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Thread: Roche vs Heero

  1. #1
    Senior Member B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam's Avatar
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    Default Roche vs Heero

    No poll, discussions only.

    "Story" (made up): AC timeline, the 5 "Gundams" appeared and are superior to every mobile suit in existance up to then... everything? The Stardust Knights can't be having that and call bullsh*t! THE STRONGEST MS IS OBVIOUSLY THE LEO (says they)! Leos are the pride of OZ, their honour must be defended and Roche is the one out to do it!

    In their respective stories, Roche and Heero never met, though Roche has shown to keep up with a Gundam *stronger than Wing Zero* in his custom Leo, even to the point of nearly winning (but being the bad guy means he'll get foiled by suddenly appearing help in form of Odin's brother). Given Odin would beat Heero when each using their respective best units (discussed), this should be a fair fight.

    Heero in Wing Gundam (NOT wing zero, as mentioned, the Gundams first appeared)



    Weapons: Buster Rifle, Vulcans, Beam Sabre
    Abilities: Bird Mode transformation


    Roche in Leo-S



    Weapons: Beam Rifle, Beam Sabre (modified and wielded like a Rapier)
    Abilities: None, though it has a huge cape with which Roche conceals the actual stance of his Leo's body beneath it, making it hard even for the best marksmen to get clean hits off.

    (Note: in the last now closed thread Roche was mentioned in someone stated he cannot keep his emotions in check and that gives him a disadvantage. Emotions are not a disadvantage and in the actual story, which the poster probably didn't read, it mainly related to his allegiance with OZ and psychological state on Kratz's and Valder's betrayal. Opponents like Heero do not relevantly affect this, especially since Heero isn't likely to speak to him at all, much less betray his trust without prior backstory which is not given here).
    Last edited by B Gundam; 09-12-2009 at 11:59 AM.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member J Gundam has a reputation beyond repute J Gundam has a reputation beyond repute J Gundam has a reputation beyond repute J Gundam has a reputation beyond repute J Gundam has a reputation beyond repute J Gundam has a reputation beyond repute J Gundam has a reputation beyond repute J Gundam has a reputation beyond repute J Gundam has a reputation beyond repute J Gundam has a reputation beyond repute J Gundam has a reputation beyond repute J Gundam's Avatar
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    I say Roche wins even though I haven't read G-Unit. Zechs took on Heero in a regular Leo while in reentry and might have been able to fight him for much longer had they been on Earth.

    Would you recommend reading G-Unit? I recently found a website where I can read it but I'm not really motivated to with the suits that thrash GW's in the "flash" department. I know it's basically the only AC media that has nothing to do with the Gundam boys but I would honestly love to see Sunrise focus on regular Alliance/OZ soldiers, piloting standard Leos and Ares.

  3. #3
    Senior Member B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam has a reputation beyond repute B Gundam's Avatar
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    Would you recommend reading G-Unit? I recently found a website where I can read it but I'm not really motivated to with the suits that thrash GW's in the "flash" department. I know it's basically the only AC media that has nothing to do with the Gundam boys but I would honestly love to see Sunrise focus on regular Alliance/OZ soldiers, piloting standard Leos and Ares.
    Well there are quite a lot of mangas out there where you can say that you didn't miss much if you didn't read them, like that one magical girl manga... with Zakus... (yeah, girls piloting magical sailor MS) or Ecole du Ciel or the like, aside of covering some part of the metaverse or giving you some 'lolwut?' experience.

    G-Unit is just on of the few stories in the AC not centered on the characters of the series, if you want to see more of the AC, sure. Otherwise you can go get more Heero'n'frends from some of the sidestories that connect GW with EW. Actually you can also go read the GW manga.

    As for standard Leos, yeah I wished that too for the AC, OZ troops are just... well, see the OZ Soldier Survival Guide for what I mean (Noin's buddies are the ONLY mooks I acknowledge having basic intelligence, everybody else just seems braindead in battles. Its basically what makes moves like rolling buster rifle even work on MS squads, - they forget there's a 3rd dimension and ignore Heero's stance alltogether). But the closest you'll get for it are the Stardust Knights in their very modified Leos (they do have to fight Gundams after all). Valder supposedly beat various other aces in a Free For All in a Leo, but that unit was never specified much, it could have been a basic Leo with decorations, or some modified machine.

    I can not say YOU MUST READ, nor can I say STAY THE HECK AWAY. Its up to you, really. The only thing that will bug you is how the boys of GW go around piloting top secret cutting edge machines developed for years... and then Dr. Berg comes around from the edge of the galaxy spitting out Gundams twice as strong, which he built around the same period seemingly in less time and even makes a PX-system that can at least rival the ZERO system (though the effects are different). IMO expanding the AC beyond that of 5 boys chipping on evil organisations was a good thing to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by B Gundam View Post
    As for standard Leos, yeah I wished that too for the AC, OZ troops are just... well, see the OZ Soldier Survival Guide for what I mean (Noin's buddies are the ONLY mooks I acknowledge having basic intelligence, everybody else just seems braindead in battles. Its basically what makes moves like rolling buster rifle even work on MS squads, - they forget there's a 3rd dimension and ignore Heero's stance alltogether). But the closest you'll get for it are the Stardust Knights in their very modified Leos (they do have to fight Gundams after all). Valder supposedly beat various other aces in a Free For All in a Leo, but that unit was never specified much, it could have been a basic Leo with decorations, or some modified machine.
    I can't deny that 98% of the antagonist pilots in GW were stupid. Even Walker (a very well-written character), tried to use strategy in the episode he was in but was quickly dispatched when his squadron died. However, moves like the "rolling buster rifle" were only used in space where all the battles involved mobile dolls.

    Quote Originally Posted by B Gundam View Post
    I can not say YOU MUST READ, nor can I say STAY THE HECK AWAY. Its up to you, really. The only thing that will bug you is how the boys of GW go around piloting top secret cutting edge machines developed for years... and then Dr. Berg comes around from the edge of the galaxy spitting out Gundams twice as strong, which he built around the same period seemingly in less time and even makes a PX-system that can at least rival the ZERO system (though the effects are different). IMO expanding the AC beyond that of 5 boys chipping on evil organisations was a good thing to do.
    I read about G-Unit and that DID puzzle me. I understand Gundanium is only refined in space but like you said, the MS in G-Unit are on another level.

    I'll probably end up reading G-Unit but not till I've finished several of the series I have lined up.

  5. #5
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    only used in space where all the battles involved mobile dolls
    Thats what I mean, in space you have twice as much options to dodge a rolling buster rifle than on earth or any place with ground beneath you. Apparantly MDs are made with an AI following the OZ Soldiers Survival Guide, except the ones with Trowa's AI, they get to have his unique unmistakable fighting style (stand and shoot, as noted by Duo), but at least they fare better than basic soldiers. I guess thats why Treize didn't want Mobile Dolls taking over; if OZ actually had capable fighters, the war he's waging would cause inconveniences for the population XD.
    Last edited by B Gundam; 09-21-2009 at 08:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by B Gundam View Post
    Thats what I mean, in space you have twice as much options to dodge a rolling buster rifle than on earth or any place with ground beneath you. Apparantly MDs are made with an AI following the OZ Soldiers Survival Guide, except the ones with Trowa's AI, they get to have his unique unmistakable fighting style (stand and shoot, as noted by Duo), but at least they fare better than basic soldiers. I guess thats why Treize didn't want Mobile Dolls taking over; if OZ actually had capable fighters, the war he's waging would cause inconveniences for the population XD.
    LOL! The creators of GW just did a terrible job of explaining the finer points of the series that made other series enjoyable. If all of the Gundam pilots were newtypes fine but the word never even came up in the series. It was only after I re-watched GW two years ago that I wondered what the hell was that glow transfer between Heero and Quatre the first time Heero piloted Wing Zero?

    And we've already talked ad nauseam about the problems with pilots that weren't main characters.

    I still love GW but it's hard to ignore it's flaws now that I've begun watching other series.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Heer0Yuy has a reputation beyond repute Heer0Yuy has a reputation beyond repute Heer0Yuy has a reputation beyond repute Heer0Yuy has a reputation beyond repute Heer0Yuy has a reputation beyond repute Heer0Yuy has a reputation beyond repute Heer0Yuy has a reputation beyond repute Heer0Yuy has a reputation beyond repute Heer0Yuy has a reputation beyond repute Heer0Yuy has a reputation beyond repute Heer0Yuy has a reputation beyond repute Heer0Yuy's Avatar
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    All I can say is artwork isn't its forte'. Seed did a better job than that of Wing. But what I can't ignore in Wing is that unpredictable story. I wondered what would happen if you spies and Gundams were crossed. I got Wing. The infiltrations, duels, TOTALLY awsome...



    ______
    "I'll kill Zechs. That's my way of saying thanks." -Heero Yui
    Last edited by Heer0Yuy; 09-17-2009 at 10:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heer0Yuy View Post
    All I can say is artwork isn't its forte'. Seed did a better job than that of Wing. But what I can't ignore in Wing is that unpredictable story. I wondered what would happen if you spies and Gundams were crossed. I got Wing. The infiltrations, duels, TOTALLY awsome...
    SEED came six years after Wing so it isn't fair to compare the artwork. As for the story, I couldn't agree more. Critics can call what they want but I LOVE GW's unpredictable story. "Scenario For Bloodshed" is the perfect example. Treize manipulates the Gundam pilots into killing the Alliance leaders who were seeking peace and then cripples the majority of the organization from within in one day.

    As for the duels, Heero and Zechs had a number of duels but none of the other pilots really got a chance to duel anyone. This goes back to GW's general lack of aces other than Zechs and Treize. Wufei's nemesis is considered to be Treize but they only fought once in their mobile suits. Duo fought Trant Clark for a little but I wouldn't really call their fight a "duel". Trowa and Quatre had no one-on-one confrontations to to speak of. I'm not saying their should have been an ace to fight every pilot but I just wish there had been a few more duels between the Gundam pilots and antagonists not named Zechs or Treize.
    Last edited by J Gundam; 09-21-2009 at 03:46 PM. Reason: I had more to say...

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    Well we do have Duo vs Trowa for a bit if you are going with duels, but most of them are "press your beam sabres together and have a longer talk".

    (And when did we start talking about artwork?) SEED does have a predictability defecit against W. But you have to consider that the plan "fight an organisation that has taken over the world by sending 5 teenagers to sneak around in giant robots to chip on their defenses in random different places (and yet somehow they meet up, a small World huh?)" is moot beyond common sense (you cannot predict things that make no sense to begin with). Also, yet another colony drop was not exactly unpredictable.

    SEED on the other hand simply pulled every existing superstition about gundam there is (teenage boy jumping into the cockpit, gundamjack, colony drop YET AGAIN). You'd they wanted to make a rerun of 0079 with colony drops, but we already had For the Barrel for that.

    And I don't know how but somehow this pure GW topic ended up with you 2 comparing them to other timelines and series of all things. But lets get back to GW since thats your fav anyways.

    So back to the last chance for the glory of our little Leos, will Roche show that Leos of the AC can dream to achieve something or will he be smitten by the perfect soldier in the notorious Wing Gundam?
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    Quote Originally Posted by B Gundam View Post
    Well we do have Duo vs Trowa for a bit if you are going with duels, but most of them are "press your beam sabres together and have a longer talk".
    Like I said, the only real duels in GW were the duels between Zechs and Heero in Antarctica, their final duel within Libra and Wufei and Treize's duel during the final battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by B Gundam View Post
    But you have to consider that the plan "fight an organisation that has taken over the world by sending 5 teenagers to sneak around in giant robots to chip on their defenses in random different places (and yet somehow they meet up, a small World huh?)" is moot beyond common sense (you cannot predict things that make no sense to begin with). Also, yet another colony drop was not exactly unpredictable.
    When you dissect the plan that way, it obviously sounds stupid. However, the majority of main protagonists in the Gundam multi-verse up until GW had been teenagers so why would Masashi Ikeda break the mold? I don't see the problem...

    The pilots didn't "somehow meet up". They all had the same objective and were under the impression OZ leaders had gathered in New Edwards. It only makes sense they would meet up.

    And finally, their was no colony drop. Libra(a battleship) was head towards Earth where it would most likely bombard it with the main cannon. After Peacemillion(a spacecraft) crashed into it, the only solution was to ram both ships into Earth. Again, no colonies were involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by B Gundam View Post
    B]And I don't know how but somehow this pure GW topic ended up with you 2 comparing them to other timelines and series of all things. But lets get back to GW since thats your fav anyways.[/B]
    I haven't compared GW to any timeline or series in this topic.

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    When you dissect the plan that way, it obviously sounds stupid. However, the majority of main protagonists in the Gundam multi-verse up until GW had been teenagers so why would Masashi Ikeda break the mold? I don't see the problem...
    That only answers "Teenagers involved=yes/no", not why it sounds stupid. I'll say it again, the master plan was to give 5 boys gundams, make them stealth around and chip away at an organisation that has taken over the World, so a teenage girl can become queen of the World.

    I haven't compared GW to any timeline or series in this topic.
    SEED came six years after Wing so it isn't fair to compare the artwork
    Okay maybe it was the wrong term, lets say defending the series' artwork out of the blue.
    Last edited by B Gundam; 09-23-2009 at 07:22 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by B Gundam View Post
    That only answers "Teenagers involved=yes/no", not why it sounds stupid. I'll say it again, the master plan was to give 5 boys gundams, make them stealth around and chip away at an organisation that has taken over the World, so a teenage girl can become queen of the World.
    It sounds stupid to you but 3 of the Gundam pilots had previous battle experience or were trained for Operation Meteor while the other two basically volunteered(the same way a group of kids volunteered in another Gundam series everyone knows).

    And the last part of your sentence is complete B.S. The Gundam pilots had nothing to do with Relena becoming Queen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Gundam View Post
    It sounds stupid to you but 3 of the Gundam pilots had previous battle experience or were trained for Operation Meteor while the other two basically volunteered
    Yeah, train kids and explicitely give them Gundams, bonus points from ones that volunteer, give them a Gundam as well while we're at it. This is the kind of plan geniuses come up with when freeing the World from the grasp of a fully armed organisation.

    (the same way a group of kids volunteered in another Gundam series everyone knows).
    Even on a crew as old as White Base, that was to evacuate from an enemy attack lacking choices. It DOES Works for ZZ, because they didn't let Tomino do it right til the latter half and Judau turned out proficient, even if the pilot shortage on that battleship was ridiculous. But was the master plan of the Federation to give random children the Gundam and then make them go fight Zeon by themselves?

    And the last part of your sentence is complete B.S. The Gundam pilots had nothing to do with Relena becoming Queen.
    Oh sorry, that was the plan of the evil organisation to strengthen their rule over the World. Well, if you look at it probably the other guys plans will work if this is what they're up against. Fortunately OZ had more in the back hand (thank goodness they have Treize).
    Last edited by B Gundam; 09-24-2009 at 01:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by B Gundam View Post
    Yeah, train kids and explicitely give them Gundams, bonus points from ones that volunteer, give them a Gundam as well while we're at it. This is the kind of plan geniuses come up with when freeing the World from the grasp of a fully armed organisation.
    Wow. Young pilots or pilots without much experience in real battles are given mobile suits throughout the multi-verse. Remember Bernie Wiseman? Shiro Amada? Kou Uraki? Kou is the perfect example. His superiors could easily have given the GP01 to Monsha or someone else but they let Kou pilot it.

    Quote Originally Posted by B Gundam View Post
    But was the master plan of the Federation to give random children the Gundam and then make them go fight Zeon by themselves?
    The truth just isn't registering with you is it? You have assumptions that you've made about GW and no matter what really happened, you'll continue to judge the show based on those assumptions. One final time, besides Heero, none of the pilots were chosen at random.

    Quote Originally Posted by B Gundam View Post
    Oh sorry, that was the plan of the evil organisation to strengthen their rule over the World.
    It made perfect sense to use Relena as a unifying force for Romefeller. It may sound like a dumb plan to you simply because you don't like the show but if you really did watch the show, you would know it makes sense.

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    Wow. Young pilots or pilots without much experience in real battles are given mobile suits throughout the multi-verse. Remember Bernie Wiseman? Shiro Amada? Kou Uraki? Kou is the perfect example. His superiors could easily have given the GP01 to Monsha or someone else but they let Kou pilot it.
    -You aren't remembering it right. Zeon giving them to children wasn't a problem, Zeon's lack of pilots made them give Zakus to pilots who were only taught to run forward and shoot, Bernie getting into Cyclops Force at all was a big fluke.
    -Shiro was a Lieutenant, giving him cadre rights and qualification above the average pilot, you can get out of the academy as cadre or on the honor role. And was given a Ground Gundam (fodder). EZ-8 was scrap parts (unique, but still fodder). Karen's GM Head was Ground Gundam with GM Head (unique, still fodder).
    -If you do remember the show, Kou wasn't supposed to get it at all, he just took it. They would have very well given it to Monsha if the latter wasn't drunk or had that type of personality (would *you* give Monsha a Gundam from him throwing a tantrum? You might have prior to that but...). He also just took the GP03, and he took the consequence for it.

    The truth just isn't registering with you is it? You have assumptions that you've made about GW and no matter what really happened, you'll continue to judge the show based on those assumptions. One final time, besides Heero, none of the pilots were chosen at random.
    What I'm registering is, *those* are the pilots chosen. And *that* is the plan they come up with. Do you notice the effort put into the 5 Gundams put elsewhere could have otherwise overturned OZ already? Just that it would be boring. That they very well could take people that were not... well... teenagers to train? They had the necessary free space beforehand and most of the teens didn't just fall into their respective unit all of a suddenly (though that was overused), no, they planned it with those specifically. I understand Wufei (and in the mangas he's actually awesome, its the Gundam Wing *fans* who just coined him a brute and misogynist) The Gundam Pilots are all 15-16 along the way. Some of them were doing this even earlier (manga, implied past). Zechs, Lucrezia, and Une are 19. At least Treize is as "old" as 24 (again, thank god for Treize), but somehow the audience needs to figure in fridge logic that they are supposed to believe this is the elite of the World. Oh and Marimea is what? 10? (forgot, but should be close). Of course there is Dekim but how does she get any responsibility and authority? Treize must have some insane charisma genes there.

    It made perfect sense to use Relena as a unifying force for Romefeller. It may sound like a dumb plan to you simply because you don't like the show but if you really did watch the show, you would know it makes sense.
    I watched it twice, but even the 2nd time is way behind by now. The most severe case of it was a week in which I believed Karen Joshua was in Ecole du Ciel (you have to admit she would have been a viable character there), until I saw my artbook while rummaging through stuff. It still makes no sense, even Mineva makes no sense, well okay Zeon *is* pretty much made into a big family business by the Zabis and Mineba doesn't command the army, but given realistic modernish/futureish settings we're somehow to buy it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by B Gundam View Post
    What I'm registering is, *those* are the pilots chosen. And *that* is the plan they come up with. Do you notice the effort put into the 5 Gundams put elsewhere could have otherwise overturned OZ already? Just that it would be boring. That they very well could take people that were not... well... teenagers to train? They had the necessary free space beforehand and most of the teens didn't just fall into their respective unit all of a suddenly (though that was overused), no, they planned it with those specifically. I understand Wufei (and in the mangas he's actually awesome, its the Gundam Wing *fans* who just coined him a brute and misogynist) The Gundam Pilots are all 15-16 along the way. Some of them were doing this even earlier (manga, implied past). Zechs, Lucrezia, and Une are 19. At least Treize is as "old" as 24 (again, thank god for Treize), but somehow the audience needs to figure in fridge logic that they are supposed to believe this is the elite of the World. Oh and Marimea is what? 10? (forgot, but should be close). Of course there is Dekim but how does she get any responsibility and authority? Treize must have some insane charisma genes there.
    Good points. I'll finally admit that I've always wondered why the cream of the crop in GW are all 24 and below but I guess that's just the way the creators wanted to do it. The original Trowa Barton was 20 but the other Gundam pilots were chosen or volunteered despite being very young. The only pilots that really make sense to me as pilots are Trowa, due to his experience and Heero, simply because of all his training.

    I agree with you about Wufei. It amazes me how thick some fans of GW are when it comes to him.

    As for Mariemaia, she was merely a figure-head like Relena was supposed to be during the series.

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