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Thread: *SPOILERS* Did Euphie Escape...

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luluko View Post
    Nunnally defeating the Geass is debatable, since Charles re-wrote her memory as "she was blind due to trauma when Marianne was murdered". It was never said that she couldn't see again, it just took a big shock to make her open her eyes and see again. But did she defeat the Geass? My guess is not because she didn't pause and told herself: "Hey, dad did something weird to my memories... I don't remember watching my mother die at all..."

    And with the Euphie thing, I already addressed that on one of my previous post. Not gonna go and say it again.
    You didn't address it very well.

    Euphemia in the sickbay did not say things like: "Black tools very faster red bucket." or "sail to sky cloud loudness." All of her sentences were grammatically correct and understandable. And she did not ask Suzaku to eat only green-skinned children, not purple-skinned children, in the future. She didn't ask Suzaku to shoot a green flying shark. She didn't ask Suzaku if she had done well at dueling the ambassador from Mars, or at solving a crossword puzzle tattooed on the side of a six-legged elephant. Euphemia talked about matters which made sense in the situation.

    Her mental and physical condition in the sickbay was not bad enough to prevent her from giving orders to kill that might be obeyed. How could Euphemia or the geass command simply assume that the odds that an order to kill from her would be obeyed were so low, (ten percent?, one percent?, 0.1 percent?) that it wasn't even worth trying? No matter how low the geass command estimated the odds, it would have to make Euphie try it. Unless the geass command believed that trying to make Euphemia physically kill Suzaku had a better chance of success, which might be ruined by trying to to give an order which might warn him. But the geass command did not make her try to kill Suzaku physically, Anyway, success in killing Suzaku would not be nearly as lethal as success in ordering the Avalon to attack at least one Japanese ghetto.

    The geass command didn't make Euphie give a command to kill, therefore it never gained sufficient control of her to make her do anything. Therefore Euphemia defeated the attempt by her geass command to regain control in the sickbay. And very rapidly too. Her defeat of the geass command in the sickbay (and thus Suzaku's survival) only makes sense if she defeated the geass command before and thus knew exactly what to do to defeat it within seconds of becoming aware of it trying to take control again.

    It seems silly to suggest that Nunnally did not defeat her geass command in an attempt to make it seem less possible that Euphemia defeated her geass command.

    Euphemia was conscious and could talk rationally after the geass command tried to make her kill. But she did not try to order anyone to kill Suzaku or any other Japanese person. Therefore she was free of the geass command while still strong enough to kill. Therefore the geass command did not give up trying to make her kill because it found that she was too weak. Therefore the geass command was defeated by Euphemia. I think that is very strong and very convincing logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luluko View Post
    I also mentioned this on one of my post. Lelouch couldn't just take Euphie and make her a hostage, things would've turned out worst. Also, why reveal the power of the Geass? Just to explain Euphie's behavior? Again, that would've been the worst case scenario.
    Excuse me, how could things have turned out worse for the Black Rebellion and the Japanese if Lelouch took Euphemia as a hostage? Wasn't the Black Rebellion crushed? Weren't the Japanese punished with even stricter laws and fewer rights afterward?

    Show me a logical sequence of events, each with at least a fifty percent probability of resulting from the previous one, which would have led from taking Euphie hostage to a worse result for the Japanese cause than the failure of the Black Rebellion as shown in the series?

    If your proposed chain of events has two links each with a 50 % chance of following from the previous event, the end result will have only a 25 % chance of resulting from taking Euphie hostage. If it has three links with a 50% chance of resulting from the previous event, the end result will have a 12.5 % chance of resulting from taking Euphie hostage. If it has four links each with a fifty percent chance of resulting from the previous event the end result will have a 6.25 % chance of resulting from taking Euphie hostage. For your argument to be convincing you will have to have few links in your chain of events and prove that each of them has a very high probability of resulting from the previous event. Otherwise your predicted disaster will be only one of many possible results.

    Why do you assume that making Euphie a hostage or simply a prisoner would require that Lelouch explain to the world that she was insane, or possessed, or bewitched, or under some kind of mind control? Why do you assume that explaining to the world that Euphemia was insane, or possessed, or bewitched, or under some kind of mind control would require revealing the truth about Lelouch's geass power?
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-16-2009 at 10:51 AM.

  2. #127
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    Can't we all just concede whatever point proEuphie is trying to make so (s)he'll shut up/die in a fire?
    Ehhh, I dunno if I'll stick around. We'll see.

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  3. #128
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Your words that you would not call Euphemia timid despite her not being one of your favorite characters indicates that you consider timidity a negative quality. I suppose that means that if you had a chance to release some fictional kind of fear gas all over the world and make everyone cowardly you wouldn't do it.
    Once again, you made ONE assumption about me and my opinions and basically ran with it and made a huge post about it without any basis for it. By the way, while I really have no problem with civilians talking about the military, do not assume anything about my opinions based on what knowledge and opinions you may have on the military. I honestly do not care about what opinions you may have on the military (though I can take a really good guess), but don't assume anything about me based on it.

    Do I think that being timid is a negative quality in a person? No and my saying this effectively makes a large part of your post moot (you were better off asking me for clarification on the matter rather than making an incorrect assumption based on nothing). I do not think that being timid is a bad thing. HOWEVER, a person can't be timid and be a leader, soldier, police officer or a firefighter. These people can't be hesitant, fearful and lacking in self-confidence, especially when 2 seconds can mean the difference between life and death, and not just for another person but their OWN LIVES!! A person can be timid all they want and I wouldn't care but being timid is not a very good quality to have on the battlefield.

    I do think that a person could be fearless while protecting people, but be timid during some sort of military conflict, however, that does not mean that the person is, overall, a timid person.

    Because of this, despite what you say about the word "timid", I wouldn't call Euphemia an overall timid person. She has done quite a number of things that have proved that she is not timid. She is naive and quite politically and militarily challenged, but not timid. Although, even after you called her timid, and deemed it a compliment, you go on to mention the many things that Euphemia has done and even called her (and/or her actions) "brave", which is the very OPPOSITE definition of "timid".

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So if Nunnally is believed to have defeated her geass why don't you just accept that Euphemia defeated her geass just as much as Nunnally?
    That would require acknowledging the fact that Euphemia defeated the Geass, which, as you can tell by this ENTIRE thread, I don't believe that she did. EVER. And once AGAIN, IF Euphemia defeated the Geass in the sickbay, that means she ONLY escaped its control while in the sickbay, NOT before she got shot, which is THE QUESTION that YOU are asking.

    I am working with evidence that has been given to us thus far about the characters, the Geass and how it works. Since you haven't seen more than HALF of the series, your knowledge of the characters and the Geass is not very strong, hence the reason why most of things that you have said so far could not only be refuted but was also common knowledge for people who have seen the entire series. Its kinda hard to argue about a series when you have seen less than half of it.

    Also, most of things you have presented are pure speculation: Why didn't Euphemia do this? Why didn't she do that? If the Geass worked, why didn't she kill Suzaku? Why didn't Lelouch save her? Why did Euphemia stop shooting while she was still controlled by the Geass? Why did she say what she said? And you pretty much always say, "I guess...", "I guess..." "I guess...."

    Those questions are not "evidence" of anything. Some of them have answers, others do not, but that does not mean that the questions that we can't answer are evidence to your point. Code Geass is a cartoon. There are only so many things that can be presented and only so many things that can be explained. Any evidence that you bring forward has to come from the series (and be easily proven) in order to prove your point and can not be speculation.

    Why did Euphemia stop shooting when Lelouch was talking to her? Because it was in the script; the writers MADE it that way. Why didn't she kill Suzaku in the sickbay? Because the WRITERS made it that way. Why do ANY of the characters do ANYTHING? Because the writers made it that way. There is only so much that you can assume and speculate before the questions stop becoming evidence and end up being the proof of absolutely nothing. A cartoon has limits to its "reality" and not every single thing is going to operate like YOU expect it to (ie Euphemia killing Suzaku in the sickbay because the Geass "would" have made her) but will operate EXACTLY the way that the WRITERS expect it to (ie Euphemia NOT killing Suzaku in the sickbay).

    You asked a question and we are giving solid and proven evidence (from the series) in order to answer your question. If your opinion about Euphemia is the ONLY basis for your some of your answers and the only one that ultimately matters, then you are better off putting this in your blog, not making a thread about it, since this is effectively going nowhere.

    Either you concide your point, since virtually everything that you have brought up, I (and everybody else) have refuted (and usually more than once) and still can until we reach the post limit or you can just say "Well, I like Euphemia, she is the best character ever, so I really do not care what you have to say about her" and end the thread right here.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 08-14-2009 at 07:57 PM.
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  4. #129
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    ...Euphemia never did defeat the Geass. Full stop before you make any more speculations. wolfgirl's right, what happens in the series is actually the truth; it is what the real scriptwriters have planned, it is what actually happens to Euphemia in the anime. You don't have to argue whether she is strong or weak or whatnot, because her life ends THERE. In that way, it already proves itself. We ALL know that you like Euphemia, it shows from your name; so why don't you just happily end this (Scratch that, make it all of your Euphemia-related) thread(s) right HERE and go on a rant of your favourite character.

    The truth is: She did not overcome the Geass. Or she would not have BEEN DEAD, indirectly killed by it, in the first season.


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  5. #130
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NatsuNoAme View Post
    ...Euphemia never did defeat the Geass. Full stop before you make any more speculations. wolfgirl's right, what happens in the series is actually the truth; it is what the real scriptwriters have planned, it is what actually happens to Euphemia in the anime. You don't have to argue whether she is strong or weak or whatnot, because her life ends THERE. In that way, it already proves itself. We ALL know that you like Euphemia, it shows from your name; so why don't you just happily end this (Scratch that, make it all of your Euphemia-related) thread(s) right HERE and go on a rant of your favourite character.

    The truth is: She did not overcome the Geass. Or she would not have BEEN DEAD, indirectly killed by it, in the first season.
    In order to avoid making the audience hate Lelouch too much, the real scriptwriters gave Euphemia a beautiful death scene, highly unlikely to result from Lelouch ordering the Black Knights to kill Euphemia.

    Euphemia had to be conscious and able to speak and express her nobility and goodness for a beautiful death scene. She had to be uncontrolled by the geass, instead of shouting out orders to kill, kill, kill, for a beautiful death scene. Her boyfriend Suzaku had to be at her side for a beautiful death scene. Since Suzaku was there Euphemia had to be free of the control of the geass.

    Since Euphemia had to be able to talk for her last words, the real scriptwriters had to write her as being still strong enough to speak. Thus she was still strong enough to give orders. Thus she was still strong enough to kill. Thus the logic of the scene forced the real scriptwriters to write that Euphemia was able to kill (by ordering others to kill) but not killing, and thus free from the control of the geass.

    Since the geass command knew that Euphemia was still strong enough to kill, it would not have stopped trying to take her over because of her physical weakness.

    Wolfgirl90 "proved" that when she wrote that Euphemia would have gone crazy looking for Japanese to kill if she was confined in an asylum for the rest of her life, and therefore she would be better off dead. That was one of my reasons for starting this thread. Proving that Euphemia was still controlled by the geass when talking to Lelouch or in the sickbay would disprove what Wolfgirl90 wrote, and thus show the geass command was easygoing and would not drive Euphie insane with constant pressure to obey. And thus that Euphie would not have been better off dead than confined to an asylum for the rest of her life.

    Since Wolfgirl90 "proved" that the geass would relentlessly push Euphie to obey and kill for the rest of her life unless defeated, and since Euphie did not obey and kill when talking to Lelouch, even though Wolfgirl90 says that Euphie could hear living Japanese people screaming, and did not order Suzaku and/or other Japanese killed while she was in the sickbay, we can only conclude that therefore Euphemia defeated the geass.

    Once the real scriptwriters made what I consider a terrible decision to have Lelouch give Euphemia the geass command and order the Black Knights to kill her, they had three choices:

    1) Euphemia survives somehow, and nobody in the audience hates Lelouch for killing her, although some may hate him for ordering his men to kill her.

    2) Have Euphemia die in a way that was likely to result from Lelouch ordering the Black Knights to kill her. Yuck! That would have made many in the audience hate Lelouch.

    3) Give Euphemia the most beautiful and touching death scene possible, thus avoiding making the audience hate Lelouch for the brutal way Euphie dies. But that meant showing that she had defeated the geass, and thus that she was super humanly good and had super human power to resist geass. And thus making some members of the audience hate Lelouch for unnecessarily killing such a wonderful person, once they realize the truth.

    The real scriptwriters consciously or unconsciously wrote a scene which clearly shows that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay. Whether they knew it consciously or not, that was the way they had to write the scene, once they decided to give Euphemia a touching death scene. Period.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 02-18-2010 at 10:25 PM.

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manhattan_Project_2000 View Post
    Can't we all just concede whatever point proEuphie is trying to make so (s)he'll shut up/die in a fire?
    I like this post. Only thing I would change is that we should all agree that everybody EXCEPT ProEuphie is right, and THEN stop posting here. Since we've already done that, phase two can commence. All tasks at hand have been cleared, Lelouch vi Britannia commands you, do not post in this thread!

  7. #132
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Well, Euphemia has never actually been SEEN fighting another person, so there is no proof of how she "acts" when she is attacking or fighting. The closest we got was during the Battle of Narita but 1) she was not actually fighting and 2) this is the ONLY time that she was actually involved in a battle to begin with.

    However, despite the fact that Euphemia is not one of my favorite characters, I would not go so far as to say that she is timid. She may be naive, innocent and kindhearted to a FAULT, but she is certainly not timid. I mean, she walked out to stop soldiers from attacking Suzaku and stayed there even when one of them used a Chaos Mine. She said "You dare raise a hand against Euphemia Li Britannia?" when Kallen struck her. How in the world does that sound like someone who lacks self-confidence? To me, saying that to someone who has better equipment than you is a sign that you have a big ego, not that that you are timid. Euphemia has done plenty of gutsy things, so I do not know where you got this idea of her being "timid".

    In fact, you saying that she is is in complete contradiction to this strong, general-like goddess that you believe Euphemia to be.



    Well, after she apologized to Lelouch, she said "I thought you were one of them". Pretty harsh words to use when you are talking about the Japanese people that you loved so much and even tried to help.



    It would be less frightening, yes, but in the same way that suddenly finding your entire family dead in your house is "less" frightening than finding your entire family dead in your house and THEN finding out that you are the one who killed them. Both events are frighting, even mind-jarring.

    As far as Euphemia knows, she was standing in a room talking to her half-brother about helping the Japanese with the SAZ. If she broke the Geass, she would suddenly find herself covered in blood, dress in rags, with the bodies of slaughtered Japanese surrounding her (and the ones still alive screaming for mercy) and the SAZ in total ruin. Like any person, that would scare the ever loving crap out of her. To make matters worse, she was holding a gun, so if she put two and two together, I can only imagine that that would be utterly devastating.
    Yes, that would be very shocking for most people. But when we saw Euphemia in a vaguely similar situation in "Island of the Gods" she did not seem extremely excited or sacred. And what excitement and fear she felt could be explained by the fact that Zero was pointing a gun at her!

    And in "Black Knight" Euphie was held hostage for hours and then had a rather calm conversation with her brother's killer in a room full of dead bodies, which indicates that dead bodies don't scare her much.

    My post number 130 says that episode 23 had to be written to show that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay. it seems to me that one of the reasons why "Black Knight" and "Island of the Gods" were written the way they were was to show that Euphemia's normal self would not get excited when talking to Lelouch right before he shot her, and thus that she had broken free of the control of her geass command at that moment.

    Why do you think that there were bodies of dead Japanese lying around in sight of Euphemia when she was facing Lelouch/Zero? The massacre started at the stadium and radiated outwards from the stadium. That means that as the massacre went on Japanese groups and individuals got farther and farther apart from each other as they ran away from the pursuing Britannians and the groups of Britannians got farther and farther way from each other. So it is quite possible that Euphemia's nightmare was destroyed in a place where the ground was not covered with dead bodies.

    We did see a group of fleeing Japanese, and then the scene cut to a shot of Euphemia's nightmare shooting a cannon at some off screen target, then it was bumped by Kallen and eventually destroyed by Zero. We don't know how far away Euphemia's targets were and we don't know if she hit those targets, so we don't know if that left dead bodies in front of her or how distant they were and thus how visible they were.

    And what is this about wounded Japanese begging for mercy? I didn't hear those sounds when Euphemia was talking to Lelouch. If Euphie heard wounded Japanese people screaming for mercy in Japanese (which would be strong clue that they were Japanese and thus targets if she was still controlled by the geass) wouldn't that be a strong distraction to her as she talked to Lelouch? Wouldn't she be looking around to see where those voices were coming from, hoping to kill them if controlled by the geass or help them if not controlled by the geass, instead of watching Lelouch for the whole time?

    If some of those wounded Japanese people were close in front of her Euphie would have tried to shoot them if she was still controlled by the geass. Maybe they were behind Euphie. If so, Lelouch deliberately condemned them to death when he walked past Euphie and made her turn around. But since she didn't shoot, either there were no wounded Japanese begging for mercy behind her or she was free from the compulsion to kill.

    If Euphie, and thus Lelouch ,could hear wounded Japanese screaming for mercy clearly because they were close, wouldn't the fact that Euphie didn't go looking for those Japanese or show any interest in looking around to locate them prove that she was no longer controlled by the geass? Not trying to kill your targets when you are surrounded by piles of bodies, some still alive and proving it by begging for mercy, seems to prove that you have no more compulsion to kill them. And thus wouldn't the fact that Lelouch shot her anyway prove that he was totally ruthless and no longer worth the interest of his fans?

    But if Euphemia was still under the control of the geass and thus remembered everything she would know that either 1) her nightmare was destroyed by unknown people and two nightmares belonging to the Black Knights, protectors of her Japanese victims, were towering over her, or 2) Her nightmare had been destroyed by a Black Knight nightmare, and two nightmares belonging to the Black Knights, protectors of her Japanese victims, were towering over her. If Euphie was still under the control of the geass command and knew how she got where she was, she would have either freaked out or else done something to find out Lelouch/Zero's intentions and react accordingly.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    That doesn't make sense, at least not in the case that she broke the Geass.

    It seems that you are splitting hairs. She either completely defeated and escaped the control of the Geass (and therefore broke it) or she did not. There is no in between in this matter. You seem to be saying is that she defeated the Geass, but did not completely escape its control. She defeated the Geass enough to forget about the massacre she JUST caused but not enough to snap her into reality to where she would most likely break down at the site of all the carnage; remaining calm after a mind-shattering experience like that would be impossible for someone like Euphemia.

    When it came to that army analogy, you have to clarify by what you mean by "90% defeated". If an army has lost 90% of its men, then yeah, they are pretty much defeated (note: "pretty much"). However, if the purpose of the battle or war is to completely eliminate the enemy (which is usually the case), then defeating only 90% of them is not going to cut it. Its especially a problem when, not only was the army NOT defeated in the first place, but they came back! And at a time when you are weak.

    Euphemia achieving defeat of 90% of the Geass (again, your speculation, not mine) means absolutely nothing so long as only COMPLETELY defeating (meaning 100%) means that one broke it and escaped its control. We saw what only 90% defeat of the Geass got for Euphemia. IT CAME BACK!!



    The point I have been making is that red eyes mean that the Geass is still there, whether its completely in control, partially in control, or if the person is resisting. So as long as the Geass is STILL THERE (and the command is active), it has not been broken and the person will have red eyes. Euphemia having red eyes means that she didn't break the Geass, no matter how much of it that she "defeated".



    Well, not only was Sherlock Holmes brought back in "The Empty House" due to fan pressure but how he survived that fall was explained in the same book. Holmes never died.

    However, Euphemia is dead. Quite dead. We saw her get shot. He saw all that blood she lost. We saw her die. We saw her grave. Heck, Britannia took credit for her death by saying that they were the ones that killed her. So she is dead and there is no way work around that one.

    Now, is there a chance that she might come back in an alternate Code Geass manga? Yes. In fact, it has already happened, which is what I have been saying this whole time.
    I don't think that you really mean to claim that 100 percent annihilation of the enemy army is the usual goal in battle, even for the all victorious US army. Isn't Cannae known as the classic victory of annihilation, the one which countless tens and hundreds of generals have wasted their armies in futile attempts to emulate? Polybius gives the Roman army about a 96 percent casualty rate at Cannae, while Livy gives about 57.5 percent casualties. So my rough guess that Euphemia inflicted about 90 percent "casualties" on the geass "army" when she defeated it is equivalent to suggesting that it suffered a Cannae at her hands.

    Yes I claimed that Euphemia defeated her geass in a victory as as great as Cannae, somwtimes called the greatest military victory ever, though admittedly not a one hundred percent total victory such as you seem to think is possible to achieve.

    I don't think you meant to claim that Cannae, often considered the greatest military victory ever, was not a good enough victory. I think it would sound a little odd to claim that Cannae was a defeat for Hannibal because it was such an imperfect victory for him and the Romans fought on for almost two decades and eventually won!

    You say that the geass command came back and attacked Euphie when she was weak. Yes, Euphie was weak in the sickbay when the geass command attacked. Before her geass sensing abilities alerted her to the attempt to control her many seconds before the geass command had enough strength to put the red circles in her eyes.

    This time Euphemia was unaware of the attempt to control her for many seconds after it began, even after the geass command was strong enough to put the red circles in her eyes. It seemed like the geass command was certain to take her over without any resistance. Then Euphie became aware of the geass command, resisted it, and defeated it again within seconds.

    Euphie was very, very, weak. So weak she couldn't even detect the attempt to take control of her until it was almost totally accomplished. But when she did detect and resist the attempt to control her she defeated it easily. The only possible explanation for her instant defeat of the geass command the second time is that her subconscious mind continued to resist the gesas command after it took her over the first time, and eventually found a way to defeat the geass command, and defeated it while she was taking to Lelouch. Thus Euphie could simply remember how she defeated the geass command previously and use that method instantly when she became aware of the second attempt to control her.

    And it is no good claiming that Euphemia was took weak to kill and that the geass command gave up trying to control her because she was too weak to kill. The geass command knew that Euphie was strong enough to talk. It knew that she was strong enough to give orders. It knew that she was strong enough to kill. Therefore it would never have given up trying to control her and had to have been defeated by her.

    Your statement that Sherlock Holmes never died is true only in fictional universes which include all the Sherlock Holmes stories including "the Empty House". It was not true in any fictional universes which include only all the Sherlock Holmes stories published before "The Empty House". For almost a decade Sherlock Holmes was dead as a doorknob in the eyes of his sorrowful fans and his creator. It is my desire that as far as Euphemia is concerned Code Geass is in the period between "The Final Solution" and "The Empty House".

    I point out that we saw CC killed at least once, and supposedly she has been killed many times, including by beheading and burning at the stake. And no doubt she was buried after some of her deaths. If a mere human who has become a geass-giver can come back to life time after time, the gods should be able to come back to life time after time. If the gods can come back to life time after time, then Euphemia and Nunnally, who resisted geass commands and defeated geasses, which the gods could not, should be able to come back to life time after time.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-16-2009 at 11:05 AM.

  8. #133
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Once again, you made ONE assumption about me and my opinions and basically ran with it and made a huge post about it without any basis for it. By the way, while I really have no problem with civilians talking about the military, do not assume anything about my opinions based on what knowledge and opinions you may have on the military. I honestly do not care about what opinions you may have on the military (though I can take a really good guess), but don't assume anything about me based on it.

    Do I think that being timid is a negative quality in a person? No and my saying this effectively makes a large part of your post moot (you were better off asking me for clarification on the matter rather than making an incorrect assumption based on nothing). I do not think that being timid is a bad thing. HOWEVER, a person can't be timid and be a leader, soldier, police officer or a firefighter. These people can't be hesitant, fearful and lacking in self-confidence, especially when 2 seconds can mean the difference between life and death, and not just for another person but their OWN LIVES!! A person can be timid all they want and I wouldn't care but being timid is not a very good quality to have on the battlefield.

    I do think that a person could be fearless while protecting people, but be timid during some sort of military conflict, however, that does not mean that the person is, overall, a timid person.

    Because of this, despite what you say about the word "timid", I wouldn't call Euphemia an overall timid person. She has done quite a number of things that have proved that she is not timid. She is naive and quite politically and militarily challenged, but not timid. Although, even after you called her timid, and deemed it a compliment, you go on to mention the many things that Euphemia has done and even called her (and/or her actions) "brave", which is the very OPPOSITE definition of "timid".



    That would require acknowledging the fact that Euphemia defeated the Geass, which, as you can tell by this ENTIRE thread, I don't believe that she did. EVER. And once AGAIN, IF Euphemia defeated the Geass in the sickbay, that means she ONLY escaped its control while in the sickbay, NOT before she got shot, which is THE QUESTION that YOU are asking.

    I am working with evidence that has been given to us thus far about the characters, the Geass and how it works. Since you haven't seen more than HALF of the series, your knowledge of the characters and the Geass is not very strong, hence the reason why most of things that you have said so far could not only be refuted but was also common knowledge for people who have seen the entire series. Its kinda hard to argue about a series when you have seen less than half of it.

    Also, most of things you have presented are pure speculation: Why didn't Euphemia do this? Why didn't she do that? If the Geass worked, why didn't she kill Suzaku? Why didn't Lelouch save her? Why did Euphemia stop shooting while she was still controlled by the Geass? Why did she say what she said? And you pretty much always say, "I guess...", "I guess..." "I guess...."

    Those questions are not "evidence" of anything. Some of them have answers, others do not, but that does not mean that the questions that we can't answer are evidence to your point. Code Geass is a cartoon. There are only so many things that can be presented and only so many things that can be explained. Any evidence that you bring forward has to come from the series (and be easily proven) in order to prove your point and can not be speculation.

    Why did Euphemia stop shooting when Lelouch was talking to her? Because it was in the script; the writers MADE it that way. Why didn't she kill Suzaku in the sickbay? Because the WRITERS made it that way. Why do ANY of the characters do ANYTHING? Because the writers made it that way. There is only so much that you can assume and speculate before the questions stop becoming evidence and end up being the proof of absolutely nothing. A cartoon has limits to its "reality" and not every single thing is going to operate like YOU expect it to (ie Euphemia killing Suzaku in the sickbay because the Geass "would" have made her) but will operate EXACTLY the way that the WRITERS expect it to (ie Euphemia NOT killing Suzaku in the sickbay).

    You asked a question and we are giving solid and proven evidence (from the series) in order to answer your question. If your opinion about Euphemia is the ONLY basis for your some of your answers and the only one that ultimately matters, then you are better off putting this in your blog, not making a thread about it, since this is effectively going nowhere.

    Either you concide your point, since virtually everything that you have brought up, I (and everybody else) have refuted (and usually more than once) and still can until we reach the post limit or you can just say "Well, I like Euphemia, she is the best character ever, so I really do not care what you have to say about her" and end the thread right here.

    1) So you have responded to my humorous comments about how you might react to a hypothetical ability to use fear gas on the whole world.

    More seriously, you say that being timid may make a political or military leader hesitate for a split second on the battlefield and get himself and/or others killed.

    Think about Hitler, Stalin, Churchill, Roosevelt, Lincoln, Emperor Ferdinand II, King Phillip II of Spain, Justinian, Chin Shih Huang Ti, etc. etc. Each of them may have been recorded as acting brave and/or timid or even cowardly at some periods of their lives. But at their periods of greatest political and military importance they sent out armies but were not personally present on the battlefield. Thus a second's hesitation due to timidity or a moment of foolish action due to rashness would not have been fatal to them and/or others because they were not present at the battlefields. Thus being incredibly cowardly or reckless would not have made any difference to their performance as military leaders when they were at the height of their powers and historical importance.

    And being timid can be a very good quality to have on the battlefield if it leads to surrendering or running away sooner instead of fighting on to the death against hopeless odds like so many anime characters do. And it is a very good guality for the opposing army to have if you want victory for yur army.

    Saying that Euphemia is politically and militarily challenged is kind of strange. How many famous leaders can you think of who were as politically and militarily successful as Euphemia was at the age of sixteen? Tens or hundreds out of tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands, or millions of important political and military leaders in history.

    You probably don't think that Lelouch was politically or militarily challenged, but when he was Euphemia's age, ten months before the first season, he did not have any political or military achievements on his record.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    2) How can you possibly claim that you have proven that Euphemia did not defeat her geass command from the evidence given in the series?

    I point out that:

    1) she was not doing anything to obey the geass when Lelouch shot her despite your claim that she could hear living Japanese people screaming for mercy and thus asking to be killed if she was still controlled by the geass,

    2) She didn't react to the knowledge that the Black Knights had just attacked her which she would have known if she remembered everything due to still being controlled by the geass,

    3) In the sickbay she was still strong enough to kill and thus she must have defeated the geass command.

    And you just say that she could not possibly defeat her geass command based on what is known about geass from the first and second seasons.

    I say that Euphemia defeating her geass command is an important part of the total evidence about how geass works, and may have been written into the series with that intention. You may say that other evidence proves that Humans can not defeat geass commands and that even the gods can not resist geass commands. But that merely proves that Euphemia and Nunnally, who resisted and defeated geass, are in that respect higher than humans and the gods.

    My post # 130 claims that episode 23 was written to show that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay and had to be written that way.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-17-2009 at 10:32 PM.

  9. #134
    Senior Member +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+'s Avatar
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    *sigh* dont know why im getting in to this -_-

    The answer is simple.

    NO: she didn't break the geass.

    She HAD to be killed otherwise she would have kept on killing.

    She's a FICTIONAL character.

    You are posting uncontrollably its a wonder you haven't been banned.

    Let it go, its bad for your health.


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  10. #135
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    *sigh* dont know why im getting in to this -_-

    The answer is simple.

    NO: she didn't break the geass.

    She HAD to be killed otherwise she would have kept on killing.

    She's a FICTIONAL character.

    You are posting uncontrollably its a wonder you haven't been banned.

    Let it go, its bad for your health.
    You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry.

    Euphemia did not "have to be killed because she would have kept on killing".

    I am basically annoyed at the death of Euphemia because it is so obvious that Lelouch could have captured her alive just as safely and easily as he killed her, and once he was captured she could be confined where she wouldn't be much danger to anyone. Thus she was murdered, and you code geass fans refuse to admit that what you saw was a murder..

    Wolfgirl90 kept insisting, as you just did, that Euphemia had to be killed because she might escape and kill someone. Anybody in the whole world might someday kill someone. Do you or I have a written guarantee from God almighty saying that we will never kill anybody? No.

    Any one of your enemies who is already fighting you might kill some of your people and comrades sometime in the future. The only way to certainly prevent that would be to kill all your enemies, slaughter them ruthlessly, show no mercy, exterminate them without pity, and commit all kinds of war crimes that will make you one of the most evil people in history.

    But someone who is now neutral or even on your side might join the enemy side in the future and kill some of your comrades. If you are a warrior, even you might change sides in the future and kill some of the people you now fight to protect. There will always be at least a slight chance that you will someday kill someone that you now love.

    During the French and Indian War George Washington was a loyal British subject who fought alongside the king's soldiers and never dreamed that he and they would ever become enemies. A dozen years after the end of the war Washington found himself the commander of the rebel army seeking to defeat and kill some of his former comrades that he would have given his life for fifteen or twenty years earlier.

    Robert E. Lee and hundreds of officers from the South were loyal to the United States and fought alongside officers from the North in the Mexican War and on the frontier. They never believed that they would ever fight against the United States or their fellow officers. But eventually Robert E Lee and hundreds of other Southern officers did join the Confedracy and fight against their old country.

    You can not totally trust anyone to always be loyal to the people and causes that you are loyal to now, not even you yourself. So the only way to prevent anyone from ever killing anyone you now wish to protect is to kill everyone in the world, including those you wish to protect and you yourself, in order to be absolutely certain that nobody will kill them in the future!

    That does not make sense. And it does not make sense to kill everyone who might possibly kill someone in the future. If an enemy can be captured safely and confined with a reasonable expectation they will never escape to kill some of your people, you have to take them prisoner instead of killing them. You can't worry that they might escape and kill somebody on your side and use that as an excuse to kill them instead of capturing them.

    Throughout history, countless men and and women and children have been killed by evil people who used the slight possibillity that they might be dangerous to people on their side as an excuse to kill them. It is a crime to worry so much about someone's potential danger that you kill them when you can capture them alive with ease.

    If Euphemia was locked up with reasonable security she would be less dangerous than any of countless thousands and millions of rebels and soldiers in the world who were free and armed and might be given and obey orders to massacre.

    Take any person who is free. such as myself, proEephie, or Wolfgirl90, or xRiikox, or Alkazor, or anyone who is free. Anyone who is free can acquire a weapon, such as a gun, a knife, a club, etc., and kill someone if he or she decides to Or they could kill some one without a weapon, by pushing them off a balcony, or something. If a particular society has a murder rate of one per ten thousand per year, or one per one hundred thousand per year, or one per a million per year, then a native of that society would have a good chance of being murdered if he lived to be ten thousand, or a hundred thousand, or a million.

    But there must be a murderer for every victim, although not an exact equal number of murderers and victims. So if you lived for ten thousand years, or one hundred thousand years, or a million years, depending on the crime rate in the (mostly far future) society you would live in, you will have a good chance of becoming a murderer at least once. Of course the more evil someone is the more likely he will be to commit murder, so we would all like to believe that we are among the more innocent group and thus less likely to commit murder. But most (though not all) murderers also like to think that they are in the more innocent group and less likely to commit murder, at some points in their lives before they actually do kill.

    A lot of murderers are the kind of person that everyone who knew them expected to kill someone someday. But a lot of murderers do not seem very scary until they are accused. It is a cliche for the neighbors of a killer to say that he was such a nice quiet man who never gave any trouble. And many of them may have fooled themselves into believing they were good and innocent almost as long as they fooled the neighbors.

    A stranger might calculate that any one of us might have a one in a million to one in thousand chance of ever becoming a murderer, despite our beliefs that we are especially innocent.

    If it is right to kill Euphemia because of the threat she would pose even in confinement it is even more right to kill any free person such as proEuphie, or +Namiko+ or wolfgirl90 because of the even bigger threat that any free person poses. If it is wrong to kill Blackrosetwilight or Akazor or wolfgirl90 or xRiikox or any other random free person because of the tiny, insignificant, threat he poses it is even more wrong to kill Euphemia because of the even smaller threat she would pose if captured and confined.

    Anyway, Wolfgirl90 also wrote that since Euphemia could not be cured of the geass she would go crazy trying to find Japanese people to kill while she was confined. Wolfgirl90 imagined that Euphemia would foam at the mouth and rave like a raving lunatic in her frustration at not being able to kill Japanese people.

    But it is wrong to kill someone because you think that they will suffer if left alive. If they do suffer, suicide or death from old age will put an end to their suffering soon enough. Lelouch did not have the right to even think about how much Euphemia might possibly suffer if he did the right thing and took her prisoner, let alone decide that her hypothetical suffering would be worse than death.

    So I started this thread to discuss the possiibility that Euphemia defeated her geass before Lelouch shot her hoping to show that she would not have been controlled by the geass forever. It would not have been right to kill her even if she was certain to be controlled by the geass forever. So by proving that she would not have been controlled by the geass forever I would doubly disprove the idea that it would have been right to kill Euphemia because she would have been controlled by the geass forever.

    And after all the arguments pro and con I am more convinced than ever that Euphemia defeated her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch and again in the sickbay. And thus she would not have been dangerous and would not have suffered.

    But even if my opponents are right that Euphemia did not escape from the control of the geass, her behavior during the periods when I think she was free from the geass control has to be explained. If the geass did control her, how is that consistent with the idea of her being constantly dangerous while controlled by the geass, or suffering if she couldn't find any Japanese people to kill?

    If Euphemia was still controlled by the geass while talking to Lelouch, and in the sickbay, then the geass was not a slave driver but an easygoing master that did not demand excessive effort from those it controlled.

    So Euphemia would not have been very dangerous in confinement, and she would not have suffered much from her failure to find victims.

    Wolfgirl90 believes that Lelouch killed Euphemia for evil motives but her death was a good thing because of the danger she might possisbly kill someone and because she might suffer from captivity and the stress of not being able to satisfy the geass command. I think that the discussions of Euphemia's behavior during the periods that I think she was free from the geass shows that she would not have been very dangerous in confinement and that she would not have suffered very much, whether she escaped from the geass or not.

    Therefore wolfgirl90 was wrong and killing Euphemia was not a good thing, but even less good than she believes that killing herself, wolfgirl90, would be.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-27-2009 at 11:04 PM.

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry.

    Euphemia did not "have to be killed because she would have kept on killing".

    I am basically annoyed at the death of Euphemia because it is so obvious that Lelouch could have captured her alive just as safely and easily as he killed her, and once he was captured she could be confined where she wouldn't be much danger to anyone. Thus she was murdered, and you code geass fans refuse to admit that what you saw was a murder..

    Wolfgirl90 kept insisting, as you just did, that Euphemia had to be killed because she might escape and kill someone. Anybody in the whole world might someday kill someone. Do you or I have a written guarantee from God almighty saying that we will never kill anybody? No.

    Any one of your enemies who is already fighting you might kill some of your people and comrades sometime in the future. The only way to certainly prevent that would be to kill all your enemies, slaughter them ruthlessly, show no mercy, exterminate them without pity, and commit all kinds of war crimes that will make you one of the most evil people in history.

    But someone who is now neutral or even on your side might join the enemy side in the future and kill some of your comrades. If you are a warrior, even you might change sides in the future and kill some of the people you now fight to protect. There will always be at least a slight chance that you will someday kill someone that you now love.

    During the French and Indian War George Washington was a loyal British subject who fought alongside the king's soldiers and never dreamed that he and they would ever become enemies. A dozen years after the end of the war Washington found himself the commander of the rebel army seeking to defeat and kill some of his former comrades that he would have given his life for fifteen or twenty years earlier.

    Robert E. Lee and hundreds of officers from the South were loyal to the United States and fought alongside officers from the North in the Mexican War and on the frontier. They never believed that they would ever fight against the United States or their fellow officers. But eventually Robert E Lee and hundreds of other Southern officers did join the Confedracy and fight against their old country.

    You can not totally trust anyone to always be loyal to the people and causes that you are loyal to now, not even you yourself. So the only way to prevent anyone from ever killing anyone you now wish to protect is to kill everyone in the world, including those you wish to protect and you yourself, in order to be absolutely certain that nobody will kill them in the future!

    That does not make sense. And it does not make sense to kill everyone who might possibly kill someone in the future. If an enemy can be captured safely and confined with a reasonable expectation they will never escape to kill some of your people, you have to take them prisoner instead of killing them. You can't worry that they might escape and kill somebody on your side and use that as an excuse to kill them instead of capturing them.

    Throughout history, countless men and and women and children have been killed by evil people who used the slight possibillity that they might be dangerous to people on their side as an excuse to kill them. It is a crime to worry so much about someone's potential danger that you kill them when you can capture them alive with ease.

    If Euphemia was locked up with reasonable security she would be less dangerous than any of countless thousands and millions of rebels and soldiers in the world who were free and armed and might be given and obey orders to massacre.

    Wolfgirl90 once wrote that she is in the military. If so, the slight but real potential danger that she might be ordered to take part in a terrible massacre and obey those orders is greater than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia. If Euphemia should be killed instead of captured because of her potential danger to others, wolfgirl90 should be killed to end the danger she represents, which is very small but much larger than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia..

    But Wolfgirl90 does not believe that she is so dangerous that she should be killed to end that danger, even though she is obviously more dangerous than Euphemia would be if confined.

    And don't make a big fuss about this wolfgirl90. I didn't say that you were a dangerous homicidal killer who had to be killed to end the danger you represent. I don't think that you are any more dangerous than tens and hundreds of millions of other people. Maybe you are among the fifty percent or ten percent most dangerous of the over six billion people on the planet.

    And I think that the probability that you will ever commit an unjustified homicide is very, very, slight, wolfgirl90. I just pointed out the obvious fact that since you are human and free and have access to weapons and are trained to use them the probability that you will commit an unjustified homicide is much greater than that of Euphemia if she was confined in reasonable security.

    If it is right to kill Euphemia because of the threat she poses it is even more right to kill wolfgirl90 because of the even bigger threat she poses. If it is wrong to kill wolfgirl90 because of the tiny, insignificant, threat she poses it is even more wrong to kill Euphemia because of the even smaller threat she poses.

    Anyway, Wolfgirl90 also wrote that since Euphemia could not be cured of the geass she would go crazy trying to find Japanese people to kill while she was confined. Wolfgirl90 imagined that Euphemia would foam at the mouth and rave like a raving lunatic in her frustration at not being able to kill Japanese people.

    But it is wrong to kill someone because you think that they will suffer if left alive. If they do suffer, suicide or death from old age will put an end to their suffering soon enough. Lelouch did not have the right to even think about how much Euphemia might possibly suffer if he did the right thing and took her prisoner, let alone decide that her hypothetical suffering would be worse than death.

    So I started this thread to discuss the possiibility that Euphemia defeated her geass before Lelouch shot her hoping to show that she would not have been controlled by the geass forever. It would not have been right to kill her even if she was certain to be controlled by the geass forever. So by proving that she would not have been controlled by the geass forever I would doubly disprove the idea that it would have been right to kill Euphemia because she would have been controlled by the geass forever.

    And after all the arguments pro and con I am more convinced than ever that Euphemia defeated her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch and again in the sickbay. And thus she would not have been dangerous and would not have suffered.

    But even if my opponents are right that Euphemia did not escape from the control of the geass, her behavior during the periods when I think she was free from the geass control has to be explained. If the geass did control her, how is that consistent with the idea of her being constantly dangerous while controlled by the geass, or suffering if she couldn't find any Japanese people to kill?

    If Euphemia was still controlled by the geass while talking to Lelouch, and in the sickbay, then the geass was not a slave driver but an easygoing master that did not demand excessive effort from those it controlled.

    So Euphemia would not have been very dangerous in confinement, and she would not have suffered much from her failure to find victims.

    Wolfgirl90 believes that Lelouch killed Euphemia for evil motives but her death was a good thing because of the danger she might possisbly kill someone and because she might suffer from captivity and the stress of not being able to satisfy the geass command. I think that the discussions of Euphemia's behavior during the periods that I think she was free from the geass shows that she would not have been very dangerous in confinement and that she would not have suffered very much, whether she escaped from the geass or not.

    Therefore wolfgirl90 was wrong and killing Euphemia was not a good thing, but even less good than she believes that killing herself, wolfgirl90, would be.
    ...Look, you are literally making assumptions here. Fantasizing, too. Er...it IS a fact that Euphemia was an object of lesbian affection, if you do want to go on. No, in fact stop going on and on; save all Code Geass fans here the trouble.
    Here are my points (you can choose to agree or disagree, I'm sure you'll choose the latter; I simply cannot be bothered about you anymore.):
    Let me put your pompous speech to an end. If not, I shall endeavour to have you banned, as many others have.
    Quote: [You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry.]
    I'm sorry, dear, but this ain't your thread and we're not inclined to listen to you. And anyone could tell that you're not sorry at all.

    Quote: I am basically annoyed at the death of Euphemia because it is so obvious that Lelouch could have captured her alive just as safely and easily as he killed her, and once he was captured she could be confined where she wouldn't be much danger to anyone. Thus she was murdered, and you code geass fans refuse to admit that what you saw was a murder..
    Take your annoyance somewhere else, you annoy us the most. Like most of us have tried to tell you; you know by now that it isn't appreciated here, nor is it going to be in the near future. Sense here: Why would Lelouch allow himself to be captured? He still has a lot of plans to carry out. Yes, it was a murder. Yes, he has murdered lots of people in cold blood. And yes, the producers planned it that way.


    Quote: Wolfgirl90 kept insisting, as you just did, that Euphemia had to be killed because she might escape and kill someone. Anybody in the whole world might someday kill someone. Do you or I have a written guarantee from God almighty saying that we will never kill anybody? No.

    Any one of your enemies who is already fighting you might kill some of your people and comrades sometime in the future. The only way to certainly prevent that would be to kill all your enemies, slaughter them ruthlessly, show no mercy, exterminate them without pity, and commit all kinds of war crimes that will make you one of the most evil people in history.

    But someone who is now neutral or even on your side might join the enemy side in the future and kill some of your comrades. If you are a warrior, even you might change sides in the future and kill some of the people you now fight to protect. There will always be at least a slight chance that you will someday kill someone that you now love.


    Yes, and that is why Euphemia had to be killed. I hope you understand it now, 'cause you sure ain't getting the point like the rest of us do, that she literally turned evil (went over to the enemy side, in a way. How she do contradict herself under control of the Geass). Are you (a) so obsessed or (b) so dense that you cannot see this point? Well, which one is it?

    Quote: During the French and Indian War George Washington was a loyal British subject who fought alongside the king's soldiers and never dreamed that he and they would ever become enemies. A dozen years after the end of the war Washington found himself the commander of the rebel army seeking to defeat and kill some of his former comrades that he would have given his life for fifteen or twenty years earlier.

    Robert E. Lee and hundreds of officers from the South were loyal to the United States and fought alongside officers from the North in the Mexican War and on the frontier. They never believed that they would ever fight against the United States or their fellow officers. But eventually Robert E Lee and hundreds of other Southern officers did join the Confedracy and fight against their old country.

    You can not totally trust anyone to always be loyal to the people and causes that you are loyal to now, not even you yourself. So the only way to prevent anyone from ever killing anyone you now wish to protect is to kill everyone in the world, including those you wish to protect and you yourself, in order to be absolutely certain that nobody will kill them in the future!

    That does not make sense. And it does not make sense to kill everyone who might possibly kill someone in the future. If an enemy can be captured safely and confined with a reasonable expectation they will never escape to kill some of your people, you have to take them prisoner instead of killing them. You can't worry that they might escape and kill somebody on your side and use that as an excuse to kill them instead of capturing them.


    Throughout history, countless men and and women and children have been killed by evil people who used the slight possibillity that they might be dangerous to people on their side as an excuse to kill them. It is a crime to worry so much about someone's potential danger that you kill them when you can capture them alive with ease.

    If Euphemia was locked up with reasonable security she would be less dangerous than any of countless thousands and millions of rebels and soldiers in the world who were free and armed and might be given and obey orders to massacre.


    I shall excuse your blatant misuse of History. By the way, in case you really, really haven't got it into your thick head, was killed AFTER she ordered the massacre. It wasn't because of the possibility of it happening, the possibility that she would kill someone, but because of the fact that she had already slaughtered thousands of elevens.
    And please make sense. No-one would have been able to restrain her, anyway, because of the royal guard. Do you think that they would have allowed that to happen? Besides, she already gave them orders to kill the Elevens.

    Quote: Wolfgirl90 once wrote that she is in the military. If so, the slight but real potential danger that she might be ordered to take part in a terrible massacre and obey those orders is greater than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia. If Euphemia should be killed instead of captured because of her potential danger to others, wolfgirl90 should be killed to end the danger she represents, which is very small but much larger than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia..

    But Wolfgirl90 does not believe that she is so dangerous that she should be killed to end that danger, even though she is obviously more dangerous than Euphemia would be if confined.

    And don't make a big fuss about this wolfgirl90. I didn't say that you were a dangerous homicidal killer who had to be killed to end the danger you represent. I don't think that you are any more dangerous than tens and hundreds of millions of other people. Maybe you are among the fifty percent or ten percent most dangerous of the over six billion people on the planet.

    And I think that the probability that you will ever commit an unjustified homicide is very, very, slight, wolfgirl90. I just pointed out the obvious fact that since you are human and free and have access to weapons and are trained to use them the probability that you will commit an unjustified homicide is much greater than that of Euphemia if she was confined in reasonable security.

    If it is right to kill Euphemia because of the threat she poses it is even more right to kill wolfgirl90 because of the even bigger threat she poses. If it is wrong to kill wolfgirl90 because of the tiny, insignificant, threat she poses it is even more wrong to kill Euphemia because of the even smaller threat she poses.

    Anyway, Wolfgirl90 also wrote that since Euphemia could not be cured of the geass she would go crazy trying to find Japanese people to kill while she was confined. Wolfgirl90 imagined that Euphemia would foam at the mouth and rave like a raving lunatic in her frustration at not being able to kill Japanese people.


    Ahhh. Simply Amazing. You are the first person I have met (albeit online) who would so literally drag an anime into real life, and aim it at real-life people. Unfortunately, I do not think the anime world of Code Geass should be abused this way by you. What has happened has happened, I give you sound advice: get over it. I suppose you would verily bleed your heart out, or die, if Euphemia was killed. Oh, but brilliant, she has been, and you're still alive, aren't you? Don't give me some crap about how your poor heart bleeds for her or how you sobbed your pitiful eyes out at her funeral. Euphemia is a nice character, don't make me hate her. Your delusion has nothing to do with Wolfgirl, because she is not like you are, she is a nice and normal person, not like you.

    Quote: And after all the arguments pros and cons I am more convinced than ever that Euphemia defeated her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch and again in the sickbay. And thus she would not have been dangerous and would not have suffered.

    But even if my opponents are right that Euphemia did not escape from the control of the geass, her behavior during the periods when I think she was free from the geass control has to be explained. If the geass did control her, how is that consistent with the idea of her being constantly dangerous while controlled by the geass, or suffering if she couldn't find any Japanese people to kill?

    If Euphemia was still controlled by the geass while talking to Lelouch, and in the sickbay, then the geass was not a slave driver but an easygoing master that did not demand excessive effort from those it controlled.

    So Euphemia would not have been very dangerous in confinement, and she would not have suffered much from her failure to find victims.

    Wolfgirl90 believes that Lelouch killed Euphemia for evil motives but her death was a good thing because of the danger she might possisbly kill someone and because she might suffer from captivity and the stress of not being able to satisfy the geass command. I think that the discussions of Euphemia's behavior during the periods that I think she was free from the geass shows that she would not have been very dangerous in confinement and that she would not have suffered very much, whether she escaped from the geass or not.

    Therefore wolfgirl90 was wrong and killing Euphemia was not a good thing, but even less good than she believes that killing herself, wolfgirl90, would be.


    I think you have got it wrong. We are NOT discussing if killing Euphemia was a good thing or not. We are discussing if Euphemia escaped from the control of the Geass she was under before she died; read the thread title, please. We were not your 'opponents', as you so pleasantly state. In the first place, we did not want a debate. You started one. By the abuse you always recieve, shouldn't you get the point into your THICK HEAD already that no-one wants you in the Code Geass forum (or any other forum, actually) unless you change? But I think that's pretty much a lost cause now.

    It's okay if you want everyone to hate you, [in fact, we already do] but do stop spamming. Many people have probably told you this, right? Thus your rapidly declining reputation that cannot be reduced any more than it is. I wonder what people think of you in real life; do they cover their ears when you come near? Ah well, I rest my case. It is absolutely typical of you to drag your conflict from another of your threads into this one, and then critisize anyone who has a different opinion. Arigatou gozaimashita.


    「そんな顔をしないで。また会えるよ、シンジ君」
    ---

    もう二度と会えないなんて信じられない
    まだ何も伝えてない
    まだ何も伝えてない


    I'm sorry (not) sorry.

  12. #137
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    I wonder if Nina reacted this way when Euphie was killed...Personally I laughed my *** off at how well things had gone.

    Anyway, I think the better question here is how anybody else here escaped my Geass. I thought it worked over computers...

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkazor View Post
    I wonder if Nina reacted this way when Euphie was killed...Personally I laughed my *** off at how well things had gone.

    Anyway, I think the better question here is how anybody else here escaped my Geass. I thought it worked over computers...
    Nah I think should took it better. She did get over euphy's death when lelouch became emporer, she just didnt get over the fact that it was Lelouch who did her in. In fact you should already know she even joins him.

  14. #139
    Senior Member +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+'s Avatar
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    "You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry."

    Yyyyyah. Thats why. i rlllllllllly think you need to STOP. you are LOOSING irrtiating COUNTLESS people. You need to kindly GET OVER IT.
    You are making a mockery of people in real life.

    You remind me of Nina. Geeze. This isnt heathly for you. get over it plz.

    And forgive me but did you not START this whole thread going after wolfgirl90?
    was that not part of, even though not the whole, what you put in your original post? That was rude and obnoxious of you. You seem to have wrapped youself somuch in the life of a mary sue fictional character that you seem to have forgotten common courtesy to REAL PEOPLE.


    It seems to me that you cant accept the fact that someone dissagrees with you. Guess what. Euphie was a minor character, destined to die from the start. She did not die because lelouch was evil. She did not die because she might have killed more people. she died because

    IT
    MADE
    GOOD
    TV!!!


    Drama drama drama. Code Geass was a DRAMA. I dont know how old you are but you OBVIOUSLY werent mature enough to handle it. You give a bad name to anime fans everywhere with your obsession. So GROW UP and GET OVER IT.

    She's

    NOT REAL


    She's

    D E A D

    Have a nice day, k?


    Fatal Frame II




    Because Friendship is MAGIC!

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    "You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry."

    Yyyyyah. Thats why. i rlllllllllly think you need to STOP. you are LOOSING irrtiating COUNTLESS people. You need to kindly GET OVER IT.
    You are making a mockery of people in real life.

    You remind me of Nina. Geeze. This isnt heathly for you. get over it plz.

    And forgive me but did you not START this whole thread going after wolfgirl90?
    was that not part of, even though not the whole, what you put in your original post? That was rude and obnoxious of you. You seem to have wrapped youself so much in the life of a mary sue fictional character that you seem to have forgotten common courtesy to REAL PEOPLE.


    It seems to me that you cant accept the fact that someone dissagrees with you. Guess what. Euphie was a minor character, destined to die from the start. She did not die because lelouch was evil. She did not die because she might have killed more people. she died because

    IT
    MADE
    GOOD
    TV!!!


    Drama drama drama. Code Geass was a DRAMA. I dont know how old you are but you OBVIOUSLY werent mature enough to handle it. You give a bad name to anime fans everywhere with your obsession. So GROW UP and GET OVER IT.

    She's

    NOT REAL

    She's

    D E A D

    Have a nice day, k?

    I like this. ^^
    High five, kudos to you.


    「そんな顔をしないで。また会えるよ、シンジ君」
    ---

    もう二度と会えないなんて信じられない
    まだ何も伝えてない
    まだ何も伝えてない


    I'm sorry (not) sorry.

  16. #141
    Senior Member +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    I like this. ^^
    High five, kudos to you.

    *highfive* :3
    yay n_n i feel special!


    Fatal Frame II




    Because Friendship is MAGIC!

  17. #142
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    ...Look, you are literally making assumptions here. Fantasizing, too. Er...it IS a fact that Euphemia was an object of lesbian affection, if you do want to go on. No, in fact stop going on and on; save all Code Geass fans here the trouble.
    Here are my points (you can choose to agree or disagree, I'm sure you'll choose the latter; I simply cannot be bothered about you anymore.):
    Let me put your pompous speech to an end. If not, I shall endeavour to have you banned, as many others have.
    Quote: [You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry.]
    I'm sorry, dear, but this ain't your thread and we're not inclined to listen to you. And anyone could tell that you're not sorry at all.

    Quote: I am basically annoyed at the death of Euphemia because it is so obvious that Lelouch could have captured her alive just as safely and easily as he killed her, and once he was captured she could be confined where she wouldn't be much danger to anyone. Thus she was murdered, and you code geass fans refuse to admit that what you saw was a murder..
    Take your annoyance somewhere else, you annoy us the most. Like most of us have tried to tell you; you know by now that it isn't appreciated here, nor is it going to be in the near future. Sense here: Why would Lelouch allow himself to be captured? He still has a lot of plans to carry out. Yes, it was a murder. Yes, he has murdered lots of people in cold blood. And yes, the producers planned it that way.


    Quote: Wolfgirl90 kept insisting, as you just did, that Euphemia had to be killed because she might escape and kill someone. Anybody in the whole world might someday kill someone. Do you or I have a written guarantee from God almighty saying that we will never kill anybody? No.

    Any one of your enemies who is already fighting you might kill some of your people and comrades sometime in the future. The only way to certainly prevent that would be to kill all your enemies, slaughter them ruthlessly, show no mercy, exterminate them without pity, and commit all kinds of war crimes that will make you one of the most evil people in history.

    But someone who is now neutral or even on your side might join the enemy side in the future and kill some of your comrades. If you are a warrior, even you might change sides in the future and kill some of the people you now fight to protect. There will always be at least a slight chance that you will someday kill someone that you now love.


    Yes, and that is why Euphemia had to be killed. I hope you understand it now, 'cause you sure ain't getting the point like the rest of us do, that she literally turned evil (went over to the enemy side, in a way. How she do contradict herself under control of the Geass). Are you (a) so obsessed or (b) so dense that you cannot see this point? Well, which one is it?

    Quote: During the French and Indian War George Washington was a loyal British subject who fought alongside the king's soldiers and never dreamed that he and they would ever become enemies. A dozen years after the end of the war Washington found himself the commander of the rebel army seeking to defeat and kill some of his former comrades that he would have given his life for fifteen or twenty years earlier.

    Robert E. Lee and hundreds of officers from the South were loyal to the United States and fought alongside officers from the North in the Mexican War and on the frontier. They never believed that they would ever fight against the United States or their fellow officers. But eventually Robert E Lee and hundreds of other Southern officers did join the Confedracy and fight against their old country.

    You can not totally trust anyone to always be loyal to the people and causes that you are loyal to now, not even you yourself. So the only way to prevent anyone from ever killing anyone you now wish to protect is to kill everyone in the world, including those you wish to protect and you yourself, in order to be absolutely certain that nobody will kill them in the future!

    That does not make sense. And it does not make sense to kill everyone who might possibly kill someone in the future. If an enemy can be captured safely and confined with a reasonable expectation they will never escape to kill some of your people, you have to take them prisoner instead of killing them. You can't worry that they might escape and kill somebody on your side and use that as an excuse to kill them instead of capturing them.


    Throughout history, countless men and and women and children have been killed by evil people who used the slight possibillity that they might be dangerous to people on their side as an excuse to kill them. It is a crime to worry so much about someone's potential danger that you kill them when you can capture them alive with ease.

    If Euphemia was locked up with reasonable security she would be less dangerous than any of countless thousands and millions of rebels and soldiers in the world who were free and armed and might be given and obey orders to massacre.


    I shall excuse your blatant misuse of History. By the way, in case you really, really haven't got it into your thick head, was killed AFTER she ordered the massacre. It wasn't because of the possibility of it happening, the possibility that she would kill someone, but because of the fact that she had already slaughtered thousands of elevens.
    And please make sense. No-one would have been able to restrain her, anyway, because of the royal guard. Do you think that they would have allowed that to happen? Besides, she already gave them orders to kill the Elevens.

    Quote: Wolfgirl90 once wrote that she is in the military. If so, the slight but real potential danger that she might be ordered to take part in a terrible massacre and obey those orders is greater than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia. If Euphemia should be killed instead of captured because of her potential danger to others, wolfgirl90 should be killed to end the danger she represents, which is very small but much larger than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia..

    But Wolfgirl90 does not believe that she is so dangerous that she should be killed to end that danger, even though she is obviously more dangerous than Euphemia would be if confined.

    And don't make a big fuss about this wolfgirl90. I didn't say that you were a dangerous homicidal killer who had to be killed to end the danger you represent. I don't think that you are any more dangerous than tens and hundreds of millions of other people. Maybe you are among the fifty percent or ten percent most dangerous of the over six billion people on the planet.

    And I think that the probability that you will ever commit an unjustified homicide is very, very, slight, wolfgirl90. I just pointed out the obvious fact that since you are human and free and have access to weapons and are trained to use them the probability that you will commit an unjustified homicide is much greater than that of Euphemia if she was confined in reasonable security.

    If it is right to kill Euphemia because of the threat she poses it is even more right to kill wolfgirl90 because of the even bigger threat she poses. If it is wrong to kill wolfgirl90 because of the tiny, insignificant, threat she poses it is even more wrong to kill Euphemia because of the even smaller threat she poses.

    Anyway, Wolfgirl90 also wrote that since Euphemia could not be cured of the geass she would go crazy trying to find Japanese people to kill while she was confined. Wolfgirl90 imagined that Euphemia would foam at the mouth and rave like a raving lunatic in her frustration at not being able to kill Japanese people.


    Ahhh. Simply Amazing. You are the first person I have met (albeit online) who would so literally drag an anime into real life, and aim it at real-life people. Unfortunately, I do not think the anime world of Code Geass should be abused this way by you. What has happened has happened, I give you sound advice: get over it. I suppose you would verily bleed your heart out, or die, if Euphemia was killed. Oh, but brilliant, she has been, and you're still alive, aren't you? Don't give me some crap about how your poor heart bleeds for her or how you sobbed your pitiful eyes out at her funeral. Euphemia is a nice character, don't make me hate her. Your delusion has nothing to do with Wolfgirl, because she is not like you are, she is a nice and normal person, not like you.

    Quote: And after all the arguments pros and cons I am more convinced than ever that Euphemia defeated her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch and again in the sickbay. And thus she would not have been dangerous and would not have suffered.

    But even if my opponents are right that Euphemia did not escape from the control of the geass, her behavior during the periods when I think she was free from the geass control has to be explained. If the geass did control her, how is that consistent with the idea of her being constantly dangerous while controlled by the geass, or suffering if she couldn't find any Japanese people to kill?

    If Euphemia was still controlled by the geass while talking to Lelouch, and in the sickbay, then the geass was not a slave driver but an easygoing master that did not demand excessive effort from those it controlled.

    So Euphemia would not have been very dangerous in confinement, and she would not have suffered much from her failure to find victims.

    Wolfgirl90 believes that Lelouch killed Euphemia for evil motives but her death was a good thing because of the danger she might possisbly kill someone and because she might suffer from captivity and the stress of not being able to satisfy the geass command. I think that the discussions of Euphemia's behavior during the periods that I think she was free from the geass shows that she would not have been very dangerous in confinement and that she would not have suffered very much, whether she escaped from the geass or not.

    Therefore wolfgirl90 was wrong and killing Euphemia was not a good thing, but even less good than she believes that killing herself, wolfgirl90, would be.


    I think you have got it wrong. We are NOT discussing if killing Euphemia was a good thing or not. We are discussing if Euphemia escaped from the control of the Geass she was under before she died; read the thread title, please. We were not your 'opponents', as you so pleasantly state. In the first place, we did not want a debate. You started one. By the abuse you always recieve, shouldn't you get the point into your THICK HEAD already that no-one wants you in the Code Geass forum (or any other forum, actually) unless you change? But I think that's pretty much a lost cause now.

    It's okay if you want everyone to hate you, [in fact, we already do] but do stop spamming. Many people have probably told you this, right? Thus your rapidly declining reputation that cannot be reduced any more than it is. I wonder what people think of you in real life; do they cover their ears when you come near? Ah well, I rest my case. It is absolutely typical of you to drag your conflict from another of your threads into this one, and then critisize anyone who has a different opinion. Arigatou gozaimashita.
    You will probably not like this but part of your post is arguing against a misprint in my post. I wrote " once he was captured" when I meant to write "once she was captured".

    Quote: I am basically annoyed at the death of Euphemia because it is so obvious that Lelouch could have captured her alive just as safely and easily as he killed her, and once he was captured she could be confined where she wouldn't be much danger to anyone. Thus she was murdered, and you code geass fans refuse to admit that what you saw was a murder..
    Take your annoyance somewhere else, you annoy us the most. Like most of us have tried to tell you; you know by now that it isn't appreciated here, nor is it going to be in the near future. Sense here: Why would Lelouch allow himself to be captured? He still has a lot of plans to carry out. Yes, it was a murder. Yes, he has murdered lots of people in cold blood. And yes, the producers planned it that way.


    So when you wrote "why would Lelouch allow himself to be captured?" You are questioning a misprint which I didn't notice and correct. And you didn't notice that I obviously intended to write "she" instead of "he".

  18. #143
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    "You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry."

    Yyyyyah. Thats why. i rlllllllllly think you need to STOP. you are LOOSING irrtiating COUNTLESS people. You need to kindly GET OVER IT.
    You are making a mockery of people in real life.

    You remind me of Nina. Geeze. This isnt heathly for you. get over it plz.

    And forgive me but did you not START this whole thread going after wolfgirl90?
    was that not part of, even though not the whole, what you put in your original post? That was rude and obnoxious of you. You seem to have wrapped youself somuch in the life of a mary sue fictional character that you seem to have forgotten common courtesy to REAL PEOPLE.


    It seems to me that you cant accept the fact that someone dissagrees with you. Guess what. Euphie was a minor character, destined to die from the start. She did not die because lelouch was evil. She did not die because she might have killed more people. she died because

    IT
    MADE
    GOOD
    TV!!!


    Drama drama drama. Code Geass was a DRAMA. I dont know how old you are but you OBVIOUSLY werent mature enough to handle it. You give a bad name to anime fans everywhere with your obsession. So GROW UP and GET OVER IT.

    She's

    NOT REAL


    She's

    D E A D

    Have a nice day, k?

    No. It made bad tv.

    How can it make good tv to concentrate 90 percent of the goodness of all of the characters in one single character, and kill that character halfway through the show? How can there be suspense when the worst thing which can possibly happen to any or all of the characters has alrady happened, when nothing signifiantly good or bad can happen to the few remaining good cast members that can significantly inceasse or decease the overall evilness of all the events in the series?

    And if the producers seriously intended for the audience to have any sympathy for Lelouch after he senselessly killed Euphemia, then episodes 22 and 23 may be amoung the most evil television episodes ever produced.

  19. #144
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    ...Look, you are literally making assumptions here. Fantasizing, too. Er...it IS a fact that Euphemia was an object of lesbian affection, if you do want to go on. No, in fact stop going on and on; save all Code Geass fans here the trouble.
    Here are my points (you can choose to agree or disagree, I'm sure you'll choose the latter; I simply cannot be bothered about you anymore.):
    Let me put your pompous speech to an end. If not, I shall endeavour to have you banned, as many others have.
    Quote: [You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry.]
    I'm sorry, dear, but this ain't your thread and we're not inclined to listen to you. And anyone could tell that you're not sorry at all.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote: I am basically annoyed at the death of Euphemia because it is so obvious that Lelouch could have captured her alive just as safely and easily as he killed her, and once he was captured she could be confined where she wouldn't be much danger to anyone. Thus she was murdered, and you code geass fans refuse to admit that what you saw was a murder..

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Take your annoyance somewhere else, you annoy us the most. Like most of us have tried to tell you; you know by now that it isn't appreciated here, nor is it going to be in the near future. Sense here: Why would Lelouch allow himself to be captured? He still has a lot of plans to carry out. Yes, it was a murder. Yes, he has murdered lots of people in cold blood. And yes, the producers planned it that way.
    Here you let a typo mislead you about what I meant. I wrote "once he was captured " when I meant "once she was captured", meaning that Euphemia would not be dangerous once she was captured and confined, And you thought that I was talking about when Lelouch would be captured.

    So you admit that Lelouch murdered Euphemia? And that he murdered a lot of other people in cold blood? Then why are you making a fuss about my efforts to persuade you that lelouch murdered Euphemia and a lot of other people? Why don't you simply reply "yes I know that Lelouch murdered a lot of people and and the only reason I forced myself to watch the show until the end was in the hope of seeing him finally get the punishment that he deserves,and I felt let down by the ending in which he sacrificed himself willingly in a noble but futile effort to make up for all the evil that he did."?

    Why do you instead act like I am writing blasphemy?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Quote: Wolfgirl90 kept insisting, as you just did, that Euphemia had to be killed because she might escape and kill someone. Anybody in the whole world might someday kill someone. Do you or I have a written guarantee from God almighty saying that we will never kill anybody? No.

    Any one of your enemies who is already fighting you might kill some of your people and comrades sometime in the future. The only way to certainly prevent that would be to kill all your enemies, slaughter them ruthlessly, show no mercy, exterminate them without pity, and commit all kinds of war crimes that will make you one of the most evil people in history.

    But someone who is now neutral or even on your side might join the enemy side in the future and kill some of your comrades. If you are a warrior, even you might change sides in the future and kill some of the people you now fight to protect. There will always be at least a slight chance that you will someday kill someone that you now love.


    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Yes, and that is why Euphemia had to be killed. I hope you understand it now, 'cause you sure ain't getting the point like the rest of us do, that she literally turned evil (went over to the enemy side, in a way. How she do contradict herself under control of the Geass). Are you (a) so obsessed or (b) so dense that you cannot see this point? Well, which one is it?
    Euphemia did not turn evil. Her body was taken over by an evil spirit or a hypnotic command or something that forced her to do what it wanted to. She was an innocent bystander. No innocent bystander has to be killed if the killer can be stopped just as soon and safely without killing the innocent bystander. Nobody would insist on killing a killer instead of capturing him alive if capturing him also meant sparing the life of a innocent bystander.

    You say Euphemia went over to the enemy and had to be killed. Are you saying that every member of the enemy has to be killed? If so you are wrong. it is never right for a soldier or warrior to kill an enemy soldier, warrior, or leader if it would be just as safe for the people on his side to let that enemy escape or to capture him alive.

    Lelouch obviously could have captured Euphemia alive in perfect safety to himself and to all the Japanese, and it would have been just as fast and just as easy as killing her was. Therefore Euphemia did not have to be killed. In fact she had to be not killed. She had to be captured and not killed, since letting her go free would be dangerous to her and to the Japanese people.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote: During the French and Indian War George Washington was a loyal British subject who fought alongside the king's soldiers and never dreamed that he and they would ever become enemies. A dozen years after the end of the war Washington found himself the commander of the rebel army seeking to defeat and kill some of his former comrades that he would have given his life for fifteen or twenty years earlier.

    Robert E. Lee and hundreds of officers from the South were loyal to the United States and fought alongside officers from the North in the Mexican War and on the frontier. They never believed that they would ever fight against the United States or their fellow officers. But eventually Robert E Lee and hundreds of other Southern officers did join the Confedracy and fight against their old country.

    You can not totally trust anyone to always be loyal to the people and causes that you are loyal to now, not even you yourself. So the only way to prevent anyone from ever killing anyone you now wish to protect is to kill everyone in the world, including those you wish to protect and you yourself, in order to be absolutely certain that nobody will kill them in the future!

    That does not make sense. And it does not make sense to kill everyone who might possibly kill someone in the future. If an enemy can be captured safely and confined with a reasonable expectation they will never escape to kill some of your people, you have to take them prisoner instead of killing them. You can't worry that they might escape and kill somebody on your side and use that as an excuse to kill them instead of capturing them.


    Throughout history, countless men and and women and children have been killed by evil people who used the slight possibillity that they might be dangerous to people on their side as an excuse to kill them. It is a crime to worry so much about someone's potential danger that you kill them when you can capture them alive with ease.

    If Euphemia was locked up with reasonable security she would be less dangerous than any of countless thousands and millions of rebels and soldiers in the world who were free and armed and might be given and obey orders to massacre.


    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    I shall excuse your blatant misuse of History. By the way, in case you really, really haven't got it into your thick head, was killed AFTER she ordered the massacre. It wasn't because of the possibility of it happening, the possibility that she would kill someone, but because of the fact that she had already slaughtered thousands of elevens.
    And please make sense. No-one would have been able to restrain her, anyway, because of the royal guard. Do you think that they would have allowed that to happen? Besides, she already gave them orders to kill the Elevens.
    I said that if Euphemia was captured alive she could have been restrained and there would have been very little chance that she would ever kill someone after being captured . The chance that she would kill someone once she was captured and restrained would be too small to make it right to kill her to prevent it, since everyone who is free has a probability of killing someone in the future that is much greater than that of a homicidal maniac who is properly restrained and guarded, no matter how many people that homicidal maniac killed before being captured.

    I know that Euphemia already killed "thousands" of elevens as you estimate the numbers. I meant that when Lelouch was face to face with Euphemia and had the choice of ending her rampage by killing her or by taking her prisoner, it would have been wrong, and was wrong, to chose to end the rampage by killing her instead of taking her prisoner. Because if she was a prisoner there would be very little chance that she would kill anyone else in the future, after the moment when Lelouch still could have decided to take her prisoner.

    And why do you say the royal guard would not have let Euphemia be restrained? Were the Britannian soldiers at the Fuji Massacre part of the Royal Guard, or were they members of ordinary line units?

    Anyway the Britannian soldiers at Fuji would have let Euphemia be restrained. They did let her be killed. They couldn't help it. Euphemia ordered all the units to chase the fleeing Japanese and shoot them down. Since the Japanese were fleeing in all directions the Britannians had to chase them in all directions and get farther and farther apart from each other. Euphemia probably realized that scattering her troops would make it easy for an hypothetical attacker to pick them off one by one, but the geass command probably forced her to use the tactic that would kill the most Japanese people before Cornelia arrived on the scene and took control and stopped the irrational massacre.

    Suppose there had been a few Britannian soldiers with machine guns hiding nearby as the dreaded rebel leader Zero walked toward their Princess Euphemia. Wouldn't they have riddled Lelouch with bullets? And if there had been one or more nightmares on the scene Zero might have been blasted to atoms by a cannon blast as soon as he set foot on the ground.

    And what do you mean that Euphemia had already ordered the soldiers to kill? If she could give orders she could cancel them. If an ordinary person was captured and tortured they might be very quick to cancel any order you wanted them to cancel. Of course, Euphemia was controlled by a geass command, but there might be ways to get even someone controlled by a geass command to cancel an order dictated by it.

    Suppose Lelouch gave Euphemia and the geass command the choice between instant death and calling off the massacre and becoming his executioner, occasionally being allowed to kill Japanese people that Lelouch wanted to execute? They might accept that dubious offer as the better of two choices, no matter how little faith they had that Lelouch would actually let them kill very often..

    Or Lelouch could transmit a video of the captured Euphemia on the Britannian command frequencies, and then demand that the Britannians stop the massacre to save her life.

    Or if Lelouch noticed that Euphemia was no longer looking for Japanese people to kill, seemingly ignoring or unaware of the geass command to kill Japanese people, he could hope that she would come out of the control of the geass command enough to willingly order a stop to the massacre.

    I don't know if no Japanese people were killed by Euphemia's soldiers after Lelouch shot her, or tens of Japanese, or hundreds, or thousands of Japanese. But Lelouch did not try to use Euphemia as a hostage to stop the massacre. Therefore he was guilty of killing any and all of the Japanese who may have been killed at Fuji after he might have stopped the massacre by using Euphie as a hostage.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ZE=4] Quote:
    If Euphemia was captured and confined she would be less dangerous than any free preson.

    Take any person who is free. such as myself, proEephie, or Wolfgirl90, or xRiikox, or Alkazor, or anyone who is free. Anyone who is free can acquire a weapon, such as a gun, a knife, a club, etc., and kill someone if he or she decides to Or they could kill some one without a weapon, by pushing them off a balcony, or something. If a particular society has a murder rate of one per ten thousand per year, or one per one hundred thousand per year, or one per a million per year, then a native of that society would have a good chance of being murdered if he lived to be ten thousand, or a hundred thousand, or a million.

    But there must be a murderer for every victim, although not an exact equal number of murderers and victims. So if you lived for ten thousand years, or one hundred thousand years, or a million years, depending on the crime rate in the (mostly far future) society you would live in, you will have a good chance of becoming a murderer at least once. Of course the more evil someone is the more likely he will be to commit murder, so we would all like to believe that we are among the more innocent group and thus less likely to commit murder. But most (though not all) murderers also like to think that they are in the more innocent group and less likely to commit murder, at some points in their lives before they actually do kill.

    A lot of murderers are the kind of person that everyone who knew them expected to kill someone someday. But a lot of murderers do not seem very scary until they are accused. It is a cliche for the neighbors of a killer to say that he was such a nice quiet man who never gave any trouble. And many of them may have fooled themselves into believing they were good and innocent almost as long as they fooled the neighbors.

    A stranger might calculate that any one of us might have a one in a million to one in a thousand chance of ever becoming a murderer, despite our beliefs that we are especially innocent.

    If it is right to kill Euphemia because of the threat she would pose even in confinement it is even more right to kill any free person such as proEuphie, or +Namiko+ or wolfgirl90 because of the even bigger threat that any free person poses. If it is wrong to kill Blackrosetwilight or Akazor or wolfgirl90 or xRiikox or any other random free person because of the tiny, insignificant, threat he poses it is even more wrong to kill Euphemia because of the even smaller threat she would pose if captured and confined.

    Anyway, Wolfgirl90 also wrote that since Euphemia could not be cured of the geass she would go crazy trying to find Japanese people to kill while she was confined. Wolfgirl90 imagined that Euphemia would foam at the mouth and rave like a raving lunatic in her frustration at not being able to kill Japanese people.



    [/SIZE]
    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    Ahhh. Simply Amazing. You are the first person I have met (albeit online) who would so literally drag an anime into real life, and aim it at real-life people. Unfortunately, I do not think the anime world of Code Geass should be abused this way by you. What has happened has happened, I give you sound advice: get over it. I suppose you would verily bleed your heart out, or die, if Euphemia was killed. Oh, but brilliant, she has been, and you're still alive, aren't you? Don't give me some crap about how your poor heart bleeds for her or how you sobbed your pitiful eyes out at her funeral. Euphemia is a nice character, don't make me hate her. Your delusion has nothing to do with Wolfgirl, because she is not like you are, she is a nice and normal person, not like you.
    I don't know how to judge the ethics of a anime character except by the same standards which I use to judge the ethics of real people. So I have to drag Code geass into the real world or the real world into Code Geass.

    Let us use another hypothetical example from the real world. Suppose that person A, a citizen of country B, learned that person C was a citizen of country D.

    Suppose that person A thought:"I estimate that there is a one percent chance that Country D and my country, B, will go to war in the next ten years. In that time person C might join the armed forces of country D and kill some of my countrymen during the war which has a one percent chance of breaking out. Therefore I should kill person C now to prevent that small chance that he might someday kill some of my countrymen?"

    Wouldn't you agree that it would be senseless for person A to kill person C because of that line of reasoning? The one percent probability of war between the two countries, combined with the low probability that a specific citizen of Country D would join the armed forces of that country before or during the war, and combined with the small probability that any individual member of the armed forces of country D would kill one or more citizens of Country B during the war, combine to make the danger from person C very, very small. So Small that it would be senseless to kill person C to prevent that small danger to his countrymen.

    And yet the chance that person C would kill natives of country B during a war sometime in the next ten years would probably be much greater than the probability that any specific person would ever kill anybody in the future. At least if person A estimated the chances of war between the two countries correctly.

    So if it would be unreasonable for person A to kill person C, then it would be even more unreasonable to kill any random person, such as myself or you, or my example wolfgirl90, because of the even smaller possibility that they would ever kill anyone.

    And if it would be wrong to kill any random free person, such as you or myself or wolfgirl90, because of the tiny possibility that they might take advantage of their freedom to kill someone in the future, then it would be even more wrong to kill someone who could be captured and confined, because of the even tinier possibility that a confined person might break out of confinement to kill someone.

    It would be wrong and senseless for person A to kill person C. It would be even more wrong and senseless to kill any randomly selected free person, such as you, myself, or my example wolfgirl90, because of the even tinier chance that they might kill someone in the future. And it would be even more wrong still and more senseless still to kill Euphemia instead of capturing her, since the probability of her killing someone while confined would be even less than that of any random free person killing someone.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Quote:
    And after all the arguments pros and cons I am more convinced than ever that Euphemia defeated her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch and again in the sickbay. And thus she would not have been dangerous and would not have suffered.

    But even if my opponents are right that Euphemia did not escape from the control of the geass, her behavior during the periods when I think she was free from the geass control has to be explained. If the geass did control her, how is that consistent with the idea of her being constantly dangerous while controlled by the geass, or suffering if she couldn't find any Japanese people to kill?

    If Euphemia was still controlled by the geass while talking to Lelouch, and in the sickbay, then the geass was not a slave driver but an easygoing master that did not demand excessive effort from those it controlled.

    So Euphemia would not have been very dangerous in confinement, and she would not have suffered much from her failure to find victims.

    Wolfgirl90 believes that Lelouch killed Euphemia for evil motives but her death was a good thing because of the danger she might possibly kill someone and because she might suffer from captivity and the stress of not being able to satisfy the geass command. I think that the discussions of Euphemia's behavior during the periods that I think she was free from the geass shows that she would not have been very dangerous in confinement and that she would not have suffered very much, whether she escaped from the geass or not.

    Therefore wolfgirl90 was wrong and killing Euphemia was not a good thing, but even less good than she believes that killing herself, wolfgirl90, would be.
    [/SIZE]

    Quote Originally Posted by xRiikox View Post
    I think you have got it wrong. We are NOT discussing if killing Euphemia was a good thing or not. We are discussing if Euphemia escaped from the control of the Geass she was under before she died; read the thread title, please. We were not your 'opponents', as you so pleasantly state. In the first place, we did not want a debate. You started one. By the abuse you always recieve, shouldn't you get the point into your THICK HEAD already that no-one wants you in the Code Geass forum (or any other forum, actually) unless you change? But I think that's pretty much a lost cause now.

    It's okay if you want everyone to hate you, [in fact, we already do] but do stop spamming. Many people have probably told you this, right? Thus your rapidly declining reputation that cannot be reduced any more than it is. I wonder what people think of you in real life; do they cover their ears when you come near? Ah well, I rest my case. It is absolutely typical of you to drag your conflict from another of your threads into this one, and then critisize anyone who has a different opinion. Arigatou gozaimashita.
    I call you my oponents because I think of you as the opposing side in a debate and thus opponents. I do not mean that in the sense of enemies or foes.

    I am discussing whether it was right to kill Euphemia. I claim that it is obviously better to capture someone alive than to kill them if they can be captured safely and easily. Since Euphemia obviously could have been captured safely and easily that should be the end of the matter.

    But some of the posters in this forum have claimed that since Euphemia would be controlled by the geass for the rest of her life she had to be killed, because of the danger that even a confined person might kill somebody in the future, and because her hypothetical suffering from the pressure of the geass command while she was a prisoner would hypothetically make her suffer a lot during confinement.

    Therefore I planned a two pronged rsponse to that opinion.
    1) I would remind them that a person, no matter how homicidal they may, who is confined with good security has much less chance of ever escaping to kill someone than any randomly selected free person has ofkilling somone in the future. And I would point out that Euphemiia's suffering was hypothetical and it is unwise to justify killing someone on the basis of a hypothetical guess that they might conceivably be better off dead under some future circumstances. After all, anyone who ever wants to kills omeone could claim and perhaps convince himself that his intended victim would be better off dead for some reason, no matter how happy that intended victim actually is.

    2) And i would try to find evidence that Euphemia escaped from the control of her geass command enough to no longer seek Japanese victims (which would be enough of an escape from their point of view) and enough to no longer remember the massacre clearly by the time that Lelouch Shot her.

    Thus I created this thread. This thread may be devoted to a technical issue but it is part of alarger discussion whether there was any justification for killing Euphemia.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-28-2009 at 12:50 AM.

  20. #145
    Senior Member +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+'s Avatar
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    Quote: "No. It made bad tv.

    How can it make good tv to concentrate 90 percent of the goodness of all of the characters in one single character, and kill that character halfway through the show? How can there be suspense when the worst thing which can possibly happen to any or all of the characters has alrady happened, when nothing signifiantly good or bad can happen to the few remaining good cast members that can significantly inceasse or decease the overall evilness of all the events in the series?

    And if the producers seriously intended for the audience to have any sympathy for Lelouch after he senselessly killed Euphemia, then episodes 22 and 23 may be amoung the most evil television episodes ever produced."

    AAND

    Quote: "I don't know how to judge the ethics of a anime character except by the same standards which I use to judge the ethics of real people. So I have to drag Code geass into the real world or the real world into Code Geass."


    Ok. you want to drag this isto the real world? Then here's something you havent figured out.


    LIFE ISNT FAIR


    BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE ALL THE TIME


    NICE INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE ABUSED AND KILLED.


    THIS IS REALITY.


    And yes, it made very good TV by adding to the DRAMA which YOU CANT SEEM TO HANDLE. And please stop refering to us as your opponents. That is completely irritating.

    GET OVER IT.

    Code Geass was basically a 60 episode long Pizza Hut commerical that decided to TORTURE one human being to see how much he could take. That person was LELOUCH. Do you honestly think he WANTED to kill Euphie? He CRIED into C.C.s ARMS after he did it!! He LOVED her! OK!?!??! He had his REASONS. And he even

    SACRIFICED HIMSELF TO AVENGE HER!!!!!!!
    SO GET OVER IT! HE'S NOT HITLER.

    Lelouch is portrayed brilliantly as one of the best tactical minds in history, but if you think you know better than him, then have fun in your fantasy world.


    Fatal Frame II




    Because Friendship is MAGIC!

  21. #146
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    Quote: "No. It made bad tv.

    How can it make good tv to concentrate 90 percent of the goodness of all of the characters in one single character, and kill that character halfway through the show? How can there be suspense when the worst thing which can possibly happen to any or all of the characters has alrady happened, when nothing signifiantly good or bad can happen to the few remaining good cast members that can significantly inceasse or decease the overall evilness of all the events in the series?

    And if the producers seriously intended for the audience to have any sympathy for Lelouch after he senselessly killed Euphemia, then episodes 22 and 23 may be amoung the most evil television episodes ever produced."

    AAND

    Quote: "I don't know how to judge the ethics of a anime character except by the same standards which I use to judge the ethics of real people. So I have to drag Code geass into the real world or the real world into Code Geass."


    Ok. you want to drag this isto the real world? Then here's something you havent figured out.


    1) LIFE ISNT FAIR


    BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE ALL THE TIME


    NICE INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE ABUSED AND KILLED.


    THIS IS REALITY.


    2) And yes, it made very good TV by adding to the DRAMA which YOU CANT SEEM TO HANDLE. 3) And please stop refering to us as your opponents. That is completely irritating.

    GET OVER IT.

    4) Code Geass was basically a 60 episode long Pizza Hut commerical that decided to TORTURE one human being to see how much he could take. That person was LELOUCH. 5) Do you honestly think he WANTED to kill Euphie? 6) He CRIED into C.C.s ARMS after he did it!! He LOVED her! OK!?!??! 5) He had his REASONS. And he even

    7) SACRIFICED HIMSELF TO AVENGE HER!!!!!!!
    SO GET OVER IT! 8) HE'S NOT HITLER.

    9) Lelouch is. portrayed brilliantly as one of the best tactical minds in history, but if you think you know better than him, then have fun in your fantasy world
    1) Life isn't fair. So people should try to be fair to compensate for it. And a lot of people are not fair, so the rest should try to be even fairer to compensate. And we should make heroes out of people who try to be fair, not those who do things which are obviously unfair.

    And yes I know that bad things happen to good people. I read a lot of history. I have a joke that the reason that I am interested in history is because I like horror stories. But I have never read anything in history which convinces me that good people can do bad things to good people. I say that doing bad things to good people always makes someone a bad person. No matter how many examples of historic characters that you think are good despite their doing bad things to good people you may throw at me, I will always claim that they were evil despite your opinion that they were good.

    I am quite prepared to say that everyone of the one hundred thousand most famous people in history was evil, except for some of the ones who were children, if you want to try to convince me that the most revered heroes in history did bad things to good people but were not evil.

    2) And how can killing Euphemia add to the drama? The only way it would add to the drama would be if the main plot of the second season turned out to be Suzaku's quest to get justice or revenge on Lelouch, with the grand climax of the series being the final bloody confrontation between Suzaku and Lelouch. But instead Euphemia's death was just another sensational plot twist which the characters who seemed most motivated to avenge would conveniently ignore whenever the requirements of the plot made it necessary. And thus it was a meaningless bit of unnecessary violence.

    3) I refer to you as my opponents because I thought that the general trend of this thread is a debate between the supporters of two different opinions.

    4) And what to you mean that Lelouch suffered a lot during the series? What about Suzaku?

    He certainly suffered a lot more from the death of Euphemia than Lelouch did. For the whole year between the first and second seasons Lelouch did not remember anything from his past life and thus did not feel any guilt, remorse, or regret, for killing Euphemia. He even believed the official Brittannian story that she had ordered the massacre and been executed by the imperial government. If he ever thought about her it was as a notorious criminal who got what she deserved.

    While Suzaku, depending on how much he loved Euphemia, would not have let a day, or maybe an hour, go by without thinking of her with sorrow. I wonder how many times during that year he cursed himself for obediently bringing Lelouch back alive, instead of torturing hm to death in bloody vengeance.

    Suzaku turned out to be so great a failure at the whole "get bloody vengeance on those who kill your loved ones" thing that eventually he had to become a henchman of his enemy, helping him in his plans in return for the promise of being able to kill him when he wanted to be killed. People who want revenge on their enemies all agree its no fun to kill them when they want you to do it.

    And I think that Nunnally suffered more than Lelouch from their separation for a year between the first and second seasons, since Lelouch could not even remember that he had a sister Nunnally.

    And for the year between the first and second seasons, which probably lasted much longer than both seasons combined, Lelouch was punished for rebellion, treason, and murder by living the life of a wealthy, popular, high school student. What a fiendish punishment! What cruelty! How barbaric!

    5) Lelouch pointed a gun at Euphemia's torso, packed with vital organs, and pulled the trigger. Since he could have captured her alive with no danger to himself, and she could have be confined with less chance of ever killing someone than you or I have, I kind of get the impression that for some unknown reason he wanted to kill Euphemia.

    You say that Lelouch had his reasons for killing Euphemia. It seems obvious to me that he could have captured her alive such as safely, just as fast, and just as easy as he killed her. And capturing her and confining her would have ended her danger to others just as well as killing her. So how could there be any imaginable good reasons for killing her?

    Perhaps the reason why Lelouch cried about killing Euphemia was that he realized that he had given into his evil impulses and deliberately killed an innocent person when he had no need to.

    6) Lelouch's defenders make a lot about his grief and regret about killing Euphie. Almost every human being, good or evil, feels at least a little bit of grief, sorrow, regret, and guilt over killing another person, no matter how justified they think that killing was.

    In Oliver Twist Bill Sykes intentionally murdered Nancy. But even though he wanted to kill her, when she was dead he was filled with grief and sorrow over what he had done. He walked all through the night, not noticing where he went, just feeling his guilt and sorrow. He walked from London Bridge to Hatfield, eighteen miles in a straight line and more as he wandered, and back to central London in a daze caused by his regret and guilt.

    And many real murderers have felt just as much guilt and sorrow and vain regret as Bill Sykes, and not been any less guilty for it.

    In some of my posts I have mentioned that my grandfather once cried with guilt over shooting a pheasant. He displayed almost as much grief over killing a bird as Lelouch did over killing Euphemia. And my grandfather was not just a peaceful, kind, sensitive civilian, but also a war hero, killing and capturing several enemy soldiers at the age of eighteen. No doubt some of the relatives of those he killed and captured would have thought that he was way too bold, aggressive, and brutal, and not nearly kind, gentle, and sensitive enough for them.

    I say that the grief that my grandfather showed for killing a bird was much closer to being appropiate and normal than the grief that Lelouch showed for killing Euphemia.

    7) You say that Lelouch sacrificed himself to avenge Euphemia. In other posts you say that he sacrificed himself to save the world. It seems to me that unless his reason for having himself be killed was at least 75 percent guilt over Euphemia and no more than 25 percent an effort to save the world, it would not be right to say flatly that he sacrificed himself to avenge Euphemia, because saving the world would seem to have the highest possible priority in most people's minds.

    Suppose that Lelouch did sacrifice himself mainly to avenge Euphemia. But a man who murders someone and eventually commits suicide to atone for it is less good than his other self in an alternate universe where he is tempted to commit that murder but decides not to, and lets the intended victim live.

    8) Lelouch was not Hitler? Is that how you defend him?

    Well, Genghis Khan was not Hitler, but that doesn't make him good. Some people say that he and his followers must have been even more evil than Hitler and the Nazis, to murder at least as many people face to face instead of sending them off to the death camps to be killed out of sight. And Stalin was not Hitler or Genghis khan, but some people believe that he was more evil than either of them.

    Tamerlane was not Hitler, or Stalin, or Genghis Khan, but some people have called him the most evil leader in History.

    So I could grant you that Lelouch was no Hitler, no Stalin, no Tamerlane, no Genghis Khan, but what would that prove? That he was not as bad as the top ten most evil people in history? That would still make it possible that he was as bad as one of the the top one hundred most evil people in history, or one of the thousand most evil people in history, or one of the ten thousand most evil people in history, etc.

    If you claim, and prove, that Lelouch was not as evil as Hitler, you still have a long, long, long, long, long way to go to prove that he was so very, very, very, very, very much better than Hitler than he was a good person and not an evil person.

    9) You say that: "Lelouch is. portrayed brilliantly as one of the best tactical minds in history, but if you think you know better than him, then have fun in your fantasy world"

    Lelouch is not portrayed brilliantly as one of the great tactical minds in history. The writers and producers of the series would have to brilliant tacticians themselves to consistently imagine brilliant tactics for him (and thus they would be in the wrong occupation). Some of the tactics they imagined for Lelouch make him seem a lot more brilliant than others do.

    And even the most famous and respected generals in history have had their tactics questioned by historians who claim that alternate strategies would have been better. If you believe all the criticisms made of even the greatest general in history he would seem pretty dumb. And if only about, for example, ten percent of the criticisms are justified that would still mean that even the greatest generals in history often make mistakes. If any of our, no doubt few, readers ever go into battle, they should remember that even the most brilliant generals such as they hope their generals will be, sometimes make stupid mistakes.

    I say that not killing people that you personally know are wonderfully innocent unless you absolutely, positively have to do so to save other innocent lives is a pretty obvious rule. Lelouch clearly could have captured Euphemia alive just as fast, just as easy, and just a safely as he killed her. And capturing and confining Euphemia would be just as safe for the Japanese as killing her, and a lot better for her. So I can't see any imaginable good reason for killing her.

    And I can't imagine that any general could be so brilliant as to see a good reason for killing Euphemia that escapes me. That would be like imagining that someone would be so smart he could prove that red is blue, for example.

    And even if Lelouch had consistently been just as brilliant a tactician in twenty seasons or two hundred seasons as he was in two, his reputation as a great general would not be strong enough to make me say that he must have had a good reason that I am too dumb to recognize. Not when killing Euphemia is so obviously senseless.

    You say that Lelouch sacrificed himself to avenge Euphemia's death. If so, he made a big mistake killing her for no good reason, since that murder eventually caused his own death which he could have avoided by not murdering her.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 12-14-2009 at 12:38 AM.

  22. #147
    Perverted Kitty of Doom lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx has a reputation beyond repute lilminx's Avatar
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    this thread is going on for ages >.<

    but i still wanted to reply to the question. euphemia did not escape from her geass before lelouch shot her BUT she did manage to do something similar to that during her last few minutes.with the help of her love for suzaku....
    you can't call me weird, cause im unique ^_^
    btw if youre going to admire me, please tell me who you are, gracias


    siggy by teddy thankies ^^


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  23. #148
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Gamertag: DisturbedWiccan PSN ID: Wolfdragon63 Steam ID: Wolfgirl90

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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I point out that:

    1) she was not doing anything to obey the geass when Lelouch shot her despite your claim that she could hear living Japanese people screaming for mercy and thus asking to be killed if she was still controlled by the geass,

    2) She didn't react to the knowledge that the Black Knights had just attacked her which she would have known if she remembered everything due to still being controlled by the geass,

    3) In the sickbay she was still strong enough to kill and thus she must have defeated the geass command.

    And you just say that she could not possibly defeat her geass command based on what is known about geass from the first and second seasons.

    I say that Euphemia defeating her geass command is an important part of the total evidence about how geass works, and may have been written into the series with that intention. You may say that other evidence proves that Humans can not defeat geass commands and that even the gods can not resist geass commands. But that merely proves that Euphemia and Nunnally, who resisted and defeated geass, are in that respect higher than humans and the gods.
    The problem with your "points" is that they are all pure speculation. Those actions NEVER occurred and thus, cannot be accounted for and answered and, like I told you before, just because a question cannot answered does not mean that it is a question that proves your point (the best things those questions are are plot holes, but again, they do not prove ANYTHING; take it up with the writers if it bothers you so much).

    Again, Code Geass is a cartoon, a show that runs on a script and a very limited universe. It does not involve real actions or real people. Because of this, any action that DOES NOT occur in the series itself can not be used as proof of anything. Why didn't Euphemia kill Suzaku in the sickbay? Because it was NOT IN THE SCRIPT! End of story. That is the ONLY reason why this did not occur (short of it making absolutely no sense whatsoever). It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Geass (which you can't really argue about anyway, since you are missing more than half a series worth of information about the Geass). Unless you give me evidence of actions that ACTUALLY occurred in the series, rather than speculation of events that never even occurred, then your argument is moot. And again, the burden of proof lies on you, not me. It is YOUR job to show me evidence of Euphemia breaking the Geass; its NOT my job to break through your nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Wolfgirl90 once wrote that she is in the military. If so, the slight but real potential danger that she might be ordered to take part in a terrible massacre and obey those orders is greater than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia. If Euphemia should be killed instead of captured because of her potential danger to others, wolfgirl90 should be killed to end the danger she represents, which is very small but much larger than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia..

    But Wolfgirl90 does not believe that she is so dangerous that she should be killed to end that danger, even though she is obviously more dangerous than Euphemia would be if confined.
    Hehe...proEuphie, once again, if you are going to talk about me, talk DIRECTLY to me. Otherwise, you are going to bring up something about me that you know little about (and you barely know me to begin with).

    While insubordination carries a very severe punishment in the military, we are not allowed to take part in civilian massacres, even if the massacre was ordered by our commanding officer. That goes against our Code of Conduct, my personal moral code, and effectively violates any other international law you can think of (its called a war crime for a reason, genius). If we believe that an order goes against any Code or law, we are allowed to not follow that order (though we will have to explain ourselves).

    Euphemia was not merely a "potential" danger to others: she was ALREADY a danger to others, since she just killed a large number of people and was still in the process of killing said people. As it stands now, yes, I am certainly a lesser danger than a blood-thirsty girl shooting off bullets in every other direction. And IF I was in the same position, while I would certainly like someone to save my life, if there was no other way, I would rather be shot than continue to take the lives of others.

    Also, I will give you the opportunity to edit a certain part of your post before taking action against you. I am more than certain that suggesting my DEATH on the imaginary grounds that I could commit an unjustified homicide because of my weapons training (Really? Come on, now...), and suggesting it more than once, can get your little butt banned from this site.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Anyway, Wolfgirl90 also wrote that since Euphemia could not be cured of the geass she would go crazy trying to find Japanese people to kill while she was confined. Wolfgirl90 imagined that Euphemia would foam at the mouth and rave like a raving lunatic in her frustration at not being able to kill Japanese people.
    This was not something I "imagined". It was based off of the fact that the girl who drew the crosses on the walls at Ashford went nuts when she was sent back home to Pendragon and pretty much lost her mind (for lack of a better word) when she could not perform the command of the Geass. Because of this, I hypothesized that Euphemia would react the exact same way if she was confined in a cell.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But it is wrong to kill someone because you think that they will suffer if left alive. If they do suffer, suicide or death from old age will put an end to their suffering soon enough. Lelouch did not have the right to even think about how much Euphemia might possibly suffer if he did the right thing and took her prisoner, let alone decide that her hypothetical suffering would be worse than death.
    Depending on the person, yeah, death from old age and suicide would end the suffering of said person. HOWEVER, if the person is already suffering, suffice to say, I am not going to wait for them to die of old age to end their suffering, if they are going to suffer for years upon years rather than a quick death. If a person is going through severe, agonizing pain and trauma and there is nothing that can help him, why would I wait for his eventual death, which could occur between now and 40 years from now (and mind you, he will be suffering the ENTIRE TIME), when I could end his suffering now?

    Of course, Lelouch did not kill Euphemia to "end her suffering" (at least, that is not the principle reason). He killed her because it was the best thing he could do in order to turn the situation over to his side

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Therefore wolfgirl90 was wrong and killing Euphemia was not a good thing, but even less good than she believes that killing herself, wolfgirl90, would be.
    Has this argument about Euphemia suddenly turned into an argument against me? By the way, this would be fourth time that you have called me out in a post, rather than replying directly to me. Instead of acting like a person with a legitimate argument, you are now acting like a troll (and as you can tell by the medal under my avatar, I have an interesting knack for burning trolls).

    In case you haven't noticed, proEuphie, I am certainly not the only person arguing against you. The main one, yes (well, you turned me into the main one), but certainly not the only one. Are you trying to turn people against me or something? Or are you saying that since I am wrong, you must be right (by your rather convoluted reasoning based on speculations and total nonsense), despite evidence to the contrary given by everyone here?

    And yes, I think that Euphemia's death would be worth less than my own. Much less in fact. Why? Because Euphemia is CARTOON CHARACTER! Her "death" is an event that technically did not occur because she is not real. The fact that you are even comparing my real life to her fake one means that you do not have a very firm grasp on the value of a human life (or any life, for that matter), which is why you are more than comfortable talking about my DEATH or suggesting that I be KILLED because I disagree with you on the certain moral standards of dealing with the actions of a darn CARTOON CHARACTER!!

    Once again, I think you should either edit your post or reread what you said and apologize before I decide take action against you.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 08-25-2009 at 10:37 PM.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  24. #149
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    *highfive* :3
    yay n_n i feel special!
    If you like his response to my post you should read my post number 144 in which I respond to it.

  25. #150
    Senior Member +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+'s Avatar
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    Quote: "And how can killing Euphemia add to the drama? "
    Are you blind? Wait stupid question, why else would you have started this thread.

    Ummm...

    last time I checked, someone Dying adds to drama, which is kind of why all those people in Dramas, you know, DIE!?

    The point I am making, again and again and again, is that YOU dont seem to be able to handle it. You are obviously either way to young or way to immature to handle it. So go watch Kim Possible where no one dies and have fun.

    Quote: "If you like his response to my post you should read my post number 144 in which I respond to it."

    and if that was some attempt to be smart with me, dont, you WILL lose.


    You seem to be completely unaware that you sound like a five year old with a dictionary who just watched peter cottontail get shot.


    Anime characters are pawns to the producers of the show. Code geass was made to get money. The DEATH of a nice character made it more interesting and the twist was so unexpected that it made people wonder "what will happen next?"


    And yes, lelouch did suffer.
    He lost his mother,
    his fahter didnt want him and treated him like a political tool,
    hie BEST friend became his enemy
    his was forced to kill his sister and brother
    his father took nunally away
    he was left alone near the end of the series
    he was lead to beleive that nunally was dead, which tore him apart
    He discovered that his mother was actually a psycho that really didnt care much for him anyway
    His sister hated him despite the fact that every thing he had done was for her

    dont you TELL me that he didn't suffer as much as ANYONE on that show. no one even came close.



    You fail as an anime fan.


    Fatal Frame II




    Because Friendship is MAGIC!

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