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Thread: *SPOILERS* The shot that killed My Love for Anime

  1. #226
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Here's the SAZ:


    Not even joking, the SAZ is literally THAT stadium and that stadium alone. Not the area around it, but THAT STADIUM is the SAZ. I based my approximation of its size simply by using the size of the largest stadium in the world and then being REALLY generous.


    Look at the picture. Not even joking.
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    The SAZ is located within the sector itself, which would be the stadium (every other time they mentioned the SAZ, they showed an empty stadium).
    I want to know what source specifically said that the SAZ included only the stadium.

    If the caption says "The Special Administrative Zone" or something like that, the caption is not conclusive.

    I have seen a lot of establishing shots which show the capitol dome and the caption: "Washington DC" or a bulbous-domed orthadox cathedral and the caption: "Moscow". And news programs often show a logo or a photograph to represent a place or event that is much bigger.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-08-2010 at 09:19 PM.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    , "The Shot Which Killed my Love of Anime".
    I can see the humor in that.
    " I am death and sorrow." -Acheron



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  3. #228
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimi no kioku View Post
    Weren't the Japanese people happy with the SAZ at first? Until the massacre, they weren't upset. It's not like it was offensive.
    Although I could be biased, Euphy was my second favorite character in the series.
    Until episode 23, Euphie was not even my second favorite character. She was merely obviously the best person in the cast. I don't think that I could have ranked the characters in order of liking with any precision. I was just watching the flow of events and enjoying myself without thinking about moral issues, and then Lelouch shot Euphemia. That started me thinking seriously about the series, and I soon realized that almost every single character is evil by my standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimi no kioku View Post
    Euphy wasn't wrong to believe Lelouch. He really loved her and she knew it. Lelouch was angry and wasn't thinking straight. He would never have killed her if he didn't feel he had to.
    If that is true, how could Lelouch possibly think that he had to kill her?

    In history millions of prisoners locked up in jails and dungeons have been executed, murdered, starved to death, or otherwise killed. And how could anyone who had any single one of them killed think that he had to kill his prisoner, that he couldnt just keep them locked up for years or decades more?

    And killing someone who would be as fast, as easy, and as safe to capture alive as Euphemia would have been can never be any more necessary than killing someone who is already your prisoner and locked up could be. That is why I say that it was one of the most evil (fictional) murders (of a single individual) ever shown on tv. Because it is so obvious that Lelouch could have captured Euphemia alive just as fast, as easy, and as safely as he killed her. How could he possibly not see how easy it would be to capture her alive? How could a good and rational person think that he had to kill Euphemia?
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-08-2010 at 09:47 PM.

  4. #229
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Eden View Post
    Euphy wasn't stupid. Her naivety stemmed from the fact she was a royal princess. She was no were near the intense naivety of (sorry) Princess Marina Ismael of Gundam 00. I mean, her errant pacifism wasn't too bad, until the event in which A-Laws was attacking the house that Katharon was hiding out in. Claus was badly injured, and trying to cover her, Shirin, ind a bunch of small children's escape. Once outside Shirin hands Marina a gun to protect the children with once the split up. She wouldn't take it. I guess the orphans weren't worth shedding some blood over. I guess killing people who just willingly murdered 60,000 civilians is wrong. I know it wasn't the A-Laws fault, it was Ribbons' fault. But Marina and the other Katharon members had no way of knowing that.
    Remember guns don't protect as well as force shields or not being detected by the enemy.

    Perhaps Marina and the orphans would be safer if she didn't have a gun and their only hope was to run and/or hide from the A-Laws and fighting was totally out of the question. Trying to fight off a group of armed men with only one gun would probably not work out very well.

    I remember a story by Robert Heinlein, who was NOT a pacifist, in which someone going into an unknown wilderness was advised not to take a gun, because having a gun might make him feel overconfident and thus get him killed.

    And Marina the pacifist probably didn't have much weapons training or skills. She might have tripped and accidentally shot one of the orphans and attracted the attentions of the A-Laws who would then kill them all.

    And Marina might have thought that the gun would be more useful in the hands of someone who would be willing to use it, that giving it to her would waste it's potential to protect people from the A-Laws. Of course as a pacifist she might have decided it was better to give a gun to someone who would never use it than to someone who might use it. Decisions, decisions.

    But, much as I admire Marina's pure pacifism, I think that when she had the lives of children to consider she had to accept the gun, but try to be just as cautious and wary as if she did not have a gun.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-08-2010 at 10:20 PM.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Until episode 23, Euphie was not even my second favorite character. She was merely obviously the best person in the cast. I don't think that I could have ranked the characters in order of liking with any precision. I was just watching the flow of events and enjoying myself without thinking about moral issues, and then Lelouch shot Euphemia. That started me thinking seriously about the series, and I soon realized that almost every single character is evil by my standards.
    ...What? The best person in the cast? She was just being shy half the time, like Nina.
    And excuse me, there were already moral issues Before Lelouch shot Euphemia. For example how the japanese were being opressed by the Britannians, their freedom and their rights. It was mentioned in, what, the first 30 seconds of the first episode? Before the opening theme, even. Didn't you notice that?
    Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia or she would be killing more japanese by the second. She was under Geass, and by that point we know that the Geass can't be removed till the order has been completed, and you can't stop it, either. So Lelouch Had to shoot her or she'd go on killing.
    Almost every single character's evil? I'll pass Nina for now, but if you watch, you'll see that there's no clear right or wrong. Everyone's doing what they're doing for their own satisfaction and purposes. Re-define your definition of Evil please.



    Quote Originally Posted by ProEuphie View Post
    If that is true, how could Lelouch possibly think that he had to kill her?

    In history millions of prisoners locked up in jails and dungeons have been executed, murdered, starved to death, or otherwise killed. And how could anyone who had any single one of them killed think that he had to kill his prisoner, that he couldnt just keep them locked up for years or decades more?

    And killing someone who would be as fast, as easy, and as safe to capture alive as Euphemia would have been can never be any more necessary than killing someone who is already your prisoner and locked up could be. That is why I say that it was one of the most evil (fictional) murders (of a single individual) ever shown on tv. Because it is so obvious that Lelouch could have captured Euphemia alive just as fast, as easy, and as safely as he killed her. How could he possibly not see how easy it would be to capture her alive? How could a good and rational person think that he had to kill Euphemia?
    You've been over this before.

    Tell me, would you want to see Euphemia being locked up in some Godforsaken cell for the rest of her life in Geass control, going crazy because she can't slay any more elevens? Think of it as putting her out of her misery.
    Besides, after that incident there is so much more action going on the frontlines. Would the producers even Want to bother going back to Euphemia? No. Every minute of screen time is precious. It means viewer ratings. If you Want to see Euphemia after that incident, you are fully welcome to write to the producers and request a Euphemia mini-movie after she goes crazy with the Geass, that will run for eternity. Seriously.

    Yeah, Euphemia'd be alive but she'd be insane for the rest of her life. Where's your conscience? Isn't she your favourite anime character? ._.
    ---
    MEMENTO MORI,
    IF THE NINETH LION ATE THE SUN.



  6. #231
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I want to know what source specifically said that the SAZ included only the stadium.
    What..."source"? Umm...the SHOW?! Again, what kind of question is that, troll? I believe you what to ask me where in the show it is mentioned, rather than a specific source.

    Just about every time that they mentioned the SAZ, they showed the stadium (which, my I remind you, is not exactly small). On the side of the stadium, there is a sign that says its the construction site for the SAZ. Also, there are people registering for the SAZ at the stadium. Really, the only thing they didn't do was mention it outright.

    Of course, WHERE the SAZ was (or was going to be) or its size isn't that important. My point was that it was a rather naive idea made by a naive girl (or rather two naive girls) that failed twice.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I was just watching the flow of events and enjoying myself without thinking about moral issues, and then Lelouch shot Euphemia. That started me thinking seriously about the series, and I soon realized that almost every single character is evil by my standards.
    You started thinking about moral issues THEN?! Did you not notice that Japan was invaded by Britannia, a nation that basically runs on Darwinism (just like xRiikox said, this is explained within the first 30 seconds or so in the very first episode [and repeated for several episode after that])? Didn't you notice that Lelouch killed Clovis for revenge against the FAMILY and not Clovis himself? Or that Clovis ordered the complete destruction of the Shinjiku Ghetto despite the obvious heavy presence of civilians? Or that Cornelia did the same thing with the Saitama Ghetto just to get rid of a resistance group? Or even when the Japan Liberation Front started killing innocent people to prove a point to Britannia?

    You weren't thinking serious during all of this? Shows where your morals lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    How could he possibly not see how easy it would be to capture her alive? How could a good and rational person think that he had to kill Euphemia?
    Well, xRiikox answered that so I'll let her handle it (I have told you enough as it is). Although, I must laugh at the fact that you called Lelouch "good". Did you miss the 22 episodes that came before that? Wasn't one of the first things that he did with his Geass was to order a group of Britannian soldiers to kill themselves in his name?

    However, again, Lelouch was thinking of a way to get the most out of what was happening (to spark the Black Rebellion) along with getting Euphemia to stop. He chose to kill to her because it accomplishes both at the same time. This is the reason and there really isn't anything much to discuss beyond that (its not that hard to grasp). The plan worked, so there is not much to discuss as for as effectiveness or how he could have come to that conclusion.

    Was it truly the best idea that Lelouch could have chosen? Again, who knows; this can be debated for eternity with no right answer. Got a problem with it? Take it up Sunrise.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Remember guns don't protect as well as force shields or not being detected by the enemy.
    "Not being detected by the enemy"? It was too late for that; the A-Laws already found them (then again, you haven't seen the show and vehemently refuse to do so I do not know why you are talking about it...again...even after you said you didn't want to).

    I understand not wanting to fight off a group of armed men because it wouldn't "work well", but fighting back is much better than doing absolutely nothing. It wasn't about the soldiers, it was about her. SHE was didn't want to take the gun because SHE was afraid of what the orphans might think or say about HER.
    This is my war face.

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  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    I understand not wanting to fight off a group of armed men because it wouldn't "work well", but fighting back is much better than doing absolutely nothing. It wasn't about the soldiers, it was about her. SHE was didn't want to take the gun because SHE was afraid of what the orphans might think or say about HER.
    Exactly. Marina was a fool in every sense of the word.

    By the way, I like evil characters sometimes, I find them far more interesting than goody-goody-two-shoes.
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  8. #233
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    Watch episode 21, Wolfgirl. Euphy clearly says:
    "The area surrounding mount Fuji. The stadium is just the place where they were announcing the SAZ's debut. I really hate to argue with you, as I am on your side in all this.

    And on a side note:
    Proeuphie, I have a serious question. Did you think Light Yagami of Death Note was evil?
    (Don't worry, I'm going somewhere with this...
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  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimi no kioku View Post
    Exactly. Marina was a fool in every sense of the word.

    By the way, I like evil characters sometimes, I find them far more interesting than goody-goody-two-shoes.
    Yeah, this may cause proEuphie to have a moral conniption fit, but one of my favorite characters in Code Geass would be Cornelia.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Eden View Post
    Watch episode 21, Wolfgirl. Euphy clearly says:
    "The area surrounding mount Fuji. The stadium is just the place where they were announcing the SAZ's debut. I really hate to argue with you, as I am on your side in all this.
    Oh, its quite all right. Something needs to be actually debated here so long as proEuphie is on her "evil-Gundam-Geass-bork-bork" rant.

    I know what she said; whether that size would have actually happened can be easily debated, what with Darlton and every other Britannian noble going after Mt. Fuji for its sakuradite like a fat man to a bag of Cheetos.

    Of course, like I said before, my point was less about the size of SAZ and/or its relative location (its not discussed for too long anyway; Euphemia announces the SAZ in episode 21, an episode later she's killing people and another one after that she's dead with her pet project up in smoke) and more about the concept of the SAZ in and of itself.
    This is my war face.

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  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Yeah, this may cause proEuphie to have a moral conniption fit, but one of my favorite characters in Code Geass would be Cornelia.
    Yeah, I really like Rolo from Nightmare of Nunnally(one of the most evil characters) I actually
     
    stopped reading it after chapter 22

    Okay, I stopped after Euphy became empress.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    I know what she said; whether that size would have actually happened can be easily debated, what with Darlton and every other Britannian noble going after Mt. Fuji for its sakuradite like a fat man to a bag of Cheetos.
    I'm guessing it was a play on words. The area around MT.Fuji, but the actual mountain was still under Britannian control.

    BTW, why does everyone keep posting on this board? Wouldn't it be easier just to let it die?


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  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Yeah, I really like Rolo from Nightmare of Nunnally(one of the most evil characters) I actually
     
    stopped reading it after chapter 22

    Okay, I stopped after Euphy became empress.
    I felt Rolo was okay in the anime. Until
     
    He Killed Shirley.
    She was one of my favourite characters (actually most of them are) next to Lelouch. And they were just getting it together too. But great work, sunrise producers. They created an elegy instead, like it has to be. Sigh. I could rant on because the episode's fresh in my brain (watched it yesterday) but I'd be like someone. Besides, my point is I dislike Rolo as much as Lelouch does now. Also because of his utter spinelessness after Lelouch/Zero brought him over to his side. It's disturbing, but I guess he managed to seriously convince/delude himself into believing Lelouch is a kind person. Remember that Lelouch is solely devoted to Nunnally...


    Euphy would be useless as empress. Britannia would collapse? Would be fun, though to see Lelouch obtain total world domination.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    I'm guessing it was a play on words. The area around MT.Fuji, but the actual mountain was still under Britannian control.

    BTW, why does everyone keep posting on this board? Wouldn't it be easier just to let it die?
    Well so it would seem. I don't think the Britannian leaders would be so generous.

    Because it's really, really fun to debate/argue with ProEuphie. There are multiple political issues in Code Geass that have not been discussed.
    And of course, as you've seen, some people are just along for the ride, to see how long this thread can get before it shuts down. And this wasn't the first of her threads, either.
    ---
    MEMENTO MORI,
    IF THE NINETH LION ATE THE SUN.



  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Yeah, this may cause proEuphie to have a moral conniption fit, but one of my favorite characters in Code Geass would be Cornelia.
    Well that depends on what level her morals are. I sure didn't see her thowing a fit over how many elevens were killed. Mine's definitely Lelouch. And Shirley.



    [quote-wolfgirl90;2396934]Oh, its quite all right. Something needs to be actually debated here so long as proEuphie is on her "evil-Gundam-Geass-bork-bork" rant.

    I know what she said; whether that size would have actually happened can be easily debated, what with Darlton and every other Britannian noble going after Mt. Fuji for its sakuradite like a fat man to a bag of Cheetos.

    Of course, like I said before, my point was less about the size of SAZ and/or its relative location (its not discussed for too long anyway; Euphemia announces the SAZ in episode 21, an episode later she's killing people and another one after that she's dead with her pet project up in smoke) and more about the concept of the SAZ in and of itself.[/quote]

    Gundam And Code Geass? Double whammy. bork-bork sounds like something being hit with one of those plastic hammers.

    Her "pet project", the SAZ, seemed more like Cornelia indulging her younger sister's whims. (Not that I'm saying it's specifically Cornelia, but still.) So the SAZ wasn't taken seriously by the Britannians in the first place. (Assumptions, assumptions...)

    Gomen ne for double posting, but I'm not sure how to quote two people in one post.
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  13. #238
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    ...What? The best person in the cast? She was just being shy half the time, like Nina.
    She was the only person who was fit to be the protagonist of a series about war, revolution, and intrigue, because she was the only character who cared enough about restricting violence to the absolute minimum necessary. I say that it is creepy and disgusting and corrupting to make the audience care about protagonists who don't care about human life enough to restrict their killing to the absolute minimum.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    And excuse me, there were already moral issues Before Lelouch shot Euphemia. For example how the japanese were being opressed by the Britannians, their freedom and their rights. It was mentioned in, what, the first 30 seconds of the first episode? Before the opening theme, even. Didn't you notice that?
    Yes, yes. But I don't care how much (fictional) evil is done by antagonist characters that the audience does not identify with or care about or like. Anyway, I saw that a lot of characters were doing evil, but I just watched the action without keeping track of all the evil that all the characters were doing.

    Which is what several people have told me that tv audiences want to do, that they don't want to think about moral issues but just enjoy a good story. And that was what I was doing until I saw Lelouch kill Euphemia when it would have been so easy to capture her. Then I realized that the creators of code Geass were insulting their audiences by figuring that the audiences would still care about Lelouch even after he did so obviously evil a deed.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia or she would be killing more japanese by the second. She was under Geass, and by that point we know that the Geass can't be removed till the order has been completed, and you can't stop it, either. So Lelouch Had to shoot her or she'd go on killing.
    Capturing her alive and confining her would be just as safe for the Japanese as if she was dead, but would be a lot better for her. Capturing her would have been just as fast, just as safe, and just as easy for Lelouch as killing her. Therefore capturing Euphemia was the best method of handling the problem. Lelouch HAD to capture Euphie alive or be too evil to be worth caring about.

    Besides by that time we saw that a geass command very similar to Euphemia's wore off shortly. That was Lelouch's similarly vague command to Suzaku to "live" or "survive". A day or two later Suzaku was fighting bravely against the Chinese invasion and Lelouch was not the least surprised. So the audience should have believed there was a strong probability that Euphemia's geass command would wear off soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Almost every single character's evil? I'll pass Nina for now, but if you watch, you'll see that there's no clear right or wrong. Everyone's doing what they're doing for their own satisfaction and purposes. Re-define your definition of Evil please.
    After Euphemia dies there's no clear right on the series but a lot of clear wrongs.

    I define an evil person as one who has ever killed or allowed to be killed even one person when it was not clearly immediately necessary. It might be immediately necessary to shoot at a group of the enemy, and maybe kill some of them, during a battle when they are shooting at a group of your men. Some people say that it is evil to go into battle and thus all killings in battle are evil. But in any case, unless it is immediately necessary to kill someone it is wrong to deliberately try to kill him in particular.

    It is right to look farther into the future than the immediate present to find reasons to not kill someone, but it is wrong to look into the non immediate future to find reasons to kill someone.

    I define an evil person as someone who during a conflict does not do something to reduce the amount of killing down toward the absolute minimum necessary.

    Since the Britannians sometimes massacre civilians that makes all the Britannians with military or political roles except for Euphemia and (first season) Suzaku evil. If people with no military or civilian political roles are exempted from trying to reduce the amount of bloodshed, then Milly, Rivalez, Shirley (until she shot Villetta) and (first season) Nunnally were also innocent enough to be not evil.

    In the first episode the rebel group were described as terrorists. And when Lelouch thought that they were incompetent he though "Some terrorists they are", obviously not considering them to be too good to be terrorists but incompetent at being terrorists. If it is correct that they were terrorists that makes Kallen and all the nucleus of the Black Knights evil.

    In "Get Cornelia" the inhabitants of the Saitema Ghetto harbored in their midst a rebel group described as terrorists. If the rebel group was correctly described as terrorists then the adult inhabitants of the Saitema Ghetto were evil.

    In "Black Knight" a group of the JLF, the main Japanese rebel group up to then, committed terrorism. If the main part of the JLF was not shown to condemn the terrorism than all the members of the JLF, including those who joined the Black Knights, were evil, and the Black Knights would be evil for accepting them.

    If every rebel group who accepted support from the Kyoto Group knew that some other groups who accepted support from the Kyoto group were terrorists, then the Kyoto Group and every member of every group which accepted support from the Kyoto Group was evil. And every Japanese person who knew that some of the rebel groups were terrorists and wanted the rebels to win anyway was evil. No good and decent person would care so much about a trivial and unimportant goal like getting his nation's independence back enough to accept terrorism as a method of achieving that goal.

    So almost everybody on the Japanese side was evil because they tolerated terrorism and other forms of excessive violence by members of their side.


    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    You've been over this before.
    Yes, and you defenders of Lelouch refuse to accept the obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Tell me, would you want to see Euphemia being locked up in some Godforsaken cell for the rest of her life in Geass control, going crazy because she can't slay any more elevens? Think of it as putting her out of her misery.
    Besides, after that incident there is so much more action going on the frontlines. Would the producers even Want to bother going back to Euphemia? No. Every minute of screen time is precious. It means viewer ratings. If you Want to see Euphemia after that incident, you are fully welcome to write to the producers and request a Euphemia mini-movie after she goes crazy with the Geass, that will run for eternity. Seriously.

    Yeah, Euphemia'd be alive but she'd be insane for the rest of her life. Where's your conscience? Isn't she your favourite anime character? ._.
    see my post # 138 on page 6 of this thread. And a live and somehow cured Euphemia owuld provide a much better happy ending for the series. And screen time spent on showing that Lelouch the protagonist was not evil enough to kill someone unnecessarily might not antagonize some viewers like me.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-11-2010 at 09:12 PM.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Yes, yes. But I don't care how much (fictional) evil is done by antagonist characters that the audience does not identify with or care about or like.
    It's quite funny how it being fictional evil doesn't bother you at all until now.
    Anyway, Lelouch was an antihero, almost an antagonist. I find that to be interesting every now and then. And alot of people like the antagonists.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    I felt Rolo was okay in the anime. Until
     
    He Killed Shirley.
    She was one of my favourite characters (actually most of them are) next to Lelouch. And they were just getting it together too. But great work, sunrise producers. They created an elegy instead, like it has to be. Sigh. I could rant on because the episode's fresh in my brain (watched it yesterday) but I'd be like someone. Besides, my point is I dislike Rolo as much as Lelouch does now. Also because of his utter spinelessness after Lelouch/Zero brought him over to his side. It's disturbing, but I guess he managed to seriously convince/delude himself into believing Lelouch is a kind person. Remember that Lelouch is solely devoted to Nunnally...
    I hated Rolo Lamperouge too. Rolo from NoN is Lelouch's twin and I thought he was cool. He doesn't kill anyone I like.
     
    Shirley
    was one of my favorite characters too. I agree with what you said about Rolo.

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Euphy would be useless as empress. Britannia would collapse? Would be fun, though to see Lelouch obtain total world domination.
    She wasn't as weak in the manga. She even [/spoiler] teams up with Lelouch and sends her army to fight Charles.[spoiler]
    Last edited by Rolo Vi Britannia; 03-10-2010 at 10:45 PM.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  15. #240
    Member Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    I felt Rolo was okay in the anime. Until
     
    He Killed Shirley.
    She was one of my favourite characters (actually most of them are) next to Lelouch. And they were just getting it together too. But great work, sunrise producers. They created an elegy instead, like it has to be. Sigh. I could rant on because the episode's fresh in my brain (watched it yesterday) but I'd be like someone. Besides, my point is I dislike Rolo as much as Lelouch does now. Also because of his utter spinelessness after Lelouch/Zero brought him over to his side. It's disturbing, but I guess he managed to seriously convince/delude himself into believing Lelouch is a kind person. Remember that Lelouch is solely devoted to Nunnally...


    Euphy would be useless as empress. Britannia would collapse? Would be fun, though to see Lelouch obtain total world domination.




    Well so it would seem. I don't think the Britannian leaders would be so generous.

    Because it's really, really fun to debate/argue with ProEuphie. There are multiple political issues in Code Geass that have not been discussed.
    And of course, as you've seen, some people are just along for the ride, to see how long this thread can get before it shuts down. And this wasn't the first of her threads, either.
    Nightmare of Nunnally's Rolo is Lelouch's biological twin brother, and lead inquisitor and cardinal of Eden Vital. He's actually the biggest badass in the manga.http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...aru12/Rolo.jpg
    ^There he is.
    Also, Euphy is only empress because Lelouch couldn't be.

    Oh, and Proeuphy, did you read post #233 Please answer the question.
    Last edited by Wicked Eden; 03-10-2010 at 11:40 PM.
    it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts

  16. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Eden View Post

    Oh, and Proeuphy, did you read post #2296663? Please answer the question.
    Actually, it's post # 233.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  17. #242
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Eden View Post
    Watch episode 21, Wolfgirl. Euphy clearly says:
    "The area surrounding mount Fuji. The stadium is just the place where they were announcing the SAZ's debut. I really hate to argue with you, as I am on your side in all this.

    And on a side note:
    Proeuphie, I have a serious question. Did you think Light Yagami of Death Note was evil?
    (Don't worry, I'm going somewhere with this...
    Of course.

  18. #243
    Member Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden has a reputation beyond repute Wicked Eden's Avatar
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    I edited it.
    it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts

  19. #244
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    What..."source"? Umm...the SHOW?! Again, what kind of question is that, troll? I believe you what to ask me where in the show it is mentioned, rather than a specific source.

    Just about every time that they mentioned the SAZ, they showed the stadium (which, my I remind you, is not exactly small). On the side of the stadium, there is a sign that says its the construction site for the SAZ. Also, there are people registering for the SAZ at the stadium. Really, the only thing they didn't do was mention it outright.

    Of course, WHERE the SAZ was (or was going to be) or its size isn't that important. My point was that it was a rather naive idea made by a naive girl (or rather two naive girls) that failed twice.
    It failed twice because an evil schemer twice interfered with it to further his plans for violence and destruction.

    A naive girl who will become more experienced and competent is of more use than thousands of competent but already evil persons.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    You started thinking about moral issues THEN?! Did you not notice that Japan was invaded by Britannia, a nation that basically runs on Darwinism (just like xRiikox said, this is explained within the first 30 seconds or so in the very first episode [and repeated for several episode after that])? Didn't you notice that Lelouch killed Clovis for revenge against the FAMILY and not Clovis himself? Or that Clovis ordered the complete destruction of the Shinjiku Ghetto despite the obvious heavy presence of civilians? Or that Cornelia did the same thing with the Saitama Ghetto just to get rid of a resistance group? Or even when the Japan Liberation Front started killing innocent people to prove a point to Britannia?

    You weren't thinking serious during all of this? Shows where your morals lie.
    I quote from my post # 238:

    Yes, yes. But I don't care how much (fictional) evil is done by antagonist characters that the audience does not identify with or care about or like. Anyway, I saw that a lot of characters were doing evil, but I just watched the action without keeping track of all the evil that all the characters were doing.

    Which is what several people have told me that tv audiences want to do, that they don't want to think about moral issues but just enjoy a good story. And that was what I was doing until I saw Lelouch kill Euphemia when it would have been so easy to capture her. Then I realized that the creators of code Geass were insulting their audiences by figuring that the audiences would still care about Lelouch even after he did so obviously evil a deed.


    I kept making excuses for the evil that Lelouch the protagonist did, just as his defenders still keep making excuses for murdering Euphie or the geass directorate massacre. for example, I excused murdering the JLF leaders because they were just evil terrorists. I excused murdering Clovis because of the practical problems which would result from his knowing that Lelouch was alive. I wanted to excuse Lelouch's crimes because I liked him. And then I was rewarded for my low ethical standards with the senseless murder of Euphemia.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Well, xRiikox answered that so I'll let her handle it (I have told you enough as it is). Although, I must laugh at the fact that you called Lelouch "good". Did you miss the 22 episodes that came before that? Wasn't one of the first things that he did with his Geass was to order a group of Britannian soldiers to kill themselves in his name?
    I was comparing Lelouch's behavior with a that of a good and rational person, to show the difference. I answered xRikox in my post # 238 with:

    Capturing her alive and confining her would make her just as safe for the Japanese as if she was dead, but would be a lot better for her. Capturing her would have been just as fast, just as safe, and just as easy for Lelouch as killing her. Therefore capturing Euphemia was the best method of handling the problem. Lelouch HAD to capture Euphie alive or be too evil to be worth caring about.

    Besides by that time we saw that a geass command very similar to Euphemia's wore off shortly. That was Lelouch's similarly vague command to Suzaku to "live" or "survive". A day or two later Suzaku was fighting bravely against the Chinese invasion and Lelouch was not the least surprised. So the audience should have believed there was a strong probability that Euphemia's geass command would wear off soon.


    and also:

    And screen time spent on showing that Lelouch the protagonist was not evil enough to kill someone unnecessarily might not antagonize some viewers like me.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    However, again, Lelouch was thinking of a way to get the most out of what was happening (to spark the Black Rebellion) along with getting Euphemia to stop. He chose to kill to her because it accomplishes both at the same time. This is the reason and there really isn't anything much to discuss beyond that (its not that hard to grasp). The plan worked, so there is not much to discuss as for as effectiveness or how he could have come to that conclusion.
    Why do you reply to my ethical questions with discussions of the alleged practical value of killing Euphemia, as if that has anything to to with the case?

    I say that in a situation like the massacre it is evil and wrong to think about political or military gain for your cause.

    You keep saying that Euphemia as an individual was killing Japanese people when actually perhaps thousands of Britannian soldiers were also killing Japanese people at the Fuji Stadium Massacre and possibly in other massacres started by Euphemia's broadcast and the fastest way to get the soldiers to stop was to capture Euphemia and use her as a hostage to get them to stop. By killing Euphemia instead of using her as a hostage Lelouch might have let thousands of Japanese die.

    And Lelouch's totally unnecessary plan to get even more Japanese support than he got by rescuing the survivors of the massacre by killing Euphemia (and thus letting more Japanese die in the massacre) made it impossible for his bigger plan of the Black Rebellion to succeed, as I have pointed out in several posts where I prove that Lelouch needed a live Euphemia for his plans to work and killed her anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Was it truly the best idea that Lelouch could have chosen? Again, who knows; this can be debated for eternity with no right answer. Got a problem with it? Take it up Sunrise.
    As I wrote above, I proved in several posts months ago that Lelouch needed a live Euphemia for his bigger plan of the Black Rebellion to succeed and killed her anyway.

    And from an ethical standpoint there is no debate. Killing someone as easy to capture as Euphemia was is always murder.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-11-2010 at 12:38 AM.

  20. #245
    Would You Kindly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Eden View Post
    Nightmare of Nunnally's Rolo is Lelouch's biological twin brother, and lead inquisitor and cardinal of Eden Vital. He's actually the biggest badass in the manga.http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...aru12/Rolo.jpg
    ^There he is.
    Also, Euphy is only empress because Lelouch couldn't be.
    Ahh yes, there he is. I see (: So Much Better than Rolo of the anime, though he was necessary there. I really should get to the NoN manga series then.

    Yeah, Lelouch as empress would be *disturbing* but in the end the manga does vary widely from the anime, so everything's justifiable. The drawing styles for the various manga are all different though.
    ---
    MEMENTO MORI,
    IF THE NINETH LION ATE THE SUN.



  21. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    It failed twice because an evil schemer twice interfered with it to further his plans for violence and destruction.

    A naive girl who will become more experienced and competent is of more use than thousands of competent but already evil persons.
    Again: the Point, the POINT.

    The whole point behind that scene was to show that a naive girl Won't last long on the cruel battlefield that is portrayed in Code Geass. And she wasn't supposed to Live On and Become More Experienced, her initial naivety Already Killed her.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I quote from my post # 238:

    Yes, yes. But I don't care how much (fictional) evil is done by antagonist characters that the audience does not identify with or care about or like. Anyway, I saw that a lot of characters were doing evil, but I just watched the action without keeping track of all the evil that all the characters were doing.

    Which is what several people have told me that tv audiences want to do, that they don't want to think about moral issues but just enjoy a good story. And that was what I was doing until I saw Lelouch kill Euphemia when it would have been so easy to capture her. Then I realized that the creators of code Geass were insulting their audiences by figuring that the audiences would still care about Lelouch even after he did so obviously evil a deed.

    Well it shows that you did care about the evil. And sadly, the audience DOES empathise, care about and coincidentally Happen to like Lelouch.

    And that's exactly what you should have continued doing! The storyline was and is good. Lelouch killed many others before Euphemia, if you didn't notice. All those britannian soldiers. I don't get why you care so much about Euphemia's death when there were so many others. Quote the Eunuch Generals:

    "Zero, when you walk, do you try to avoid stepping on the insects on the ground?"

    Yes so Euphemia's death was just another event in a long, long chain of deaths. Unfortunately Euphemia was naive. Naive enough to meet Zero personally. And that was how she was rewarded, no? And the wheel goes round and round and round...that's how the plot works. And it works well, I might tell you. No matter how grieved you are, you still have to get over it for the next part of the anime. It's Sunrise's style.

    Well they figured right! Looking by the huge amount of Lelouch fans.



    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I kept making excuses for the evil that Lelouch the protagonist did, just as his defenders still keep making excuses for murdering Euphie or the geass directorate massacre. for example, I excused murdering the JLF leaders because they were just evil terrorists. I excused murdering Clovis because of the practical problems which would result from his knowing that Lelouch was alive. I wanted to excuse Lelouch's crimes because I liked him. And then I was rewarded for my low ethical standards with the senseless murder of Euphemia.
    It wasn't senseless murder if you look at it. But maybe it will be if you keep making it out to yourself that it is so.

    It was an accident. Lelouch, in an amused tone was trying to illustrate the power of his Geass and just so happened to jokingly give that command, sparked by what was going on outside. We could all see the horrified expression on his face when he knows Euphemia has fallen under his Geass, because he knows what is going to happen. The last resort was to kill her.

    And as We All Know, from the start Lelouch's main aim is to overthrow Britannia, no matter what. Like I said earlier, everyone you think is doing evil does not consider it evil, merely as part of the process to get what they really want.

    Not excluding Euphemia.



    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I was comparing Lelouch's behavior with a that of a good and rational person, to show the difference. I answered xRiikox in my post # 238 with:

    Capturing her alive and confining her would make her just as safe for the Japanese as if she was dead, but would be a lot better for her. Capturing her would have been just as fast, just as safe, and just as easy for Lelouch as killing her. Therefore capturing Euphemia was the best method of handling the problem. Lelouch HAD to capture Euphie alive or be too evil to be worth caring about.

    Besides by that time we saw that a geass command very similar to Euphemia's wore off shortly. That was Lelouch's similarly vague command to Suzaku to "live" or "survive". A day or two later Suzaku was fighting bravely against the Chinese invasion and Lelouch was not the least surprised. So the audience should have believed there was a strong probability that Euphemia's geass command would wear off soon.

    and also:

    And screen time spent on showing that Lelouch the protagonist was not evil enough to kill someone unnecessarily might not antagonize some viewers like me.



    Why do you reply to my ethical questions with discussions of the alleged practical value of killing Euphemia, as if that has anything to to with the case?

    I say that in a situation like the massacre it is evil and wrong to think about political or military gain for your cause.

    You keep saying that Euphemia as an individual was killing Japanese people when actually perhaps thousands of Britannian soldiers were also killing Japanese people at the Fuji Stadium Massacre and possibly in other massacres started by Euphemia's broadcast and the fastest way to get the soldiers to stop was to capture Euphemia and use her as a hostage to get them to stop. By killing Euphemia instead of using her as a hostage Lelouch might have let thousands of Japanese die.

    And Lelouch's totally unnecessary plan to get even more Japanese support than he got by rescuing the survivors of the massacre by killing Euphemia (and thus letting more Japanese die in the massacre) made it impossible for his bigger plan of the Black Rebellion to succeed, as I have pointed out in several posts where I prove that Lelouch needed a live Euphemia for his plans to work and killed her anyway.
    That would then depend on the ethics of the person you are referring to. If, as mentioned, you had low levels of moral ethics (by your own level, I sure don't see a whole lot of people lining up to protest) you wouldn't mind.

    I say that in that particular massacre, it was an accident. (Fine, a planned accident by the sunrise producers if you want to go down that road.) Can you prove that Lelouch was trying to gain something During said massacre?

    ...It is considered so.

    Euphemia started shooting first. Then she ordered the soldiers to start killing. They, of course have no choice but to obey and say, "Yes, your Highness," and carry out orders unquestionably. It does not help if Euphemia was captured. The country would see her struggling to escape. And most likely she would run from Lelouch in the first place, and his stamina is worse than hers...I digress.

    Oh We Do Seem To Forget that Lelouch is human, and that humans err. His plans aren't always perfect. And how do you expect him to think straight when a crazed Euphemia is running around shooting japanese, with her troops?

    So he took the simple solution of killing her.



    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    As I wrote above, I proved in several posts months ago that Lelouch needed a live Euphemia for his bigger plan of the Black Rebellion to succeed and killed her anyway.

    And from an ethical standpoint there is no debate. Killing someone as easy to capture as Euphemia was is always murder.
    He needed to kill her. It was a last-ditch attempt. And oh, the plot, the plot.

    Ohhhhhh are we talking mecha ethics here? Because the rules always bend according to the situation, my dear. Even in real life.

    The human psyche is a complicated thing.
    Last edited by Rei; 03-11-2010 at 07:05 PM.
    ---
    MEMENTO MORI,
    IF THE NINETH LION ATE THE SUN.



  22. #247
    Cardinal of Eden Vital Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Ahh yes, there he is. I see (: So Much Better than Rolo of the anime, though he was necessary there. I really should get to the NoN manga series then.
    You should, it's a good series. Rolo is better mostly in looks on the manga. I liked him the moment he came on, filled my psycho thirst

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Yeah, Lelouch as empress would be *disturbing*
    Yes, that would be disturbing. He does make a perfect girl though, ever seen Luluko?
    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    but in the end the manga does vary widely from the anime, so everything's justifiable. The drawing styles for the various manga are all different though.
    I enjoyed Nightmare of Nunnally but couldn't get into Suzaku of the Counterattack, probably because the Suzaku one cut of the Knightmares. I mean, come on! Suzaku is a great pilot, but let's cut out the mechas.
    NoN's art starts off iffy, but it gets better as it goes on.


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  23. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    You should, it's a good series. Rolo is better mostly in looks on the manga. I liked him the moment he came on, filled my psycho thirst
    Haha I bet it did. He looks as psychotic as Lelouch.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Yes, that would be disturbing. He does make a perfect girl though, ever seen Luluko?
    Yeah I have...ever seen Zero switch roles with Izumi Konata? Lol-ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    I enjoyed Nightmare of Nunnally but couldn't get into Suzaku of the Counterattack, probably because the Suzaku one cut of the Knightmares. I mean, come on! Suzaku is a great pilot, but let's cut out the mechas.
    NoN's art starts off iffy, but it gets better as it goes on.

    Somehow I haven't really been feeling confident about the manga, maybe because the anime's so good. Plus the code geass manga which is -supposed- to illustrate the original plotline, the characters look short and pudgy...
    ---
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    IF THE NINETH LION ATE THE SUN.



  24. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Haha I bet it did. He looks as psychotic as Lelouch.
    Oh he is so much worse.




    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Yeah I have...ever seen Zero switch roles with Izumi Konata? Lol-ed.
    No, I haven't.



    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Somehow I haven't really been feeling confident about the manga, maybe because the anime's so good. Plus the code geass manga which is -supposed- to illustrate the original plotline, the characters look short and pudgy...
    I hate that one. NoN was cool because it was very AU. All the others were... kind of awful....


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  25. #250
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    Still cutting your posts to the minimum. There may be a point where I might post a teal deer just for the heck of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    It failed twice because an evil schemer twice interfered with it to further his plans for violence and destruction.
    Yeah, it still failed; I couldn't care less HOW it happened. Point is, it failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    A naive girl who will become more experienced and competent is of more use than thousands of competent but already evil persons.
    How will she become "more experienced and competent" if she is dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I kept making excuses for the evil that Lelouch the protagonist did, just as his defenders still keep making excuses for murdering Euphie or the geass directorate massacre.
    And who's fault is that? You made excuses for Lelouch, so that's your fault. If you ONLY got mad at him because he killed Euphemia (which he had a a reason for doing so) and didn't get mad before when killed a bunch of Britannian soldiers (which he had absolutely NO reason for doing so), then your morals are seriously skewed and that's a problem you need to work out on your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Why do you reply to my ethical questions with discussions of the alleged practical value of killing Euphemia, as if that has anything to to with the case?
    Because that is the point of this thread, is it not? To discuss Euphemia's "murder"? My point there, as it always has been, is that Lelouch didn't kill Euphemia out of malice. He killed her to get the best out of a bad situation and to get her to STOP KILLING PEOPLE. Because of this, Euphemia's death doesn't count as murder (manslaughter at best).

    You asked how could a good and rational person could kill Euphemia. I said that a person could if they had the same reasons as Lelouch.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I say that in a situation like the massacre it is evil and wrong to think about political or military gain for your cause.
    Except you keep saying that Lelouch should have captured Euphemia in order to push his political cause. Haven't you been saying that Lelouch should have captured Euphemia and used her as a political ploy against Britannia? Are you saying that Lelouch should have just let the massacre continue or capture Euphemia and do nothing with her?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    By killing Euphemia instead of using her as a hostage Lelouch might have let thousands of Japanese die.
    The name of the event is the "Special Administrative Zone Massacre". If it sounds like I am nit-picking, its because I am (I don't respect you nearly enough not to).

    The key words are "perhaps" and "might" in your assumption (and again, you can't use an unproven and unsupported assumption as proof of your point; that's a logical fallacy). The Britannian soldiers may have been killing people but SO WAS EUPHEMIA! Their participation in it doesn't change Euphemia's participation in it. And unless you can prove to me, using the show, that massacres happened in other parts of Japan because of Euphemia (considering that the Black Knights and the Japanese were rallying immediately after Euphemia's death), your point is moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And Lelouch's totally unnecessary plan to get even more Japanese support than he got by rescuing the survivors of the massacre by killing Euphemia (and thus letting more Japanese die in the massacre) made it impossible for his bigger plan of the Black Rebellion to succeed, as I have pointed out in several posts where I prove that Lelouch needed a live Euphemia for his plans to work and killed her anyway.
    AGAIN, he got the Japanese's support by killing Euphemia. This is something that CANNOT be argued because he succeeded in getting their support. Or did you not see all of Euphemia's death when the Japanese were rallying? Or immediately after that when resistance groups started to merge into one huge force to fight Britannia with the Black Knights?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    As I wrote above, I proved in several posts months ago that Lelouch needed a live Euphemia for his bigger plan of the Black Rebellion to succeed and killed her anyway.
    You didn't "prove" anything. Again, in order to win an argument, you need to have a sound argument with a valid premises and a valid conclusion (along with the people arguing with you to concede to your point). Simply stating your side doesn't prove a damn thing unless you have true and valid to back it up.

    Your "proof" relies on a logical fallacy called "affirming the consequent" or "converse error". It goes "If A, then B; B; Therefore A". Yours goes like this:

    Lelouch killed Euphemia
    The Black Rebellion failed
    Therefore, Lelouch killing Euphemia caused the Black Rebellion to fail

    While Lelouch killing Euphemia is true and the failure of the Black Rebellion is true, this doesn't mean that they are connected to each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And from an ethical standpoint there is no debate. Killing someone as easy to capture as Euphemia was is always murder.
    Well, your definition of murder is quite different from the legal definition, which is really the only one that matters (some think that abortion is murder; that doesn't mean that it is).

    I am not really debating the ethics of Euphemia's death. Like I said before, I am merely explaining WHY Lelouch did what he did; I didn't say that I approved or disapproved of what he did. I mean, for me, I already KNEW that Euphemia was going to die (again, her name made it more than obvious for me), so I really (no offense to Euphemia fans) didn't care about her death; I knew it was coming. I can understand WHY someone (including you) would be shocked about her death. However, whining about after all this time only shows that you are crazy. Very, very crazy.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

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