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Thread: Time Travel

  1. #1
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    Default Time Travel

    This is to be a discussion upon theories, and amongst intelectuals. Try to keep this scientific.

    Feel free to ask questions, and present theories.


    A few simple questions for you to answer:
    • Do you believe in forward time travel?
    • Do you believe in reverse time travel?
    • Does the Fermi Paradox disprove reverse time travel?
    • Does the Grandfather Paradox disallow reverse time travel?
    • Does relativity allow forward time travel?
    • will add more later. its 4am.
    [We the unappeased, the unaccepting continued looking,
    filling in the silences with our own wishes, fears and fantasies.
    Driven forward by the fact that no matter how empty the world
    seemed, no matter how degraded and used up the world appeared to
    us, we knew that anything was still possible.]

  2. #2
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    I dont think people can travel in time.....
    It's Impossible!

  3. #3
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    If you believe in Albert Einsteins interpretation of the space time continuum. Then yes Time travel would be possbile. So would worm holes. Scientists are now starting to believe how warped the space time continuum can be when gravity has a negative effect on it. I.E. Black holes and how they function.

    So yes I do believe its possible. Will we see it anytime soon? Highly doubtful.


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  4. #4
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    Time Traveling is for NOOBS!
    ive done it many times ... and its not time travel btw its D.P.D.J.(distorted parallel dimension jumping) i dont recommend it though unless you like hearing that TV distortiion you get on like channel 3 in your head for like 3 hours
    Last edited by sataned; 09-04-2009 at 04:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sataned View Post
    Time Traveling is for NOOBS!
    ive done it many times ... and its not time travel btw its D.P.D.J.(distorted parallel dimension jumping)
    Only if you can jump to the 4th dimension where people believe is where time control exists >.> some people even think there are 4th dimensional beings! A.k.A Ghosts :]


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    when people ask me about time travel (and they often do, i'm sort of an expert) i usually refer them to the episode of The Big Bang Theory where Leonard wins the time machine prop on ebay. In that episode Sheldon gives lots of insight on the intricacies of time travel

    hey, its 4am here as well! i think, in return for allowing me this joking post, i will give your question some serious thought tomorrow and give as satisfactory a response as i can

    disclaimer: i do not claim to have a valid opinion, or even be capable of providing anything meaningful to the dialogue.
    BTW: isnt this a strange choice of forum for such an academic discussion? Sure this is the misc. section but the misc. typically implies time killer/throwaway/just for kicks. I'm just saying if you have an honest interest in this you would have a better chance of getting a good response at a related forum. I'm sure you already knew that but hey, just trying to help a brutha out!

    edit: to the post above, look up a video called "the tenth dimension" or something like that. it does a good job of explaining things like the 4th dimension in laymans terms (not that you're dumb, just saying). But i'm not so sure one could accomplish ANYTHING in the 4th dimension, it would be a cluttered mess. wouldnt it essentialyl be like the existence you have now, except that you can see the past,present,and future all at once? imagine that one person existed for a total of 5 seconds. in those 5 seconds he walks from one side of a room to the other. if you saw in 4 dimensions, you would see every instance of the man's existence AT THE SAME TIME. now multiply that by a gazillion and convince yourself that you can concoct some way to control time while in that mess.
    Last edited by RaShayRitto; 09-04-2009 at 04:51 AM.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaShayRitto View Post
    when people ask me about time travel (and they often do, i'm sort of an expert) i usually refer them to the episode of The Big Bang Theory where Leonard wins the time machine prop on ebay. In that episode Sheldon gives lots of insight on the intricacies of time travel
    OMG Sheldon is totally my husband....... lol minus the funny XD Sheldon was my total fave tho in that show.


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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ♥Chise♥ View Post
    If you believe in Albert Einsteins interpretation of the space time continuum. Then yes Time travel would be possbile. So would worm holes. Scientists are now starting to believe how warped the space time continuum can be when gravity has a negative effect on it. I.E. Black holes and how they function.
    scientists have understood how Frame-dragging has worked for close to a century.


    Quote Originally Posted by ♥Chise♥ View Post
    So yes I do believe its possible. Will we see it anytime soon? Highly doubtful.
    Forward time travel already exists, and already has been done at a miniscule scale. work on a reverse time machine has been up for several years now, attempting to send subatomic particles into the past.
    [We the unappeased, the unaccepting continued looking,
    filling in the silences with our own wishes, fears and fantasies.
    Driven forward by the fact that no matter how empty the world
    seemed, no matter how degraded and used up the world appeared to
    us, we knew that anything was still possible.]

  9. #9
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    Do you believe in forward time travel?

    I've been doing it for 22 years.

    Do you believe in reverse time travel?

    I'm open to the concept, though it seems fairly likely that something like the Novikov self-consistency principle would apply.

    Does the Fermi Paradox disprove reverse time travel?

    No. Time travel devices that can only travel back to the date they were first activated of later do not give rise to the fermi paradox.

    Does the Grandfather Paradox disallow reverse time travel?

    No. (Novikov again)

    Does relativity allow forward time travel?

    Yes. No. Depends on how you look at it. Relativity is notoriously ... relative.
    Last edited by Eris; 09-04-2009 at 06:42 AM.



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    I believe you can travel in time because I want to, and if you believe in something you can get it. Well maybe not in this came but we can all hope?
    I would LOVE to travel back kthx?
    i cant believe we almost hung it up o woah o .set made by me;
    .....

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eris View Post
    Do you believe in forward time travel?
    I've been doing it for 22 years.

    You have been a pawn in the conventional flow of time, but you know what it is that I ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eris View Post
    Do you believe in reverse time travel?

    I'm open to the concept, though it seems fairly likely that something like the Novikov self-consistency principle would apply.
    That principle interferes with the existence of free will. If probability in any situation, paradox or not, were to reach zero that would negate, Iím sure, much of Quantum physics.

    A principle of parallel universe or multiverse would seem viable to me, but I have only lightly contemplated this.

    In asking this question, I was looking more for insights upon theories of executing time travel, not principles that apply afterwards. What reason does principle have if it applicates only to something impossible. It can be fun to ponder, but effectively benign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eris View Post

    Does the Fermi Paradox disprove reverse time travel?

    No. Time travel devices that can only travel back to the date they were first activated of later do not give rise to the fermi paradox.
    Im sure those who acknowledge fermi paradox already knew that. I was hoping that you would assume to relate Fermi paradox with a time travel device that can precede the date of its constructure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eris View Post

    Does the Grandfather Paradox disallow reverse time travel?

    No. (Novikov again)
    mmmÖ I think I messed this question up. It was 4am and I started having this episode where I would feel limbs flailing that werenít there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eris View Post
    Does relativity allow forward time travel?

    Yes. No. Depends on how you look at it. Relativity is notoriously ... relative.
    Just a tad bit of elaboration would help me understand what you mean
    [We the unappeased, the unaccepting continued looking,
    filling in the silences with our own wishes, fears and fantasies.
    Driven forward by the fact that no matter how empty the world
    seemed, no matter how degraded and used up the world appeared to
    us, we knew that anything was still possible.]

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenny_killer View Post
    That principle interferes with the existence of free will. If probability in any situation, paradox or not, were to reach zero that would negate, I’m sure, much of Quantum physics.
    Quantum physics only demands that probability is conserved (that is, the sum of all probabilities is 100% likely), and free can not be derived from quantum randomness, since you are no more free to choose what wave functions collapse than you are to choose some divine fate. You'd be a slave of completely random fluctuations, not have free will.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenny_killer View Post
    A principle of parallel universe or multiverse would seem viable to me, but I have only lightly contemplated this.
    The notion of parallel universes are quite outdated in quantum physics. You'll have hard to find any physicist who takes it seriously these days. It's mostly consistent histories nowadays.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenny_killer View Post
    In asking this question, I was looking more for insights upon theories of executing time travel, not principles that apply afterwards. What reason does principle have if it applicates only to something impossible. It can be fun to ponder, but effectively benign.
    The principle resolves paradoxes that arise from time travel. So, assuming the universe is to be consistent, it is likely that if time travel works, something like this principle would apply.


    Quote Originally Posted by kenny_killer View Post
    Im sure those who acknowledge fermi paradox already knew that. I was hoping that you would assume to relate Fermi paradox with a time travel device that can precede the date of its constructure.
    There are cases where the fermi paradox does seem to indicate that time travel is impossible. But as I said, there are also cases that the fermi paradox does not affect.


    Quote Originally Posted by kenny_killer View Post
    Just a tad bit of elaboration would help me understand what you mean
    It really is non-trivial. Things like who is doing the actual time travel, and whether it is space or time that is being traveled in are highly debatable.
    Last edited by Eris; 09-05-2009 at 08:21 AM.



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  13. #13
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    I do believe in the possibility of forward time travel. This seems possible-- or rather would be (relatively) if people could travel at light speed. I am curious about your question in regards to the Fermi Paradox, since it seems to have to do more with extra terrestrials and interstellar travel than it does time travel. Is it possible you've gotten them confused?

    I am skeptical on the possibility of "reverse" (I use quotations because I feel like the term reverse is too ambiguous. Simply saying "traveling backwards in time" would be more concise) time travel, although it would be neat if possible (but also very dangerous to use). I very much believe that if it were possible, traveling backwards in time should be limited as the misuse of it could prove catastrophic or change history as we know it.

    The Grandfather Paradox doesn't necessarily disallow traveling backwards in time. And there are a couple of reasons for that. The first being that just because someone were to travel back in time, it doesn't mean they would be in a situation as to where they could potentially do something that would jeopardize their own existence. What if someone simply were to travel to a time to say where something scenic or beautiful once existed but no longer does? There is nothing that governs time travelers to travel back to any point that has to do with their existence, thus, not having the potential to trigger a paradox.

    For example, should my grandson decide to travel back in time, but only to visit some point in Chinese history, and was attacked by some person that he fought off, and possibly killed--for this purpose, a Chinese hobo that would have otherwise died of starvation-- and then came back to our time. As far as his life goes, there is little chance that anything in his life would have changed. I have no Chinese ancestors, and if this person was of little consequence to the world, killing him in order to survive is no big deal (from a time paradox point of view). And so there would be little to no chance of a paradox forming.

    There are other theories and proposed ways to avoid the Grandfather Paradox, if you care to read up on them. Which also leads up to the Novikov Principle that Eris mentioned.

    Relativity does technically allow time travel to be forward, but since it is impossible to travel at the speed of light, it is .... irrelevant. Even if we could travel at or faster than the speed of light, it would only mean that time slows down for us, and keeps at a normal pace for everyone else.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kishiro View Post
    I do believe in the possibility of forward time travel. This seems possible-- or rather would be (relatively) if people could travel at light speed. I am curious about your question in regards to the Fermi Paradox, since it seems to have to do more with extra terrestrials and interstellar travel than it does time travel. Is it possible you've gotten them confused?
    The fermi paradox can be generalized to include time travel: If time travel into the present was feasible, then we should be encountering time travelers from the future.

    The classical solution to the paradox is that it either isn't feasible, or humanity destroys itself before it can realize it. But Novikov's principle and feasible time travel back only so far as the time traveling device has been active also solves the paradox.



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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eris View Post
    But Novikov's principle and feasible time travel back only so far as the time traveling device has been active also solves the paradox.
    Now why exactly does the date of creation of a time travel device matter when time traveling is involved, outside the general fact of significance of its creation? Such a device would in a way make time itself irrelevant, and so long as it worked properly and functioned, traveling to a time previous to it's creation should bare no matter or contribution to the possibility of a paradox.

    It seems to me that the only things that should matter to cause a paradox are certain circumstances or the actions of the humans involved in any given situation where time travel has become a factor. I'm sure someone who has worked on or with the principle more than we have has considered this, but if there is no paradox presented, what's the need for a solution, or the theoretical restrictions of traveling back past a certain point?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kishiro View Post
    Now why exactly does the date of creation of a time travel device matter when time traveling is involved, outside the general fact of significance of its creation? Such a device would in a way make time itself irrelevant, and so long as it worked properly and functioned, traveling to a time previous to it's creation should bare no matter or contribution to the possibility of a paradox.
    Actually, such devices have been hypothesized. I won't try to explain how they work, but it has to do with distorting the fabric of space by running photons in a circle, so it's general relativity.

    It is basically a tunnel in time. Grossly simplified, it looks like a hollow tube. You toss something in on one end, and it arrives at an earlier point on the other end of the tube. Because the machine wasn't active before it was started, there is no way to send something through to before you started it.

    Here's a wiki page. The science behind it is a bit fishy, and I'm not sure it will actually work, but this sort of machine would not give rise to the fermi paradox.
    Last edited by Eris; 09-05-2009 at 11:30 AM.



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    Eris, what do you think about the Back to the Future type approach? A machine that you can travel through time in, which also travels through time itself? So that both you and it move from one point to another, and it was capable of running off of an internal (yet most likely limited and refillable) power source. Say something like the modified De Lorean existed, even if it wasn't mobile, but the afore mentioned attributes I just stated still applied.

    How would that work with or clash with the Fermi Paradox and Novikov Principle? In the mean time, I'll be reading the article you linked.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kishiro View Post
    Eris, what do you think about the Back to the Future type approach? A machine that you can travel through time in, which also travels through time itself? So that both you and it move from one point to another, and it was capable of running off of an internal (yet most likely limited and refillable) power source. Say something like the modified De Lorean existed, even if it wasn't mobile, but the afore mentioned attributes I just stated still applied.

    How would that work with or clash with the Fermi Paradox and Novikov Principle? In the mean time, I'll be reading the article you linked.
    Well, it gives rise to the fermi paradox, violates the Novikov principle, and also violates some very fundamental physical principles, like the conservation of energy. So if such a device was to exist, most physics would have to be proven wrong and rewritten from scratch. Not that that hasn't has happened on several occasions before, but from what we know now, it doesn't seem very likely that that type of time travel could exist.



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    Eh, I can honestly say I don't believe in time travel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ★Chise View Post
    If you believe in Albert Einsteins interpretation of the space time continuum. Then yes Time travel would be possbile. So would worm holes. Scientists are now starting to believe how warped the space time continuum can be when gravity has a negative effect on it. I.E. Black holes and how they function.
    Ok, I feel the need to jump back to this, even though no one really paid it any mind (for valid reasons mostly). I just want to start off by diffusing whatever was implied by including Black Holes in a discussion about time travel. How they function has nothing to do with time travel.

    Here's a brief description of what a black hole is and how it works:
    A black hole is in essence, a whirlpool and a gravity well. It pulls and sucks everything within it's range in. The threshold and limit of that range (typically the outer end) is known as the even horizon. This is when an object such as things from dust and space rocks to light itself become trapped in the gravitational force of the well. To a person looking at it from the outside, seeing an object approach the event horizon and be sucked in would seemingly cause it to stretch out and slow infinitely at the same time. Time isn't necessarily slowing down, it's just that the black hole distorts all matter around it, and is so powerful, that not even light can escape it, which why it can't be see with the naked eye. Now, think of this thing as a giant interstellar trash can and compression chamber. Everything that goes in to it becomes part of what is known as a singularity, which can be summarized as "a point in spacetime in which gravitational forces cause matter to have an infinite density and zero volume". Interestingly enough it is now believe that black holes burn of bits and pieces of themselves during their lives gradually, being the reason for their deaths (I would assume it used to be unknown why they die).

    There is still a lot of speculation about Wormholes. To be honest, I don't know if there has even been one found in space yet. If I'm not mistaken, they are purely hypothetical. Though the concept of time travel itself is hypothetical, but it's easier to discuss based on the rules and laws of physics that we already know and things we already have found to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by ★Chise View Post
    Only if you can jump to the 4th dimension where people believe is where time control exists >.> some people even think there are 4th dimensional beings! A.k.A Ghosts :]
    This is the shorter of two posts dealing with the 4th dimension (kind of) so we'll start with this. The 4th dimension, or the use or travel through it is what makes time travel possible. One could say as Ray did that existing IN the 4th Dimension would allow you to see all instances in time at the same time or at any point that you wish.

    But on to the point for my quoting this post. As P.I.R (Paranormal Investigator & Researcher), I'm just going to say that there is no theory or evidence that would ever suggest or support that ghosts are 4th dimensional beings. The only supernatural/paranormal beings ever conceived throughout history that can see all parts of time have been all powerful deities, such as God/Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah/whatever you want to call him because it's the same deity for all three major religions and their different sects and denominations that are supreme over all aspects of everything.

    I could write so much more on ghosts and the paranormal, but there are other threads for that, and this is about time travel. Unfortunately I need to run for the moment, so I will finish this post via editing it and including quoting and addressing Ray's post.

    EXTENDED EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by RaShayRitto View Post
    disclaimer: i do not claim to have a valid opinion, or even be capable of providing anything meaningful to the dialogue.
    BTW: isnt this a strange choice of forum for such an academic discussion? Sure this is the misc. section but the misc. typically implies time killer/throwaway/just for kicks. I'm just saying if you have an honest interest in this you would have a better chance of getting a good response at a related forum. I'm sure you already knew that but hey, just trying to help a brutha out!
    We used to have a lot of interesting and well versed discussions in Misc. a few years back. It was a tighter ship back then, and much more lively, though it is currently starting to pick up momentum and perk up again. And so perhaps this thread is a blessing! We haven't had a good discussion thread in such a long time. I'm actually excited to be checking and reading posts and replying!

    Quote Originally Posted by RaShayRitto View Post
    to the post above, look up a video called "the tenth dimension" or something like that. it does a good job of explaining things like the 4th dimension in laymans terms (not that you're dumb, just saying). But i'm not so sure one could accomplish ANYTHING in the 4th dimension, it would be a cluttered mess. wouldnt it essentialyl be like the existence you have now, except that you can see the past,present,and future all at once? imagine that one person existed for a total of 5 seconds. in those 5 seconds he walks from one side of a room to the other. if you saw in 4 dimensions, you would see every instance of the man's existence AT THE SAME TIME. now multiply that by a gazillion and convince yourself that you can concoct some way to control time while in that mess.
    Imagining The Tenth Dimension is what you are talking about, and it is a book by Rob Bryanton. I saw this video back in 2006 when it was still in flash format only on the website, before it was available on YouTube. The video talks of string theory for the most part, which includes the possibility of other dimensions based on different actions carried out in every situation so that every possible outcome of every possible combination has it's own dimension (a number higher than any of us could imagine, but according to the video, still not infinite).

    Imagining The Tenth Dimension Part 1
    +
    ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


    Imagining The Tenth Dimension Part 2
    +
    ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


    I do believe that someone would be able to function in the 4th dimension (if that is indeed the one that views our concept of time from the outside), if they could decode and read all the information around or in front of them. It may be impossible for beings like ourselves to be able to take in all that information. Some sort of super intelligence or higher life form may be able to. But it would be an infinite amount of information, so the only practicality to it would be to know how to read it and sift through it at will to find what you want. Trying to commit it to memory would be almost pointless, but more likely impossible. I don't think that the objective would be to be able to control time itself, but control yourself to move in and out of, as well as around or through time, either forwards or backwards.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenny_killer View Post
    That principle interferes with the existence of free will. If probability in any situation, paradox or not, were to reach zero that would negate, I’m sure, much of Quantum physics.
    There's no such thing as free will. There's no such thing as random event either.
    Last edited by 3pleT; 09-06-2009 at 11:45 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 3pleT View Post
    There's no such thing as free will. There's no such thing as random event either.
    There are completely random events in the realm of quantum physics. The notion that enables this is called "incompatible observables". If you know one, you can impossible know the other (the Heisenberg uncertainty principle). One classic example of incompatible observables is position and momentum.

    A better example is the following: There is a property called "spin", the details of what it is are kinda complicated, but it can sort of be likened to the rotation of an electron or a proton or some such. If you know the spin in one direction (say vertically), you can not know the spin horizontally. In fact, if you know the spin vertically, and then measure the spin horizontally, and then re-measure the spin vertically, you will get a completely random value. This can be shown experimentally, and is called the Stern-Gerlach experiment.
    Last edited by Eris; 09-06-2009 at 12:56 PM.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki no iko View Post
    Eh, I can honestly say I don't believe in time travel.
    Assuming the age beneath your avatar is correct, you've been doing it for 17 years. (Props to Eris for that awesome response).


    Quote Originally Posted by 3pleT View Post
    There's no such thing as free will.
    Behaviorism in psychology has a problem with proving this, and it's the closest there every was to any science supporting the notion. Specifically, it couldn't explain why humans so readily attached subjective value to non-essential things, as well as remained unable to predict with an acceptably high degree of accuracy the behavior of a person given known background details and a given scenario.


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    Last edited by Forgotten Show; 09-06-2009 at 02:43 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eris View Post
    There are completely random events in the realm of quantum physics. The notion that enables this is called "incompatible observables". If you know one, you can impossible know the other (the Heisenberg uncertainty principle). One classic example of incompatible observables is position and momentum.

    A better example is the following: There is a property called "spin", the details of what it is are kinda complicated, but it can sort of be likened to the rotation of an electron or a proton or some such. If you know the spin in one direction (say vertically), you can not know the spin horizontally. In fact, if you know the spin vertically, and then measure the spin horizontally, and then re-measure the spin vertically, you will get a completely random value. This can be shown experimentally, and is called the Stern-Gerlach experiment.
    Unknowable and unpredictable still fit under pseudo-random. Every action has a cause and a reaction. If you knew all the causes in their entirety, you would know the action in its entirety. In other words: everything is determined by something and if we don't know what, we like to refer to it as random.

    Yes, I reviewed the issue and concluded that hard determinism is the only view on free will and randomness made of common sense rather than what people like to believe.


  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3pleT View Post
    Unknowable and unpredictable still fit under pseudo-random. Every action has a cause and a reaction. If you knew all the causes in their entirety, you would know the action in its entirety. In other words: everything is determined by something and if we don't know what, we like to refer to it as random.
    This is just wrong. Quantum random is true random, not pseudo-random. Pseudo random has hidden variables, so if you know everything about a pseudo random system, you know the next outcome, say you know exactly how someone throws a die, you can tell how it will land. But this is not the case with quantum randomness. Quantum physics does not have hidden variables (this is proven without a doubt).

    When a state is unknowable in quantum physics, it isn't just that you can't tell what it is -- it's much deeper than that. It doesn't have an exact state. It has a whole continuum of states, with corresponding probabilities, and it is not until the waveform collapses (you measure them), they get a value.

    The double-slit experiment illustrates this: If you send a beam of electrons through a double slit, you get an interference pattern on the screen. This is because it passes through both slits at the same time, and the waveform interacts with itself to form a pattern on the screen. But if you measure which slit it goes through, you collapse the waveform and it only passes through one slit, and you get no interference pattern.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3pleT View Post
    Yes, I reviewed the issue and concluded that hard determinism is the only view on free will and randomness made of common sense rather than what people like to believe.
    Free will has precious little to do with determinism, though. It doesn't make any difference if we're slaves of determinism or of random fluctuations, since neither of them are things we have any effect on.
    Last edited by Eris; 09-06-2009 at 02:59 PM.



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