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Thread: *SPOILERS* The shot that killed My Love for Anime

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    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Default *SPOILERS* The shot that killed My Love for Anime

    Yesterday was the first anniversary of a date that will live in infamy. October 12, 2008, the first US airing of episode 23, and what I think is one of the most evil and senseless murders ever shown on television.

    This thread is to discuss Euphemia's murder, since a lot of people say that I discuss it too much in other forums.
    Last edited by Aku no Hikari; 12-06-2010 at 05:19 PM. Reason: removed the spoiler from the title; used the new title OP tried to use for his/her post

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    umm well good for that.

    To put it bluntly I think you should really be calling it Euphies killing.
    Euphemia wasn't murdered in the traditional sense of the word (Dictionary defines it as "The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice" whereas killing ("to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay") is more appropriate since there is no law against a soldier killing an enemy combatant in a time of war)

    Now you may argue that The Euphie wasn't a combatant however at the time she fell under the definition of such "a person or group that fights" which clearly fits Euphemia at the time. (She also fits the definition of Officer (See next paragraph) or Commander ("the commissioned Officer in command of a military unit")

    Now you may say that Lelouch is not a soldier however he clearly holds to the definition of an officer "a person who holds a position of rank or authority in the army, navy, air force, or any similar organization, esp. one who holds a commission" so that is clear as well. (Hey if you even think about it didn't Euphemia technically hold a commission in the Brittanian army making her by definition an enemy officer?)

    You are now left debating whether or not one fighter (or in this case officer) should kill anouther in a time of war which has a pretty self evident answer if you ask me although the Morality of war is still up for debate.

    The idea of murder however simply falls apart
    Last edited by MangaFanGuy; 10-13-2009 at 05:56 AM. Reason: soooo many edits for things I missed

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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Yesterday was the first anniversary of a date that will live in infamy. October 12, 2008, the first US airing of episode 23, and what I think is one of the most evil and senseless murders ever shown on television.

    This thread is to discuss Euphemia's murder, since a lot of people say that I discuss it too much in other forums.
    Really? How about the Jewish Holocaust, Kennedy's Assasination, Islamic public executions, and The Columbine Shooting they were pretty bad, but I guess Euphy had the worst huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Yesterday was the first anniversary of a date that will live in infamy. October 12, 2008, the first US airing of episode 23, and what I think is one of the most evil and senseless murders ever shown on television.

    This thread is to discuss Euphemia's murder, since a lot of people say that I discuss it too much in other forums.
    Technically, the date that would live in "infamy" (get a grip) would be March 27, 2007, as that was the Japanese airing (and therefore the first one) of that episode. It is kinda pointless to simply mourn the date that you found out about her death, rather than the date when she died. But I digress...

    Oh and lets have Euphemia's death (and just HER death) live in infamy, and have HER death be "one of the most evil and senseless murders ever shown on television", rather than the day she ran around committing genocide, slaughtering Japanese like a bully to an anthill. Yeah, that never happened, so let's ignore that, as that is obviously not nearly as sad and evil as the death of the crazed pseudo-pacifistic girl who killed them.

    In fact, let's ignore the fact that we are putting the death of a cartoon character into the same category as some of the worst tragedies to hit humanity.

    As you see (if you haven't figured it out), Euphemia's death didn't really bother me and still doesn't. I have watched Bandai long enough to figure that the sweet ones either:
    1. Become the girlfriend of the main character; arranges peace
    2. Die (whether they accomplish the above or not)

    Euphemia did both, as would be expected of Bandai. Hell, Euphemia's NAME alone told me that she was going to die, so I was really not surprised when she did (as I have told you, Bandai is really good at coming up with meaningful names for characters).

    STORY TIME!!:

    For those who do not know, in the Catholic Church, Euphemia ("Saint Euphemia" or "Great-martyr Euphemia" or "All-praised") was found in a secret house worshiping the Christian God against the orders of the governor that all inhabitants worship Ares. She was tortured (severely) and (its believed) died after being attacked and mauled by a bear (or lion) in the arena.

    For her martyrdom, was later made into a saint. She even has her own feast on September 16.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    Really? How about the Jewish Holocaust, Kennedy's Assasination, Islamic public executions, and The Columbine Shooting they were pretty bad, but I guess Euphy had the worst huh?

    I was going to say the exact same thing!


    For those who do not know, in the Catholic Church, Euphemia ("Saint Euphemia" or "Great-martyr Euphemia" or "All-praised") was found in a secret house worshiping the Christian God against the orders of the governor that all inhabitants worship Ares. She was tortured (severely) and (its believed) died after being attacked and mauled by a bear (or lion) in the arena.

    For her martyrdom, was later made into a saint. She even has her own feast on September 16.
    Really? I didn't know that. Cool.
    Last edited by kimi no kioku; 10-16-2009 at 06:57 AM.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    umm well good for that.

    To put it bluntly I think you should really be calling it Euphies killing.
    Euphemia wasn't murdered in the traditional sense of the word (Dictionary defines it as "The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice" whereas killing ("to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay") is more appropriate since there is no law against a soldier killing an enemy combatant in a time of war)

    Now you may argue that The Euphie wasn't a combatant however at the time she fell under the definition of such "a person or group that fights" which clearly fits Euphemia at the time. (She also fits the definition of Officer (See next paragraph) or Commander ("the commissioned Officer in command of a military unit")

    Now you may say that Lelouch is not a soldier however he clearly holds to the definition of an officer "a person who holds a position of rank or authority in the army, navy, air force, or any similar organization, esp. one who holds a commission" so that is clear as well. (Hey if you even think about it didn't Euphemia technically hold a commission in the Brittanian army making her by definition an enemy officer?)

    You are now left debating whether or not one fighter (or in this case officer) should kill anouther in a time of war which has a pretty self evident answer if you ask me although the Morality of war is still up for debate.

    The idea of murder however simply falls apart
    I say that it is always murder to kill somebody who loves and trusts you and does not suspect that you are hostile to her. I say that it is always murder to kill someone you can capture as easy as you can kill them. It is always murder to kill someone who will be as safe for other people if captured as if dead. I say that it is always murder to target a specific individual for killing if all of your lawful purposes can be achieved just as well by capturing her.

    You may think that every single member of the enemy armed forces is lawful fair game and you can kill them anywhere and and anyway and for any reason that you want. But real military people have been tried and executed for killing people who were members of hostile armed forces.

    I doubt that Euphemia was technically commissioned as member of the Britannian armed forces. I think she commanded due to being a member of the Imperial family. And at Fuji she was fighting due to a geass command which Lelouch knew had been used on her. And she did not suspect that Lelouch was hostile to her. It is a war crime to attack enemies who do not know there is a state of war.

    In my "mecha Ethics" example Shinji Ikari is being tried for the murder of an enemy officer. I don''t see how anyone could vote to acquit him or Lelouch.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 10-17-2009 at 09:37 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    Really? How about the Jewish Holocaust, Kennedy's Assasination, Islamic public executions, and The Columbine Shooting they were pretty bad, but I guess Euphy had the worst huh?
    Okay, it was among the worst FICTIONAL murders ever shown on television. (And you may have seen documentaries of the holocaust, but have you ever seen film of the actually killings?)

  8. #8
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Technically, the date that would live in "infamy" (get a grip) would be March 27, 2007, as that was the Japanese airing (and therefore the first one) of that episode. It is kinda pointless to simply mourn the date that you found out about her death, rather than the date when she died. But I digress...

    Oh and lets have Euphemia's death (and just HER death) live in infamy, and have HER death be "one of the most evil and senseless murders ever shown on television", rather than the day she ran around committing genocide, slaughtering Japanese like a bully to an anthill. Yeah, that never happened, so let's ignore that, as that is obviously not nearly as sad and evil as the death of the crazed pseudo-pacifistic girl who killed them.

    In fact, let's ignore the fact that we are putting the death of a cartoon character into the same category as some of the worst tragedies to hit humanity.

    As you see (if you haven't figured it out), Euphemia's death didn't really bother me and still doesn't. I have watched Bandai long enough to figure that the sweet ones either:
    1. Become the girlfriend of the main character; arranges peace
    2. Die (whether they accomplish the above or not)

    Euphemia did both, as would be expected of Bandai. Hell, Euphemia's NAME alone told me that she was going to die, so I was really not surprised when she did (as I have told you, Bandai is really good at coming up with meaningful names for characters).

    STORY TIME!!:

    For those who do not know, in the Catholic Church, Euphemia ("Saint Euphemia" or "Great-martyr Euphemia" or "All-praised") was found in a secret house worshiping the Christian God against the orders of the governor that all inhabitants worship Ares. She was tortured (severely) and (its believed) died after being attacked and mauled by a bear (or lion) in the arena.

    For her martyrdom, was later made into a saint. She even has her own feast on September 16.
    Technically the real date Euphemia died is not Oct. 12, 2008, or March 27, 2007, but an unknown date in Britannian year 2017 which is an unknown number of years before or after 2017 AD.

    I say the Fuji massacre was not senseless on Euphemia's part. She was given a command no human could resist, she resisted it for while, and then she obeyed it. She had the most sensible reason in the world for doing something. She couldn't help herself unless she displayed superhuman abilities. She struggled more than any person ordered to kill himself ever did.

    Euphemia was clearly innocent by reason of insanity or demonic possession or mind control or hypnosis.

    (So why do you keep calling Euphemia crazy or insane in a way which makes it seem like that makes her more guilty instead of less guilty? Why you you use insanity as a insult, as if being insane was a crime?)

    Thus the Japanese people she personally shot and ordered killed were not murdered by Euphemia. They were victims of the accidental geass command.

    Thus their deaths were not a bunch of evil, senseless, murders, in so far as Euphemia shooting them or ordering them killed goes. They were simply a terrible accident like a mine cave in, a ship sinking, a city destroyed by a fire, a tsunami hitting a coastline, etc. etc. We have all seen countless examples of such accidents on television.

    As far as Euphemia is concerned their deaths were purely a terrible accident and not evil, senseless, murders. And as such they do not have to live in infamy.

    Since Lelouch previously planned to make Euphemia shoot him and start a riot in which hundreds or thousands of Japanese would be tricked into dying for his cause, he was planning to murder everyone who would be killed in the riot he planned. Lelouch told Euphie he was planing to make her shoot him. After he gave up his plan Euphie asked him if he could have made her shoot him, and he gave her the fatal command. Thus the accidental command to kill was given as a result of Lelouch's earlier plan to murder thousands. Thus legally Lelouch was infinitely more guilty of murder than Euphemia.

    The Britannian soldiers who obeyed the order to massacre clearly did have control of their actions and were guilty.

    Thus the Japanese deaths were a bunch of evil, senseless, murders on the part of the Britannian soldiers. And if our world has less violent television they would live in infamy. But we have all seen dozens of massacres and slaughters on television.

    But when I suggested that some of the obviously guilty soldiers should be used up in an attempt to cure Euphemia you acted like I had no regard for human life.

    Perhaps you object because the Britannian soldiers in my suggestion would have already been prisoners. Euphemia was helpless against Lelouch with his two powerful war robots. She was not technically Lelouch's prisoner but she was extremely close to being his prisoner. He could just reach down with a robot hand, pick her up, pull any weapons out of her hands, and she was his prisoner.

    Euphemia had a machine gun, but Lelouch left the safety of his armored vehicle to walk past her, turn around and shoot her without warning. If he dared to do that he could have captured her just safely as he killed her.

    Capturing Euphemia would have protected the Japanese just as well as killing her. Capturing her would have been just as safe as killing her.

    Thus killing her was murder.

    I say that the killing of Euphemia was one of the worst (fictional) murders (of a single individual) ever shown on television because the episode shows that it was totally optional on Lelouch's part, that he had absolutely no good and decent reason to kill her that capturing her alive would not do just as well, and that it would have been fantastically easy for him to capture her alive.

    Also the age of the victim is one of the main factors which makes one murder worse than another. Euphemia was only 16 and younger than most though not all the victims of the massacre (which was a terrible crime on the part of the Britannian soldiers and maybe on the part of Lelouch, but not a crime on Euphemia's part).

    And the goodness and innocence of the victim is another main factor which makes one murder worse than other. And Euphemia was clearly extremely good and innocent, thus making her murder much worse.

    You keep saying that Euphemia was just a cartoon character. But I say that the evilness of the concept or idea of a fictional murder murder is just as evil as the evilness of the concept or idea of an identical real murder would be.

    And you say that the murder of Euphemia was predictable. But I have not watched as much anime as you have and rarely kept track of the various companies which make them. So I was surprised and shocked. Besides I say that fictional actions are just as evil in concept or idea as identical actions in the real world would be. If you hear about some terrible historical or contemporary crime do you just shrug it off, saying that the god or gods which control destiny always come up with evil plots for life so this evil deed is no surprise?
    Last edited by proEuphie; 12-02-2009 at 10:40 PM.

  9. #9
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    Who really cares? It was just a tv show. If it matters, I played a game where a seven year old(The MC's sister) gets murdered. That was worse to me.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimi no kioku View Post
    Who really cares? It was just a tv show. If it matters, I played a game where a seven year old(The MC's sister) gets murdered. That was worse to me.
    Yes, but countless thousands of fans seem to have cried instead of cheering when Lelouch died. Did anyone cry when the killer of the seven-year-old in the game died?

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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Yes, but countless thousands of fans seem to have cried instead of cheering when Lelouch died. Did anyone cry when the killer of the seven-year-old in the game died?

    I know. I cried when Euphy died. I think you're sick if you cheer when Lulu dies. The killer doesn't die(He gets arrested), and he was actually popular. We cry because it's said, but it doesn't really matter. I mean, I felt sad after all that stuff, but it doesn't really effect anything. I cry any time a character dies. Except the kid in Blood Plus, I laughed.

    I do have one thing that pisses me off about her death. Did the doctors even try to save her, doesn't look like it. My uncle got shot around that spot, and he lived. She was consious when Suzaku grabbed her and if her lung had collapsed, she wouldn't have talked to Suzaku.
    Last edited by kimi no kioku; 10-17-2009 at 01:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I say that it is always murder to kill somebody who loves and trusts you and does not suspect that you are hostile to her.
    Depends on the situation
    Depends on her and me and all the events leading up to me wanting to kill her.
    In this case if i was in Lelouchs place I would probably kill her too.
    Why?
    Cos I see the necessity in such an act.
    Does that mean I enjoyed it? No
    Does that mean I won't regret it? No
    I say that it is always murder to kill someone you can capture as easy as you can kill them. It is always murder to kill someone who will be as safe for other people if captured as if dead. I say that it is always murder to target a specific individual for killing if all of your lawful purposes can be achieved just as well by capturing her.
    Ok I have said this in other threads on this subject.
    It isn't black and white "oh he could have captured her"
    There were personal, political, strategic factors at work in the whole thing.
    Strategically and politically capturing the most popular member of the royal family would have been a huge PR bonus for the Brittanians and given them something to make Lelouch look bad.
    Now it also begs the question.
    He captures her and does what with her?
    Lock her up for the rest of her life?
    Sit her in a prison cell to think about the massacre she perpetrated?
    Have her try to kill her guards at every turn (As she would most likely be guarded by Japanese)?
    You may think that every single member of the enemy armed forces is lawful fair game and you can kill them anywhere and and anyway and for any reason that you want. But real military people have been tried and executed for killing people who were members of hostile armed forces.
    Not for something like this.
    They are often tried and executed for doing things that are heinous and disgusting (Like shooting a surrendered soldier).
    Not simply shooting an enemy soldier.
    I doubt that Euphemia was technically commissioned as member of the Britannian armed forces. I think she commanded due to being a member of the Imperial family.
    At the battle of Narita was she not the commander of the brittanian reserve forces?
    At the Battle of Fuji was she not the commanding officer of the Brittanian forces?
    Regardless of the fact that she was a member of the Royal family it stands that she was the commander of the Brittanian forces (And even took an active combatant role in the fighting0
    And at Fuji she was fighting due to a geass command which Lelouch knew had been used on her. And she did not suspect that Lelouch was hostile to her. It is a war crime to attack enemies who do not know there is a state of war.
    it is a war crime.
    However beginning hostilities with the massacre of a stadium full of civilians would make her the criminal would it not?
    leading them to the stadium under the guise of peace before killing them would moot any claim to not knowing about a state of war that she perpetrated.
    In my "mecha Ethics" example Shink Ikari is being tried for the murder of any enemy officer. I don''t see how anyone could vote to acquit him or Lelouch.
    You could simply cos of lack of any real evidence to convict.

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    All of the previous arguments seem to make the assumption that Lelouch intended to kill Euphemia. In fact, when Lelouch uses his Geass on Euphemia, it was pretty clearly unintentional. Afterward, he kills her to prevent her from killing any more innocent civilians. I don't see how this is murder at all. It's certainly tragic, but it wasn't preconceived. If there was any way for Lelouch to undo his Geass, he probably would have. He loved Euphemia, and her death was just as tragic for his as it was for anyone else, if not more. Also, this is fiction we are talking about, so I think some of us need to chill out a bit...

  14. #14
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimi no kioku View Post
    I know. I cried when Euphy died. I think you're sick if you cheer when Lulu dies. The killer doesn't die(He gets arrested), and he was actually popular. We cry because it's said, but it doesn't really matter. I mean, I felt sad after all that stuff, but it doesn't really effect anything. I cry any time a character dies. Except the kid in Blood Plus, I laughed.

    I do have one thing that pisses me off about her death. Did the doctors even try to save her, doesn't look like it. My uncle got shot around that spot, and he lived. She was conscious when Suzaku grabbed her and if her lung had collapsed, she wouldn't have talked to Suzaku.
    No, it wouldn't be sick to cheer when Lelouch died. And don't say that he did a lot of good things. He could have done all those things without murdering Euphemia and without ordering the geass directorate massacre.. Doing those two acts of unnecessary and obvious evil makes Lelouch just as evil as any villain whose death you have ever cheered at even if he is o therwise a nobel hero.

    If you have never cheered at any villains death then maybe you can say that people who cheer for the death of the villain and/or hero Lelouch are different than you but you should not go so far as to say they are sick.

    Anyway, I hear that the death of Lelouch was nothing to cheer about. It is depressing to think that someone who did things as terrible as killing Euphemia for no logical reason and ordering the geass directorate massacre was so clever than none of his enemies could kill him and and no court could bring hims to justice and finally he had to plan his own death. And any one who does such evil things, even if mixed in with good deeds, should be tried and sentenced to death and be dragged screaming and begging for mercy to his execution.

    I say anyone who cried at Lelouch's death merely because they got to know him for 25 hours and saw only his good side at first and got suckered into thinking that he was good enough to like and to be a protagonist makes me depressed.

    Actually it is not too surprising that Euphie died if shot somewhere in the torso which is packed with vital organs. -- it is really surprising that so many really evil characters that I wouldn't mind seeing die survived so much worse. Perhaps the doctors did just pretend to try to save her. I think real doctors would have kept working on her right up to the end trying desperately to save her life and she would never have had her dying scene with Suzaku -- or it would have been a lot less private.

    I thought I heard one doctor tell another that it was hopeless. But perhaps it was not the truth but part of their plan. If so, I can only hope that the plan was also to fake Euphemia's death for some reason and that she would resurface sometime after the end of the series.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 10-21-2009 at 11:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CerebralDivinity View Post
    All of the previous arguments seem to make the assumption that Lelouch intended to kill Euphemia. In fact, when Lelouch uses his Geass on Euphemia, it was pretty clearly unintentional. Afterward, he kills her to prevent her from killing any more innocent civilians. I don't see how this is murder at all. It's certainly tragic, but it wasn't preconceived. If there was any way for Lelouch to undo his Geass, he probably would have. He loved Euphemia, and her death was just as tragic for his as it was for anyone else, if not more. Also, this is fiction we are talking about, so I think some of us need to chill out a bit...
    When Lelouch came to the meeting he was planning to use a geass command on Euphemia to trick thousands of Japanese into dying for his cause, starting a riot. I think that Lelouch's plans drastically increased the probability that Euphemia would be killed that day. And they probably would have resulted in approximately as many Japanese deaths in the stadium as in the actual massacre..

    No matter how accidental the geass command was, the killing of Euphemia was not accidental. It was intentional.

    If Euphemia was locked up she would be about as likely to kill another Japanese in the future as any innocent Japanese child was likely to grow up to murder another Japanese person - very unlikely.

    Capturing Euphemia and killing her would be equally effective in saving the Japanese from Euphemia. And capturing Euphemia would be a lot better for her.

    Capturing Euphemia by picking her up in a giant robot hand would have been even safer for Lelouch than walking up to her when she held a machine gun and suddenly shooting her.

    By all standards of protecting the Japanese, risking his own life as little as possible, and doing what was best for Euphemia, who was a another victim in the situation, capturing her was far better than killing her.

    So Lelouch chose to kill her. That makes it murder.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 10-21-2009 at 11:06 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    No, it wouldn't be sick to cheer when Lelouch died. And don't say that he did a lot of good things. He could have done all those things withoutaa murdering Euphemia and without ordering the geass directorate massacre.. Doing those two acts of unnecessary and obvious evil makes Lelouch just as evil as any villian whose death you have ever cheered at even if he is o therwise a nobel hero.
    OH MY GOD. You are insane. To cheer for someone's death is just too cruel. Besides you said you stopped watching Code Geass(Another fact that proves you DID WATCH THAT), So how do you know how Lelouch died or so, without seeing it with your own eyes? Again here comes your LOVELY FAVORITE FABULOUS FANTASTIC VICTIM EUPHEMIA and makes Lelouch a Villain. Actually I wasn't pitying Lelouch before, but I'm really pitying him now, for making an enemy called "ProEuphie"... Lelouch... run from her...

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I say anyone who cried at Lelouch's death merely because they got to know him for 25 hours and saw only his good side at first and got suckered into thinking that he was good enough to like and to be a protagonist makes me depressed.
    Since you didn't saw R2 that makes you know him for 10 hours or less. BUT THAT MEANS YOU CAN JUDGE HIM IN EVERY THREAD AND IN EVERY MOMENT OF YOUR LIFE, RIGHT?
    We did see not only his good side, we saw an evil side of him too. But since you are so simple-minded and you can only think about Euphemia, you'll never understand why we like Lelouch. That makes me depressed!

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I thought I heard one doctor tell another that it was hopeless. But perhaps it was not the truth but part of their plan. If so, I can only hope that the plan was also to fake Euphemia's death for some reason and that she would resurface sometime after the end of the series.
    Oh my god(the second time). You did expect her to come back? . Plan, fake Euphemia's death? Why the hell do they need to fake her death if she was just a "victim" minor character and she would have never done anything bad later. There was no need for that. Since you never really created a story or manga or anime, you'll never know. You won't understand that writers don't really care about such a things and that they are using characters as a "tools" to make an event happen? You won't understand that, right? I think your nickname should be "ObsessedWithEuphemia" or "I'mInLoveWithEuphemia". Oh. Maybe that was too long for you?

    Since you flood in my threads, so why not flood in yours? That was just the start, because you'll always find something that will make Lelouch a Villain and we'll need to try to convince you into the opposite thing. So that's a never-ending circle.
    It is stupid to be afraid to die, but the most stupid thing is to be afraid to live.

  17. #17
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I say that it is always murder to kill somebody who loves and trusts you and does not suspect that you are hostile to her. I say that it is always murder to kill someone you can capture as easy as you can kill them. It is always murder to kill someone who will be as safe for other people if captured as if dead. I say that it is always murder to target a specific individual for killing if all of your lawful purposes can be achieved just as well by capturing her.
    Oooooookay, however, YOUR definition of murder is not the definition used in a court of law. Therefore, it pretty much means nothing as far as the law is concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You may think that every single member of the enemy armed forces is lawful fair game and you can kill them anywhere and and anyway and for any reason that you want. But real military people have been tried and executed for killing people who were members of hostile armed forces.
    True, but there were underlying reasons as to WHY they were tried in the first place (using a tank to kill single person, using poison, abusing the truce, etc). Military personnel ("Military people"? Honestly) do not get in trouble for simply killing enemies, since that is what happens during war: the death of enemies (and even allies). The Hague Convention does give some prohibitions on what a soldier can do when fighting the enemy, but there are only so many of them (the rest of the prohibitions are in specific treaties). So far, barely any of your examples have been violations of the laws of war.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I doubt that Euphemia was technically commissioned as member of the Britannian armed forces. I think she commanded due to being a member of the Imperial family. And at Fuji she was fighting due to a geass command which Lelouch knew had been used on her. And she did not suspect that Lelouch was hostile to her. It is a war crime to attack enemies who do not know there is a state of war.
    Euphemia COULD command as a member of the Imperial family, but her sister's authority trumps hers. Both civilians and military personnel must obey Euphemia as a princess; this alone does not make her a trained commander like her sister (forget not being "technically" commissioned; she wasn't in the military AT ALL; Cornelia, however, was). In fact, Euphemia had never left Pendragon until right before she appeared in the series.

    Wow, you think you know what you talking about, don't you? As I have pointed out, using real-world applications on a fictional universe does not really work and doesn't prove anything (other than the fact that you really have no life). While the intention of war most be stated (I'll play your game for a moment), it only has to be stated to the nation in question. Whether or not the people actually KNOW about the war is a different story. Commanding officers are advised to notify civilians of the conflict, but not truly required. Don't you think that I, as a member of military, would already know this and certainly know it better than you?

    In the case of Euphemia, since Japan and Britannia were in the conflict, they were the only parties that needed to know anything. It doesn't matter whether or not Euphemia actually KNEW that Lelouch was a threat.

    Of course, since she was armed at the time and a member of a belligerent force, her death was not a war crime; she needs to either be unarmed or have surrendered for that to happen (her not knowing that Lelouch was a threat is actually irrelevant). Tragic, yes, but (in our world) not a war crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    In my "mecha Ethics" example Shinji Ikari is being tried for the murder of an enemy officer. I don''t see how anyone could vote to acquit him or Lelouch.
    Well, like I have said, the real laws of war do not (and CAN NOT) be applied to the fictional world of Code Geass. In YOUR example, Shinji Ikari was being tried for the "murder" of an enemy officer, however, that is only because killing an enemy officer is punishable by in YOUR world. In the REAL world, that is not true (and as I pointed out in that thread, he would be guilty of insubordination, not murder).

    In Code Geass, Lelouch killing Euphemia may or may not be a war crime; like I said, laws of war in the real world can't truly be applied to the series (the laws are not even stated). In our world, it wouldn't be (and I have already given the reasons as to why). In the world of Code Geass....its anyone's guess.

    Of course, we can't "acquit" Lelouch since, well, he's dead (and not real...something that you seem to be forgetting). No point in even bringing that up.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 10-18-2009 at 10:16 PM.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcePriestess View Post
    OH MY GOD. You are insane. To cheer for someone's death is just too cruel. Besides you said you stopped watching Code Geass(Another fact that proves you DID WATCH THAT), So how do you know how Lelouch died or so, without seeing it with your own eyes? Again here comes your LOVELY FAVORITE FABULOUS FANTASTIC VICTIM EUPHEMIA and makes Lelouch a Villain. Actually I wasn't pitying Lelouch before, but I'm really pitying him now, for making an enemy called "ProEuphie"... Lelouch... run from her...
    I did not say that I cheered for Lelouch's death, which I didn't see, and which I hear was far too low key to cheer about for a character who had committed a terrible murder and ordered a terrible massacre (without being controlled by a geass).

    But I have learned about it the same way you learned about the US Civil war or the Roman Empire or anything else which you did not personally witness, by reading. I have read a few references to it here and there on the internet, despite my lack of interest in the second season storyline as a whole.

    If you have never cheered at the death of a movie villain with the rest of the audience, fine for you. There are a lot of action movies where the villains death is obviously designed to get cheers from the bloodthirsty audience. I never cheer at anything in movies or tv because I am very quiet.


    Quote Originally Posted by IcePriestess View Post
    Since you didn't saw R2 that makes you know him for 10 hours or less. BUT THAT MEANS YOU CAN JUDGE HIM IN EVERY THREAD AND IN EVERY MOMENT OF YOUR LIFE, RIGHT?
    We did see not only his good side, we saw an evil side of him too. But since you are so simple-minded and you can only think about Euphemia, you'll never understand why we like Lelouch. That makes me depressed
    Everyone has an evil side. But most people don't do even one thing which they know that society considers evil. Ofourse that means that most people can and sometimes do things with their society considers to be nonevil or even good and which you or I might consider to be terriblly evil.

    Someone who willingly does even one evil thing is classified as an evil person by me. Of course, some people do things which would normally be considered evil because they are forced by circumstances to do do. Shipwrecked sailors who eat their dead companions to survive are not considered to be evil like a willing cannibal and murderer like Hannibal Lecter is considered to be evil.

    Lelouch was not forced by circumstances or a geass command or demonic possession to murder Euphemia or to order the gess directorate massacre. Therefore those two terrible deeds outweigh a hundred, or a hundred million, good and noble and heroic deeds he might have done in his life. Because those two evil deeds were voluntary on his part. He chose to kill when he did not have to.

    And therefore he does not deserve any empathy from the viewers.

    If someone you knew for many years and spent thousands of days total time with and loved was suddenly proved to a murderer, it would be normal for you to keep on loving him -- perhaps to a much reduced degree -- despite that knowledge.

    But Lelouch is just a cartoon character you have seen for a mere fifty hours (not counting rewatchings) and so you should be able to easily break free of the much lighter conditioning to like him that you have been though and see that he has ruined and spoiled all his good qualities with a few voluntary actions which are obviously evil.

    I curse myself for not being able to do so earlier than I did.

    And the fact that it is taking you even longer is something I find depressing.

    Quote Originally Posted by IcePriestess View Post
    Oh my god(the second time). You did expect her to come back? . Plan, fake Euphemia's death? Why the hell do they need to fake her death if she was just a "victim" minor character and she would have never done anything bad later. There was no need for that. Since you never really created a story or manga or anime, you'll never know. You won't understand that writers don't really care about such a things and that they are using characters as a "tools" to make an event happen? You won't understand that, right? I think your nickname should be "ObsessedWithEuphemia" or "I'mInLoveWithEuphemia". Oh. Maybe that was too long for you?

    Since you flood in my threads, so why not flood in yours? That was just the start, because you'll always find something that will make Lelouch a Villain and we'll need to try to convince you into the opposite thing. So that's a never-ending circle.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 12-03-2009 at 10:35 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    When Lelouch came to the meeting he was planning to use a geass command on Euphemia to trick thousands of Japanese into dying for his cause, starting a riot.
    How can you assume this to be true? Randomly asserting things is not the same as actually illustrating them to be true. How can you possibly say that you knew the exact intentions of an imaginary character from a work of fiction that you didn't write? And this is with all of the evidence showing the exact opposite. Lelouch clearly used his geass by accident. I can't see how you can POSSIBLY disagree with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    No matter how accidental the geass command was, the killing of Euphemia was not accidental. It wa was delibert.
    Are you familiar with Of Mice and Men, by John Steinbeck? It's a very very similar case here.

    What you seem to not understand is that Lelouch killing Euphemia was probably for the best. If she lived, she would have been (as far as anyone could logically guess based on what details about geass had been revealed at that point) under the control of the geass he put on her for the rest of her life.

    What good would have come from capturing her? That would have most likely provoked Britannia into an all-out offensive to reclaim her, which would have been bad for everyone (more pointless casualties on both sides). Alternatively, or if thereafter, Britannia recovers Euphemia, only to find that she has an insane obsession to kill the Japanese, they'll probably dispose of her themselves at best, or conduct tests on her at worst.

    There's really not much of a choice here for Lelouch, if you think logically about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So Lelouch chose to kill her. That makes it murder.
    This type of thinking is altogether way too simplistic for this situation. It's like saying that anyone who cuts a person with a knife is bad, therefore doctors are bad. I know that's not a perfect analogy, but is there really much difference between letting a person who has lost their free will live, and killing them to avoid them further harming themselves and others? Honestly, I have to say that Lelouch probably made the better choice.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    When Lelouch came to the meeting he was planning to use a geass command on Euphemia to trick thousands of Japanese into dying for his cause, starting a riot. I think that Lelouch's plans drastically increased the probability that Euphemia would be killed that day. And they probably would have resulted in approximately as many Japanese deaths in the stadium as in the actual massacre..

    No matter how accidental the geass command was, the killing of Euphemia was not accidental. It wa was delibert.
    You are so very wrong.

    Lelouch even agreed to the establishment of the Special Administrative Zone, and it would've ended there if his Geass didn't attach itself permanently to his eye. His saying that he could order Euphie to murder tens of thousands of Japanese was merely a hypothetical illustration of his power and Euphie's inability to act against it. He didn't mean to take it LITERALLY.

    Please, rewatch the series.
    .::ANIME is DOPAMINE to me::.

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  21. #21
    Senior Member Megamind's Minion has a reputation beyond repute Megamind's Minion has a reputation beyond repute Megamind's Minion has a reputation beyond repute Megamind's Minion has a reputation beyond repute Megamind's Minion has a reputation beyond repute Megamind's Minion has a reputation beyond repute Megamind's Minion has a reputation beyond repute Megamind's Minion has a reputation beyond repute Megamind's Minion has a reputation beyond repute Megamind's Minion has a reputation beyond repute Megamind's Minion has a reputation beyond repute Megamind's Minion's Avatar
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    When Lelouch came to the meeting he was planning to use a geass command on Euphemia to trick thousands of Japanese into dying for his cause, starting a riot.
    this is not true..
    he may be planning to use the geass but it was not on euphy..
    he loved her too much to do that...

    No matter how accidental the geass command was, the killing of Euphemia was not accidental. It wa was delibert.
    would you rather have Euphy alive, then? and going berserk and in a killing spree..
    it was better that she died than her peaceful beauty be tainted with more blood..
    because if you're not listening, the geass command was "Eliminate all the Japanese"
    if Lelouch did not kill her, she would have killed Suzaku and the rest and will not stop... it will go on forever..
    death is the only way to gain peace as Lelouch had done in the ending part..

    though i still sit firm in my belief that he is alive...

    ~Howl's Mistress Evil Twin from the Other Side here to save her from further humiliation...

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    No, it wouldn't be sick to cheer when Lelouch died. And don't say that he did a lot of good things. He could have done all those things withoutaa murdering Euphemia and without ordering the geass directorate massacre.. Doing those two acts of unnecessary and obvious evil makes Lelouch just as evil as any villian whose death you have ever cheered at even if he is o therwise a nobel hero.

    If you have never cheered at any villains death then maybe you can say that people who cheer for the death of the villain and/or hero Lelouch are different than you but you should not go so far as to say they are sick.

    Anyway, I hear that the death of Lelouch was nothing to cheer about. It is depressing to think that someone who did things as terrible as killing Euphemia for no logical eason and ordering the geass directorate massacre was so clever than none of his enemies could lkill him and finally he had to plan his own death. And anywone who does such evil things, even if mixed in with good deeds, should be tried and sentenced te death and be dragged screaming and begging for mercy to his exection.

    I say anyone who cried at Lelouch's death merely because they got to know him for 25 hours and saw only his good side at first and got suckered into thinking that he was good enough to like and to be a protagonist makes me depressed.

    Actually it is not too surpsing that Eupheie died if shot somewhere in the torso which is packed with vital organs. -- it is really surprising that so many really evil characters that I wouldn't mind seeing die survived so much worse. Perhaps the doctors did just pretend to try to save her. I think real doctors would have kept working on her right up to the end trying desperately to save her life and she would never have had her dying scene with Suzaku -- or it would have been a lot less private.

    I thought I heard one doctor tell another that it was hopeless. But perhaps it was not the truth but part of their plan. If so, I can only hope that the plan was also to fake Euphemia's death for some reason and that she would resurface sometime after the end of the series.


    Lelouch felt bad about killing Euphy, he cried afterward. Another thing, he didn't want to use Geass, so you can't blame him for that. I always like the villain if they have background, something that characters like Euphy don't have. You're almost as bad as a troll.

    I thought the doctors thing was weird, because in an earlier episode, Mao says: "Britannian mediacl science is amazing!" After he got shot like a hundred times.
    Aw, the wonderful sound of AF.

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    I can't think of any that come to mind at the moment, but my default response to a personal attack is "Your dog has hepatitas". It doesn't work all the time, but hoo-boy when it does, it works wonders.

  23. #23
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I did not say that I cheered for Lelouch's death, which I didn't see, and which I hear was far too low key to cheer about for a character who had committed a terrible murder and ordered a terrible massacre (without being controlled by a geass).

    But I have learned about it the same way you learned aobut the US Civil war or the Roman Empire or anything else which you did not personally witness, by reading. I have read a few references to it here and there on the internet, despite my lack of interest in the second eeason storyline as a whole.

    If you have never cheered at the death of a movie vilian with the rest of the audience, fine for you. There are a lot of action movies where the villains death is obviously designed to get cheers from the bloodthirsty audience. I never cheer at anything in moives or tv because I am very quiet.
    Okay, but AGAIN, you are ASSUMING that the creators of Code Geass wanted us to cheer, be sad or feel any ONE particular way for Lelouch's death and you are basically running with it (and its a wrong assumption to make, so this part of your argument is entirely moot). As I have explained before, the creators of the show made it complex, so that no one particular view is more right or wrong than the other. They know that there are different opinions of the characters and that is what they wanted. Did Lelouch do some very good things? Yes, he did. There is no ignoring that. Did he do some very evil things? Yes, he did. There is no ignoring that, either. Ignoring either aspect of him is rather naive and immature.

    And its nice that you "researched" R2, but you are still at a big disadvantage when it comes to discussing the entire series as a whole. Despite your research, we have actually SEEN the series, and, unless you read a summary that give you a frame-by-frame play-by-play, you are going to be at a big disadvantage so long as you refuse to watch the second season while you ride on you moral high horse. I mean, half the things that you have brought up would never have popped up if you had actually watched the entire series.

    If the only "morally" good thing that you can present to me about yourself is your refusal to watch the second season of Code Geass (of course, you have apparently "researched" it), then you need to grow up just a little bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Everyone has an evil side. But most poeple don't do even one thing which they know that society considers evil.

    Someone who willingly does even one evil thing is classified as an evil person by me. Of course, some people do things which would normally be consdiered evil becaused they are forced by circumstances to do do. Shipwrecked sailors who eat their dead companions to survive are not considered to be evil like a willing cannibal and murderer like Hannibal Lecter is considered to be evil.
    That depends on what society actually considers "evil", whether or not that action is actually "evil" and what you mean by "society". Take me for example. With a large Christian population in the US, I guess that population (or "society") would find me "evil" for practicing Witchcraft (based on their assumptions of it and what the Bible says about it). Being a practicing Witch was a decision that I made on my own, even knowing what society's views were on the subject. Does that make me evil, regardless of the other actions that I have done in my life? According to you, this one conscience decision makes me an evil person, no matter what good things I have done in my life.

    Does this seriously put me in the same category of people who have done other "evil" deeds? Or do you have some type of "level" system? Or does that not even matter to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Lelouch was not forced by circumstances or a geass command or demonic possession to murder Euphemia or to order the gess dirctorate massacre. Therefore those two terrible deeds outweigh a hundred, or a hundred million, good and noble and heroic deeds he might have done in his life. Because those two evil deeds were voluntary on his part. He chose to kill when he did not have to.

    And therefore he does not deserve any empathy from the viewers.
    Once again, I have already given you the disadvantages of keeping Euphemia prisoner, but let me give a quick summery. IF kept prisoner, there is no certainty that the Geass would wear off. Euphemia would lose her marbles (and this is something that HAS happened to another person, so this is a good hypothesis to make). IF used as a bargaining chip, then Charles could easily mess everything up. HE owns Japan. HE is the ultimate commander of the military. He doesn't care about his kids and it really wouldn't be a surprise (and it would be just like him) if he ordered Euphemia's execution himself. Euphemia would have no worth at this point as far as being a tool.

    THEREFORE, the BEST way to get the Japanese onto his side would be to give them what they wanted: her DEATH. Not her capture. Her DEATH. Which is just what he did.

    By the way, you are aware that this is a CARTOON, and Lelouch couldn't really think for himself and only killed Euphemia because it was in the freaking SCRIPT, right? You do? Good. Because then you will understand that being mad at Lelouch, as a cartoon character, really won't do anything, HASN'T been doing anything, and that you are ultimately missing the point entirely and the only REAL person to be mad at would be the creators of the show themselves for deciding that Euphemia should die.

    Of course, I would ALSO hope that you were grown-up and mature enough to realize that death happens in stories all the time that having a character die, no matter who they are, is about as shocking as the sun rising in the morning (but of course I have since given up on that). If Euphemia's death jars you this badly then, yeah, I am convinced that you do not watch anime that often, since there are some much sadder deaths than hers:
    SPOILER WARNING!!

    -Gundam (anything): You have seen what can happen, right?
    -Chrono Crusade: Rosette crying about not dying...and then actually dies.
    -Fullmetal Alchemist: Dude, Maes Hughes gets killed while seeing an image of his WIFE! And his daughter was in denial at the funeral (which has to be one of the saddest things ever made).
    -Trigun: Wolfwood tells God over and over that he can't die, that he has so much to do and finish...and then dies.
    -Neon Genesis Evangelion: Well, Shinji Ikari had to kill the ONLY person who ever said that they loved him (and killed him by popping his head off like a freaking PEZ dispenser) and freaked out afterward.
    -Samurai X: Kenshin finally makes it home to Kaoru...only to die of a terminal disease.
    -Grave of the Fireflies: Saita finally returns with food for his sister and, just as he gives it to her, she dies.
    -Saikano: ALL OF IT (a death occurs every couple of episodes, usually involving a character close to the main one)!!!!

    Yeah, watch these first, THEN get back to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    If someone you knew for many years and spent thousands of days total time with and loved was suddenly proved to a murderer, it would be normal for youn to keep on loving him despite that knowledge.

    But lleouch is just a cartoon character you have seen for a mere fifty hours (not counting rewatchings) and so you should be able to easly break free of the much lighter conditioning to like him that you have been though and see htat he was runied and spoied all his good uqalities with a few voluntary actions which are obviously evil.

    I curse myself for not being able to do so earlier than I did.

    And the fact that it is taking you even longer is somethhing I find depressing.
    Umm...the pot calling the kettle black, yes? If I am not mistaken, you are still upset about Euphemia's death and that happened over 2 years ago and she only appeared in 18 episodes (9 hours of airtime), so compared to everyone else, you should be least upset one here (in fact, you shouldn't even BE upset) since you should have gotten over it a long time ago, based on what you said to us.

    WE have gotten over both Lelouch's and Euphemia's death. Both events were rather shocking and tragic. However, they were not the MOST shocking things that we have ever seen in an anime (see above). Like I told you before, because of Bandai's pattern with characters (and because of my previous knowledge of Saint Euphemia and knowing that having a Bandai character with the same would be NO coincidence), I pretty much knew that Euphemia was going to die; so it really didn't surprise me when she did. This does not make me a terrible person nor does not having prior knowledge and acting with shock and rage make you a better person (in fact, it make you rather naive and immature).

    It is rather hypocritical of you to suggest that WE should gotten over his death a long time ago (which we have, by the way), based on the 25 hours that we knew him, in yet, you are still whining about Euphemia's death and she appeared for less than 9 hours, considering that you didn't even pay attention to her any more than we did until AFTER her death.

    Are you somehow an exception? Or did this all fly over your head?
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 10-21-2009 at 05:32 PM.
    This is my war face.

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  24. #24
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CerebralDivinity View Post
    How can you assume this to be true? Randomly asserting things is not the same as actually illustrating them to be true. How can you possibly say that you knew the exact intentions of an imaginary character from a work of fiction that you didn't write? And this is with all of the evidence showing the exact opposite. Lelouch clearly used his geass by accident. I can't see how you can POSSIBLY disagree with that.
    In Episode 22 Lelouch pulled a ceramic gun which the metal detectors hand't detected out from under his cloak and pointed it at Euphie (the FOURTH time he pointed a gun at her).

    He told her her that he was going to make her shoot him.

    She said that it would start a riot, and he ranted that when he revived from death (I started a whole thread to discuss what he meant) it would prove to the Japanese that she was a false messiah and he was their true messiah.

    That's how I got the idea that Lelouch was planning to use a geass command on Euphie to trick "thousands" of Japanese into fighting, killing, and dying for his revolution. I overheard him tell it to Euphie. She talked him out of it, and then he gave her the accidental geass command to kill the Japanese.


    Quote Originally Posted by CerebralDivinity View Post
    Are you familiar with Of Mice and Men, by John Steinbeck? It's a very very similar case here.

    What you seem to not understand is that Lelouch killing Euphemia was probably for the best. If she lived, she would have been (as far as anyone could logically guess based on what details about geass had been revealed at that point) under the control of the geass he put on her for the rest of her life.

    What good would have come from capturing her? That would have most likely provoked Britannia into an all-out offensive to reclaim her, which would have been bad for everyone (more pointless casualties on both sides). Alternatively, or if thereafter, Britannia recovers Euphemia, only to find that she has an insane obsession to kill the Japanese, they'll probably dispose of her themselves at best, or conduct tests on her at worst.

    There's really not much of a choice here for Lelouch, if you think logically about it.
    Since Lelouch apparently was just talking about the power of his geass and did not intend it as a command to be obeyed, he did not frame it precisely. He said "kill the Japanese" or "Kill all the Japanese" without specifying if he meant the ones in the stadium or all the ones in the world and he did not specify a time duration for the command since he didn't know it would be a command.

    If Lelouch gave a clearly defined action to do, such as "kill all the Japanese in the stadium" or "kill all the Japanese in the world" or kill ten thousand Japanese" Euphemia would have to obey until the task was done. If Lelouch said to "kill the Japanese for six hours" or "Kill the Japanese for the rest of your life" Euphemia would have had to obey for the specified time, six hours, or the rest of her life, or whatever.

    Lelouch gave Suazku a geass command to "live" or "survive". He didn't say "survive the current danger" or "survive every danger you ever face", and he didn't say "survive now" or survive for ten years" or "survive as long as you can". Lelouch didn't specify what Suzaku was supposed to survive and he didn't specify how long Suazku was supposed to do it.

    So Suzaku was very fearful at first but later that day he was attacked by Kallen and he fought her instead of running away from her. A day or two later Lelouch saw Suzaku fight bravely against the Chinese invasion.

    Lelouch did not think "Wow! How can Suzaku fight so bravely? He should be a coward for the rest of his life." This shows that Lelouch's experiments had shown that a geass command to do something vague with no specified duration would would last for minutes or hours and thus Suazku's behavior was what would be expected.

    Suzaku's and Euphemia's geass commands both had vague instructions and were without specified durations, and so Lelouch and the audience should have expected that Euphemia's geass command would control her for about as long as Suzaku's controlled him.

    It is said that CC undid Charles's geass of false memory on Lelouch at the start of season two and could do so because Charles got his geass power from VV, not CC. Thus VV should have been able to undo Lelouch's geass command to Euphemia since Lelouch got his geass power from CC. Lelouch could have asked CC if there was anyway to undo a geass command before ordering Euphemia killed, and CC could have told him if she had been asked.

    If Euphemia had been captured and confined for just a year it would have been possible for Jeremiah to use his geass canceler on her. If Lelouch had any hope that something unexpected might turn up he could have captured Euphemia and she would have been cured in just one lousy stinking year!

    So much for your idea that Euphemia would have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life.

    You think that the Britannians would have launched a massive invasion to release Euphemia if she was held captive? If they valued her life that much, Lelouch should have ordered his men not to kill her but to capture her to use as a hostage to stop the Fuji massacre as soon as possible. Some people would say that not doing so made Lelouch guilty of murdering all the Japanese people he could have saved by using her as a hostage but didn't save.

    The Britannians were going to launch a massive invasion of Japan anyway to recapture it from the rebels.

    If the Britannians got hold of Euphemia Emperor Charles could have had VV undo her geass command.

    I hear that after Zero killed Euphie, after she was already dead, the Britannaians claimed that they had actually executed her for the massacre. But if she survived the Britannians might have executed her, or imprisoned her, or sent her to an insane asylum, or even toughed it out and given her a medal for uncovering and foiling the Japanese plot to rise up and massacre the Britannians first in the SAZ and then in all of Area Eleven (which would not be that far from the truth since Lelouch was plotting something similar). Of course, since Euphie usually wears flimsy ball gowns pinning a medal on her could be painful (and mentally painful too, if she had been cured by then).

    Quote Originally Posted by CerebralDivinity View Post
    This type of thinking is altogether way too simplistic for this situation. It's like saying that anyone who cuts a person with a knife is bad, therefore doctors are bad. I know that's not a perfect analogy, but is there really much difference between letting a person who has lost their free will live, and killing them to avoid them further harming themselves and others? Honestly, I have to say that Lelouch probably made the better choice.
    I say that Lelouch didn't hear Euphemia seaming in agony and begging to be killed before he shot her. If he expected her to suffer in the future he had no way of accurately predicting how much she might suffer. Any idea that he had that she might suffer so much that death would be better would be pure speculation his his part. He would be like Rufus T. Firefly in Duck Soup, who worried that Ambassador Trentino might not accept his apology and got angry at Trentino and started a war because of his hypothetical speculations.

    I say that no matter what happened to Euphemia if Lelouch did not shoot her, no matter how much or how little she suffered, she would still be able to think and feel and enjoy some of the pleasures of life. I say that no matter how much Euphemia suffered she would have been happier alive than dead.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 10-25-2009 at 10:11 PM.

  25. #25
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    You guys, in ALL seriousness, I think she is channelling Nina's spirit.

    QUICK!! Someone lock her up in the loony bin before she can create FREIA and blow us all up!!!!
    Last edited by suzumi; 10-22-2009 at 01:23 AM.
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