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Thread: Lelouch(Zero) - Villain or Hero of Justice?

  1. #1
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    Thumbs up Lelouch(Zero) - Villain or Hero of Justice?

    Well I think that's quite an interesting topic, because even though I like Lelouch very much, I can't tell if he is Villain or Hero of Justice.
    But still I would go with the Hero of Justice, because he sacrificed his own life in order for world to become a better place to live. He collected all world's hatred. I know you can tell that many people died, but there was a need for that. I just can't believe that he was a very bad person.

    So tell me what you think - Is Lelouch(Zero) a Villain or a Hero of Justice?

    P.S. I don't see the thread like this, but if you've seen this somewhere please tell me where
    Last edited by IcePriestess; 08-12-2009 at 01:29 PM.
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    i swear i've already answered to a question like this >.<

    oh well, i think lelouch is neither a villain nor a hero. he killed a lot of people to gain peace. i dont think that killing is the way to go for a hero. he did achieve his goal to end war so he is somehow a hero.
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    He is neither hero or villain. Like lilminx said he killed many people but e did stop the war.

  4. #4
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Both, but more of a villain.
    I say that Lelouch committed three terrible crimes in addition to many deeds which many people can argue whether they were crimes or not:
    !) He went to the opening of the SAZ planning to make Euphemia shoot him, and then come back to life, convincing the Japanese that he was their messiah and sparking a bloody revolution in which thousands of people who wanted to live would be tricked into being killed for his plans.
    This was a plan for mass murder, as well as probably the individual murder of Euphemia.
    As part of this plan Lelouch told Euphemia he would make her shoot him. After Lelouch gave up his plan Euphie asked him if he could really make her shoot him, which led to his giving the command to order the massacre. Thus all the deaths in the Fuji Massacre and the Black Rebellion: Euphemia, Japanese, Britannians, were a direct result of his earlier evil plan for mass murder. Everyone who died in the Fuji massacre was murdered by Lelouch, and by CC if she was in on the plan.

    2) Killing Euphemia when it would have been so easy to simply pick her up in the hand of a giant robot as soon as her nightmare was destroyed. And Lelouch let Euphie pick up and keep a machine gun, and then left the safety of his armored nightmare to approuch her. Lelouch believed that as long as he did not act threatening Euphemia would love and trust him too much for the geass command to make her shoot him.

    There can never be any imaginable justification for killing someone who would have been so easy to capture alive as Euphemia would have been. Killing her was one of the most evil murders ever shown on television. Lelouch went from hero to Zero in my opinion when he pulled the trigger.

    And as a result of the murder of Euphemia, Nina tried to make and use a F.R.E.I.J.A. device, and as a result of that later joined the team which developed F.R.E.I.J.A. in time to kill millions during the wars of the second season.

    3 The geass directorate massacre. How can there be a justification for massacring thousands of people? If some of them were evila nds ome were dangerious with geass powers, they could have been captured and Lleouch could have given them all geass commands to do only good and/or obey all his orders and he would have gained more followers and avoided killing children.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-30-2009 at 10:06 PM.

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    everyone else has said hes more of a villian, but i think he is definately a hero of justice. My reason why is that alllthroughout the aniem, yes he did kill many, yes he did commit "wrong" deeds, but in times such as what he was living in, he always made the best possible decisions. HIs ultimaate goal was peace, which he achieved, and even though some of his tactics were underhanded, in the end, the deaths of the many that were sacrificed unfairly is repayed by the gratitude of the millions whom are now living in peace. And what makes him even more of a hero is that this was all self-less, in the sense that he fell britannia, gave the world peace, and even though he is their great savior and ultimately the bringer of peace, his name will go down in infammy as the evil king lelouch.

  6. #6
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    Hero.
    Yes, he killed people, but dont all War Heroes? Thats what makes them War Heroes.

    Hero. He committed one of the most selfless acts I can think of. He made his life hell so everyone would hate him, then killed himself to make every other person on Earth Happier. If that is not a hero I don't know what is.

    Hero.
    :'3


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    He's an anti-hero, a hero who just doesnt play by the rules

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    Everytime I say he's a hero of justice I think of something makes me think differently but I say he's both but more of a Hero of Justice. <3 sorry if that was confusing
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  9. #9
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    Hey he's a hero a villian couldn't perform as well as him. Not even Joker himself.

  10. #10
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    He's a hero in my book.

    It doesn't matter if he killed alot of people, in the end, he sacrificed himself to bring about peace, and if self sacrifice for the greater good isn't what makes you a hero, I don't know what is.

  11. #11
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    He's neither because the World of Code Geass isn't black&white.

  12. #12
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yakman1692 View Post
    He's a hero in my book.

    It doesn't matter if he killed alot of people, in the end, he sacrificed himself to bring about peace, and if self sacrifice for the greater good isn't what makes you a hero, I don't know what is.
    Well, even if self sacrifice for the good of others always makes someone a hero, it is not enough to undo one's villainous acts. And Lelouch committed at least some villainous act. So if you are right about self sacrifice always making someone a hero, Lelouch is both a hero and a villain.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-25-2009 at 08:31 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Wolf View Post
    He's neither because the World of Code Geass isn't black&white.
    Well, I think that Lelouch was a dark enough shade of gray to fall well within the villain category much too often.

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    Hero.
    Yes, he killed people, but dont all War Heroes? Thats what makes them War Heroes
    Agreed :]


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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    Hero.
    Yes, he killed people, but dont all War Heroes? Thats what makes them War Heroes.

    Hero. He committed one of the most selfless acts I can think of. He made his life hell so everyone would hate him, then killed himself to make every other person on Earth Happier. If that is not a hero I don't know what is.

    Hero.
    :'3
    Technically it is not correct that all war heroes kill people. For example, many present day medals of honor are awarded posthumously for sacrificing one's own life to save the lives of one's comrades. The classic example is leaping on a hand grenade and smothering and adsorbing the explosion and the deadly fragments with your own body to save the lives of others.

    Some of the soldiers who did that type of thing may have killed people previously, but that is not what they were honored for. And some of them did not kill anyone in their military careers

    Thus it is perfectly possible to be a war hero without killing anyone.

    And killing people does not always make a hero out of a warrior. Did Jefferson Davis become a hero for shooting General Nelson during the Civil War? No.

    He wasn't the Confederate president, but Union General Jefferson C. Davis, the butt of a number of jokes. And why didn't shooting a Confederate general make Jefferson C. Davis a hero? Because General Nelson was a U.S. general and Davis's commanding officer when Davis shot him during a quarrel.

    Contrary to your assumption, killing people is not always necessary or sufficient to make someone a war hero.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-30-2009 at 10:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Technically it is not correct that all war heroes kill people. For example, many present day medals of honor are awarded posthumously for sacrificing one's own life to save the lives of one's comrades. The classic example is leaping on a hand grenade and smothering and adsorbing the explosion and the deadly fragments with your own body to save the lives of others.

    Some of the soldiers who did that type of thing may have killed people previously, but that is not what they were honored for. And some of them did not kill anyone in their military careers

    Thus it is perfectly possible to be a war hero without killing anyone.

    And killing people does not always make a hero out of a warrior. Did Jefferson Davis become a hero for shooting General Nelson during the Civil War? No.

    He wasn't the Confederate president, but Union General Jefferson C. Davis, the butt of a number of jokes. And why didn't shooting a Confederate general make Jefferson C. Davis a hero? Because General Nelson was a U.S. general and Davis's commanding officer when Davis shot him during a quarrel.

    Contrary to your assumption, killing people is not always necessary or sufficient to make someone a war hero.
    The status of "war hero" is conveyed upon people who selflessly either kill people for whatever nation-state they may be fighting for, or risking their own life to aid others in killing people for their nation state. No one has ever become a war hero making bread for soldiers for the duration- you have to be in the theater of operation as a soldier for the purpose of killing enemy soldiers or assisting in the killing of enemy soldiers. Killing people isn't sufficient, but the person you quoted never said that all soldiers that kill people are war heroes, only that it's a prerequisite. You can disagree if you want but killing strongly correlates with the status of war hero for obvious reasons.

    But thanks for ignoring the gist of his post, blatantly misreading the errata and going on a tirade over a moot point.
    Last edited by Manhattan_Project_2000; 08-26-2009 at 10:16 PM.
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    i think he is just a person who likes peace for her sister..

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post

    And killing people does not always make a hero out of a warrior. Did Jefferson Davis become a hero for shooting General Nelson during the Civil War? No.

    He wasn't the Confederate president, but Union General Jefferson C. Davis, the butt of a number of jokes. And why didn't shooting a Confederate general make Jefferson C. Davis a hero? Because General Nelson was a U.S. general and Davis's commanding officer when Davis shot him during a quarrel.

    Contrary to your assumption, killing people is not always necessary or sufficient to make someone a war hero.
    Nice logic, proEuphie. Of all the examples you could have used, you used Jefferson C. Davis as proof of your point?

    Honestly, its pretty obvious that ANY soldier that killed his commanding officer for something as petty as being slapped in the face is not going to be named a war hero for their actions (for the killing, anyway). They would most likely receive a court-martial and sent to prison and possibly executed...which, as you MUST have known, did not happen to Davis.

    He avoided conviction (they apparently needed some experienced field commanders) and went on serve in several more battles and wars, including the Modoc War where his presence was actually celebrated by the soldiers who were there and his campaign lead to the eventual surrender of some enemy leaders (like Bogus Charley and Captain Jack), which lead Davis to be later celebrated as...a war hero.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Nice logic, proEuphie. Of all the examples you could have used, you used Jefferson C. Davis as proof of your point?

    Honestly, its pretty obvious that ANY soldier that killed his commanding officer for something as petty as being slapped in the face is not going to be named a war hero for their actions (for the killing, anyway). They would most likely receive a court-martial and sent to prison and possibly executed...which, as you MUST have known, did not happen to Davis.

    He avoided conviction (they apparently needed some experienced field commanders) and went on serve in several more battles and wars, including the Modoc War where his presence was actually celebrated by the soldiers who were there and his campaign lead to the eventual surrender of some enemy leaders (like Bogus Charley and Captain Jack), which lead Davis to be later celebrated as...a war hero.
    I used Jefferson C Davis as a somewhat humorous example of the fact that killing someone doesn't always make a war hero and sometimes unmakes a war hero or respected commander. Davis wasted a lot of his hard earned respect and military reputation and chances for promotion in not being punished for the murder of Nelson.

    After the war he became the colonel of the 23rd US Infantry but was stationed on very detached duty or exile as commander of the military Department of Alaska, where the Indian fighting was mostly navel vessels shelling coastal Indian villiages. While the 23rd was commanded by the Lieutenant Colonel, George Crook, who gained fame in the Paiute and Apache wars.

    Then in 1870 Alaska was reduced to a military district within the Department of the Columbia about a month before the current commander of the Department of the Columbia was relieved - who happened to be Lt. Col. Crook. And in 1873 Crook was promoted straight to brigadier general. Davis must have often wondered how much of this was planned by his superiors to try to make up for the punishment he had escaped.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-30-2009 at 02:21 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I used Jefferson C Davis as a somewhat humorous example of the fact that killing someone doesn't always make a war hero and sometimes unmakes a war hero or respected commander. Davis wasted a lot of his hard earned respect and military reputation and chances for promotion in not being punished for the murder of Nelson.
    I understand what you were trying to say, but you are not organizing your thoughts very well. We all know that killing someone does not automatically make one a war hero and that one can be a war hero for sacrificing their lives for their comrades (you would think that I, of all people, would already know this). However, bare in mind that, while those soldiers are not being recognized for killing people, that does not mean that they certainly did not kill anyone (doing so, like you have done, would be a logical fallacy). Sure, a soldier can receive high honors for sacrificing their lives to protect their comrades but that does not mean that they did not, at any point in time, kill someone (because they easily might have).

    Davis certainly did not receive any positive recognition for killing his commanding officer (I seriously doubt that ANY soldier would). However, your logic is flawed because Davis was never convicted for this serious crime and went on to serve in many wars and battles AFTER killing Nelson and received the rank of Brevet Major General (while not a full Major General, the rank of Major General was the highest rank that a man could receive at the time, quite a high rank for someone who killed their commanding officer) and went on to become a war hero, despite the fact he killed Nelson over a slap in the face and a few insults.

    You are effectively making a moot point since Davis, regardless of his previous actions, still became quite the war hero.

    When it comes to Lelouch, again, no is (or was) saying that his killing of people made him a war hero (like MP2000 said, you completely missed the point of the posts and went off on a rather moot point). They are saying that, regardless of the fact that he killed people, because he sacrificed himself at the end of the series to help people and bring peace, he is a hero.

    For me, I would put Lelouch under the classification of anti-hero. The actions of the characters in Code Geass are not so black-and-white as to classify most of them as being "heroes" or "villains".
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 08-30-2009 at 03:45 PM.
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  21. #21
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    I understand what you were trying to say, but you are not organizing your thoughts very well. We all know that killing someone does not automatically make one a war hero and that one can be a war hero for sacrificing their lives for their comrades (you would think that I, of all people, would already know this). However, bare in mind that, while those soldiers are not being recognized for killing people, that does not mean that they certainly did not kill anyone (doing so, like you have done, would be a logical fallacy). Sure, a soldier can receive high honors for sacrificing their lives to protect their comrades but that does not mean that they did not, at any point in time, kill someone (because they easily might have).
    Here is a copy of part of my post # 15:



    Davis certainly did not receive any positive recognition for killing his commanding officer (I seriously doubt that ANY soldier would). However, your logic is flawed because Davis was never convicted for this serious crime and went on to serve in many wars and battles AFTER killing Nelson and received the rank of Brevet Major General (while not a full Major General, the rank of Major General was the highest rank that a man could receive at the time, quite a high rank for someone who killed their commanding officer) and went on to become a war hero, despite the fact he killed Nelson over a slap in the face and a few insults.

    You are effectively making a moot point since Davis, regardless of his previous actions, still became quite the war hero.

    When it comes to Lelouch, again, no is (or was) saying that his killing of people made him a war hero (like MP2000 said, you completely missed the point of the posts and went off on a rather moot point). They are saying that, regardless of the fact that he killed people, because he sacrificed himself at the end of the series to help people and bring peace, he is a hero.

    For me, I would put Lelouch under the classification of anti-hero. The actions of the characters in Code Geass are not so black-and-white as to classify most of them as being "heroes" or "villains".[/quote]
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-31-2009 at 04:55 PM.

  22. #22
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    I understand what you were trying to say, but you are not organizing your thoughts very well. We all know that killing someone does not automatically make one a war hero and that one can be a war hero for sacrificing their lives for their comrades (you would think that I, of all people, would already know this). However, bare in mind that, while those soldiers are not being recognized for killing people, that does not mean that they certainly did not kill anyone (doing so, like you have done, would be a logical fallacy). Sure, a soldier can receive high honors for sacrificing their lives to protect their comrades but that does not mean that they did not, at any point in time, kill someone (because they easily might have).
    I am not sure that one of us, +Namiko+, knows that killing someone does not automatically make someone a war hero. See the first part of her post # 6, quoted below.

    Here is part of my post # 15:

    "Technically it is not correct that all war heroes kill people. For example, many present day medals of honor are awarded posthumously for sacrificing one's own life to save the lives of one's comrades. The classic example is leaping on a hand grenade and smothering and adsorbing the explosion and the deadly fragments with your own body to save the lives of others.

    Some of the soldiers who did that type of thing may have killed people previously, but that is not what they were honored for. And some of them did not kill anyone in their military careers."

    As you see from this quote I wrote that some of the war heroes honored for sacrificing their lives to save other soldiers killed people (presumably mostly enemy soldiers) previously and some did not, and I did not speculate on what the relative proportions might be.

    Therefore I did not make the logically fallacy of claiming that all of those heroes who sacrificed their lives to save others had never killed an enemy before.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Davis certainly did not receive any positive recognition for killing his commanding officer (I seriously doubt that ANY soldier would). However, your logic is flawed because Davis was never convicted for this serious crime and went on to serve in many wars and battles AFTER killing Nelson and received the rank of Brevet Major General (while not a full Major General, the rank of Major General was the highest rank that a man could receive at the time, quite a high rank for someone who killed their commanding officer) and went on to become a war hero, despite the fact he killed Nelson over a slap in the face and a few insults.
    My logic is not flawed because murdering General Nelson made Davis an evil murderer and dimmed the luster of his reputation as a war hero which he earned before and since. And it is something which nobody would consider heroic.

    No matter how heroic Davis was. and was perceived to be, before and after killing Nelson, he was never promoted to major general of US volunteers despite commanding a division as early as late 1861 and the XIV corps in 1864 to 1865. A few minutes of research showed that Davis was appointed a brevet major general of US Volunteers on August 8, 1864, which of course is several months after Grant was appointed to the next higher rank of Lieutenant general (full, not brevet, and US Army, not US Volunteers) in the spring of 1864 -- March 2, to be precise. So no major general, even a "full" one in the US Army, had the highest rank possible at the time when Davis was appointed brevet major general of US Volunteers. Davis did not achieve the highest rank possible at the time, even in brevet form.

    So Davis was a war hero in fact and in the perception of others, but killing General Nelson made him an evil murderer in fact and lessened his heroism in the eyes of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    You are effectively making a moot point since Davis, regardless of his previous actions, still became quite the war hero.
    But killing Nelson made him a common murderer in fact, and lessened his reputation as a war hero, and was definitely not something an ambitious or honorable young officer should have emulated.

    +Namiko= should know that many high ranking generals honored as war heroes are not known to have ever killed anyone personally, no matter how many thousands or millions of people their command decisions killed and/or saved, but are considered heroes because of their leadership in winning battles, campaigns, and wars.

    And even war leaders who personally killed enemies in battle may be considered heroes mainly because of their tactics, strategy, and leadership. For example, General George Crook, who was the lieutenant colonel and default commander of the 23rd US Infantry for seven years while its Colonel, Jefferson C Davis, was exiled in Alaska, was not considered a great hero of the Indian wars because he personally shot and killed or wounded at least six Pitt River Indians, one Paiute, one Apache, and one Cheyenne, but because the troops under his command, killed, wounded, captured, accepted the surrender of, and generally defeated, much more Indians than any other general's forces.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    When it comes to Lelouch, again, no is (or was) saying that his killing of people made him a war hero (like MP2000 said, you completely missed the point of the posts and went off on a rather moot point). They are saying that, regardless of the fact that he killed people, because he sacrificed himself at the end of the series to help people and bring peace, he is a hero.
    +Namiko+ came very close to saying that killing people made Lelouch a war hero. Part of her post # 6 says: "Yes, he killed people, but dont all War Heroes? Thats what makes them War Heroes." Thus she seems to say that killing people is necessary, and perhaps she even means sufficient, to make someone involved in a war a war hero.

    So MP2000 was incorrect when he he said that I missed the point and wrote: "Killing people isn't sufficient, but the person you quoted never said that all soldiers that kill people are war heroes, only that it's a prerequisite. You can disagree if you want but killing strongly correlates with the status of war hero for obvious reasons."

    But wolfgirl90 and I both agree that some war heroes (percentage uncertain) were not honored as heroes for killing people, and some of those (percentage again uncertain) did not kill anyone during their entire military careers. Thus killing people is not a prerequisite for being a war hero, since an unknown percentage of war heroes were honored for courageous deeds which did not involve killing people.

    Well I suppose that someone could find out how strongly being a war hero in a specific army and era correlated with killing people by classifying the citations in awards of decorations for valor to find how what percentage of the citations show that the hero was honored by deeds which involved killing people, which percent were honored for deeds which clearly did not involve killing people, and which percent were uncertain.

    People may be saying that Lelouch was a hero because of his good and noble sacrifice regardless of the people he killed. I say that they can disregard the people Lelouch killed using more or less "clean" or "honorable" methods of warfare, but they can't disregard the people he wrongly and needlessly killed, the people he murdered. I say that Lelouch's good and noble sacrifice would have made him a hero if he had never killed even one person in a terribly and obviously unjust way, such as, for example, murdering Euphemia and ordering the geass directorate massacre.


    quote=wolfgirl90;2322246]For me, I would put Lelouch under the classification of anti-hero. The actions of the characters in Code Geass are not so black-and-white as to classify most of them as being "heroes" or "villains".[/quote]

    As far as I can tell almost all the characters in Code Geass committed at least one evil deed or condoned the evil deeds of other people on their side. That makes almost all of them evil to me. Which makes almost all of the characters villains to me, even if some of them did at least one heroic deed that would make them a hero if they were not evil as a result of committing or condoning at least one evil deed.

    Lelouhc is way too anti- and not enough hero for me to call him a hero. To me a hero has to be good enough to never commit even one evil crime. I guess I could call Lelouch both a villain because of his crimes which he can never become innocent of in a million years and an sometimes hero because of his occassional acts of heroism.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-30-2009 at 11:37 PM.

  23. #23
    Perverted Kitty of Doom lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx's Avatar
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    do you guys have to battle like this everywhere? i mean whenever theres a thread about Lelouch or Euphemia you guys go nuts. i understand you both have a different view on this but you dont need to make so many posts about it everywhere.

    i liked code geass but ever since this fighting , im starting to dislike it.
    im sorry if im being mean ,but its really frustrating... >.<
    Last edited by lilminx; 08-30-2009 at 09:25 PM.
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    i think he as both to be honest. Because there were points he did good thing other time bad things its really 50/50 with him
    "Groovy"

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    OKAAAAAAAAY, proEuphie, I got it (geez, this time I wasn't even arguing with you).

    While I have not read everything that you have said in that long post of yours, I never even said that you were completely wrong; just that you used a bad example and that some parts of your argument are flawed. I understood your point from the beginning.

    Getting FULLY back on topic (meaning that if you bring up anything else not related to Code Geass, I will ignore it completely), while it is true that a lot of the characters committed evil acts, whether or not those characters themselves are evil is up to debate. Lelouch did a lot of evils things, no doubt about it, but does that make him evil, considering the meaning behind the actions that he took? Because of this I find it hard to classify him as a hero because of his actions but find it equally hard to call him a villain because of the meaning behind those actions.
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