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Thread: *SPOILERS* Did Euphie Escape...

  1. #151
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    The problem with your "points" is that they are all pure speculation. Those actions NEVER occurred and thus, cannot be accounted for and answered and, like I told you before, just because a question cannot answered does not mean that it is a question that proves your point (the best things those questions are are plot holes, but again, they do not prove ANYTHING; take it up with the writers if it bothers you so much).

    Again, Code Geass is a cartoon, a show that runs on a script and a very limited universe. It does not involve real actions or real people. Because of this, any action that DOES NOT occur in the series itself can not be used as proof of anything. Why didn't Euphemia kill Suzaku in the sickbay? Because it was NOT IN THE SCRIPT! End of story. That is the ONLY reason why this did not occur (short of it making absolutely no sense whatsoever). It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Geass (which you can't really argue about anyway, since you are missing more than half a series worth of information about the Geass). Unless you give me evidence of actions that ACTUALLY occurred in the series, rather than speculation of events that never even occurred, then your argument is moot. And again, the burden of proof lies on you, not me. It is YOUR job to show me evidence of Euphemia breaking the Geass; its NOT my job to break through your nonsense.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Hehe...proEuphie, once again, if you are going to talk about me, talk DIRECTLY to me. Otherwise, you are going to bring up something about me that you know little about (and you barely know me to begin with).

    While insubordination carries a very severe punishment in the military, we are not allowed to take part in civilian massacres, even if the massacre was ordered by our commanding officer. That goes against our Code of Conduct, my personal moral code, and effectively violates any other international law you can think of (its called a war crime for a reason, genius). If we believe that an order goes against any Code or law, we are allowed to not follow that order (though we will have to explain ourselves).

    Euphemia was not merely a "potential" danger to others: she was ALREADY a danger to others, since she just killed a large number of people and was still in the process of killing said people. As it stands now, yes, I am certainly a lesser danger than a blood-thirsty girl shooting off bullets in every other direction. And IF I was in the same position, while I would certainly like someone to save my life, if there was no other way, I would rather be shot than continue to take the lives of others.

    Also, I will give you the opportunity to edit a certain part of your post before taking action against you. I am more than certain that suggesting my DEATH on the imaginary grounds that I could commit an unjustified homicide because of my weapons training (Really? Come on, now...), and suggesting it more than once, can get your little butt banned from this site.
    Okay. I have edited the passage from my post # 135 that you quote above. I hope you like it better. I think that it expresses my meaning better, so I suppose that I should thank you. Thank you.

    I assure you I have no interest in anything as trivial as deliberately insulting people. I tell you that I have not yet begun to insult and have no intention of starting. But it takes me enough time just to correct my typos, I don't have any time left over to imagine if someone who cares about insults would feel insulted by what I write.

    If you want you can go into all the posts in which that passage has been quoted and replace it with the new passage. Since it has mostly been reproduced by people arguing against me I see no reason to do it myself.

    Okay, I just rewote that section in post # 144 because that ws one of my posts.

    One of the posts in which it has been quoted is # 144. it is followed by a quote box of xRiikox's comments and then by my reply to his comments. In it I use the case of a hypothetical person A deciding to kill person B and say that it is obviously wrong for person A to kill person C. I also say that it would be even more wrong to kill a random free person, such are yourself, because of the real but slight possibility that you might someday kill somebody, a possibility that is even slighter than the possibility that person C might someday kill a countryman of person A.

    And then I go on to say that it would be even more wrong to kill a homicidal manic like Euphemia instead of confining them if the decision was based on the possibility that they might kill someone in the future, since a confined person has even less chance of killing someone than a free person such as yourself does and thus it is even less right to kill someone instead of confining them than it would be to kill a free person such as yourself.

    Thus I set up an hierarchy in which it is obviously wrong for person A to kill person C based on the slight chance that person C might kill some countryman of person A, compared to the even wronger case of killing a free person such as yourself based on the even slighter chance that you might kill someone and wrongest still to kill someone like Euphemia instead of confining them based on the even slighter still chance that if confined she might kill someone.

    You may think that it is entirely impossible for you to ever commit a murder instead of, very, very unlikely, maybe one chance in a million or whatever, but many people believe that everyone has a slight chance of committing murder, no matter how tiny that its.

    And I did not suggest that you should be killed because of the chance that you might commit murder, merely that it is obvious to an impartial observer that any free person, such as you or me, has a greater chance of someday committing a murder than a person who is confined.

    If you acknowledge that you will have to admit that it makes more sense to kill any random free person, such as your or me, than to kill someone instead of confining them, for fear they might escape and kill somebody.

    Therefore since you and I both believe that it would be wrong to kill us for fear that we might kill someone someday, we must logically also believe that it is ever more wrong to kill Euphemia, instead of confining her, based on fear she might escape and kill someone some day.

    I hope that makes my point without insulting you.

    And when I spoke about the potential danger of a confined Euphemia ever killing someone being less than the potential danger that a free person might kill some one, I was speaking about the potential danger in the future if she was captured and confined. I was not suggesting that the geass command had not used her body to kill people before Lelouch faced her and had his last chance to change his mind.

    For example, Charles Manson killed people before he was arrested. And he has been locked up for almost forty years. During that time millions of innocent children who each seemed millions of times less dangerous than him have grown up and committed murders, while he has not managed to kill anyone. Clearly the potential danger represented by a Charles Mansion in confinement is much less than the potential danger represented by any free and innocent child who might grow up to be a killer.
    /quote]
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-27-2009 at 11:52 PM.

  2. #152
    Would You Kindly
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    1) Life isn't fair. So people should try to be fair to compensate for it. And a lot of people are not fair, so the rest should try to be even fairer to compensate. And we should make heroes out of people who try to be fair, not those who do things which are obviously unfair.

    And yes I know that bad things happen to good people. I read a lot of history. I have a joke that the reason that I am interested in history is because I like horror stories. But I have never read anything in history which convinces me that good people can do bad things to good people. I say that doing bad things to good people always makes someone a bad person. No matter how many examples of historic characters that you think are good despite their doing bad things to good people you may throw at me, I will always claim that they were evil despite your opinion that they were good.

    I am quite prepared to say that everyone of the one hundred thousand most famous people in history was evil, except for some of the ones who were children, if you want to try to convince me that the most revered heroes in history did bad things to good people but were not evil.

    2) And how can killing Euphemia add to the drama? The only way it would add to the drama would be if the main plot of the second season turned out to be Suzaku's quest to get justice or revenge on Lelouch, with the grand climax of the series being the final bloody confrontation between Suzaku and Lelouch. But instead Euphemia's death was just another sensational plot twist which the characters who seemed most motivated to avenge would conveniently ignore whenever the requirements of the plot made it necessary. And thus it was a meaningless bit of unnecessary violence.

    3) I refer to you as my opponents because I thought that the general trend of this thread is a debate between the supporters of two different opinions.

    4) And what to you mean that Lelouch suffered a lot during the series? What about Suzaku?

    He certainly suffered a lot more from the death of Euphemia than Lelouch did. For the whole year between the first and second seasons Lelouch did not remember anything from his past life and thus did not feel any guilt, remorse, or regret, for killing Euphemia. He even believed the official Brittannian story that she had ordered the massacre and been executed by the imperial government. If he ever thought about her it was as a notorious criminal who got what she deserved.

    While Suzaku, depending on how much he loved Euphemia, would not have let a day, or maybe an hour, go by without thinking of her with sorrow. I wonder how many times during that year he cursed himself for obediently bringing Lelouch back alive, instead of torturing hm to death in bloody vengeance.

    Suzaku turned out to be so great a failure at the whole "get bloody vengeance on those who kill your loved ones" thing that eventually he had to become a henchman of his enemy, helping him in his plans in return for the promise of being able to kill him when he wanted to be killed. People who want revenge on their enemies all agree its no fun to kill them when they want you to do it.

    And I think that Nunnally suffered more than Lelouch from their separation for a year between the first and second seasons, since Lelouch could not even remember that he had a sister Nunnally.

    And for the year between the first and second seasons, which probably lasted much longer than both seasons combined, Lelouch was punished for rebellion, treason, and murder by living the life of a wealthy, popular, high school student. What a fiendish punishment! What cruelty! How barbaric!

    5) Lelouch pointed a gun at Euphemia's torso, packed with vital organs, and pulled the trigger. Since he could have captured her alive with no danger to himself, and she could have be confined with less chance of ever killing someone than you or I have, I kind of get the impression that for some unknown reason he wanted to kill Euphemia.

    You say that Lelouch had his reasons for killing Euphemia. It seems obvious to me that he could have captured her alive such as safely, just as fast, and just as easy as he killed her. And capturing her and confining her would have ended her danger to others just as well as killing her. So how could there be any imaginable good reasons for killing her?

    Perhaps the reason why Lelouch cried about killing Euphemia was that he realized that he had given into his evil impulses and deliberately killed an innocent person when he had no need to.

    6) Lelouch's defenders make a lot about his grief and regret about killing Euphie. Almost every human being, good or evil, feels at least a little bit of grief, sorrow, regret, and guilt over killing another person, no matter how justified they think that killing was.

    In Oliver Twist Bill Sykes intentionally murdered Nancy. But even though he wanted to kill her, when she was dead he was filled with grief and sorrow over what he had done. He walked all through the night, not noticing where he went, just feeling his guilt and sorrow. He walked from London Bridge to Hatfield, eighteen miles in a straight line and more as he wandered, and back to central London in a daze caused by his regret and guilt.

    And many real murderers have felt just as much guilt and sorrow and vain regret as Bill Sykes, and not been any less guilty for it.

    In some of my posts I have mentioned that my grandfather once cried with guilt over shooting a pheasant. He displayed almost as much grief over killing a bird as Lelouch did over killing Euphemia. And my grandfather was not just a peaceful, kind, sensitive civilian, but also a war hero, killing and capturing several enemy soldiers at the age of eighteen. No doubt some of the relatives of those he killed and captured would have thought that he was way too bold, aggressive, and brutal, and not nearly kind, gentle, and sensitive enough for them.

    I say that the grief that my grandfather showed for killing a bird was much closer to being appropiate and normal than the grief that Lelouch showed for killing Euphemia.

    7) You say that Lelouch sacrificed himself to avenge Euphemia. In other posts you say that he sacrificed himself to save the world. It seems to me that unless his reason for having himself be killed was at least 75 percent guilt over Euphemia and no more than 25 percent an effort to save the world, it would not be right to say flatly that he sacrificed himself to avenge Euphemia, because saving the world would seem to have the highest possible priority in most people's minds.

    Suppose that Lelouch did sacrifice himself mainly to avenge Euphemia. But a man who murders someone and eventually commits suicide to atone for it is less good than his other self in an alternate universe where he is tempted to commit that murder but decides not to, and lets the intended victim live.

    8) Lelouch was not Hitler? Is that how you defend him?

    Well, Genghis Khan was not Hitler, but that doesn't make him good. Some people say that he and his followers must have been even more evil than Hitler and the Nazis, to murder at least as many people face to face instead of sending them off to the death camps to be killed out of sight. And Stalin was not Hitler or Genghis khan, but some people believe that he was more evil than either of them.

    Tamerlane was not Hitler, or Stalin, or Genghis Khan, but some people have called him the most evil leader in History.

    So I could grant you that Lelouch was no Hitler, no Stalin, no Tamerlane, no Genghis Khan, but what would that prove? That he was not as bad as the top ten most evil people in history? That would still make it possible that he was as bad as one of the the top one hundred most evil people in history, or one of the thousand most evil people in history, or one of the ten thousand most evil people in history, etc.

    If you claim, and prove, that Lelouch was not as evil as Hitler, you still have a long, long, long, long, long way to go to prove that he was so very, very, very, very, very much better than Hitler than he was a good person and not an evil person.

    9) You say that: "Lelouch is. portrayed brilliantly as one of the best tactical minds in history, but if you think you know better than him, then have fun in your fantasy world"

    Lelouch is not portrayed brilliantly as one of the great tactical minds in history. The writers and producers of the series would have to brilliant tacticians themselves to consistently imagine brilliant tactics for him (and thus they would be in the wrong occupation). Some of the tactics they imagined for Lelouch make him seem a lot more brilliant than others do.

    And even the most famous and respected generals in history have had their tactics questioned by historians who claim that alternate strategies would have been better. If you believe all the criticisms made of even the greatest general in history he would seem pretty dumb. And if only about, for example, ten percent of the criticisms are justified that would still mean that even the greatest generals in history often make mistakes. If any of our, no doubt few, readers ever go into battle, they should remember that even the most brilliant generals such as they hope their generals will be, sometimes make stupid mistakes.

    I say that not killing people that you personally know are wonderfully innocent unless you absolutely, positively have to do so to save other innocent lives is a pretty obvious rule. Lelouch clearly could have captured Euphemia alive just as fast, just as easy, and just a safely as he killed her. And capturing and confining Euphemia would be just as safe for the Japanese as killing her, and a lot better for her. So I can't see any imaginable good reason for killing her.

    And I can't imagine that any general could be so brilliant as to see a good reason for killing Euphemia that escapes me. That would be like imagining that someone would be so smart he could prove that red is blue, for example.

    And even if Lelouch had consistently been just as brilliant a tactician in twenty seasons or two hundred seasons as he was in two, his reputation as a great general would not be strong enough to make me say that he must have had a good reason that I am too dumb to recognize. Not when killing Euphemia is so obviously senseless.

    You say that Lelouch sacrificed himself to avenge Euphemia's death. If so, he made a big mistake killing her for no good reason, since that murder eventually caused his own death which he could have avoided by not murdering her.

    I quote.

    "1) Life isn't fair. So people should try to be fair to compensate for it. And a lot of people are not fair, so the rest should try to be even fairer to compensate. And we should make heroes out of people who try to be fair, not those who do things which are obviously unfair. I am quite prepared to say that everyone of the one hundred thousand most famous people in history was evil, except for some of the ones who were children, if you want to try to convince me that the most revered heroes in history did bad things to good people but were not evil."


    It is a fact. Life isn't fair. Why should everyone try to make up for the sins committed by others, when we ALL have oir own burdens to deal with? Why don't YOU do that...and try to compensate the murders, crimes that go on in the world? I'd like to see you try. Yes, in the REAL WORLD we DO actually make heroes of kind, good people. Hitler wasn't made a hero after being a mass murderer, was he? And you are completely missing the POINT here. Let me spell it out for you.

    CODE GEASS IS AN ANIME.

    THE POINT OF ANIME, OR WATCHING ANIME, IS TO BE ENGAGED IN A FATASY WORLD THAT DOES NOT PARALLEL REAL LIFE IN MOST WAYS. THEREFORE, THINGS THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN IN THE REAL WORLD, HAPPEN IN ANIMES LIKE CODE GEASS, THEREFORE THE TERM: [MECHA AND APOCALYPTIC MANGA].

    AND BESIDES, LELOUCH IS AN ANTI-HERO. ALSO POSSIBLY A BYRONIC HERO. HE IS, ALSO, THE MAIN CHARACTER OF THE ENTIRE STORYLINE.

    IT IS EXCEEDINGLY STUPID TO GET SO OBSESSED WITH AN ANIME, UNHEALTHY, TOO.

    I will not go into your history rants again. Just letting you know that most of the heroes in history are GOOD. They don't have to have an enormous amount of military power, or otherwise. A few examples for you: Mother Teresa, Gandhi. All these people. They may not be your idea of heroes, but the simple fact is, they are.

    As for the rest of it, I give up for the moment. Go debate with yourself.





    ---
    MEMENTO MORI,
    IF THE NINETH LION ATE THE SUN.



  3. #153
    Senior Member Heinekenrana has a reputation beyond repute Heinekenrana has a reputation beyond repute Heinekenrana has a reputation beyond repute Heinekenrana has a reputation beyond repute Heinekenrana has a reputation beyond repute Heinekenrana has a reputation beyond repute Heinekenrana has a reputation beyond repute Heinekenrana has a reputation beyond repute Heinekenrana has a reputation beyond repute Heinekenrana has a reputation beyond repute Heinekenrana has a reputation beyond repute Heinekenrana's Avatar
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    This has nothing to do with Code Geass, but rather with a point proEuphie tried to make - you do realize, proEuphie, that Manson actually did not kill anyone, but orchestrated the murders his willing "Family" committed, and that he's still locked away (and most likely will be forever) because he was able to get seemingly normal people to do these terrible things for him? I don't think anyone really considers him a murderer or a danger now - save the fact that something about him compels people to do as he wishes. That might not be the best comparison to make here, if you're going that route.

    Sorry to interrupt your topic, though.

  4. #154
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinekenrana View Post
    This has nothing to do with Code Geass, but rather with a point proEuphie tried to make - you do realize, proEuphie, that Manson actually did not kill anyone, but orchestrated the murders his willing "Family" committed, and that he's still locked away (and most likely will be forever) because he was able to get seemingly normal people to do these terrible things for him? I don't think anyone really considers him a murderer or a danger now - save the fact that something about him compels people to do as he wishes. That might not be the best comparison to make here, if you're going that route.

    Sorry to interrupt your topic, though.
    Saying that Charles Mansion never killed anyone is like saying that any of the great heroes and villains of military history never killed anyone.

    It is like saying that George Washington or King George III, Napoleon or the Duke of Wellington, Abraham Lincoln or Jefferson Davis, Grant or Lee, Hitler, Stalin, Hirohito, Mussolini, Churchill, Roosevelt, Rommel or Eisenhauer, etc., etc. never killed anyone personally. That statement may be true or false for some of them, and for others unverifiable.

    But it is kind of misleading since they each inspired many people to fight and die and kill many other people.

    I think that a criminal mastermind who plans and orders murders will be considered a murderer by most people most of the time.

    Anyway, Euphemia may have shot and killed a number of people while controlled by the geass, but there were tens, or hundreds, or thousands of Britannian soldiers at the Fuji Massacre who obeyed her orders to kill.
    Some of the individual soldiers may have killed more people than Euphemia killed personally, but combined the soldiers killed tens, or hundreds, or thousands of times as many people as Euphemia killed personally.

    So in that respect Charles mansion may have been a good comparison to Euphemia, although I selected him because of the long time he has been locked up while new generations of murderers grew up and killed outside his prison cell.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-28-2009 at 08:36 PM.

  5. #155
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    I quote.

    "1) Life isn't fair. So people should try to be fair to compensate for it. And a lot of people are not fair, so the rest should try to be even fairer to compensate. And we should make heroes out of people who try to be fair, not those who do things which are obviously unfair. I am quite prepared to say that everyone of the one hundred thousand most famous people in history was evil, except for some of the ones who were children, if you want to try to convince me that the most revered heroes in history did bad things to good people but were not evil."


    It is a fact. Life isn't fair. Why should everyone try to make up for the sins committed by others, when we ALL have oir own burdens to deal with? Why don't YOU do that...and try to compensate the murders, crimes that go on in the world? I'd like to see you try. Yes, in the REAL WORLD we DO actually make heroes of kind, good people. Hitler wasn't made a hero after being a mass murderer, was he? And you are completely missing the POINT here. Let me spell it out for you.

    CODE GEASS IS AN ANIME.

    THE POINT OF ANIME, OR WATCHING ANIME, IS TO BE ENGAGED IN A FATASY WORLD THAT DOES NOT PARALLEL REAL LIFE IN MOST WAYS. THEREFORE, THINGS THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN IN THE REAL WORLD, HAPPEN IN ANIMES LIKE CODE GEASS, THEREFORE THE TERM: [MECHA AND APOCALYPTIC MANGA].

    AND BESIDES, LELOUCH IS AN ANTI-HERO. ALSO POSSIBLY A BYRONIC HERO. HE IS, ALSO, THE MAIN CHARACTER OF THE ENTIRE STORYLINE.

    IT IS EXCEEDINGLY STUPID TO GET SO OBSESSED WITH AN ANIME, UNHEALTHY, TOO.

    I will not go into your history rants again. Just letting you know that most of the heroes in history are GOOD. They don't have to have an enormous amount of military power, or otherwise. A few examples for you: Mother Teresa, Gandhi. All these people. They may not be your idea of heroes, but the simple fact is, they are.

    As for the rest of it, I give up for the moment. Go debate with yourself.





    Yes, code geass is an anime. But if no anime is worth discussing and debating the issues about, is any anime worth watching?

    Code Geass may be a fantasy world but it has a lot things in it which happen in real life. Wars, rebellions, invasions, betrayals, massacres, murders, plotting, etc. etc. etc. I never suggested that it was evil to set a fictional story in an alternate universe, or that it was wrong to depict giant robots used as war machines, or it was shocking to depict geass. I do think that it is disturbing to have the protagonist of a series commit an obviously unnecessary murder and then order a massacre and have the audience still identify with him.

    Why couldn't the audience identify with the good leaders and followers in the cast? Oops, there are no good leaders or followers left in the cast in the second season. Lelouch murdered Euphemia which turned Suzaku bitter and evil, thus eliminating both of the leaders and followers who were good people worth caring about.

    I say that what is wrong in real life is wrong in an anime. Being an anti-hero or a Byronic hero does not excuse murdering someone when there is no need to, and it does not excuse ordering a massacre while not controlled by outside forces against your will. Doing either thing even once makes someone a villain to me. So to me Lelouch is a Byronic villain, not a Byronic hero

    Do you expect me to excuse or accept murder committed by the main character of a story just because he is the main character of the story? You may have noticed how many different ways historic events are portrayed in different works of fiction so that the protagonists and/or heroes in one version are the antagonists and/or villains in other versions?

    For example, in the movies General Custer is portrayed is the most heroic light in They died With Their Boots On, and in the most villainous way in Sitting Bull. The main Sioux leader at the Little Big Horn is obviously Sitting Bull in the movie Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse in the movie Chief Crazy Horse, while Gall is depicted as being very important in the movie Yellowstone Kelly, and the Cheyenne chief Dull Knife is the main leader in the movie Custer of the West.

    Captain Benteen and/or Major Reno have been depicted in as brave soldiers abandoned by their ambitious commander in some works of fiction and nonfiction and as cowards and/or villains who refused to go to his aid in other works of fiction and nonfiction.

    And an author can choose which of his characters is the main one and determine how good or evil the main character is. Unless the plot requires that every character is evil, there is no reason fro the main character to be one of the evil characters. There is no reason to excuse Euphemia's murder or the geass directorate massacre because they were committed by the main character. In fact, being committed by the main character makes them even less excusable.

    I would be a lot more upset and angered if a protagonist like Inuyasha massacred an entire human village than if an antagonist and villain like Naraku did it, for example.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-30-2009 at 11:50 PM.

  6. #156
    Senior Member +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+'s Avatar
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    Woops my bad. proObsessed is a god and knows everything. Lets leave her to her happy little Geass life where she obvioulsy will spiral into depression when her next favorite anime character dies.
    *shoots thread*
    *burns the peices*
    *sprinkes ashes on Euphie's grave*

    There, now she can rest in peace knowing you made a mockery of her death*


    Fatal Frame II




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  7. #157
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    Woops my bad. proObsessed is a god and knows everything. Lets leave her to her happy little Geass life where she obvioulsy will spiral into depression when her next favorite anime character dies.
    *shoots thread*
    *burns the peices*
    *sprinkes ashes on Euphie's grave*

    There, now she can rest in peace knowing you made a mockery of her death*
    No, all of you Code Geass fans who continue to care about Lelouch, identify with Lelouch, and support Lelouch, after he murdered her for no apparent reason, have made a mockery of her death.

    What is the point in depicting Character A treacherously murdering character B -- who loves and trusts him and does not suspect he has hostile intentions, and who if captured and confined will be less dangerous to anyone than any random free person would be -- except to make the audience hate Character A?
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-29-2009 at 06:12 PM.

  8. #158
    Would You Kindly
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    Woops my bad. proObsessed is a god and knows everything. Lets leave her to her happy little Geass life where she obvioulsy will spiral into depression when her next favorite anime character dies.
    *shoots thread*
    *burns the peices*
    *sprinkes ashes on Euphie's grave*

    There, now she can rest in peace knowing you made a mockery of her death*

    Yes, let's.
    We'll wait for Lelouch to kill her. Hopefully, blow her up with the Guren.
    Well, we'll leave off here, then. I don't intend to continue any more.

    *note to ProEuphie*: you can't expect people to be nice to you when you refuse to accept other's viewpoints, you know. It's like you've been living in this fantasy world of yours ever since you were born, that you don't know social norms, or the basic thing: Courtesy. Hope you'll remember this. Goodbye.
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    IF THE NINETH LION ATE THE SUN.



  9. #159
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Well, proEuphie, just like I do not need to be called a "sinner" during a debate about a cartoon character, as I get enough of that because of my religion, I do not need hypothetical suggestions of my death during a debate about a cartoon character, since, as you can imagine, military life is stressful enough.

    Like I said before, I do not think a person should be killed because of their potential to kill someone; as you have already pointed out, because of my training, I do have the potential to kill a person (a fact that I am already well aware without you pointing it out to me and everyone else). However, again, Euphemia was not merely a person who had the potential to kill someone: she had ALREADY killed someone. In fact, she was killing LOTS of people and the ONLY time that she stopped was when Lelouch was talking to her (which was only a few seconds before her death). There is a big difference in killing me because of my potential to kill someone and killing Euphemia because she had already killed someone and was currently in the process of killing other people (other than the fact that comparing my real life to that of a cartoon character is rather stupid).

    With my training, given the situation, I would most likely kill Euphemia, not wait for the chance that she might hopefully stop. Yes, non-lethal methods would be considered, but so long as Euphemia was firing bullets in every other direction...needless to say, I am not walking towards her to use words or my arms to stop her when my gun can do the same thing (its me or her).

    HOWEVER, that is MY opinion (and mine alone; not to be used in some straw man argument about how bad a person I must be because I would hypothetically kill a fictional character). Bare in mind that Lelouch DID NOT shoot Euphemia so that she would stop shooting the Japanese NOR did he shoot her to end her suffering. He shot her because it was the best way to turn the situation to his side and gain the best results in doing so. Could he have captured her? Maybe (of course, I have already given the various disadvantages to capturing Euphemia versus killing her many times to you before). Did he? No. Effectively, there is no reason in discussing what Lelouch COULD HAVE done, as it doesn't matter (it doesn't move the debate and it doesn't prove your point).

    Also, since we are talking about a cartoon, which is scripted and therefore has a VERY limited universe, we can only analyze the things that have been presented to us. Like I said before, if an action did not take place, that does not mean that that non-action is proof of anything. For example, Euphemia not running off to kill Japanese when she was with Lelouch does not prove that she broke the Geass (the script stated she would stay and listen to Lelouch). Euphemia not attacking Suzaku in the sickbay is not really proof that she broke the Geass, since the script specified that she would not do anything of the sort (we all know what actually happened to Euphemia in the sickbay). Sure these things can be discussed, but they can really only be introduced as possible plot holes, not as proof of anything that happened. What you are presenting is pure speculation, nothing more, so I can easily dismiss all of those "points" that you have made so far, since they prove nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    No, all of you Code Geass fans who continue to care about Lelouch, identify with Lelouch, and support Lelouch, after he murdered her for no apparent reason, have made a mockery of her death.

    What is the point in depicting Character A treacherously murdering character B -- who loves and trusts him and does not suspect he has hostile intentions, and who if captured and confined will be less dangerous to anyone than any random free person would be -- except to make the audience hate Character A?
    I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that Character A (Lelouch, so that everyone is clear) did not kill Character B (Euphemia) out of malice (and actually wholeheartedly regretted killing Character B) and the fact that Character A later sacrificed himself for the sake of all the characters and to clear up the tarnished name of Character B. Because of this, it would be rather hard (not to mention immature and naive) to hate Character A for killing Character B, considering that he didn't want to kill Character B in the first place (but had to in order to get the best results out of the mess he made) and sacrificed himself for Character B and the other characters.

    The big problem here is that, despite your claim that you want to have a debate about Euphemia's death, this thread is not a "debate". Right now, you are apparently the only person who is right since you are pretty much ignoring the facts and opinions of others. Honestly, while I am not trying to change your opinions about Euphemia (believe me, there would be no point in even trying), I have shown you lots of (very solid) proof about the Geass and about the series itself when it comes to Euphemia (which you can barely contest since you have not watched the entire series, and are thus at an automatic disadvantage when discussing ANYTHING about the series) and how she couldn't have possibly broken the Geass at ANY point in time, while you have only given me speculation in return as "proof" of your point (which does not work here, I'm afraid).

    There is difference in starting a valid argument, someone proving that you are wrong, and politely coinciding to the point, versus starting an argument, someone proving that you are wrong, some other person proving that you are wrong, more people proving that you are wrong and not only do you NOT coincide to the point(s), you ignore ALL of the points and simply announce yourself as being right (or announce that the others must be wrong) based on nonsense.

    Like I said before, it really seems that unless one admits that Euphemia broke the Geass, says that she is the best character in the series, says that they felt sad about her death (or says that her death was an extremely bad thing) or basically doesn't coincide to ANY point that you make (regardless of whether or not you are actually right), they are the ones who are wrong (and you are right), no matter what evidence they have to the contrary. Not to mention the fact you often commit the Straw Man fallacy when saying that these people are wrong.

    I mean, ever since I first posted my points against yours, you have called me out (four times, each time saying that I am wrong but without refuting my point), have called me a sinner (twice directly, three times implied), said that I must have latent violent tendencies (due to my not caring about Euphemia's death and the fact that I am in the military), called my morals into question, suggested that, due to my weapons training, I have a higher chance of committing homicide (twice) and have even suggested that I be killed (twice), all during a conversation about the death of a CARTOON CHARACTER!!

    You can have whatever opinions about Euphemia that you want, but I really do not care about her death (at least, not anymore). I barely cared about her to begin with since Euphemia is a combination of Lacus Clyne and Relena Peacecraft (two characters I have honestly had enough of) and while I did feel a tinge of sadness over her death, I quickly got over it (about 20 seconds after it happened). Once again, as you know, I am in the military, so forgive me if I do not feel sad over the death of a CARTOON CHARACTER when I can name about two people that I have worked with and trained with who are in Iraq right now, and whose lives are a lot more important than that of a cartoon character. So its no wonder I don't feel sad about Euphemia.

    Also, like I have said many times before, while you continue to bring up Euphemia's death (and complain about it), she continues to live in other Code Geass universes such as Suzaku of the Counterattack and Tales of an Alternate Shogunate. I mean, that's like being upset over the "death" of Sherlock Holmes long after he was brought back. You can be upset over Euphemia's death all you want, but so long as she is alive in alternative universes of Code Geass, I really can't feel that bad about her death.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 08-31-2009 at 12:18 AM.
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  10. #160
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    Woops my bad. proObsessed is a god and knows everything. Lets leave her to her happy little Geass life where she obvioulsy will spiral into depression when her next favorite anime character dies.
    *shoots thread*
    *burns the peices*
    *sprinkes ashes on Euphie's grave*

    There, now she can rest in peace knowing you made a mockery of her death*
    As I wrote elsewhere, Euphemia was not my favorite anime character. I just thought of her as a very nice and good minor character in one anime series out of many until I saw the way that Lelouch killed her.

    The episode makes it very clear that Lelouch does not to have to kill her, Lelouch does not have to capture her, Lelouch does not have to let her go free to kill a few more Japanese and then get killed.

    Lelouch has the power to choose what to do with the sweet, adorable, noble, and innocent girl who is trapped in the same body as a geass command.

    Lelouch does not have to kill her by kicking her a hundred yards in the air with one of the Gawain's robot legs. He does not have to kill by shooting her with a machine gun. He does not have to kill her by her by blasting her with one of the Gawain's big cannons. He has many available ways to kill her.

    Lelouch does not have to capture her by picking her up in the hand of the Gawain. Lelouch does not have to capture her by walking up to her, pointing behind her, and hitting her on the head with the butt of his gun when she looks around. Lelouch does not have to capture her by inviting her into his nightmare and having CC do the memory sharing thing with her and making her unconscious like she did to Suzaku at Narita. Lelouch has many available ways of capturing her.

    If Euphemia was captured and confined with reasonable security she would have less chance of ever killing another Japanese person than any randomly selected free person in our world, such as you or I, would have.

    Since capturing Euphemia would be just as good as killing her for protecting innocent lives, and since capturing Euphemia would be much better for her than killing her, and since Lelouch had many available ways to capture Euphemia, killing her was obviously a totally unnecessary murder.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 09-03-2009 at 08:37 PM.

  11. #161
    Would You Kindly
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    Someone just LOCK this friggin' thread. ==" I can't believe she's quoting from previous posts. AGAIN.
    ---
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    IF THE NINETH LION ATE THE SUN.



  12. #162
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Someone just LOCK this friggin' thread. ==" I can't believe she's quoting from previous posts. AGAIN.
    I'm quoting from previous threads because someone was making inaccurate statements about what i said.

  13. #163
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Well, proEuphie, just like I do not need to be called a "sinner" during a debate about a cartoon character, as I get enough of that because of my religion, I do not need hypothetical suggestions of my death during a debate about a cartoon character, since, as you can imagine, military life is stressful enough.
    Okay, okay. Remember the context. I keep saying that if Euphemia was captured and locked up the potential future danger (despite her past actions under the control of the geass) would be too small to make it right to kill her to prevent that small potential danger of future killings. And you kept writing that the potential danger that Euphemia might kill people despite being locked up was too great and she had to be killed.

    So I pointed that that a free person, such as yourself, no matter how good, would have a much higher chance of killing someone than Euphemia (no matter how much she was controlled by the geass) would have if she was locked up with good security.

    I hoped that since you obviously believe that there is absolutely no justification for killing you to prevent the slight possibility that you might kill someone in the future you might accept that there would be even less possibility that Euphemia might kill someone in the future if properly confined and thus there would be no justification for killing her to prevent that slight chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Like I said before, I do not think a person should be killed because of their potential to kill someone; as you have already pointed out, because of my training, I do have the potential to kill a person (a fact that I am already well aware without you pointing it out to me and everyone else).
    You said that since Euphemia knew how to shoot a gun and drive a nightmare she would be dangerous if she got out and so she should be killed to prevent that slight chance. So naturally I responded that you also know how to use weapons and are a free person and therefore if you should ever get the desire to kill you would be more dangerous than Euphemia would be if confined. Naturally if you make a point I will try to reverse your chain of logic and show that your line of reasoning can demand and justify something that you are opposed to.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    However, again, Euphemia was not merely a person who had the potential to kill someone: she had ALREADY killed someone. In fact, she was killing LOTS of people and the ONLY time that she stopped was when Lelouch was talking to her (which was only a few seconds before her death). There is a big difference in killing me because of my potential to kill someone and killing Euphemia because she had already killed someone and was currently in the process of killing other people (other than the fact that comparing my real life to that of a cartoon character is rather stupid).
    Technically Euphemia stopped killing people the last time a Britannian soldier obeying her orders killed a Japanese or else the last time that she personally shot and fatally wounded a Japanese. In episode 23 we see a bunch of fleeing Japanese, then Euphemia firing a cannon at them or some other off screen target. If Euphemia did not hit anybody when she fired that cannon the last time that she killed someone was an unknown time earlier. After firing the cannon and killing or not killing someone Euphemia did not fire a weapon except to harmlessly shoot a machine gun at an armored nightmare. Euphemia died in the sickbay an unknown number of minute or hours after Lelouch shot her so she stopped killing people much longer than only a few seconds before her death.

    And I say that killing people in the past has nothing to do with calculating and comparing the potential danger which two different people might pose because of the different situations they were in. I was comparing Euphemia's potential danger of killing people in the future if she was confined with your potential danger of killing people if you are free. And even though you have no desire to murder and are not controlled by a geass command being free and able to kill if you should desire to makes your very, very slight potential danger greater than the very, very slight potential danger of a confined Euphemia.

    When you claimed that Euphemia had to be killed because she would be controlled by the geass command for the rest of my life I disagreed but but also tried to show that she would not. And when I suggested that a bunch of captured Britannian soldiers from the Fuji Massacre be used up trying to cure Euphemia you convinced me that it was technically impractical. But you also claimed that it would have been evil to kill them just to cure Euphemia (which I only suggested because you insisted she would be too dangerous to live unless cured).

    If it would be evil to kill Britannian soldiers who took part in a massacre merely because they were ordered to, and not because of a geass command, it would be even more evil to kill Euphemia for ordering that massacre due to a geass command. So there is no point in bringing up the fact that Euphemia had already killed a few people personally and had ordered her soldiers to kill many more. That could not justify killing her if it was not necessary to save lives in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    With my training, given the situation, I would most likely kill Euphemia, not wait for the chance that she might hopefully stop. Yes, non-lethal methods would be considered, but so long as Euphemia was firing bullets in every other direction...needless to say, I am not walking towards her to use words or my arms to stop her when my gun can do the same thing (its me or her).
    I don't see how you could have been trained to kill someone instead of capturing them when it is just as safe, just as easy, and just as quick to capture as to kill.

    When Euphemia's nightmare was destroyed she was unarmed (until Lelouch and co inexplicably let her pick up and keep a machine gun lying on the ground -- is that something you've been trained to do?) against two of the most powerful nightmares in the world.

    Lelouch could simply reach down with a giant robot hand and pick up Euphemia and use her as a hostage to force the remaining Britannians to stop fighting and save an unknown number of Japanese lives.

    And Lelouch did walk toward her, confident that she loved and trusted him so much she would not shoot him, If you were in Lelouch's situation, walking toward her, it would not be Euphemia or you. You would know she would never shoot you and you would have a good chance of talking her into putting down her gun and surrendering to you, her beloved brother. Which would have been the safest thing for Euphemia and the geass command's best hope to live and kill again.

    And what would be so dangerous about using your gun to shoot her in one or two arms and legs? Wouldn't that make it very unlikely that she could shoot? Wouldn't that be just as fast as shooting her in the torso?

    Euphemia was not firing in every other direction. She was seen to fire her cannon once, and thus in one direction. And she shoot her machine gun only at the Gawain and maybe the Gueren, and thus in one direction. And when she saw Zero she apologized to him for shooting harmlessly at his armored vehicle.

    And Zero knew that Euphyemia was innocent and the massacre was an accident, as much his fault as hers.

    And don't forget that Lleouch could have picked up Euphemia in perfect safety with the hand of his giant robot.

    (to be continued)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    HOWEVER, that is MY opinion (and mine alone; not to be used in some straw man argument about how bad a person I must be because I would hypothetically kill a fictional character). Bare in mind that Lelouch DID NOT shoot Euphemia so that she would stop shooting the Japanese NOR did he shoot her to end her suffering. He shot her because it was the best way to turn the situation to his side and gain the best results in doing so. Could he have captured her? Maybe (of course, I have already given the various disadvantages to capturing Euphemia versus killing her many times to you before). Did he? No. Effectively, there is no reason in discussing what Lelouch COULD HAVE done, as it doesn't matter (it doesn't move the debate and it doesn't prove your point).

    Also, since we are talking about a cartoon, which is scripted and therefore has a VERY limited universe, we can only analyze the things that have been presented to us. Like I said before, if an action did not take place, that does not mean that that non-action is proof of anything. For example, Euphemia not running off to kill Japanese when she was with Lelouch does not prove that she broke the Geass (the script stated she would stay and listen to Lelouch). Euphemia not attacking Suzaku in the sickbay is not really proof that she broke the Geass, since the script specified that she would not do anything of the sort (we all know what actually happened to Euphemia in the sickbay). Sure these things can be discussed, but they can really only be introduced as possible plot holes, not as proof of anything that happened. What you are presenting is pure speculation, nothing more, so I can easily dismiss all of those "points" that you have made so far, since they prove nothing.



    I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that Character A (Lelouch, so that everyone is clear) did not kill Character B (Euphemia) out of malice (and actually wholeheartedly regretted killing Character B) and the fact that Character A later sacrificed himself for the sake of all the characters and to clear up the tarnished name of Character B. Because of this, it would be rather hard (not to mention immature and naive) to hate Character A for killing Character B, considering that he didn't want to kill Character B in the first place (but had to in order to get the best results out of the mess he made) and sacrificed himself for Character B and the other characters.

    The big problem here is that, despite your claim that you want to have a debate about Euphemia's death, this thread is not a "debate". Right now, you are apparently the only person who is right since you are pretty much ignoring the facts and opinions of others. Honestly, while I am not trying to change your opinions about Euphemia (believe me, there would be no point in even trying), I have shown you lots of (very solid) proof about the Geass and about the series itself when it comes to Euphemia (which you can barely contest since you have not watched the entire series, and are thus at an automatic disadvantage when discussing ANYTHING about the series) and how she couldn't have possibly broken the Geass at ANY point in time, while you have only given me speculation in return as "proof" of your point (which does not work here, I'm afraid).

    There is difference in starting a valid argument, someone proving that you are wrong, and politely coinciding to the point, versus starting an argument, someone proving that you are wrong, some other person proving that you are wrong, more people proving that you are wrong and not only do you NOT coincide to the point(s), you ignore ALL of the points and simply announce yourself as being right (or announce that the others must be wrong) based on nonsense.

    Like I said before, it really seems that unless one admits that Euphemia broke the Geass, says that she is the best character in the series, says that they felt sad about her death (or says that her death was an extremely bad thing) or basically doesn't coincide to ANY point that you make (regardless of whether or not you are actually right), they are the ones who are wrong (and you are right), no matter what evidence they have to the contrary. Not to mention the fact you often commit the Straw Man fallacy when saying that these people are wrong.

    I mean, ever since I first posted my points against yours, you have called me out (four times, each time saying that I am wrong but without refuting my point), have called me a sinner (twice directly, three times implied), said that I must have latent violent tendencies (due to my not caring about Euphemia's death and the fact that I am in the military), called my morals into question, suggested that, due to my weapons training, I have a higher chance of committing homicide (twice) and have even suggested that I be killed (twice), all during a conversation about the death of a CARTOON CHARACTER!!

    You can have whatever opinions about Euphemia that you want, but I really do not care about her death (at least, not anymore). I barely cared about her to begin with since Euphemia is a combination of Lacus Clyne and Relena Peacecraft (two characters I have honestly had enough of) and while I did feel a tinge of sadness over her death, I quickly got over it (about 20 seconds after it happened). Once again, as you know, I am in the military, so forgive me if I do not feel sad over the death of a CARTOON CHARACTER when I can name about two people that I have worked with and trained with who are in Iraq right now, and whose lives are a lot more important than that of a cartoon character. So its no wonder I don't feel sad about Euphemia.

    Also, like I have said many times before, while you continue to bring up Euphemia's death (and complain about it), she continues to live in other Code Geass universes such as Suzaku of the Counterattack and Tales of an Alternate Shogunate. I mean, that's like being upset over the "death" of Sherlock Holmes long after he was brought back. You can be upset over Euphemia's death all you want, but so long as she is alive in alternative universes of Code Geass, I really can't feel that bad about her death.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 09-07-2009 at 12:18 AM.

  14. #164
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    uh......yeah I just felt like posting today and just to bump it up since everyone is so serious about this thread LOL so.......HADOUKEN!!!!!!! gtg play some street fighter 4 instead of trying to disprove of what has already been disproved so many time before or "reprove" anything LOL never though I would ever used that word.

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    Uhm yeah lots of long posts in this thread...its seems very simple to me.

    There are only 3 things that can end a geass: willpower (which Euphemia didn't have much of anyway since she killed many japs before being killed herself) Immortality (remember when Lelouch made that first attempt on his father?), and death.

    Euphemia was severely conflicted while she was obeying the Geass but did nothing to contradict it, She obeyed til' death. The answer is NO there is nothing to indicate Euphemia even stood a chance. What would make Euphie any different from all the others Lelouch used Geass on? Nunally is the only exception.

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  16. #166
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo-Eva View Post
    Uhm yeah lots of long posts in this thread...its seems very simple to me.

    There are only 3 things that can end a geass: willpower (which Euphemia didn't have much of anyway since she killed many japs before being killed herself) Immortality (remember when Lelouch made that first attempt on his father?), and death.

    Euphemia was severely conflicted while she was obeying the Geass but did nothing to contradict it, She obeyed til' death. The answer is NO there is nothing to indicate Euphemia even stood a chance. What would make Euphie any different from all the others Lelouch used Geass on? Nunally is the only exception.
    Let me remind you of the curious incident of the orders to kill Suzaku and destroy the nearest Japanese Ghetto that were not given. The fact that they were not given requires explanation.

    Gregory (Scotland Yard detective): "Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
    Holmes: "To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
    Gregory: "The dog did nothing in the night-time."
    Holmes: "That was the curious incident."


    From "Silver Blaze".

    1) Euphemia and Nunnally both resisted geass commands at first. They have at least that much in common in their relationship with geass.

    I say that Euphemia resisted her geass command a fourth way, with won't power. Not will power, an intense desire to do what she wanted but won't power, an intense resistance to doing anything she considered evil. When the geass first tried to take control of her she said that she couldn't kill.

    Nunnally may have resisted her geass command and broken her blindness geass using will power, and may have had a lot more of it than Euphemia. But Euphemia resisted her geass command using her won't power, her refusal to kill, and she had a lot more of it than Nunnally who used F.R.E.I.J.A. weapons and killed many people. It is perfectly possible that Euphemia's won't power was at last as strong as Nunnally's willpower, and enabled her to defeat her geass command after mere hours or minutes instead of the years it took Nunnally.

    2) Euphemia and Nunnally were half sisters but none of their relatives showed resistance to being geassed except for those who became geass givers, so it was not hereditary in their father's family. I suspect that their mothers were sisters or first cousins or second cousins. I think that some members of Britannian nobility had partially nonhuman ancestry, being descended from one or more species of supernatural or extraterrestrial beings. Emperor Charles may have had a really big share of that exotic ancestry and Euphemia and Nunnaly's mothers may have had really big shares of that ancestry too. By chance Euphemia and Nunnally could have inherited much more of those exotic genes than their full siblings Lelouch and Cornelia.

    3) And remember that Euphemia had the power to talk coherently while she was dying in the sickbay. The soldiers who obeyed her commands probably killed tens, or hundreds, or thousands, of times as many Japanese as she personally shot. So the geass command would think of her ability to talk and give commands as her most deadly weapon and main weapon.

    The geass command tried to regain control of her and she resisted. Then the geass command stopped trying to take control of her. The common idea that the geass command gave up because she was too weak to physically kill someone is invalidated by the fact that her main weapon was giving commands to other people and she could still talk.

    If the geass command took control of Euphemia in the sickbay, she would order Suzaku executed. Therefore the writers could not allow the geass command to regain control of Euphemia. But the geass command knew that Euphemia could still talk and give orders and thus kill more thousands of Japanese. Thus the geass command had to keep trying to take control of Euphemia until it succeeded, or Euphemia died, or it was defeated.

    Suzaku survived because the geass command did not succeed in taking control of Euphemia. And the geass command did not keep on trying to regain control of Euphemia until she died. Therefore the geass command must have been defeated by Euphemia in the sickbay. There would not have been a second season without a Suzaku who survived because Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay.

    4) You say that Euphemia continued to obey the geass command until she died. Euphemia did not obey the geass command in the sickbay and order Suzaku killed. And she probably stopped obeying the geass command before Lelouch shot her.

    The last thing Euphemia did to obey the command was to shoot her machine gun at the armored nightmares of Lelouch and Kallen. When Lelouch walked toward her she apologized for that. That was the last time she seemed aware of her geass command.

    Then she asked Zero to help her administer the SAZ, and then said that was not right, seeming to dimly remember than something had changed but not remembering clearly.

    Then she just stood around doing nothing to find more victims or ask Zero what he intended. The geass command knew that it had ordered a massacre of the Japanese people that Zero led, it knew that Euphemia's nightmare had just been destroyed (and possibly it knew that Zero's nightmare had done it) and it could see two Black Knight nightmares towering over Euphemia and Zero walking toward her. So if the geass command controlled Euphemia it should have made her do something about the situation. But Euphemia said and did nothing and did not seem to be resisting any command either. She just seemed to be trying to figure out what was going on and where she was.

    5) If Euphemia's subconscious resistance did not defeat her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch after hours or minutes of outward obedience and inner struggle, it was amazing good luck for Suazaku that it managed to find a way to defeat the geass command within seconds in the sickbay. If the geass command had managed to regain control for just a few seconds Euphemia would have ordered Suzaku executed.

    But if Euphemia's subconscious mind defeated her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch right before he shot her, then it would have simply remembered how to defeat the command and used that method instantly when the geass command tried to regain control of her in the sickbay. Suzaku's survival is much less incredible if Euphemia defeated her geass command before being shot.

    Suzaku lives during the second season, therefore Euphemia defeated her geass command before Lelouch shot her.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 09-07-2009 at 10:44 PM.

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    Suzaku would never have been killed as long as he had the 'live' geass in effect, remember? That geass got him out of at least one situation far worse than the one you're thinking about. The writers didn't see the point in Euphemia attempting to kill someone who can't be killed in the first place.

    Also, Euphemia was dying when she was talking to Suzaku correct? Its quite possible that she didn't order Suzaku killed (irrelevant because of his 'live' geass) because she wasn't in physical or mental condition to give that order in the first place. Geass is akin to mind control, it cant make you do something you cant do. Euphemia on her death bed in would not be mentally composed enough to give out an order to kill and plus she would have had to raise her voice a little bit to give the command to right? Tough to do when you are dying, sure she could talk but that doesn't mean she broke the Geass at all, the geass ceased to function as its conditions could no longer be met. Also you're forgetting it Nunally years to break that Geass because she never had a strong enough stimulus up until that point to want to break it bad enough and the Emperor's Geass was much stronger than his son's (Lelouch's Geass increased in power as the show went on). I doubt you could give an order to kill the one love WHILE you're shot, bleeding out, and dying with mere seconds to live. WAY too much to ask of a Geass.

    * Commands must be issued verbally.
    * Eye contact, either direct or via a reflective surface, is required for commands to be issued. The maximum effective distance is 270 meters.
    * Commands may be issued only once to any given individual, but any number of commands may be issued at initial application so long as eye contact is unbroken. In addition, the commands apparently never wear off so long as the conditions still apply. Since Jeremiah's Geass Canceler negates all Geass effects, those exposed to it may be commanded once again.
    * Commands are limited to what the victim is physical and mentally capable of, though they will try to carry out the command to the best of their ability. For example, a victim will not be able to correctly answer a question they don't know the answer to, but will direct the user to someone who can if they are able. The victim can also be commanded to forget things even though this is not normally biologically possible.
    * The victim's memories for the duration of command issue and execution are sealed and cannot be recalled, thus anyone affected by the power will not be able to remember anything they did while carrying out the command or who ordered them to do it.
    * Though a victim may resist a command at first, they will eventually submit.
    SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lelouch_Lamperouge
    Last edited by Neo-Eva; 09-07-2009 at 02:19 AM.

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  18. #168
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    ProEuphie here's some advice if the Code Geass anime/Euphie's death bothers you that much then don't Watch it find another anime to watch and stop obsessing over it it aint healthy or read the manga where she's still alive
    (I'll even give some personal examples:I'm a bit of a Go Nagai fan and read the last chapter of the Devilman Manga/Watched the Amon OVA and a bit of the live action film and the ending depressed me*It's a VERY tragic ending* So I stopped thinking about it and watched/read other less depressing anime/manga,I hated Evangelion's ending*but remain an Eva fan* so I read the AU manga and watch the rebuild films instead of the core series hopeing for a different*happier* ending and I hated Zeta Gundam's ending so I watch the fim version instead)

  19. #169
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Wolf View Post
    ProEuphie here's some advice if the Code Geass anime/Euphie's death bothers you that much then don't Watch it find another anime to watch and stop obsessing over it it aint healthy or read the manga where she's still alive
    (I'll even give some personal examples:I'm a bit of a Go Nagai fan and read the last chapter of the Devilman Manga/Watched the Amon OVA and a bit of the live action film and the ending depressed me*It's a VERY tragic ending* So I stopped thinking about it and watched/read other less depressing anime/manga,I hated Evangelion's ending*but remain an Eva fan* so I read the AU manga and watch the rebuild films instead of the core series hopeing for a different*happier* ending and I hated Zeta Gundam's ending so I watch the fim version instead)
    Well if proEuphy doesnt take your advice, is ok if I take it Im sure she wouldnt mind. I also hated evangalion and zeta gundams ending

  20. #170
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo-Eva View Post
    Suzaku would never have been killed as long as he had the 'live' geass in effect, remember? That geass got him out of at least one situation far worse than the one you're thinking about. The writers didn't see the point in Euphemia attempting to kill someone who can't be killed in the first place.
    Let me quote from your own quotation of geass rules: Commands are limited to what the victim is physical and mentally capable of, though they will try to carry out the command to the best of their ability.

    Suzaku could be killed after getting the geass command to survive. The geass command only made him try to survive. It didn't magically give him the ability to come back to life after being killed, like a geass giver. Lelouch commanded Shirley to survive but she couldn't.

    Furthermore, you opened a big can of worms by mentioning Suzaku's geass command, since he didn't even try, for more than a day or two, to the best of his ability, to survive. Suzaku was sufficiently cowardly when he was first given the command, but hours later he fought Kallen instead of running away when she tried to kill him. Then when Euphemia ordered him to attack Kallen he escaped from Kallen and then moved between Zero and his gun and Euphemia, as if to shield Euphie with his body. Minutes later when Kallen sat on the Gawain and shot a machine gun at Suzaku and Euphemia Suzaku did not try to shield Euphie nor did he cower behind her for protection.

    A day or two later Lelouch saw Suzaku fighting bravely to defeat the Chinese. And Suzaku was never cowardly or timid for the rest of the first season.

    If the first season lasted for thirty days to one year, and the girl who was commanded to carve a cross on the wall spent between one and ten minutes doing so under the control of the geass each day, then the total time she was controlled by the geass would be 30 to 3652.5 minutes, or 0.5 to 60.875 hours, or 0.02 to 2.536 days.

    It certainly seems like in the first season a geass command with no specified duration would control someone for a few hours or days and then fade away as Suzaku's did. Thus Lelouch and the audience should have expected that Euphemia's geass command with no specified duration would fade away in a few hours or days.

    In the second season the producers tried to rewrite the rules by mentioning geasses, though not geass commands from Lelouch, which lasted for several years, such as the eight years of Nunnally's blindness geass; by having the girl continue to carve crosses on the wall; and by having Suzaku sometimes affected by his geass command to survive, although sometimes he did risk his life bravely. The operation of his geass command was erratic, to say the least.

    So if Suzaku's geass command continued to be the proper model for Euphemia's geass command in the second season the audience should have expected that if Euphemia had survived her geass command would have quickly worn off and then reactivated from time to time. If she had to be locked up for the rest of her life as a precaution she would have been normal for most of the time and Suzaku could have lived with her safely most of the time and they could have raised a family (with precautions, of course) or possibly adopted children who did not look even partly Japanese, and she could have been happy most of the time. A far cry from some fans's dire predictions of what her fate would have been if she survived, but based on the closest analogy.

    I say that Suzaku's geass command didn't magically make it impossible to kill him, it just made him try to survive in one situation and a few other times during the next year. He survived until the end of the series mostly through luck and his skill as a fighter and just a little bit because his geass command sometimes make him act safely and not at all because it made him impossible to kill. There must be countless millions of alternate universes in which Suzaku was killed despite his geass command to survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neo-Eva View Post
    Also, Euphemia was dying when she was talking to Suzaku correct? Its quite possible that she didn't order Suzaku killed (irrelevant because of his 'live' geass) because she wasn't in physical or mental condition to give that order in the first place. Geass is akin to mind control, it cant make you do something you cant do. Euphemia on her death bed in would not be mentally composed enough to give out an order to kill and plus she would have had to raise her voice a little bit to give the command to right? Tough to do when you are dying, sure she could talk but that doesn't mean she broke the Geass at all, the geass ceased to function as its conditions could no longer be met. Also you're forgetting it Nunally years to break that Geass because she never had a strong enough stimulus up until that point to want to break it bad enough and the Emperor's Geass was much stronger than his son's (Lelouch's Geass increased in power as the show went on). I doubt you could give an order to kill the one love WHILE you're shot, bleeding out, and dying with mere seconds to live. WAY too much to ask of a Geass.

    * Commands must be issued verbally.
    * Eye contact, either direct or via a reflective surface, is required for commands to be issued. The maximum effective distance is 270 meters.
    * Commands may be issued only once to any given individual, but any number of commands may be issued at initial application so long as eye contact is unbroken. In addition, the commands apparently never wear off so long as the conditions still apply. Since Jeremiah's Geass Canceler negates all Geass effects, those exposed to it may be commanded once again.
    * Commands are limited to what the victim is physical and mentally capable of, though they will try to carry out the command to the best of their ability. For example, a victim will not be able to correctly answer a question they don't know the answer to, but will direct the user to someone who can if they are able. The victim can also be commanded to forget things even though this is not normally biologically possible.
    * The victim's memories for the duration of command issue and execution are sealed and cannot be recalled, thus anyone affected by the power will not be able to remember anything they did while carrying out the command or who ordered them to do it.
    * Though a victim may resist a command at first, they will eventually submit.
    SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lelouch_Lamperouge
    Yes it took Nunnally years to break her geass command, years in which it gradually wore out and ran out of energy and/or was attacked and worn down by Nunnally's subconscious mind which wanted her to see again. So if Euphemia did it thousands of times faster than Nunnally that merely means that Euphemia was even more superhuman than Nunnally.

    And was Euphie mere seconds away from death when the geass command tried and failed to regain control, or did she live for several minutes more?

    Let me remind you of this famous quote from "Silver Blaze":

    Gregory (Scotland Yard detective): "Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
    Holmes: "To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
    Gregory: "The dog did nothing in the night-time."
    Holmes: "That was the curious incident."

    The curious incident of the orders to kill Suzaku and destroy the nearest Japanese ghetto that were not given demands explanation, and Euphemia defeating her geass command is the most logical explanation.

    How can you say Euphie wasn't in mental or physical condition to order Suzaku killed?

    She could talk. And well.

    She didn't say gibberish like: "eos ind didns so sson ykxis spsn."

    She didn't use real worlds in grammatically incorrect sentences like: "Red to used cattlemen jumping was was eat."

    She didn't speak grammatically correct sentences which had no meaning in the situation like: "Suzaku, please promise me that you will never eat left-handed Muslim Englishmen again."

    No, she talked clearly about what mattered to her.

    Why would the geass command let her waste her ability to talk coherently on her selfish personal matters instead of doing her duty to obey and kill? If the geass command could take control of her it could make her give the order to kill. So what stopped the geass command from making her kill?
    Last edited by proEuphie; 09-07-2009 at 10:50 PM.

  21. #171
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Wolf View Post
    ProEuphie here's some advice if the Code Geass anime/Euphie's death bothers you that much then don't Watch it find another anime to watch and stop obsessing over it it aint healthy or read the manga where she's still alive
    (I'll even give some personal examples:I'm a bit of a Go Nagai fan and read the last chapter of the Devilman Manga/Watched the Amon OVA and a bit of the live action film and the ending depressed me*It's a VERY tragic ending* So I stopped thinking about it and watched/read other less depressing anime/manga,I hated Evangelion's ending*but remain an Eva fan* so I read the AU manga and watch the rebuild films instead of the core series hopeing for a different*happier* ending and I hated Zeta Gundam's ending so I watch the fim version instead)
    So you want me to watch some other anime? You have no idea of the wide variety of things that I watch and read -- some of those who have argued with me could tell you.

    I can't just switch off obsessing about it like a light bulb. The last time I was very outraged by a television plot line I couldn't think of anything else for six months. It's been almost a year now since I saw episode 23 and and it looks like it is going to take me years more to get over it.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 09-07-2009 at 10:21 PM.

  22. #172
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luluko View Post
    First: I loved your post <3



    I'll add the teacher from R1 who told Lelouch what was going to appear in the test. Teachers from R2 who went blind eye to Lelouch and Rolo's behavior. And that girl that was ordered to carv the wall. She acted normal, until she was sent to Britannia and was unable to keep carving the wall at Ashford.



    I don't think that the geass command turned off, the scene gave me the idea that Euphemia's logical process wasn't working anymore because she was getting weaker and dying. The order was there, but she wasn't able to connect the dots anymore. I don't know how to describe it, it's a weird feeling, like feeling light headed and then passing out.
    If you think Euphie couldn't think straight in the sickbay, see posts # 165, 166, 167, and 170
    Last edited by proEuphie; 09-07-2009 at 10:51 PM.

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    Member TrueTears has a brilliant future TrueTears has a brilliant future TrueTears has a brilliant future TrueTears has a brilliant future TrueTears has a brilliant future TrueTears has a brilliant future TrueTears has a brilliant future TrueTears has a brilliant future TrueTears has a brilliant future TrueTears has a brilliant future TrueTears has a brilliant future TrueTears's Avatar
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    Didn't euphie try to resist the geass at first? But then it took control of her?

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    Well if proEuphy doesnt take your advice, is ok if I take it Im sure she wouldnt mind. I also hated evangalion and zeta gundams ending
    I'm glad to be of help. and ProEuphie I never said it'd be an overnight thing(It took me months to get over Devilman's and Evangelion's endings*plus being a Shinji/Rei shipper and Asuka hater didn't help )

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    Hmm we agree to disagree pro-euphie but take some time to explore other anime like "Eden of the East" sure Code Geass certainly stunned me for a little bit but you can't just simply focus on that when there are so many great stories and characters to explore! Ever seen Serial Experiment Lain? I think its the most thought provoking anime I've ever seen in 11 years of watching anime.

    "Bloodstained Euphemia" was one the all time most shocking anime episodes I've ever seen, I think I may have cried when I saw that, not sure (very very rare for me).

    I'm just saying there other awesome characters out there you could be missing out on by focusing so much on Euphemia.

    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

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