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Thread: *SPOILERS* The shot that killed My Love for Anime

  1. #251
    桜流し
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Oh he is so much worse.

    Yup. I'm guessing he doesn't actually have a soft side, like Lelouch does, and doesn't heve to struggle to maintain a cold and calm facade...


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    No, I haven't.
    ...Basically Izumi in a Zero outfit, and Lelouch in her schoolgirl one.
    Ara, I can't find the pic right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    I hate that one. NoN was cool because it was very AU. All the others were... kind of awful....
    Guess so. >_< Too much of an epic anime.
    Last edited by Rei; 03-11-2010 at 08:37 PM.


    「そんな顔をしないで。また会えるよ、シンジ君」
    ---

    もう二度と会えないなんて信じられない
    まだ何も伝えてない
    まだ何も伝えてない


    I'm sorry (not) sorry.

  2. #252
    Cardinal of Eden Vital Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Yup. I'm guessing he doesn't actually have a soft side, like Lelouch does, and doesn't heve to struggle to maintain a cold and calm facade...
    He got screwed by his family and went really crazy because of it. He would have been cool in the anime where he could have been explored more.




    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    ...Basically Izumi in a Zero outfit, and Lelouch in her schoolgirl one.
    Ara, I can't find the pic right now.
    Hope you can find it later. I see alot of pictures of Luluko in the ashford uniform. It's pretty funny.



    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Guess so. >_< Too much of an epic anime.
    It's to epic for manga format!
    I guess the other interpretations(sp?) of the way it could have worked are just lame. The Nunnally was was good because they even changed what Geass was.

    Wow, we're off topic.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    He got screwed by his family and went really crazy because of it. He would have been cool in the anime where he could have been explored more.


    Both of them were screwed over by their family. Yup in the anime he was underdeveloped; I guess he was considered a minor character. And his personality was basically very one-dimensional.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Hope you can find it later. I see alot of pictures of Luluko in the ashford uniform. It's pretty funny.
    Heh maybe because Lelouch looks asexual anyway. But he's still my favorite anime character.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    It's to epic for manga format!
    I guess the other interpretations(sp?) of the way it could have worked are just lame. The Nunnally was was good because they even changed what Geass was.

    Wow, we're off topic.
    Yeah there was too much action and emotions with the voice actors and all...much harder to portray in the manga format, where there's no animation, everything's drawn in still life.

    Because the thread starter isn't responding...;p

    Even more off topic, I was thinking of writing a FFVII-Code Geass fanfic, since I don't see any on FF.net yet. It's not likely to turn out very political though....

    -shudders- Never read M-rated Silent Hill fanfics.


    「そんな顔をしないで。また会えるよ、シンジ君」
    ---

    もう二度と会えないなんて信じられない
    まだ何も伝えてない
    まだ何も伝えてない


    I'm sorry (not) sorry.

  4. #254
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimi no kioku View Post
    Exactly. Marina was a fool in every sense of the word.
    If there is proof (such as hearing her think it) that Marina was thinking only about her image when she refused the gun she was being very selfish when the lives of children where at stake and that was a bad decision, to say the least.

    But I would still like more than any other [/]Gundam 00[/I] character that I have heard about. But I am not going to watch the series just for her. Since wolfgirl90 says that the (ethically) best characters in a Bandai series are usually killed, and since Marina sounds like she is (unfortunately for the innocent people in her world) the ethically best character in the series there should be a strong probability that if I watched the series I would come to like and respect her (despite various flaws) and then see her get killed.

    Perhaps by one of the evil protagonists belonging to Celestial Being, or by one of their more evil opponents, or perhaps by one of their even worse opponents, or perhaps a member of the opponent group that was worst of all. I can't see any good possibilities there.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimi no kioku View Post
    By the way, I like evil characters sometimes, I find them far more interesting than goody-goody-two-shoes.
    I only like characters who are good enough not to be evil. And my standards are not very high. I merely demand that they never, never kill even one person that they don't need to. A person can have a lot of flaws while being good enough to never kill even a single person they don't need to.

    And even persons who are really good and never do anything wrong can be very interesting and complex.

    For example, with normal people guilt is more or less proportional to the bad deeds that they do. But with really evil or really good people guilt feelings are inversely proportional to how guilty they actually are. Evil people - like almost any Code Geass character -- feel very little guilt while really good people feel a lot of guilt. Thus a good person like Euphemia could be interesting because of the the guilt she feels despite doing a lot of good and avoiding doing anything evil.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-11-2010 at 11:10 PM.

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    If there is proof (such as hearing her think it) that Marina was thinking only about her image when she refused the gun she was being very selfish when the lives of children where at stake and that was a bad decision, to say the least.
    She says "If I take the gun, I'll never be able to look at these children again." even though one of the kids tried to protect them with a gun earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But I would still like more than any other [/]Gundam 00[/i] character that I have heard about. But I am not going to watch the series just for her. Since wolfgirl90 says that the (ethically) best characters in a Bandai series are usually killed, and since Marina sounds like she is (unfortunately for the innocent people in her world) the ethically best character in the series there should be a strong probability that if I watched the series I would come to like and respect her (despite various flaws) and then see her get killed.
    Unfortunately Marina doesn't die, although he death in the englush dub would have been funny with her robot voice. I would have lol'd when she died. I would have liked Ali Al-Saachez to own her, then Setsuna would want to klill him even more.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Perhaps by one of the evil protagonists belonging to Celestial Being, or by one of their more evil opponents, or perhaps by one of their even worse opponents, or perhaps a member of the opponent group that was worst of all. I can't see any good possibilities there.
    Celestial Being were not evil. A-Laws did arrest her at the beginning of season 2 because of her involvement in Celestial Being.
    Sestuna wasn't evil, he just hated the way the world was. He wanted to find out why the world was so twisted. besides killing his parents and joining the KPSA, he didn't do anything evil in season 1. The only thing I hold against him is on episode 20 of season 2
     
    He kills Anew Returner when her mind gets controlled by Ribbons




    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I only like characters who are good enough not to be evil. And my standards are not very high. I merely demand that they never, never kill even one person that they don't need to. A person can have a lot of flaws while being good enough to never kill even a single person they don't need to.
    You're standard are INSANELY high. You think characters are evil because of one thing they do in the series. In fact, you are assuming Celestial Being is evil, and you've never seen the series.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And even persons who are really good and never do anything wrong can be very interesting and complex.
    But many people find those characters boring.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    For example, with normal people guilt is more or less proportional to the bad deeds that they do. But with really evil or really good people guilt feelings are inversely proportional to how guilty they actually are. Evil people - like almost any Code Geass character -- feel very little guilt while really good people feel a lot of guilt. Thus a good person like Euphemia could be interesting because of the the guilt she feels despite doing a lot of good and avoiding doing anything evil.
    Good people don't have anything to angst over. What could they angst over "I couldn't stop Marcus from killing 2000 people.... I practically killed them...."
    Saji Crossroad from Gundam 00 is your type of character!



    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post

    Both of them were screwed over by their family. Yup in the anime he was underdeveloped; I guess he was considered a minor character. And his personality was basically very one-dimensional.
    Agreed. He was just a tool.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Heh maybe because Lelouch looks asexual anyway. But he's still my favorite anime character.
    I thought he did until I watched Gundam. Revive, Regene, and Tieria are the worst.
    Have you seen the picture drama with Student Council cross dressing?

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Yeah there was too much action and emotions with the voice actors and all...much harder to portray in the manga format, where there's no animation, everything's drawn in still life.
    I think so.


    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Even more off topic, I was thinking of writing a FFVII-Code Geass fanfic, since I don't see any on FF.net yet. It's not likely to turn out very political though....
    That would be pretty cool.


    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    -shudders- Never read M-rated Silent Hill fanfics
    I can only imagine....
    Last edited by Rolo Vi Britannia; 03-12-2010 at 08:18 AM.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  6. #256
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    If there is proof (such as hearing her think it) that Marina was thinking only about her image when she refused the gun she was being very selfish when the lives of children where at stake and that was a bad decision, to say the least.
    She says, right to Shirin's face, that she would never be able to look into the eyes of the children again if she took the gun (again, this is a gun that was meant to defend them from the A-Laws that were ALREADY chasing them).

    Of course, you haven't even seen the series (and don't want to), so you really shouldn't be asking for proof about anybody from anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Since wolfgirl90 says that the (ethically) best characters in a Bandai series are usually killed, and since Marina sounds like she is (unfortunately for the innocent people in her world) the ethically best character in the series there should be a strong probability that if I watched the series I would come to like and respect her (despite various flaws) and then see her get killed.
    I never said that the "ethically best characters" (whatever the hell that means as far as Sunrise characters are concerned) are usually killed. In fact if Marina (so far; we still have the movie to get through), Relena and Lacus are any indication, they usually live (Euphemia is really the only other pacifistic princess that has been killed; you were just unlucky, I guess).

    Of course, I would love to see Relena get blown up or Marina get shot. While Relena at least admits that fighting is sometimes necessary, her hypocrisy goes further than that. And while Marina is not as naive as Euphemia, she still is. Like I said, its one thing to not want people to fight when you are not involved, but to choose not to fight or to ignore it when you or your loved ones (or your ENTIRE FREAKING COUNTRY) are being actively attacked because of your "morals" or because of how people will view you is a little more than irresponsible.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I only like characters who are good enough not to be evil. And my standards are not very high. I merely demand that they never, never kill even one person that they don't need to.
    Uhh...troll, your standards are VERY high. You "demand" (as if you have the right to demand anything from anybody) that characters adhere to YOUR standards of "good" and "evil", which are childish and immature to say the least (idiotic and foolish to say the worst).

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Thus a good person like Euphemia could be interesting because of the the guilt she feels despite doing a lot of good and avoiding doing anything evil.
    Once again, you are missing the point. Euphemia didn't feel "guilt" (for lack of a better word; I don't really think that she felt guilty of anything) for absolutely no reason; she felt this way because of her connection to Britannia. Despite the "good" that she was doing (honestly, besides the SAZ [which failed], what other "good" did this girl do?), she was still a Britannian princess. While "different" from the other Britannians, she was still one of them nonetheless. This is why she felt "guilt".

    Because of this, Euphemia isn't a very complicated character; she reacts like any other normal character.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    [color]Even more off topic, I was thinking of writing a FFVII-Code Geass fanfic, since I don't see any on FF.net yet. It's not likely to turn out very political though....

    -shudders- Never read M-rated Silent Hill fanfics.
    Sounds awesome. Instead of a F.L.E.I.J.A being dropped on Pendragon, it could be Sephiroth. Same amount of destruction, yes?

    M-rated Silent Hill fanfics?
    ...
    ...
    ...I can only imagine...I can ONLY imagine...
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 03-12-2010 at 06:04 PM.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    And while Marina is not as naive as Euphemia,
    Hahahahaha!
    At leas it was possible to like Euphy.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  8. #258
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Response to post # 246. Unfinished 03/13/10.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Again: the Point, the POINT.

    The whole point behind that scene was to show that a naive girl Won't last long on the cruel battlefield that is portrayed in Code Geass. And she wasn't supposed to Live On and Become More Experienced, her initial naivety Already Killed her.
    But naive girls do last long in the battlefield that is Code Geass. It seems logical that that Euphemia was more naive at fifteen than at sixteen, still more naive at fourteen, still more naive at thirteen, and so on. It seems reasonable to believe that there are hundreds of millions of boys and girls aged fourteen and younger who are at least as naive as Euphemia in the population of the world of Code Geass.

    Assume that at the beginning of Code Geass there were three hundred million children aged twelve and younger in the fictional world of Code Geass and each of them was at least as naive as Euphemia. A few million of them might have been killed when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used on Toyko and Pendragon and a few million may have died of diseases and malnutrition in underdeveloped lands, and tens or hundreds of thousands would have been killed in accidents, by the time of the last episode. So about 290,000,0000 to 295,000,000 children at least as naive as Euphemia would have survived the course of the series.

    And each of those naive children would have naively decided to spend time with one or more relatives, friends, and other people that he or she knew and trusted at least once and probably several times a day in the naive belief that none of those trusted people would try to harm him or her. And only a few thousands or tens of thousands of those trusted people betrayed the naive child enough to kill him or her.

    Statistically, Euphemia's naive belief that her long-lost brother was not evil enough to try to kill her was very reasonable. It was just extremely bad luck for her that Lelouch was so exceptionally evil, so evil that only one out of tens of thousands of people who were naively trusted ever did anything as evil as he did.

    That scene does not show that a naive girl will not last long on the battlefield of Code Geass, it shows that Lelouch was far more evil than any of the persons you or I have ever spent time with in the naive (but justified by the result) belief that they would never kill you or me, as evil as one person out of tens of thousands.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Well it shows that you did care about the evil. And sadly, the audience DOES empathise, care about and coincidentally Happen to like Lelouch.
    Which I find very depressing. Apparently if an audience follows a protagonists for as few as ten hours of screen time they will not stop liking him and start hating him even when he does something as bad as any hated villain does.

    But on the bright side if an audience followed the adventures of a good protagonist like Euphemia for as few as ten hours of screen time they would like her so much that they would be horrified by her murder and hate her murderer and demand that she be brought back to life.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    And that's exactly what you should have continued doing! The storyline was and is good. Lelouch killed many others before Euphemia, if you didn't notice. All those britannian soldiers. I don't get why you care so much about Euphemia's death when there were so many others. Quote the Eunuch Generals:

    "Zero, when you walk, do you try to avoid stepping on the insects on the ground?"
    NO!

    I am ashamed that it took me so long to realize that Lelouch was too evil for me to like. I feel like a fool for hoping that he would defeat Mao when I should have been hoping that Mao would defeat him.

    The storyline was bad. There is no point in telling the story of a fictional world after the only leader who wants to do good is killed. Without a leader who wants to do good there is no hope that good will be done. Without Euphemia the world of Code geass was doomed to horror and despair. There is no point in telling stories set in such a hopeless world. That would be as pointless and depressing as telling stories set in our world.

    Why should anyone be upset about the many Britannian soldiers that Lelouch killed before killing Euphemia which did not upset me and make me hate the show (and didn't make you hate the show either)? The Britannian army practices massacres. Why should I care how many members of a military which practices massacres are killed in battle? Anyway, in a story about war the viewers kind of expect to see soldiers killed in battle and are not usually upset by it unless it is a main character. Perhaps we should be, but we are not.

    I was so upset by Euphemia's death because it was so obviously and brazenly unnecessary and because Euphemia was more good than all the other named characters combined. Her death was a worse event than the deaths of all the other characters combined would be.

    Your quote has made be lose all respect for the Eunuch Generals. Anyone who could say something like that is too evil for me to ever like. I had a faint hope that in the second season there might be new military leaders who, like Euphemia, had sufficient respect for Human life, but your quote has destroyed that faint hope and makes me even more glad I never watched the second season.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Yes so Euphemia's death was just another event in a long, long chain of deaths. Unfortunately Euphemia was naive. Naive enough to meet Zero personally. And that was how she was rewarded, no? And the wheel goes round and round and round...that's how the plot works. And it works well, I might tell you. No matter how grieved you are, you still have to get over it for the next part of the anime. It's Sunrise's style.
    Nobody should get over Euphemia's death for the next part of the anime, because there is no point in continuing a story after all the good characters are dead. There is no point in fiction about evil characters fighting other evil characters with no hope that anyone who wants to do good will succeed because there isn't anyone who wants to do good. We have history books for those who like that kind of depressing story.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Well they figured right! Looking by the huge amount of Lelouch fans.
    Which I find extremely depressing.


    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    It wasn't senseless murder if you look at it. But maybe it will be if you keep making it out to yourself that it is so.
    Killing someone who is as easy to capture as Euphemia would have been is just as evil as killing someone who is already your prisoner.

    If Euphemia was captured and confined she would be no more dangerous to the Japanese than if she was dead. Capturing her and killing her would be equally safe for the Japanese. Capturing her would be at least as fast, as easy, and as safe for Lelouch as killing her would be. Thus there was no possible good and humane reason to kill Euphemia instead of capturing her.

    Many people claim that Lelouch killed Euphemia for political and military gain for his cause. Murder for political or military gain for your cause is evil and disgusting. And I have demonstrated over and over again that Lelouch needed a live Euphemia for the Black Rebellion to work and killed her anyway, which is pretty much a senseless murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    It was an accident. Lelouch, in an amused tone was trying to illustrate the power of his Geass and just so happened to jokingly give that command, sparked by what was going on outside. We could all see the horrified expression on his face when he knows Euphemia has fallen under his Geass, because he knows what is going to happen.
    Giving her the geass command was an accident. Pointing the gun at her and pulling the trigger was deliberate murder and not an accident.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    The last resort was to kill her.
    No, that was apparently Lelouch's first resort for some reason. Lelouch HAD to see that it would be very easy to capture Euphemia if he was not very incompetent. But he killed Euphemia anyway. The fact that Lelouch killed Euphemia when it was so obvious that he could capture her alive is the starting point for all the negative impact that Code Geass has had on me.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    And as We All Know, from the start Lelouch's main aim is to overthrow Britannia, no matter what. Like I said earlier, everyone you think is doing evil does not consider it evil, merely as part of the process to get what they really want.

    Not excluding Euphemia.
    I do not judge someone evil for doing things that they consider evil, I judge them evil for doing things that I consider evil and/or that they consider evil. If someone does some thing that he considers evil, or I consider evil, or both of us consider evil, he is evil in my opinion and and I can not like him as a fictional character. I can not like a fictional character who does something he considers good and I consider evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    That would then depend on the ethics of the person you are referring to. If, as mentioned, you had low levels of moral ethics (by your own level, I sure don't see a whole lot of people lining up to protest) you wouldn't mind.
    Nobody should ever accept a protagonist who kills even one person unnecessarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    I say that in that particular massacre, it was an accident. (Fine, a planned accident by the sunrise producers if you want to go down that road.) Can you prove that Lelouch was trying to gain something During said massacre?
    Yes, the massacre was an accident, which was the result of Lelouch wanting to sabotage the SAZ opening. He told Euphemia that he would make her shoot him, which would cause a riot and spark his revolution. He said that when he came back to life (I started a thread to discuss what he meant) it would prove to the Japanese that he was their real messiah and Euphemia was a false messiah.

    Did Lelouch expect that the angry Japanese, starting to riot, would boo Euphie and throw rotten tomatoes at her? No, he expected that they would try to kill her. And apparently he didn't care or even hoped that they would succeed in killing her.

    And Lelouch apparently expected and wanted hundreds or thousands of Japanese who he tricking into rioting to be shot down by he Britannians. Lelouch probably expected there would be about as much bloodshed as in the actual massacre before the Black Knights came to rescue the survivors.

    If Lelouch had a plan to save Euphemia from the angry Japanese after she shot him, such as telling them that she had gone crazy, he could have adapted that plan to the circumstances of the massacre. Since he didn't do that, apparently he didn't care if Euphie survived or even wanted her dead.

    Of course Lelouch could have planned to simply make Euphemia resign as administrator, saying she was too young and inexperienced for such a difficult and complex and dangerous job. That would have killed the SAZ and made Zero and the Black Knights the only hope for millions of Japanese without killing Euphie.

    Wolfgirl90, and others, say that Lelouch killed Euphemia to gain support from the Japanese, and thus that he sought to gain something during the massacre.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    ...It is considered so.
    What is considered what?

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Euphemia started shooting first. Then she ordered the soldiers to start killing. They, of course have no choice but to obey and say, "Yes, your Highness," and carry out orders unquestionably. It does not help if Euphemia was captured. The country would see her struggling to escape. And most likely she would run from Lelouch in the first place, and his stamina is worse than hers...I digress.
    You are "dead" wrong about the Britannian soldiers. Almost no one has ever been forced to take part in a massacre against their will. Only a tiny proportion of the millions of persons who killed people in various massacres in history were forced to kill against their will. For example, the post-war German legal authorities have investigated every claim that someone who took part in the Holocaust was forced against his will and not a single claim has stood up. There is no proof that even a single person was ever killed, or imprisoned, or fined, or demoted, or seriously punished, for refusing to kill Jews, and enormous evidence that the perpetrators volunteered to kill.

    An investigation after World war II showed that almost half the time US soldiers didn't fire their guns in battle or fired wildly into the air, unable to force themselves to kill despite the enemy provoking them by shooting at them. And how many of those millions of instances of not doing their duty were punished at the time by execution, corporal punishment, fines, demotion, imprisonment, dishonorable discharge, or any other severe punishment, even when anyone noticed at the time? Only a tiny proportion of them. US soldiers who did fight fiercely in battle against enemies who were trying to kill them could not claim that they were forced to kill in battle and would be killed or severely punished by their superiors if they did not.

    And if a U.S. officer ordered a evil massacre do you think that he would after ward take the trouble to ferret out and punish the large proportion of soldiers who had not killed anyone? Even if he was evil enough to want to punish them for not doing evil, why bother?

    I don't care how much harsher the discipline in the Britannian Army may be than the U.S. Army, or how much more evil an institution it may be. It would be inviting mutiny to try to force armed men to do something they considered to be evil. See, for example the Sepoy Mutiny of 1857.

    Any Britannian soldiers who obeyed the order to kill (which must have been at least a majority of them) did so because they had no objections to massacring Japanese people, not because they were forced to kill.

    Using Euphemia as a hostage to stop the massacre would have a good chance of working. You just claim that it wouldn't work because you don't want to admit that Lelouch might have let tens, or hundreds, or thousands of Japanese get killed by not trying to use Euphemia as a hostage and stop the massacre.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Oh We Do Seem To Forget that Lelouch is human, and that humans err. His plans aren't always perfect. And how do you expect him to think straight when a crazed Euphemia is running around shooting japanese, with her troops?
    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    So he took the simple solution of killing her.




    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    He needed to kill her. It was a last-ditch attempt. And oh, the plot, the plot.
    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Ohhhhhh are we talking mecha ethics here? Because the rules always bend according to the situation, my dear. Even in real life.
    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    The human psyche is a complicated thing.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-13-2010 at 12:26 AM.

  9. #259
    Member Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch's Avatar
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    Proeuphy. I like Euphy, really I do. You just might kill her fanbase doing this. Also, Watch. R2. Lelouch does a lot of good in R2. You might forgive him if you watch it. I hated him after Euphy's death. Oh, and if everybody is so evil, then go for the lesser of two evils.

    HOLLOW LELOUCH

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    She says "If I take the gun, I'll never be able to look at these children again." even though one of the kids tried to protect them with a gun earlier.
    ...
    Reminiscent of Allelujah.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Unfortunately Marina doesn't die, although he death in the english dub would have been funny with her robot voice. I would have lol'd when she died. I would have liked Ali Al-Saachez to own her, then Setsuna would want to kill him even more.


    Celestial Being were not evil. A-Laws did arrest her at the beginning of season 2 because of her involvement in Celestial Being.
    Sestuna wasn't evil, he just hated the way the world was. He wanted to find out why the world was so twisted. besides killing his parents and joining the KPSA, he didn't do anything evil in season 1. The only thing I hold against him is on episode 20 of season 2
     
    He kills Anew Returner when her mind gets controlled by Ribbons





    You're standard are INSANELY high. You think characters are evil because of one thing they do in the series. In fact, you are assuming Celestial Being is evil, and you've never seen the series.
    Agreed. I mean, even good people accidentally kill others.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    But many people find those characters boring.


    Good people don't have anything to angst over. What could they angst over "I couldn't stop Marcus from killing 2000 people.... I practically killed them...."
    Saji Crossroad from Gundam 00 is your type of character!
    Saji is ANGST. Poor Conflicted guy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Agreed. He was just a tool.


    I thought he did until I watched Gundam. Revive, Regene, and Tieria are the worst.
    Have you seen the picture drama with Student Council cross dressing?



    I can only imagine....
    I happened to get into Gundam 00 before Code Geass...Tieria's my favorite Gundam Meister. Veda...Veda...!


    Nope I haven't ....


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Sounds awesome. Instead of a F.L.E.I.J.A being dropped on Pendragon, it could be Sephiroth. Same amount of destruction, yes?

    M-rated Silent Hill fanfics?
    ...
    ...
    ...I can only imagine...I can ONLY imagine...
    Ah Sephiroth! Yep, him and his long sword. And lots more threatening. The ending of FFVII was...not really to my liking. It was dumb, in other words. But I suppose Cloud Has to win because he's the main character and has to live on lol.

    ...
    ...
    ...hospital + lots of nurses + doctors + Pyramid head. Not pretty...
    It gave me chills as to how someone could come up with that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow Lelouch View Post
    Proeuphy. I like Euphy, really I do. You just might kill her fanbase doing this. Also, Watch. R2. Lelouch does a lot of good in R2. You might forgive him if you watch it. I hated him after Euphy's death. Oh, and if everybody is so evil, then go for the lesser of two evils.
    Good point there.
    Last edited by Rei; 03-13-2010 at 04:08 AM.


    「そんな顔をしないで。また会えるよ、シンジ君」
    ---

    もう二度と会えないなんて信じられない
    まだ何も伝えてない
    まだ何も伝えてない


    I'm sorry (not) sorry.

  11. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Response to post # 246. Unfinished 03/13/10.



    But naive girls do last long in the battlefield that is Code Geass. It seems logical that that Euphemia was more naive at fifteen than at sixteen, still more naive at fourteen, still more naive at thirteen, and so on. It seems reasonable to believe that there are hundreds of millions of boys and girls aged fourteen and younger who are at least as naive as Euphemia in the population of the world of Code Geass.

    Assume that at the beginning of Code Geass there were three hundred million children aged twelve and younger in the fictional world of Code Geass and each of them was at least as naive as Euphemia. A few million of them might have been killed when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used on Toyko and Pendragon and a few million may have died of diseases and malnutrition in underdeveloped lands, and tens or hundreds of thousands would have been killed in accidents, by the time of the last episode. So about 290,000,0000 to 295,000,000 children at least as naive as Euphemia would have survived the course of the series.

    And each of those naive children would have naively decided to spend time with one or more relatives, friends, and other people that he or she knew and trusted at least once and probably several times a day in the naive belief that none of those trusted people would try to harm him or her. And only a few thousands or tens of thousands of those trusted people betrayed the naive child enough to kill him or her.
    Yes you may argue that in theory, but the question is, do you realize that it was intended in the script for her to die in that episode? That is why Euphemia's death really happened.

    You also seem to not realize that having grown up in such a hostile environment, normal kids Euphemia's age would be well more hardened to reality and not as naive as she is. Euphemia was a princess, brought up in luxury where there are textbook answers to everything. Therefore she did not realize how simplistic her solution was, to try and bring World Peace.

    Or at least within the boundaries of Japan.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Statistically, Euphemia's naive belief that her long-lost brother was not evil enough to try to kill her was very reasonable. It was just extremely bad luck for her that Lelouch was so exceptionally evil, so evil that only one out of tens of thousands of people who were naively trusted ever did anything as evil as he did.

    That scene does not show that a naive girl will not last long on the battlefield of Code Geass, it shows that Lelouch was far more evil than any of the persons you or I have ever spent time with in the naive (but justified by the result) belief that they would never kill you or me, as evil as one person out of tens of thousands.
    Statistically? Frankly, I do not trust your version of statistics. And I, for one have no idea how you view morals and measure naivety, mainly because there has not been an official measure for it yet. It is personal. And as such, it should be kept to oneself and not be aired outright to confuse people.



    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Which I find very depressing. Apparently if an audience follows a protagonist for as few as ten hours of screen time they will not stop liking him and start hating him even when he does something as bad as any hated villain does.

    But on the bright side if an audience followed the adventures of a good protagonist like Euphemia for as few as ten hours of screen time they would like her so much that they would be horrified by her murder and hate her murderer and demand that she be brought back to life.
    They would not. Because, as we are saying yet again, Code Geass is an amazing anime with a great and complex storyline. And yet, it is merely an anime.

    Good Protagonists tend to have a very boring life. They are stereotyped. Again, Sunrise. It makes them more of a neutral character. And Euphy was not the protagonist of the anime, Lelouch was.



    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    NO!

    I am ashamed that it took me so long to realize that Lelouch was too evil for me to like. I feel like a fool for hoping that he would defeat Mao when I should have been hoping that Mao would defeat him.

    The storyline was bad. There is no point in telling the story of a fictional world after the only leader who wants to do good is killed. Without a leader who wants to do good there is no hope that good will be done. Without Euphemia the world of Code geass was doomed to horror and despair. There is no point in telling stories set in such a hopeless world. That would be as pointless and depressing as telling stories set in our world.

    Why should anyone be upset about the many Britannian soldiers that Lelouch killed before killing Euphemia which did not upset me and make me hate the show (and didn't make you hate the show either)? The Britannian army practices massacres. Why should I care how many members of a military which practices massacres are killed in battle? Anyway, in a story about war the viewers kind of expect to see soldiers killed in battle and are not usually upset by it unless it is a main character. Perhaps we should be, but we are not.

    I was so upset by Euphemia's death because it was so obviously and brazenly unnecessary and because Euphemia was more good than all the other named characters combined. Her death was a worse event than the deaths of all the other characters combined would be.

    Your quote has made be lose all respect for the Eunuch Generals. Anyone who could say something like that is too evil for me to ever like. I had a faint hope that in the second season there might be new military leaders who, like Euphemia, had sufficient respect for Human life, but your quote has destroyed that faint hope and makes me even more glad I never watched the second season.
    Mao shot C.C. -.- In her joints, if you didn't notice, and was about to saw her up into pieces.

    If you didn't notice, Euphemia was Britannian.

    Wrong. Suzaku? Nina? Anya? The Knights of Rounds? Apparently you seem to think that Everyone besides Euphemia is evil, not considering circumstances.

    Do you even know who the Eunuch Generals are? =_="

    Well then, you're missing out. The second season just became more exciting than the first.



    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Nobody should get over Euphemia's death for the next part of the anime, because there is no point in continuing a story after all the good characters are dead. There is no point in fiction about evil characters fighting other evil characters with no hope that anyone who wants to do good will succeed because there isn't anyone who wants to do good. We have history books for those who like that kind of depressing story.

    Which I find extremely depressing.

    Killing someone who is as easy to capture as Euphemia would have been is just as evil as killing someone who is already your prisoner.

    If Euphemia was captured and confined she would be no more dangerous to the Japanese than if she was dead. Capturing her and killing her would be equally safe for the Japanese. Capturing her would be at least as fast, as easy, and as safe for Lelouch as killing her would be. Thus there was no possible good and humane reason to kill Euphemia instead of capturing her.

    Many people claim that Lelouch killed Euphemia for political and military gain for his cause. Murder for political or military gain for your cause is evil and disgusting. And I have demonstrated over and over again that Lelouch needed a live Euphemia for the Black Rebellion to work and killed her anyway, which is pretty much a senseless murder.



    Giving her the geass command was an accident. Pointing the gun at her and pulling the trigger was deliberate murder and not an accident.



    No, that was apparently Lelouch's first resort for some reason. Lelouch HAD to see that it would be very easy to capture Euphemia if he was not very incompetent. But he killed Euphemia anyway. The fact that Lelouch killed Euphemia when it was so obvious that he could capture her alive is the starting point for all the negative impact that Code Geass has had on me.



    I do not judge someone evil for doing things that they consider evil, I judge them evil for doing things that I consider evil and/or that they consider evil. If someone does some thing that he considers evil, or I consider evil, or both of us consider evil, he is evil in my opinion and and I can not like him as a fictional character. I can not like a fictional character who does something he considers good and I consider evil.

    Nobody should ever accept a protagonist who kills even one person unnecessarily.

    Yes, the massacre was an accident, which was the result of Lelouch wanting to sabotage the SAZ opening. He told Euphemia that he would make her shoot him, which would cause a riot and spark his revolution. He said that when he came back to life (I started a thread to discuss what he meant) it would prove to the Japanese that he was their real messiah and Euphemia was a false messiah.

    Did Lelouch expect that the angry Japanese, starting to riot, would boo Euphie and throw rotten tomatoes at her? No, he expected that they would try to kill her. And apparently he didn't care or even hoped that they would succeed in killing her.

    And Lelouch apparently expected and wanted hundreds or thousands of Japanese who he tricking into rioting to be shot down by he Britannians. Lelouch probably expected there would be about as much bloodshed as in the actual massacre before the Black Knights came to rescue the survivors.

    If Lelouch had a plan to save Euphemia from the angry Japanese after she shot him, such as telling them that she had gone crazy, he could have adapted that plan to the circumstances of the massacre. Since he didn't do that, apparently he didn't care if Euphie survived or even wanted her dead.

    Of course Lelouch could have planned to simply make Euphemia resign as administrator, saying she was too young and inexperienced for such a difficult and complex and dangerous job. That would have killed the SAZ and made Zero and the Black Knights the only hope for millions of Japanese without killing Euphie.

    Wolfgirl90, and others, say that Lelouch killed Euphemia to gain support from the Japanese, and thus that he sought to gain something during the massacre.

    What is considered what?

    You are "dead" wrong about the Britannian soldiers. Almost no one has ever been forced to take part in a massacre against their will. Only a tiny proportion of the millions of persons who killed people in various massacres in history were forced to kill against their will. For example, the post-war German legal authorities have investigated every claim that someone who took part in the Holocaust was forced against his will and not a single claim has stood up. There is no proof that even a single person was ever killed, or imprisoned, or fined, or demoted, or seriously punished, for refusing to kill Jews, and enormous evidence that the perpetrators volunteered to kill.

    An investigation after World war II showed that almost half the time US soldiers didn't fire their guns in battle or fired wildly into the air, unable to force themselves to kill despite the enemy provoking them by shooting at them. And how many of those millions of instances of not doing their duty were punished at the time by execution, corporal punishment, fines, demotion, imprisonment, dishonorable discharge, or any other severe punishment, even when anyone noticed at the time? Only a tiny proportion of them. US soldiers who did fight fiercely in battle against enemies who were trying to kill them could not claim that they were forced to kill in battle and would be killed or severely punished by their superiors if they did not.

    And if a U.S. officer ordered a evil massacre do you think that he would after ward take the trouble to ferret out and punish the large proportion of soldiers who had not killed anyone? Even if he was evil enough to want to punish them for not doing evil, why bother?

    I don't care how much harsher the discipline in the Britannian Army may be than the U.S. Army, or how much more evil an institution it may be. It would be inviting mutiny to try to force armed men to do something they considered to be evil. See, for example the Sepoy Mutiny of 1857.

    Any Britannian soldiers who obeyed the order to kill (which must have been at least a majority of them) did so because they had no objections to massacring Japanese people, not because they were forced to kill.

    Using Euphemia as a hostage to stop the massacre would have a good chance of working. You just claim that it wouldn't work because you don't want to admit that Lelouch might have let tens, or hundreds, or thousands of Japanese get killed by not trying to use Euphemia as a hostage and stop the massacre.
    ~Not complete~


    「そんな顔をしないで。また会えるよ、シンジ君」
    ---

    もう二度と会えないなんて信じられない
    まだ何も伝えてない
    まだ何も伝えてない


    I'm sorry (not) sorry.

  12. #262
    Cardinal of Eden Vital Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    ...
    Reminiscent of Allelujah.

    More like Setsuna.




    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Agreed. I mean, even good people accidentally kill others.
    Yep. Yep.




    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Saji is ANGST. Poor Conflicted guy.
    But he drove me CRAZY on episodes 5 and 6 of season 2.




    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    I happened to get into Gundam 00 before Code Geass...Tieria's my favorite Gundam Meister. Veda...Veda...!

    I got Gundam 00 for Christmas last year. I was very surprised by how much I liked it. I watched the whole first season in three days. The whole second one in about one month.(The site I watched it on only allowed 2 episodes per day)
    Tieria is my favorite character.



    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Nope I haven't ....
    It's on the DVDs, it used to be on youtube.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  13. #263
    Member Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch's Avatar
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    I figured it out. Proeuphy is a satirical look at a pompous, self righteous narcissist who thinks that the entire world is black and white.
    Well played, Proeuphy! You do the world of troll parodies due justice!

    HOLLOW LELOUCH

  14. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow Lelouch View Post
    I figured it out. Proeuphy is a satirical look at a pompous, self righteous narcissist who thinks that the entire world is black and white.
    Well played, Proeuphy! You do the world of troll parodies due justice!
    Pretty much. yeah. I think I stated it before but...


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  15. #265
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Since it's going to get longer, I'll put this here for you, troll (if you don't know what it is, look it up).

    Told you I was going to do it. Now you should know that I really just messing with you at this point. You are still going to respond aren't you? Even knowing that I am no longer taking ANYTHING that you say seriously anymore, you are still going to respond to this post, aren't you?
    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I am ashamed that it took me so long to realize that Lelouch was too evil for me to like.
    That's your problem, troll. Ifyou couldn't keep your morals straight, that's your own damn problem. Even with your "standards", you STILL couldn't figure out that Lelouch was a less than good guy until he killed Euphemia, something he had planned to do before? Yeah, that's your problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    The storyline was bad. There is no point in telling the story of a fictional world after the only leader who wants to do good is killed.
    Which is why there are four versions of the story: Lelouch of the Rebellion, Nightmare of Nunnally, Suzaku of the Counterattack and Tales of an Alternate Shogunate. Take your pick. I have already told about Euphemia in Nightmare of Nunnally; if don't want to read, that's your call, but Sunrise is not going back to Lelouch of the Rebellion (they have said this plenty of times).

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Many people claim that Lelouch killed Euphemia for political and military gain for his cause. Murder for political or military gain for your cause is evil and disgusting.
    I didn't say that it was a good thing. However, considering that one of the FIRST THINGS that Lelouch does is kill his half-brother for political gain, you didn't find it too "evil and disgusting" if you kept watching the show, now did you?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    The fact that Lelouch killed Euphemia when it was so obvious that he could capture her alive is the starting point for all the negative impact that Code Geass has had on me.
    The question is: capture her how and why (actually, don't even tell because I don't care)? Remember, while he is trying to figure that out, people will still be dying. And again, Lelouch made that decision because, ultimately, Sunrise thought that Euphemia should die. If you have a problem with it take it up with them, don't get mad at Lelouch (who isn't real and can't do a thing) or us (as we do not care).

    By the way, you STILL haven't contacted them, have you? Are you going to? Are you going to reply to this long post without contacting them...again? You know, Sunrise isn't going to magically happen upon all this and care, so you should contact them.

    ...You haven't done anything, have you?
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 03-13-2010 at 10:42 PM.
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  16. #266
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow Lelouch View Post
    Proeuphy. I like Euphy, really I do. You just might kill her fanbase doing this. Also, Watch. R2. Lelouch does a lot of good in R2. You might forgive him if you watch it. I hated him after Euphy's death. Oh, and if everybody is so evil, then go for the lesser of two evils.

    There are many more than two evils in the world of Code Geass and Lelouch was far from being the least of them, since he consistently does more evil than he needs to to achieve his goals.

    You say that Lelouch does a lot of good in R2. Like what?

    When the series opens the world of Code Geass is far more hopeful than our world. It looks like Britannia might conquer the world and put an end forever to the ancient evil of nations. After a few hundred years of Britannian oppression the Britannians and the numbers would gradually merge into one people (that is the way that many of our world's nations were formed) throughout the whole world. War would be ended forever and countless billions of lives would be saved in the first million years alone.

    And what is more, the conquering nation Britannia is ruled by an powerful imperial family (which no powerful nation in our world is) which by an amazing coincidence happens to have a very good and kind member who is just a few places away from the throne.

    All Lelouch has to do to make the good prospect of a Britannian conquest of the world even better is to infiltrate Britannia with his geass power, arranging to kill a few people ahead of Euphemia or make them resign their rights to the throne to her and have a few hundred important members of the imperial family, the nobility, the government, and the army declare Euphemia Empress of Britannia. Euphemia would soon act to reduce the excessive brutality and violence of the Britannian conquests and lift the Britannian oppression of the numbers centuries earlier than otherwise. And of course she would need advisers she trusted such as her long lost brother Lelouch who could be "found" and soon be one of her top advisers.

    But instead Lelouch never even thought of making Euphie empress and killed her when he could have captured her alive with perfect ease.

    In R2 the prospect of a Britannian-Chinese marriage to unite two thirds of the world's people without a battle is like a wonderful fairy tale.

    Suppose that in our world the United states and the Soviet Union had been ruled by two powerful imperial dynasties and a marriage was arranged to unite the two realms. Tens of thousands of nuclear missiles would no longer be aimed at each of the two realms.

    In our world without either the imperial dynasties or the marriage between them, the Cold War somehow by luck and/or good management ended without World war III and hundreds of millions of (immediate) deaths. But who knows how many times World War II has wiped out hundreds of millions of people in alternate universes.

    At he same time the Euro Universe was strongly defeated by Britannia. thus the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage could have united two thirds of the world and led to the conquest or negotiated union with the rest of the world.

    That is a wonderful prospect of achieving total and permanent world peace much easier than is possible in our world where the powerful realms have given up monarchy despite the advantages of royal marriages for uniting former enemies without war or violence.

    And yet Lelouch prevented this wonderful situation, so much better than anything which could happen in our world, from happening, because he wanted revenge on Britannia.

    And then I hear that Lelouch actually conquered the whole world and held it in his iron grasp.

    He could have devoted the rest of his life to making his forced union permanent and encouraging intermarriage between members of different former nationalities so that millions of people would be born who would be told that they owed their existence to imperial policies and would mostly be grateful to the imperial government for causing them to be born and would give it their loyalty. He could have worked to give the world the blessings of peace and prosperity.

    But instead Lelouch could not face the prospect of never again outwitting and tricking and outfighting his enemies and defeating people and spreading death and destruction. A life devoted to serving the people of he world and doing them good instead of evil was too horrifying for him to face, and so he committed suicide in the Zero requiem and abandoned the world to be ruled by people who were neither as intelligent as Lelouch nor as good and kind as Euphemia.

    And so Lelouch destroyed a third chance to give the world total and permanent peace and save countless billions of lives in the first million years alone.

    And if I do watch the R2 I will see the Geass Directorate Massacre which I have merely read about, and I will hate Lelouch for it as much as I now hate him for killing Euphemia so senselessly.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-13-2010 at 11:10 PM.

  17. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Pretty much. yeah. I think I stated it before but...
    Perfect. We've all been trolled. XD But it's too fun.


    「そんな顔をしないで。また会えるよ、シンジ君」
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    もう二度と会えないなんて信じられない
    まだ何も伝えてない
    まだ何も伝えてない


    I'm sorry (not) sorry.

  18. #268
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    It looks like Britannia might conquer the world and put an end forever to the ancient evil of nations.
    You make this assumption...how? In case you haven't noticed, there have many empires on this planet and none of them exist anymore. The British Empire was the largest empire in history and, as of 1997, doesn't exist anymore. Spanish empire? That's gone. Portuguese empire. That's gone too. Roman, French, Mongol, Nazi German, Japanese, Dutch, Indian, Macedonian, Achaemenid (Persian), Han, Russian. These no longer exist, so how do you come to the conclusion that the Britannian Empire would be any different (other than being really simple, naive and stupid)?

    Of course, in Nightmare of Nunnally,
     
    Euphemia was able to achieve world peace even after freeing the Areas and they became individual states, so needless to say, I am barely paying attention to anything you say
    .

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And what is more, the conquering nation Britannia is ruled by an powerful imperial family (which no powerful nation in our world is) which by an amazing coincidence happens to have a very good and kind member who is just a few places away from the throne.
    "Just a few places away from the throne"? How do you figure that? In case you have forgotten (which you may have; your stupidity shows in every other thing you say, troll), Euphemia is the Third Princess of Britannia. This merely means that she is, literally, the third princess; she is Charles' third daughter. The rank of her mother plays a part in the numbering (just as it does in her name), but it does not mean that she is third in line for the throne. Her place as heir is actually never fully established (she most likely never tried fighting for it, seeing as she never liked being in positions like that).

    For example, Lelouch is (or was) the Eleventh Prince of Britannia. This does not mean that he was 11th in line to the throne. He was actually seventeenth in line. And while Nunnally was the Eleventh Princess of Britannia, she was actually only 87th in line to the throne. Do you even research the show that you are talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But instead Lelouch never even thought of making Euphie empress and killed her when he could have captured her alive with perfect ease.
    Like I said, he ultimately killed her because Sunrise made him do it (because, you know, he isn't real). If you have a problem, take it up with Sunrise, the people I assume you STILL haven't contacted about this matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    In R2 the prospect of a Britannian-Chinese marriage to unite two thirds of the world's people without a battle is like a wonderful fairy tale.
    Well, a fairy tale to those who read it, not those involved. Empress Tianzi was basically used as a political pawn by the High Eunuchs so that they could save their own behinds from Britannia (effectively committing lèse majesté). They didn't do it to save their country, which they couldn't care less about. This is a fairy tale...how?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    That is a wonderful prospect of achieving total and permanent world peace much easier than is possible in our world where the powerful realms have given up monarchy despite the advantages of royal marriages for uniting former enemies without war or violence.
    Look into how many countries unified though marriage and figure out how many still exist because of it, with no fighting occurring after it. And before you say it, no, the United Kingdom does not count (not even Great Britain was unified through marriage).

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    He could have worked to give the world the blessings of peace and prosperity.
    So you want him to do the same thing that Britannia was doing, only nicer?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And if I do watch the R2 I will see the Geass Directorate Massacre which I have merely read about, and I will hate Lelouch for it as much as I now hate him for killing Euphemia so senselessly.
    Considering that you already know about the Geass Directorate Massacre (you only talk about it at every turn), you thoughts about Lelouch can only change so much.

    Then again, you put up with Lelouch's senseless acts of violence and murder before he killed Euphemia, so this shouldn't be too much for you to handle. I mean, you saw when Lelouch caused a massive landslide to crush the Britannian forces at Narita, which is later to revealed to have caused the deaths of many civilians (including Shirley's father), in yet, you continued to watch the series for another TEN EPISODES before stopping?

    Yeah, says a lot about you, don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Perfect. We've all been trolled. XD But it's too fun.
    Well, like I said before, I really only consider proEuphie to be a troll in the BROADEST sense of the word. If she is trying to rile an angry response out of me (or anyone else), its not working; if she is trying to be a troll, she really sucks at it and needs to take some lessons on 4chan. Her rants, at the moment, are confined to her threads (rather than others), so the only people who are really are "affected" by her "trolling" are those that respond her threads in the first place.

    To be honest, I think her argument is genuine but her reasons for the argument are not. She commits so many Internet faux pas that I really only roll my eyes at any argument she makes at this point.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 03-14-2010 at 06:18 PM.
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  19. #269
    Junior Member Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K has much to be proud of Dante K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    When the series opens the world of Code Geass is far more hopeful than our world. It looks like Britannia might conquer the world and put an end forever to the ancient evil of nations.
    Oh dear. Been going to some Marxist sociology class in college?

    After a few hundred years of Britannian oppression the Britannians and the numbers would gradually merge into one people (that is the way that many of our world's nations were formed) throughout the whole world.
    Yes, that worked so well for the Roman Empire. And the Arab Empire. And the Persian Empire. And the Byzantine Empire. And the Mongol Empire. And the Charlemagne French Empire. And the Holy German-Roman Empire. And the Ottoman Empire. And the Hunnic Empire. And the African Zulu Empire. And the Inca Empire. And the Mayan Empire. And the Spanish Empire. And the Portuguese Empire. And the British Empire. And the Italian Empire. And the Japanese Empire. And the Reich Empire. And the Soviet Empire.

    See a pattern here?

    The only empires that last are those where the ruling people far outnumbers the conquered; like the Han do in China, 92 percent of the population. And the Russians. But even that is no certainty; look at the USSR.

    But I am sure that the NEXT time it will work. Or the time after that. Or the time after that. The "evil of nations" indeed, to be ended by enlightened imperial conquest. Most of the empires mentioned here considered themselves to be bringing the Light of Truth to the conquered.

  20. #270
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    Oh dear. Been going to some Marxist sociology class in college?
    If Marxists really believed that nations were evil and world unity was good Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, etc. etc. would have joined the USSR as soon as Communist governments took over at the end of World War II. And there would never have been wars between Communist China and the USSR, or between Communist Vietnam and Communist Cambodia, etc. etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    Yes, that worked so well for the Roman Empire. And the Arab Empire. And the Persian Empire. And the Byzantine Empire. And the Mongol Empire. And the Charlemagne French Empire. And the Holy German-Roman Empire. And the Ottoman Empire. And the Hunnic Empire. And the African Zulu Empire. And the Inca Empire. And the Mayan Empire. And the Spanish Empire. And the Portuguese Empire. And the British Empire. And the Italian Empire. And the Japanese Empire. And the Reich Empire. And the Soviet Empire.

    See a pattern here?
    Actually I count only four great empires in history (The Persian Empire during the Achamenid Dynasty and to a lesser degree during the Arsacid and Sassanid Dynasties; the Roman Empire, including all of its branches and offshoots such as the "Byzantine" Empire and the Holy Roman Empire; The Arab Empire of the Caliphs; and the Inca Empire.

    The Mongol Empire would count as a fifth if it's conquests were not so incredibly brutal.

    The European "empires" seem more like accumulations of colonial possessions than true empires to me.
    And of the possessions of those colonial "empires" Latin America gained independence as a result of the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars and the others because of the terrible shock of World War I and World War II.

    The Zulu realm was more like a kingdom.

    Actually most of those reams fell mostly because of external invasions and only slightly because of rebellions by the subject peoples.

    And the subjects of the Roman Empire did develop a sense of Roman identity. Languages based on Latin are spoken from Rumania or Romania (Roman-land) to Portugal. "Byzantine" Greeks called themselves Rhomaion, or Romans. Asia Minor, modern Turkey, was for centuries known to Muslim peoples as Rum ("Rome"). Modern Turks and Greeks are ethnic enemies, but for more than a thousand years the ancestors of both nations were known as Romans and proud of it.

    The Roman Empire was ruled by officials and even Emperors of many different ethic origins, such as Macrinus the Moor or Philip the Arab, or Septimius Severus, whose family allegedly spoke Punic more often than Latin when he was a child. IN the late Third Century AD the generals and Emperors who defeated the barbarians and restored the unity of the Empire during its terrible crisis had risen from the ranks of the common soldiers and had been recruited from the Balkans.

    And of course many nations have formed by the peaceful or violent merger of many previously independent realms or nations.

    For example, In the fifth century AD the Okimi ("Great King") of Wa (Japan) sent a message to China boasting of the dozens of tribes or kingdoms of "barbarians" that he and his ancestors had conquered for the greater glory of their overlord the Son of Heaven (and not all to satisfy their own lust for power, of course). And at that time more than half of modern Japan was still unconquered by the Japanese. And over centuries the natives of tens or hundreds of conquered and annexed lands have turned into Japanese people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dante K View Post
    The only empires that last are those where the ruling people far outnumbers the conquered; like the Han do in China, 92 percent of the population. And the Russians. But even that is no certainty; look at the USSR.

    But I am sure that the NEXT time it will work. Or the time after that. Or the time after that. The "evil of nations" indeed, to be ended by enlightened imperial conquest. Most of the empires mentioned here considered themselves to be bringing the Light of Truth to the conquered.
    And if a world government was formed, how could external enemies attack and conquer it? And how could rebellions succeed? How could the rebels buy weapons on the international arms market when the new world government would have ended the manufacture and sale of weapons except those that its forces needed? And how could the rebels get assistance from foreign governments if there weren't any foreign governments?
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-22-2010 at 12:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    There are many more than two evils in the world of Code Geass and Lelouch was far from being the least of them, since he consistently does more evil than he needs to to achieve his goals.

    You say that Lelouch does a lot of good in R2. Like what?
    Like killing himself to bring peace to Britannia, perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    When the series opens the world of Code Geass is far more hopeful than our world. It looks like Britannia might conquer the world and put an end forever to the ancient evil of nations. After a few hundred years of Britannian oppression the Britannians and the numbers would gradually merge into one people (that is the way that many of our world's nations were formed) throughout the whole world. War would be ended forever and countless billions of lives would be saved in the first million years alone.
    You obviously have NOT watched R2, Troll. Britannia was running on a system concocted on Charles Di Britannia and Marianne's whims. What you watched was just the beginning. IF you watched R2, you would know that Lelouch stopped that terrible world from happening before it did. And BEFORE his Geass Directorate, which you seem to love so much. And plus he planned his own suicide, with Suzaku taking over as Zero. It was more than enough atonement.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And what is more, the conquering nation Britannia is ruled by an powerful imperial family (which no powerful nation in our world is) which by an amazing coincidence happens to have a very good and kind member who is just a few places away from the throne.

    All Lelouch has to do to make the good prospect of a Britannian conquest of the world even better is to infiltrate Britannia with his geass power, arranging to kill a few people ahead of Euphemia or make them resign their rights to the throne to her and have a few hundred important members of the imperial family, the nobility, the government, and the army declare Euphemia Empress of Britannia. Euphemia would soon act to reduce the excessive brutality and violence of the Britannian conquests and lift the Britannian oppression of the numbers centuries earlier than otherwise. And of course she would need advisers she trusted such as her long lost brother Lelouch who could be "found" and soon be one of her top advisers.

    But instead Lelouch never even thought of making Euphie empress and killed her when he could have captured her alive with perfect ease.

    In R2 the prospect of a Britannian-Chinese marriage to unite two thirds of the world's people without a battle is like a wonderful fairy tale.
    /Look./ Lelouch wants to take over the world. Why /would/ he hand the throne over to Euphemia? Oh, and, by the way he did that. After he took over, of course. :

    Wonderful Fairy Tale? In Code Geass? You have Got to Be Kidding me. Or not, knowing you, troll. =_= Not to mention if the two parties had been Made to come together, it would be a forced marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Suppose that in our world the United states and the Soviet Union had been ruled by two powerful imperial dynasties and a marriage was arranged to unite the two realms. Tens of thousands of nuclear missiles would no longer be aimed at each of the two realms.

    In our world without either the imperial dynasties or the marriage between them, the Cold War somehow by luck and/or good management ended without World war III and hundreds of millions of (immediate) deaths. But who knows how many times World War II has wiped out hundreds of millions of people in alternate universes.

    That is a wonderful prospect of achieving total and permanent world peace much easier than is possible in our world where the powerful realms have given up monarchy despite the advantages of royal marriages for uniting former enemies without war or violence.

    And yet Lelouch prevented this wonderful situation, so much better than anything which could happen in our world, from happening, because he wanted revenge on Britannia.

    And then I hear that Lelouch actually conquered the whole world and held it in his iron grasp.

    He could have devoted the rest of his life to making his forced union permanent and encouraging intermarriage between members of different former nationalities so that millions of people would be born who would be told that they owed their existence to imperial policies and would mostly be grateful to the imperial government for causing them to be born and would give it their loyalty. He could have worked to give the world the blessings of peace and prosperity.

    But instead Lelouch could not face the prospect of never again outwitting and tricking and outfighting his enemies and defeating people and spreading death and destruction. A life devoted to serving the people of he world and doing them good instead of evil was too horrifying for him to face, and so he committed suicide in the Zero requiem and abandoned the world to be ruled by people who were neither as intelligent as Lelouch nor as good and kind as Euphemia.

    And so Lelouch destroyed a third chance to give the world total and permanent peace and save countless billions of lives in the first million years alone.

    And if I do watch the R2 I will see the Geass Directorate Massacre which I have merely read about, and I will hate Lelouch for it as much as I now hate him for killing Euphemia so senselessly.
    Ohhhh? [Sephiroth drawl]
    Isn't an arranged (forced) marriage against your /low/ standard of morals?
    Might you also consider that the REAL women leaders of Our World are a lot more likely to be Not as submissive as those in Code Geass? There would be multiple issues if they were forced into one. World peace, right...

    You are now mixing up real life issues with those in Code Geass, Troll.

    "Devote his life to making his forced union permanent and encouraging intermarriage between memners of former different nationalities....etc. etc."
    -Gasp- Where's the entertainment / fun in that? What the is he, some glorified matchmaker? Can YOU imagine doing that for the rest of your life?







    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Well, like I said before, I really only consider proEuphie to be a troll in the BROADEST sense of the word. If she is trying to rile an angry response out of me (or anyone else), its not working; if she is trying to be a troll, she really sucks at it and needs to take some lessons on 4chan. Her rants, at the moment, are confined to her threads (rather than others), so the only people who are really are "affected" by her "trolling" are those that respond her threads in the first place.

    To be honest, I think her argument is genuine but her reasons for the argument are not. She commits so many Internet faux pas that I really only roll my eyes at any argument she makes at this point.
    ]Heh. That's true. But I quote Rolo Vi Britannia: "Stay off my thread, troll."

    The problem is she keeps repeating her arguments. And makes people want to knock sense into her head
    Last edited by Rei; 03-14-2010 at 10:18 PM.


    「そんな顔をしないで。また会えるよ、シンジ君」
    ---

    もう二度と会えないなんて信じられない
    まだ何も伝えてない
    まだ何も伝えてない


    I'm sorry (not) sorry.

  22. #272
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    You make this assumption...how? In case you haven't noticed, there have many empires on this planet and none of them exist anymore. The British Empire was the largest empire in history and, as of 1997, doesn't exist anymore. Spanish empire? That's gone. Portuguese empire. That's gone too. Roman, French, Mongol, Nazi German, Japanese, Dutch, Indian, Macedonian, Achaemenid (Persian), Han, Russian. These no longer exist, so how do you come to the conclusion that the Britannian Empire would be any different (other than being really simple, naive and stupid)?

    Of course, in Nightmare of Nunnally,
     
    Euphemia was able to achieve world peace even after freeing the Areas and they became individual states, so needless to say, I am barely paying attention to anything you say
    .
    Se my post # 270 when I point out the flaws in your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    "Just a few places away from the throne"? How do you figure that? In case you have forgotten (which you may have; your stupidity shows in every other thing you say, troll), Euphemia is the Third Princess of Britannia. This merely means that she is, literally, the third princess; she is Charles' third daughter. The rank of her mother plays a part in the numbering (just as it does in her name), but it does not mean that she is third in line for the throne. Her place as heir is actually never fully established (she most likely never tried fighting for it, seeing as she never liked being in positions like that).

    For example, Lelouch is (or was) the Eleventh Prince of Britannia. This does not mean that he was 11th in line to the throne. He was actually seventeenth in line. And while Nunnally was the Eleventh Princess of Britannia, she was actually only 87th in line to the throne. Do you even research the show that you are talking about?
    I never assumed that Euphemia the Third Princess was third in line for the throne. I assumed that the First, Second, and Third Princes were each at least as close to the throne as the First, Second, and Third Princesses respectively. And I assumed that other princes like the Fourth, the Fifth, the Sixth, and so on, might be ahead of Euphemia. Maybe all the princes were ahead of even the First princess.

    But it doesn't matter much if Euphemia was third in line, or thirtieth, or hundred and third. There were only a comparatively few people ahead of her to kill or geass into giving up their claims to the throne, and Lelouch would have had to geass most of them anyway to make himself, Euphemia, Nunnally, or any other candidate of his choice the monarch.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Well, a fairy tale to those who read it, not those involved. Empress Tianzi was basically used as a political pawn by the High Eunuchs so that they could save their own behinds from Britannia (effectively committing lèse majesté). They didn't do it to save their country, which they couldn't care less about. This is a fairy tale...how?
    It would be a fairy tale for billions of people who would have had the danger of war between their realms ended so easily, and at almost the same time that F.R.E.I.J.A. came into use.

    As for Tianzi, throughout history royal princesses have been used as marriage pawns countless thousands or millions of times without their wishes being considered when the potential gain for humanity as a whole was infinitely less than in this case. And they have been told that it was their duty to accept it.

    I think it is a delightful fairy tale that any modern and powerful nation could be controlled by people who weren't patriotic and would end it's political independence, saving the world from the horror of countless future wars, for their selfish personal gain. That is not as good as doing it out of a noble desire to save countless billions of lives, but it still good for the world as whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Look into how many countries unified though marriage and figure out how many still exist because of it, with no fighting occurring after it. And before you say it, no, the United Kingdom does not count (not even Great Britain was unified through marriage).
    Well, King James VI of Scotland inherited the throne of England in 1603 due to a royal marriage a few generations earlier and started talking like Scotland and England were part of one country called Great Britain. Thus the two countries were united in the sense that they had the same monarch who would have been very reluctant to declare war on himself. And if that is not unified enough for you, in 1707, when his great granddaughter Anne was queen of England and Scotland the parliaments of both countries agreed an Act of Union which merged them into Great Britain.

    So you are saying that uniting two countries into one would be a failure if there was later a civil war in the new country, especially if one side was from one former country and another side was from the other former country.

    But that would mean that all methods of forming a country are failures because all countries which have lasted as long as century or two have had at least one civil war. And in the modern world it is very hard for any rebel group which does not include a large part of the army to have much success against a modern army. Most rebellions fail, and the ones that succeed do so in large part because of foreign aid which, as I said in post # 270, is hard to get when there are no more foreign governments.

    Suppose that in Country A conquered Country B in a terrible war in which 2,000,000 natives of country B were killed and then five years later crushed a bloody revolt and killed 3,000,000 more natives of country B. Suppose that in an alternate universe Country A and country B united by a royal marriage and six years later there was a bloody revolt in Country B and 3,500,000 of its people were killed crushing the revolt. That alternate universe would be better because 1,500,000 fewer natives of Country B would have been killed in that six-year period.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    So you want him to do the same thing that Britannia was doing, only nicer?
    Of course. Didn't I write that I wanted him to make Euphemia Empress and help Britannia conquer and rule the world nicer?


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Considering that you already know about the Geass Directorate Massacre (you only talk about it at every turn), you thoughts about Lelouch can only change so much.

    Then again, you put up with Lelouch's senseless acts of violence and murder before he killed Euphemia, so this shouldn't be too much for you to handle. I mean, you saw when Lelouch caused a massive landslide to crush the Britannian forces at Narita, which is later to revealed to have caused the deaths of many civilians (including Shirley's father), in yet, you continued to watch the series for another TEN EPISODES before stopping?

    Yeah, says a lot about you, don't you think?
    But actually seeing the massacre could only make me despise him more.

    Well, starting the landslide was not senseless, since it did help defeat his enemies at Narita. And of course killing enemy soldiers in battle is not generally considered to be an act of senseless evil violence, especially when they belong to an army which massacres as much as the Britannians army does. And even though the landslide wiped out the town of Narita it would have been much worse if the town had not been evacuated by the Britannians, which I COULD give Lelouch the benefit of the doubt and suppose that he knew about before unleashing the landslide.

    Yes, I do feel terribly inferior to all the legions of viewers who gave up in disgust when Lelouch killed Clovis who was begging for mercy or when he unleashed the landslide. But at least I can congratulate myself on not waiting, like thousands of viewers did, until the Geass Directorate massacre to realize that Lelouch was evil and there was no point in watching his story.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-15-2010 at 12:00 AM.

  23. #273
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Gamertag: DisturbedWiccan PSN ID: Wolfdragon63 Steam ID: Wolfgirl90

    Cool

    Still replying? Shouldn't you be contacting Sunrise about Euphemia right now? Did you stop caring about her? Also, you DO know that I am not taking you serious anymore right? So, you might as well stop "arguing" with me since I am no longer paying attention to what you post right? Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Se my post # 270 when I point out the flaws in your argument.
    You didn't point out ANY flaws in MY argument. You responded to Dante K, who's post is not related to mine; he didn't quote me, he quoted you. Therefore, your post to him doesn't really refute anything that I already said.

    Also, you only gave your point on the matter of "empires". You didn't refute his argument either. That's called an irrelevant conclusion (its also a straw man), which, as I have told you MANY times now, is a logical fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I assumed that the First, Second, and Third Princes were each at least as close to the throne as the First, Second, and Third Princesses respectively.
    You assumed wrong, then. As I said, Euphemia's rank is not a real indication as her position as heir to the throne. Considering her much more competitive siblings (even Carline le Britannia, who is the same age of Nunnally is more competitive for the throne than Euphemia), she could rank rather low in that respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    There were only a comparatively few people ahead of her to kill or geass into giving up their claims to the throne, and Lelouch would have had to geass most of them anyway to make himself, Euphemia, Nunnally, or any other candidate of his choice the monarch.
    "Comparatively"? You do know what "line of succession" means, right? Despite who you think would be more "fit" to rule, the line of succession is what matter above everything else. Like I said before, Euphemia's rank is never made all that clear (but is most likely below Carline as Carline has been actively fighting for her position while Euphemia hates being in that type of position altogether). ALL those people (who we don't know) would need to be out of the way before Euphemia could take over (at least in the way that you are suggesting).

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    It would be a fairy tale for billions of people who would have had the danger of war between their realms ended so easily, and at almost the same time that F.R.E.I.J.A. came into use.
    BETWEEN the realms, not within, which is the problem I have been presenting to you. Just because the nations got together doesn't mean that the people would accept it, epecially if it happened when a group of cowards committed lèse majesté against their empress.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Well, King James VI of Scotland inherited the throne of England in 1603 due to a royal marriage a few generations earlier and started talking like Scotland and England were part of one country called Great Britain.
    Yeah, its what he said, but, as you pointed out, the two countries didn't formally combine until over 100 years later (thank you for proving my point). The Act of Crowns only combined the monarchies, not the nations themselves, which is why I said that it didn't count, because the marriage only brought the countries together by their monarchies.

    [quote=proEuphie;2398824So you are saying that uniting two countries into one would be a failure if there was later a civil war in the new country, especially if one side was from one former country and another side was from the other former country.[/quote]

    No, but if the countries combine but have a civil war and then split because of it, then yes, the reunification was a failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Didn't I write that I wanted him to make Euphemia Empress and help Britannia conquer and rule the world nicer?
    Which is why I was confirming your point, you idiot. "Conquering" people, really doesn't bring peace, not when there are people still pissed ("peace" is not simply defined as "not fighting"). For example, in the world of Code Geass, before the UFN, Australia was independent of any nation; they were a neutral nation. Are you suggesting that, to ensure peace, Australia should be "conquered" by Britannia?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Well, starting the landslide was not senseless, since it did help defeat his enemies at Narita.
    I could say the same thing about him killing Euphemia and the success of the Zero Requiem. Or the Geass Directorate Massacre for the same reason. But I bet you wouldn't, you idiotic hypocrite.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But at least I can congratulate myself on not waiting, like thousands of viewers did, until the Geass Directorate massacre to realize that Lelouch was evil and there was no point in watching his story.
    But again, you STILL waited until then to figure it out, so you really shouldn't "congratulate" yourself on anything. That's like failing a test but congratulating yourself because you got a higher failing grade than the others. You have nothing to be proud of. Do you want a cookie? Or would you prefer to wallow in your own sense of self-satisfaction? Oh wait, you are already doing that. Maybe I should use the word "roll" instead of wallow; I wouldn't want to insult animals by comparing them to you.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 03-15-2010 at 07:34 PM.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  24. #274
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    In post # 273 wolfgirl90 wrote:

    "I could say the same thing about him killing Euphemia and the success of the Zero Requiem. Or the Geass Directorate Massacre for the same reason. But I bet you wouldn't, you idiotic hypocrite."

    When I found out that Lelouch actually shot Clovis I almost stopped watching the show then. But unlike you I did not believe that Lelouch shot Clovis for political gain. I figured that it would have been very difficult to come up with a plan to keep Clovis from informing others that Lelouch vi Britannia was still alive and sending the secret police to try to find Lelouch and arrest him for various crimes such as treason, threatening a high official, etc. etc.

    So I imagined that Lelouch would have been taking a very great risk if he let Clovis live and somehow managed not to give up on Lelouch or the show.

    As for the landslide, Lelouch had just a couple of days to come up with a plan and put it into effect, and came up with a much better battle plan than the JLF had come up with in months or years of using the Narita underground base. When he saw the landslide engulf Narita Lelouch thought that he should have consulted a physics teacher or a geologist. At the time I thought that he was sincerely sorry the landslide had been so much bigger than necessary. Now, looking back, I can only give the more evil interpretation to anything he did, and so I now suppose that Lelouch was practicing what he might say if any Black Knight criticized the destruction of Narita.

    As for the Geass Directorate Massacre, I shouldn't have to point that that massacres are never, ever justified.

    Anyway, I managed to keep on making excuses and deluding myself that Lelouch was good until I saw him kill Euphemia when it would have been so easy to capture her alive, and when it would have been just as safe for the Japanese if she was captured and confined as if she was dead.

    You keep saying that Lelouch gained something by killing Euphemia and so I keep pointing out that he needed her alive.


    In Code Geass:Black Knight/White Knight my post number 155 quotes from earlier posts in which I prove that Leloluch needed Euphemia alive and killed her anyway.

    from post # 24, Mecha Ethics: Tens or hundreds or thousands of Britannian soldiers obeyed Euphemia's orders to kill Japanese at the Fuji stadium. Unless you have proof that Lelouch knew that Euphemia was the last Britannian left at Fuji then he should have captured her and used her as a hostage to stop the massacre instead of killing her.

    And don't forget that Euphemia broadcast an order to kill Japanese at the beginning of episode 23. If any Britannian military units not at the Fuji Stadium were close enough to receive that message then there would have been other massacres taking place in other locations beside the Fuji stadium and the surrounding area that the surviving Japanese fled to. Could the Black Knights have learned about all those other massacres and stopped them before Lelouch found Euphemia? Probably not. So Lelouch should have captured Euphemia and broadcast a message threatening to kill her unless all the Britannians who heard it stopped killing at once. Not doing so makes Lelouch guilty of murdering all the Japanese who might have been killed after he could have used Euphemia as a hostage to stop the massacre or massacres.


    from post # 19, Mecha ethics: And remember Euphemia broadcasting an order to kill Japanese at the beginning of episode 23. If that order was received by any Britannian soldiers who were not at the stadium, and obeyed, there would have been other massacres taking place besides the Fuji Stadium Massacre. It seems highly unlikely that the Black Knights had already heard about and stopped those other massacres by the time that Lelouch found Euphemia. Thus Euphemia should still have been valuable as a hostage to stop those other massacres even if she was the last Britannian still fighting at Fuji.

    And if Lelouch and the Black Knights were defeated having Euphemia as a prisoner to trade could save the lives of many Japanese, many Black Knights, and even Lelouch himself. Since nobody knew all Lelouch's plans and goals with the possible exception of CC who cold not be counted on to carry on after Lelouch's death, Lelouch's death would have been the total end to all his plans. Thus if he had any desire to protect his followers and if he wanted to have even the slightest chance of surviving defeat to try again, Lelouch had to keep Euphemia alive to trade for their lives in the case of a defeat, which only an arrogant jerk would not consider likely enough to plan for.

    And Lelouch should have known that if Euphemia survived, even if he was defeated and captured before being able to use her to bargain for mercy, Euphemia would use what little influence she had to plead for Lelouch's life, and thus reduce his chances of being executed from possibly about 99 percent to possibly about 95 percent.

    And of course if the Black Rebellion was defeated the fate of thousands and millions of Japanese would largely be in the hands of Cornelia. If Euphemia was alive she would try to restrain Cornelia's violent tendencies, while if Euphemia was killed Cornelia's anger could result in many thousands or millions of extra Japanese deaths. And even after Lelouch gave Euphemia the command to kill the Japanese Cornelia's greater power meant that a dead Euphemia and an enraged Cornelia would be more dangerous to the Japanese than a live but discredited and probably considered insane Euphemia trying to use her lesser authority and influence to kill as many Japanese as possible.


    from post # 179, Did Euphemia Escape from her Geass Before Lelouch Shot her?: And Lelouch might have been able to use Euphemia to force some military or political concession out of Cornelia.

    For example, he might force her to agree to march her army to meet his at a specified time and place. Lelouch could tell his followers that if a few of them were stationed at points A, B, And C on the map they could trap Cornelia's army. And Cornelia would tell her men that Zero was planning to put men at points A, B, And C to trap them but she would foil him by sending some of her men to points D and E to trap the rebels. And Zero would privately tell his commanders that Cornelia would no doubt plan to trap them by sending men to points D and E but they could trap them and the rest of Cornelia's army with units at points F and G!


    from post # 179 Did Euphemia Escape From Her Geass Before Lelouch Shot Her?: And later Lelouch privately gloated to CC that the Emperor would have to meet Zero once the rebels proclaimed an independent Japan in the Government Center in the Tokyo Settlement. Which is like saying king George III would have had to come to the United States as soon as he heard about the Declaration of independence. So Lelouch privately told his only confidant that he had no plan prepared to defend against the weeks and months and years of attacks from Brittannia which would have occurred instead of the visit from Emperor Charles.

    Lelouch desperately needed to keep as many Britannians as possible alive, especially Cornelia and above all Euphemia, to trick the Emperor into thinking it was safe to come to Japan. Lelouch could not expect that anyone who knew Euphemia even slightly, like her father did, would believe the massacre story. Instead they would believe that the Japanese had made up the story and faked the videos to justify the murder of an innocent girl. It would have been incredibly suicidal for the Emperor to go to Japan if Euphemia was alive, since he was hated much more than she was, and thousands of times less likely for him to go there if she was dead.

    So Lelouch killed his plan by killing Euphemia. Lelouch must have been irrational with anger ever since the announcement of the SAZ plan; that seems like the only explanation for killing Euphemia.


    In post # 273 wolfgirl90 wrote:

    But again, you STILL waited until then to figure it out, so you really shouldn't "congratulate" yourself on anything.

    That's like failing a test but congratulating yourself because you got a higher failing grade than the others. You have nothing to be proud of. Do you want a cookie? Or would you prefer to wallow in your own sense of self-satisfaction? Oh wait, you are already doing that. Maybe I should use the word "roll" instead of wallow; I wouldn't want to insult animals by comparing them to you."

    But many of you say that I should accept Lelouch or Celestial Being, despite their flaws, as being better than their enemies.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-22-2010 at 11:58 PM.

  25. #275
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    However, again, Lelouch was thinking of a way to get the most out of what was happening (to spark the Black Rebellion) along with getting Euphemia to stop. He chose to kill to her because it accomplishes both at the same time. This is the reason and there really isn't anything much to discuss beyond that (its not that hard to grasp). The plan worked, so there is not much to discuss as for as effectiveness or how he could have come to that conclusion.

    Was it truly the best idea that Lelouch could have chosen? Again, who knows; this can be debated for eternity with no right answer. Got a problem with it? Take it up Sunrise.
    You say that Lelouch was thinking of a way to spark the Black Rebellion and get Euphemia to stop killing Japanese people. You left out a third thing that he should have thought was more important than the other two combined: getting hundreds or thousands of Britannian soldiers to stop killing Japanese people at a much faster rate than Euphemia was killing them. The fastest way to get them to stop was to capture Euphemia and use her as a hostage to get the Britannians to stop the massacre. If that worked it would save many more Japanese lives than finding and defeating the scattered Britannians one by one.

    Not using Euphemia as hostage may have let tens, or hundreds, or thousands, of Japanese be killed.

    I keep telling you that Lelouch did not have to kill Euphemia to get Japanese support. Capturing her and telling the angry Japanese that she was innocent by reason of insanity or mind control or something would work just as well, He could point out that despite the massacre order being totally out of character for sweet, innocent, kind, gentle Euphemia, her Britannian soldiers had eagerly obeyed it without question, just as they had eagerly obeyed massacre orders from Clovis and Cornelia. If any suspected that something might be wrong with Euphemia they hadn't cared to question and maybe lose the fun of another brutal slaughter.

    Someday Euphemia might be cured of her madness. Someday Britannia might somehow, somewhere, find another good and decent Britannian to rule them. But who knows how many years or decades that might take. And in the meantime, the only way to prevent more and more such massacres was to drive the Britannian soldiers out of Japan. Only then could they be free of the fear of another massacre any time and any place.

    Doesn't that seem like the basic theme for a great rabble rousing speech that would get Zero just as much support as the one he made in episode 23, but without killing Euphemia? Wouldn't the dramatic effect of unexpectedly not blaming Euphemia personally, saying that she had gone insane or been possessed, but blaming it on the evil Britannian government which turns its soldiers into evil men willing to massacre any time, be even stronger than the speech Lelouch did make?

    Remember episode 21 when Ogri and Villetta were walking though Ogri's neighborhood and they came to the gates of Ashford Academy? Do you remember Ogri showing his I.D. card or submitting to a retinal scan before the gates were opened? Of course, not, because the gates were open and they just strolled in as many Elevens where in the habit of doing.

    Apparently the administrators of Ashford are not afraid that any of the thousands of Japanese living within walking distance are anti-Britannian enough to attack anyone at the school. Thus it is established that the thousands of Japanese who live within walking distance of Ashford are on the surface quite contented with their status as Elevens and have not been causing any trouble. They must be as contented as any group of Japanese in all of Area Eleven.

    But in episode 24 I think Villetta was on the phone with Ogri when a group of Japanese from their neighborhood, suspecting her of spying on them, broke into Ogri's apartment and were defeated in hand-to-hand combat by Villetta who remembered her lost memories.

    Clearly the excitement of the news about the Black Rebellion had brought to the surface any anti-Britannian feelings they might have had, and they also felt a strong desire to jump onto the bandwagon and do what Japanese all over Japan were doing when they heard about the spreading tide of uprisings.

    I say the success of the Black Knights in defeating the Britannians at Fuji and saving the survivors of the massacre and then starting to march on Tokyo had caused thousands of Japanese rebels belonging to almost all the rebel groups to strike at Britannian targets and that had caused millions of Japanese to suddenly become very militantly anti-Britannian and eager for the rebellion to succeed.

    "Nothing succeeds like success", and mob psychology makes people want to do what "everyone" is doing today, even joining a mass revolt.

    I say that was what gave Zero his great popularity, not shooting Euphemia. And in episode 24 Lelouch gloated to his confidant CC that once the rebels declared Japanese independence in the Government center of the Tokyo Settlement the Emperor would have to come to meet Zero.

    Lelouch would not have said that unless it was very important part of his plans, and an important step toward victory.

    But Lelouch was wrong about the Emperor's choices. An absolute monarch like Charles always had a choice.

    Charles could chose not to accept Zero's invitation to walk into his trap. So that meant that Lelouch should have realized that the most important audience for his propaganda was not the Japanese public, not the Britannian public, not world opinion, but Emperor Charles and his closest advisers.

    So that means that once Lelouch had a plan to lure Charles into a trap, he had to do everything that he could do to trick the Emperor into thinking that Zero was not a vengeance-crazed monster, but a reasonable and honorable person.

    So when he planned to make Euphemia shoot him at the SAZ opening, he should have realized that if he captured Euphemia and publicly forgave her for trying to kill him, saying that she had gone crazy with a desire to get revenge for her brother Clovis, that would show all the world that Zero wanted to defeat Britannia but would not take wild vengeance on all Britannians and would even show mercy to a royal Britannian who had treacherously tried to kill him.

    Can you imagine Euphemia coming out of her geass trance and being told what she did and denying it and seeing videos and begging Zero for forgiveness and being told he forgave him and and being eternally grateful to him? And perhaps Zero would say he would forgive her if she gave up her loyalty to Britannia, and maybe Euphemia renounced her Britannian loyalty and agreed to follow Zero? Then Zero could say that Britannia turns even innocent girls into vengeance-crazed monsters. Britannia is not fit to rule Japan any more. And then he could list all the real and exaggerated crimes of Britannia and call on the Japanese to uprise against Britannia.

    That might have lost him the support of some Japanese who thought that he was too weak, but it would gain him the admiration of millions around the world. And if it made Emperor Charles and his advisers think that Zero was so contemptibly noble and weak that he could never plan a treacherous attack on a guest and made them more willing to stick their heads into the noose, that would be all the better for Lelouch's plan.

    So if Lelouch had something like that planned earlier, then when the massacre started he would have realized that showing mercy to Euphemia after the massacre and blaming it on the Britannian Government would make an even bigger positive impression on millions of people around the world and and would make Emperor Charles and his advisers dismiss Zero as a harmless naive innocent honorable fool who would never treacherously attack a guest invited for talks.

    But Lelouch should have known that if he killed Euphemia anyone who knew her (like her father) would doubt the massacre story and believe it was a lie backed up with faded videos to justify murdering her. Lelouch should have expected Emperor Charles to to think: "That God that vengeance-crazed Zero killed Euphemia and showed me how much he hates me and all my family. Now I'll never be stupid enough to accept an invitation to go to Tokyo to meet him."

    Lelouch should have known that killing Euphemia would make Emperor Charles tens, or hundreds or thousands, of times less likely to accept the invitation to meet Zero, which was a vital part of Lelouch's plan. If Charles didn't accept the invitation he would send his armies to invade and reconquer Japan instead. By gloating to CC that Charles would have to come to Tokyo, Lelouch showed that because he so intensely wanted Charles to walk into his trap he had come to believe that it was inevitable that Charles would walk into his trap and he didn't have to worry about scaring Charles away. And he revealed that he was so overconfident that Charles would walk into his trap that he had no plans for defeating the massive Britannian invasions that would come.

    I say that Lelouch should have known that he needed a live Euphemia for his plan to work, but he killed her anyway.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-25-2010 at 10:48 PM.

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