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Thread: *SPOILERS* The shot that killed My Love for Anime

  1. #76
    #1Innovator xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Read my expanded post anyway, please.
    Okay. I read it. However fighting about things like this is utterly pointless. Everyone has their own opinions. In mine, you can't achieve permanent peace without violence.
    But as a Euphemia fan, I can say that her death was unfair and Lelouch lost some cool points for being so reckless. I would have thought that a perfect strategist would have been able to see more clearly that the emperor wouldn't have allowed the zone, or the Britannians would have rebelled, thus trying to stop the SAZ was pointless in itself. It was just another twist to get Suzaku to hate Lelouch.
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  2. #77
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Okay. I read it. However fighting about things like this is utterly pointless. Everyone has their own opinions. In mine, you can't achieve permanent peace without violence.
    But as a Euphemia fan, I can say that her death was unfair and Lelouch lost some cool points for being so reckless. I would have thought that a perfect strategist would have been able to see more clearly that the emperor wouldn't have allowed the zone, or the Britannians would have rebelled, thus trying to stop the SAZ was pointless in itself. It was just another twist to get Suzaku to hate Lelouch.
    Well, if you are an Euphemia fan perhaps you would be willing to read my post # 62 above sometime and see how much of it you agree with.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 01-19-2010 at 10:13 PM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Well, if you are an Euphemia fan perhaps you would be willing to read my post # 62 above sometime and see how much of it you agree with.
    Sure. I will later. I don't have time now, but I'll edit my post when finished.
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  4. #79
    Junior Member Lord Teapot is on a distinguished road Lord Teapot's Avatar
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    I cant believe how stupid this topic is. I apolagise but do you realy not understand the significance opf this crucial segment of the story? Up until now the geass has only been an asset. It has never been dangerous to Lelouch himself. However it grows stronger and he has less controll over it resulting in the murder of countless civilian Japanese. Lelouch realizes it is his fault and takes responsibility. He kills Euphemia. Thus ending the masacar. He does the right thing in this situation. To allow the murder to continue would be far worse. After unintentionaly using his geass on Euphemia, if he had just walked away and let her kill all those Japanese, it would have been nothing more than killing him with his own hands. He obviously has feelings for Euphemia, so when he shoots her, it in effect is Lelouch casting aside his personal emotions and doing what is simply right.

    However this is still a result of his carelessnes, and in the end after bringing the world to its knees, and throwing his honorable name in the mud, he sets up his own death so that the world can become peacefull. His true requiem is that his good intentions are forgotten and his name is eternaly that of a devil even after death. To be honest I thought the death Euphemia was the real motive being his sacrifice. In killing her he casts away his right to humanity and thus dies not as a man but as a concept. A figure whom countless many detest.

    Euphemia died for a reason. If Lelouch had not killed her his human side may have prevented him from sacrificing himself in the end.

    Or are you just confused about the whole thing? In the sub it was obviously an accidental command, but I've never seen the dub version so maybie you just got your facts wrong :/
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  5. #80
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Teapot View Post
    I cant believe how stupid this topic is.
    I can't believe how stupid your reply is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Teapot View Post
    I apolagise but do you realy not understand the significance opf this crucial segment of the story?
    I apologize, but do you really not understand the significance of this crucial segment of the story?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Teapot View Post
    Up until now the geass has only been an asset. It has never been dangerous to Lelouch himself. However it grows stronger and he has less controll over it resulting in the murder of countless civilian Japanese. Lelouch realizes it is his fault and takes responsibility. He kills Euphemia. Thus ending the masacar. He does the right thing in this situation. To allow the murder to continue would be far worse. After unintentionaly using his geass on Euphemia, if he had just walked away and let her kill all those Japanese, it would have been nothing more than killing him with his own hands. He obviously has feelings for Euphemia, so when he shoots her, it in effect is Lelouch casting aside his personal emotions and doing what is simply right.
    Why do you say that Lelouch ended the massacre by killing Euphemia? There is no evidence about the effect of shooting Euphemia on the possible duration of the massacre, so claiming that Lelouch ended the massacre by shooting Euphemia is pure speculation on your part. It is perfectly possible that tens, or hundreds, or thousands, of Japanese victims of the Fuji Massacre were killed after Lelouch shot Euphemia, and thus after the time that he could have captured her and tried to use her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

    And remember that at the beginning of episode 23 Euphemia broadcast an order to massacre Japanese people. If it was received by Britannian soldiers who were not at the Fuji Stadium, they would have started other massacres beside the Fuji Stadium massacre. The best and fastest way for Lelouch to stop those other massacres was to capture Euphemia and broadcast a demand that the Britannians stop massacring in order to save Euphemia.

    If Lelouch just shot Euphemia and walked away, and let the other Britannians continued to slaughter Japanese victims until those Britannians were slowly defeated one by one, it would have been nothing more than killing them with his own hands. Lelouch did just shoot Euphemia and walk away, so if even one Japanese person was killed who would have been saved if Lelouch had used Euphemia as a hostage to stop the massacre as soon as possible Lelouch was guilty of murdering that Japanese person.

    Lelouch did the wrong thing in this situation. You assume he has only two choices, to just let Euphemia continue to massacre or to stop her by killing her. Obviously you have not ready many of my posts in this or other threads. Lelouch had a third choice, he could have stopped Euphemia by capturing her alive.

    It would have been really safe and easy for Lelouch to capture Euphemia right after she crawled unarmed out from the wreckage of her nightmare. He could have picked her up in one of the four giant robot hands of his two nightmares, leaving three hands to fight with - and a princess hostage in the hand is worth two cannons anyway.

    And then after Lelouch inexplicably let Euphie pick up and keep a machine gun he got out of the safety of his armored vehicle and walked up to her, confident she loved and trusted him and wouldn't shoot him. It would have been really safe and easy for him to have captured her alive in such a situation. For example, he could have suddenly shot her with the stun gun he should have kept in the cockpit of his nightmare to capture Suzaku if Suzaku was forced to eject from his nightmare.

    When I saw how easy it would have been for Lelouch to capture Euphemia alive I saw that he had no good or decent reason to kill her instead of capturing her, and thus killing her was an evil murder. It can never be right to kill anyone who would be as easy to capture alive as Euphemia wold have been.

    When Lelouch shot Euphemia he did what was simply wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Teapot View Post
    However this is still a result of his carelessnes, and in the end after bringing the world to its knees, and throwing his honorable name in the mud, he sets up his own death so that the world can become peacefull. His true requiem is that his good intentions are forgotten and his name is eternaly that of a devil even after death. To be honest I thought the death Euphemia was the real motive being his sacrifice. In killing her he casts away his right to humanity and thus dies not as a man but as a concept. A figure whom countless many detest.
    This is not only a result of Lelouch's carelessness. It is also a result of his evil plan to turn the opening of the SAZ into a bloodbath and the start of his revolution as he told Euphemia in Episode 22. Telling Euphemia about his evil plan later led to his accidentally giving her the geass command to kill the Japanese.

    Suppose that a man, Hcuolel, climbs up a mountain above his neighbor's house planning to start an avalanche to kill his neighbor and his wife who is visiting him, since he suspects that they are having an affair. Hcuolel finds himself reluctant to start the avalanche so he listens on his radio to the bug he planted in his neighbor's house, hoping to hear them making out.

    But instead he hears them discussing some innocent surprise they have prepared for him. Hcuolel is overcome with joy that he has no reason to kill them and dances a dance of joy, and slips. Hcuolel grabs hold of a bush and saves himself, but a few stones he dislodges start and avalanche which sweeps away his neighbor's house and wipes out his village in the valley below.

    Hcuolel is guilty of murdering his wife and neighbor and all the villagers because accidentally starting the avalanche was a direct result of his earlier criminal plan to murder his wife and neighbor. Just as Lelouch was guilty of murdering everyone killed in the Fuji Massacre and the Black Rebellion because his geass command to Euphemia was a direct result of his evil criminal plans to trick thousands of people into dying for his cause.

    You are wrong that Lelouch totally lost his reputation and became hated forever. He had a loophole. He had two identities -- Lelouch and Zero. Since it was not widely known that Lelouch and the original Zero were the same person, everyone who knew that the Evil Emperor Lelouch had been killed by Zero would assume there was only one Zero. Thus Lelouch's name was blackened with all the hatred earned by the crimes of the evil Emperor Lelouch, but Lelouch's alter ego of Zero unjustly received all the credit and none of the blame from Lelouch's career, even though the original Zero was just as evil as the evil Emperor Lelouch and was guilty of murdering Euphemia and ordering the geass directorate massacre.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Teapot View Post
    Euphemia died for a reason. If Lelouch had not killed her his human side may have prevented him from sacrificing himself in the end.
    Yes, Euphie died for a reason.

    The millions of Jews who died in the holocaust died for a reason -- the crazy Nazi theory that they were evil demons in human form who had to be totally exterminated to save the real human beings from total destruction.. Hundreds of thousands of "witches" who were executed died for a reason -- the wacky theories of the witch hunters about a gigantic, monstrously evil, witchcraft heresy and conspiracy.

    I cannot believe that Lelouch had any better reason for killing Euphie than Nazis or witch hunters had.

    Oh, you mean there was a plot reason for killing Euphemia. But no sensible writer will have someone commit a terrible, senseless, unmotivated murder for plot reasons. Lelouch already had enough to be guilty about --killing Clovis while Clovis begged and pleaded for mercy, murdering the leaders of the JLF, etc. and was going to have a lot more when he ordered the geass directorate massacre (and for some strange reason none of the Black Knights killed him to stop it).

    Lelouch's sacrifice of his life could only be a sufficient atonement if he had merely senselessly and needlessly killed only one person. With so many victims, dying only once in atonement made it seem as though Lelouch's life was worth as much as all those of his thousands of victims together and really cheapened each individual death.

    And of course Lelouch's death let him to escape from the relatively boring and mundane tasks necessary to build a better world. A better ending would be a reformed Lelouch and a surviving Euphemia (aided by Suzaku, who on his own was not enough to make a sufficient antagonist and opposite viewpoint to Lelouch) bravely and resignedly shouldering the immense burdens of peacefully rebuilding the world now that the fighting was over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Teapot View Post
    Or are you just confused about the whole thing? In the sub it was obviously an accidental command, but I've never seen the dub version so maybie you just got your facts wrong :/
    Yes I know giving Euphemia the geass command was an accident. But that accident was a direct result of Lelouch's earlier evil plan to give Euphie a geass command which would start a bloody revolution. So even if it was necessary to kill Euphemia to stop her, Lelouch would still be guilty of murdering her. And as I wrote above, there was absolutely no need to kill Euphie to stop her. Thus killing her was doubly murder.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 01-23-2010 at 11:04 PM.

  6. #81
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    THE POINT proEuphie is that, while Euphemia's death was a shocking one (no one really disagrees with you on this part), she is still dead. There is not much to discuss when it comes to her death. Lelouch accidentally used the Geass on Euphemia. Euphemia goes around killing people. Lelouch kills Euphemia in order to perserve his orginal plan of using the anger of the Japanese people in order to further fuel his rebellion (this may sound cruel, but although Lelouch's killing of Euphemia stopped the massacre, that's not the reason why he killed her). That's basically it.

    Are there other choices that Lelouch could have used? Yes. Would these other choices have worked? Who knows; its pure speculation. He COULD have saved her. He COULD have used her as a hostage. He COULD have done a lot of things. However, none of these things ultimately change the fact that Euphemia DIED and (in the anime) remains DEAD. If you want to keep focusing om these things instead of letting go of what happened then,...oh whatever, its your life and your thread; you do whatever you want (even if you are wasting both).

    I mean, there are two seperate Code Geass mangas that I have told you about in which Euphemia is STILL ALIVE, in yet you choose to ignore these (Is seeing her alive in the anime the only thing that matters?) and focus on her death in the anime which, as I have pointed out to you, was a predictable action on Bandai's part and really not all that surprising to those that have watched Bandai anime for years and know what to expect from them (HELLO?! The Great Martyr Euphemia? Yeah, that was no coincidence) and really not all that shocking to those who have seen much, MUCH worse in other anime.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 01-21-2010 at 12:09 AM.
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  7. #82
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    Are these people (proEuphie) typing up all of these repetitive responses or are they copypasting?

    I mean, seriously, wtf.

    I think proEuphie wants to take Euphie's death to a real court or something.
    On this day of days, most epic and prideful, you were born 15 whole American years ago!
    Through the odds and by doing the impossible, you beat out hundreds of thousands of siblings in the great sperm race for the coveted egg.
    Probably via hax.
    Regardless! You won!
    So remember, whenever someone picks on you or calls you weak or small.
    Just remind them that you beat out a few hundred thousand other wimps.

    And the grand prize was not dying!

  8. #83
    Junior Member Lord Teapot is on a distinguished road Lord Teapot's Avatar
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    proEupie, I apreciate the majority of your reply but, I resent your childish correction of my grammer as perfect english is not what we are disscussing right now, and such a thing is petty. Your arguement involving her as a hostage was interesting, I admit that I did not read all the previous posts and that I had not considered it. However that struck a chord with me. You will notice that Lelouch has an ardent disgust towards people being used as "political tools", normaly he takes advantage anyway, however his love for Euphie interferes with his judgement, causing him to react emontionaly, rather than rationaly. He realizes that he can stop the masacar by using her as a "political tool" or hostage, but due to his feelings he feels that death would at least leave her with what little honor she had left. This is obviously "wrong" from utilitarian ethics and kantian ethics perspective, however thinking rationaly or only of the there afters, casts aside humanity, and in a way as I said before, responsibility. Im sorry I didnt go into apt detail before but Im saying it now. I may have forgotten a detail so if you still have contradictions then please say so. Im not trying to start a fight you know
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  9. #84
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Teapot View Post
    proEupie, I apreciate the majority of your reply but, I resent your childish correction of my grammer as perfect english is not what we are disscussing right now, and such a thing is petty.
    I didn't correct my echoes of your phrases to show off better grammer (how is that supposed to be spelled?) or spelling but because it is habitual with me by now. Since I may want to copy my arguments and use them elsewhere I might as well correct them as well as I can the first time around.

    And wolfgirl90 once criticized my many spelling mistakes so that has made me more sensitive to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Teapot View Post
    Your arguement involving her as a hostage was interesting, I admit that I did not read all the previous posts and that I had not considered it. However that struck a chord with me. You will notice that Lelouch has an ardent disgust towards people being used as "political tools", normaly he takes advantage anyway, however his love for Euphie interferes with his judgement, causing him to react emontionaly, rather than rationaly. He realizes that he can stop the masacar by using her as a "political tool" or hostage, but due to his feelings he feels that death would at least leave her with what little honor she had left. This is obviously "wrong" from utilitarian ethics and kantian ethics perspective, however thinking rationaly or only of the there afters, casts aside humanity, and in a way as I said before, responsibility. Im sorry I didnt go into apt detail before but Im saying it now. I may have forgotten a detail so if you still have contradictions then please say so. Im not trying to start a fight you know
    I don't understand what is so terrible about being used as political tool, especially when it saves your life. And how could using Euphie as a hostage take away her honor? Only one's own actions can take away one's true honor. And if Britannian soldiers stopped their terrible massacre because of their love and respect for Euphemia and/or her position as a princess, wouldn't that restore a tiny little bit of her external honor in the eyes of the world?

    If Lelouch valued Euphemia's reputation in the eyes of the world, why didn't he do something that would help restore it as much as possible as soon as possible? By ordering his men to capture her to use her as a hostage to stop the massacre, telling them that she was not guilty because of insanity or mind control.

    And making the speech at the stadium later he would say that Euphemia was the only Britannian leader who had ever wanted to be kind to the Japanese and other numbers and now she had gone insane from the strain of doing good when all the other Britannians wanted her to do evil, or as a result of mind control by evil Britannians who hated to see Elevens being happy.

    He could say that the Britannian soldiers who obeyed her orders to massacre must have suspected the obvious fact that Euphemia was not in her right mind when she gave orders so contrary to everything she had done before, but were so happy for a chance to massacre Japanese that they didn't care.

    He could say the Japanese could wait for months or years or decades for Euphemia to be cured, or until Britannia by some miracle produced another Euphemia, another leader who wanted to be good to the Japanese, enduring massacre after massacre ordered by Britannian leaders with the full obedience of their soldiers. Or else they could revolt now and drive the Britannians out of Japan.

    I think that would have preserved Euphie's honor in the eyes of the world better than killing her and calling her evil.

    I think that you should have added to you statement about Lelouch's reason for killing Euphie the statement that if Lelouch thought that he was doing Euphemia a favor by killing her he was clearly unable to think clearly about what was good for people, and so had no right to try to change the course of events.

    If Lelouch thought that he was somehow protecting Euphie by killing her then my statement in post # 80 certainly seems correct:

    Yes, Euphie died for a reason.

    The millions of Jews who died in the holocaust died for a reason -- the crazy Nazi theory that they were evil demons in human form who had to be totally exterminated to save the real human beings from total destruction.. Hundreds of thousands of "witches" who were executed died for a reason -- the wacky theories of the witch hunters about a gigantic, monstrously evil, witchcraft heresy and conspiracy.

    I cannot believe that Lelouch had any better reason for killing Euphie than Nazis or witch hunters had.


    And if Lelouch loved Euphemia but not enough to keep him from killing her for some imagined and doubtful political gain, my comparison of Lelouch to "Loath-ar" I and "Loath-ar " II in post # 64 is correct.

    By the way, Wolfgirl90 in her post # states that Lelouch killed Euphie for a completely different reason.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 01-23-2010 at 11:02 PM.

  10. #85
    #1Innovator xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX's Avatar
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    Okay. I'll clarify my own opinion on the matter. It wasn't Euphy dying, the massacre, or anything else that made Lelouch evil.(or at least corrupt) It was the very act of using Geass(I agree with Suzaku on that). I understand that it was the only way he could be Zero, and I understand his logic, but he overused the power a point where Euphy's death was only an element in the plot for a few reasons.
    1. To make Suzaku and Lelouch enemies. Which is rather pointless considering
     
    They team up at the end regardless

    2. To make Lelouch realize his power wasn't perfect and neither was he.
    3. To make a sad plot twist. It's the same reason my favorite character it Gundam 00 died. To make you shocked and sad. I can admit, I liked Euphy alot more than
     
    Lockon
    But it's the same.
    I rewatched the episode, and proEuphie is right, Lelouch could have easily captured Euphy, but I didn't even think of that until the second or third time I watched it. That thought didn't even really cross my mind. I have a feeling it was the same for Lelouch. Although I know he did regret killing her.
    On episode 8 of R2, he puts that candle with her name in it on the water and says, "There's nothing holding me here(Japan) anymore." I really liked that seen considering I always loved Euphy and Lelouch's weird brother/sister(not incest) relationship.
    Another was on episode 6 when Nunnally asks him to help her with the special zone she created and reaches for him, and he remembers Euphy and won't go near her.

    By the way, I'll read your post proEuphie, but I can't figure out which one you wanted me to save the life of me.
    Last edited by xXPainful SmilexX; 01-22-2010 at 06:13 PM.
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I don't understand what is so terrible about being used as political tool, especially when it saves your life. And how could using Euphie as a hostage take away her honor? Only one's own actions can take away one's true honor. And if Britannian soldiers stopped their terrible massacre because of their love and respect for Euphemia and/or her position as a princess, wouldn't that restore a tiny little bit of her external honor in the eyes of the world?
    Its not my opinion. Its Lelouch's opinion. In the subbed version at least when things get tough the first thing that comes to Lelouch is that if he fails then his sister will become a political tool. Throughout the series he shows great resentment towards it even when using people in such a way himself. He is a hypocrit. However he is not evil or twisted or whatever. He knew the geass would never cease and that if he captured her and she somehow escaped or was taken back by force then she would be a danger again. Combined with his personal moral objections to using individuals as tools in politics, he decided he should end what he started.

    Capturing her was essentialy only a temporary solution.
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    Yes, Euphie died for a reason.

    The millions of Jews who died in the holocaust died for a reason -- the crazy Nazi theory that they were evil demons in human form who had to be totally exterminated to save the real human beings from total destruction.. Hundreds of thousands of "witches" who were executed died for a reason -- the wacky theories of the witch hunters about a gigantic, monstrously evil, witchcraft heresy and conspiracy.

    I cannot believe that Lelouch had any better reason for killing Euphie than Nazis or witch hunters had.
    I can accept many things, like hardcore anime fans and people who support a cause. But there's a limit.

    Euphemia is a fictional character in a fictional show with other fictional characters with a fictional plot with no strong correlation to real life, even if some events could be linked to real life events after, like, a five-tear separation.

    Euphemia didn't really die because she can't die because she isn't real because she was never real.

    You can like anything you want to. But never ever ever compare the death of a fictional character to the deaths of millions of real, innocent lives. People who died because of their race, a disability, sexual orientation, religion or pure speculation.

    Comparing the death of one person to millions of deaths is ridiculous enough, but when that death is fictional, that's a disgusting abuse of comparisons.
    On this day of days, most epic and prideful, you were born 15 whole American years ago!
    Through the odds and by doing the impossible, you beat out hundreds of thousands of siblings in the great sperm race for the coveted egg.
    Probably via hax.
    Regardless! You won!
    So remember, whenever someone picks on you or calls you weak or small.
    Just remind them that you beat out a few hundred thousand other wimps.

    And the grand prize was not dying!

  13. #88
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And wolfgirl90 once criticized my many spelling mistakes so that has made me more sensitive to them.
    Please. I am not the only one who has criticized your spelling (you being more sensitive to spelling mistakes has apparently not made the correction of yours any better). If you want to make sure that your spelling and grammar (by the way, that is how you spell "grammar") are correct, then you look it up and correct YOURSELF than correct others. Correcting the spelling and grammar of others does not help your own. In fact, that makes people nitpick on your own (you have plenty of experience with that). But lets move on...

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    If Lelouch valued Euphemia's reputation in the eyes of the world, why didn't he do something that would help restore it as much as possible as soon as possible? By ordering his men to capture her to use her as a hostage to stop the massacre, telling them that she was not guilty because of insanity or mind control.
    Umm...being used as a hostage does not do a lot to restore "honor" (Euphemia would need much, much more than a hostage situation to restore her severely tarnished name), especially if you have already done something bad. Lelouch could have said that Euphemia was innocent, that the massacre was not her fault, but that would immediately call into question as to who's fault it was and prove of such (Euphemia was already quite guilty; its hard to deny guilt for someone covered in blood, holding a gun and had hundreds of people witness them running around shooting people left, right and center). The only other option would be for Lelouch to reveal his Geass...which of course would piss off the Japanese. Yeah, not a good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And making the speech at the stadium later he would say that Euphemia was the only Britannian leader who had ever wanted to be kind to the Japanese and other numbers and now she had gone insane from the strain of doing good when all the other Britannians wanted her to do evil, or as a result of mind control by evil Britannians who hated to see Elevens being happy.
    Which would be okay if that made sense. However, considering that this was really the only majorly good act that Euphemia had ever done versus the multitude of "evil" the Britanians had done (she seemed to be putting up with it for the longest time; its not like she wasn't of a high enough rank to do something before), its hard to believe that she lapsed into insanity at the very moment when all of her great efforts were to come to fruition. If the SAZ failed, then the stress would be (more) understandable.

    That also brings up another problem: in this example, Lelouch is not even responsible for Euphemia's actions; she basically did this on her own, albeit during a fit of insanity. Now, I do not know what you think happens to people who claim to be insane, but that defense is barely used and hardly works. And contrary to popualr belief, those whose insanity pleas are successful are sent to mental institutions where they undergo intense psychotherapy until doctors belief they fit to rejoin society. Not when they are better, but when the doctors BELIEVE the criminal is fit to rejoin society. Because of this, "insane" criminals usually wind up serving double the time they would have gotten had they gone to prison.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    He could say that the Britannian soldiers who obeyed her orders to massacre must have suspected the obvious fact that Euphemia was not in her right mind when she gave orders so contrary to everything she had done before, but were so happy for a chance to massacre Japanese that they didn't care.
    That maybe very true although 1) The penalty for insubordination is extremely severe in the Britannian army; they would have followed her whether this was her normal behavior or not (we have seen Britannian soldiers accept orders for massacres before; just Euphemia gave it does not change a thing) and 2) that does not change the fact that the soldiers would not have attacked in THE FIRST PLACE if the order had not come from a certain someone: Euphemia.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Or else they could revolt now and drive the Britannians out of Japan.
    You mean...with violence...that thing you said wasn't necessary to bring peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I think that would have preserved Euphie's honor in the eyes of the world better than killing her and calling her evil.
    Yeah right, it made the soldiers look evil and Euphemia crazy evil. Oh, she couldn't scream into a pillow, knock over some things or squeeze a ball? Her response to stress was to run out and kil a few hundred folks personally while ordering soldiers to do the rest? Yeah, I would classify that as "crazy evil".

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    By the way, Wolfgirl90 in her post # states that Lelouch killed Euphie for a completely different reason.
    Yes I did (I have said this reason many times), though even you have a hard time accepting this fact.

    As I have said, Lelouch did not kill Euphemia to end her pain or to stop the massacre. He killed her because it was the best way to utilize the anger and rage of the Japanese to his advantage. If he simply captured her and used her as a bargaining chip, then the Japanese would be even more angry and now angry at him. Why would he even try to work with the Britannians considering the fact they are responsible for the deaths of thousands of Japanese? That would be a spit in the face to the Japanese people.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    As I have said, Lelouch did not kill Euphemia to end her pain or to stop the massacre. He killed her because it was the best way to utilize the anger and rage of the Japanese to his advantage. If he simply captured her and used her as a bargaining chip, then the Japanese would be even more angry and now angry at him. Why would he even try to work with the Britannians considering the fact they are responsible for the deaths of thousands of Japanese? That would be a spit in the face to the Japanese people.
    I agreed with, I think all your post other than this. For one thing this is obviously NOT his motive. If this was the most advantagous action then it would be meaninlgess plot-wise to have an accidental command. Also from his emotional response after killing her, I have to continue thinking along the lines that this was a murder based on the opinion that death would be better than being used by others for the rest of your life as a political tool.
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  15. #90
    Senior Member The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher's Avatar
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    I'm kind of glad Euphemia died.

    One less character close to Lelouch=more heartless Lelouch.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Butcher View Post
    I'm kind of glad Euphemia died.

    One less character close to Lelouch=more heartless Lelouch.
    Why in the world would you want that?
    " I am death and sorrow." -Acheron



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  17. #92
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Please. I am not the only one who has criticized your spelling (you being more sensitive to spelling mistakes has apparently not made the correction of yours any better). If you want to make sure that your spelling and grammar (by the way, that is how you spell "grammar") are correct, then you look it up and correct YOURSELF than correct others. Correcting the spelling and grammar of others does not help your own. In fact, that makes people nitpick on your own (you have plenty of experience with that). But lets move on...
    You should be more observant. I did not correct the spelling of Lord Teapot's post # 79. I copied two of his phrases and rewrote them in my post # 80 and in the process I corrected the spelling of two of his words to what I hoped was the correct spelling. But only in my echoes of his phrases and not in his phrases cut and pasted from his post # 79.

    In his post # 83 Lord Teapot accused me of correcting his spelling but what he actually meant was that I copied phrases from his post # 79 into my post # 80 and left his spelling errors intact and them responded to those phrases with very similar phrases but with the spelling of two worlds corrected. Thus people who care can notice that we spelled those words differently, and Lord Teapot claimed that I did that to point out his spelling errors.

    I responded to that in my post # 84, which you responded to in your post # 88 with the paragraph quoted above.

    I just thought that maybe you and/or Lord teapot might have used "corrected" with a different meaning than I do. I use corrected to mean having fixed or made right an error, like going back and retyping a misspelled or misused word. But perhaps you and/or Lord Teapot use the word "corrected" to mean "having told someone that he made an error".

    I would never used "corrected" to mean informing someone that he made an error, unless there is still time to change the error before it is permanent and so make it not happen. Once the error has happened and cannot be changed informing a person that he made an error does not correct that error.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 01-23-2010 at 09:47 PM.

  18. #93
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Why in the world would you want that?
    I suppose that his user name might explain that.

  19. #94
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Teapot View Post
    I agreed with, I think all your post other than this. For one thing this is obviously NOT his motive. If this was the most advantagous action then it would be meaninlgess plot-wise to have an accidental command. Also from his emotional response after killing her, I have to continue thinking along the lines that this was a murder based on the opinion that death would be better than being used by others for the rest of your life as a political tool.
    I don't think that killing Euphemia was in any way advantageous to Lelouch. But if it was advantageous, or if it was not advantageous but Lelouch falsely thought that that it was, then in a sense accidentally giving Euphie the geass command was a significant plot element.

    It would make the more gullible audience members think that Lelouch was not as evil as they would have thought he was if he had carried out his original plan to trick thousands of Japanese into dying for his revolution and probably killing Euphie.

    They would not realize that if Lelouch would follow such a plan for days and only stop at the last moment when face to face with Euphie, he was far too evil to be worth their interest.

    And the gullible would not realize that Lelouch's evil plan for mass murder which he gave up at the meeting was the direct cause of his giving Euphie the geass command, and so everyone killed in the Fuji Massacre and the Black Rebellion was murdered by Lelouch.

    And it might fool the gullible into not noticing that Lelouch could have captured Euphemia alive just as fast, as easy, and as safely as he killed her, and thus had no good or humane reason to kill her.

    There are only two possibilities about Lelouch's motives for killing Euphie. Either Lelouch thought that Euphemia was better off alive than dead but killed her anyway for some reason, and so was far to evil to be the protagonist of any tv show or have the slightest respect or affection from the audience.

    Or else Lelouch believed Euphemia was better or dead and killed her at least in part for that reason, as you state. In which case he was for too insane to be free and plotting revolutions and should have been locked up in an institution for the criminally insane.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 01-23-2010 at 10:16 PM.

  20. #95
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memento Mori View Post
    I can accept many things, like hardcore anime fans and people who support a cause. But there's a limit.

    Euphemia is a fictional character in a fictional show with other fictional characters with a fictional plot with no strong correlation to real life, even if some events could be linked to real life events after, like, a five-tear separation.

    Euphemia didn't really die because she can't die because she isn't real because she was never real.

    You can like anything you want to. But never ever ever compare the death of a fictional character to the deaths of millions of real, innocent lives. People who died because of their race, a disability, sexual orientation, religion or pure speculation.

    Comparing the death of one person to millions of deaths is ridiculous enough, but when that death is fictional, that's a disgusting abuse of comparisons.
    You need to think more rationally and analytically.

    People can compare anything to anything.

    Take the specific case of comparing the death of a fictional person to the death of a real person. What someone means when writing that the death of fictional character A is 0.98 times as sad and evil as the death of historical character B is that the idea or concept of the death of fictional character A is 0.98 times as sad and evil as the idea or concept of the death of historical character B. If both evens were equallyr eal or fictional then the death of character A would be 0.98 times as sad and evil as the death of character B.

    He does not not mean and cannot mean that the fact or reality of the death of fictional character A is 0.98 times as sad and evil as the fact or reality of the death of historical character B. He cannot mean that, since it is obvious that there is no fact or reality in the death of fictional character A.

    I have thus demonstrated that it is perfectly proper to compare the sadness or evil of the deaths of fictional characters and real historical characters, so long as it is understood that the comparison is between the idea or concept of one death and the idea or concept of another death, and not between the facts or realities of the two deaths.

    But in my post # 80 and 84 I did not even do what you accuse me of doing, comparing a fictional death to a real death or many real deaths. Here is that part:

    Yes, Euphie died for a reason.

    The millions of Jews who died in the holocaust died for a reason -- the crazy Nazi theory that they were evil demons in human form who had to be totally exterminated to save the real human beings from total destruction.. Hundreds of thousands of "witches" who were executed died for a reason -- the wacky theories of the witch hunters about a gigantic, monstrously evil, witchcraft heresy and conspiracy.

    I cannot believe that Lelouch had any better reason for killing Euphie than Nazis or witch hunters had.


    I did not write anything about the relative evilness of Euphemia's death and real deaths, I wrote about the relative evilness and craziness of Lelouch's motive or motives for killing Euphie and the motives of the Nazis and the witch hunters. Surely nobody can object to comparing the relative sanity and evil of the ideas and beliefs of real and fictional characters. The ideas and beliefs of real and fictional characters are equally ideal and non material.

    The next time you want to criticize someone for what they wrote, reread it at least once to find out what they actually wrote.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 01-24-2010 at 12:02 AM.

  21. #96
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    THE POINT proEuphie is that, while Euphemia's death was a shocking one (no one really disagrees with you on this part), she is still dead. There is not much to discuss when it comes to her death. Lelouch accidentally used the Geass on Euphemia. Euphemia goes around killing people. Lelouch kills Euphemia in order to perserve his orginal plan of using the anger of the Japanese people in order to further fuel his rebellion (this may sound cruel, but although Lelouch's killing of Euphemia stopped the massacre, that's not the reason why he killed her). That's basically it.

    Are there other choices that Lelouch could have used? Yes. Would these other choices have worked? Who knows; its pure speculation. He COULD have saved her. He COULD have used her as a hostage. He COULD have done a lot of things. However, none of these things ultimately change the fact that Euphemia DIED and (in the anime) remains DEAD. If you want to keep focusing om these things instead of letting go of what happened then,...oh whatever, its your life and your thread; you do whatever you want (even if you are wasting both).

    I mean, there are two seperate Code Geass mangas that I have told you about in which Euphemia is STILL ALIVE, in yet you choose to ignore these (Is seeing her alive in the anime the only thing that matters?) and focus on her death in the anime which, as I have pointed out to you, was a predictable action on Bandai's part and really not all that surprising to those that have watched Bandai anime for years and know what to expect from them (HELLO?! The Great Martyr Euphemia? Yeah, that was no coincidence) and really not all that shocking to those who have seen much, MUCH worse in other anime.
    You are back.
    I note that your latest previous post in Euphemia's Murder was # 52. You should see my posts # 55 and 62 if you haven't yet.
    I believe that in Mecha Ethics your latest posts are # 14 and 16. i have responded to them with posts # 18, 19, 22, and 23 if you have not yet seen them.
    In Did Euphemia Escape.... your latest post is #204 and I responded to that in post # 209.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 01-24-2010 at 12:01 AM.

  22. #97
    #1Innovator xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I suppose that his user name might explain that.
    Lol. I suppose you're right.
    " I am death and sorrow." -Acheron



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  23. #98
    Senior Member The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher has a reputation beyond repute The Butcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Why in the world would you want that?
    I like my characters with no emotions.

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    #1Innovator xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Butcher View Post
    I like my characters with no emotions.
    Okay... Different strokes I presume....
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You should be more observant. I did not correct the spelling of Lord Teapot's post # 79. I copied two of his phrases and rewrote them in my post # 80 and in the process I corrected the spelling of two of his words to what I hoped was the correct spelling. But only in my echoes of his phrases and not in his phrases cut and pasted from his post # 79.
    You can also be more observant. I never said that you corrected Lord Teapot's spelling, specifically. You said that you were more sensitive to spelling errors because I kept correcting you. However, I am not the only one who has. Doing so causes other to scrutinize your spelling even more. Your "sensitivity" to spelling and grammar errors has not improved yours. Also, I find it rather bold for a person to correct someone's spelling while not even being 100% sure of the correct spelling in the first place. Yeah, that's bold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Teapot View Post
    I agreed with, I think all your post other than this. For one thing this is obviously NOT his motive. If this was the most advantagous action then it would be meaninlgess plot-wise to have an accidental command. Also from his emotional response after killing her, I have to continue thinking along the lines that this was a murder based on the opinion that death would be better than being used by others for the rest of your life as a political tool.
    What others? Used how? Euphemia gave up her possession of a royal rank and name. How else would she be used other than a hostage by Lelouch (by the way, do not take this as critisism; I am merely asking questions)?

    Think about this: Euphemia, along with Britannian soldiers, is killing a bunch of Japanese. Zero comes in to save the Japanese people from Britannia. However, instead of killing the psycho running around and slaughtering their people, he not only goes of his way to make sure that she lives but also negotiates with the enemy. Doesn't sound good, does it? Lelouch's original plan was to be a martyr and utilize the anger of the Japanese to his advantage. Killing Euphemia allowed Lelouch to used the same plan.

    Now, was that the BEST way he could have done it? Was there another way? Maybe. I am merely stating WHY he killed Euphemia (basically to get some use out of the mess he put himself and Euphemia through). He believed it was the best option. Whether or not it actually was can be debated until doomsay.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I have thus demonstrated that it is perfectly proper to compare the sadness or evil of the deaths of fictional characters and real historical characters, so long as it is understood that the comparison is between the idea or concept of one death and the idea or concept of another death, and not between the facts or realities of the two deaths.
    Which is something I understand, however you are not comparing Euphemia's death to the murder of someone's sister or just one person. You are comparing it to THE FREAKING HOLOCAUST, which was the systematic killing of Jews and to the WITCH TRIALS (what Witches refer to as "The Burning Times"), which was the systematic killing of "witches" (hell, most of the people that died were people that didn't even practice Witchcraft). You know, GENOCIDE!! That's pretty immature and just down right disgusting and wrong.

    Can't you see why that is one HUGE jump? It would be one thing if you said that Sarah Good died for a reason and compared her needless death to Euphemia's (not good but still better than what you did), but its another when you use the real-life death of MILLIONS of people and compare that to the fictional death of a CARTOON CHARACTER, who, by the way, is not even dead in two separate mangas, so again, I do not know why you are still angry about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I did not write anything about the relative evilness of Euphemia's death and real deaths, I wrote about the relative evilness and craziness of Lelouch's motive or motives for killing Euphie and the motives of the Nazis and the witch hunters.
    Then you need to correct yourself. You said that "Euphemia died for a reason" and then mention people who died, making a connection between Euphemia and people who ACTUALLY died. How can I make a connection to Lelouch if you didn't mention him? You said "Euphemia" so I thought of "Euphemia". What you SHOULD have done was say that "Lelouch killed Euphemia for a reason" and then mention that "Hitler also killed Jews for a reason" and then go from there. That example is not any better in terms of sensitivity, but at least it shows that you have a simple grasp on story writing (something that you have proven on numerous occasions to know nothing of).

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Surely nobody can object to comparing the relative sanity and evil of the ideas and beliefs of real and fictional characters. The ideas and beliefs of real and fictional characters are equally ideal and non material.
    Which is something I am not wholly against. Its just that when comparing real and fictional ideas and concepts, they need to be equal to each other. I am not saying that real and fiction can never be equal (personally, I don't like mixing the two); I am saying that when comparing the two, the two need to be equal.

    For example, its one thing to compare the needless death of Euphemia (who, once again, is ONLY dead in the anime and accompaning manga; she is alive everywhere else) to the needless death of a real person (ONE real person) but to compare it to the freaking holocaust is taking things much too far. Grow up.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

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