that is good, stop responding to her.
    " I am death and sorrow." -Acheron



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  13. #288
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post

    @wolfgirl90
    For the love of all that is good, stop responding to her.
    Not going to happen becuase Im sure she's enjoying this, after all she does enjoy insanity. Besides what else is there to talk about in code geass besides morales, war, and politics. Code Geass isnt a mech driven anime like Gundam, so you really cant talk much about them in detail.

  14. #289
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    @proEuphie
    Let me put this simply.
    Euphemia was my favorite character. I loved the way she acted. However, when she died, I(like everyone but you) understood that.
    1. It made the show better.
    2. It fixed a plot twist that would have ended the series.
    3. Every anime has that death near the end.
    4. Lelouch had to do it.

    @wolfgirl90
    For the love of all that is good, stop responding to her.
    How can everyone understand something which is not true?

    1) how could it possibly be true that Euphemia's death:
    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    1. It made the show better.
    In order for any series to be good enough to watch it has to be at least a tiny little bit good. It is very difficult for a series to be even a tiny little bit good without likable characters. Likable characters are likable for many different reasons but one requirement that all likable characters have to meet is that they are good enough ethically to be likable.

    In CG the Britannians all see that their armed forces constantly slaughter more people than is necessary and even engage in brutal massacres, and yet none of them is is ever seen trying to do anything to reduce the excessive violence and save lives. Except for Euphemia. She insists on being present at the Battle of Narita and suddenly the Britannians who had just conducted a massacre in "Get Cornelia" behave themselves and are not seen doing anything wrong. And Euphemia refuses to do what she wants to and send the G1 to help her sister for fear it might endanger the lives of civilians.

    Euphemia is the only one on the Britannian side good enough to be likable, with the possible exception of first season Suzaku, who becomes more evil in the second season.

    I say that guerrilla war and terrorism are even more evil than conventional warfare that obeys the laws of war, since guerrilla war and terrorism can be conducted with far less resources than conventional war. Thus much smaller groups of people can start and continue conflicts using terrorism and guerrilla warfare, making peace much harder to get and keep. And terrorism that targets civilians is much more evil than conventional war and guerrilla war that only hits military targets and just as evil as using terror against civilians in conventional or guerrilla war.

    Thus all the rebel groups who get funds and assistance from the Kyoto group in the first season are evil if they know that the Kyoto group also funds groups that engage in terrorism, such as at least one branch of the JLF, and do not protest to the Kyoto group and try to get it to stop supporting terrorists. Any one who continues to fight for the same goal that terrorists fight for is too evil to be good enough to be likable and worth being interested in as a fictional character.

    There are many characters in CG who have many characteristics of likable characters, but since they are too evil to be good enough to be likable they should not be liked by the viewers.

    Without Euphemia, there are no good enough characters in CG and there is no point in the story without likable characters to be interested in. Euphemia's death made the story worse, bad enough to be pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    2. It fixed a plot twist that would have ended the series.
    If the plot twist was the SAZ plan, it might not have ended the series. Inventive writers could have found a way to keep conflict and tension at the same level as in the first season despite a partial end to the Britannian -Japanese conflict, which was only one of the conflicts in the series.

    Examples:

    a) in the second season Lelouch could use his geass to convince Brittannian leaders in Japan to celebrate the pacification by building a giant statue of Emperor Charles at a location Lelouch had chosen because of the old mining tunnels which his followers would dig closer and closer to the surface until small charges of explosives would blast holes into the open for the Black Knights to pour out of when the Emperor came to the dedication ceremony.

    In the meantime Lelouch and the Black Knights travel to another Area to start a rebellion there. Suzaku is sent to lead a force to capture and defeat Zero and the Black Knights, fighting many battles, and Euphemia is sent to be Viceroy and remove support for the rebels by making concessions to the natives. Lelouch and the Black knights move to another Area and start rebellion there, and eventually Suzaku and Euphemia are sent there to oppose them. And the numbers begin to say "Thank God we have Euphemia to teach the Britannians to be kind and good and Zero to scare them into listening to her". Lelouch allies with guerrilla leader "Numero Uno" in Latin America, who becomes jealous of Zero's fame and seeks to outdo him.

    As the time for the dedication draws near, Lelouch and the Black knights travel back to Japan and Lelouch arranges for an anonymous benefactor to pay for the Ashford students to take a vacation at a luxurious resort far from the site of the statue. Euphemia and Suzaku take a rare vacation at the same resort at the same time to be with Nunnnally. But "Numero Uno" learns that a very important person is secretly staying at that resort at that time and plans to capture the resort and use that person as a hostage.

    Then, as the dedication ceremony is about to begin and "Numero Uno" is about to strike, Euphemia and Suzaku find out about both plots and have to decide what to do, while at the same time the Chinese federation launches another attempt to invade Japan, hoping to capture the Emperor, as the second season ends.

    b) Just after the SAZ starts up the Chinese Federation invades Japan again and the happy little group of Lelouch, Suzaku, Euphemia, and Nunnally splits up as they choose two or more different responses to the invasion, ending up on two, three, or four, sides, as well as all the other characters.

    c) As wars heat up and the SAZ seems a little haven of peace in a world would of strife, and Lelouch longs to break his agreement with Euphie and take part, aliens from outer space attack, seeking to enslave or even exterminate all Humans. Lelouch's leadership skills learned in the first season become the key to the survival of Humanity as all warring groups unite to fight the common enemy and Lelouch seeks to gain the leadership and save the world as only he sees how to do. But is he right, or having delusions of grandeur? (This idea was suggested by a science fiction novel in which aliens invade Earth during World War II and the Allies and the Axis unite to defeat their common enemy.)

    etc., etc., etc.

    And there are many other ways the SAZ plan could have failed beside the massacre.

    Examples:

    a) Lelouch could have given Euphemia a geass command to resign as Administrator of the SAZ on the grounds that she was too young and inexperienced for the job, leaving no one else idealistic enough to make it a success.

    b) Euphemia could have simply failed to keep the various factions satisfied and the SAZ could have turned into another conflict instead of the answer to the conflicts.

    c) The Emperor could have interrupted the opening ceremony by declaring the SAZ was abolished.

    d) Lelouch could have given Euphemia the geass command to shoot hm as he told her he was going to do, and could have "risen from death" (whatever he meant by that) to lead a rebellion against Britannia as he had planned.

    e) Other groups could have disrupted the opening ceremony, perhaps by kidnapping Euphemia, in a bid to keep the conflict going.

    Etc., etc., etc.

    And giving Euphemia the command to kill the Japanese stopped the SAZ plan. Once the massacre started there was no need to kill Euphemia to kill the SAZ plan. Euphemia could have survived while the series continued.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    3. Every anime has that death near the end.
    What! Do you mean that the people who told me to watch shows like Pokemon and Hamtaro because they had no violence lied and there will be tragic deaths of good characters at the ends of those shows?

    Are you saying that there are tragic deaths of good and noble characters in every anime series in every genre, like kiddie shows, romance shows, relationship shows, sports shows, school shows, etc.,etc.,etc.?

    In any case, CG is the only anime I ever saw in which the creators tricking me into liking the protagonist who then senselessly murdered the only good person in the entire series

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    4. Lelouch had to do it.
    NO HE DIDN't!

    When I saw episode 23 I realized within hours or days that it would have been easy for Lelouch to capture Euphemia alive and thus that killing her was murder and far too evil a deed for me to retain any liking for, or interest in, Lelouch. That is what I have been writing about in my posts for the last year -- Lelouch killed Euphemia unnecessarily and thus it was an evil murder.

    Carefully read and reread my posts # 284 and 285 above and you will see that Lelouch had to NOT kill Euphemia in order to stay good enough to be likable and for CG to remain watchable.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 04-04-2010 at 09:03 PM.

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    It's 'likeable', to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    How can everyone understand something which is not true?

    1) how could it possibly be true that Euphemia's death:


    In order for any series to be good enough to watch it has to be at least a tiny little bit good. It is very difficult for a series to be even a tiny little bit good without likable characters. Likable characters are likable for many different reasons but one requirement that all likable characters have to meet is that they are good enough ethically to be likable.

    In CG the Britannians all see that their armed forces constantly slaughter more people than is necessary and even engage in brutal massacres, and yet none of them is is ever seen trying to do anything to reduce the excessive violence and save lives. Except for Euphemia. She insists on being present at the Battle of Narita and suddenly the Britannians who had just conducted a massacre in "Get Cornelia" behave themselves and are not seen doing anything wrong. And Euphemia refuses to do what she wants to and send the G1 to help her sister for fear it might endanger the lives of civilians.

    Euphemia is the only one on the Britannian side good enough to be likable, with the possible exception of first season Suzaku, who becomes more evil in the second season.
    My dear, an anime could have a full cast of evil characters and still be likeable. It all depends on the audience who watches it. There is always a protagonist and antagonist in every storyline, typically.

    Different anime characters have different levels of ethics.

    They can't very well gun down a Britannian princess. They are Britannian troops.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I say that guerrilla war and terrorism are even more evil than conventional warfare that obeys the laws of war, since guerrilla war and terrorism can be conducted with far less resources than conventional war. Thus much smaller groups of people can start and continue conflicts using terrorism and guerrilla warfare, making peace much harder to get and keep. And terrorism that targets civilians is much more evil than conventional war and guerrilla war that only hits military targets and just as evil as using terror against civilians in conventional or guerrilla war.

    Thus all the rebel groups who get funds and assistance from the Kyoto group in the first season are evil if they know that the Kyoto group also funds groups that engage in terrorism, such as at least one branch of the JLF, and do not protest to the Kyoto group and try to get it to stop supporting terrorists. Any one who continues to fight for the same goal that terrorists fight for is too evil to be good enough to be likable and worth being interested in as ficitonal character.

    There are many characters in CG who have many characteristics of likable characters, but since they are too evil to be good enough to be likable they should not be liked by the viewers.

    Without Euphemia, there are no good enough characters in CG and there is no point in the story without likable characters to be interested in. Euphemia's death made the story worse, bad enough to be pointless.


    If the plot twist was the SAZ plan, it might not have ended the series. Inventive writers could have found a way to keep conflict and tension at the same level as in the first season despite a partial end to the Britannian -Japanese conflict, which was only one of the conflicts in the series.

    And there are many other ways the SAZ could have failed. Lelouch could have given Euphemia a geass command to resign as Administrator of the SAZ on the grounds that she was too young and inexperienced for the job, leaving no one else idealistic enough to make it a success. Euphemia could have simply failed to keep the various factions satisfied and the SAZ could have turned into another conflict instead of the answer to the conflicts. The Emperor could have interrupted the opening ceremony by declaring the SAZ was abolished. Lelouch could have given Euphemia the geass command to shoot hm as he told her he was going to do, and could have "risen from death" (whatever he meant by that) to lead a rebellion against Britannia as he had planned. Etc., etc., etc.

    And giving Euphemia the command to kill the Japanese stopped the SAZ plan. Once the massacre started there was no need to kill Euphemia to kill the SAZ plan. Euphemia could have survived while the series continued.
    I see. So what you are saying is: "Why don't the stupid elevens/japanese/terrorists/guerrillas just stay repressed in their place so that the people of Britannia, especially Euphemia will be able to live their happy little lives while you guys don't get your basic human rights!"

    Is that it? Because that's sure what I'm getting off you.

    1) Lelouch = Dramatic
    How anti-climatic would that be? His dramatic flair is also what makes the anime so fun to watch.

    2) Lelouch = Human
    He would most probably die if he geass'd Euphemia to shoot him.

    3) Are you saying that the massacre stopped the SAZ? Sure it did. Except Euphemia was going crazy, and still would have been after that. There is no point in keeping her in the series. We all want to see sane people, don't we?


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    What! Do you mean that the people who told me to watch shows like Pokemon and Hamtaro because they had no violence lied and there will be tragic deaths of good characters at the ends of those shows?

    Are you saying that there are tragic deaths of good and noble characters in every anime series in every genre, like kiddie shows, romance shows, relationship shows, sports shows, school shows, etc.,etc.,etc.?

    NO HE DIDN't!

    But what we're talking about ^HERE is Mecha anime. There are always deaths.

    Lelouch's death WAS tragic. And there were many more tragic deaths of good people in Code Geass, other than your Precious Euphemia-sama. Would you like to serve as her slave? (I'm seriously beginning to dislike her.)

    It's hard to refute, when every single one of us here (minus you) is saying that he needed to.


    いつからかの思い出…

  16. #291
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    Yet another falsification. The peoples didn't war between each other, they warred against the empire to break free from it!

    Empires don't end wars, empires create wars. That is how they become empires, in case you didn't notice. And then the slaves fight back, and only then do you complain, saying they ruin the peace - you don't complain about the empires ruining the peace in the first place!

    When countries don't want to be empires, that is when they have peace between each other. So score 1 for the peaceful anti-empire side, and score 0 for the aggressive pro-empire side. And that's how the score will stay in this discussion.

    But do go on telling us about "the evil of nations", where people want to live in peace, and praise the "wonderful fairytale" of empires that start wars against those nations. Amazing how you make it sound like the war-starting side is the peaceful one, and those who resist are the warmongers.

    So you say that wars are created by "evil invading empires" who attack "innocent defending nations".

    No doubt there have been many wars in which you can identify who seems like "evil invading empires" and "innocent defending nations" to you.

    But there are many other wars where it would be very hard to decide which side fit either category.

    What about the "Football war"?

    What about "The War of Jenkins's Ear"? (Note: the spelling varies)

    What about the Falkland Islands War?

    And on a larger and more devastating scale, what about The War of the Triple Alliance of 1864-1870?

    What about The War of the Spanish Succession of 1701-1714?

    What about the Peloponnesian War in ancient Greece?

    What about the War of the Austrian Succession of 1740-1748?

    Who can you identify as the "evil invading empires" and the "innocent defending nations" in those wars and countless hundreds or thousands of other wars in history?

    And what about the barbarian tribes who crossed over the frozen Rhine River on Christmas Day, 406 AD? Weren't they an example of "evil invading nations" attacking an "innocent defending empire"? And aren't there many other such examples in history?

    If nations were as peace loving as you claim, hundreds and thousands of wars in history would never have happened.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-25-2010 at 10:23 PM.

  17. #292
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Likable characters are likable for many different reasons but one requirement that all likable characters have to meet is that they are good enough ethically to be likable.
    Once again, that is strictly your opinion. Usually when there are stories that show the evils of both sides, its hard to choose a which ones (if any) are "likable". Also, it depends on your story preferences. Some people like the characters in Twilight, while I can't find a single one that's "likable" (I would rather see all of them burn). Its all a matter of opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Without Euphemia, there are no good enough characters in CG and there is no point in the story without likable characters to be interested in. Euphemia's death made the story worse, bad enough to be pointless.
    Aww, your favorite character died so you do not want to watch the show anymore. Do you need a Happy Meal? Maybe we can get one with a Barbie princess doll and you can feel better.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    What! Do you mean that the people who told me to watch shows like Pokemon and Hamtaro because they had no violence lied and there will be tragic deaths of good characters at the ends of those shows?
    No, there are no deaths in either show (actually, in Pokemon...nah, let's not go there). Of course, since the story of Pokemon is not over...

    Tragic deaths are not just present in anime. Have you watched a Disney movie lately? There some crazy stuff in there like:

    -In Bambi, his mother gets shot by a hunter.
    -In The Fox and the Hound, same thing happens to Tod's mother but within 5 minutes of the start of the movie (before the start of any real dialogue).
    -In Lion King, Mufasa is basically thrown off the side of a cliff...into a wildebeest stampede (as if the former wasn't bad enough).
    -In Mulan, we get to see the slaughtered remains of the Imperial Army and a village (after a campy Disney song).

    And these are just a few. Hell, even The Princess and the Frog has the death of a lovable character in it (rather depressing really). Have you read The Little Match Girl?! Its one of THE MOST depressing things you will ever read and yes, its a kid's book.

    Death is normal part of storytelling, especially in tales involving heroes. This is fact of life and you haven't figured it out by now, if you haven't accepted it, you are in for a long ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Are you saying that there are tragic deaths of good and noble characters in every anime series in every genre, like kiddie shows, romance shows, relationship shows, sports shows, school shows, etc.,etc.,etc.?
    Not in every one, no. HOWEVER, Japan (unlike America, with the exception of some companies like Dreamworks and Disney) is not afraid to present the concept of death to children or use it (frequently) in story-telling. In Fullmetal Alchemist, we saw the death of a little girl, a devoted family man, and a needless genocide. In Gurren Lagann, we saw the death of one of the strongest, most confident characters EVER within about 8 episodes. In Code Geass, we saw the death of an innocent, naive and kindhearted princess.

    The fact of life is that stuff like this, good people dying for no reason, is not only true in story-telling, but its also true in real life.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    In any case, CG is the only anime I ever saw in which the creators tricking me into liking the protagonist who then senselessly murdered the only good person in the entire series
    I guess you could say that they tricked you. You weren't able to see what Lelouch really was BEFORE he killed Euphemia, which is honestly amazing. He played chess with his brother Clovis when they were kids and what did he do to him? Lelouch certainly wasn't above killing his siblings then (he killed one, fought another almost to death, and pointed a gun in the face of the one he later killed), so why did it surprise you when he did it a second time?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    NO HE DIDN't!
    Again, what Lelouch DID and what he COULD have done are two different things. Lelouch felt that he had to kill Euphemia. Did he REALLY have to kill her? Was that REALLY the only option? Where there other options that he COULD have taken? All these things can be debated with no one being right. Just because you feel that Lelouch COULD have saved Euphemia doesn't change the story. You just don't agree with Lelouch's decision and his reason for carrying it out; that doesn't change what he ultimately did or why he did it.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    Not going to happen becuase Im sure she's enjoying this, after all she does enjoy insanity.
    This is very true.

    Well, its proEuphie's thread. From here, the only people she is "bothering" are the people who read and respond. As I have pointed out to proEuphie already, I basically consider her a joke. I am no longer "arguing" with her as I no longer see an argument to be had.

    Speaking of which, again proEuphie, knowing that I basically consider you a joke and am really only laughing at you, you shouldn't respond to me to continue this little rant of yours. Otherwise, I will know what your true objection is: to just be generally annoying.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 03-26-2010 at 12:19 PM.
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  18. #293
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    They can't very well gun down a Britannian princess. They are Britannian troops.
    What are your writing about, from what episode? Who ever suggested that Britannian troops would have gunned down a Britannian Princess such as Cornelia or Euphemia, or that doing so was their only alternative to whatever behavior of theirs you are writing about? Please tell me a little more about what your subject is next time.


    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    I see. So what you are saying is: "Why don't the stupid elevens/japanese/terrorists/guerrillas just stay repressed in their place so that the people of Britannia, especially Euphemia will be able to live their happy little lives while you guys don't get your basic human rights!"
    Most rebellions and revolutions fail anyway. Revolutions are much better at killing a lot of people than at accomplishing their goals. I said that guerrilla warfare is even worse than conventional warfare and terrorism is even worse than guerrilla warfare. And that is true regardless of how good or evil the goals that conventional warfare, guerrilla warfare, and terrorism, are striving for.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    1) Lelouch = Dramatic
    How anti-climatic would that be? His dramatic flair is also what makes the anime so fun to watch.
    How anti-climatic would what be? I guess you are referring to my suggestion that it would have been less violent and better if Lelouch geassed Euphemia to resign as administrator of the SAZ. So you enjoy watching someone kill people unnecessarily just to be dramatic? If so, I can only hope that it will not take someone unnecessarily killing someone you love just to be dramatic for you to realize how evil and vile and disgusting that is, not fun at all, not even fun to watch on tv.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    2) Lelouch = Human
    He would most probably die if he geass'd Euphemia to shoot him.
    I wouldn't mind that, not after seeing him murder Euphemia. I started a thread called "What did Lelouch Mean When he told Euphemia he Would Miraclously Revive?" which is on the second page of the Code Geass sub forum. I never got a good answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    3) Are you saying that the massacre stopped the SAZ? Sure it did. Except Euphemia was going crazy, and still would have been after that. There is no point in keeping her in the series. We all want to see sane people, don't we?
    A live but crazy Euphemia would be a lot better off than a dead Euphemia. And would provide a necessary bit of relief from all the evil characters in the cast.

    I would rather see a live and crazy Euphemia than watch her die.

    And when Euphemie was with Lelouch right before he shot her seemed to be largely uncontrolled by the geass command. And when the geass command tried to regain control of her in the sickbay it soon went away, even though she could still talk and could still order people killed. Thus Euphemia seems to have defeated her geass command within minutes or hours. And of course the geass canceler would have been available to use on her near the beginning of the second season.

    And if you all want to see only sane people, then why do you watch Code Geass?

    In episode 24 Lelouch gloated to his confidante CC that once the rebels proclaimed Japanese Independence in the Tokyo Government Center the Emperor would have no choice but to come to meet Zero. Thus Lelouch revealed that an important part of his plan was the Emperor's visit. And Lelouch revealed that he had no plans to fight off the renewed Britannian invasions which would result instead of the Emperor's visit and that Japan would be ground into the dust in defeat, even with Lelouch in command.

    In episode 21 Lelouch was working on plans for a coup. I call those his Plan One. I deduce that those plans probably included starting a violent incident that would start a revolt and marching from the site of the incident to Tokyo to capture the government center and proclaim independence and invite the Emperor to a visit. When the Emperor arrive Lelouch would spring his trap and take over Britannia, locate and eliminate all those who had conspired against his mother, and remake the world to his plan.

    After Euphemia proposed the SAZ plan at the end of episode 21 Lelouch developed his Plan Two. I believe that it was very similar to his Plan One except that he substituted the opening ceremony of the SAZ for the time and place of the rebellion-sparking incident in his Plan One. IN episode 22 Lelouch told Euphemia that he would make her shoot him which would start a riot to start his revolution and he would rise from the deed to prove to the Japanese that he was their true messiah.

    And after the massacre started Lelouch quickly started to follow his Plan Three. Since he had no time to plan it should have been only slightly different from his Plan Two.

    If Lelouch's Plan Two had any provision for saving Euphemia from the fury of the Japanese -- by claiming that shooting him was not her fault because she had gone crazy, for example -- Lelouch could have adapted that method to his Plan Three. If Lelouch had such a plan to divert Japanese anger away from Euphie in his Plan Two, when the massacre started he would have noticed that since the Britannian soldiers were slaughtering the Japanese with great enthusiasm there were a lot more shoulders to divert the Japanese hatred onto than in his previous Plan Two and thus it would be easier to turn the Japanese anger away from the obviously insane Euphemia and onto the Britannian soldiers who had obeyed even when Euphemia was clearly insane.

    But Lelouch did not do so in his Plan Three, which means he probably had nothing planned to protect Euphemia from the misdirected Japanese anger she would face in his Plan Two. Apparently Lelouch didn't care if Euphemia lived or died, or even wanted her dead.

    Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to a meeting in Tokyo he should have realized that he had to avoid doing everything possible to avoid scaring the Emperor away from the meeting. This meant that everything that Zero did had to be considered as propaganda to lull the Emperor into a false sense of security about Zero, even if that meant giving up some propaganda value in gaining Japanese support.

    So Lelouch had to make Zero seem like a great defender of the Japanese to gain Japanese support, while not appearing too frightening to the Britannians and especially the Emperor.

    So Lelouch should have planned to have Zero, who had claimed to be the murderer of Prince Clovis, "killed" in some spectacular incident and replaced as masked leader of the Black Knights by Lelouch claiming to be someone who approved of Zero's goals but not of Zero's more extreme methods. This "new" leader would denounce the murder of Clovis and any other excessively violent deeds of Zero but but praise all the good that Zero had done and vow to fight Britannia as hard as Zero but without resorting to terrorism or any atrocities.

    Lelouch should have realized that the leader of the Black Knights had to seem as honorable, kind, and gullible as possible in order for the Emperor to feel it was safe to come, as well as seeming to be a great defender of the Japanese to keep Japanese support.

    So Lelouch should have tried to keep Britannian deaths to a minimum, especially civilian deaths, and he should have tried to keep Cornelia and especially Euphemia alive at all costs.

    Lellouch should have known that if Euphemia was killed in the uprising the Emperor would suspect that she had been deliberately killed in the false belief that would hurt the Emperor, who actually did not love his children. Thus he would believe that the rebels and their leader really hated him and it would be suicidal for him to come to Japan for talks. So Lelouch's Plan Two should have had a provision to make certain that Euphemia escaped alive.

    And when the massacre started Lelouch should not have thought: "Great! Now that Euphie has started a massacre on live television I don't have to worry about harming Zero's reputation any more and can kill her." No, Lelouch should have remembered that anyone who knew Euphie even slightly, like her father, would find it hard to believe she would order a massacre. So they would suspect that the massacre story was a lie, and the "live" television included prerecorded computer-generated images switched on at the right moment, such as a "routine" cut from one camera angle to another, or that some kind of mind control had been used on her, perhaps by Zero. General Darlton did ask "What did you do to her?" so presumably a lot of other people actually did suspect that Zero did something to Euphemia even without knowing about geass.

    Lelouch should have believed, even after the massacre started, that if Euphie was killed, the Emperor would think "Thank goodness Zero killed Euphemia and revealed how much he hates me. Now I'll never be stupid enough to trust him."

    Lelouch should have known that if he killed Euphemia the Emperor would be tens, or hundreds, or thousands, of times less likely to come to Japan and his plan would be tens, or hundreds, or thousands, of times less likely to work. Lelouch saw how easy it would have been to capture Euphemia alive. But he killed Euphemia anyway.

    So Lelouch seems to have believed that since he wanted the Emperor to walk into his trap the Emperor would certainly walk into his trap and he didn't have to worry about scaring the Emperor away. So he killed Euphemia and thus doomed his plan to fail even if VV had not been sent to kidnap Nunnally.

    So why do you write abut nobody wanting to watch a show with insane people in it when Lelouch seems to have been criminally insane in Episodes 21 to 25 and you kept on watching up to episode 50?


    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    But what we're talking about ^HERE is Mecha anime. There are always deaths.
    I don't care how many deaths there are in a tv series or how many are evil murders. So long as none of the evil murders are committed by anyone who has the slightest degree of sympathy from the audience.

    I can't stand it if the protagonist or any other (previously) sympathetic character commits an evil murder and the audience retains even the slightest degree of liking or affection of him..

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Lelouch's death WAS tragic. And there were many more tragic deaths of good people in Code Geass, other than your Precious Euphemia-sama. Would you like to serve as her slave? (I'm seriously beginning to dislike her.)
    No, Lelouch's death was not tragic. If Suzaku had attacked Lelouch minutes or hours after Euphemia's senseless murder and they had killed each other and destroyed everything that they had hoped for, as a result of Lelouch going evil and senselessly murdering Euphemia, than I would have hated Code Geass but at least I would have to admit that Euphemia's death made a slight degree of dramatic sense if the show was considered to be a dark and depressing tragedy. And Lelouch's death would have been tragic but not undeserved.

    But that did not happen and Lelouch's foul and disgusting murder of Euphemia was only one of his several crimes that eventually lead to his far too anti-climatic death. And who else besides Euphemia was a good person and died a tragic death in Code Geass? Shirley was the second best character (after Euphemia) who died in Code Geass and she had tried to kill Villetta and was not as innocent as she looked.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    It's hard to refute, when every single one of us here (minus you) is saying that he needed to.
    As I have said from the beginning, Lelouch could have captured Euphemia alive just as fast, just as easy,and just as safely for himself as he killed her. And If Euphemia had been captured and confined she would be no more likely to kill more Japanese people in the future than any free person would have been. Thus Lelouch had no good and humane reason, like protecting the Japanese from her, for killing Euphemia that capturing her alive would not have achieved just as well. So Lelouch did not have to kill Euphemia to achieve any good or humane goal.

    And if Lelouch killed Euphemia unnecessarily killing her was an evil murder.

    And some people say that Lelouch killed Euphemia to gain support from the Japanese. But that was an evil motive for killing someone. I have always hated every historical character who ever killed anyone for political gain and I see no reason to be more easygoing with fictional characters.

    And I have demonstrated that Lelouch needed Euphemia alive and killed her anyway. See, for example, my posts 284 and 285 above.

    I say that my clear logic is more compelling that the desire of a dozen or two fans to keep on admiring Lelouch. Clearly Lelouch did not need to kill Euphemia and as I point out earlier in this post he had to keep her alive for his plans to have even the slightest chance of succeeding.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 04-03-2010 at 09:41 PM.

  19. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    In order for any series to be good enough to watch it has to be at least a tiny little bit good. It is very difficult for a series to be even a tiny little bit good without likable characters. Likable characters are likable for many different reasons but one requirement that all likable characters have to meet is that they are good enough ethically to be likable.

    There are many characters in CG who have many characteristics of likable characters, but since they are too evil to be good enough to be likable they should not be liked by the viewers.

    Without Euphemia, there are no good enough characters in CG and there is no point in the story without likable characters to be interested in. Euphemia's death made the story worse, bad enough to be pointless.
    Your opinion but you're far too critical. Who says that in order for a character to be liked they have to have good/positive ethics? Nice characters may be good morally but most people find them to be more dull, most people find that they lack a flawed appeal and you know what? That's something all humans are...flawed. One person's death hardly makes the show pointless/unwatchable to anyone but you, and flaws and hard times is what adds complexity to characters by some stretch or another whether it be directly or indirectly.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    What! Do you mean that the people who told me to watch shows like Pokemon and Hamtaro because they had no violence lied and there will be tragic deaths of good characters at the ends of those shows?
    ...Actually if you want to be technical Ash dies in Episode 23 and I dare you to find someone at fault there. The ghost Pokémon? lol

    Also I'd like to point out that while there are no permanent deaths in either there is also technically violence in Pokémon. Attacking each other with flames, electricity, rocks etc. for the sake of getting "stronger"? Animal fighting doesn't get on your nerves? With your insane standards I'm shocked (or maybe not...)

    (I'm just screwing with you at this point if you couldn't tell.)

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Are you saying that there are tragic deaths of good and noble characters in every anime series in every genre, like kiddie shows, romance shows, relationship shows, sports shows, school shows, etc.,etc.,etc.?

    In any case, CG is the only anime I ever saw in which the creators tricking me into liking the protagonist who then senselessly murdered the only good person in the entire series
    No. but there are is usually at least one death in most mature relate-able or relevant anime (this bars ones like sports anime for the most part since death isn't normally relative to events that take place in those sorts of shows) but even so there are exceptions for those unlikely ones

    And while I'm at it I'll go ahead and say that Japan has less of an issue with the whole 'death' concept and children tend to learn various facts of life earlier there than here.
    Last edited by SakuraFox512; 03-26-2010 at 11:47 PM.



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  20. #295
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SakuraFox512 View Post
    Your opinion but you're far too critical. Who says that in order for a character to be liked they have to have good/positive ethics? Nice characters may be good morally but most people find them to be more dull, most people find that they lack a flawed appeal and you know what? That's something all humans are...flawed. One person's death hardly makes the show pointless/unwatchable to anyone but you, and flaws and hard times is what adds complexity to characters by some stretch or another whether it be directly or indirectly.
    There is a difference between nice characters and characters with good ethics. Euphemia was nice and had good ethics. Some of the other characters might have been nice, such as possibly Nunnally, Tianzi, Kaguya, or Rollo, but were evil because they killed a lot of people unnecessarily. Their ethics were bad.

    In one of my previous posts I said that Euphemia the individual character was much more important to me than Euphemia's personality. I pointed out that two people with opposite personality types could be equally good or evil and that people with the same personality type could be opposite on the good to evil spectrum, one being very good and one being very evil.

    And it is possible for a harsh and nasty person to be much more good than a nice and likable person. A good historical example is Emperor Nicephorus II Phocus who was very good (for a general) but made people hate him because of his unlikeable personality and his various well-intentioned but unpopular measures. His successor John I Tzimskes was much more evil (he brutally murdered his uncle Nicephorus II to get the throne, for example) but very likable and popular.

    Anyway, I don't see how desiring that protagonists and characters the audience likes or identifies with never kill anyone they know that they don't need to kill is setting an insanely high standard. That does not seem like a very high ethical requirement to me.

    Good people can have plenty of flaws which do not make them evil. As an obvious example, newborn babies are not the least bit evil (and not the least bit good either, since they don't know anything about the world yet) but they are perfectly useless as leaders or doers (and thus infinitely flawed for such purposes) because they don't know even the first thing about the world yet.

    People who know a lot more than newborn babies still never know everything that they might possibly need to know in some situations. And so people who are old enough to be lead characters in fiction can be flawed because of their imperfect understanding of how the world works and how to get along with and influence people. They can have all kinds of silly or even bizarre customs and ideas and phobias and mental problems which considerably reduce their effectiveness.

    A large proportion of historical characters seem to have had significant flaws and imperfections which had nothing to do with how good or evil they were.

    (03/28/10) For example, Vice-Admiral Sir George Tryon and his chief subordinates in the Mediterranean Fleet on June 22, 1893 were loyal officers of the British navy but might has well have been enemy sailors firing a volley at the Mediterranean Fleet. The death and destruction to their own ships and men they caused due to their high but insufficient professional skills and their character flaws would have been fairly satisfying to an attacking enemy force. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tryon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victoria_%281887%29

    And I just remembered that in Neon Genesis Evangelion ALL the main characters had lots of personality flaws. Very few viewers would think that the three fourteen-year-old EVA pilots were evil, unless killing a few Angels to save billions of Humans is evil, but Shinji, Rei, and Asuka's personalities seemed almost entirely personality flaws.(03/28/10)


    Unlike anime fans who assume that only doing evil deeds qualifies as an interesting flaw, I know that everyone, including those who are good enough for me to like, has plenty of interesting (or sometimes dull and boring) flaws which have nothing to do with how good or evil they are.

    Euphemia's death makes the show unwatchable to me because she was the only character who was good enough to try to avoid causing unnecessary violence and death and thus the only character who was good enough to be likable to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by SakuraFox512 View Post
    ...Actually if you want to be technical Ash dies in Episode 23 and I dare you to find someone at fault there. The ghost Pokémon? lol

    Also I'd like to point out that while there are no permanent deaths in either there is also technically violence in Pokémon. Attacking each other with flames, electricity, rocks etc. for the sake of getting "stronger"? Animal fighting doesn't get on your nerves? With your insane standards I'm shocked (or maybe not...)

    (I'm just screwing with you at this point if you couldn't tell.)
    My standards are really quite low so I don't bother much with such minor evil details of various shows.


    Quote Originally Posted by SakuraFox512 View Post
    No. but there are is usually at least one death in most mature relate-able or relevant anime (this bars ones like sports anime for the most part since death isn't normally relative to events that take place in those sorts of shows) but even so there are exceptions for those unlikely ones

    And while I'm at it I'll go ahead and say that Japan has less of an issue with the whole 'death' concept and children tend to learn various facts of life earlier there than here.
    But that has nothing to do with the disgusting and depressing fact that Lelouch senselessly killed someone who he clearly did not have to kill and that most of the audience still continued to like him despite that. See my posts 284, 285, and 293 above for explanations of how senseless killing Euphemia was.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-29-2010 at 09:24 PM.

  21. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Anyway, I don't see how desiring that protagonists and characters the audience identifies with never kill anyone they know that they don't need to kill is setting an insanely high standard That does not seem like a very high ethical requirement to me.
    You are assuming, once again, that any given story needs to have a good protagonist or even a clear "hero" (if any are even present), which again, is not always the case. Gone are the days of Dick Dastardly villains (this is especially true if you are not five). Also, simply liking a character doesn't mean that they "identify" with them. I like Cornelia; doesn't mean I identify with her, exactly.

    The high standard comes in at "they know that they don't need to kill". This makes a very difficult moral conundrum that I don't think even YOU understand. This calls into question of who's fit to kill. In other words, what is the qualification that a "villain" needs to have in order for the "hero" to kill them without it counting as murder? As I have told you, this basically puts a "price" on the life of a "villain", which is more than a little messed up coming from a person who has been saying that every second of every life is precious.

    By many technical accounts, most villains didn't need to be killed; they easily could have been captured. For example, in the Disney movie Mulan, Mulan kills Shan-Yu by rocketing him into a fireworks tower. Since Shan-Yu already had most of his army killed (thanks to Mulan) and the Emperor was in a safe place (once again, thanks to Mulan), Shan-Yu couldn't have been too much of a threat, not with his "army" consisting of five guys and a falcon.

    Because of this, it could be argued that killing him was less about saving China and more about revenge against HIM for trying to take it over. Shan-Yu was already pinned down. He could have been taken into custody; Mulan didn't HAVE to kill him. Does this make her evil (choose you answer wisely)?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Euphemia's death makes the show unwatchable to me because she was the only character who was good enough to try to avoid causing unnecessary violence and death and thus the only character who was good enough to be likable to me.
    Like I said, that's your opinion and you are not the first person to make such an opinion. However, just like EVERY person who has made the opinion of "I-don't-want-to-watch-this-show-anymore-because-my-favorite-character-died, bork, bork, bork!!", this shows that you are more than just a little immature.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But that has nothing to do with the disgusting and depressing fact that Lelouch senselessly killed someone who he clearly did not have to kill and that most of the audience still continued to like him despite that.
    I can complain about how Bella in Twilight keeps whining about how Jacob kills people (people who are trying to kill HER, for heaven sake!!), but that neither stops nor changes the fact that:

    1. Jacob DID kill people (to save Bella's life...again...and again...and again).

    2. People still like Jacob.

    3. Me just sitting around and complaining about it to people who LIKE Jacob is futile and not going to change a damn thing.

    Same thing goes for you and Code Geass. Yes, you think what Lelouch did was "disgusting and depressing". Are going to DO something about it or just sit there on your computer? I know your opinion, we ALL do; we get it. Is there something you plan on doing about it?
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  22. #297
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Something has messed up the spelling in many or all of the posts. I can edit my spelling in my posts, and each of you can edit the spelling in your posts, but what is the point if something is going to mess up the spelling again? I know that I never wrote "2" for "to" but it now appears in a lot of my posts and some of other people's posts as well.

    There it goes again. I corrected about four or five spelling errors in this post but as soon as I posted it at least a dozen spelling errors appeared. Has this forum adopted automatic phonetic spelling or what?

    PS When I edit this post the spelling appears normal.

    PPS but when I hit "save" the spelling instantly goes bad.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 04-01-2010 at 10:26 PM.

  23. #298
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    玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華.'s Avatar
    Gil
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    It is Ace's April Fool joke.


    いつからかの思い出…

  24. #299
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Default Phooey on Ace!

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    It is Ace's April Fool joke.
    Then phooey on Ace, whoever he is.

  25. #300
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    玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華. has a reputation beyond repute 玲華.'s Avatar
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    It's Kaitou Ace, moderator lol ;p messed up the coding.

    Edit: ...sine yesterday. It drove me crazy but I'm used to it now.


    いつからかの思い出…

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