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Thread: *SPOILERS* The shot that killed My Love for Anime

  1. #151
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechCNgod View Post
    Pro.... you scare me...
    TechCNgod....you and thousands like you scare me. See my post # 150.

  2. #152
    Cardinal of Eden Vital Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia's Avatar
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    His geass command to Suzaku to "Live" or "Survive". That command, given in a moment of desperation, was not planned. It did not specify what situation or situations, or types of situations Suzaku was supposed to survive, nor did it tell hims how long to survive or live.

    And Suzaku turned cowardly at that moment, as heard in audio tapes of his panicked reactions which were played at the end of the next episode "Island of the Gods". But later that day, in "Island of the Gods", Kallen attacked Suzaku and he defeated her instead of running away.

    The next day Suzaku was brave enough to fight Lelouch. Then, minutes later, when Kallen fired a machine gun at Euphemia and Suazku, Britannian soldiers in their armor rushed up to shield Euphie (and Suzaku) and Suzaku did not move to hide behind Euphie or get in front of her to shield her. A day or two later in the next episode Lelouch saw Suzaku fighting bravely against the Chinese invasion.

    And Lelouch was not shown being surprised that Suzaku was fighting bravely. Therefore his previous experience with geass commands that were vague about the actions to be performed and about the time period to carry out those commands probably showed him that when the geassed person's mind or the mind of some hypothetical geass intelligence interpreted the vague instructions the person would be made to carry them out for minutes, or hours or days and then just stop. If Lelouch omitted to give precise instructions the geass would only make the person obey the vague instructions for a while and then stop, and if Lelouch didn't like it too bad.
    That's not true. The Geass command on Suzaku was "live" or "live on" which did not mean don't die. It was more for when he became suicidal. Every time, it's when he's giving up.



    So Lelouch should have expected that his accidental command was so vague that it would be interpreted as "kill as many Japanese as you can for X minutes or hours and then stop" since it was rather unexpected that a phrase which was part of a longer sentence would even be interpreted as a command at all. Lelouch should have expected that if Euphemia was captured and confined she would soon be released from geass control.


    So Euphemia should have been controlled by her geass command for only minutes, or hours, or days and then stopped, and Lelouch should have expected that. And the second season evidence indicates that her geass command may have regained control of her from time to time.
    No. What about Shirley's "forget me" geass? It lasted until R2, when Charles re-altered her memories.

    I believe that Euphemia would be more happy alive than dead, as I wrote in post # 138, for example. And why would Euphemia be any less happy and contented than Suzaku who tried to fight without killing anyone in the first season and killed millions with F.R.E.I.J.A. in the second season? Has anyone ever suggested that Suzaku would be better off dead?
    No, because Suzaku wasn't a pacifist on R2. He got his resolve after he used FLEIA.

    Why would Euphemia have to be imprisoned for the rest of her life? What if wars started up again soon after the second season and in one of them the Japanese were exterminated by their enemies? If that horrible atrocity happened one little good thing would come of it, Euphemia could be released now that there were no more potential victims.
    You're saying an entire race should be killed so one person could get out of jail. That's like saying, "Hey, let's kill all the Jews because then Hilter can be free."

    Or what if she was told that the Japanese were wiped out by the giant earthquake and tsunami of 2019? She would be released from her geass and might or might not fall back under its control if she later learned that the Japanese were still alive.
    If she went outside, the news, the civilians, the Elevens, and everyone else would be asking her questions. Not to mention, most likely, she would start killing if she saw a Japanese person.

    And if Euphemia survived Jeremiah's geass canceler would become available in just a year and might be use to cure Euphemia so she wouldn't have to be confined anymore.
    Yes, but that plot point wasn't thought of until R2. After they already killed Euphy. This argument is rather pointless considering there was no Geass Canceler in R1.

    And my thread "Did Euphemia Escape From Her Geass Command Before Lelouch Shot her?" shows that Euphemia almost certainly defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon and also earlier right before Lelouch shot her.
    Everyone knows that. And before Lelouch shot her, her eyes were still red, so geass was used. I believe I said this on that thread.
    Why would the creators write that in?

    Since Euphemia could have been stopped just as fast, just as easy, and just as safely by capturing her as by killing her, she was not one of those persons who have to die to save others. She was killed for no good and decent reason, and no evil reason that I can see.
    She was killed for the same reason as Gundam 00 spoilers
     
    Lockon. Who dies on episode 23 about 10 feet away from Setsuna.
    They both died to make the end more dramatic and to make everyone sad. The difference is, everyone liked the guy from Gundam.


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  3. #153
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    That's not true. The Geass command on Suzaku was "live" or "live on" which did not mean don't die. It was more for when he became suicidal. Every time, it's when he's giving up.
    Was Suzaku suicidal or giving up when he obeyed orders to hold Zero in position while the missiles were arriving?

    Were Leonidas and his 300 Spartans suicidal or giving up at Thermophylae?

    Were members of the Light Brigade suicidal or giving up when they made their famous charge?

    Were the officers and men of the First Minnesota suicidal or giving up at Gettysburg when they made their famous charge in obedience to General Hancock?

    Were the "tin can sailors" who charged the Japanese cruisers and battleships at Leyte Gulf with a few destroyers suicidal or giving up?

    No, none of them were exactly suicidal or giving up. So Suzaku's geass command was intended by Lelouch to make Suzaku turn cowardly and stop heroically doing his duty and obeying orders at that one moment of extreme peril. Suzaku was not obeying orders to hold Zero at Ground Zero because he was suicidal or giving up on life.

    When Suzaku entered the Britannian military he gambled that he would survive his service and advance in rank enough to someday become powerful enough to help his people. When he was ordered to hold Zero in place for the missiles Suzaku knew that he had lost his gamble and would fail. Either he obeyed and died and failed or disobeyed and was disgraced and failed.

    I believe that in that moment Suzaku was like Khan Singh in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan when he set the Genesis Device to overload and destroy himself and his enemies, determined to kill and die instead of giving up and surviving. Suzaku hated everyone who had caused him to fail and he blamed Zero most of all and he had Zero right there in his hands and had a very easy way to die while killing Zero, a method which he didn't even have to spend time thinking up because he had just been ordered to use it.

    So Suzaku was not especially suicidal or giving up when, now that his life seemed meaningless and a total failure to him, he did his military duty and obeyed orders and also struck back as best he could at one of the persons who had ruined his life.

    So the geass command clearly would make Suzaku turn cowardly and survive even when Suzaku was not especially suicidal and certainly not giving up trying to fight and strike back at his foes. So it would seem likely that the geass command would make Suzaku turn cowardly every time he was in danger, even if Suzaku thought that the danger was no more than he had faced in previus battles.

    If the geass command had the strength to control Suzaku. Since the geass command to live did not affect Suzaku again in the first season despite several dangerous battles he was in, the first season audience should have interpreted it as a a one-shot geass command which made him cowardly in one specific incident and would never affect him again.

    And I believe that the way the geass command sometimes affected Suzaku in the second season can be explained at least as well by my theory -- that it regained full strength due to various technical geass factors a few times when he was not in any danger and thus it had no visible effect on his behavior and a few times when he was in danger and it did change his behavior -- as by the theory that the geass command remained at full power for the rest of suzaku's life but let him get into various degrees of danger and only took control when he was suicidal or giving up or in extreme danger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    No. What about Shirley's "forget me" geass? It lasted until R2, when Charles re-altered her memories.
    Yes, but I believe that would only be important if the command was to continually forget Lelouch. Shirley clearly remembered some experiences with Lelouch which happened AFTER being given the "forget me" command. She was not seen asking "who is that cute boy?" or saying "Lelouch who?" over and over again. The geass command was only to forget her experiences with Lelouch BEFORE being given the geass command.

    And so the geass command did not have to operate continuously to keep ordering Shirley to: "forget Lelouch, forget Lelouch, forget Lelouch, forget Lelouch, forget Lelouch, forget Lelouch, forget Lelouch, forget Lelouch,.......... In that case Shirley would be obeying the geass command for every second and hour and week and year until the geass canceler was used on her.

    Instead it is quite likely that the geass command acted one time only, putting Shirley's previous memories of Lelouch into a memory file marked "Don't access." which prevented Shirley from ever being able to access those memories unti the geass canceler was used on her and unlocked that memory file.

    Thus the geass command to forget would be like a geass command to "hand me you rifle" or "Order the prisoners released". Shirley only obeyed it for a second or so while forgetting and then it lost all power over her but she couldn't remember because she had already forgotten; the geass command had locked up her memories where she couldn't find them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    No, because Suzaku wasn't a pacifist on R2. He got his resolve after he used FLEIA.
    Suzaku wasn't a pacifist in R1, either. He was a soldier who chose to fight and almost never kill. I guess that made him a warrior who tried to be as nonviolent as possible. You may think that Suzaku got his resolve when he killed tens of millions of people, but I think that he showed more resolve, and certainly a better type of resolve, when he fought without killing.

    Paul Tibbits was not a pacifist when he dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima. But I saw a television program in which he said by dividing the the number of dead at Hiroshima by the number of Project Manhatten civilians and the military involved he calculated that his personal share was about one hundred people killed which he said was a terrible thing but he would do it again for his country. So that indicates he felt at least some guilt and it is possible that some other members of the military and the Manhatten Project felt a lot more guilt, perhaps as much as Euphie would have felt over the massacre.

    Even some Nazis who volunteered to help exterminate the Jews and were not pacifists and believed they had a holy mission to rid the world of the "Jewish Plague" found that they couldn't stand killing men and women and children and that more practice only made it worse and they started to suffer nightmares and asked to be assigned to other duties. I think that it is entirely possible that Suzaku often felt that he had betrayed his ideals and suffered as much guilt as Euphie would have felt if she lived.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    You're saying an entire race should be killed so one person could get out of jail. That's like saying, "Hey, let's kill all the Jews because then Hilter can be free."
    [/quote] killing if she saw a Japanese person.[/quote]

    Nobody who was good and benevolent would say anything to her that might result in the extermination of the Japanese. How could Euphemia tell a Japanese person from a Korean person or a Chinese person? Can you tell just by looking at them? Would any Japanese person want to be seen by Euphemia?

    Remember, world leaders are almost like prisoners of their entourages, with their travels planned and all their meetings pre-scheduled. Security precautions are a very big reason to insulate leaders from chance public encounters and you would think that Euphemia's security people would be even more worried about her safety than most.

    "I'm sorry, Your Majesty, but you will not be meeting any Chinese people on this trip. They are all afraid that you might mistake them for Japanese people, you know."

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Yes, but that plot point wasn't thought of until R2. After they already killed Euphy. This argument is rather pointless considering there was no Geass Canceler in R1.
    Lelouch only knew about geass for a few weeks or months before deciding to kill Euphemia. How could he be certain that there was no possible way to cure Euphemia? Especially since he was surprised by his geass power turning on permanently right before then. That showed him that he didn't know all there was to know about geass and his geass power.

    So Lelouch was not logical or did not care about Euphemia if he just assumed there was no way to cure geass commands and didn't bother to ask CC.

    And Code Gesss fans who assume that if Euphemia was not killed she would be controlled by the geass command for the rest of her life and have to be confined and maybe go crazy are forgetting that the geass canceler would have been available in just a year.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Everyone knows that. And before Lelouch shot her, her eyes were still red, so geass was used. I believe I said this on that thread.
    Why would the creators write that in?
    I have written many times that in the sickbay the red circles ere seen in Euphie's eyes while she was not obeying the geass command to kill and while she was not seen resisting it either. Thus the red circles were seen in her eyes when the geass command was not strong enough to control her nor even strong enough for her to notice it trying to control her. Thus the red circles can appear in the eyes when the geass command is very weak.

    Thus the red circles in Euphemia's eyes before Lelouch shot her do not prove that the geass was still in control of her. I believe that she defeated the geass command and that the red circles in her eyes prove only that the geass command was still struggling to regain control.

    As for why the creators would write Euphemia defeating her geass command in, I explained in a post in my thread "Did Euphemia Escape....?" that in order to show Euphemia having a quiet, and peaceful death and avoid making the audience hate Lelouch the creators had to show her free of the geass command. And of course that means that either the geass command wore off after a short period and Lelouch should have expected it to wear off, thus making all the perceptive members of the audience hate him, or else Euphemia defeated her gesss command with her super Human goodness, thus making all the perceptive members of the audience hate Lelouch.

    Killing Euphemia when it would be so easy to capture her alive is a lose-lose situation for Lelouch's reputation for not being totally evil. There is no possible way to write a story in which it can be good to kill someone as easy to capture as Euphemia was.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    She was killed for the same reason as Gundam 00 spoilers
     
    Lockon. Who dies on episode 23 about 10 feet away from Setsuna.
    They both died to make the end more dramatic and to make everyone sad. The difference is, everyone liked the guy from Gundam.
    But in episode 11 Allelujah was sent on a misision to blow up a building with children in it. If Celestial Being can order such evil missions then all its members who are aware of those evil missions are evil. Thus nobody in the audience should have liked any member of Celestial Being. But everybody should have liked Euphemia. Your statement seems to indicate that it is necessary to have a warped and twisted sense of ethics to enjoy Gundam 00 or Code Geass.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 02-19-2010 at 11:05 PM.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    TechCNgod....you and thousands like you scare me. See my post # 150.
    It's not what you are debating that scares me, it is that you..... go so deep on it..... and so long... O.o

    The seven stakes of purgatory! ^^ Good thing to know that they will be the last thing you see before you die. ^^

  5. #155
    Cardinal of Eden Vital Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Was Suzaku suicidal or giving up when he obeyed orders to hold Zero in position while the missiles were arriving?
    Yes. That's why he wouldn't move. AS normal person would have at least hesitated.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Were Leonidas and his 300 Spartans suicidal or giving up at Thermophylae?

    Were members of the Light Brigade suicidal or giving up when they made their famous charge?

    Were the officers and men of the First Minnesota suicidal or giving up at Gettysburg when they made their famous charge in obedience to General Hancock?

    Were the "tin can sailors" who charged the Japanese cruisers and battleships at Leyte Gulf with a few destroyers suicidal or giving up?
    I don't care. I was talking about Suzaku. In fact, I don't even read the parts like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    No, none of them were exactly suicidal or giving up. So Suzaku's geass command was intended by Lelouch to make Suzaku turn cowardly and stop heroically doing his duty and obeying orders at that one moment of extreme peril. Suzaku was not obeying orders to hold Zero at Ground Zero because he was suicidal or giving up on life.
    Live on. Would imply suicide. Lelouch also didn't want Suzaku to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    When Suzaku entered the Britannian military he gambled that he would survive his service and advance in rank enough to someday become powerful enough to help his people. When he was ordered to hold Zero in place for the missiles Suzaku knew that he had lost his gamble and would fail. Either he obeyed and died and failed or disobeyed and was disgraced and failed.
    That was only at the beginning. Later one, they reveal he joined the military to die.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So the geass command clearly would make Suzaku turn cowardly and survive even when Suzaku was not especially suicidal and certainly not giving up trying to fight and strike back at his foes. So it would seem likely that the geass command would make Suzaku turn cowardly every time he was in danger, even if Suzaku thought that the danger was no more than he had faced in previus battles.
    But it didn't. It made him not suicidal in battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Yes, but I believe that would only be important if the command was to continually forget Lelouch. Shirley clearly remembered some experiences with Lelouch which happened AFTER being given the "forget me" command. She was not seen asking "who is that cute boy?" or saying "Lelouch who?" over and over again. The geass command was only to forget her experiences with Lelouch BEFORE being given the geass command.
    Yes she was. She remembered him from meeting him in Narita.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And so the geass command did not have to operate continuously to keep ordering Shirley to: "forget Lelouch, forget Lelouch, forget Lelouch, forget Lelouch, forget Lelouch, forget Lelouch, forget Lelouch, forget Lelouch,.......... In that case Shirley would be obeying the geass command for every second and hour and week and year until the geass canceler was used on her.
    Charles used his Geass on he to rewrite the original command anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Suzaku wasn't a pacifist in R1, either. He was a soldier who chose to fight and almost never kill. I guess that made him a warrior who tried to be as nonviolent as possible. You may think that Suzaku got his resolve when he killed tens of millions of people, but I think that he showed more resolve, and certainly a better type of resolve, when he fought without killing.
    He agreed with Euphy, thus, was a pacifist.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Lelouch only knew about geass for a few weeks or months before deciding to kill Euphemia. How could he be certain that there was no possible way to cure Euphemia? Especially since he was surprised by his geass power turning on permanently right before then. That showed him that he didn't know all there was to know about geass and his geass power.
    By his actions so far, he had no way of knowing there was a cure. He also didn't care most likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So Lelouch was not logical or did not care about Euphemia if he just assumed there was no way to cure geass commands and didn't bother to ask CC.
    There was no time. And he most likely thought if there was, she would have told him.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And Code Gesss fans who assume that if Euphemia was not killed she would be controlled by the geass command for the rest of her life and have to be confined and maybe go crazy are forgetting that the geass canceler would have been available in just a year.
    But that is irrelevant.






    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    As for why the creators would write Euphemia defeating her geass command in, I explained in a post in my thread "Did Euphemia Escape....?" that in order to show Euphemia having a quiet, and peaceful death and avoid making the audience hate Lelouch the creators had to show her free of the geass command. And of course that means that either the geass command wore off after a short period and Lelouch should have expected it to wear off, thus making all the perceptive members of the audience hate him, or else Euphemia defeated her gesss command with her super Human goodness, thus making all the perceptive members of the audience hate Lelouch.
    No. That's all I can say. If anything, it would have been more direct if that were the case. More like:
    Euphy: Le-Lelouch.... Why...? Why am I covered with blood!?
    Lelouch: It's all for the best. *shoots*
    Euphy: Lelouch.... Why...?


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But in episode 11 Allelujah was sent on a misision to blow up a building with children in it. If Celestial Being can order such evil missions then all its members who are aware of those evil missions are evil. Thus nobody in the audience should have liked any member of Celestial Being. But everybody should have liked Euphemia. Your statement seems to indicate that it is necessary to have a warped and twisted sense of ethics to enjoy Gundam 00 or Code Geass.
    I HATE you. Celestial being are good guys. That was a FILLER. It was to add more depth to Allelujah, because he was exactly like Suzaku. He had another personality named Hallelujah who was evil.
    I already said that VEDA orders them. Veda is a computer.
    Anyway, the only evil member is Tieria. However, that's because Tieria is an Innovator(Living computer terminals) and his entire existence revolves around complete all of Veda's missions. However, he gets a crush(?) on Lockon.
     
    And when he dies, Tieria turns human for the most part. He actually dies to save the world at the end.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by akuNoHikari View Post
    Seriously... As long as someone is arguing with her, she will just never stop. Not that this is any of my business, though. In fact, I'm completely cool with seeing those funny arguments still going around here. :D
    Well, there lies the rub. While I consider proEuphie to be a troll in the broadest sense of the term, apparently some other members and mods don't think the same way because she is still here ranting and raving. And she has been doing this for months, so its not a secret as to what she is doing. Not all of her posts have been the best and I can't think of a single thread (including her own) where she didn't break at least one rule during her asinine "debate" (if it can be called such). However, despite her "trolling", she is still here. And apparently, for the sake of entertainment, some people want her here; the same thing happened with Mavericker with some people complaining about his existence on the forum but others (including the mods) made exceptions for him simply because they enjoyed the fact that he acted like an idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    The whole reason that I have been so upset about this for the last year is that it is perfectly obvious in episode 23 that Lelouch could capture Euphemia alive with ease and he chooses to kill her instead, and that thousands of Code GEass fans do not seem to have their regard for Lelouch lessened the least by that motiveless murder.

    Since Euphemia could have been stopped just as fast, just as easy, and just as safely by capturing her as by killing her, she was not one of those persons who have to die to save others. She was killed for no good and decent reason, and no evil reason that I can see.
    And again, I don't disagree with you that Euphemia's death was "shocking". Yes, her death was sad. While I knew she going to die (Sunrise makes these things PAINFULLY obvious for those of us who actually keep up with their shows), I didn't expect Lelouch to kill her. I will admit, that took me by surprise. And I understand that Euphemia was a favorite character of yours and other people and I can see why Euphemia fans would be sad about her death.

    HOWEVER, there is a limit. There is a thin line between shocked fan and complete nutcase and you are crossing it big time. You are seriously pushing it and most of us are WAY past taking you seriously because you are not sounding like a concerned fan voicing her opinion; you sound like a troll. And some people (including myself, I must admit) are really just responding to you to see what you will say next. I am done with taking you seriously on this issue (I was done a long time ago).

    Yes, I get it. You are sad about her death. Yes, there were other ways that Lelouch could have saved her. Yes, Euphemia could have lived. Yes, the whole event could have turned out differently. We get it and you have made sure of that for the past few months. When it comes to any of those things, the only thing I disagree with you on is the fact that most of those things wouldn't have worked (and the whole "Euphemia-broke-the-Geass-with-her-superior-goodness" thing; I think that's utter bull).

    Is there something you are trying to accomplish here? If you are trying to voice your opinion about Euphemia's death, to express how "sad" and "upset" you were about it, congratulations, we already know; you succeeded with that part, pat yourself on the back and have a cookie. If you are trying to change our opinion about Euphemia's death, because some of us have said that we didn't (don't) care, I'll tell you now: its not going to work. Its a cartoon and I honestly do not care what moral feelings about "good" and "evil" that you have been having after watching this show, but my opinion about it is not going to change no matter what you say (in fact, its what you are saying that is making me REALLY not care).

    I may have been shocked about Euphemia's death, but I quickly got over it, just like every other fictional death I have ever read, heard or seen. And I am not an exception to the rule; the vast majority of people react the same way I do (there are children who read Harry Potter who have gotten over character deaths much faster than you). Euphemia's death may have been "sadder" than some other fictional deaths, but it certainly was not the saddest (you need to watch some more anime, read some books, or something), and it does not change the fact that Euphemia isn't real and honestly doesn't (for lack of a better word) deserve so much attention on her "death".

    YOU may still be upset after more than a year after her death, but the fact that Euphemia COULD have been saved barely excuses you from your behavior, which borders on crazy. Just because you reacted to her death like a "real" one (which barely matters because you didn't even care about her until after she died; some fan you are), treating the simple "concept" of evil AS evil, doesn't make you a morally correct person; it makes you crazy...very crazy (and a troll).

    I took you seriously in the beginning, because I understood that Euphemia's death was a valid concern for her fans (I didn't AGREE with the concern, but I understood why it was there). Then came the questioning of morals and forum faux-pas that made me think that you someone who was simply younger than me who didn't understand the rules and the world. However, you have long since drifted into troll territory and if you want ANY sort of respect from the people here (something you need if want to be taken seriously), you need to calm down and get a freaking grip. Otherwise, its only going to get worse for you here (and if have ever seen Mavericker, you know how bad it can be for trolls; it can get so much worse).

    Little rabbit has found herself in the wolf's den; I suggest she take precautions.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 02-17-2010 at 12:35 PM.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  7. #157
    Junior Member ミシひめ is a splendid one to behold ミシひめ is a splendid one to behold ミシひめ is a splendid one to behold ミシひめ is a splendid one to behold ミシひめ is a splendid one to behold ミシひめ is a splendid one to behold ミシひめ's Avatar
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    Why are you posting a spoiler in the title of this thread!? You probably ruined Geass for someone, y'know?

  8. #158
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ミシひめ View Post
    Why are you posting a spoiler in the title of this thread!? You probably ruined Geass for someone, y'know?
    Oops!

  9. #159
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Yes. That's why he wouldn't move. AS normal person would have at least hesitated.
    You think that any normal person would have hesitated. Yes, and when a normal person hesitates, he freezes and doesn't move for a few seconds. That is a survival mechanism that often prevents people from doing something dangerous before they realize what is going on. That was an important plot element in the Star Trek: The Original series episode "Obsession".

    So if Suzaku was a valiant hero he would have held on to Zero for a few seconds and then made up his mind to continue holding to Zero. And if Suzaku was suicidal or giving up on life he would have held on to Zero for a few seconds and then made up his mind to continue holding on to Zero. And if Suzaku was a coward or a sensible person or hit with a geass command to survive he would have held on to Zero for a few seconds, than made up his mind to let go of Zero and run away as fast as he could. (and apparently it would have been too late to escape the missiles anyway since they were all transported to KamimeJima by a process I still don't understand).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    I don't care. I was talking about Suzaku. In fact, I don't even read the parts like this.
    So you don't care about real life. Apparently brave warriors are willing to fight when it is almost 100 percent certain to result in their deaths, if it is for the greater good of their cause, and/or might save the lives of a larger group of their comrades and/or if they are ordered to do so. And when groups of them do so it is highly unlikely that they are all suicidal or giving up on life at the same time, thus there is no need to assume that any one warrior is suicidal or giving up when he does something that seems insanely brave.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Live on. Would imply suicide. Lelouch also didn't want Suzaku to die.
    Not necessarily, since my understanding is that brave warriors sometimes do things which seem suicidal out of a sense of duty even when they have a strong desire to live. "Live on" could be a command to neglect your duty as much as it could be a command to not commit suicide or to not let yourself die.

    If Lelouch also didn't want Suzaku to die he certainly wanted Suzaku to be cowardly and escape from the situation they were in at the moment. And if Lelouch also didn't want Suzaku to die he may have wanted Suzaku to avoid getting killed in any battle anytime in the future.

    Lelouch probably thought that as far as Suzaku's fate went it was best if Suzaku fought bravely on Zero's side from now on, second best if Suzaku resigned from the Britannian military and didn't fight on any side, third best if Suzaku continued to serve Britannia but survived all his battles, fourth best if Suzaku survived the situation they were in now and was killed in battle later, and fifth best and the worst if Suzaku was killed right then and there.

    The command to survive or live was certainly adequate to prevent the fifth and worse situation if given in time. And it was clearly inadequate to cause the first best situation. But what about the second, third, and fourth best situations? Was the geass command to live intended by Lelouch to achieve any of them, and if so, which one? Was the geass command interpreted by Suzaku's subconscious mind or some intelligence connected with geass commands to mean any of those three situations, and if so, which of them?

    Obviously If the geass command worked to achieve the fourth or fifth situations it would not have to affect Suzaku at all after he was teleported out of "Ground Zero". And it wouldn't have to do anything at all if it was working to create the fifth situation.

    So if the geass which sometimes affected Suzaku during R2 was the same geass command that was given to him by Lelouch in "I Command You, Suzaku Kururoghi" and was not some hypothetical other type of geass given to Suzaku off screen by some geass user, it would have had to try to achieve the second best or third best situations.

    And it seems absolutely senseless to try to achieve the third best situation instead of the second best situation. In the Second best situation Suzaku would be harmless to Zero and his cause while in the third best situation Suzaku would be fighting against Zero's cause and doing it some damage, large or small.

    And it would be lot easier to make someone survive by resigning from the military than by making them try to survive when a battle gets more dangerous than some arbitrary level. The idea that someone can go into battle after battle and simply decide to do whatever it takes to survive when it becomes too dangerous is silly.

    If Suzaku tried to escape from too great odds he would either be killed despite his efforts to escape or else survive and almost certainly be accused of being a coward and then face court martial and sentences ranging from death to being dismissed from the army (achieving the same result as resigning with more fuss) to imprisonment or fines or reduction in rank to being returned to duty with a reprimand to possible acquittal. And then he could fight bravely enough in battle after battle until the situation got too dangerous and he tried to escape again and faced another court martial with more serious punishment likely, and so on.

    if Suzaku's geass command was given to a group of knights in armor some of them would never been in situations dangerous enough to invoke it. others would face dangerous situations and the geass command would make them retreat to safety.

    And others would be charging confidently into the ranks of a broken enemy army when suddenly their horses would step into mole holes or trip over a body or slip on mud or entrails or get hit by arrows or lanced by an enemy knight charging in from the side. And their horses would throw the knights and they would land hard. Some of them might break their necks and die, and most of the rest would be stunned and/injured. They could not do anything to obey the geass command to survive before enemy infantry rushed up to capture or kill them.

    If Suzaku's geass command was given to a few tank commanders some of them would never be in enough apparent danger for it to make them do anything to escape. And other would see such dangers and try, successfully or unsuccessfully, to escape. And others would be in a situation which didn't seem especially dangerous when suddenly their tank would hit a land mine, or get hit by a bazooka, or an artillery shell, or a shot from an undetected hidden enemy tank, or a bomb from an enemy airplane, and explode, killing them before the geass command could even activate.

    If Suzaku's geas command was given to a bunch of fighter pilots some of them would never be in enough danger for it to make them try to survive. And some would see that they were in great danger and try to survive. And others would think that their danger level was fairly low for combat when suddenly they would be hit by missiles from an enemy plane in their rear or from the ground, and it would explode in a fireball before the geass command could even start to make them try to survive.

    in the Battle of the Denmark Strait on 24 May, 1941 the mighty battle cruiser H.M.S. Hood suddenly exploded and sank just eleven minutes after the first shots were fired. Three men out of over 1,400 aboard survived. The German battleship Bismark that sunk the Hood was sunk three days later -- only 115 crew members survived and about 2,000 died. If a geass command to survive had been given to any crew members of those ships the only way it could have increased their chances of survival would have been to make them stay in port when the ships sailed, when the situation did not yet seem especially dangerous.

    Trying to prevent someone from being killed in battle by making him a little more cautious or making him avoid being suicidal in battle would have only a slight chance of saving his life. But making him resign from the military and avoid all battles decrease his chances of being killed in battle many times as much.

    So I believe that Suzaku's subconscious or some intelligence connected with geass commands was not sure how to interpret Lelouch's vague command to survive and compromised by making Suzaku cowardly for a short time and then shutting down the geass command. But some as yet unexplained technical factor caused the geass command to reactivate briefly from time to time. Sometimes Suzaku would be asleep or doing something safe and it would not change his actions, merely making him decide to resign from the military soon, and then it would fade away and Suzaku would change his mind about resigning. And sometimes it would briefly reactivate when Suzaku was in danger and make him do whatever it took to survive.

    That would be a lot more logical than assuming that the geass command was fully active all the time and only changed Suzaku's actions when he was in extreme danger or was about to give up trying to survive. In episode 20 Suzaku was about to give up trying to fight or live when Euphemia gave him a pep talk on the radio and and said she loved him, and Zero showed up with an extra energy unit for the Lancelot. That was a time when the geass command should have changed Suzaku's mind, but it didn't.

    That just about proves that my theory is correct and the other theory is wrong.

    And that is the way Euphemia's geass command should have been expected to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    That was only at the beginning. Later one, they reveal he joined the military to die.
    As I wrote before, people usually make important decisions out of a mix of several different motives, fears, desires and psychological characteristics, some of them unconscious, so they do not know for certain exactly why they are doing what they do. So Suzaku probably joined the Britannian military out of both stated motives and others that were never mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    But it didn't. It made him not suicidal in battle.
    Making some one avoid all battles is a much better way of improving his chances of survival than merely making him not suicidal in battle. Trying to keep some one from being killed in battle by merely making him non suicidal in battle is very weak and pathetic and stupid compared to making him resign from the military and avoid all future battles.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Yes she was. She remembered him from meeting him in Narita.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Charles used his Geass on he to rewrite the original command anyway.
    If the geass command acted continuously to keep Shirley forgetting there are three possibilities.
    1) Charles left the original geass command intact and added his memory-altering geass.
    2) Charles ended the original geass command and added his memory memory-altering geass.
    3) Charles was able to change Lelouch's geass command so that Shirely would have the fake memories he desired and continue to repress the memories that Lelouch had wanted repressed.

    In possibilities one and three Lelouch's geass command would have remained until Shirley encountered the geass canceler about episode 12 or 13 of the second season, and thus she would have forgotten everything that she experienced since about episode 16 in the first season, asking where she was.

    In possibility two Shirley would have come out of the geass command off screen sometime after the last scene in the first season. That would be preferable for your argument that her geass command was an example of making someone obey for a long time.

    Bu that would also mean that Charles could end Lelouch's geass command to Euphemia if she survived. Thus if Euphemia survived Charles probably would ended Lelouch's geass command to her. It would be announced that in their secret meeting Zero had told her that his men were abut to attack and capture the stadium as the beginning of his plot to massacre all the Britannians in Japan. But Euphemia had escaped from him and ordered her men to kill the disguised Black Knights in the stadium to foil him. Euphemia was so kind and gentle that the shock of having to do something so brutal had driven her temporarily insane but her doctors hoped to cure her in a few months or years.

    And in possibility three Charles could modify Lelouch's geass command to Euphemia and make her far less dangerous to Japanese and a similar story could be told. Thus fans who believe that Euphemia would have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life would be wrong.

    So you would probably consider possibility one to be the best for your belief that the geass command was constantly controlling Shirley. But all three possibilities require that the geass command control Shirley for about eight episodes in the first season. And every time Shirley was seen in a close-up we would see red circles around her irises.

    So instead of Shirley's geass command being an example of a geass command which controlled some one for a long time, it is an example of a geass command which made someone do something - forget - once and then shut off. It did not have to control Shirley any longer once it had permanently but not irreversibly altered her brain to make some memories off-limits.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    He agreed with Euphy, thus, was a pacifist.
    Euphemia was opposed to the brutality and cruelty of war, but she was not a total pacifist. Suzaku agreed with Euphie, the person who gave him tactical orders at the Battle of Narita and sent him out to kick Zero's butt - without killing anybody, it is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    By his actions so far, he had no way of knowing there was a cure. He also didn't care most likely.
    But he also didn't know that there was not a cure.

    Lelouch and I both think that the possibility of a cure is of relatively little importance, but for opposite reasons.

    I believe that even if it was absolutely impossible for Euphemia to ever be cured it was still a terrible, evil, murder to kill her, almost exactly as bad as it would have been if it was absolutely certain that she would be cured or was curing herself by defeating her geass command.

    Lelouch apparently believed that even if Euphemia was certain to be cured, killing her for some unknown and senseless reason was still what he wanted to do, just as much as if she was certain to be controlled by the geass forever.

    Not caring about any factor which might reduce the alleged need or desire to kill a person makes someone evil. You just wrote that Lelouch was evil and that no one should like him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    There was no time. And he most likely thought if there was, she would have told him.
    There was plenty of time to Lelouch to order his men to capture Euphie to use as a hostage to stop the massacre and later ask CC questions about what should be done with her. If capturing someone is easy and you have no time to figure out whether killing them is best you have to capture them first and figure out whether to kill them later. When in doubt, don't kill.

    And Lelouch just had his geass come on permanently without any warning from CC about that. So why would he assume that she would EVER tell him ANYTHING that he EVER needed to know?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    But that is irrelevant.
    It might or might not be irrelevant to the evilness of Lelouch's decision but it is certainly relevant to the fan's beliefs about whether Euphemia would be controlled by the geass for the rest of her life and their defense of her murder based on the belief that she would have been.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    No. That's all I can say. If anything, it would have been more direct if that were the case. More like:
    Euphy: Le-Lelouch.... Why...? Why am I covered with blood!?
    Lelouch: It's all for the best. *shoots*
    Euphy: Lelouch.... Why...?
    Quoting from my post # 130 in "Did Euphemia Break Her Geass Command before Lelouch Shot Her?":

    Quote Originally Posted by NatsuNoAme View Post
    ...Euphemia never did defeat the Geass. Full stop before you make any more speculations. wolfgirl's right, what happens in the series is actually the truth; it is what the real scriptwriters have planned, it is what actually happens to Euphemia in the anime. You don't have to argue whether she is strong or weak or whatnot, because her life ends THERE. In that way, it already proves itself. We ALL know that you like Euphemia, it shows from your name; so why don't you just happily end this (Scratch that, make it all of your Euphemia-related) thread(s) right HERE and go on a rant of your favourite character.

    The truth is: She did not overcome the Geass. Or she would not have BEEN DEAD, indirectly killed by it, in the first season.
    In order to avoid making the audience hate Lelouch too much, the real scriptwriters gave Euphemia a beautiful death scene, highly unlikely to result from Lelouch ordering the Black Knights to kill Euphemia.

    Euphemia had to be conscious and able to speak and express her nobility and goodness for a beautiful death scene. She had to be uncontrolled by the geass, instead of shouting out orders to kill, kill, kill, for a beautiful death scene. Her boyfriend Suzaku had to be at her side for a beautiful death scene. Since Suzaku was there Euphemia had to be free of the control of the geass.

    Since Euphemia had to be able to talk for her last words, the real scriptwriters had to write her as being still strong enough to speak. Thus she was still strong enough to give orders. Thus she was still strong enough to kill. Thus the logic of the scene forced the real scriptwriters to write that Euphemia was able to kill (by ordering others to kill) but not killing, and thus free from the control of the geass.

    Since the geass command knew that Euphemia was still strong enough to kill, it would not have stopped trying to take her over because of her physical weakness.

    Wolfgirl90 "proved" that when she wrote that Euphemia would have gone crazy looking for Japanese to kill if she was confined in an asylum for the rest of her life, and therefore she would be better off dead. That was one of my reasons for starting this thread. Proving that Euphemia was still controlled by the geass when talking to Lelouch or in the sickbay would disprove what Wolfgirl90 wrote, and thus show the geass command was easygoing and would not drive Euphie insane with constant pressure to obey. And thus that Euphie would not have been better off dead than confined to an asylum for the rest of her life.

    Since Wolfgirl90 "proved" that the geass would relentlessly push Euphie to obey and kill for the rest of her life unless defeated, and since Euphie did not obey and kill when talking to Lelouch, even though Wolfgirl90 says that Euphie could hear living Japanese people screaming, and did not order Suzaku and/or other Japanese killed while she was in the sickbay, we can only conclude that therefore Euphemia defeated the geass.

    Once the real scriptwriters made what I consider a terrible decision to have Lelouch give Euphemia the geass command and order the Black Knights to kill her, they had three choices:

    1) Euphemia survives somehow, and nobody in the audience hates Lelouch for killing her, although some may hate him for ordering his men to kill her.

    2) Have Euphemia die in a way that was likely to result from Lelouch ordering the Black Knights to kill her. Yuck! That would have made many in the audience hate Lelouch.

    3) Give Euphemia the most beautiful and touching death scene possible, thus avoiding making the audience hate Lelouch for the brutal way Euphie dies. But that meant showing that she had defeated the geass, and thus that she was super humanly good and had super human power to resist geass. And thus making some members of the audience hate Lelouch for unnecessarily killing such a wonderful person, once they realize the truth.

    The real scriptwriters consciously or unconsciously wrote a scene which clearly shows that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay. Whether they knew it consciously or not, that was the way they had to write the scene, once they decided to give Euphemia a touching death scene. Period.


    That quote illustrates another way in which it is logically impossible to write a story in which it can be right to kill someone who would be as easy and safe to capture as Euphemia was. No matter how hard a writer might try it is impossible for him to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    I HATE you. Celestial being are good guys. That was a FILLER. It was to add more depth to Allelujah, because he was exactly like Suzaku. He had another personality named Hallelujah who was evil.
    I already said that VEDA orders them. Veda is a computer.
    Anyway, the only evil member is Tieria. However, that's because Tieria is an Innovator(Living computer terminals) and his entire existence revolves around complete all of Veda's missions. However, he gets a crush(?) on Lockon.
     
    And when he dies, Tieria turns human for the most part. He actually dies to save the world at the end.
    How can Celestial Being be good guys? Do you deny that one of their warriors was sent on a mission that involved killing several children, and that he only had second thoughts at the last minute instead of refusing the instant he was given his orders? Do you deny that the pilot of a powerful Gundam war robot could have probably ordered everyone in the building to get out at once and that most of them would probably have instantly obeyed? Do you deny that there was no evidence that the building had to be blow up instantly or else innocent people elsewhere were certain to die?

    Here are some quotes from the Hague Convention:

    Article 22

    The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not unlimited.

    Article 25

    The attack or bombardment of towns, villages, habitations or buildings which are not defended, is prohibited.
    Article 26

    The Commander of an attacking force, before commencing a bombardment, except in the case of an assault, should do all he can to warn the authorities.
    Article 27

    In sieges and bombardments all necessary steps should be taken to spare as far as possible edifices devoted to religion, art, science, and charity, hospitals, and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not used at the same time for military purposes.

    The besieged should indicate these buildings or places by some particular and visible signs, which should previously be notified to the assailants.


    It certainly looks like Allelujah was violating the spirit and possibly the letter of some of those articles.

    You say that episode was a filler. I guess you think that being a killer during a filler won't make someone evil for the rest of the thriller.

    I suppose you think that the only way to add depth to a character who seems good all the time is to make him evil enough to kill children unnecessarily.

    You say that a computer named VEDA gives orders to Celestial Being? So What.

    Do you think that Paul Tibbits was not a war criminal for dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima because he was obeying orders that came ultimately from President Harry Truman? I say that everyone in the chain of command from Truman to Tibbits and his crew were war criminals.

    So why didn't the Gundam users threaten to unplug VEDA every time it ordered them to do something evil? And why wasn't VEDA programmed to avoid unnecessary violence? What is the use of having a strategist who doesn't care about avoiding unnecessary killings? There is certainly no point for an organization of so-called "good guys" to accept such a ruthless leader.

    Celestial Being might have fought for a better or less evil goal than its opponents. Celestial Being might have used methods that were not as evil as its opponents used. But Celestial Being's methods were evil enough to make it an evil organization and its members evil persons.

    I see no point in making a story in which the protagonists are as evil as the members of Celestial Being.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 02-18-2010 at 11:54 PM.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So you don't care about real life. Apparently brave warriors are willing to fight when it is almost 100 percent certain to result in their deaths, if it is for the greater good of their cause, and/or might save the lives of a larger group of their comrades and/or if they are ordered to do so. And when groups of them do so it is highly unlikely that they are all suicidal or giving up on life at the same time, thus there is no need to assume that any one warrior is suicidal or giving up when he does something that seems insanely brave.
    This is an example of the Straw Man fallacy. Here's how it works: a person will make a conclusion based on the misrepresentation of of their opponent's views rather than what they actually said, thus creating the illusion of having disputed a claim without actually doing so. Example:

    Rolo vi Britannia says that he doesn't read the real-life parts of proEuphie's posts.
    ProEuphie interprets this to mean that he doesn't care about real life at all and that Rolo vi Britannia doesn't care about the sacrifices made by real people.

    This is a logical fallacy, proEuphie. Keep it up. You are definitely proving that you can handle this "debate" thing.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  11. #161
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ミシひめ View Post
    Why are you posting a spoiler in the title of this thread!? You probably ruined Geass for someone, y'know?
    Perhaps. But I would rather have been warned away from watching it by a review which stated that it contained a terrible, senseless, murder of the best character in the series by the protagonist, than waste twelve hours of my life thinking that Lelouch was good enough to be worthy of my interest and even liking, and then to be constantly thinking about it for over a year so far.

  12. #162
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    This is an example of the Straw Man fallacy. Here's how it works: a person will make a conclusion based on the misrepresentation of of their opponent's views rather than what they actually said, thus creating the illusion of having disputed a claim without actually doing so. Example:

    Rolo vi Britannia says that he doesn't read the real-life parts of proEuphie's posts.
    ProEuphie interprets this to mean that he doesn't care about real life at all and that Rolo vi Britannia doesn't care about the sacrifices made by real people.

    This is a logical fallacy, proEuphie. Keep it up. You are definitely proving that you can handle this "debate" thing.
    So you find a logical fallacy in a short sentence which has very little to do with my logical arguments?

    I admit that I exaggerated a little. I am sure that Rolo vi Britannia must care a lot about some aspects of real life. He clearly ignores real life in imagining the psychology of characters -- whenever he thinks it would be good for his argument for a character to think or feel in a certain way he says that character does think or feel that way, without considering if it is consistent with the psychology of real people.

    So what do you think of my logical arguments and historical examples in the next block of text below the one you quoted, where I demonstrate how Suzaku's geass command works?

    So what do you think of my logic in my discussion of how long Shirley's geass command to forget was in control of her?
    Last edited by proEuphie; 02-18-2010 at 11:51 PM.

  13. #163
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    (This is longer than what I would normally ever post, please bear with me.)

    @proEuphie

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So a command to "Kill the Japanese" or "Kill all the Japanese", which are the English versions that I have seen, could be considered vague. Lelouch did not specify a time period to carry out the command. And he did not specify if he meant to kill all the Japanese in the Fuji Stadium, or all the Japanese in the Special Administrative Zone, or all the Japanese on Honshu, or all the Japanese in Area Eleven, or all the Japanese in the world. And did it mean to kill only all the Japanese who were alive then, or to also kill all the Japanese babies who might be born after the geass command was given?
    Okay, now you're just nitpicking. Tell me...if someone were to just say "the Japanese" in a comment, would you think they were talking about the Japanese people in a stadium/another specific area or do you think they would mean the Japanese as a whole? Knowing you, to try and defend your point, you'll say the former, but the vast majority are thinking the latter.

    What's funny about your comment is you say that Lelouch's command of "Kill the Japanese"/"Kill all the Japanese" is vague and then go to say that because of that it could be interpreted as something like "kill all the Japanese in Honshu" or "Kill all the Japanese in the Special Administrative Zone" which are specific.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And if Euphemia survived Jeremiah's geass canceler would become available in just a year and might be use to cure Euphemia so she wouldn't have to be confined anymore.
    I'll combat that logic with two arguments depending on whether you go with real world or in-universe logic

    Real world logic:
    The concept was very likely not thought of until after Euphy's death.

    In-universe logic:
    How would Lelouch or probably even C.C. have known about its existence? It wasn't practical for him to try to keep her alive for something that he had no clue would exist AND even if he somehow got the thought for such a thing, who knows how long it would have taken for it to be made?
    That aside, if he did know (which he didn't; I'm talking hypothetically) it was possible the rebellion may not have lasted that necessary year otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Has anyone ever suggested that Suzaku would be better off dead?
    ...Yes. But I don't think it's for the same reasons you believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Quote: "Women and children first." That is a very common concept. I don't see why you should be more concerned about me than about millions or billions of other persons.

    Did you see my posts # 105, 140, and 144?
    Don't be condescending. I know of that concept and I've read your posts, I'm more concerned over your use of a formula for so many things, including the one to determine how sad someone's death compared to else is -- or rather, I'm focused on the lie of you putting the death of someone else's younger cousin's over your own mother's (which, though still tragic on either side, you'd probably care more on a personal level if it were your Mom).

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    He clearly ignores real life in imagining the psychology of characters -- whenever he thinks it would be good for his argument for a character to think or feel in a certain way he says that character does think or feel that way, without considering if it is consistent with the psychology of real people.
    But it's not supposed to be so consistent in terms of real world psychology. Each person in any anime series has a certain "character" to them (ways that they will usually act) and will not necessarily act the way real world psychology would predict when given certain situations to handle. That's something you fail to grasp.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    This can be explained as the geass command having a lot of strength in the first few minutes or hours and controlling Suzaku and making him cowardly cowardly, and then losing strength until it can no longer make him cautious, and then sometimes briefly regaining strength at rare intervals for some unknown and no doubt highly technical geass reason.
    I think we're all still pretty sure that logic is faulty. As a matter of fact, I believe Rolo vi Britannia has already gotten on that one.

    P.S. using the phrase "for some unknown and no doubt highly technical geass reason" doesn't give me the impression that you know what you're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Why would Euphemia have to be imprisoned for the rest of her life? What if wars started up again soon after the second season and in one of them the Japanese were exterminated by their enemies? If that horrible atrocity happened one little good thing would come of it, Euphemia could be released now that there were no more potential victims.

    Or what if she was told that the Japanese were wiped out by the giant earthquake and tsunami of 2019? She would be released from her geass and might or might not fall back under its control if she later learned that the Japanese were still alive.
    So you would consider Euphemia's survival and inability to follow the Geass command due to lack of Japanese survivors a good thing in the wake of such a tragedy? Shouldn't you be more concerned at the fact an entire race got annihilated? It should be mourned, among other things, and take priority before Euphy, right?
    In any case, as far as your statement goes, it seems like you're trying to justify the massacre because then it would be impossible for Euphy to do Geass-imposed evil.

    As for the "what if she were told they were wiped out by the giant earthquake and tsunami or 2019?"...it would be rather hard to make someone believe that everyone of a certain race had died out, wouldn't it?

    Also, while I'm on that subject, you made a comment about how/if she could tell the difference between a Japanese person compared to a Korean or Chinese person. I'd like to point out that there are defining physical features between each of those.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And as I wrote above, Euphemia's geass command probably would have lasted just a few minutes or hours or days anyway.

    And my thread "Did Euphemia Escape From Her Geass Command Before Lelouch Shot her?" shows that Euphemia almost certainly defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon and also earlier right before Lelouch shot her.
    There is a difference between "defeating" her Geass command and "temporarily resisting" it! Please learn it.

    Since you've "researched" the rest of Code Geass thoroughly, I'll give you a quote from a place I'm sure you've visited: "Though a victim may resist a command at first, they will eventually submit." People do NOT break Geass commands, they can merely resist them for short periods of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    if you don't have any religion why do you assume that Euphemia would be happier in an afterlife than in a life on Earth?
    Correction: I said I was not "Christian, Wiccan, or any other religion you decided to attempt to group people in" I never said I didn't have one.

    @aku NoHikari

    Quote Originally Posted by akuNoHikari View Post
    Seriously... As long as someone is arguing with her, she will just never stop. Not that this is any of my business, though. In fact, I'm completely cool with seeing those funny arguments still going around here.
    Then there's where a problem lies (the "I'm completely cool with seeing those funny arguments..."). There are surely admins on here, and someone out of them has to have the power to ban her (I've seen people on here who have been banned, therefore...) yet because those admins would rather see these "funny arguments" nothing is being done -- it's unfair.

    However, I could agree on the point that she should probably be ignored.
    It won't stop her from spamming, but then she can't argue as much.
    The positive point being the following:

    Since there would then be no "funny arguments", she would just be excessively spamming.

    ...meaning logic would say the admins would ban her since there'd be no excuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by akuNoHikari View Post
    There's just NO POINT in arguing about it over and over!! It's not gonna make the writers decide to change the story and make Euphemia live for you. In other words: Live with it. If you can't, just forget about Code Geass. That's all. Is it that hard?
    Short, sweet, and to the point. I like it.
    If only it wasn't that hard for her
    Last edited by SakuraFox512; 11-15-2011 at 02:53 PM. Reason: Punctuation for posterity

  14. #164
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    How do you people find the time too write so much?

  15. #165
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So you find a logical fallacy in a short sentence which has very little to do with my logical arguments?
    I said that that was AN example of a fallacy (something that you are guilty of committing in every other post that you make), not that your whole argument was one (your argument is terribly misguided, not necessarily a fallacy). A fallacy is a fallacy no matter how long it is and it doesn't matter if it was part of your main point or not. Like I said before, I really do not care about your "debate" at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So what do you think of my logical arguments and historical examples in the next block of text below the one you quoted, where I demonstrate how Suzaku's geass command works?
    I think that it is terribly misguided based upon your rather basic understanding of the Geass order and your rather amusing attempts at being right at every single argument you participate in.

    To dumb things down for you, Lelouch ordered Suzaku to "live" because Suzaku was willing to sacrifice his life in order to keep Zero in place while the Britannian army blew up the place. This order caused Suzaku to care about his life above everything else, including his direct, level one orders to not move, allowing Lelouch to escape. This is THE ONLY REASON why Lelouch gave the order. Its not until later on in the series when he decides to use this order to his advantage to make Suzaku his comrade.

    Lelouch did not give the order for ANY OTHER REASON other than to get Suzaku to care more about his life than his orders so that he would be able to escape. It had absolutely nothing to with getting Suzaku to quit the military, to become his comrade, to survive until the next battle or to escape the situation to continue fighting. Keep up the good work.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So what do you think of my logic in my discussion of how long Shirley's geass command to forget was in control of her?
    Again, your logic is misguided, and this time, its mostly because you didn't even watch the series where this all happened and you adamantly refuse to do so because of "morals". While you had plausible possibilities, you only went with the one that you WANTED to be true (and ran with it as if it were true; you have a knack of doing this).

    For your information, only your first "possibility" is correct. Charles added his Geass command to Lelouch's; he didn't cancel it out and does not have the power to do so (the closest thing he can do is seal the Geass ability of the user but this only applies to the USER and does not cancel out commands that have already been given).

    Lelouch's command to Shirley was to forget all the memories that were tormenting her, such as her torn feelings about him (loving him as Lelouch but hating him as Zero), her guilt for "killing" Villetta (who was still alive after Shirley shot her) and the various events surrounding the death of her father. Charles' command to Shirley was to basically forget that Nunnally was Lelouch's sibling and to accept Rolo as Lelouch's sibling. His command DID NOT overwrite Lelouch's; his command was merely added to the one that was already in effect. Shirley does not get ANY of those memories back (such as how her father died, her conflict with Lelouch, shooting Villeta, the fact that Nunnally was Lelouch's sister, etc) until Jeremiah uses the Geass Canceler on her, canceling out BOTH Geass commands.

    Because of this, your entire argument that Charles would have been able to change Euphemia's memories to make her "safer" around others is moot, because Charles does not have the power to rewrite Lelouch's commands. When it comes to Lelouch's commands, he can only give commands IN ADDITION TO the ones that are already in effect; he can't prevent them from working altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Wolfgirl90 "proved" that when she wrote that Euphemia would have gone crazy looking for Japanese to kill if she was confined in an asylum for the rest of her life, and therefore she would be better off dead. That was one of my reasons for starting this thread.


    If one of the reasons you started this thread was because of what I said, you need to grow up just a bit. You are all alone on this rant of yours. I may be "in your face" about Euphemia's death but I am not alone in those views. Right now, you sound like you are whining about what I said. "Well, I have to prove Wolfgirl90 wrong because she said some hurtful things to me about Euphemia, wawa, bork, bork." Seriously? And you wonder why some people think that you are a troll.

    First, I never said that Euphemia would be "better off dead" (she's a cartoon character; I could honestly care less if she "lived" or "died"). I merely said that, if kept alive she would go crazy and this is based off the fact that we already know about one person who did (its not like I am pulling this out of thin air). Second, proving that Euphemia was still controlled by the Geass while still in the sickbay not only DOES NOT disprove my point (I have been saying that ever since I first met you; we ALL know that she was still controlled by the Geass in the sickbay), it disproves yours (you are just lying now). Haven't you been saying that Euphemia broke the Geass before she got shot for the longest time now (Didn't you make an entire thread about that?)? Doesn't the Geass activating in the sickbay debunk that point? And how "easygoing" could the Geass be if it activated while she was on her deathbed?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Since Wolfgirl90 "proved" that the geass would relentlessly push Euphie to obey and kill for the rest of her life unless defeated, and since Euphie did not obey and kill when talking to Lelouch, even though Wolfgirl90 says that Euphie could hear living Japanese people screaming, and did not order Suzaku and/or other Japanese killed while she was in the sickbay, we can only conclude that therefore Euphemia defeated the geass.


    *Sigh*As I have said before, the "relentless push" to kill wouldn't really happen unless someone is trying to STOP her from carry out the order. This does not mean that she was constantly relentless all the time. Remember, the very first thing she did under the order was to kindly ask all of the Japanese to commit suicide (I have told you this already). She didn't become "relentless" unless someone tried to physically stop her. With Lelouch, she was having a conversation with him; he wasn't trying to stop her, so there was no reason for her to get away from him (plus, he was the one who gave the order in the first place). While she was in the sickbay, the Geass DID activate but she either pushed it back or it stopped on it own (since she was three minutes from dying anyway and wouldn't have been able to carry out the order). This doesn't prove that she broke the Geass, which doesn't matter anyway because Euphemia's "goodness" didn't not prevent the Geass from taking over in THE FIRST PLACE or change the circumstances of her death (whether she broke the Geass or not means nothing if she still died because of it).

    This proves, at best, that you found a plot hole (if you must use the Geass rules as if they were the freaking laws of physics that must be adhered to all the time every time [hell, not even that's true]). It doesn't really prove anything that you have said nor does it disprove anything that I (or other people) have said.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    How do you people find the time too write so much?
    Having a very, very fast WPM (I don't know how long it takes proEuphie to type, but it really doesn't take me more than a few minutes to finish any post) and a sadist love of crushing trolls.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 02-20-2010 at 07:50 PM.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  16. #166
    Senior Member Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    How do you people find the time too write so much?
    lol
    Sure Wish I had a little dvd player on my forklift at work... no, wait, that would be dangerous.


  17. #167
    Cardinal of Eden Vital Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia has a reputation beyond repute Rolo Vi Britannia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You think that any normal person would have hesitated. Yes, and when a normal person hesitates, he freezes and doesn't move for a few seconds. That is a survival mechanism that often prevents people from doing something dangerous before they realize what is going on. That was an important plot element in the Star Trek: The Original series episode "Obsession".
    I meant hesitate as in, stop and consider the order....

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So if Suzaku was a valiant hero he would have held on to Zero for a few seconds and then made up his mind to continue holding to Zero. And if Suzaku was suicidal or giving up on life he would have held on to Zero for a few seconds and then made up his mind to continue holding on to Zero. And if Suzaku was a coward or a sensible person or hit with a geass command to survive he would have held on to Zero for a few seconds, than made up his mind to let go of Zero and run away as fast as he could. (and apparently it would have been too late to escape the missiles anyway since they were all transported to KamimeJima by a process I still don't understand).
    So? What's this have to do with anything?



    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So you don't care about real life. Apparently brave warriors are willing to fight when it is almost 100 percent certain to result in their deaths, if it is for the greater good of their cause, and/or might save the lives of a larger group of their comrades and/or if they are ordered to do so. And when groups of them do so it is highly unlikely that they are all suicidal or giving up on life at the same time, thus there is no need to assume that any one warrior is suicidal or giving up when he does something that seems insanely brave.
    Wolfgirl90 handled this.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So I believe that Suzaku's subconscious or some intelligence connected with geass commands was not sure how to interpret Lelouch's vague command to survive and compromised by making Suzaku cowardly for a short time and then shutting down the geass command. But some as yet unexplained technical factor caused the geass command to reactivate briefly from time to time. Sometimes Suzaku would be asleep or doing something safe and it would not change his actions, merely making him decide to resign from the military soon, and then it would fade away and Suzaku would change his mind about resigning. And sometimes it would briefly reactivate when Suzaku was in danger and make him do whatever it took to survive.
    I believe his command only activated when he believed that his life was just about to end. That was the ONLY time.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    That would be a lot more logical than assuming that the geass command was fully active all the time and only changed Suzaku's actions when he was in extreme danger or was about to give up trying to survive. In episode 20 Suzaku was about to give up trying to fight or live when Euphemia gave him a pep talk on the radio and and said she loved him, and Zero showed up with an extra energy unit for the Lancelot. That was a time when the geass command should have changed Suzaku's mind, but it didn't.
    The Geass did activate, but Zero came before he had the chance to move.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    That just about proves that my theory is correct and the other theory is wrong.
    No it doesn't

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And that is the way Euphemia's geass command should have been expected to work.
    But that's not how it worked.



    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    As I wrote before, people usually make important decisions out of a mix of several different motives, fears, desires and psychological characteristics, some of them unconscious, so they do not know for certain exactly why they are doing what they do. So Suzaku probably joined the Britannian military out of both stated motives and others that were never mentioned.
    But it was confirmed in R2 episode 8 that Suzaku joined the military to die.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    If the geass command acted continuously to keep Shirley forgetting there are three possibilities.
    1) Charles left the original geass command intact and added his memory-altering geass.
    2) Charles ended the original geass command and added his memory memory-altering geass.
    3) Charles was able to change Lelouch's geass command so that Shirely would have the fake memories he desired and continue to repress the memories that Lelouch had wanted repressed.

    In possibilities one and three Lelouch's geass command would have remained until Shirley encountered the geass canceler about episode 12 or 13 of the second season, and thus she would have forgotten everything that she experienced since about episode 16 in the first season, asking where she was.

    In possibility two Shirley would have come out of the geass command off screen sometime after the last scene in the first season. That would be preferable for your argument that her geass command was an example of making someone obey for a long time.

    Bu that would also mean that Charles could end Lelouch's geass command to Euphemia if she survived. Thus if Euphemia survived Charles probably would ended Lelouch's geass command to her. It would be announced that in their secret meeting Zero had told her that his men were abut to attack and capture the stadium as the beginning of his plot to massacre all the Britannians in Japan. But Euphemia had escaped from him and ordered her men to kill the disguised Black Knights in the stadium to foil him. Euphemia was so kind and gentle that the shock of having to do something so brutal had driven her temporarily insane but her doctors hoped to cure her in a few months or years.

    And in possibility three Charles could modify Lelouch's geass command to Euphemia and make her far less dangerous to Japanese and a similar story could be told. Thus fans who believe that Euphemia would have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life would be wrong.

    So you would probably consider possibility one to be the best for your belief that the geass command was constantly controlling Shirley. But all three possibilities require that the geass command control Shirley for about eight episodes in the first season. And every time Shirley was seen in a close-up we would see red circles around her irises.

    So instead of Shirley's geass command being an example of a geass command which controlled some one for a long time, it is an example of a geass command which made someone do something - forget - once and then shut off. It did not have to control Shirley any longer once it had permanently but not irreversibly altered her brain to make some memories off-limits.
    Wolfgirl90 handled this as well.




    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Euphemia was opposed to the brutality and cruelty of war, but she was not a total pacifist. Suzaku agreed with Euphie, the person who gave him tactical orders at the Battle of Narita and sent him out to kick Zero's butt - without killing anybody, it is true.
    Euphy was few stages short of Marina Ismail. The ONLY difference is that Euphy didn't make me want to pull my hair out every time she talked.



    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But he also didn't know that there was not a cure.
    He had no way of knowing such.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    3) Give Euphemia the most beautiful and touching death scene possible, thus avoiding making the audience hate Lelouch for the brutal way Euphie dies. But that meant showing that she had defeated the geass, and thus that she was super humanly good and had super human power to resist geass. And thus making some members of the audience hate Lelouch for unnecessarily killing such a wonderful person, once they realize the truth.

    That's not brutal. This is: Not to mention, I lol'd at your words.




    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    The real scriptwriters consciously or unconsciously wrote a scene which clearly shows that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay. Whether they knew it consciously or not, that was the way they had to write the scene, once they decided to give Euphemia a touching death scene. Period.
    Lol.



    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    How can Celestial Being be good guys? Do you deny that one of their warriors was sent on a mission that involved killing several children, and that he only had second thoughts at the last minute instead of refusing the instant he was given his orders? Do you deny that the pilot of a powerful Gundam war robot could have probably ordered everyone in the building to get out at once and that most of them would probably have instantly obeyed? Do you deny that there was no evidence that the building had to be blow up instantly or else innocent people elsewhere were certain to die?
    *sigh*
    Allelujah: Is it nessicary to kill them? I could take them in to custody...
    Hallelujah: You're so weak!
    Allelujah: Hallelujah?
    Hallelujah: Take them in? How? How would you raise them? Have you been able to live a normal life after escaping from that place? Stop talikng about things you can't change.
    Allelujah: I know. But they'll have lives of misery if I just leave them.
    Hallelujah: Misery? Misery you say? I bet those kids in the lab don't think of themselves as miserable.
    Allelujah: But they'll feel that way eventually...
    Hallelujah: Do you think that girl in the Tieran thinks of her self as miserable? That's not the case is it? Stop pushing your opinions on others. You say nice things to make yourself feel better. Your kindness is just hypocrisy.
    Allelujah: But they're alive!
    Hallelujah: They're not human anymore. Pretty soon they're going to try to kill us. But you do have another option. I could take control.

    Want any more, go watch the episode. Allelujah REALLY didn't want to kill them. He cries when he leaves.
    I don't understand the other questions.



    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    It certainly looks like Allelujah was violating the spirit and possibly the letter of some of those articles.
    I don't even know what the hell that is...


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You say that episode was a filler. I guess you think that being a killer during a filler won't make someone evil for the rest of the thriller.
    WTF? I meant it was just to add more depth to him. That kind of filler.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I suppose you think that the only way to add depth to a character who seems good all the time is to make him evil enough to kill children unnecessarily.
    He is really emo afterward. HE REALLY DIDN"T WANT TO DO IT.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You say that a computer named VEDA gives orders to Celestial Being? So What.
    So human life was never mentioned in their missions.




    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So why didn't the Gundam users threaten to unplug VEDA every time it ordered them to do something evil? And why wasn't VEDA programmed to avoid unnecessary violence? What is the use of having a strategist who doesn't care about avoiding unnecessary killings? There is certainly no point for an organization of so-called "good guys" to accept such a ruthless leader.
    Veda is a Quantum Processor located on the dark side of the moon. It can't be unplugged because of the fact that it has no plug. It was a GIANT computer.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Celestial Being might have fought for a better or less evil goal than its opponents. Celestial Being might have used methods that were not as evil as its opponents used. But Celestial Being's methods were evil enough to make it an evil organization and its members evil persons.
    It's stuff like this that makes you look crazy.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I see no point in making a story in which the protagonists are as evil as the members of Celestial Being.
    I see no point in making OR watching a series where the main characters are as good as Euphy. Go watch Gundam 00 before you fight about it. You just sound like an idiot.

    You should watch Now Then Here And There, the main character was alot like Euphy.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  18. #168
    Member Disciple-of-Jashin is a splendid one to behold Disciple-of-Jashin is a splendid one to behold Disciple-of-Jashin is a splendid one to behold Disciple-of-Jashin is a splendid one to behold Disciple-of-Jashin is a splendid one to behold Disciple-of-Jashin is a splendid one to behold Disciple-of-Jashin is a splendid one to behold Disciple-of-Jashin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    How do you people find the time too write so much?
    Hell, I can't even find the time to read all of this

  19. #169
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    how do I delete this extra post?

    write something.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 02-20-2010 at 09:09 PM.

  20. #170
    #1Innovator xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX's Avatar
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    Gundam 00 is my favorite anime. I don't understand how:
    1. You can post stuff so unrelated to Code Geass in the Code Geass subforum. If anything, post a topic saying "Was Allelujah wrong to kill the children in the lab?" in the Gundam boards.
    2. How you can rule that they're evil without even seeing the show.
    3. Why you are so self righteous.
    4. Don't care who you offend when you say crap. Saying the members of Celestial Being were evil made me feel as though a knife cut into my heart. After everything they sacrificed for a world that not only betrayed them, but rejected them too, is completely ridiculous.
    " I am death and sorrow." -Acheron



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  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Gundam 00 is my favorite anime. I don't understand how:
    1. You can post stuff so unrelated to Code Geass in the Code Geass subforum. If anything, post a topic saying "Was Allelujah wrong to kill the children in the lab?" in the Gundam boards.
    2. How you can rule that they're evil without even seeing the show.
    3. Why you are so self righteous.
    4. Don't care who you offend when you say crap. Saying the members of Celestial Being were evil made me feel as though a knife cut into my heart. After everything they sacrificed for a world that not only betrayed them, but rejected them too, is completely ridiculous.
    (1. Agreed that this isn't really the place, although I don't like the fact that now that you mention it proEuhpie will probably now be encouraged to spam the Gundam boards as well, (Please limit your trolling to one forum, proEuphie)

    (2 + 4. I have now gotten around to watching the series myself, so pro's Gundam comments are now getting me annoyed at this point.

    One thing proEuphie -- don't try to judge any aspect of a shown you haven't even watched (or try to explain things in a show you didn't fully see *cough*CG*cough*)

    (3. Unfortunately, no one knows why.

    EDIT

    @proEuphie

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    how do I delete this extra post?
    (1. Click the "Edit" button at the bottom of your post
    (2. There are four options at the bottom of the panel "Save", "Go Advanced", "Delete", and "Cancel"
    (3. (overly-obvious step) Click "Delete" and there you have it.

    I'm curious; though it seems that it's not an "extra post" you're aiming to delete, because as I recall late last night/early today you were attempting to "debate" various points of my previous post in the post you're now asking to delete.

    Did you feel what you had written wasn't valid?
    Last edited by SakuraFox512; 11-15-2011 at 02:57 PM. Reason: Punctuation for posterity

  22. #172
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SakuraFox512 View Post
    (1. Agreed that this isn't really the place although I don't like the fact that now that you mention it proEuhpie will probably now be encouraged to spam the Gundam boards as well (please limit your trolling to one forum proEuphie)
    Quote Originally Posted by SakuraFox512 View Post
    (2 + 4. I have now gotten around to watching the series myself so pro's Gundam comments are now getting me annoyed at this point
    Quote Originally Posted by SakuraFox512 View Post
    One thing proEuphie -- don't try to judge any aspect of a shown you haven't even watched (or try to explain things in a show you didn't watch fully *cough*CG*cough*)
    I saw Allelujah/Hallelujah blow up a building with children in it. And nobody who has commented about those actions has ever said that the children were about to test a new long-range super weapon by blowing up cities full of people, or that there was any other urgent need to blow up the building right then. Nobody who commented said that it would have been impossible to take the time to evacuate the children before enemy reinforcements arrived. Celestial being could have taken the time to come up with a plan to destroy the lab without killing the Children.

    When I was about ten or twelve I read how King John of England personally killed his young nephew Arthur (of course it is not certain that the story is true, but Arthur did disappear from the record while John's prisoner and was soon believed to have been killed by John or by his orders). Right then and there I decided that King John was an evil man. Even if he might have done a lot of good in his life, even if he somehow managed to do good in every other moment of his life, killing Arthur or having him killed was far to evil to ever be atoned for. I have never ever had the slightest degree of sympathy for John or any desire that anything good should ever happen to him.

    You may say that it is wrong to judge a man by one incident and not read entire biographies of his life to get a full picture, but I say that unless John miracously revived at least two kids from death he could never have done enough good to over balance murdering his prisoner Arthur. And recently I have had my unfavorable view of John confirmed by reading of another incident in with John killed not just one kid but many.

    When I was I kid I read how the Frankish king Clothaire I had his rebellious son Chramm locked up in a hut with his mistresses and burned the hut down. And long ago I read that he murdered his young nephews and I have always since despised and loathed him as an evil murderer of children. And you might suppose that it is wrong to judge a man by just one incident in his life. But recently I have learned of another, even eviler, crime committed by "Loath-ar". The book that told how Chramm was burned in the hut with his mistresses was incorrect. The true story can be found in my post # 64 above, "Lelouch's Love?", and confirms my initial view of Clothair I as a horrible, child-murdering, monster.

    In my experience reading about even one murder committed by someone is enough to form an accurate opinion that they are evil and not worthy of sympathy or audience identification.

    It is possible that if I traveled back in time to the reign of King John I might become his ally to fight to prevent a greater evil than any of the evils which he committed (and try to use any influence which I might get with him to persuade him not to kill any children). But I would never confuse allying with John for the greater good with the idea that he was not a monster of evil or that he did not deserve to die far sooner than my alliance with him permitted me to kill him.

    It is possible that if I went back in time to the reign of Clothair I (which he turned into a really black time in the Dark Ages) I might become his ally against against some greater evil (like possibly an invasion by carniverous aliens who wanted to turn Humans into food). But even if I prevented him from killing any children, I would never think that a person capable of such crimes was a good man or deserved any sympathy or respect or even deserved to live.

    It is possible that the goal of Celestial Being was so much better than the goal of their enemies, and their methods were so much less evil than the methods of their enemies that if I was in the world of Gundam 00 I would choose to fight as an ally of Celestial Being, judging that their victory would result in a less evil world (not a good world, but a less evil one) than the victory of their enemies.

    But even if blowing up the children in episode 11 was the only evil thing that Celestial Being ever did, I would never confuse the concept that victory for Celestial would be less of disaster for the world than victory for their enemies with the idea that any member of Celestial being was good enough to deserve even the least little bit of sympathy or love or respect, or with the idea that any member of Celestial Being deserved to live.

    Quote Originally Posted by SakuraFox512 View Post
    (3. Unfortunately no one knows why
    Quote Originally Posted by SakuraFox512 View Post
    EDIT

    @proEuphie



    (1. Click the "Edit" button at the bottom of your post
    (2. There are four options at the bottom of the panel "Save", "Go Advanced", "Delete", and "Cancel"
    (3. (overly-obvious step) Click "Delete" and there you have it
    That does't work: When I hit the edit button three buttons appear at the bottom of the panel, "Save", "Go Advanced" and "Cancel."

    Quote Originally Posted by SakuraFox512 View Post
    I'm curious though it seems that it's not an "extra post" you're aiming to delete because as I recall late last night/early today you were attempting to "debate" various points of my previous post in the post you're now asking to delete

    Did you feel what you had written wasn't valid?
    No. But the post got all messed. I tried to copy a some pragraphs from another post into my post to save writing new ones and my words dissappered from both posts. Finally the new post got so messed up I deiced to delete it and try again.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 02-22-2010 at 10:56 PM.

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    That does't work: When I hit the edit button three buttons appear at the bottom of the panel, "Save", "Go Advanced" and "Cancel."
    Weird, that works for me...try hitting "Go advanced", there is usually an option that appears above the reply window that will allow you to delete it.
    If that doesn't work, I don't know what to tell you since those are the only two ways I know of.
    It's possible your other post got a bit glitched or something
    Last edited by SakuraFox512; 11-15-2011 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Punctuation for posterity

  24. #174
    #1Innovator xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX has a reputation beyond repute xXPainful SmilexX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SakuraFox512 View Post
    Weird that works for me...try hitting "Go advanced" there is usually an option that appears above the reply window that will allow you to delete it
    if that doesn't work I don't know what to tell you since those are the only two ways I know of
    it's possible your other post got a bit glitched or something
    There is no 'delete' for me in quick reply either.... Weird...
    " I am death and sorrow." -Acheron



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  25. #175
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    Gundam 00 is my favorite anime. I don't understand how:
    1. You can post stuff so unrelated to Code Geass in the Code Geass subforum. If anything, post a topic saying "Was Allelujah wrong to kill the children in the lab?" in the Gundam boards.
    Somebody recommended, possibly maliciously, that if I was so upset by the violence in Code Geass I go watch Gundam 00 because nobody got killed in it. And I responded that the first time that I had turned into it I sw the scene where one of the protagonists blew up a lab full of children and thus I had no desire to ever watch it again. That has started the discussion.

    How can you propose discussing "Was Allelujah wrong to kill the children in the lab?" as if that could possibly be justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    2. How you can rule that they're evil without even seeing the show.
    I quote from my post # 172 :
    Quote Originally Posted by SakuraFox512 View Post
    One thing proEuphie -- don't try to judge any aspect of a shown you haven't even watched (or try to explain things in a show you didn't watch fully *cough*CG*cough*)
    I saw Allelujah/Hallelujah blow up a building with children in it. And nobody who has commented about those actions has ever said that the children were about to test a new long-range super weapon by blowing up cities full of people, or that there was any other urgent need to blow up the building right then. Nobody who commented said that it would have been impossible to take the time to evacuate the children before enemy reinforcements arrived. Celestial being could have taken the time to come up with a plan to destroy the lab without killing the Children.

    When I was about ten or twelve I read how King John of England personally killed his young nephew Arthur (of course it is not certain that the story is true, but Arthur did disappear from the record while John's prisoner and was soon believed to have been killed by John or by his orders). Right then and there I decided that King John was an evil man. Even if he might have done a lot of good in his life, even if he somehow managed to do good in every other moment of his life, killing Arthur or having him killed was far to evil to ever be atoned for. I have never ever had the slightest degree of sympathy for John or any desire that anything good should ever happen to him.

    You may say that it is wrong to judge a man by one incident and not read entire biographies of his life to get a full picture, but I say that unless John miracously revived at least two kids from death he could never have done enough good to over balance murdering his prisoner Arthur. And recently I have had my unfavorable view of John confirmed by reading of another incident in with John killed not just one kid but many.

    When I was a kid I read how the Frankish king Clothaire I had his rebellious son Chramm locked up in a hut with his mistresses and burned the hut down. And long ago I read that he murdered his young nephews and I have always since despised and loathed him as an evil murderer of children. And you might suppose that it is wrong to judge a man by just one incident in his life. But recently I have learned of another, even eviler, crime committed by "Loath-ar". The book that told how Chramm was burned in the hut with his mistresses was incorrect. The true story can be found in my post # 64 above, "Lelouch's Love?", and confirms my initial view of Clothair I as a horrible, child-murdering, monster.

    In my experience reading about even one murder committed by someone is enough to form an accurate opinion that they are evil and not worthy of sympathy or audience identification.

    It is possible that if I traveled back in time to the reign of King John I might become his ally to fight to prevent a greater evil than any of the evils which he committed (and try to use any influence which I might get with him to persuade him not to kill any children). But I would never confuse allying with John for the greater good with the idea that he was not a monster of evil or that he did not deserve to die far sooner than my alliance with him permitted me to kill him.

    It is possible that if I went back in time to the reign of Clothair I (which he turned into a really black time in the Dark Ages) I might become his ally against against some greater evil (like possibly an invasion by meat-eating aliens who wanted to turn Humans into food). But even if I prevented him from killing any children, I would never think that a person capable of such crimes was a good man or deserved any sympathy or respect or even deserved to live.

    It is possible that the goal of Celestial Being was so much better than the goal of their enemies, and their methods were so much less evil than the methods of their enemies that if I was in the world of Gundam 00 I would choose to fight as an ally of Celestial Being, judging that their victory would result in a less evil world (not a good world, but a less evil one) than the victory of their enemies.

    But even if blowing up the children in episode 11 was the only evil thing that Celestial Being ever did, I would never confuse the concept that victory for Celestial Being would be less of disaster for the world than victory for their enemies with the idea that any member of Celestial being was good enough to deserve even the least little bit of sympathy or love or respect, or with the idea that any member of Celestial Being deserved to live.


    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    3. Why you are so self righteous.
    Because all my life I have seen people be annoying, or harsh, or cruel, or mean, or evil, in situations where I would feel no desire to act in that way, when it seemed pointless to me. Because I read about evil deeds in the history books and the news all the time. Because I know my own occasional evil desires, and see that other people have much stronger evil desires. Because I am depressed by the belief that everyone else in the world is even worse than me.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXPainful SmilexX View Post
    4. Don't care who you offend when you say crap. Saying the members of Celestial Being were evil made me feel as though a knife cut into my heart. After everything they sacrificed for a world that not only betrayed them, but rejected them too, is completely ridiculous.
    I did not say crap, much though it may pain you to think that my words might possibly be a well considered and accurate judgment.

    I don't care how much the members of Celestial Being sacrificed for the world.
    I don't care how much the German military sacrificed to create a Jew-free world in World War II.
    I don't care how much the 911 plotters sacrificed to rid the world of the evils of people like you and me.
    I don't care how much the members of the Imperial Japanese military sacrificed to bring all the world under the rule of their divine Emperor as required by the gods.
    I don't care how much the Mongol hordes sacrificed to bring all the world under one rule as demanded by the sky god.
    I don't care how much the members of the allied military sacrificed to save the world from the Germans and the Japanese in World war II.

    I don't care (in this discussion) how good or evil the causes that those historical groups (and one fictional group) served were. I don't care how correct or wrong their beliefs and goals were.

    Because each of those groups used methods that were too evil, even in the best case, to be justified even if their goals were ten times as good as they believed them to be.

    A victory for any of those historical groups would be a poisoned legacy for future generations who believed that they had saved the world. Everyone in future centuries and ages who wanted to save the world (no matter how good or evil his cause actually was) would believe that it would alright to commit all kinds of war crimes while saving the world as those earlier saviors had.

    And the same for fictional groups like Celestial Being. Stories in which the protagonists commit crimes and atrocities while saving the world can only suggest to those who watch them that it is right to commit atrocities while saving the world.

    So your deep emotional attachment to the members of Celestial Being fills me with apprehension for the future.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 02-21-2010 at 12:13 AM.

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