Lelouch(Zero) - Villain or Hero of Justice?

[proEuphie]

Quote: "
So you claim that mutilating a website is even worse than having someone helpless at the feet of your two giant robots and killing them instead of capturing them."

No.

I dont.

You seem to think that everyone, like yourself, has ability to differenciate real life from anime.

But anime characters are not "someone" they are ink and pixels of color. Therefore, the death of insignificant secondary characters who just managed to get on my nerves every time they opened their mouth(Euphie) MAKES ME GIGGLE.

And mutilating a website is worse than killing an anime character. Im sure every one in the world can live with the animated bombing/shooting/poisoning/impaling/vaporization/spiritual department of an animated character.

If you feel bad for anyone, feel bad for their voice actor, who was out of a job after they died.

Quote: "I didn't. I lost interest in the story. What suspense can there be when the character who has ninety percent of all the goodness in the cast of dozens has already been murdered."

THEN WHY THE HECK ARE YOU IN THIS FORUM?
WATCH THE WHOLE SERIES BEFORE YOU INSTIGATE A WAR ABOUT IT.
DUR!

You obviously are so close minded that you would never listen to someone's half of the story. Code Geass is not a show for children, which is what your are acting like. You remind me of Nina. Geez. Do you sit at home screaming "ZEEEEEEEEERRRRROOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!" ?

Euphie wants you to pwease stop embarrassing her 3:>

About not seeing the second season, see my post # 50 above. Also see it for my response to your saying that we are supposed to appreciate Lelouch's last act of kindness.

Wolfgirl90 criticizes me for calling you frightening in your indifference to the evil of Lelouch, Of course I was merely responding to you callling me frightening.

You say that killing an amime character is no big deal and not as bad as messing up a thread. But I keep saying that what Lelouch did was murder in the worst degree, or would be if done by a real person to a real person. I discuss the real-life ethics of doing what Lelouch did and you just say go away we don't care its just a story.

So have you ever posted anywhere expressing a lot of emotion about Lelouch and Code Geass, a post in which you take it seriously despite it being just a story?

Euphemia was not an insignificant secondary character, except in screen time. She was the most important character because she was the only character who was good, because she was more good than all the other characters put together. Without her the series is just evil people fighting other evil people.

So you giggled when someone good and noble was murdered, merely because she had a voice or a way of speaking you find irritating? How mature. How sympathetic.

Don't respond unless you want me to respond to your response. Good bye.

[Kamen Rider V3 Blue]

God this ****'s still going on?

[TrueTears]

I think Lelouch is good, he sacrificed himself at the end to bring peace to the world. Yes ofcourse he caused the death of many other innocent people but who can change the world without inflicting pain?

[Oyashenron]

This might sound weird, but I was pretty much cool with everything he did throughout both series. I figure being a little heavy handed as the Emperor was justified because it keeps people from hurting each other and committing crimes, just so long as you don't interfere with the lives of good, honest people, what's wrong with that? So I see him as a non-traditional hero, but absolutely a champion of justice. Even without the Xanatos Gambit, he would have been justified.

[+Namiko+]

QUOTE: "murder of Euphemia"

Did you ever stop to think that maybe killing her was the more merciful thing to do?
That Geass had her in it's grasp and she was suffering, unable to understand why thoughts of murder were in her head.

Then, if she ever broke the Geass, what would she do? She would hear of the people that she killed, and even if they told her it wasn't her fault, she wouldn't be able to live with her self

it would break her heart. I can't see someone as innocent as Euphie living with herself after that, she would blame herself and might have even killed herself.

If she never came out of the Geass she would be in prison for the rest of her life.

Would you rather have her dead and peaceful or alive and suffering? If you really are as big a euphie fan as you say, you'll see my point.

[proEuphie]

QUOTE: "murder of Euphemia"

Did you ever stop to think that maybe killing her was the more merciful thing to do?
That Geass had her in it's grasp and she was suffering, unable to understand why thoughts of murder were in her head.

In my opinion the term "mercy Killing" is an oxymoron. I believe that death is the worst fate imaginable and life is infinitely better than death.

As a resident of the US you are probably a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew. Thus you would more or less believe in an all-good. all-kind, and all-merciful God who created heaven, a place of eternal joy, and hell, a place of eternal torture, for the afterlife.

Many people wonder how an all-merciful God can punish people for finite crimes with the infinite punishment of hell.

It seems to me that the only answer must be that in the eyes of God he is rewarding the saints and the sinners equally well by giving them an eternal afterlife in heaven or hell, because to God existence is infinitely better than nonexistence. The difference between the joys of heaven and the pains of hell is infinitesimal to God, since to Him both conditions are equally and infinitely superior to nonexistence. No doubt He only created the difference between the joys of heaven and the pains of hell to impress mortals with the benefits of being good.

But if you think that you know better than God and it is better to be dead than to live and suffer a bit, go on believing it.

But you may say that the choice is between having Euphemia live, and perhaps suffer, for decades or else go straight to heaven which would be happier for her. But if you really believe that heaven is so much better than life that it would be better to kill someone than let them suffer through life, shouldn't you locate all the innocent children and all the good people you can find and kill them right now so that they can skip decades of suffering in this life and go straight to heaven?

But as you may have noticed religious teachers say that it is evil to kill good people, which is the same thing that atheistic persons who don't believe in an afterlife would believe. They don't teach that it is good to kill good people to send them to heaven. Apparently religious people are expected to think that death is just as evil as atheists think death is.

If theologians discuss this matter for, say, five thousand years, and come up with a good answer which explains if there are any circumstances when it is right to take account of the existence of heaven and kill a good person to send them to heaven, and if brilliant theologians continue to criticize and attack that answer for another five thousand years or so and fail to disprove it, then you could have confidence in believing that you know when it is right to prefer to let someone suffer in this life and when it is right to kill them to send them to heaven.

But that is at least ten thousand years in the future. In the meantime you have to accept that taking account of what you think will happen to someone in the after life is not permissible when deciding whether or not to kill them. You have to accept that you have to act like you are an atheist and believe that death is oblivion and nothingness which is infinitely worse than anything which can happen to someone during life.

Euphemia did not suffer much when she was controlled by the geass. She suffered when she struggled painfully against it for a dozen seconds. It is possible that the geass command alternately stimulated her please center in the brain to offer her incredibly strong pleasure if she agreed to kill, and stimulated her pain center to give her samples of the pain she would suffer until she gave in and accepted the command to kill. Possibly Euphemia suffered thousands of times as much pain in a single second as a normal person suffers in a lifetime.

But once she was defeated by the geass command Euphemia did not seem to enjoy herself or suffer much. She seemed to be like a person concentrating on a task. Some people say that concentrating on a task is a pleasant experience in itself. But anyway, she did not seem to be suffering or enjoying herself much while controlled by the geass command.

When Kallen bumped her nightmare Euphemia seemed scared and angry, much like a normal person would react to something potentially dangerous interrupting them when concentrating on a task. It didn't seem like Euphemia was suffering a lot and would welcome death to end it.

Then, if she ever broke the Geass, what would she do? She would hear of the people that she killed, and even if they told her it wasn't her fault, she wouldn't be able to live with her self

it would break her heart. I can't see someone as innocent as Euphie living with herself after that, she would blame herself and might have even killed herself.

If she never came out of the Geass she would be in prison for the rest of her life.

Would you rather have her dead and peaceful or alive and suffering? If you really are as big a euphie fan as you say, you'll see my point.

I say that Euphemia would be able to live with herself. She wouldn't be happy all the time, but she wasn't happy all the time before given the geass command either. You seem to think that if life is not all bliss you might as well die.

And as I have written before, normal, ordinary, people feel more guilt the more wrong things they do. But really good people, like Euphemia, and really bad people, like most Code Geass cast members, feel guilt in inverse proportion to what they should feel. The really evil feel very little guilt and the really good feel a lot of guilt.

So I say that Euphemia being so innocent, would already feel a lot more guilt than most people do. For example, guilt by association just in shame for being a Britannian, a member of the imperial family, and a human being. Having made important decisions, choosing between the biggest of several goods and the smallest of several evils, she knows that some evil will come out of even the best decisions she makes, and so she feels guilty for every decision she has ever made. I say that probably even the guilt from the massacre would add just a little bit to the burden of guilt she already bears. And she still manages to have as much fun as most of the other characters despite that heavy burden of guilt.

So you say that it would be better for Lelouch to kill Euphemia in order to prevent her from becoming so guilty and unhappy she might (might, not would) kill herself some time in the future? Compared to your statement the classic "We had to destroy the village to save it" actually makes a lot more sense. It is better to possibly die in the future than certainly die now.

A lot of people will tell you that life is suffering. And they exaggerate a lot But there is a lot of suffering in even the best life. You have to get through the suffering to enjoy the good parts.

Dead people are not peaceful, except and unless they have a peaceful time in the afterlife. But I have already explained that any Christian, Muslim, or Jew has to discount someone's possible fate in the afterlife and calculate like an atheist who does not believe in the afterlife when deciding if someone would be better off dead or alive. And an atheist would say you have be alive to enjoy peace. To enjoy peace you have to be at least semiconscious, like someone who is sleeping. So anyone who is alive is more peaceful, even while being tortured, than anyone who is dead.

I would always see someone I like alive and sometimes suffering and sometimes enjoying life than dead.

[+Namiko+]

Quote: "In my opinion the term "mercy Killing" is an oxymoron. I believe that death is the worst fate imaginable and life is infinitely better than death."
There are much worse things than death. Being alone. Having everyone you've ever loved taken away. That is unending pain.

"But if you think that you know better than God and it is better to be dead than to live and suffer a bit, go on believing it."

Dont bring God into this. I am a Christian, but I'm not sure if I beleive in hell. And that has nothing to do with it.


"shouldn't you locate all the innocent children and all the good people you can find and kill them right now so that they can skip decades of suffering in this life and go straight to heaven?"

Are you nuts?

I say that Euphemia would be able to live with herself

You must really want her to suffer.


And, God or not, some people would rather just not exist than go on living. Its not about heaven. Its about not hurting anymore.


I have come to realize in my time here that there are people on this earth that cannot be changed. These close minded people who refuse to go by anything other than what they initially thought. People who would rather start a war than admit being wrong. People who HAVE started wars and killed thousands of lives so they don't have to admit they are wrong. I have considered my point and tried to look at it from your point of view.

I beleive you are one of those people.

[kimi no kioku]

1) Doing good deeds is not necessarily enough to redeem you for your previous bad deeds.

2) yes, I can judge Lelouch for the Euphy thing because:

A) He was planning something very similar, making Euphie shoot him to start the revolution, and then coming back to life to awe the Japanese. He was planning to trick thousands of Japanese who wanted to live into dying for the revolution. That was a plan for mass murder. And he was probably planning to kill Euphie too. If he had a plan to save her he could have adapted it to the similar circumstances of the massacre and saved her.

And he gloated about making her shoot him (like a melodrama villain - a subtle hint from the producers?) which was a cause of his later giving her the geass command to kill the Japanese. Thus everyone killed in the Fuji Massacre and the Black Rebellion was murdered by Lelouch, since those deaths were a direct result of his earlier plan for mass murder.

And thus all the millions killed by the use of F.R.E.I.J.A. in the second season were murdered by Lelouch, since the Fuji Massacre, the killing of Euphemia, Nina's attempts to make a F.R.E.I.J.A. weapon, her recruitment into the F.R.E.I.J.A. project, and the perfection of F.R.E.I.J.A. in time to kill millions in the wars of the second season, all flowed from his plan to make Euphie shoot him and spark a revolution.

B) I can judge him for the Euphy thing because shooting Euphy was deliberate, not an accident. If it was an inevitable result of accidentally giving her the geass command it could be considered a part of the accident, but it was hardly a direct or inevitable result of giving her the command.

Once her nightmare was destroyed he could have picked her up in one hand of his nightmare and carried her around like King Kong with Ann Darrow. If he encountered Britannian nightmares a live princess in the hand would be worth two blasters in the holster to make them surrender.

Instead he inexplicably let her pick up and keep a machine gun and then left the armored safety of his nightmare to walk toward her. That was treason against his cause unless he felt absolutely certain that even a geass command could not make her shoot him unless he gave some sign of interfering with her mission.

So if he was perfectly safe around Euphemia he could have captured her or tricked her into becoming his prisoner as fast, as easy, and a safely as he killed her. Once she was a prisoner she could have been confined and been less danger to anyone than any free person in the world would have been. So killing her was an utterly senseless murder. And we can and must blame him for that.

Forgivness is important though. What happened to Euphy was an accident, and Lelouch changed his mind. He wasn't going to do anything to her. I think dying for peace was a good payoff for what he did. They say if someone truly wants forgivness, you have to forgive them.
Namiko is completely right.

[CrazyCosplys]

Ithink that this qwestion is almoast imposibul to anser Lelouch never actually decided what side Zero was on Zero was nutral nither good or bad. Lelouch just wanted to change the world and make it a better place for his sister. Zero was just a symbol so that people would listen to him.

[OtakuInu!!!]

I think he's neither a hero nor a villain. Because in order to get his goals for peace he killed a lot of people in the process.

[wolfgirl90]

As a resident of the US you are probably a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew. Thus you would more or less believe in an all-good. all-kind, and all-merciful God who created heaven, a place of eternal joy, and hell, a place of eternal torture, for the afterlife.

Many people wonder how an all-merciful God can punish people for finite crimes with the infinite punishment of hell.

It seems to me that the only answer must be that in the eyes of God he is rewarding the saints and the sinners equally well by giving them an eternal afterlife in heaven or hell, because to God existence is infinitely better than nonexistence. The difference between the joys of heaven and the pains of hell is infinitesimal to God, since to Him both conditions are equally and infinitely superior to nonexistence. No doubt He only created the difference between the joys of heaven and the pains of hell to impress mortals with the benefits of being good.

Oh, Goddess are you still arguing about this? Alright, I know I said that I was done with you, but you have said some things that only make me that you really are a troll. Oh, and for the BILLIONTH time, replay directly to me if you plan to criticize me (whether you think I will actually answer or not), don't merely call me out. I shouldn't have to tell you this over and over again.

Just to point out, congratulations on simplifying the believes of Americans to 3 religions and making assumptions based on those beliefs (which is something that you are REALLY good at). Despite being American, I am actually Wiccan, so this whole thing about God and heaven and hell falls of the wayside for me, as if these things could be used as arguments for anything (if you can imagine, I tone out whenever someone even tries). Of course, you are ALSO playing God by deciding who should live (Euphemia..and really no one else) and who should die (Lelouch, C.C, Nina, every other Britannian and any other character who is not Euphemia), effectively playing around the value of a human life. Oh yes, the Japanese need to be saved but God forbid that we kill the ONE crazy chick who is causing their deaths. I bet if Lelouch was the one shooting, controlled by the Geass of some other person (hypothetically, of course), I bet you would have no problem with him being killed.

Can you say double standard? I think you can. Despite your little "all life is sacred" and "life is better than death" stance that you are trying to force feed us, you determine the value of a life and who should live/die all the time and I know there are people and characters that you are not afraid to say should die. Would you like me to get the quote where you said that Naraku from InuYasha should be dragged by a bunch of horses until he died?

Now, no one is saying that death is better life (that is not even an argument). However, if a person is basically a traumitized zombie because they realized that they are responsible for the deaths of THOUSANDS of innocent people, people that they were trying to save, then are they really alive? Of course, this conundrum was brought up in Code Geass and if you actually WATCHED the ENTIRE series, you might have figured this out.

But once she was defeated by the geass command Euphemia did not seem to enjoy herself or suffer much. She seemed to be like a person concentrating on a task. Some people say that concentrating on a task is a pleasant experience in itself. But anyway, she did not seem to be suffering or enjoying herself much while controlled by the geass command.

You are joking right? We are not talking about her suffering while she was being controlled by the Geass (of course, according to you, her sub conscience was fighting the whole time, so she could have been suffering...again, according to you). We are talking about the potential suffering that she will face IF the Geass wore off (which I don't think she did). She would be struck with the knowledge that she is personally responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands of people, people she was JUST trying to help. Being the innocent person that she is, I can only imagine that she would lose her freaking mind (if not kill herself), not shrug it off as simply another burden to bare.

Dead people are not peaceful, except and unless they have a peaceful time in the afterlife. But I have already explained that any Christian, Muslim, or Jew has to discount someone's possible fate in the afterlife and calculate like an atheist who does not believe in the afterlife when deciding if someone would be better off dead or alive. And an atheist would say you have be alive to enjoy peace. To enjoy peace you have to be at least semiconscious, like someone who is sleeping. So anyone who is alive is more peaceful, even while being tortured, than anyone who is dead.

And I agree that life is not easy and one has to go through some suffering to enjoy some of the good parts of it. However, that does not mean that we should LET people suffer. Yeah, life is not fun, but you seriously think that Euphemia would not suffer knowing that she was DIRECTLY responsible for deaths of thousands of people, that she wouldn't totally lose her freaking mind or even kill herself (assuming that she wasn't killed before)? If you don't then you are quite the naive person.

Well, I already think that you naive, since you apparently lost your cool with the death of character character (whose death occurred 2 years ago and who was subsequently brought back for TWO separate spin-offs...why the hell are you still arguing exactly?) and because you believe that life-long, never ending, mind-blowing, soul-crushing torture is better than death because, hey, at least their heart is still beating.

But now that that is out, you really need to stop or make a nice little thread where you ask people about how they felt about Euphemia's death and argue about it there. Its getting just a little bit (VERY) annoying and you are beginning to look like a troll or someone who is terribly immature (which trolls are by simple definition).

[kimi no kioku]

Oh, Goddess are you still arguing about this? Alright, I know I said that I was done with you, but you have said some things that only make me that you really are a troll. Oh, and for the BILLIONTH time, replay directly to me if you plan to criticize me (whether you think I will actually answer or not), don't merely call me out. I shouldn't have to tell you this over and over again.

Just to point out, congratulations on simplifying the believes of Americans to 3 religions and making assumptions based on those beliefs (which is something that you are REALLY good at). Despite being American, I am actually Wiccan, so this whole thing about God and heaven and hell falls of the wayside for me, as if these things could be used as arguments for anything (if you can imagine, I tone out whenever someone even tries). Of course, you are ALSO playing God by deciding who should live (Euphemia..and really no one else) and who should die (Lelouch, C.C, Nina, every other Britannian and any other character who is not Euphemia), effectively playing around the value of a human life. Oh yes, the Japanese need to be saved but God forbid that we kill the ONE crazy chick who is causing their deaths. I bet if Lelouch was the one shooting, controlled by the Geass of some other person (hypothetically, of course), I bet you would have no problem with him being killed.

Can you say double standard? I think you can. Despite your little "all life is sacred" and "life is better than death" stance that you are trying to force feed us, you determine the value of a life and who should live/die all the time and I know there are people and characters that you are not afraid to say should die. Would you like me to get the quote where you said that Naraku from InuYasha should be dragged by a bunch of horses until he died?

Now, no one is saying that death is better life (that is not even an argument). However, if a person is basically a traumitized zombie because they realized that they are responsible for the deaths of THOUSANDS of innocent people, people that they were trying to save, then are they really alive? Of course, this conundrum was brought up in Code Geass and if you actually WATCHED the ENTIRE series, you might have figured this out.



You are joking right? We are not talking about her suffering while she was being controlled by the Geass (of course, according to you, her sub conscience was fighting the whole time, so she could have been suffering...again, according to you). We are talking about the potential suffering that she will face IF the Geass wore off (which I don't think she did). She would be struck with the knowledge that she is personally responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands of people, people she was JUST trying to help. Being the innocent person that she is, I can only imagine that she would lose her freaking mind (if not kill herself), not shrug it off as simply another burden to bare.



And I agree that life is not easy and one has to go through some suffering to enjoy some of the good parts of it. However, that does not mean that we should LET people suffer. Yeah, life is not fun, but you seriously think that Euphemia would not suffer knowing that she was DIRECTLY responsible for deaths of thousands of people, that she wouldn't totally lose her freaking mind or even kill herself (assuming that she wasn't killed before)? If you don't then you are quite the naive person.

Well, I already think that you naive, since you apparently lost your cool with the death of character character (whose death occurred 2 years ago and who was subsequently brought back for TWO separate spin-offs...why the hell are you still arguing exactly?) and because you believe that life-long, never ending, mind-blowing, soul-crushing torture is better than death because, hey, at least their heart is still beating.

But now that that is out, you really need to stop or make a nice little thread where you ask people about how they felt about Euphemia's death and argue about it there. Its getting just a little bit (VERY) annoying and you are beginning to look like a troll or someone who is terribly immature (which trolls are by simple definition).

It's useless. I'm starting to think pro Euphie is Nina.

[blackrosetwilight]

It's useless. I'm starting to think pro Euphie is Nina.

Awwwww come on people proEupy is worser than Nina, at least Nina got over Euphy's death and putting away her hatred to help Lelouch rid the world of those sakurite nukes' and besides that she got pretty cute in season 2

[kimi no kioku]

Awwwww come on people proEupy is worser than Nina, at least Nina got over Euphy's death and putting away her hatred to help Lelouch rid the world of those sakurite nukes' and besides that she got pretty cute in season 2

Lol, I guess you're right.

[proEuphie]

Quote: "In my opinion the term "mercy Killing" is an oxymoron. I believe that death is the worst fate imaginable and life is infinitely better than death."
There are much worse things than death. Being alone. Having everyone you've ever loved taken away. That is unending pain.

Pain is better than death.

"But if you think that you know better than God and it is better to be dead than to live and suffer a bit, go on believing it."
Dont bring God into this. I am a Christian, but I'm not sure if I beleive in hell. And that has nothing to do with it.

I am saying that if an all-merciful God really did create a hell of ever lasting torment for sinners, he would only have done so because the torments of hell are infinitely better than nothingness and non existence. Thus if you are a Christian you must accept that even the tortures of hell, much worse than anything you can suffer in life, are better than the end of your existence would be.

"shouldn't you locate all the innocent children and all the good people you can find and kill them right now so that they can skip decades of suffering in this life and go straight to heaven?"

Are you nuts?

NO. I am being logical. If a good person is certain to go the heaven if he dies now but if he lives might become evil and go to hell when he does die, and if heaven is much better than hell, then it is perfectly logical to kill him now so he will be certain to go to heaven.

There are at least three reactions to this idea:

1) Humans imagined God and attributed their ethical codes to his commands.

2) God actually decreed that we should kill the good and innocent so they will be certain to go to heaven,and protect the evil so that will will have as long as possible to repent and avoid hell. But over the centuries people have altered his commands to ones which they find more palatable: save the good and kill the evil.

3) It would be right to kill the good to send them to heaven, and save the wicked so that they might repent, but for some divine reason God decreed that we should behave like a good atheist who believed that death was the end of everything would: save the good and kill (or otherwise punish) the wicked.

Since A) by creating hell an all-merciful God would be proving that even tortures worse than anything possible on earth would be better than ceasing to exist.
And B) Atheists believe that after death people cease to exist.
And C) God has decreed that his followers should follow an ethical code that an atheist who did not believe in any afterlife might follow: protect the innocent and kill (or otherwise punish) the evil.

Thus when you wonder if it would be better for someone to suffer in life or die, you have to ignore the possibiiity that they might be happy in the afterlife, since God has apparently decreed that Christians, Muslims, and Jews follow the same ethical code that an atheist who believes that death is the end of everything might follow. And by creating hell God has apparently shown that suffering much worse than possible in life is still better than the end of existence. Thus any Christian, Muslim, or Jew who believes in hell has to believe that everyone is better off alive than dead.

But suppose that you are right that it sometimes is possible for someone to be better off dead. If so, a trained psychologist would have to study a person intensely for weeks, months, or years before making such a decision. But if Lelouch decided that Euphie was better off dead he did so after being with her for only a few hours in the last seven years, almost the last half of her life. I say that it is evil to decide on such little evidence that someone is better off dead,and anyone who thinks that he has done so is probably just lying to himself because he wants to kill someone for other reasons.

And even if Lelouch correctly believed that Euphemia was better off dead, it wold still be his duty to capture her instead of killing her. By capturing and imprisoning her, on the grounds that she was not guilty by reason of insanity, when all the Japanese wanted her killed Lelouch would be setting an example of mercy and fair judgment that would go down in history and perhaps influence thousands of people to spare thousands of persons they would have otherwise killed. A lot of defenders of Lelouch say that the good of the many outweighs the good of one and so Euphemia had to be killed. I say that if the good of the many outweighs the good of the one Euphemia had to be captured and kept alive no matter how much she suffered.

I say that Euphemia would be able to live with herself

You must really want her to suffer.


And, God or not, some people would rather just not exist than go on living. Its not about heaven. Its about not hurting anymore.

And sometimes what people want is not the same as what is good for them. And I did not hear Euphemia begging to die before Lelouch shot her.

And yes, because I want Euphemia to live and enjoy life and be happy, I do want her to suffer. I want her to suffer and enjoy life, preferably with as much enjoyment as possible. But whether someone has a lot of suffering and a little joy, or a lot of joy and a little suffering, everyone must face at least some suffering to enjoy the pleasures of life.

I have come to realize in my time here that there are people on this earth that cannot be changed. These close minded people who refuse to go by anything other than what they initially thought. People who would rather start a war than admit being wrong. People who HAVE started wars and killed thousands of lives so they don't have to admit they are wrong. I have considered my point and tried to look at it from your point of view.

I beleive you are one of those people.

I think that Lelouch is one of those people.

I am not as close minded as you think. For months I thought that Lelouch was basically good.

I ignored his murder of Clovis who was begging for life.

I ignored his careless triggering of a landslide which wiped out enemy Britiannian soldiers and "friendly" JLF fighters and destroyed the town of Narita, killing hundreds of civilians --his attitude contrasts greatly with Euphemia's at the same battle.

I ignored his blowing up a ship with the remaining JLF leaders to get rid of his competition for leadership of the Japanese rebels.

I ignored his pointing a gun at Euphemia in "Black Knight" and "Island of the Gods".

And now I feel so stupid and dirty. I feel like a follower of Hitler or Stalin or Mussolini who made excuses for every crime of his leader, until finally he had to face the truth and realize that he had been supporting a monster of evil.

After I saw Lelouch shoot Euphemia when it would have been so easy to capture her, I soon realized that he had committed a crime.

It is never right to kill someone you can capture alive as fast, easy, and safely as you could kill them. That is not merely evil but it is obviously evil. It is not obviously evil to fight for a cause that millions of people believe is right, no matter how evil that cause actually is. If it was obvious that a cause was evil, very few of the millions who support it would do so. Fighting for or against Britannia may be good or evil, but neither is obviously evil since millions of people convinced themselves that each cause was right, which they couldn't do if the evilness of their cause was obvious..

But walking up to someone who loves and trusts who and doesn't suspect anything and killing her when you can easily and safely capture her and keep her confined so that she would not be dangerous is so obviously evil that no matter how often Lelouch's defenders try to justify it I just can't believe that they really mean it.

You say I don't change my opinions. Soon after I saw episode 23 I changed my opinions about Lelouch drastically. He went from hero to Zero in my opinion.

But you went on believing in him even after seeing that same murder. You went on believing that Lelouch was good even after seeing the geass directorate massacre in the second season, And perhaps a lot of other things that Lelouch did in the second season were as obviously evil as that.

So I say that you are the one who refuses to change your opinions and are sure that you are right.

[proEuphie]

Awwwww come on people proEupy is worser than Nina, at least Nina got over Euphy's death and putting away her hatred to help Lelouch rid the world of those sakurite nukes' and besides that she got pretty cute in season 2

How can I be worse than Nina? She invented a weapon which she knew would probably be used to kill a lot of people. And it was used to kill tens of millions of innocent people, most of them people that Nina had no reason to seek revenge on.

And then she worked with Lelouch, the one person she had the most reason to to kill, to achive a common goal. And apparently she was not prepared and ready to kill him the instant that goal was achieved and missed her chance.

Like Khan Singh in Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan she had a terrible aim and killed everyone except the one perso she wanted most to kill.

But I haven't killed anybody.

All I am trying to do is convince you that killing Euphemia was obvoiusly evil and did not have the slightest justification. And that nobody should ever get the least bit of pleasure from watching that terrible, evil, series Code Geass.

Defending Nina by saying she got cute in season 2 is really lame. Most of the evil characters in Code Geass, such as Lelouch, Suzaku, CC, Kallen, Cornelia, Viletta, Rollo, etc. etc. were cute and innocent looking.

[proEuphie]

Oh, Goddess are you still arguing about this? Alright, I know I said that I was done with you, but you have said some things that only make me that you really are a troll. Oh, and for the BILLIONTH time, replay directly to me if you plan to criticize me (whether you think I will actually answer or not), don't merely call me out. I shouldn't have to tell you this over and over again.

You really think you are the center of the universe. My post # 56 which you quote is my reply to Namiko's post # 55. She responded with post # 57 and I responded to that with post # 65. I was not "calllling you out" by writing to Namiko, though I thought that you might possibly be interested. I was writing to Namiko.

Just to point out, congratulations on simplifying the believes of Americans to 3 religions and making assumptions based on those beliefs (which is something that you are REALLY good at). Despite being American, I am actually Wiccan, so this whole thing about God and heaven and hell falls of the wayside for me, as if these things could be used as arguments for anything (if you can imagine, I tone out whenever someone even tries). Of course, you are ALSO playing God by deciding who should live (Euphemia..and really no one else) and who should die (Lelouch, C.C, Nina, every other Britannian and any other character who is not Euphemia), effectively playing around the value of a human life. Oh yes, the Japanese need to be saved but God forbid that we kill the ONE crazy chick who is causing their deaths. I bet if Lelouch was the one shooting, controlled by the Geass of some other person (hypothetically, of course), I bet you would have no problem with him being killed.

I just checked and over 76 percent of Americans are Christians. Thus when I wrote that Namiko (not Wolfgirl) was probably a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, I was correct since there would be much more than a fifty percent chance that she (Namiko) belonged to one of those religions.

I didn't say that only Euphemia should live. As far as I know, out of the dozens of characters in the series, Euphemia, Milly, and Rivalez never did anything evil.

And of course I would not want the sometimes evil minors such as Kaguya, Tianzi, Rolo, Nunnally, etc. killed if they could be confined for the safety of others - just as I would not want sixteen-year-old Euphemia to be killed even if I believed she was guilty of the massacre.

As for the adult evil characters they deserve to die but imprisoning them would be just as good to protect the world.

But this accounts for only a few dozen out of billions of people in the world of Code Geass. I am sure that there are tens of millions of criminals, and many evil leaders with tens of millions of followers in armies and governments who support their evil. And all those evil people should be killed or imprisoned for the safety of the world. Probably less than one percent of the people in the code Geass world should be killed or imprisoned or fired from their jobs or otherwise disgraced for the safety of the world.

So I didn't write that only Euphemia should live and everyone else in the world should die.

And what do you mean by saying I say god forbid that we kill the ONE crazy chic who is killing the Japanese people. Tens or hundreds or thousands (you once wrote about hundreds and hundreds of them) of Britannian soldiers obeyed Euphemia's massacre order and were killing Japanese many times as fast as Euphemia. Sane but EVIL Britannian men and chics. Finding the best way to stop them - such as using Euphemia as a hostage - was the way to save Japanese lives fast.

Or did you mean that Euphie was causing all of their deaths by ordering the massacre? In that case again capturing Euphemia to use as a hostage was the fastest way to stop the massacre and save as many Japanese lives as possible. It can be argued that Lelouch murdered Japanese people by killing Euphie instead of using her as a hostage.

And I do say god forbid killing a crazy chic who started a massacre if she could be stopped by capture just as fast, just as easy, and just as safely as Euphemia could have been captured. If an allied soldier could have captured Adolf Hitler as easy as Euphemia could have been captured it would have been murder for him to kill Hitler instead of capturing him for trial and execution or whatever dire fate representatives of the allied peoples decided to inflict upon him.

And I would have a problem with killing Lelouch to save people if he was controlled by a gesss command or demonic possession or mind control when he was ten, or twelve, or fourteen, or sixteen, at the time. But if he was seventeen or eighteen (in the alternate universe of the aired series) I would have a lot less interest in saving him, since he committed a lot of crimes at those ages. But even though my emotions would say "go ahead and shoot" my logic would tell me that it is never right to kill someone if it would be as safe, as easy, and as fast to capture them as it would have been for Lelouch to capture Euphemia.

And if this was after he killed Euphemia and/or ordered the geass directorate massacre I would want him captured for trial and execution for those crimes.

Can you say double standard? I think you can. Despite your little "all life is sacred" and "life is better than death" stance that you are trying to force feed us, you determine the value of a life and who should live/die all the time and I know there are people and characters that you are not afraid to say should die. Would you like me to get the quote where you said that Naraku from InuYasha should be dragged by a bunch of horses until he died?

Naraku from Inuyasha killed so many humans that early in the series I only counted and kept track of the entire villages he wiped out. Later I realized that I had lost track of the villages. Naraku was constantly sending hundreds of his fellow demons to their deaths in suicide attacks to distract the heroes (who must be among the most violent teenagers in all of television). I think that if any fantasy character deserves a horrible death it is Naraku.

And of course it would probably take an atomic bomb, ten terrible magic spells, being burned alive, being eaten by dragons, and several other forms of death to kill such a powerful demon as Naraku. And its not like my words are going to inspire a lot of people to go looking for incredibly dangerous demons to lynch. But thank you for reminding me that I am not always entirely consistent. By the way, I am not nearly as shocked by the villages which Naraku slaughtered as I would have been if Inuysaha the protagonist had massacred one.

Can you say "Double standard?" A lot of "Lelouch lovers" make excuse for and defend the geass directorate massacre which he ordered when in control of his mind and body. And they also try to justify killing Euphemia who had ordered a similar massacre while controlled by a geass command --even though if properly confined she would have been a lot more harmless than Lelouch who was probably more or less directly responsible for millions of deaths later in the series.

Now, no one is saying that death is better life (that is not even an argument). However, if a person is basically a traumitized zombie because they realized that they are responsible for the deaths of THOUSANDS of innocent people, people that they were trying to save, then are they really alive? Of course, this conundrum was brought up in Code Geass and if you actually WATCHED the ENTIRE series, you might have figured this out.

So if you were assigned to do something abut the traumatized survivors of a catastrophe suffering from survivor's guilt would you line them up against a wall and shoot them to end their suffering? You really seem to think that mental stress and guilt is a terrible agonizing thing. But does anyone ever scream in agony at a guilt feeling the way they do when being tortured? And many people who are being tortured refuse to say or do something that will end their suffering by getting themselves killed. And many other people chose to commit suicide to escape from much lesser physical or mental pain than other people patiently endure.

A person is really alive if they have a functioning mind. And no matter how bad their present situation is they might have an improved situation in the future. So are you saying that at some point in the second season someone discussed if Euphemia was better off dead or alive? If so, why should I accept their opinions? Even if Cornelia, Suzaku, and Nina gave up seeking vengeance for Euphemia, it would probably be a subconscious rationalization of their failure on their parts.

By the way, do you think that Suzaku is better off dead than living with all his guilt for killing his father, and for using F.R.E.I.J.A. to kill millions of people he had been trying to save or serve, for being too much and not enough obsessed with avenging Euphemia, etc. etc? If you think that Suzaku is better off alive, how do you decide that he suffers less from his guilt than Euphemia would? Do you have some kind of double standard that says an eighteen-year-old boy must be much better able to bear guilt than a sixteen-year-old girl.?

You are joking right? We are not talking about her suffering while she was being controlled by the Geass (of course, according to you, her sub conscience was fighting the whole time, so she could have been suffering...again, according to you). We are talking about the potential suffering that she will face IF the Geass wore off (which I don't think she did). She would be struck with the knowledge that she is personally responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands of people, people she was JUST trying to help. Being the innocent person that she is, I can only imagine that she would lose her freaking mind (if not kill herself), not shrug it off as simply another burden to bare.

I'm sorry I refuted an opinion you did not make about when Euphemia would be suffering. But I still say that you defenders of her murder seem to have an exaggerated estimate of the pain of guilt feelings. If guilt was so terrible there would be a lot less evil done and a lot more people would commit suicide to escape their guilt.

But suppose that you are right that it sometimes is possible for someone to be better off dead. If so, a trained psychologist would have to study a person intensely for weeks, months, or years before making such a decision. But if Lelouch decided that Euphie was better off dead he did so after being with her for only a few hours in the last seven years, almost the last half of her life. I say that it is evil to decide on such little evidence that someone is better off dead, and anyone who thinks that he has done so is probably just lying to himself because he wants to kill someone for other reasons.

And even if Lelouch correctly believed that Euphemia was better off dead, it wold still be his duty to capture her instead of killing her. By capturing and imprisoning her, on the grounds that she was not guilty by reason of insanity, when all the Japanese wanted her killed Lelouch would be setting an example of mercy and fair judgment that would go down in history and perhaps influence thousands of people to spare thousands of persons they would have otherwise killed. A lot of defenders of Lelouch say that the good of the many outweighs the good of one and so Euphemia had to be killed. I say that if the good of the many outweighs the good of the one Euphemia had to be captured and kept alive no matter how much she suffered.

And I agree that life is not easy and one has to go through some suffering to enjoy some of the good parts of it. However, that does not mean that we should LET people suffer. Yeah, life is not fun, but you seriously think that Euphemia would not suffer knowing that she was DIRECTLY responsible for deaths of thousands of people, that she wouldn't totally lose her freaking mind or even kill herself (assuming that she wasn't killed before)? If you don't then you are quite the naive person.

Your first sentence says that everyone has to suffer to enjoy the good things in life. Your second says that we shouldn't LET people suffer. In the context, it could be interpreted as meaning we should kill everyone to keep them from suffering! Write more clearly.

I say that if Euphemia did not remember killing people and ordering a massacre, she would feel innocent. Even if she accepted that her body did it she would believe that she had an evil other personality or something.

If Euphemia had been captured and imprsioned the geass canceler would appear in just a year and could be used on her. Then she would be perfectly harmless and she might suffer a lot of guilt for several weeks or months until the evil Emperor Lelouch reveled that he had made Euphemia order the massacre against her will. Then most of her burden of guilt would be lifted from her and she could be a lot happier, even if still confined for safety's sake.

And if Euphemia defeated her geass command as I believe, she would have been her normal self for the whole year or so until the confession of Lelouch. And she would have suffered guilt for a much longer time until the confession make it clear that she was innocent. But then she would have still had decades of reasonably happy life ahead of her with a much lesser burden of guilt from the massacre.

But it doesn't matter what we believe or Lelouch believed. Lelouch couldn't have known in advance whether Euphemia would be better off alive or dead so he had to keep her alive until that could be determined. You have accused me of speculating when I am making logical deductions. I say that you are speculating when you claim that Euphemia would have suffered terribly from guilt, and Lelouch was speculating too if he believed it was right to kill her to save her from the suffering he assumed she would go though.

It is always wrong to kill someone when it is not necessary . It is always wrong to kill someone who can be capture alive as easy, as fast, and as safely as they can be killed. And it is wrong to worry about how much they might suffer if not killed or about any other problems that might happen. Because evil people could always use such such worries abut the future to justify killing you or me if they wanted to.

Lelouch, if he worried that Euphie might suffer if she lived, and the defenders of her murder, are Like Rufus T. Firefly in Duck Soup worrying that Ambasador Trentino might not accept his apology and starting a war out of that hypothetical worry.

Well, I already think that you naive, since you apparently lost your cool with the death of character character (whose death occurred 2 years ago and who was subsequently brought back for TWO separate spin-offs...why the hell are you still arguing exactly?) and because you believe that life-long, never ending, mind-blowing, soul-crushing torture is better than death because, hey, at least their heart is still beating.

But it is only a year since I saw Euphemia murdered so senselessly last Oct. 12. And you say that she was bought back for two spinoffs. Do you mean that the Euphemia who was killed in episode 23 was brought back to life in two sequels to Code Geass, or are you talking about an alternate universe Euphemia who didn't do many of the things she did in the series?

If the many world interpretation of quantum mechanics is correct there are countless alternate universes in which you or I or anyone else was born. Do you suppose that the relatives and friends in any of the alternate universes in which a person A died in 2001, 1998, 2006, 1993, etc. etc. would feel much consolation from knowing that alternate persons A are alive in many alternate universes and won't die until 2015, 2022, 2037. 2044, 2056, 2064, 2072, etc. etc. etc.? I think they will say those other persons A are not the person A that they love.

And alternate universe Euphemias wold not be nearly as satisfying for me as the tv series Euphemia come back to life.

But now that that is out, you really need to stop or make a nice little thread where you ask people about how they felt about Euphemia's death and argue about it there. Its getting just a little bit (VERY) annoying and you are beginning to look like a troll or someone who is terribly immature (which trolls are by simple definition).

Actually I have started two new threads "Mecha Ethics" and "Euphemia's Murder" which you can visit or avoid.

[blackrosetwilight]

How can I be worse than Nina? She invented a weapon which she knew would probably be used to kill a lot of people. And it was used to kill tens of millions of innocent people, most of them people that Nina had no reason to seek revenge on.

And then she worked with Lelouch, the one person she had the most reason to to kill, to achive a common goal. And apparently she was not prepared and ready to kill him the instant that goal was achieved and missed her chance.

Like Khan Singh in Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan she had a terrible aim and killed everyone except the one perso she wanted most to kill.

But I haven't killed anybody.

All I am trying to do is convince you that killing Euphemia was obvoiusly evil and did not have the slightest justification. And that nobody should ever get the least bit of pleasure from watching that terrible, evil, series Code Geass.

Defending Nina by saying she got cute in season 2 is really lame. Most of the evil characters in Code Geass, such as Lelouch, Suzaku, CC, Kallen, Cornelia, Viletta, Rollo, etc. etc. were cute and innocent looking.

I think you misunderstood us, we're not talking about you being a more worse person than Nina on how morale or immoral you are compare to her. We are comparing the two of you's admiration of Eupy, on how she got over it and moved on with her life accepting that Euphy is dead and is not coming back. Unlike you who keeps suggesting that she can still be saved and anyone who says otherwise are wrong or evil. You know I know how you feel I too sometimes wish some character didnt get killed off so easily too, but it happens and you should've known people were going die in Code Geass. It was made by the same guys who made Gundam which pioneered the whole main character killing off and no resurrection fad.

[IcePriestess]

How can I be worse than Nina? She invented a weapon which she knew would probably be used to kill a lot of people. And it was used to kill tens of millions of innocent people, most of them people that Nina had no reason to seek revenge on.

And then she worked with Lelouch, the one person she had the most reason to to kill, to achive a common goal. And apparently she was not prepared and ready to kill him the instant that goal was achieved and missed her chance.

Like Khan Singh in Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan she had a terrible aim and killed everyone except the one perso she wanted most to kill.

But I haven't killed anybody.

All I am trying to do is convince you that killing Euphemia was obvoiusly evil and did not have the slightest justification. And that nobody should ever get the least bit of pleasure from watching that terrible, evil, series Code Geass.

Defending Nina by saying she got cute in season 2 is really lame. Most of the evil characters in Code Geass, such as Lelouch, Suzaku, CC, Kallen, Cornelia, Viletta, Rollo, etc. etc. were cute and innocent looking.

Fine, since you're posting no matter what I say, I'll just try to convince you to drop your love to Euphemia.

You just wrote that evil characters are Lelouch, Suzaku, CC, Kallen ,Cornelia, Viletta, Rollo.... You're justifying Euphemia as much as you can, but why can't you justify Lelouch or any other character? OF Course for you WHO JUST SAID THAT CODE GEASS IS TERRIBLE EVIL SERIES it doesn't matter that characters have their own reasons right? I Can't see how C.C. Is bad... She is a witch, but that was passed on her not by her will(of course someone who didn't see Code Geass R2 doesn't know that.). Oh, I shouldn't forget to mention that LELOUCH did every evil deed(in the end) to erase Euphemia's name from history as a "murder princess"... Oh... OF course you couldn't see that Lelouch said : I will become evil, so evil that everyone will forget the name of murder princess... How could you see when you didn't see R2?
Oh Rollo is evil too? HE NEVER HAD A FAMILY AND WAS TRAINED TO KILL. If that's what you call evil, I don't understand you. Besides how the hell do you know about Rollo, if you didn't watch R2? Oh! So you did watch that, but you still can't justify neither Lelouch nor Suzaku or Rollo, C.C.??
Besides as you already wrote "this is terrible evil series". So why the hell did you watch that to begin with? Euphemia didn't appear in first episode and you could just drop that(that would be no proEuphie!). OR maybe it's terrible and evil just because Euphemia died?! Wow your logic is Extreme. No... more like you don't have any logic! Congratulations on that. Justify your beloved euphemia, her "TERRIBLE MURDER"(Even though she could have lived worse life than what dead would be)..... OH! I forgot. You don't know(or you're only pretending to not know) that Euphemia is living happily in afterlife!!! So you'd better wish her A Dead soul's life, full of pain and agony of killing people, rather than wish her a happy afterlife?
No matter what you will say, Euphemia was not a main character to begin with. Why the hell are you justifying her? If you'll find another princess in other anime and she will get killed by accident, you'll try to convince us to pity her too? Oh that's good! Maybe you'll forget Euphemia then.
~IcePriestess

[proEuphie]

I think you misunderstood us, we're not talking about you being a more worse person than Nina on how morale or immoral you are compare to her. We are comparing the two of you's admiration of Eupy, on how she got over it and moved on with her life accepting that Euphy is dead and is not coming back. Unlike you who keeps suggesting that she can still be saved and anyone who says otherwise are wrong or evil. You know I know how you feel I too sometimes wish some character didnt get killed off so easily too, but it happens and you should've known people were going die in Code Geass. It was made by the same guys who made Gundam which pioneered the whole main character killing off and no resurrection fad.

But remember I just thought that Euphemia was a very nice minor character until she was murdering so senselessly. It is only upon thinking abut the world of Code geas than I cam to realize that Euphemia is so good compared to all the other characters put together.

[TheSplundPopper]

I have only seen the first five episodes so far. From what I have seen he seems heroic in that he plans to bring down Britania, who are certainly in the wrong as they are the ones occupying Japan and trying to take everything from it.
He does on the other hand seem to believe that the end always justifies the means. So seems to be in some ways like Light Yagami only not pure evil.

[wolfgirl90]

But remember I just thought that Euphemia was a very nice minor character until she was murdering so senselessly. It is only upon thinking abut the world of Code geas than I cam to realize that Euphemia is so good compared to all the other characters put together.

Which is fine, but it really isn't necessary to point this out in every other bloody thread. Yes, we know your opinion. Put in a thread where it matters (by the way, thank you for starting the threads that ACTUALLY deal with Euphemia's murder; I will assume that you stop talking about it in other threads).

There is a point that you should realize that you need to just...stop. Again, you liking Euphemia really isn't an issue for me or anyone. Its just that your constant rants about it in every thread get on other people's nerves to the point that it almost makes you look like a troll (and I still am not truly convinced that you are not one).

[Aozora*Pen]

Stop posting freakin' essays. We ALL know that your posts have to be more than four words, Thank You Very Much. And yes, she is a troll. (OOPS. Not.)

[proEuphie]

I think you misunderstood us, we're not talking about you being a more worse person than Nina on how morale or immoral you are compare to her. We are comparing the two of you's admiration of Eupy, on how she got over it and moved on with her life accepting that Euphy is dead and is not coming back. Unlike you who keeps suggesting that she can still be saved and anyone who says otherwise are wrong or evil. You know I know how you feel I too sometimes wish some character didnt get killed off so easily too, but it happens and you should've known people were going die in Code Geass. It was made by the same guys who made Gundam which pioneered the whole main character killing off and no resurrection fad.

NIna didn't know Euphemia the way the viewers did. Nina did not see her at the Battle of Narita refusing to do what she desperately wanted to do for fear of endangering strangers.

Nina didn't see Euphemia triumph over Lelouch's hate and convince him to support her SAZ plan.

Nina didn't see Euphemia recognize Kallen as "the girl from the island" in a tone of voice that seemed remarkably non hostile to me considering that Kallen had shot at Euphie and Suzaku on the island.

Nina didn't see Euphemia apolagize to Zero for shooting harmlessly at his armored nightmare without complaining about Zero's nightmare destroying hers and probably scaring her half to death.

Nina didn't see Lelouch shoot Euphemia and didn't realize how easy it would have been for Lelouch to capture her alive.

Nina didn't see her resist her geass command at first, nor her odd behavior right before Lelouchs shot her indicating that she was almost totally free of the control of her geass command.

Nina didn't see Euphemia defeat her geass command in the Avalon sickbay. Suzaku did but probably didn't understand or ever report it accurately to Nina.

Nina didn't see the gods obey Lelouch's geass command without resisting as Euphemia had resisted, and never knew that Euphemia's goodness enabled her to do what the gods themselves could not.

Nina may get over Euphemia's death as real people tend to get over the death of loved ones.

But to me Euphemia was just a minor Code Geass character until I saw how easy it was for Lelouch to capture her alive and how senselessly evil it was to kill her. I only realized how special Euphemia was because for the last year I have been thinking about how evil her murder was. If she had survived to the end of the series I would not have noticed a lot of great things about her and would think of her as a really nice and good minor character.

[proEuphie]

Fine, since you're posting no matter what I say, I'll just try to convince you to drop your love to Euphemia.

You just wrote that evil characters are Lelouch, Suzaku, CC, Kallen ,Cornelia, Viletta, Rollo.... You're justifying Euphemia as much as you can, but why can't you justify Lelouch or any other character? OF Course for you WHO JUST SAID THAT CODE GEASS IS TERRIBLE EVIL SERIES it doesn't matter that characters have their own reasons right? I Can't see how C.C. Is bad... She is a witch, but that was passed on her not by her will(of course someone who didn't see Code Geass R2 doesn't know that.). Oh, I shouldn't forget to mention that LELOUCH did every evil deed(in the end) to erase Euphemia's name from history as a "murder princess"... Oh... OF course you couldn't see that Lelouch said : I will become evil, so evil that everyone will forget the name of murder princess... How could you see when you didn't see R2?
Oh Rollo is evil too? HE NEVER HAD A FAMILY AND WAS TRAINED TO KILL. If that's what you call evil, I don't understand you. Besides how the hell do you know about Rollo, if you didn't watch R2? Oh! So you did watch that, but you still can't justify neither Lelouch nor Suzaku or Rollo, C.C.??
Besides as you already wrote "this is terrible evil series". So why the hell did you watch that to begin with? Euphemia didn't appear in first episode and you could just drop that(that would be no proEuphie!). OR maybe it's terrible and evil just because Euphemia died?! Wow your logic is Extreme. No... more like you don't have any logic! Congratulations on that. Justify your beloved euphemia, her "TERRIBLE MURDER"(Even though she could have lived worse life than what dead would be)..... OH! I forgot. You don't know(or you're only pretending to not know) that Euphemia is living happily in afterlife!!! So you'd better wish her A Dead soul's life, full of pain and agony of killing people, rather than wish her a happy afterlife?
No matter what you will say, Euphemia was not a main character to begin with. Why the hell are you justifying her? If you'll find another princess in other anime and she will get killed by accident, you'll try to convince us to pity her too? Oh that's good! Maybe you'll forget Euphemia then.
~IcePriestess

What do you mean I am justifying Euphemia? Am I responding to accusations against her? NO.

I suppose if someone accused Lelouch of doing something evil he didn't do or something which was not actually evil, and if I was feeling generous toward him I might justify Lelouch in that case.

So you say that CC was not evil because she didn't choose to be a witch? I think one of the other posters will challenge you implication that choosing to be a witch would be evil. Lelouch admitted to her he put a geass on Euphie. CC knew Euphemia was innocent and as much victim as anyone else. And she helped Lelouch murder her, which is like you helping to murder a baby. She helped in the geass directorate massacre, I hear. Thus CC is a murderer and evil.

I suppose that Rollo is a nice kid who has had a tragic life (but Euphemia's life has had its tragedies too, such as the murder of Marianne and the presumed deaths of Lelouch and Nunnally, but she never kills anyone of her own free will and resists a geass command to kill more than the gods do in the second season, I hear) like Haku in Naruto and the girls in Gunslinger Girl. But someone as old as Rollo or Triella is getting rather old to use their desire to fit in with those they love as a justification for murder.

I doubt that the relatives of people that Rollo killed would get any relief of their sorrow by knowing he did it to please the people he wanted to love him. A good person would not put his personal situation above the survival of others.

And I doubt that the relatives of Emilio in Gunslinger Girl would be consoled to know that Rico killed him because of her desperate desire to be loved by her handler Jean. They might forgive Rico because she is so young and so heavily conditioned (i.e. brainwashed) but they would have no reason to forgive her agency for making its terrible, evil rule to kill all witnesses, even innocent bystanders, to preserve secrecy -- especially since the rule should have been revoked by the time of Emilio's death because the enemy was already suspecting that little girls were being used to assassinate them.

Gunslinger Girl is not a terrible, evil series because the creators never imply that the murders the girls commit are good actions or that the girls are noble heroes, merely that they are not guilty of murder by reason of their youth and brainwashing.

Yes I hear the the "Evil Emperor Lelouch" did a lot of evil toward the end of the second season, partially to clear Euphemia's name (which would be a lot better justification if Euphemia was actually alive to enjoy vindication). But in order for a person to be good and justified he has to have good goals and use good methods to work toward them. So if Lelouch was deliberately doing things which he thought were evil (I can just imagine how evil they were compared to his evil deeds which he thought were good) not because he wanted to do those particular things but as a step to his good or evil goal, then he was becoming more evil, not less. The way to do good is to have a good goal and use good means to achieve it.

And I did hear something about an afterlife in the second season and Euphie being in it. But if that information comes from some Code Geass character of dubious honesty it is a little naive to accept it at face value. And if the god or mortal who created that after life had the typical twisted values of Code Geass characters I would fear that the evil people would go to its version of heaven and good people like Euphie to its version of hell.

And with all the destruction which I hear goes on in the second season I fear that maybe heaven might have been destroyed, killing Euphie for the second time.

Did learning that there is a Code Geass afterlife make you consider any of the other murders and killings in the series were any less evil, or did you still hate Rollo for Killing Shirley, for example, as much as you did before?

And if there is an afterlife in the world of Code Geass, how does that change ethics from those in a fictional world which has no afterlife?

See posts # 55,56, 57, and 66 above, between Namiko and I, in which I point out how someone who becomes certain that there was a Christian afterlife might have to change their ethics.

I think that may make you change your mind about my lack of logic.

And was Lelouch absolutely certain that their was an afterlife when he killed Euphemia so needlessly? If not that fact is of no value in justifying his action.

And I didn't know that Code Geass was terrible and evil, though I noticed some clues, until I saw the protagonist Lelouch shoot Euphie when it would have been so easy to capture her alive. Yes, I was tricked into watching 23 hours of that terrible show by the deceptive and misleading tone of the series which implied it was about relatively good and noble people fighting for the causes they believed in, instead of evil, brutal, ruthless people fighting for the causes they believed in but shouldn't have.