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Thread: *SPOILERS* The shot that killed My Love for Anime

  1. #301
    Cardinal of Eden Vital Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia's Avatar
    Gil
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    Lol, I can't wait for it to fix honestly. Plus I had to post on this thread because there was an odd number of posts. Lol, OCD.

    PS, the code still drives me crazy.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  2. #302
    桜流し
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    Lol. It drove me crazy yesterday, even gave me a headache just reading posts. Now it's bearable since I'm used to it.

    Edit: It's fine, we all (maybe not) feel that way (:


    「そんな顔をしないで。また会えるよ、シンジ君」
    ---

    もう二度と会えないなんて信じられない
    まだ何も伝えてない
    まだ何も伝えてない


    I'm sorry (not) sorry.

  3. #303
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Then phooey on Ace, whoever he is.
    Don't let Ace find out that you said that.

    We don't know our administrators very well, do we?
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  4. #304
    Yama Yamaha! Yama Yamaha! ElectroGypsy has a reputation beyond repute ElectroGypsy has a reputation beyond repute ElectroGypsy has a reputation beyond repute ElectroGypsy has a reputation beyond repute ElectroGypsy has a reputation beyond repute ElectroGypsy has a reputation beyond repute ElectroGypsy has a reputation beyond repute ElectroGypsy has a reputation beyond repute ElectroGypsy has a reputation beyond repute ElectroGypsy has a reputation beyond repute ElectroGypsy has a reputation beyond repute ElectroGypsy's Avatar
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    There comes a time when you have to shoot your dog instead of taking it to the vet. I believe Euphemia was one of those cases. And besides which, the notion of a Geass Canceller wouldn't have been thought of yet. Euphemia was a danger to all Elevens, and thusly had to be killed.
    I am a VULPINE furre. Got a Problem with that? Then leave me ALONE, and stop FLAMING me!
    --
    "What a strange game. The only winning move is NOT to play."--WOPR Computer from the movie Wargames


  5. #305
    #1Innovator xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    How can everyone understand something which is not true?
    That's why no one understands your thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    In order for any series to be good enough to watch it has to be at least a tiny little bit good. It is very difficult for a series to be even a tiny little bit good without likable characters. Likable characters are likable for many different reasons but one requirement that all likable characters have to meet is that they are good enough ethically to be likable.
    PLEASE link me to where you obtained this information.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    In CG the Britannians all see that their armed forces constantly slaughter more people than is necessary and even engage in brutal massacres, and yet none of them is is ever seen trying to do anything to reduce the excessive violence and save lives. Except for Euphemia. She insists on being present at the Battle of Narita and suddenly the Britannians who had just conducted a massacre in "Get Cornelia" behave themselves and are not seen doing anything wrong. And Euphemia refuses to do what she wants to and send the G1 to help her sister for fear it might endanger the lives of civilians.
    For one this, the episode is not called "get Cornelia" And what does this fact you have to bring up all the time have to do with anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Euphemia is the only one on the Britannian side good enough to be likable, with the possible exception of first season Suzaku, who becomes more evil in the second season.
    How does he become evil exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I say that guerrilla war and terrorism are even more evil than conventional warfare that obeys the laws of war, since guerrilla war and terrorism can be conducted with far less resources than conventional war. Thus much smaller groups of people can start and continue conflicts using terrorism and guerrilla warfare, making peace much harder to get and keep. And terrorism that targets civilians is much more evil than conventional war and guerrilla war that only hits military targets and just as evil as using terror against civilians in conventional or guerrilla war.
    So what are you trying to say?


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    There are many characters in CG who have many characteristics of likable characters, but since they are too evil to be good enough to be likable they should not be liked by the viewers.
    That's your opinion. Don't push it on other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Without Euphemia, there are no good enough characters in CG and there is no point in the story without likable characters to be interested in. Euphemia's death made the story worse, bad enough to be pointless.
    Then move on please.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    If the plot twist was the SAZ plan, it might not have ended the series. Inventive writers could have found a way to keep conflict and tension at the same level as in the first season despite a partial end to the Britannian -Japanese conflict, which was only one of the conflicts in the series.
    No, it would have been boring. You can't completely change every thing about a show in the middle.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Examples:

    a) in the second season Lelouch could use his geass to convince Brittannian leaders in Japan to celebrate the pacification by building a giant statue of Emperor Charles at a location Lelouch had chosen because of the old mining tunnels which his followers would dig closer and closer to the surface until small charges of explosives would blast holes into the open for the Black Knights to pour out of when the Emperor came to the dedication ceremony.
    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    In the meantime Lelouch and the Black Knights travel to another Area to start a rebellion there. Suzaku is sent to lead a force to capture and defeat Zero and the Black Knights, fighting many battles, and Euphemia is sent to be Viceroy and remove support for the rebels by making concessions to the natives.
    Why would Euphy be Viceroy? Not to mention. this would be random fights with no plot.
    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Lelouch and the Black knights move to another Area and start rebellion there, and eventually Suzaku and Euphemia are sent there to oppose them. And the numbers begin to say "Thank God we have Euphemia to teach the Britannians to be kind and good and Zero to scare them into listening to her". Lelouch allies with guerrilla leader "Numero Uno" in Latin America, who becomes jealous of Zero's fame and seeks to outdo him.
    That makes no sense at all. "Thank God we have Euphemia." That's so lame.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    As the time for the dedication draws near, Lelouch and the Black knights travel back to Japan and Lelouch arranges for an anonymous benefactor to pay for the Ashford students to take a vacation at a luxurious resort far from the site of the statue. Euphemia and Suzaku take a rare vacation at the same resort at the same time to be with Nunnnally. But "Numero Uno" learns that a very important person is secretly staying at that resort at that time and plans to capture the resort and use that person as a hostage.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Then, as the dedication ceremony is about to begin and "Numero Uno" is about to strike, Euphemia and Suzaku find out about both plots and have to decide what to do, while at the same time the Chinese federation launches another attempt to invade Japan, hoping to capture the Emperor, as the second season ends.
    Don't get me wrong, this plot works. You should write a fanfic the way you wanted it. I do it all the time. The problem with it being in the show is that the plot was about Area 11, changing it would turn most people off.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    b) Just after the SAZ starts up the Chinese Federation invades Japan again and the happy little group of Lelouch, Suzaku, Euphemia, and Nunnally splits up as they choose two or more different responses to the invasion, ending up on two, three, or four, sides, as well as all the other characters.
    That would get old fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    c) As wars heat up and the SAZ seems a little haven of peace in a world would of strife, and Lelouch longs to break his agreement with Euphie and take part, aliens from outer space attack, seeking to enslave or even exterminate all Humans. Lelouch's leadership skills learned in the first season become the key to the survival of Humanity as all warring groups unite to fight the common enemy and Lelouch seeks to gain the leadership and save the world as only he sees how to do. But is he right, or having delusions of grandeur? (This idea was suggested by a science fiction novel in which aliens invade Earth during World War II and the Allies and the Axis unite to defeat their common enemy.)
    The plot didn't really lead up to that.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And there are many other ways the SAZ plan could have failed beside the massacre.
    I know, and I've written about plenty of them, but most still ended in Euphy's death.

    Examples:

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    a) Lelouch could have given Euphemia a geass command to resign as Administrator of the SAZ on the grounds that she was too young and inexperienced for the job, leaving no one else idealistic enough to make it a success.
    Anti-climactic.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    b) Euphemia could have simply failed to keep the various factions satisfied and the SAZ could have turned into another conflict instead of the answer to the conflicts.
    I thought about that one, but it is still a bit anti-climactic.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    c) The Emperor could have interrupted the opening ceremony by declaring the SAZ was abolished.
    This one is very realistic, however it would have also been anti-climactic.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    d) Lelouch could have given Euphemia the geass command to shoot hm as he told her he was going to do, and could have "risen from death" (whatever he meant by that) to lead a rebellion against Britannia as he had planned.
    Instead he decided to work with her, which made him look way more human.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    e) Other groups could have disrupted the opening ceremony, perhaps by kidnapping Euphemia, in a bid to keep the conflict going.
    Kidnapped princess... Good idea...


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And giving Euphemia the command to kill the Japanese stopped the SAZ plan. Once the massacre started there was no need to kill Euphemia to kill the SAZ plan. Euphemia could have survived while the series continued.
    Yes it was.



    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    What! Do you mean that the people who told me to watch shows like Pokemon and Hamtaro because they had no violence lied and there will be tragic deaths of good characters at the ends of those shows?
    I was speaking of most war anime.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Are you saying that there are tragic deaths of good and noble characters in every anime series in every genre, like kiddie shows, romance shows, relationship shows, sports shows, school shows, etc.,etc.,etc.?
    *points to above*

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    In any case, CG is the only anime I ever saw in which the creators tricking me into liking the protagonist who then senselessly murdered the only good person in the entire series
    Hey, we agree. I really liked Euphy before I saw this thread, but now I'm not sure...



    NO HE DIDN't!

    When I saw episode 23 I realized within hours or days that it would have been easy for Lelouch to capture Euphemia alive and thus that killing her was murder and far too evil a deed for me to retain any liking for, or interest in, Lelouch. That is what I have been writing about in my posts for the last year -- Lelouch killed Euphemia unnecessarily and thus it was an evil murder.
    Your opinion.

    Carefully read and reread my posts # 284 and 285 above and you will see that Lelouch had to NOT kill Euphemia in order to stay good enough to be likable and for CG to remain watchable.
    Nah, I'm good.
    Last edited by xXPainful SmilexX; 04-02-2010 at 08:22 PM.
    " I am death and sorrow." -Acheron



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  6. #306
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
    Gil
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElectroGypsy View Post
    There comes a time when you have to shoot your dog instead of taking it to the vet. I believe Euphemia was one of those cases. And besides which, the notion of a Geass Canceller wouldn't have been thought of yet. Euphemia was a danger to all Elevens, and thusly had to be killed.
    Euphemia was definitely NOT one of those cases.

    As I keep saying the whole reason I am disappointed, upset, angry, and dissatisfied with Code Geass is that episode 23 makes it obvious that Lelouch could have captured Euphemia alive with perfect ease and instead chose to kill her.

    If Euphemia was captured and confined she would be no more likely to kill any Japanese in the future than any newborn Japanese baby would be to grow up and kill one or more Japanese people in the future.

    So Lelouch had no good and humane reason, such as protecting the Japanese from Euphemia, for killing her that confining her would not satisfy just as well. Thus, since it would have been perfectly easy and safe for Lelouch to capture Euphie alive, killing her was murder.

    Lelouch only knew about geass for a few weeks or months before making the decision to kill Euphemia. So how could Lelouch possibly know that one of his geass commands could make someone work at a task for more than a few weeks or months?

    Lelouch had absolutely no reason to believe that Euphemia's geass command would never wear off or that no method of breaking a geass command would ever be discovered.

    You claim that Euphie was a danger to all Elevens and thus had to be killed. Aren't you a potential danger to everyone in the world, since you might kill anyone in the world in a hypothetical future? So shouldn't you be killed right now to prevent you from possibly killing someone somewhere sometime in the future?

    I fail to see much difference between the slight danger that a confined Euphemia might find a way to kill more Japanese people in the future and the slight danger that you who are free might kill someone in the future. If you don't want to say that yes you have to be killed right now to prevent the slight danger that you might kill someone in the future than you have to admit that there was no justification for killing Euphemia to prevent the slight danger she would pose if she was confined.

    And a lot of other characters in the cast were much more dangerous than Euphemia was, even after she was given the geass command to kill the Japanese.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 04-03-2010 at 10:29 PM.

  7. #307
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    That's why no one understands your thoughts.
    Ha! You wish!

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    PLEASE link me to where you obtained this information.
    I didn't find it anywhere, I decreed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    For one this, the episode is not called "get Cornelia" And what does this fact you have to bring up all the time have to do with anything?
    Okay, it's called "Attack Cornelia".

    This fact proves that Euphemia is good enough and more than good enough to be trusted with military and political power -- the only Code Geass character who is good enough to be trusted with a command. Thus she is the only character in the series worthy of being a protagonist that the audience cares about.

    The idea of making a series about characters like Lelouch, second-season Suzaku, CC, Kallen, Nunnally, Rollo, Cornelia, Charles, Schneitzel, Kaguya, etc., etc., who don't care if they kill a lot more people than they have to to achieve their goals, and having the audience care about most of them, is disgusting to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    How does he become evil exactly?
    He uses F.R.E.I.J.A. to destroy much of Tokyo and kill millions of Britannians and Japanese, in episode 18 of R2, I've heard.

    Towards the end he works with Lelouch and does nothing to prevent the evils that Lelouch does in order to become universally hated. Unless Lelouch can use geass on everyone using television, he would have to kill hundreds of millions of people to become universally hated for the Zero Requiem.

    I suppose the survivors of the people that Suzaku let Lelouch kill will not be very pleased by the idea that Suzaku only did so in order to have a chance to kill Lelouch and thus avenge those Lelouch killed as part of the Zero Requiem. I'm sure the survivors would rather have their loved ones alive and thus have no need to be avenged.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    So what are you trying to say?
    I'm saying that if the Kyoto Group supports many different rebel groups and many of them are guerrillas and some are terrorists, everyone who knows that terrorists are part of the range of organizations supported by the Kyoto Group should do something to change the tactics of the terrorists. And if he fails he should quit his group in disgust.

    I say that every Basque who is not so disgusted by the terrorism of the ETA that he has not given up desiring an independent government for his people is evil. I say that any Basque who knows of the terrorism used by the ETA who would ever accept independence for his homeland, even if it was a free gift by France and Spain without being pressured by the ETA, would be evil. I say that every Basque should prove that he is not evil by selling his property to someone non Basque (and preferably not french or Spanish either) and moving to some other continent, thus making it utterly impossible for the ETA to ever achieve its goal of an independent Basque homeland.

    And every Japanese person in Code Geass should realize that opposing terrorism is far more important than independence for Japan and so should have renounced all desire for an independent Japan until such time as every singe rebel group stops practicing terrorism. Since the Black Knights believe that the Kyoto Group funds all important rebel groups, since the JLF seems to be the most important rebel group and thus would be assumed to be funded by the Kyoto Group, and since an arm of the JLF practices terrorism in "Black Knight", the Black Knights should have refused funding from the Kyoto Group until the Kyoto Group stopped all terrorism by the groups it funded. Since they didn't refuse Kyoto group support and fought for the same cause as the JLF they were contaminated by the evil of the JLF and became evil themselves.

    Of course the group that became the nucleus of the Black Knights were described as terrorists in the first episode, so perhaps they were already evil.

    Now do you see what I am trying to say?

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    That's your opinion. Don't push it on other people.
    Goro Taniguchi and Ichiro Okouchi have pushed on thousand and millions of persons the idea that someone can kill people he clearly sees that he does not have to kill and still be worth liking. An idea which I find disgusting and dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Then move on please.
    So you can have the pleasure of enjoying Code Geass without thinking about how evil its ideas are?

    I can't stop thinking about Euphemia's murder, and the disgusting way in which millions of viewers continued to be interested in the series after that. The last time I obsessed about the evil and twisted ethics of a tv show it took me six months to get over it. And there wasn't any violence in that show. I can only imagine how long it will take me to get over my rage at Code Geass -- it has already been a year and a half. Goro Taniguchi and Ichiro Okouchi have stolen who knows how many years of my life.

    And they have probably scared me away from watching any movie or tv show that I have not already seen, for fear of other shocking surprises that nobody else cares about or would think to warn me about.

    And they have dishonored me by making me care about about a character who then senselessly murdered someone far superior to him without any ethical justification or practical reason to kill her.

    And they have contaminated the minds of millions of potential future warriors by making them continue to care about fictional characters who killed people they clearly did not have to kill. Some of those viewers may become warriors in the future and be less inclined to avoid unnecessary killing because of their love for Code Geass characters who don't care how many people they kill.

    For all those reasons destroying the popularity of Lelouch is the least revenge that I can take on them and get any satisfaction from.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    No, it would have been boring. You can't completely change every thing about a show in the middle.
    1) it would not necessarily be boring. 2) it would not be changing everything about the show in the middle, it would just change some things about the show. 3) I say that killing off Euphemia in such an obviously unnecessary way in the middle of the show changed the series into one which I saw no point in watching, and I hope to someday convince countless millions of people who have never seen it to never see it in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Why would Euphy be Viceroy? Not to mention. this would be random fights with no plot.
    As a promotion from Sub Viceroy for doing a good job helping to pacify Japan. Isn't promotion a normal part of a person's career? Didn't Cornelia tell Euphie in "Refrain" that as soon as she crushed the rebels she would go fight the Euro Universe and leave Euphie in charge of "this area"?

    Lelouch would be plotting a rebellion in this new Area and his fights would all be planned with logical goals as part of the rebellion. Suzaku would be hunting for the Black Knights and thus all fights he initiated would be for the purpose of defeating and capturing the Black Knights. How would that make them random fights with no plot?

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    That makes no sense at all. "Thank God we have Euphemia." That's so lame.
    That's your opinion. And the precise quote from my post # 289 was:"Thank God we have Euphemia to teach the Britannians to be kind and good and Zero to scare them into listening to her".

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Don't get me wrong, this plot works. You should write a fanfic the way you wanted it. I do it all the time. The problem with it being in the show is that the plot was about Area 11, changing it would turn most people off.
    No, I should write professionally and get paid for it, as partial compensation for the suffering that Code Geass has caused me.

    If I can't get permission to write science fiction novels about Euphemia Li Britannia I have an idea about a series of novels about various young princes and princesses in various alternate universes who are incarnations or avatars of of a god or goddess Euphemia or Euphemius. The Gods, or perhaps really incredibly advanced intelligent beings, are worried about the evil and destruction of Human wars.

    So during the period when Earth is advanced enough for a world government to be formed, but not yet advanced enough to already be making space colonies -- the critical period for uniting a species and bringing eternal peace -- the gods in alternate universes where some empire is trying to conquer the Earth send some of the gods to be incarnated as members of the imperial dynasty which is trying to conquer the Earth. In alternate universes in which there is no conquering Empire the gods would try something else.

    The Gods who would be incarnated as imperial princes of the Roman, Byzantine, Holy Roman, Persian, Chinese, Mughal, Japanese, etc. empires would usually be Euphemia/Euphemius, Dedouche, and Nunnally (Or Connery? I would like to avoid the letter L). They sometimes would have human names similar to their divine names and sometimes not. And they would have human identities and personalities since they didn't remember their lives as gods, but since their souls were divine the other gods assumed that they would do only good, helping their empires to conquer the world with the least amount of killing and destruction and then rule with kindness to reduce revolts to a minimum and bring about eternal peace as soon as possible.

    But as events in Code Geass showed the Dedouche and Nunnally souls, divine though they were, were flawed and had much capacity for evil. And thus they always react to their various travails as Humans by turning evil and killing many people, while the incarnations of Euphemia/Euphemius retain their kindness and goodness despite all their sufferings as Humans.

    And when the copyright for Code Geass runs out it will be easy to fit novels, movies, and tv shows about Euphemia Li Britannia into that framework as another incarnation of Euphemia/Euphemius in another alternate universe.


    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    That would get old fast.
    There are only 25 episodes in a season of CG, with about half a day of air time total. I don't see any reason why the hypothetical second season with a Chinese invasion would have to cover more than an hour or a day of fictional time per episode. Most of the characters would be running for their lives to escape the fighting in the first six episodes. Then they would be regrouping and deciding what they would want to do about the situation and choosing sides and arguing with other characters they happened to be with who chose another side in the next six episodes (inter cut with scenes of the fighting which several of the characters would already be involved in). And then in the next 6 episodes they would act to achieve the goals they decided on, involving a lot of fighting. The invasion story arc could end in the next 6 episodes up to episode 24, and everyone would start to settle down and in the 25th episode an entirely new crises (only slightly hinted at before) but connected to the back story in various ways, would suddenly begin, with a bunch of cliffhangers for the third season.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    The plot didn't really lead up to that.
    In "Island of the Gods" General Bartley mentioned ruins and relics left on Earth by aliens. Which proves that there are aliens in the fictional universe of CG and a particular group of aliens that knows the location of Earth. An alien invasion would not be as arbitrary as you think. Any decent writer could come up with a reason for the alien invasion which would make it triggered by recent events on Earth and thus seem like an inevitable result of events in season one.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    I know, and I've written about plenty of them, but most still ended in Euphy's death.
    Considering that I have proven that the massacre did not make it necessary for Lelouch to kill Euphemia and it was still necessary for Lelouch to keep her alive for his plans to have any chance of working, it seems really pessimistic for you to imagine that Euphemia would be killed a lot in alternate universes in which the massacre, the poor excuse for killing her, does not take place.

    Examples:
    (04/03/10) Did I write "examples" or did you write "examples"?


    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Anti-climactic.
    Perhaps, but it would not be an anti-climatic end to the show, but to one of the plot strands. But Lelouch would not be as evil as in the series where his evil plan to trick thousands of Japanese into dying for his cause was the direct cause of his giving the geass command to Euphemia. And some twist to make it more dramatic could be included.

    For example, a group of terrorists could be about to disrupt the ceremony with a bloody attack when Euphemia resigns. They could decide not to waste their preparations but attack anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    I thought about that one, but it is still a bit anti-climactic.
    Perhaps, but it would not be an anti-climatic end to the show, but to one of the plot strands. But Lelouch would not be as evil as in the series where his evil plan to trick thousands of Japanese into dying for his cause was the direct cause of his giving the geass command to Euphemia. And some twist to make it more dramatic could be included.

    For example, perhaps the failure of the SAZ could have been caused by some members of the Black Knights. When Lelouch announces his support for the SAZ some of the Black Knights accept it and some of the important ones are heard and seen rejecting it and they soon start to undermine it every chance they get. Strife develops between the two factions of the Black Knights and Suzaku accuses Zero of secretly supporting the troublemakers which angers Lelouch, leading up to a violent end to the SAZ but hopefully not for Euphemia. When the SAZ erupts in violence Lelouch can take up his old plan of rebelling and capturing Tokyo, pretending in his propaganda that all members of the Black Knights gave the SAZ plan a fair try and it is all the fault of the Britannians.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    This one is very realistic, however it would have also been anti-climactic.
    Perhaps, but it would not be an anti-climatic end to the show, but to one of the plot strands. But Lelouch would not be as evil as in the series where his evil plan to trick thousands of Japanese into dying for his cause was the direct cause of his giving the geass command to Euphemia. And some twist to make it more dramatic could be included.

    For example, If the Emperor came in person to suddenly decree the SAZ abolished, the crowd might be so angry they would start to riot and try to capture or kill him. And all the rebel groups who saw that on ty might spontaneously jump into their vehicles and head for Fuji in the hope of killing or capturing the Emperor who had squashed their last hopes for a nonviolent solution. And the Black Knights might join in.

    Or if the Emperor spoke from thousands of miles away, as seems more likely, Euphemia might plead for him to have mercy on the Japanese and not squash all their hopes and he might scorn her and and call her a fool, and everyone who loved or liked Euphie such as Suzaku, Cornelia, Nunnally, etc. might hate the Emperor. And perhaps many Britannians, the soldiers at the arena, and the tens of millions of members of the Princess Euphemia Fan Club watching on tv, might suddenly realize that it was better to be kind to the numbers like Euphemia than cruel to them like the Emperor. And perhaps Lelouch might even decide to take advantage of this and start a rebellion to put Euphemia on the imperial throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Instead he decided to work with her, which made him look way more human.
    I think that this was just a cheap trick by the creators to fool the viewers into not realizing how evil Euphemia's murder was.

    Lelouch went back to his old plan of starting a rebellion and killing Euphemia way too easily. All he had to do was stop the massacre. Then he could have taken his time to figure out what he wanted to do next. But instead he decided to kill Euphemia who had not done anything against him nor was trying to harm anyone of her own free will, which made her still a lot better and more deserving of life than any other person Lelouch knew.

    I suspect that perhaps Lelouch decided to support the SAZ plan -- for the moment only -- during his meeting when he realized that there was no way for Euphemia in her ball gown to carry concealed the relatively harmless needle gun he wanted her to shoot him with. Instead she would have to shoot him with a more dangerous gun she took from one of her guards, or else carry the needle gun in plain sight which would make Zero seem stupid for not noticing and worrying about the weapon. So perhaps Lelouch only pretended to make peace with Euphemia because he realized he couldn't carry out his plan.

    When the massacre started Lelouch had absolutely no reason to decide to kill Euphemia instead of capturing her. It was obvious that capturing her to use as a hostage to stop the massacre would have a good chance of working and saving many more Japanese lives than defeating all the Britannians who were killing at Fuji.

    And wherever Euphemia's broadcast message to kill Japanese people was received and obeyed other massacres would be started by other groups of Britannian soldiers. It is hardly likely that the black Knights defeated all the other groups of massacring Britannian soldiers before Lelouch found Euphemia and had a chance to use her as a hostage.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Kidnapped princess... Good idea...
    Sarcasm.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Yes it was.
    I don't understand exactly what you wrote. If you mean that it was still necessary for Lelouch to kill Euphemia to kill the SAZ plan even after the massacre started you are wrong.

    Lelouch had bigger fish to fry than the SAZ plan. In order to be an effective hero in Japanese eyes he had to save as many Japanese as possible from the massacre. And the fastest way to stop the massacre and save as many Japanese as possible was to capture Euphemia and use her as a hostage.

    And if the Black Rebellion failed who would be more dangerous to the defeated Japanese? A live Euphemia controlled by the geass command but resigned from the imperial family, disgraced, and probably considered insane? Or an enraged Cornelia determined to slaughter as many Japanese as possible to avenge the murder of her beloved sister who had finally wised up and started imitating Cornelia's habit of ordering massacres?

    And if Lelouch was killed all his plans and hopes would die with him. Who did Lelouch know who had any desire for him to survive and also had any degree of influence with the imperial government? Euphemia. Therefore he had to keep Euphemia alive in the hope that if the Black Rebellion was crushed she might successfully plead for mercy for him, giving him a tiny chance to start over someday.

    Lelouch had no good and decent reason for killing Euphemia that capturing her would not satisfy just as well. And he had no evil but practical reason for killing her that made any sense compared to his practical need to keep her alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    I was speaking of most war anime.
    Try to be more precise in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    *points to above*
    *points to above*

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Hey, we agree. I really liked Euphy before I saw this thread, but now I'm not sure...
    It would be unfair to blame Euphemia for something I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Your opinion.
    When Lelouch looked down on an unarmed Euphemia crawling out from the wreckage of her nightmare, how could he possibly not see that it would be easy to capture her alive?

    All he had to do was pick her up in a giant robot hand before she found some weapon which just happened to be lying on the ground. How hard or dangerous could that be?

    Some people have suggested that the hands of the Gawain might not be capable of precise control and might squash Euphemia if used to pick her up.

    But nightmares are often seen doing things which indicate they should be capable of fine hand control. For example, Lelouch or CC extended the slash harkens from the fingertips of the Gawain to slice up Euphemia's nightmare without harming her right before then. That makes it almost impossible for the Gawain to be too clumsy to pick up people without crushing them. And you would expect that the Gawain came with a "Pick up - do not crush" control to make the fingers close gently so it could safely pick up fragile objects.

    Instead of picking up Euphemia Lelouch let her pick up a machine gun and then walked up to her, hoping that she loved and trusted him enough not to shoot him. And he suddenly turned and treacherously shot her. And so he ran a very great risk that she would shoot him back. Even people who are fatally wounded usually have a few minutes to shoot their killers back if the killers just stand there expecting them to drop instantly. And even after Euphemia fell to the ground she might have been conscious and strong enough to point her machine gun at Lelouch and spray bullets at him, probably hitting him at least once.

    It would have been much safer for Lelouch to walk up to Euphemia, get her to to look away, and shoot her in the right arm, preventing her for being able to shoot her machine gun, or else hit her on the head to knock her out, or else persuade her to enter the Gawain (after the controls had been locked as a precaution) where CC would use the memory sharing thing she did to Suzaku in "Battle of Narita" to render Euphemia unconscious.

    And it would have been much safer still to simply pick her up in a giant robot hand as soon as she climbed out of the wreckage of her nightmare.

    Since I have shown that Lelouch needed Euphemia alive much more than he needed her dead, taking such an unnecessary risk to kill her instead of capturing her makes Lelouch evil and/or insane in episode 23.

    How can anyone watch episode 23 and not realize how easy and safe it would have been to capture Euphemia, and that Lelouch did not have to kill her but chose to kill her for some unknown reason that cold not possibly be good or rational?

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Nah, I'm good.
    In episode 24 Lelouch gloated to his confidante CC that once the rebels proclaimed Japanese Independence in the Tokyo Government Center the Emperor would have no choice but to come to meet Zero. Thus Lelouch revealed that an important part of his plan was the Emperor's visit. And Lelouch revealed that he had no plans to fight off the renewed Britannian invasions which would result instead of the Emperor's visit and that Japan would be ground into the dust in defeat, even with Lelouch in command.

    In episode 21 Lelouch was working on plans for a coup. I call those his Plan One. I deduce that those plans probably included starting a violent incident that would start a revolt and marching from the site of the incident to Tokyo to capture the government center and proclaim independence and invite the Emperor to a visit. When the Emperor arrived Lelouch would spring his trap and take over Britannia, locate and eliminate all those who had conspired against his mother, and remake the world to his desire.

    After Euphemia proposed the SAZ plan at the end of episode 21 Lelouch developed his PlanTwo. I believe that it was very similar to his Plan One except that he substituted the opening ceremony of the SAZ for the time and place of the rebellion-sparking incident in his Plan One. IN episode 22 Lelouch told Euphemia that he would make her shoot him which would start a riot to start his revolution and he would rise from the deed to prove to the Japanese that he was their true messiah.

    And after the massacre started Lelouch quickly started to follow his Plan Three. Since he had no time to plan it should have been only slightly different from his Plan Two.

    If Lelouch's Plan Two had any provision for saving Euphemia from the fury of the Japanese -- by claiming that shooting him was not her fault because she had gone crazy, for example -- Lelouch could have adapted that method to his Plan Three. If Lelouch had such a plan to divert Japanese anger away from Euphie in his Plan Two, when the massacre started he would have noticed that since the Britannian soldiers were slaughtering the Japanese with great enthusiasm there were a lot more shoulders to divert the Japanese hatred onto than in his previous Plan Two and thus it would be easier to turn the Japanese anger away from the obviously insane Euphemia and onto the Britannian soldiers who had obeyed even when Euphemia was clearly insane.

    But Lelouch did not do so in his Plan Three, which means he probably had nothing planned to protect Euphemia from the misdirected Japanese anger she would face in his Plan Two. Apparently Lelouch didn't care if Euphemia lived or died, or even wanted her dead. Either attitude is evil and disgusting.

    Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to a meeting in Tokyo he should have realized that he had to do everything possible to avoid scaring the Emperor away from the meeting. This meant that everything that Zero did had to be considered as propaganda to lull the Emperor into a false sense of security about Zero, even if that meant giving up some propaganda value in gaining Japanese support.

    So Lelouch had to make Zero seem like a great defender of the Japanese to gain Japanese support, while not appearing too frightening to the Britannians and especially the Emperor.

    So Lelouch should have planned to have Zero, who had claimed to be the murderer of Prince Clovis, "killed" in some spectacular incident and replaced as masked leader of the Black Knights by Lelouch claiming to be someone who approved of Zero's goals but not of Zero's more extreme methods. This "new" leader would denounce the murder of Clovis and any other excessively violent deeds of Zero but but praise all the good that Zero had done and vow to fight Britannia as hard as Zero but without resorting to terrorism or any atrocities.

    Lelouch should have realized that the leader of the Black Knights had to seem as honorable, kind, and gullible as possible in order for the Emperor to feel it was safe to come, as well as seeming to be a great defender of the Japanese to keep Japanese support.

    So Lelouch should have tried to keep Britannian deaths to a minimum, especially civilian deaths, and he should have tried to keep Cornelia and especially Euphemia alive at all costs.

    Lelouch should have known that if Euphemia was killed in the uprising the Emperor would suspect that she had been deliberately killed in the false belief that would hurt the Emperor, who actually did not love his children. Thus he would believe that the rebels and their leader really hated him and it would be suicidal for him to come to Japan for talks. So Lelouch's Plan Two should have had a provision to make certain that Euphemia escaped alive.

    And when the massacre started Lelouch should not have thought: "Great! Now that Euphie has started a massacre on live television I don't have to worry about harming Zero's reputation any more and can kill her like I want to." No, Lelouch should have remembered that anyone who knew Euphie even slightly, like her father, would find it hard to believe she would order a massacre. So they would suspect that the massacre story was a lie, and the "live" television included prerecorded computer-generated images switched on at the right moment, such as a "routine" cut from one camera angle to another, or that some kind of mind control had been used on her, perhaps by Zero. General Darlton did ask "What did you do to her?" so presumably a lot of other people actually did suspect that Zero did something to Euphemia even without knowing about geass.

    Lelouch should have believed, even after the massacre started, that if Euphie was killed, the Emperor would think "Thank goodness Zero killed Euphemia and revealed how much he hates me. Now I'll never be stupid enough to trust him."

    Lelouch should have known that if he killed Euphemia the Emperor would be tens, or hundreds, or thousands, of times less likely to come to Japan and his plan would be tens, or hundreds, or thousands, of times less likely to work. Lelouch saw how easy it would have been to capture Euphemia alive. But he killed Euphemia anyway.

    So Lelouch seems to have believed that since he wanted the Emperor to walk into his trap the Emperor would certainly walk into his trap and he didn't have to worry about scaring the Emperor away. So he killed Euphemia and thus doomed his plan to fail even if VV had not been sent to kidnap Nunnally.

    So Lelouch seems to have been a homicidal maniac in Episodes 21 to 25 and perhaps many more episodes and yet thousands and thousands of viewers kept on watching the show anyway.

    Every time I read someone say that they cried at the ending of Code Geass, after they saw episode 23 where it is so obvious that Lelouch kills Euphemia unnecessarily, and after they saw him order a massacre in the second season, I am depressed and disgusted.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 04-10-2010 at 11:17 PM. Reason: spelling, punctuation

  8. #308
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Ha!
    Ha...what? If you can't explain your thoughts in a coherent fashion that we all understand, then your argument is as valid as a hobo screaming on the curb about the end of days. True or not, nobody cares because you are basically acting like an idiot and no one cares. If no one is listening or caring, you have accomplished nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Towards the end he works with Lelouch and does nothing to prevent the evils that Lelouch does in order to become universally hated.
    Suzaku never used the F.L.E.I.J.A (purposefully) on people. Schneizel did that and on more than one occasion. Man, you are stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Now do you see what I am trying to say?
    I have understood what you have been "trying" to say right from the get-go. I know your opinion and understand it. AND?! Are you going to DO SOMETHING about the show? Knowing your opinion doesn't mean I have to accept it or even acknowledge its validity, which I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    An idea which I find disgusting and dangerous.
    Do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So you can have the pleasure of enjoying Code Geass without thinking about how evil its ideas are?
    Yes, because the story makes the audience think about how conflicts occur, how two sides of the same conflict view each other. Enjoying the show doesn't mean that I agreed with what Lelouch (or any character) did. And again, if you have a problem do something about it.

    We do not live in a nice little fairy tale gumdrop world. We have had some sick people in the past and we still have some now. Shows like Code Geass examine the darker sides of humanity, how the very best of intentions from ANYONE can become deluded and dark. How people wanted peace at any and all costs. Unfortunately, this has happened in real life.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I can't stop thinking about Euphemia's murder, and the disgusting way in which millions of viewers continued to be interested in the series after that.
    Do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And they have probably scared me away from watching any movie or tv show that I have not already seen, for fear of other shocking surprises that nobody else cares about or would think to warn me about.
    Do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And they have dishonored me by making me care about about a character who then senselessly murdered someone far superior to him without any ethical justification or practical reason to kill her.
    Do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And they have contaminated the minds of millions of potential future warriors by making them continue to care about fictional characters who killed people they clearly did not have to kill.
    Do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    For all those reasons destroying the popularity of Lelouch is the least revenge that I can take on them and get any satisfaction from.
    Good luck with that. How's that goin' for ya so far? Got anyone on your side? Made some Lelouch fangirls cry? No? No one? Haven't done a thing? Wow, what a rebel. Way to stick it to the man, by doing absolutely nothing.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 04-03-2010 at 12:54 AM.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  9. #309
    桜流し
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    Let's get this straight. In "Attack Cornelia", Euphemia was preventing them from sending out these certain machines, even though it would save her sister's life, Cornelia, because it would kill more Elevens. She absolutely refused. That is why I say that they could not possibly gun down a Britannian princess.


    「そんな顔をしないで。また会えるよ、シンジ君」
    ---

    もう二度と会えないなんて信じられない
    まだ何も伝えてない
    まだ何も伝えてない


    I'm sorry (not) sorry.

  10. #310
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    Lets all just end this right now. Lelouch killing Euphy is indeed murder ok no debate thats it she's dead and he's dead too. Lets all just forget the reason behind it and just accept that Lelouch killed Euph and that he's her murderer after all he pull the trigger, no more if or buts it's done.

  11. #311
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    That's what we've been TRYING to get across this whole time.


    「そんな顔をしないで。また会えるよ、シンジ君」
    ---

    もう二度と会えないなんて信じられない
    まだ何も伝えてない
    まだ何も伝えてない


    I'm sorry (not) sorry.

  12. #312
    Senior Member MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy's Avatar
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    It is very difficult for a series to be even a tiny little bit good without likable characters. Likable characters are likable for many different reasons but one requirement that all likable characters have to meet is that they are good enough ethically to be likable.
    I only just came back to this thread and this made me lol

    Obviously characters like Daleks,Darth Vader, Klingons, the Joker are not likeable characters and so cannot be popular
    Cos obviously no-one would like them for their evil ways and tendencies?
    Right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    I only just came back to this thread and this made me lol

    Obviously characters like Daleks,Darth Vader, Klingons, the Joker are not likeable characters and so cannot be popular
    Cos obviously no-one would like them for their evil ways and tendencies?
    Right?
    Right, right?? No. =p Actually I think we were talking about how likeable these kind of characters are. (Ergo Lelouch.)

    Edit: Sorry MangaFanGuy I just realized I sounded mean. >_<
    Last edited by Rei; 04-04-2010 at 11:05 PM.


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    I'm sorry (not) sorry.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Right, right?? No. =p Actually I think we were talking about how likeable these kind of characters are. (Ergo Lelouch.)

    Edit: Sorry MangaFanGuy I just realized I sounded mean. >_<
    I'm pretty sure he was joking you know.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Right, right?? No. =p Actually I think we were talking about how likeable these kind of characters are. (Ergo Lelouch.)

    Edit: Sorry MangaFanGuy I just realized I sounded mean. >_<
    don't worry I got what you meant anyway

    And agree that Lelouch is likeable like the others
    Did ProEuphie ever respond to the idea that they were likeable despite few (or no) redeeming qualities he seems to think are needed?

  16. #316
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    I only just came back to this thread and this made me lol

    Obviously characters like Daleks,Darth Vader, Klingons, the Joker are not likeable characters and so cannot be popular
    Cos obviously no-one would like them for their evil ways and tendencies?
    Right?
    They are the kind of characters that audiences "love to hate", as the saying goes. The audiences love to see them be defeated by the heroes in the end.

    I always thought it would have been better if the Daleks had a little bit of conscience and some of them were seen to agonize and hesitate over what to do, keeping the audience in suspense until they decided to do the evil thing and "ex-term-in-ate". That would make them more hateful and hissable in my opinion.

    Annakin Skywalker, the future Darth Vader, is actually a hero in the current Star wars: The Clone Wars tv show, since officially he has not yet been turned to the Dark Side of the Force. But he is already evil, in my opinion, since he has already done an evil deed, massacring a group of Sand People, including their children, to avenge his mother's death. I say that he has already very largely turned to the Dark Side, no matter how good and heroic most of his actions are.

    Of course Klingons became the allies of the Federation in Star Trek: The Next Generation and thus a number of more or less likable Klingon characters have been seen. But most of the glimpses of the new and "good" Klingon society and beliefs have made them seem even more dangerous and evil to me.

    Perhaps many audience members secretly like such evil characters and envy their freedom from ethical restraints while still cheering for the heroes when they defeat them.

    But Daleks, Darth Vader, Klingons and the Joker are popular characters because the audiences love to hate them. And audiences love to cheer the heroes who defeat them. But as I show in my post # 307 above, Lelouch, the protagonist of Code Geass, is just as evil as his enemies. So who is there to cheer for when the protagonist is evil enough to be a villain?
    Last edited by proEuphie; 04-05-2010 at 11:48 PM.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    That's what we've been TRYING to get across this whole time.
    You've actually been trying? I stopped when she implied that I was more likely to kill people than most people because of my military training and that, theoretically, I was more of a danger than Euphemia.

    Now I am just having fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But Daleks, Darth Vader, Klingons and the Joker are popular characters because the audiences love to hate them. And audiences love to cheer the heroes who defeat them. But as I show in my post # 307 above, Lelouch, the protagonist of [i]Code Geass[/I}, is just as evil as his enemies. So who is there to cheer for when the protagonist is evil enough to be a villain?
    Possibly, but in the case of many people, including myself, we don't love to hate Daleks, Darth Vader, Klingons and the Joker; we actually like them.

    No offense, but goody-goody characters are not very complex and not very interesting. They are a dime a dozen and we see them all the time.

    Take Darth Vader, for example. Sure he's the antagonist but guess what? The Star Wars series is more about him than Luke Skywalker. We at look his life, from his being a slave, to becoming a Jedi Knight, to being a hero in the Clone Wars to his betrayal and eventual fall into the dark side to his redeeming himself by sacrificing his life for his son. We see all of this development in this character. Luke Skywalker...there's not much to discuss (other than him almost doing his twin).

    The same thing goes for Lelouch and Euphemia. Lelouch develops as a character as the series goes on, having many flaws (both natural and Geass related) and facing those flaws and using them. Euphemia also has quite a number of flaws but we do not get to see her develop, so its no wonder why I care much less about her.

    The funny thing about you is that there is this rather hilarious double-standards with you. Villains can basically kill whoever they want and you don't care (you actually expect this of them) but the SECOND a "hero" (if there actually is one) kills somebody they "didn't have to kill" (whatever this means), they are automatically evil. Hell, even Princess Leia is not innocent of killing somebody; she freaking killed Jabba the Hutt by strangling him with the very chain he imprisoned her with (talk about hardcore) and Jabba is not the only one she killed.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  18. #318
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    Lets all just end this right now. Lelouch killing Euphy is indeed murder ok no debate thats it she's dead and he's dead too. Lets all just forget the reason behind it and just accept that Lelouch killed Euph and that he's her murderer after all he pull the trigger, no more if or buts it's done.
    I quote from my post # 307:
    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Then move on please.
    So you can have the pleasure of enjoying Code Geass without thinking about how evil its ideas are?

    I can't stop thinking about Euphemia's murder, and the disgusting way in which millions of viewers continued to be interested in the series after that. The last time I obsessed about the evil and twisted ethics of a tv show it took me six months to get over it. And there wasn't any violence in that show. I can only imagine how long it will take me to get over my rage at Code Geass -- it has already been a year and a half. Goro Taniguchi and Ichiro Okouchi have stolen who knows how many years of my life.

    And they have probably scared me away from watching any movie or tv show that I have not already seen, for fear of other shocking surprises that nobody else cares about or would think to warn me about.

    And they have dishonored me by making me care about about a character who then senselessly murdered someone far superior to him without any ethical justification or practical reason to kill her.

    And they have contaminated the minds of millions of potential future warriors by making them continue to care about fictional characters who killed people they clearly did not have to kill. Some of those viewers may become warriors in the future and be less inclined to avoid unnecessary killing because of their love for Code Geass characters who don't care how many people they kill.

    For all those reasons destroying the popularity of Lelouch is the least revenge that I can take on them and get any satisfaction from.

  19. #319
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    Seriously guys.


    Stop even responding.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  20. #320
    Member Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I quote from my post # 307:

    So you can have the pleasure of enjoying Code Geass without thinking about how evil its ideas are?

    I can't stop thinking about Euphemia's murder, and the disgusting way in which millions of viewers continued to be interested in the series after that. The last time I obsessed about the evil and twisted ethics of a tv show it took me six months to get over it. And there wasn't any violence in that show. I can only imagine how long it will take me to get over my rage at Code Geass -- it has already been a year and a half. Goro Taniguchi and Ichiro Okouchi have stolen who knows how many years of my life.

    And they have probably scared me away from watching any movie or tv show that I have not already seen, for fear of other shocking surprises that nobody else cares about or would think to warn me about.

    And they have dishonored me by making me care about about a character who then senselessly murdered someone far superior to him without any ethical justification or practical reason to kill her.

    And they have contaminated the minds of millions of potential future warriors by making them continue to care about fictional characters who killed people they clearly did not have to kill. Some of those viewers may become warriors in the future and be less inclined to avoid unnecessary killing because of their love for Code Geass characters who don't care how many people they kill.

    For all those reasons destroying the popularity of Lelouch is the least revenge that I can take on them and get any satisfaction from.
    +
    ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


    GET. A. LIFE.

    HOLLOW LELOUCH

  21. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    They are the kind of characters that audiences "love to hate", as the saying goes.
    Or just plain love
    cos they are interesting in ways other characters are not
    The audiences love to see them be defeated by the heroes in the end.
    Really?
    Are characters like the Joker and the Daleks ever truly defeated?
    I remember one of the new Doctor Who series STILL has the Daleks
    And Batman STILL fights the Joker
    So they are never truly beaten

    Vader was never truly beaten by the Good guy either
    his was a tale of Redemption from Darkness
    I always thought it would have been better if the Daleks had a little bit of conscience and some of them were seen to agonize and hesitate over what to do, keeping the audience in suspense until they decided to do the evil thing and "ex-term-in-ate". That would make them more hateful and hissable in my opinion.
    Why
    That would simpy make them lame
    awww evil automated uber killing machine robot got a conscience.....no that would suck
    The Daleks are 1000 times more menacing BECAUSE they lack the basic human emotions of love and guilt
    they prey upon the human fear of something that is kills not because it hates you but because it has only that mission of killing you
    Annakin Skywalker, the future Darth Vader, is actually a hero in the current Star wars: The Clone Wars tv show, since officially he has not yet been turned to the Dark Side of the Force. But he is already evil, in my opinion, since he has already done an evil deed, massacring a group of Sand People, including their children, to avenge his mother's death. I say that he has already very largely turned to the Dark Side, no matter how good and heroic most of his actions are.
    He is still a hero
    A good guy
    whether you like it or not
    but then Euphemia killed civilians
    and yet you can find all kinds of excuses for her
    Perhaps many audience members secretly like such evil characters and envy their freedom from ethical restraints while still cheering for the heroes when they defeat them.
    Actually that probably is one reason
    The Bad guys get to have all the fun
    they get to be what people wish they could be
    And people like them
    because they are INTERESTING and not some paint by numbers good guy (Which is also why people like Anti Heros so much, they have many of the traits of bad guys whilst still being sympathetic to a degree)
    So who is there to cheer for when the protagonist is evil enough to be a villain?
    Cheer for him then
    You see in the anti-hero many people see themselves
    someone who is flawed
    imperfect
    and we know for a fact that war is not all cut and dried Bad Guys vs Good Guys
    It can be bad guys vs slightly less bad guys
    And sometimes even heroes have to resort to underhanded means to win

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So you can have the pleasure of enjoying Code Geass without thinking about how evil its ideas are?
    What "ideas" are you talking about? Sunrise doesn't want you to respond in any one particular way. They wanted to tell a story that would get people thinking and talking. If you liked it, they want you to say why. If you hated it and thought it was evil, they want you to say why. They enjoy this type of discussion.

    However, if you never actually HAVE this discussion with them, your voice is never heard and you are just a nobody on a computer whining about a cartoon (actually, that's what you are regardless).

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    For all those reasons destroying the popularity of Lelouch is the least revenge that I can take on them and get any satisfaction from.
    Good luck with that, as you seem to be doing a crap job at it at the moment. I would LOVE to see the destruction of the Twilight series (no words can describe the hate), but I don't think talking to the FANS is going to help any, as anything I say is just going to go over their rather immature and unformed heads. I'll take it up with Stephanie Meyer. Likewise, you should talk to Sunrise about the show, not Lelouch fans, as we don't care what you say (actually, I am not the biggest Lelouch fan; I just don't care about what you say).

    Also, great job in taking my advice. I guess my opinion of you should change a little bit...not. Unfortunately, your methods of "debate" have not changed, so I still have the same (extremely low) opinion of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Seriously guys.


    Stop even responding.
    Why? I'm not being cheeky, I'm asking a real question.

    At the moment (with the exception of maybe one thread), the only way that proEuphie is actually bothering anyone is by responding in a way that makes her look like a sheltered five year old who stole her parent's computer. Unless you click on this thread (which you shouldn't if you don't want to talk to her), and respond, she can't (and isn't) doing anything to you.

    The thing with proEuphie is that (as I have said before) I see her as someone who (initially) had a relatively valid concern but had addressed that concern in a profoundly stupid way, bordering on troll territory. Then we have a questioning of morals here and a suggestion of murder there and I stopped caring about her completely. While I call her a troll, this is because I have zero respect for her views at this point (I don't care anymore). I don't think she is actually a troll because I do not consider people trolls simply because they are annoying.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  23. #323
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    proEuphie is not actually annoying. It is her failure at broad-mindedness, and to take others opinions that makes her fail. And I do consider her a troll, because of her ultimate ability to spam essays that say the same thing over and over.


    「そんな顔をしないで。また会えるよ、シンジ君」
    ---

    もう二度と会えないなんて信じられない
    まだ何も伝えてない
    まだ何も伝えてない


    I'm sorry (not) sorry.

  24. #324
    El Dementia The Truth in Blue has a reputation beyond repute The Truth in Blue has a reputation beyond repute The Truth in Blue has a reputation beyond repute The Truth in Blue has a reputation beyond repute The Truth in Blue has a reputation beyond repute The Truth in Blue has a reputation beyond repute The Truth in Blue has a reputation beyond repute The Truth in Blue has a reputation beyond repute The Truth in Blue has a reputation beyond repute The Truth in Blue has a reputation beyond repute The Truth in Blue has a reputation beyond repute The Truth in Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    proEuphie is not actually annoying. It is her failure at broad-mindedness, and to take others opinions that makes her fail. And I do consider her a troll, because of her ultimate ability to spam essays that say the same thing over and over.
    Well put.



  25. #325
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    You've actually been trying? I stopped when she implied that I was more likely to kill people than most people because of my military training and that, theoretically, I was more of a danger than Euphemia.

    Now I am just having fun.
    I did not claim that theoretically you were more of a menace than Euphemia, I claimed that actually and practically you are more of a menace than Euphemia. And I did not mean that as an insult but as a Reductio ad Absurdum of your argument that Emphemia was too dangerous to be allowed to live. All persons who are free are more likely to kill someone in the future -- no matter how little they may presently desire to kill -- than all persons who are confined for life are likely to kill in the future -- no matter how much they may presently desire to kill.

    Thus any and all persons who are free during a specified time period are more likely to kill someone during that time period than any and all persons who are properly confined during during that specified time period are likely to kill someone during that specified time period, even if some of the properly confined persons are homicidal maniacs.

    Since neither you, nor I, nor any of our readers, believe that we should be killed to prevent the slight possibility that we might kill someone in the future, we are logically forced to conclude that it can not be right to kill a confined prisoner to prevent the even slighter possibility that they might kill in the future.

    Euphemia was not yet a confined prisoner, but she was so safe and easy to capture and confine -- much safer and easier to capture and confine than to kill the way Lelouch killed her, as my post # 307 demonstrates -- that for all practical purposes of ethics killing her to prevent the slight danger that she might kill someone in the future was just as wrong as killing a confined prisoner to prevent the slight danger he might kill someone in the future would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Possibly, but in the case of many people, including myself, we don't love to hate Daleks, Darth Vader, Klingons and the Joker; we actually like them.
    I actually liked Darth Vader a little, but that was for his real or imagined good qualities rather than for his evil qualities.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    No offense, but goody-goody characters are not very complex and not very interesting. They are a dime a dozen and we see them all the time.
    So you call good and noble characters goody-goody characters, trying to reduce their goodness to silliness.

    Have you ever read any literary novels, perhaps as an assignment in school? Many of the main characters in literary novels are quite evil, but a lot of the important characters in literary novels never do anything evil. And some of them are strongly tempted to do evil but resist.

    There are a lot of literary novels in which nobody ever does any major evil or even in which nobody does any minor evil either. I guess all the characters in such novels -- even the antagonists and villains -- are what you call goody-goody characters. And yet those novels have complex and interesting characters with many flaws and strengths. And they have interesting and even suspenseful plots, even though the readers have no reason to expect the main characters to use a machine gun to solve their problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Take Darth Vader, for example. Sure he's the antagonist but guess what? The Star Wars series is more about him than Luke Skywalker. We at look his life, from his being a slave, to becoming a Jedi Knight, to being a hero in the Clone Wars to his betrayal and eventual fall into the dark side to his redeeming himself by sacrificing his life for his son. We see all of this development in this character. Luke Skywalker...there's not much to discuss (other than him almost doing his twin).
    I would say that Palpatine was the main antagonist in the Star Wars series, Darth Vader was a secondary antagonist in the three films about Luke Skywalker, and Annakin Skywalker was more or less the protagonist and tragic hero of the three films about Annakin.

    You say that Darth Vader redeemed himself by sacrificing his life for his son. Well, the ending of Return of the Jedi indicates that the Light Side of the Force believed that Vader had redeemed himself. But I have slightly higher standards. After all, most men want their sons to survive, so Vader had what could be called a selfish personal reason for turning on Palpatine rather than a noble altruistic reason.

    The series could have been written so Vader really did redeem himself. Suppose that in Star wars IV: A new Hope The Death Star was first used to destroy an otherwise uninhabited planet where the main rebel base was hidden, killing maybe thousands, tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of rebel warriors (though some of them escaped in time and formed the nucleus of the rebel force in later movies) Then Tarken ordered the Death Star to destroy Alderaan and then the other rebel planets. And Darth Vader protested against destroying a planet with billion of inhabitants. And when Alderaan sent out its small fleet of newly built fighters and slightly trained pilots (most of their forces had been sent to the rebel base) in a desperate attempt to stop the Death Star, Vader could have been at least slightly conflicted about defending a military vehicle which was about to kill billions of civilians. Perhaps his reluctance to help kill billions made him a little slow and helped the rebels to destroy the Death Star in time.

    Then in Return of the Jedi the second Death Star would be built in orbit around Endor's moon (home of the Ewoks) because Endor itself was a heavily industrialized planet with a population of billions who were enslaved to build the sections and ferry them up to the Death star. When the Emperor revealed that the Death Star was already operational by firing at the rebel fleet, he would say in Vader's presence that after the rebel fleet was destroyed he would destroy Endor's moon, whose natives were causing trouble, and then Endor itself, since the Endorians were no longer needed. Thus when Vader finally turned against Palpatine he would not only be saving his son but also know that he was saving billions of Endorian lives, which would be thousands or even millions of times as many people as he had killed by serving Palpatine.

    Thus by preventing the most monstrous of Palpatine's crimes, worse than all of his previous ones put together, Vader could really redeem himself, not merely in the eyes of the Force or soft-headed audiences, but also in my eyes.

    And Luke did have some character development, even if less than Vader did. When he first met Kenobi he fell under his spell and believed everything that Kenobi told him, including that Darth Vader had killed his father. Then Vader told him "I am your father" and Kenobi and Yoda confirmed it. Kenobi and Yoda told Luke that he must confront Vader. Luke said that he couldn't kill his own father and they said that meant the Emperor has already won.

    Did Kenobi and Yoda know the whole truth, or merely assume that confronting Vader meant defeating and killing him? In the latter case they could be depicted as villains plotting to trick a son into killing his father as in Rustam and Suhrab.

    In any case, in just a few months or years of fictional time Luke went from being a mildly rebellious and bratty farm boy to a Jedi knight confident enough about his values to defy the two wisest people he knew and seek to resolve the situation his own way, making a terribly risky gamble and puling it off. Doesn't that seem like a bit of character development?

    And when did Luke and Leia almost commit incest? By the end of the second movie Leia had declared her love for Han. Anyway, there is nothing wrong with accidental incest unless the characters involved carelessly omit to check the genealogical records when urged to do so and thus are guilty of negligent incest. So I say the climax to The Children of Hurin is dramatically meaningless to modern audiences except to the degree that a person with modern ideas can understand the strength of he ancient incest-taboo while not personally feeling it to as great a degree as the characters did.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    The same thing goes for Lelouch and Euphemia. Lelouch develops as a character as the series goes on, having many flaws (both natural and Geass related) and facing those flaws and using them. Euphemia also has quite a number of flaws but we do not get to see her develop, so its no wonder why I care much less about her.
    Of course we don't get to see her develop, Lelouch murders her before the series is half over! But Euphemia does do a number of things during the series, and some of them may be for the first time and thus may be examples of character development.

    For example, it is possible that a year or two before the series began Euphemia told Cornelia that she could no longer love Cornelia unless Cornelia cut down on the death and destruction in her wars and tried to reduce them to a minimum. Thus it is possible that Euphemia persuaded Cornelia to reduce by thousands or millions the fatalities in the wars Cornelia commanded by the beginning of the series. Of course, once Euphemia was so senselessly murdered, Cornelia probably went back to her old ways and killed thousands or millions more people than she needed to in the year between the first and second seasons. This theory makes the needless murder of Euphemia a real disaster for the people in the world of Code Geass.

    But suppose that Euphemia did not do so before the series started. Then there would be an example of character development, because Euphemia very probably did something similar during the series. In "Attack Cornelia", as Cornelia plans the Saitema Ghetto Massacre, a sloppy use of brutality to flush out terrorists and/or Zero when plans with less violence would have worked as well, Euphemia is seen thinking something like: "It is true that only those who risk their lives in battle are fit to rule, but still Sister..". Euphie is remembering something she said to Cornelia previously, or something she wished she had said, or planning something she hopes to say in the future.

    And a few episodes later Euphemia was present at the Battle of Narita. In "Gueren Dances" Cornelia told Guilford that Euphie was there because she wanted to see actual combat and that she had been unusually stubborn. But Cornelia was the big sister, had the superior political authority, and was much bossier than Euphemia. Overcoming Cornelia's opposition must have been a big deal for Euphemia. Unless Euphemia was secretly the power behind Cornelia's throne this may have been the first time that Euphemia managed to get her way in something that big and thus an example of her character development.

    And I can't help thinking that a major part of Euphemia's desire to be present at the battle was to make sure that there were no massacres or atrocities this time. Perhaps Euphemia told Cornelia: "When I made you promise no more massacres and slaughters in war I assumed that you would give them up when fighting terrorist criminals, since massacres and atrocities are even less justified in peace than in war. So please tell me that you will consider massacres and atrocities in civilian situations to be forbidden by your promise." In that case she would merely be closing a loophole in her previously successful effort to get Cornelia to reduce the killing in her wars. But if this was the first time that Euphemia had acted to keep Cornelia from killing excessively it would be an example of Euphemia's character development.

    And during the series Euphemia acquired a new boyfriend, perhaps her first, and seemed to fall in love with him, and showed increasing independence, and eventually resigned from the Imperial Family. All this seems to be character development, even if not as flashy as murdering your siblings and many other people and losing all your ethical restraints.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    The funny thing about you is that there is this rather hilarious double-standards with you. Villains can basically kill whoever they want and you don't care (you actually expect this of them) but the SECOND a "hero" (if there actually is one) kills somebody they "didn't have to kill" (whatever this means), they are automatically evil. Hell, even Princess Leia is not innocent of killing somebody; she freaking killed Jabba the Hutt by strangling him with the very chain he imprisoned her with (talk about hardcore) and Jabba is not the only one she killed.
    NO. I have a single standard which I use to separate characters into "'good enough to be worth liking" and "too evil to be worth liking". I say that it is disgusting to have protagonists and other major characters that the audience will probably like kill anyone they obviously do not have to kill, as Lelouch did when he killed Euphemia and ordered the geass directorate massacre.

    In a literary novel or a serious dramatic movie the antagonists or villains, if any, often do not kill anybody, let alone people that they obviously do not need to. In a serious drama characters can be quite villainous without the readers or audience having the slightest expectation that they will ever kill anyone, let alone kill someone they obviously do not have to. In such cases it would be almost as shocking and out of character for the villain to kill someone he obviously did not need to kill as it would be for the hero to do so.

    But in action-filled stories about wars and revolutions and conspiracies it is common for the villains to have much lower ethical standards than the villains in serious dramas and thus it is less surprising -- though equally regrettable -- when some of those action villains kill people they obviously do not need to kill.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 04-10-2010 at 11:45 PM.

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