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Thread: Lelouch(Zero) - Villain or Hero of Justice?

  1. #26
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    To me, he's an anti-hero. Because of how Suzaku is portrayed, it appears that way. In this case, Suzaku is the 'hero', and Lelouch is the force opposing him, and the Britannian Empire, for a greater good. Therefore, anti-hero. (:


    「そんな顔をしないで。また会えるよ、シンジ君」
    ---

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  2. #27
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    ProEuphie can you please not write a bible in this thread? I created it so that you wouldn't argue about that, but just tell your opinion. That's all.
    It is stupid to be afraid to die, but the most stupid thing is to be afraid to live.

  3. #28
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    OKAAAAAAAAY, proEuphie, I got it (geez, this time I wasn't even arguing with you).

    While I have not read everything that you have said in that long post of yours, I never even said that you were completely wrong; just that you used a bad example and that some parts of your argument are flawed. I understood your point from the beginning.

    Getting FULLY back on topic (meaning that if you bring up anything else not related to Code Geass, I will ignore it completely), while it is true that a lot of the characters committed evil acts, whether or not those characters themselves are evil is up to debate. Lelouch did a lot of evils things, no doubt about it, but does that make him evil, considering the meaning behind the actions that he took? Because of this I find it hard to classify him as a hero because of his actions but find it equally hard to call him a villain because of the meaning behind those actions.
    I define an evil person, as I have said in other posts, as one who has committed at least one evil act in his life, and has not repented and atoned sufficiently for it - if atonement for that act is even theoretically possible, which may be disputed and argued about. I think that if a person is basically good they will not do even one evil thing in their life.

    I think that one evil deed must overshadow a lifetime of otherwise good or acceptable deeds if you believe that most people can, with luck and effort, live their lives without doing anything evil and that such a life is a goal worth encouraging and demanding.

    As near as I can tell the only characters who never did anything evil were Euphemia, Shirley, Milly, and Rivalez. You may object that many of the Britannian warriors and Black Knights did not participate in massacres or terrorists acts themselves.

    But being in the same organization, or loose group of organizations working for one common cause, as people who commit massacres and/or terrorism and not quitting in disgust or protesting or doing something to make massacres and/or terrorism a less common practice by those on your side, makes you an accessory or accomplice in my view.

    Suzaku in the first season, when he fought without killing, as Lloyd said in "Battle of Narita", and Euphemia in the same episode when she refused to do what she desperately wanted to do for fear that it might cause the enemy to respond and endanger civilians, followed codes of conduct that were very much higher than those of many other Britannians and so can be considered to be criticizing, by example, typical Britannian methods. Thus they can be considered to be uncontaminated, or much less contaminated, by fighting for britannia than any of the other Britannians in the first season.

    It is possible that some Britanians in the second season might have protested against the use of F.R.E.I.J.A. to kill millions, and some Black Knights may have protested the geass directorate massacre. And thus they may have remained innocent. But that seems rather late in the day for Britannains or Black Knights to protest.

    And how can the meaning behind Lelouch's actions have much value to make him less of a villain?

    Doing them for revenge would make each of his deeds more evil and less good than otherwise.

    Doing them to make Nunnally happier and safer would mean that he couldn't figure out what would make Nunnaly happy or safe.

    And doing them to save the world would mean that he was just another destructive character with a nutty plan to save the world like Lenin, or Hitler, or Mao, or Jim Jones, or Charles Manson or (insert here the name of any one of hundreds or thousands of destructive, violent historical characters who killed tens, or hundreds, or thousands, or tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands, or millions of people in a warped, twisted, effort to improve the world).
    Last edited by proEuphie; 09-04-2009 at 10:38 PM.

  4. #29
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    I'd say in R1, yeah, he was a villian. I always thought of Suzaku-kun as more of a hero there. He did alot of bad things, but we all do. He killed alot of people, but he made up for it. I honestly hated Lulu in R1, if I had only seen that, I would say he was evil. But in R2, he was more of a hero. In the end, he got redemption for all he did, thus he was a hero. In my oppinion by the way.
    Plus, you can't judge him for what happened to Euphy, I was a huge Euphy fan, but it was accodent. He didn't want to use Geass on her.
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  5. #30
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimi no kioku View Post
    I'd say in R1, yeah, he was a villian. I always thought of Suzaku-kun as more of a hero there. He did alot of bad things, but we all do. He killed alot of people, but he made up for it. I honestly hated Lulu in R1, if I had only seen that, I would say he was evil. But in R2, he was more of a hero. In the end, he got redemption for all he did, thus he was a hero. In my oppinion by the way.
    Plus, you can't judge him for what happened to Euphy, I was a huge Euphy fan, but it was accodent. He didn't want to use Geass on her.
    1) Doing good deeds is not necessarily enough to redeem you for your previous bad deeds.

    2) yes, I can judge Lelouch for the Euphy thing because:

    A) He was planning something very similar, making Euphie shoot him to start the revolution, and then coming back to life to awe the Japanese. He was planning to trick thousands of Japanese who wanted to live into dying for the revolution. That was a plan for mass murder. And he was probably planning to kill Euphie too. If he had a plan to save her he could have adapted it to the similar circumstances of the massacre and saved her.

    And he gloated about making her shoot him (like a melodrama villain - a subtle hint from the producers?) which was a cause of his later giving her the geass command to kill the Japanese. Thus everyone killed in the Fuji Massacre and the Black Rebellion was murdered by Lelouch, since those deaths were a direct result of his earlier plan for mass murder.

    And thus all the millions killed by the use of F.R.E.I.J.A. in the second season were murdered by Lelouch, since the Fuji Massacre, the killing of Euphemia, Nina's attempts to make a F.R.E.I.J.A. weapon, her recruitment into the F.R.E.I.J.A. project, and the perfection of F.R.E.I.J.A. in time to kill millions in the wars of the second season, all flowed from his plan to make Euphie shoot him and spark a revolution.

    B) I can judge him for the Euphy thing because shooting Euphy was deliberate, not an accident. If it was an inevitable result of accidentally giving her the geass command it could be considered a part of the accident, but it was hardly a direct or inevitable result of giving her the command.

    Once her nightmare was destroyed he could have picked her up in one hand of his nightmare and carried her around like King Kong with Ann Darrow. If he encountered Britannian nightmares a live princess in the hand would be worth two blasters in the holster to make them surrender.

    Instead he inexplicably let her pick up and keep a machine gun and then left the armored safety of his nightmare to walk toward her. That was treason against his cause unless he felt absolutely certain that even a geass command could not make her shoot him unless he gave some sign of interfering with her mission.

    So if he was perfectly safe around Euphemia he could have captured her or tricked her into becoming his prisoner as fast, as easy, and a safely as he killed her. Once she was a prisoner she could have been confined and been less danger to anyone than any free person in the world would have been. So killing her was an utterly senseless murder. And we can and must blame him for that.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-31-2009 at 10:36 PM.

  6. #31
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    Oh. I am just simply amazed that you would go watch season two after Euphemia died.


    「そんな顔をしないで。また会えるよ、シンジ君」
    ---

    もう二度と会えないなんて信じられない
    まだ何も伝えてない
    まだ何も伝えてない


    I'm sorry (not) sorry.

  7. #32
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    I don't think that Lelouch was a villain and nor do I think he was entirely a hero.
    If you ask me if Suzaku was more of a villain then Lelouch was due to his almost non-existant regard for anyone besides himself (This became immensely more apparent in the second season).
    Lelouch as Zero was a soldier first and foremost waging a massive guerrilla war agianst the brittanians.
    His actions for the most part were no better nor worse then many acts perpetrated by the other side.
    Does this mean Lelouch was a Hero? No he was egotistic prick
    Does this mean he was a villain? No as his actions were often superceded by the necessities of war and politics

  8. #33
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    he's a HERO !!
    Last edited by WiTCHiiee YUKO :); 09-03-2009 at 06:16 AM.
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  9. #34
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    I don't think that Lelouch was a villain and nor do I think he was entirely a hero.
    If you ask me if Suzaku was more of a villain then Lelouch was due to his almost non-existant regard for anyone besides himself (This became immensely more apparent in the second season).
    Lelouch as Zero was a soldier first and foremost waging a massive guerrilla war agianst the brittanians.
    His actions for the most part were no better nor worse then many acts perpetrated by the other side.
    Does this mean Lelouch was a Hero? No he was egotistic prick
    Does this mean he was a villain? No as his actions were often superceded by the necessities of war and politics
    I say that three of his actions were villainous:
    1) Plotting to trick thousands of Japanese who wanted to live into dying for his revolution at the SAZ opening. That was a plot for mass murder - and probably the individual murder of Euphemia.
    2) After giving Euphie the command to kill the Japnese he ordered his men to kill her and them killed her himself, even though after her nightmare ws destroyed capturing her alive wuld have been as easy as picking her up in the hand of his giant robot
    3) Ordering the geass directorate Massacre.
    Any one of those three villainous acts is enough to make lleouch a villain, however much of a hero he might also be due to other acts. Lleouchis way too much fof a villain for me to approve of.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Technically it is not correct that all war heroes kill people. For example, many present day medals of honor are awarded posthumously for sacrificing one's own life to save the lives of one's comrades. The classic example is leaping on a hand grenade and smothering and adsorbing the explosion and the deadly fragments with your own body to save the lives of others.

    Some of the soldiers who did that type of thing may have killed people previously, but that is not what they were honored for. And some of them did not kill anyone in their military careers

    Thus it is perfectly possible to be a war hero without killing anyone.

    And killing people does not always make a hero out of a warrior. Did Jefferson Davis become a hero for shooting General Nelson during the Civil War? No.

    He wasn't the Confederate president, but Union General Jefferson C. Davis, the butt of a number of jokes. And why didn't shooting a Confederate general make Jefferson C. Davis a hero? Because General Nelson was a U.S. general and Davis's commanding officer when Davis shot him during a quarrel.

    Contrary to your assumption, killing people is not always necessary or sufficient to make someone a war hero.
    AND IT STARTS

    The mutilation of another thread.

    Please. I beg you not to MUTILATE this poor thread like you did the others you showed up on.

    You're vicious killing of the Code Geass section is worse than that bullet entering Euphie's heart.

    You deserve your own motivational poster.

    You are frighting... really.

    Ok....

    my POINT where you will UNDOUBTEDLY pick ONE WORD out and attack OVER AND OVER while completely ignoring everything else I have said.

    Key words
    "killing people is not always necessary"

    NOT AWLAYS

    meaning

    SOMETIMES IT IS


    Though I suppose you are some sort of strategic genius sitting at home and finding nothing better to do then say "He's wrong" but I dont know anything. Im a Lelouch fan! I'm just a moron who blindly follows a sadist! Right?


    Killing people makes good TV, why else would some of the most popular shows ANYWHERE be crime shows? CSI, NCIS, The Mentalist, Criminal Minds.

    Death is INTERESTING when its not REAL and cg isnt REAL its


    E N T E R T A I N M E NT.
    D R A M A.
    F A N S E R V I C E.
    P I Z Z A H U T C O M M E R C I A L W I T H D E A D P E O P L E.


    we are SUPPOSED to question Lelouch BUT in the END we are most likely supposed to confirm his LAST ACT OF KINDNESS.

    Darn him. Darn that fool. How dare he die for others. Bad Lelouch! Bad!


    Fatal Frame II




    Because Friendship is MAGIC!

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I say that three of his actions were villainous:
    1) Plotting to trick thousands of Japanese who wanted to live into dying for his revolution at the SAZ opening. That was a plot for mass murder - and probably the individual murder of Euphemia.
    If my memory serves me right he never intended for anyone but himself to die at the opening of the SAZ.
    Extenuating circumstances due to an unforseen complication forced him to a much more drastic and costly act.
    However if he didn't do what he did how much worse would the situation have been (With Euphie under the compulsion to kill ALL japanese)
    2) After giving Euphie the command to kill the Japnese he ordered his men to kill her and them killed her himself, even though after her nightmare ws destroyed capturing her alive wuld have been as easy as picking her up in the hand of his giant robot
    Ok then what?
    He now has Euphie under the permanent cmpulsion to kill any and all japanese.
    So what will he do with her?
    He can't let her go and her use as a hostage will merely tarnish Zeros image (Euphie still being seen as one of the best Britanians for the Japanese)
    Also there is Euphie who is unable to stop the horror she is inflicting.
    So strategically and morally it was better to end the suffering of Euphie and seize the chance to free Japan.
    3) Ordering the geass directorate Massacre.
    However this was not an intended action and was an unforseeable problem that arose from the activation of the Geass.
    Surely Lelouch would not have wanted this course of action which is one of the worst possible outcomes for either side. (it eventually leads to Zeros Defeat)
    Any one of those three villainous acts is enough to make lleouch a villain, however much of a hero he might also be due to other acts. Lleouchis way too much fof a villain for me to approve of.
    I will grant that Lelouch could be a cold and calculating person who is more then prepared to sacrifice to achieve his goals.
    But from a strategic standpoint of a soldier his actions are the logical continuation of diplomacy by undiplomatic means and no better or worse then many of the other fighters around him.
    Last edited by MangaFanGuy; 09-03-2009 at 09:34 PM.

  12. #37
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Oh. I am just simply amazed that you would go watch season two after Euphemia died.
    I didn't. I lost interest in the story. What suspense can there be when the character who has ninety percent of all the goodness in the cast of dozens has already been murdered.

  13. #38
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    Hero.
    Yes, he killed people, but dont all War Heroes? Thats what makes them War Heroes.

    Hero. He committed one of the most selfless acts I can think of. He made his life hell so everyone would hate him, then killed himself to make every other person on Earth Happier. If that is not a hero I don't know what is.

    Hero.
    :'3
    Yes, Lelouch sacrificed himself at the end. But do you think that sacrifice 50%, or 100 %, or 200% makes up of any of all of his evil deeds such as murdering Euphemia or ordering the geass directorate Massacre?

    It might if those evil deeds were directly necessary for the succeess of the Zero Requiem. But since Lelouch could have have achieved the Zero Requiem without murdering Euphie or ordering the geass directorate Massacre those evil deeds were totally unrelated to achieving his noble goal and thus were totally unnecessary and evil deeds which the Zero Requiem cannot make up for.

    Someone who thinks that his goal is noble and therefore he doesn't have to worry if he commits a few more murders and massacres than are absolutely necessary to achieve his goal is too much of a villain for me.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 09-03-2009 at 10:16 PM.

  14. #39
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    AND IT STARTS

    The mutilation of another thread.

    Please. I beg you not to MUTILATE this poor thread like you did the others you showed up on.

    You're vicious killing of the Code Geass section is worse than that bullet entering Euphie's heart.

    You deserve your own motivational poster.

    You are frighting... really.

    Ok....

    my POINT where you will UNDOUBTEDLY pick ONE WORD out and attack OVER AND OVER while completely ignoring everything else I have said.

    Key words
    "killing people is not always necessary"

    NOT AWLAYS

    meaning

    SOMETIMES IT IS


    Though I suppose you are some sort of strategic genius sitting at home and finding nothing better to do then say "He's wrong" but I dont know anything. Im a Lelouch fan! I'm just a moron who blindly follows a sadist! Right?


    Killing people makes good TV, why else would some of the most popular shows ANYWHERE be crime shows? CSI, NCIS, The Mentalist, Criminal Minds.

    Death is INTERESTING when its not REAL and cg isnt REAL its


    E N T E R T A I N M E NT.
    D R A M A.
    F A N S E R V I C E.
    P I Z Z A H U T C O M M E R C I A L W I T H D E A D P E O P L E.


    we are SUPPOSED to question Lelouch BUT in the END we are most likely supposed to confirm his LAST ACT OF KINDNESS.

    Darn him. Darn that fool. How dare he die for others. Bad Lelouch! Bad!
    So you claim that I misquoted you.
    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    Hero.
    Yes, he killed people, but dont all War Heroes? Thats what makes them War Heroes.
    You clearly wrote that killing people was necessary, and perhaps sufficient, to make a war hero.

    So you claim that mutilating a website is even worse than having someone helpless at the feet of your two giant robots and killing them instead of capturing them. You claim that mutilating a website is worse than walking up to someone, and past them, and away from them, confident that they love you and trust you too much to shoot you in the back. And then rewarding them for that love and trust and not shooting you by treacherously shooting them.

    So you claim that mutilating a website is worse than a leader saying that there is no point in capturing someone alive when actually there is never any point in killing someone who can be captured alive as easily, and as fast, and as safely as Euphemia could have been.

    So you claim that mutilating a website is worse than killing someone who is helpless to fight you and also loves and trusts you so much they would never suspect you were hostile to them? Do you know how many millions of men have wished that they hadn't had to kill and that it would have been as safe and easy to capture their enemy as it would have been for Lelouch to capture Euphemia?

    Do you know how many of your ancestors were captured despite it being much harder to capture them alive than it would have been for Lelouch to capture Euphie? You would never have been born if the warriors who captured countless of your ancestors had been like Lelouch and killed everyone that was not even safer and easier to capture than Euphemia was.

    I was sort of a Lelouch fan until I saw him shoot Euphemia unnecessarily.

    And yes I do know better than Lelouch, who is just a fictional character created by tv writers and producers, not by the greatest tacticians and strategists in the world.

    You think I'm frightening? All I'm trying to do is find someone who shares my outrage and disgust at being expected by cynical tv producers to keep on liking Lelouch despite seeing him murder Euphemia needlessly. I find all the thousands and possibly millions of Code Geass fans who can keep liking Lelouch despite seeing him murder Euphie just as frightening as you find me.

    We may be expected (in the sense of prediction) to cheer Lelouch's last act of sacrifice by the creators of Code Geass, but we are probably expected (in the sense of demanding) to hate and despise Lelouch for his previous crimes by the creator of the universe.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 09-03-2009 at 10:53 PM.

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    Senior Member ichimoku_fanboy has a reputation beyond repute ichimoku_fanboy has a reputation beyond repute ichimoku_fanboy has a reputation beyond repute ichimoku_fanboy has a reputation beyond repute ichimoku_fanboy has a reputation beyond repute ichimoku_fanboy has a reputation beyond repute ichimoku_fanboy has a reputation beyond repute ichimoku_fanboy has a reputation beyond repute ichimoku_fanboy has a reputation beyond repute ichimoku_fanboy has a reputation beyond repute ichimoku_fanboy has a reputation beyond repute ichimoku_fanboy's Avatar
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    i can only think to ansewer this with a personal quote of mine -

    "One must dirty one's hands to clean a mess, no?"

    he did what was necessary to cripple a superpower-nation, the most powerful might i add, diplomatic or peaceful means would be far to risky and take possibly 30+ years for him to even come close, but those are my opinions...


    in the end, i declare him a hero, cuz true heroes dont wanna be recognized for their work, only selfish children run around declaring how great they are for cleaning up someone else's mess, Lelouche didnt want recognition for his actions, therefore i declare him both selfless, but selfish in his desire for a new world, even though he had purely selfish reasons for doing so...
    Last edited by ichimoku_fanboy; 09-03-2009 at 10:58 PM.


  16. #41
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    If my memory serves me right he never intended for anyone but himself to die at the opening of the SAZ.
    Extenuating circumstances due to an unforseen complication forced him to a much more drastic and costly act.
    However if he didn't do what he did how much worse would the situation have been (With Euphie under the compulsion to kill ALL japanese)
    Lelouch expected himself to rise from the dead to prove to the Japanese that he was the true messiah. I started a thread to discuss this but it has been locked before any satisfactory conclusion was reached.

    Lelouch expected a bloody riot would break out and that it would be the start of his revolution. Thus he was planning to trick many Japanese to die by making it seem that Euphie had murdered him.

    By doing what he did Lelouch caused Nina to try making a F.R.E.I.J.A. weapon which caused her to be later recruited into the project and help to perfect it in time to kill millions of people in the wars of the second season. And I keep saying that Lelouch could have saved the Japanese by capturing Euphie, which would have been just as good for the Japanese and a lot better for her.

    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    Ok then what?
    He now has Euphie under the permanent cmpulsion to kill any and all japanese.
    So what will he do with her?
    He can't let her go and her use as a hostage will merely tarnish Zeros image (Euphie still being seen as one of the best Britanians for the Japanese)
    Also there is Euphie who is unable to stop the horror she is inflicting.
    So strategically and morally it was better to end the suffering of Euphie and seize the chance to free Japan.
    Euphemia was not under a permanent compulsion to kill all Japanese. This was in the first season. Lelouch gave Suzaku, the second most prominent character, a geass command to survive, which turned Suzaku cowardly at first. But a few days later Lelouch saw Suzaku fighting bravely against the Chinese invasion. Since Suzaku's geass command and Euphemia's both did not mention time limits, Lelouch and the audience should have assumed that Euhemia's command would have worn off after a few days.

    Perhaps the series was originally intended to last just one season and end in a tragic gotterdamerung in which Suzaku attacked Lelouch in revenge for the senseless murder of Euphemia and they killed each other at the climax, ruining both their attempts to help the Japanese. Thus the temporary effects of Suzaku's geass command would have been written into the story to prove how senseless Euphie's murder was and motivate Suzaku's revenge.

    If so, during the second season the producers made a feeble effort to rewrite history by having Suzaku's geass command occassionally affect him, while he still sometimes fought bravely. Even so, the audience should have expected that if Euphemia survived she would only sometimes try to kill Japanese people. she might have to be locked up all the time, but when not affected by the geass command she could be happy and do good.

    You actually expect me to believe that Euphemia would become a tiger by the tail if Lelouch captured her? You say that she still has enough of a reputation left that using her as a hostage to save Japanese lives will tarnish Zero's reputation but killing her will not tarnish his reputation? Of course Lelouch could always lie about the circumstances and say that he killed Euphemia while she was about to kill a bunch of Japanese people. But if he's going to lie that much he might as well take her prisoner and lie about killing her.

    Lelouch gloated to Cc that he would invite the Emperor to a meeting when the Japanese proclaimed independence in Tokyo and said the Emperor would have to attend. So Lelouch was not planing to defeat attack after attack for years but expected the Emperor to make a state visit to Tokyo right after a bloody rebellion. Perhaps Lelouch expected Santa Claus to bring the Emperor in his sleigh.

    So Lelouch needed to have Euphemia alive in order to have even the tiniest chance to trick the emperor into coming to Tokyo. Even if Euphemia was alive in japan or Britannia the Emperor might be afraid to come to Tokyo, but if a sweet girl like her had been killed with no better excuse than fake videos of a totally out of character massacre, the Emperor would know that it would be suicidal to come to Japan.

    Lelouch desperately needed Euphemia alive for his plan to work, he could use her as a hostage to stop the massacre sooner, he knew that she was innocent, he could capture her really easy and safely, and he killed her anyway. So much for strategy.

    I didn't hear Euphie screaming in pain and begging for Lelouch to shoot her. When he shot her she asked him why. She didn't want to die. Euphie didn't have to stop the horror she was inflicting. Locking her up would do that for her. Killing her was morally wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    However this was not an intended action and was an unforseeable problem that arose from the activation of the Geass.
    Surely Lelouch would not have wanted this course of action which is one of the worst possible outcomes for either side. (it eventually leads to Zeros Defeat)
    If the geass command was an accident, killing Euphemia was not. It was not an inevitable result of the accident. After Euphemia's nightmare was destroyed it was just one unarmed girl facing two of the most powerful nightmares in the world. She could have been killed or captured in many different ways. Lelouch could choose to kill or capture her by many different methods. He was not forced to kill her. he chose to kill her using a method which took advantage of her trust and love for him, instead of capturing he by, for example, simply picking her up in a and of his giant robot.

    Quote Originally Posted by MangaFanGuy View Post
    I will grant that Lelouch could be a cold and calculating person who is more then prepared to sacrifice to achieve his goals.
    But from a strategic standpoint of a soldier his actions are the logical continuation of diplomacy by undiplomatic means and no better or worse then many of the other fighters around him.
    many of Lelouch's (and those of most other characters) actions were far more evil than any good and decent solider would do. Euphemia at the battle of Narita was a commander who who followed the highest code of ethics, and Suzaku in the first season was a highly honorable warrior. Their examples could be considered criticism of typical Britannian behavior and attempts to change it by example.

    You damn Lelouch with very, very, very, very faint praise if you say that he is no better or worse than many of the other fighters around him. Lelouch is no worse than Charles! Leouch is no worse than Schenitzel! Lelouch is no worse than Kallen! I have claimed that as far as I know only Euphemia, Shirley, Milly, and Rivalez never did anything evil themselves nor were contaminated by fighting on the same same side as evil doers.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 09-04-2009 at 12:05 AM.

  17. #42
    Senior Member MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy has a reputation beyond repute MangaFanGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Lelouch expected himself to rise from the dead to prove to the Japanese that he was the true messiah. I started a thread to discuss this but it has been locked before any satisfactory conclusion was reached.

    Lelouch expected a bloody riot would break out and that it would be the start of his revolution. Thus he was planning to trick many Japanese to die by making it seem that Euphie had murdered him
    So you argue that the outcome would have been the same either way.
    And this whole plan would have hinged on Euphie actually agreeing to this course of action which I can hardly see her doing.
    So regardless of his plan it is what happened that is more important.
    By doing what he did Lelouch caused Nina to try making a F.R.E.I.J.A. weapon which caused her to be later recruited into the project and help to perfect it in time to kill millions of people in the wars of the second season.
    Did Lelouch force Nina to construct F.R.E.I.J.A?
    No
    this was the fault/outcome of Ninas actions.
    Lelouch may have been an excuse but the blame for that device is squarely resting on Ninas shoulders and any blame can only be peripherally attributed to Lelouch.
    And I keep saying that Lelouch could have saved the Japanese by capturing Euphie, which would have been just as good for the Japanese and a lot better for her.
    Depends.
    Euphie could have been a disaster either way.
    You actually expect me to believe that Euphemia would become a tiger by the tail if Lelouch captured her? You say that she still has enough of a reputation left that using her as a hostage to save Japanese lives will tarnish Zero's reputation but killing her will not tarnish his reputation?
    either way you look at it the tarnishing of his reputation would be inevitable if he publically captured her.
    If he kills her he murdered a beloved member of the royal family.
    If he captures her she becomes a pawn to be used against him. (Even if he takes her alive and says she is dead she can still be used against him)
    Only with her confirmed death can he then lay the blame on her and shift attention to the person who (although unwillingly) started the massacre without looking like a mastermind of a massacre of his own people.
    Of course Lelouch could always lie about the circumstances and say that he killed Euphemia while she was about to kill a bunch of Japanese people. But if he's going to lie that much he might as well take her prisoner and lie about killing her.
    again this is a double edged sword as the royal family can equally contend he is merely holding her captive (as she will not be proven dead) and stir up anti-Zero support
    I didn't hear Euphie screaming in pain and begging for Lelouch to shoot her. When he shot her she asked him why. She didn't want to die. Euphie didn't have to stop the horror she was inflicting. Locking her up would do that for her.
    So are you trying to say Euphie had no problem with a massacre at her own command?
    Why could also be asking why this was happening.
    and locking her up could have long term ramifications
    If the geass command was an accident, killing Euphemia was not. It was not an inevitable result of the accident. After Euphemia's nightmare was destroyed it was just one unarmed girl facing two of the most powerful nightmares in the world. She could have been killed or captured in many different ways. Lelouch could choose to kill or capture her by many different methods. He was not forced to kill her. he chose to kill her using a method which took advantage of her trust and love for him, instead of capturing he by, for example, simply picking her up in a and of his giant robot.
    Politically and strategically the best course of action for Zero, the black knights and all japanese was the death of Euphemia.
    Alive and she is a propoganda weapon against Zero.
    Dead she is a Tyrant and propoganda for Zero.
    many of Lelouch's (and those of most other characters)actions were far more evil than any good and decent solider would do.
    Such as?
    Euphemia at the battle of Narita was a commander who who followed the highest code of ethics, and Suzaku in the first season was a highly honorable warrior. Their examples could be considered criticism of typical Britannian behavior and attempts to change it by example.
    Euphemia was in alot of ways a pacifist so her trying to follow a code of ethics is hardly surprising.
    Suzaku is one of the worst IMO. He fights in favor of an oppressive regeme with little regard for what he is doing.
    I found his total worthy achievements in the first season were virtually non-existant
    You damn Lelouch with very, very, very, very faint praise if you say that he is no better or worse than many of the other fighters around him. Lelouch is no worse than Charles! Leouch is no worse than Schenitzel! Lelouch is no worse than Kallen!
    I never said Lelouch was a hero.
    I merely said he was not entirely a villain.
    And as a soldier I would not expect a character to be free of any wrongdoings and while Lelouch made his fair share of mistakes and dubious calls he was hardly alone in regard to the soldiering world.
    But to call him a villain is hardly fitting as in a similar situation to obtain the same goals how many other characters would have had the fortitude to perservere for the brighter future he invisioned (even at the expense of himslef)
    I have claimed that as far as I know only Euphemia, Shirley, Milly, and Rivalez never did anything evil themselves nor were contaminated by fighting on the same same side as evil doers.
    Euphie I can agree with.
    She selflessly toiled for the betterment of everyone and her only stain was the result of irresistable compulsion.
    However with the others I would hardly credit that.
    They were minor characters with little to do and less sacrifices to make.
    Even Shirly in the end had few decisions to make even remotely close to the moral and strategic significance of the likes of Suzaku and Lelouch.
    they may be blameless and free of major evils but then they are also devoid of any major good to the story as a whole making a comparison between them and the likes of Lelouch an effort in fultility.
    Last edited by MangaFanGuy; 09-04-2009 at 12:16 AM.

  18. #43
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ichimoku_fanboy View Post
    i can only think to ansewer this with a personal quote of mine -

    "One must dirty one's hands to clean a mess, no?"

    he did what was necessary to cripple a superpower-nation, the most powerful might i add, diplomatic or peaceful means would be far to risky and take possibly 30+ years for him to even come close, but those are my opinions...


    in the end, i declare him a hero, cuz true heroes dont wanna be recognized for their work, only selfish children run around declaring how great they are for cleaning up someone else's mess, Lelouche didnt want recognition for his actions, therefore i declare him both selfless, but selfish in his desire for a new world, even though he had purely selfish reasons for doing so...
    I keep saying that murdering Euphemia and ordering the geass directorate massacre were not necessary evils, that they were not necessary for the Zero requiem to work. Thus when Lelouch committed them he was dirying his hands to make the mess dirtier, not to clean it up.

    You say that diplomatic or peaceful means would be too risky. I don't see how they would been any riskier than starting wars and revolutions. And you say that peaceful means might take thirty years. The Basque terrorist organization ETA and the Tamil rebel organization Tamil Tigers have been around for thirty years and they haven't had much success.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I keep saying that murdering Euphemia and ordering the geass directorate massacre were not necessary evils, that they were not necessary for the Zero requiem to work. Thus when Lelouch committed them he was dirying his hands to make the mess dirtier, not to clean it up.

    You say that diplomatic or peaceful means would be too risky. I don't see how they would been any riskier than starting wars and revolutions. And you say that peaceful means might take thirty years. The Basque terrorist organization ETA and the Tamil rebel organization Tamil Tigers have been around for thirty years and they haven't had much success.
    Oh Lordy Lord. Of course you keep on saying it, that's why you keep on annoying people.

    Your idea of a mess is not his idea of a mess. Massacres were required, for him, because he wants to rebuild the world.

    They would be. Zero is an anti-hero (or villain), remember. He. DOES NOT. Take the diplomatic way. And besides, the LTTE and ETA haven't been doing much for the past thirty years. Nothing that largely affects the world.

    And you have to take into view CONTEXT. Basically, Lelouch's rise takes place in Japan, and not much of the rest of the world is shown. That is because the anime only focuses there, and other countries don't do much. So, in the case of both the real world and this anime world, what would seem like small events in the context of the ENTIRE WORLD would seem really big in the country itself. So for example, in idea it would seem a really big deal with people dying and all, but if you were in the United States, you wouldn't think much about it.

    Get it, finally? I'm hoping you do.


    「そんな顔をしないで。また会えるよ、シンジ君」
    ---

    もう二度と会えないなんて信じられない
    まだ何も伝えてない
    まだ何も伝えてない


    I'm sorry (not) sorry.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I define an evil person, as I have said in other posts, as one who has committed at least one evil act in his life, and has not repented and atoned sufficiently for it - if atonement for that act is even theoretically possible, which may be disputed and argued about. I think that if a person is basically good they will not do even one evil thing in their life.

    But being in the same organization, or loose group of organizations working for one common cause, as people who commit massacres and/or terrorism and not quitting in disgust or protesting or doing something to make massacres and/or terrorism a less common practice by those on your side, makes you an accessory or accomplice in my view.
    Wow...you are beginning to look like a troll.

    Your definition of an "evil person" (again, evil is a very relative concept) causes an extreme case of guilt by association. A person who does an evil act (again evil is relative) is automatically an evil person and anybody who associates with that person is evil (if they didn't try to stop said person). Basically, if a soldier killed someone (with you, killing under any circumstance is evil; believe me, I can quote you on this), I am just as guilty as him since I am also in the military and didn't stop him. If a police officer gets an order to shoot and does (and doesn't regret it), he is evil, the commander is evil (for giving the order), his coworkers that were with him are evil (for not stopping him) and all other police officers and affiliating organizations are evil (for simply being associated with the officer in question).

    With that definition, almost all of the characters in Code Geass are evil, including Euphemia, because she is a Britannian (guilty by association). She may have criticized the actions of the Britannians but she never actively did anything to stop them from fighting and attacking (she even participated in the Battle of Narita of her own free will; she did not even try to stop the attack) nor did she up and leave the Britannian family in disgust (which she should have done the minute that she was able to understand what was going on); she did ultimately leave but only after the creation of the SAZ and as a part of the creation of the SAZ, not because she was disgusted. And, to make up for the invasion of Japan and the deaths of many Japanese, Euphemia decides to give them a portion of their land back? Yeah...that doesn't cut it, with your definition that the deed done must equally make up for the crime committed (again, your definition makes Euphemia guilty by association as a Britannian who did not actively stop any of the actions of the other Britannians).

    Of course, that is just my opinion and I would rather not talk about that any further. You could PM me, but both of us know that it is not going to matter (I sincerely suggest that you give up on this annoying crusade).

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    It might if those evil deeds were directly necessary for the succeess of the Zero Requiem. But since Lelouch could have have achieved the Zero Requiem without murdering Euphie or ordering the geass directorate Massacre those evil deeds were totally unrelated to achieving his noble goal and thus were totally unnecessary and evil deeds which the Zero Requiem cannot make up for.
    Again, that ENTIRE argument is a moot point since Lelouch did not plan the Zero Requiem until AFTER Euphemia's death, hence the reason why part of the Requiem was to erase Euphemia's tarnished name.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You think I'm frightening? All I'm trying to do is find someone who shares my outrage and disgust at being expected by cynical tv producers to keep on liking Lelouch despite seeing him murder Euphemia needlessly. I find all the thousands and possibly millions of Code Geass fans who can keep liking Lelouch despite seeing him murder Euphie just as frightening as you find me.
    What are you talking about?! Its a freaking CARTOON! The producers of Code Geass are not expecting you to do ANYTHING!! If you like Lelouch, fine. If you hate Lelouch, fine. They really do not care what your opinion of him is. Seriously, they really do not care. In fact, they purposely made the series complex so that there would be multiple opinions about Lelouch and no person would be right or wrong (note the word "opinion").

    Your opinion about Lelouch is no more right or wrong than the opinions of everyone else here and I think everyone else here would agree with me on that. HOWEVER, you want to say that because he is evil, if we like him, there MUST be something wrong with us, which is why you feel comfortable by riding on a "moral" high horse and calling our morals into question and saying that we must have "latent violent tendencies" (yes, you did say this) for liking a particular CARTOON CHARACTER!!

    I honestly do not care about your opinions about Lelouch and Euphemia. I am not saying that your opinions are wrong; I am saying that I do not care and I am not the only person who shares this sentiment. I certainly do not need to hear them in every other blasted forum that you lay your eyes on. Did it EVER occur to you that if you wanted to find like minded people who felt the same way about Euphemia that you did, that you should start a THREAD about it (amazingly, you have yet to do a "Do you like Euphemia" or a "Were you upset by Euphemia's death" thread)?!

    We are discussing a CARTOON! Not real life, not a reality show, not a live action movie, but a CARTOON!!

    If the death of a cartoon character shatters your reality SO MUCH that you can't handle it, that you must inform everyone about how "sad" it was, that you feel the need to call the morals of other people into question for the simple fact that they have a differing opinion than yours, then I suggest that you get off mommy and daddy's computer, since you are obviously either not old enough or mature enough to handle a discussion like this, and stop bringing up her death as if it caused the Earth to stop and the angels to cry out in agony. In fact, order a couple volumes of Tales of an Alternate Shogunate, where Euphemia is alive and well, so that you can enjoy Euphemia ON YOUR OWN!!
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 09-04-2009 at 05:28 PM.
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  21. #46
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Wow...you are beginning to look like a troll.

    Your definition of an "evil person" (again, evil is a very relative concept) causes an extreme case of guilt by association. A person who does an evil act (again evil is relative) is automatically an evil person and anybody who associates with that person is evil (if they didn't try to stop said person). Basically, if a soldier killed someone (with you, killing under any circumstance is evil; believe me, I can quote you on this), I am just as guilty as him since I am also in the military and didn't stop him. If a police officer gets an order to shoot and does (and doesn't regret it), he is evil, the commander is evil (for giving the order), his coworkers that were with him are evil (for not stopping him) and all other police officers and affiliating organizations are evil (for simply being associated with the officer in question).
    You are simplifying and over simplifying what I wrote. If you want to find the quote where I supposedly wrote that killing under any circumstances is always evil please go look for it.

    But I never wrote that it would be impossible for it ever to be right to kill even such a wonderfully good person as Euphemia. Here is a quote from my post # 124 in Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight:

    Beginning of quote.

    And no, I don't believe that it could never be right to kill an innocent person like Euphemia, no matter what the circumstances. This link: http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/1...498747__19.htm takes you to an online version of the short science fiction story "The Cold Equations", by Tom Godwin, in which a situation is created in which it is necessary and thus more or less "right" to kill an innocent person. And this link: http://home.tiac.net/~cri_d/cri/1999/coldeq.html will take you to a discussion of that story and the controversies it caused and a critique of the fictional universe of that story.

    Science fiction author Robert Heinlein once wrote wrote that a competent person would be capable of taking care of a baby or killing it if necessary (probably in the Notebook of Lazarus Long). For a long time I couldn't imagine any circumstances when it would be necessary to kill a baby but just a few months ago I thought of a (possible) example.

    Suppose you argue with a stranger, claiming that it could never be right under any circumstances to kill an innocent person like Euphemia. The stranger vows to make you change your mind. Unknown to you, the stranger is actually supervillain Ima Devil. So you regain consciousness tied up so you can use only one finger to press one button on a control device placed in reach. Ima Devil tells you that a baby had been placed on the steps of the orphanage at 8:10 pm and the next routine check will be at 9:00 PM The baby has been infected with a disease that will become airborne soon after 9:00 PM and spread to the other babies in the orphanage. They will all be dead within days. But now the disease is still in the state where it needs the warmth of a human body to survive. If you press the button it will give the baby a lethal injection and the baby will quickly die and cool off enough to kill the disease with minutes to spare before the 9:00 PM check finds the baby.

    If you believe that Ima Devil has told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth (which is a big if) you might accept that you have no choice but to press the button that Ima Devil says will kill the baby and save the other babies in the orphanage.

    (Devil is a real surname, a variation of De Ville, etc. http://www.surnamedb.com/surname.aspx?name=Devil. Ima is a real personal name, used by Texas socialite and philanthropist Ima Hogg, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ima_Hogg, and according to books on bad baby names also by Ima Pigg, Ima Nutt, Ima Pain, Ima Hooker, etc.)

    In the case of the "The Cold Equations" an innocent person had to die by suicide and/or murder because 1) that person would have died within minutes anyway, and 2) giving that innocent person the extra few minutes of life would result in death for a number of other persons.

    In my example, if Ima Devil is telling the truth the baby on the doorstep has to die now because: 1) It will be dead within days anyway, and 2) giving it those extra few days of life will result in death for the other babies in the orphanage.

    Can anybody say that Euphemia had to die because: 1) she would have died within minutes (or days or some other specified time) anyway and 2) because her survival would inevitably, by the operation of the laws of physics and other sciences, result in the deaths of other people?

    No. There is no logical way to assert that either 1) or 2) is correct, let alone both.

    End of quotation from my post # 124.

    clearly I accepted when I wrote it that it sometimes is right to kill, and even that it could possibly be right to kill someone who you know is as innocent as Euphemia. I simply denied that there was any justification for killing Euphemia in Code Geass.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Your definition of an "evil person" (again, evil is a very relative concept) causes an extreme case of guilt by association. If a police officer gets an order to shoot and does (and doesn't regret it), he is evil, the commander is evil (for giving the order), his coworkers that were with him are evil (for not stopping him) and all other police officers and affiliating organizations are evil (for simply being associated with the officer in question).
    If a police officer gets an order to shoot the result will be either:
    1) He rightly obeys a justified order to shoot.
    2) He wrongly obeys an unjustified order to shoot.
    3) He rightly disobeys an unjustified order to shoot.
    4) He wrongly disobeys a justified order to shoot.

    Fortunately in the US most police orders to shoot are more or less justified. Anyway, I only believe that the police officer in question is guilty is guilty of murder when he obeys an unjustified order to shoot. And thus the question of how much guilt the coworkers may have only arises when there is some guilt to be shared.

    And what do you mean by:
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    If a police officer gets an order to shoot and does (and doesn't regret it), he is evil
    Did I ever write that regretting something makes someone not guilty of doing it? A number of people have suggested that Lelouch was not guilty of Euphemia's murder because he sometimes regretted it. Have you read any of my discussions about regret and guilt feelings or should I paste one in from one of my other posts?

    I say in several posts that almost everyone feels at least a little guilt and regret for killing someone, no matter how justified or unjustified the killing was, and that therefore regret for killing someone is no evidence that the killing was not murder.

    Your claim that I wrote that regret for a deed makes someone not guilty of it is not accurate and makes me seem to accept other people's arguments which I in fact reject. Your point is moot because you are refuting things I did not write.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    With that definition, almost all of the characters in Code Geass are evil, including Euphemia, because she is a Britannian (guilty by association). She may have criticized the actions of the Britannians but she never actively did anything to stop them from fighting and attacking (she even participated in the Battle of Narita of her own free will; she did not even try to stop the attack) nor did she up and leave the Britannian family in disgust (which she should have done the minute that she was able to understand what was going on); she did ultimately leave but only after the creation of the SAZ and as a part of the creation of the SAZ, not because she was disgusted. And, to make up for the invasion of Japan and the deaths of many Japanese, Euphemia decides to give them a portion of their land back? Yeah...that doesn't cut it, with your definition that the deed done must equally make up for the crime committed (again, your definition makes Euphemia guilty by association as a Britannian who did not actively stop any of the actions of the other Britannians).
    Here is part of my definition from my post # 29:

    "But being in the same organization, or loose group of organizations working for one common cause, as people who commit massacres and/or terrorism and not quitting in disgust or protesting or doing something to make massacres and/or terrorism a less common practice by those on your side, makes you an accessory or accomplice in my view."

    You object to my definition because it would make almost all the Code Geass characters evil. Here is another quotation from my post #29:

    "As near as I can tell the only characters who never did anything evil were Euphemia, Shirley, Milly, and Rivalez."

    Of course Shirley, Milly, and Rivalez are pretty much lightweights compared to the adult characters or the teenagers with serious responsibilities. So that leaves Euphemia as pretty much the only character who is innocent, and does positive good, and is serious due to important responsibilities.

    Clearly I am claiming that most of the Code Geass characters are evil. They are evil because of their own evil deeds or because they accept the evil practices of their organizations without quitting in disgust, or protesting, or doing something to make massacre and/or terrorism a less common practice by their side.

    'm going to bed, to be continued.

    I did not claim, for example, that every member of the Union army had to quit in disgust over the Sand creek Massacre in November 1864, or because of t eh orders which General Carlton allegedly gave in the winter of 1864 to 1865 to exterminate all the hostile Western Apaches. These things were little know in the east where most of the news was about the Civil war, and they were not policies of the government or the army as a whole.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Of course, that is just my opinion and I would rather not talk about that any further. You could PM me, but both of us know that it is not going to matter (I sincerely suggest that you give up on this annoying crusade).



    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Again, that ENTIRE argument is a moot point since Lelouch did not plan the Zero Requiem until AFTER Euphemia's death, hence the reason why part of the Requiem was to erase Euphemia's tarnished name.



    [quote=wolfgirl90;2324757]What are you talking about?! Its a freaking CARTOON! The producers of Code Geass are not expecting you to do ANYTHING!! If you like Lelouch, fine. If you hate Lelouch, fine. They really do not care what your opinion of him is. Seriously, they really do not care. In fact, they purposely made the series complex so that there would be multiple opinions about Lelouch and no person would be right or wrong (note the word "opinion").

    Your opinion about Lelouch is no more right or wrong than the opinions of everyone else here and I think everyone else here would agree with me on that. HOWEVER, you want to say that because he is evil, if we like him, there MUST be something wrong with us, which is why you feel comfortable by riding on a "moral" high horse and calling our morals into question and saying that we must have "latent violent tendencies" (yes, you did say this) for liking a particular CARTOON CHARACTER!!

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    I honestly do not care about your opinions about Lelouch and Euphemia. I am not saying that your opinions are wrong; I am saying that I do not care and I am not the only person who shares this sentiment. I certainly do not need to hear them in every other blasted forum that you lay your eyes on. Did it EVER occur to you that if you wanted to find like minded people who felt the same way about Euphemia that you did, that you should start a THREAD about it (amazingly, you have yet to do a "Do you like Euphemia" or a "Were you upset by Euphemia's death" thread)?!

    We are discussing a CARTOON! Not real life, not a reality show, not a live action movie, but a CARTOON!!

    If the death of a cartoon character shatters your reality SO MUCH that you can't handle it, that you must inform everyone about how "sad" it was, that you feel the need to call the morals of other people into question for the simple fact that they have a differing opinion than yours, then I suggest that you get off mommy and daddy's computer, since you are obviously either not old enough or mature enough to handle a discussion like this, and stop bringing up her death as if it caused the Earth to stop and the angels to cry out in agony. In fact, order a couple volumes of Tales of an Alternate Shogunate, where Euphemia is alive and well, so that you can enjoy Euphemia ON YOUR OWN!!
    Last edited by proEuphie; 09-05-2009 at 08:39 PM.

  22. #47
    Senior Member +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+'s Avatar
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    Quote: "
    So you claim that mutilating a website is even worse than having someone helpless at the feet of your two giant robots and killing them instead of capturing them."

    No.

    I dont.

    You seem to think that everyone, like yourself, has ability to differenciate real life from anime.

    But anime characters are not "someone" they are ink and pixels of color. Therefore, the death of insignificant secondary characters who just managed to get on my nerves every time they opened their mouth(Euphie) MAKES ME GIGGLE.

    And mutilating a website is worse than killing an anime character. Im sure every one in the world can live with the animated bombing/shooting/poisoning/impaling/vaporization/spiritual department of an animated character.

    If you feel bad for anyone, feel bad for their voice actor, who was out of a job after they died.

    Quote: "I didn't. I lost interest in the story. What suspense can there be when the character who has ninety percent of all the goodness in the cast of dozens has already been murdered."

    THEN WHY THE HECK ARE YOU IN THIS FORUM?
    WATCH THE WHOLE SERIES BEFORE YOU INSTIGATE A WAR ABOUT IT.
    DUR!

    You obviously are so close minded that you would never listen to someone's half of the story. Code Geass is not a show for children, which is what your are acting like. You remind me of Nina. Geez. Do you sit at home screaming "ZEEEEEEEEERRRRROOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!" ?

    Euphie wants you to pwease stop embarrassing her 3:>


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    Because Friendship is MAGIC!

  23. #48
    Cold-Blooded IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess's Avatar
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    +Namiko+, You are so damn right! But I don't actually think ProEuphie will read this. I wrote a post telling her to stop, because I created it to not argue, but to just tell your own opinion, but she just ignored it.(Aw, I think I will not create any more threads in Code Geass section, because ProEuphie will flood them all).
    She should really watch R2, or else she has no right to judge Lelouch, just because she loved Euphemia(How the hell can somebody love her?). BTW LElouch said that he did commit crimes(When he became the emperor), but he'll commit them more to erase the name of "Murdered princess". So That just shows that ProEuphie has no right to judge Lelouch.
    I would like to ask(Normal people) to write their opinion, so that I won't see Proeuphie's flood anymore.
    Thank you for reading....
    Annoyed ~IcePriestess
    It is stupid to be afraid to die, but the most stupid thing is to be afraid to live.

  24. #49
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Gamertag: DisturbedWiccan PSN ID: Wolfdragon63 Steam ID: Wolfgirl90

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    ProEuphie, again, I understood what you were trying to say (your responses are really too long for a small post; I mean, technically you are on topic [sort of] but let's stop with the HUGE posts). I said there was a flaw in your argument that caused Euphemia to be guilty by association (not AS guilty as the other Britannians but still guilty), not that you were completely wrong, so there was no point in trying to prove that you are right. Again, it was my opinion...which was the point of the thread...to present one's opinion, not prove that yours is right.

    And again, I don't really care about you liking Euphemia. Honestly, there is absolutely nothing that you can do that that will change my opinion of Euphemia. In MY opinion, I think that she is the illegitimate love-child of Lacus Clyne and Relena Peacecraft and, just like Relena, she was so annoying I wanted her to be shot (as you and I both know, that is exactly what happened). However, that is MY opinion, one that is neither right or wrong. Trying to say that I am wrong or that I must have something wrong with me is not going to change my mind about Euphemia (or any other character, such as Lelouch); its just annoying.

    If she is your favorite character, fine. If you think that she is a goddess and the best character around, fine. And you are free to state your opinion...where it is needed. Invading every other thread to talk about how terrible and unnecessary her death was is not only not going to help you find like-minded people, but it also annoys the crap out of everyone else, especially when you use the straw man fallacy to assume that there must be something wrong with us or that its "frightening" if we don't express long-term outrage and deep sorrow over the death of a cartoon character (one that appeared in 18/50 episodes).

    If all you want to do is talk to other people who were saddened by Euphemia's death and/or are outraged that "the producers want the audience to sympathize with Lelouch", then fine. That's okay. But please make a thread about it, go to a Euphemia fan site (or start one yourself), or something but don't try to push this "Lelouch is bad because he killed my favorite character" spiel into every thread because its not going to help.

    And let's end it at that. You might post a couple of replies after this one, but I most likely will ignore them unless they are truly relevant to the thread (which they probably won't be).
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 09-05-2009 at 08:50 PM.
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  25. #50
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcePriestess View Post
    +Namiko+, You are so damn right! But I don't actually think ProEuphie will read this. I wrote a post telling her to stop, because I created it to not argue, but to just tell your own opinion, but she just ignored it.(Aw, I think I will not create any more threads in Code Geass section, because ProEuphie will flood them all).
    She should really watch R2, or else she has no right to judge Lelouch, just because she loved Euphemia(How the hell can somebody love her?). BTW LElouch said that he did commit crimes(When he became the emperor), but he'll commit them more to erase the name of "Murdered princess". So That just shows that ProEuphie has no right to judge Lelouch.
    I would like to ask(Normal people) to write their opinion, so that I won't see Proeuphie's flood anymore.
    Thank you for reading....
    Annoyed ~IcePriestess
    How can you say that I have no right to judge Lelouch without seeing the second season?

    If you went back in time to 1938 and heard someone denouchng the evil of Hitler, or Stalin, would you tell them they didn't have to right to judge Hitler or Stalin until their whole careers were over?

    And if a magic spell suddenly turned Hitler and Stalin good in 1938 and they saved the world from terrible evils and did wonderful good deeds, you could not deny that they were still guilty of all the murders and other evil deeds they committed before 1938. I could still rightfully say that they did evil deeds before 1938.

    And remember that I am only judging Lelouch for the murder of Euphemia which I witnessed, and not for the geass directorate massacre which I only read about. Encouraging me to watch the second season and see the geass directorate massacre and get fired up about it is not a good idea from your point of view!

    I guess I will probably get out of the habit of posting in this thread and other threads. If I do you can create as many new threads as you like without worrying about me. But remember I am not giving up on trying to convince you of my point of view because I think you don't deserve to be pestered but because it is not working.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 09-05-2009 at 10:11 PM.

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