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Thread: *SPOILERS* Did Euphie Escape...

  1. #226
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    sorry was going by the fact that mine was a little long and he already made a comment on proeuphie before my post.

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  2. #227
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    Let me resolve this before hand. I remembered you bringing this up when I posted about Anew on the Mecha Ethics board, so I looked back at this. I decided to post about this and resolve the fight about Gundam 00 on this thread. Let me tell you. Don't respond to this post. You can quote it and post it in the MECHA ETHICS board, or post it in the Gundam subforum (lol)

    So you seem to be saying that the original plan was to destroy the lab. Unless Allelujah and the rest of Celestrial being thought the lab was temporarily empty due to an intermission since the last class was "graduated" and before a new class was assembled, the plan to destroy the lab was what I would call evil.
    It was never explianed in the series if they could "graduate" since there were only two super soldiers in the series. Soma and Allelujah. I don't think it crossed their minds, or Veda's quantum processor because they recieve their orders and mission plans through a super computer.

    Doesn't Celestrial Being employ any old fashioned infantry? If they had any they could fly some in with a Gundam as an escort, send the infantry to defeat any guards, take everyone else prisoners back n the infantry's ship, and the gundam could blow up the lab.
    No, they don't.

    And if Celestrial Being doesn't have any infantry of its own it might be able borrow some from a friendly nation it has helped.
    None of the nations liked them. They attacked both sides most the time, so no one was friendly.

    Or even swoop down on an isolated enemy unit, threaten them with instant death unless they surrender, take a few as hostages, and send the rest to capture the lab and liberate the children and release them when they are done.
    That would have been far to dangerous for Meister they sent in. Not to mention, I can't imagine Veda recommending that.

    I don't see the complex conundrum.
    That's because you don't get it.

    Since it is obviously unwise to send someone emotionally involved on a mission the leaders of Infernal Being - I mean Celestrial Being -- should not have sent Allelujah on the mission. And if no other Gundam master except Allelujah could be induced to go then obviously destroying the lab which produced super soldiers did not seem like a high priority to anyone except Allelujah. And if so it was clearly not something worth killing even one child for.
    The only person who would have hesitated was Allelujah. He was actually the kindest one. You have
    Setsuna: Who's kindhearted, but let's not forget his was in a terrorist group when he was ten and even killed his own parents.
    Lockon: Who is the most mature one. To be honest, I don't know how'd he'd react.
    Tieria: Who would have killed them just because Veda said to.

    Terrorists or not, Celestrial Being seems too evil to be worthy protagonists of a story. And the same goes for the Black Knights and the Britannians (except for Euphemia) in Code Geass.
    If you'd actually watched the series, you'd know they were all good people. Well, except T-chan(Tieria) but he changes after episode 23.

    I don't understand why you try to look into the morals of shows. Why not just enjoy it.

    In Gundam 00 there are far worse characters. Like Ali-Al Saachez. He was the leader of the KPSA and made Setsuna kill his OWN parents and become a soldier telling him that God would not accept him unless he did this. He killed Lockon's family, or ordered their deaths. Kills an innocent girl in the series. Works for the bad guys in season 2 kills one of the best characters in season one. AND kills the only Innovator that's not PURE evil.
    Or maybe you could hate Ribbons Almark for being totally evil. Don't even get me started on the Trinities...

    Okay. Gundam time over. Code Geass time, resume.
    Last edited by Rolo Vi Britannia; 02-10-2010 at 10:39 PM.


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  3. #228
    Member Disciple-of-Jashin is a splendid one to behold Disciple-of-Jashin is a splendid one to behold Disciple-of-Jashin is a splendid one to behold Disciple-of-Jashin is a splendid one to behold Disciple-of-Jashin is a splendid one to behold Disciple-of-Jashin is a splendid one to behold Disciple-of-Jashin is a splendid one to behold Disciple-of-Jashin's Avatar
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    I always thought Euphemia was just close to death and Geass ends at death.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disciple-of-Jashin View Post
    I always thought Euphemia was just close to death and Geass ends at death.
    The Geass command always ends when it becomes impossible for the person to complete it. She was to weak to fight anymore, so it ended.
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  5. #230
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimi no kioku View Post
    The Geass command always ends when it becomes impossible for the person to complete it. She was to weak to fight anymore, so it ended.
    The view that Euphemia was too weak to kill and thus the geass ceased to control her has been obsolete for seven months, since my post # 68 above 08/01/09 and my post # 83 above 08/05/09.

    I think that I make a very strong case that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon in my post # 105 and 106, both dated 08/08/09 and on page # 5 of this thread. I believe that I make a very strong case that Euphemia defeated her geass command while talking to Lelouch before he shot her in my posts # 109 "When Ignorance Really Was Bliss" and # 112, both 08/09/09 and on page 5.

    My post # 110 "Do The Eyes Have It? # 2" 08/09/09 on page # 5 of this thread is also important.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 02-23-2010 at 09:30 PM.

  6. #231
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disciple-of-Jashin View Post
    I always thought Euphemia was just close to death and Geass ends at death.
    See my post # 230.

  7. #232
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kotomi Ichinose View Post
    Personally, I do not think Euphemia escaped the Geass until AFTER Lelouch shot her. The second after the bullet hit her, she realized what was going on. This is when she escaped the Geass, but not completely as it still somewhat effected her on her death bed.
    se my posts listed in my post # 230.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    The view that Euphemia was too weak to kill and thus the geass ceased to control her has been obsolete for seven months, since my post # 68 above 08/01/09 and my post # 83 above 08/05/09.
    Obsolete? You have yet to prove me or anyone else wrong about that, so don't go patting yourself on the back as if you have won anything (except the stupid troll medal).

    You say that Euphemia escaped the Geass before Lelouch shot her. However, the Geass took control of her while she was in the sickbay, three minutes before she died. One can't "escape the control of the Geass" without breaking it. Euphemia clearly didn't break it because the Geass CAME BACK while she was in the sickbay.

    Oh, and just because she didn't try to kill Suzaku while in the sickbay is NOT proof that she wasn't under the influence of the Geass (as she clearly was). She noticed that Suzaku was Japanese, realized what was happening (because of the horrible thoughts she was having) and either she pushed it back or the Geass faded (but she clearly didn't break the Geass before getting shot).

    There is already a rule that a Geass fades if one is not physically capable of carrying out the order (this has been established on more than a number of occasions, and is also listed in the Official Code Geass Guidebook as a rule for Lelouch's Geass). Being a couple of minutes away from DYING qualifies as something that might prevent someone from being physically capable from carrying out an order (or from doing anything other than talking in a very low whisper).

    Your move, troll.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 02-23-2010 at 10:24 PM.
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  9. #234
    Member Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch's Avatar
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    Seriously.
    lol, I'll probably bet down repped for this.

    HOLLOW LELOUCH

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow Lelouch View Post

    Seriously.
    lol, I'll probably bet down repped for this.
    By whom? You are pretty much on the same side of the fence as everybody else here; proEuphie is really all by herself.
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  11. #236
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    How come even before I went to this thread,I knew Proeuphie started this?

    Also,a big one-sided aguement came up?

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    The view that Euphemia was too weak to kill and thus the geass ceased to control her has been obsolete for seven months, since my post # 68 above 08/01/09 and my post # 83 above 08/05/09.
    Wow. You sound so incredibly arrogant there.

    And I think it should be obvious that when a character defeating Geass makes for a dramatic effect that adds to the series, the writers would put it in there. But when they want her to still be under the Geass for the sake of consistency, that will also be in there. Even if the two would alternate over and over - because making a good show that people will watch would be their first concern.

    ...And by the way, it is obvious that she only comes out of it when she can't kill anymore.

    I think that I make a very strong case that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon in my post # 105 and 106, both dated 08/08/09 and on page # 5 of this thread. I believe that I make a very strong case that Euphemia defeated her geass command while talking to Lelouch before he shot her in my posts # 109 "When Ignorance Really Was Bliss" and # 112, both 08/09/09 and on page 5.

    My post # 110 "Do The Eyes Have It? # 2" 08/09/09 on page # 5 of this thread is also important.
    But more importantly, where is your life, proE? Where is your life? Where is your life? If only Euphemia was here to save you.

  13. #238
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Oops! I accidentally erased the quote boxes.

    Dante K: "Wow. You sound so incredibly arrogant there.

    And I think it should be obvious that when a character defeating Geass makes for a dramatic effect that adds to the series, the writers would put it in there. But when they want her to still be under the Geass for the sake of consistency, that will also be in there. Even if the two would alternate over and over - because making a good show that people will watch would be their first concern."


    The episode seems to clearly show Euphemia defeating her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon.

    Dante K:"...And by the way, it is obvious that she only comes out of it when she can't kill anymore."

    No, it can't possibly be obvious that she only comes out of it when she can't kill anymore.

    Because Euphemia came out of it when she could still talk. Euphemia came out of it when she could still give orders that might be obeyed. Euphemia came out of it when she still had the power to order Suzaku killed. Euphemia came out of it when she still had the power to order the Avalon to destroy the nearest Japanese ghetto.

    The idea that Euphemia could only kill by physically picking up an gun and shooting people with it, or stabbing them, or strangling them, or punching and kicking them, or using her bodily physical force in any other way, is silly. Euphemia killed far more people by ordering other people to kill than by killing them herself.

    So I think that I made a major contribution by pointing out that people had just been assuming that the geass left Euphemia alone because she was too weak to strangle Suzaku to death, and that it was silly to ignore all the hundreds or thousands of people that she had killed by ordering other people to kill, and who the geass command remembered her killing that way.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-17-2010 at 10:32 PM.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Obsolete? You have yet to prove me or anyone else wrong about that, so don't go patting yourself on the back as if you have won anything (except the stupid troll medal).
    When can I expect delivery?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    You say that Euphemia escaped the Geass before Lelouch shot her. However, the Geass took control of her while she was in the sickbay, three minutes before she died. One can't "escape the control of the Geass" without breaking it. Euphemia clearly didn't break it because the Geass CAME BACK while she was in the sickbay.
    The title of my thread is "Did Euphemia Escape From the CONTROL of Her Geass Command Before Lelouch Shot Her?"

    I contend that Euphemia achieved a victory like Cannae or Austerlitz over her Geass Command right before Lelouch shot her and again in the sickbay of he Avalon. Those were less than absolutely total victories but still very great and decisive victories. Sure the geass command continued to fight back and try to regain control of Euphemia (thus her eyes were still red) in the seconds before Lelouch shot her. Yes the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia in the sickbay of the Avalon. But the power of the geass was no longer enough to make her do anything.

    I call that escaping from the control of the geass command.

    And if Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon with just seconds to spare before ordering Suzaku killed, that would be an incredibly fortunate coincidence. Unless it was not a coincidence. Unless it was inevitable that Euphemia would be able to defeate her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon by simply instantly remembering how she had defeated it earlier, after many minutes of subconscious struggle, right before Lelouch shot her.

    And as I pointed out months ago there is no proof that Nunnally's blindness geass did not try and fail to come back from time to time, or even that it might have sometimes succeeded for seconds or minutes at a time when Nunnally was off screen and after the series ended. But nobody would used that possibility to argue that Nunnaly failed to break her Blindness geass.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Oh, and just because she didn't try to kill Suzaku while in the sickbay is NOT proof that she wasn't under the influence of the Geass (as she clearly was). She noticed that Suzaku was Japanese, realized what was happening (because of the horrible thoughts she was having) and either she pushed it back or the Geass faded (but she clearly didn't break the Geass before getting shot).

    There is already a rule that a Geass fades if one is not physically capable of carrying out the order (this has been established on more than a number of occasions, and is also listed in the Official Code Geass Guidebook as a rule for Lelouch's Geass). Being a couple of minutes away from DYING qualifies as something that might prevent someone from being physically capable from carrying out an order (or from doing anything other than talking in a very low whisper).
    Being about to die might prevent someone from being physically able to break someone's neck with karate but it does not make them physically unable to command and kill.

    I quote my post # 238:

    No, it can't possibly be obvious that she only comes out of it when she can't kill anymore.

    Because Euphemia came out of it when she could still talk. Euphemia came out of it when she could still give orders that might be obeyed. Euphemia came out of it when she still had the power to order Suzaku killed. Euphemia came out of it when she still had the power to order the Avalon to destroy the nearest Japanese ghetto.

    The idea that Euphemia could only kill by physically picking up an gun and shooting people with it, or stabbing them, or strangling them, or punching and kicking them, or using her bodily physical force in any other way, is silly. Euphemia killed far more people by ordering other people to kill than by killing them herself.

    So I think that I made a major contribution by pointing out that people had just been assuming that the geass left Euphemia alone because she was too weak to strangle Suzaku to death, and that it was silly to ignore all the hundreds or thousands of people that she had killed by ordering other people to kill, and who the geass command remembered her killing that way.


    So you claim that in Britannia being unable to speak above a very low whisper disqualifies someone from being able to command? It seems to me that if a young and beautiful dying princess ordered a Britannian crew to slaughter some more Japanese people, something which apparently they enjoyed doing anyway, the feebleness of her voice as death neared would only make them more eager to obey her last orders and avenge her death on those who dared to be born into the same nationality that they assumed that her killer was a member of.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-17-2010 at 10:35 PM.

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    The title of my thread is "Did Euphemia Escape From the CONTROL of Her Geass Command Before Lelouch Shot Her?"
    No, it's actually:
    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie
    Did Euphemia escape from te controal of her geass before lelouch shote her?h
    I get this image of you frantically pounding the keys, in a panic, trying to post this. Asking this question is like asking: "if a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
    No one will be able or willing to answer it. What I noticed was that the doctors didn't even try to save Euphy, therefore it's THEIR FAULT SHE DIED!

    Expect proEuphie to post another thread about what I just said.

     
    I'm sorry, my fellow human beings, I just committed heresy



  16. #241
    Member Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch is a name known to all Hollow Lelouch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    By whom? You are pretty much on the same side of the fence as everybody else here; proEuphie is really all by herself.
    I've been to some forums where I was down repped for bashing trolls. By the ones fighting with the trolls for that matter!

    HOLLOW LELOUCH

  17. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow Lelouch View Post
    I've been to some forums where I was down repped for bashing trolls. By the ones fighting with the trolls for that matter!
    Seriously? That's pretty stupid.


    I have recently transformed into a defender of the mentally ill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

  18. #243
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    When can I expect delivery?
    Depends. Are you acknowledging that you are a stupid troll?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    The title of my thread is "Did Euphemia Escape From the CONTROL of Her Geass Command Before Lelouch Shot Her?"
    I am aware of the title. However, my point is that one can't escape the control of the Geass without breaking it. One might be able to resist the Geass for a bit, but if the Geass COMES BACK, then that means that it wasn't broken which ALSO means that one NEVER escaped its control in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I call that escaping from the control of the geass command.
    Unfortunately, that doesn't refute what I already said about the Geass rules. The rules state that a Geass command can't force someone to do anything that they are not physically or mentally able to do. Since Euphemia was dying, the Geass could have easily have faded away OR Euphemia could have pushed it back. YOU need to prove to me that the former never happened and that the latter is the only thing that is true.

    Basically, in order to win the argument, you need to not only prove yourself right but ALSO prove me wrong (using evidence from the show). You have yet to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Unless it was inevitable that Euphemia would be able to defeate her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon by simply instantly remembering how she had defeated it earlier, after many minutes of subconscious struggle, right before Lelouch shot her.
    Defeating the Geass equals breaking it. The Geass came back while she in the sickbay. Therefore, Euphemia never broke the Geass. Since you are the only person having that "Euphemia-broke-the-Geass" opinion (and since you are a dumb troll that I am no longer taking seriously), I not inclined to believe anything you say.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But nobody would used that possibility to argue that Nunnaly failed to break her Blindness geass.
    Of course not, because there is no proof that that happened. Like I have told you, because Code Geass is a limited universe (like all cartoons), you MUST use proof FROM THE SHOW in order to prove your point. You CANNOT use unproven and unsupported assumptions of YOUR OWN to prove YOUR point. That is a logical fallacy and it makes your point moot (now you need to prove to me that Nunnally did regain her eyesight from time to time using evidence from the show). We have gone through this.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So you claim that in Britannia being unable to speak above a very low whisper disqualifies someone from being able to command?
    Since I never made that claim, what you said after it is also moot. But whatever...

    When Euphemia was in the sickbay, the Geass appeared but only for a few seconds. During those seconds, she really only said a few of sentences: "Suzaku, you're Japanese, right? No...I mustn't. I can't even think of such a thing. No, please." Immediately after she said that, she either pushed it back OR the Geass faded as per the rules. She was fighting the Geass pretty much the whole time that was active while she was in the sickbay (which was only a few seconds), so no, I do not think that she would have been able to give an order to follow her Geass command during that time.

    Of course, like I have said before, the ONLY reason why Euphemia didn't issue an order while in the sickbay was because Sunrise made sure that that was the case. If have a problem with it, take it up WITH THEM. By the way, you haven't done that yet, have you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow Lelouch View Post
    I've been to some forums where I was down repped for bashing trolls. By the ones fighting with the trolls for that matter!
    Well, while I don't understand why you were down repped by the ones fighting the trolls in the first place, I kinda understand why you were (in a general sense). On most forums, even AF, it is against the rules to bait trolls, even the most annoying ones. If you say something or do something in order to set a troll (or anyone really) off, then you are baiting, which is against the rules. I do not know what bashing you were doing, but baiting usually causes people to get down repped, not the bashing itself.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 03-17-2010 at 03:13 PM.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  19. #244
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    In post # 239 I wrote:
    The title of my thread is "Did Euphemia Escape From the CONTROL of Her Geass Command Before Lelouch Shot Her?"

    I contend that Euphemia achieved a victory like Cannae or Austerlitz over her Geass Command right before Lelouch shot her and again in the sickbay of he Avalon. Those were less than absolutely total victories but still very great and decisive victories. Sure the geass command continued to fight back and try to regain control of Euphemia (thus her eyes were still red) in the seconds before Lelouch shot her. Yes the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia in the sickbay of the Avalon. But the power of the geass was no longer enough to make her do anything.

    I call that escaping from the control of the geass command.


    And wolfgirl90 replied in post # 243 with:

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    I am aware of the title. However, my point is that one can't escape the control of the Geass without breaking it. One might be able to resist the Geass for a bit, but if the Geass COMES BACK, then that means that it wasn't broken which ALSO means that one NEVER escaped its control in the first place.
    You are just playing with words. You claim that only total, instant, constant, and eternal victory is any kind of victory.

    You must have seen many movies and tv shows were someone is possessed, or hypnotized, or under some kind of mind control. And in many of them he struggles against the control and emerges from it briefly, permanently, or on and off.

    If a character breaks free of mind control for 15 seconds and gives the hero vital help, he can be said to have escaped the mind control for those fifteen seconds.

    Euphemia almost certainly escaped from the control of her geass command for several seconds before Lelouch shot her, because she had just lost her nightmare and here was her brother with two nightmares right in front of her with great potential to help or hinder carrying out her task and she didn't ask him about his intentions.

    And I think that it is almost equally certain that her victory would have been permanent despite all attempts the geass command might make to regain control of her. Because when the geass command tried to take control of her in the sickbay she defeated it instantly.

    So I say that her instant defeat of the attempt by the geass command to regain control of her in the sickbay only proves how easy it now was for her to defeat it each and every time it would try to regain control of her.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Unfortunately, that doesn't refute what I already said about the Geass rules. The rules state that a Geass command can't force someone to do anything that they are not physically or mentally able to do. Since Euphemia was dying, the Geass could have easily have faded away OR Euphemia could have pushed it back. YOU need to prove to me that the former never happened and that the latter is the only thing that is true.
    The geass rules offer one possible explanation of why the geass command didn't make Euphemia kill Suzaku or have the Avalon destroy the nearest Japanese Ghetto. But since we are discussing another possible explanation, you cannot use the existence of that one possible explanation to disprove the correctness of another possible explanation. instead the explanation which seems most consistent with the facts is more likely to be the correct one.

    It is impossible to prove a negative (to absolutely disprove the idea that the geass command simply gave up), and so by your ideas it is impossible for be to prove a positive, that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon.

    But Euphemia could still talk for many seconds or even a few minutes after the geass command ceased its activity. So Euphemia had enough time to give a simple order like "Kill Suzaku" or "Destroy the nearest Eleven ghetto", or even a more complex order with several sentences, between the time the geass command tried to take control of her and the time that she died.

    That indicates that it is almost certain that the geass command did not give up trying to control Euphemia because of it's false belief that she was too weak to kill, but because Euphemia defeated it almost instantly.

    That is not the absolute proof that you unreasonably demand but is is enough to make unbiased persons think that Euphemia almost certainly defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Basically, in order to win the argument, you need to not only prove yourself right but ALSO prove me wrong (using evidence from the show). You have yet to do that.
    The attempt of the geass command to regain control of Euphemia in the sickbay and it's failure just in time to save Suzaku is many times more likely to be an almost inevitable result of certain dramatic elements of the plot than it is to be some random, meaningless event.

    If the geass command just happened to run out of geass energy to control Euphemia just in the nick of time to save Suzaku that would be an incredible coinicidence and a major weakness of the story.

    Since Euphemia obviously still could talk and give commands for seconds or minutes after the geass command ceased trying to control her, we can deduce that if the geass command gave up because it believed that Euphemia was too weak to kill -- despite having made her give orders just minutes or hours earlier that made other people kill hundreds or thousands of Japanese people -- that would mean that Suzaku was saved by the incredible stupidity of the geass command. Which would be a major plot weakness.

    So that leaves Euphemia defeating her geass command when it tried to regain control of her in the sickbay of the Avalon. Which is a much more reasonable and dramatic explanation for Suzaku's survival.

    But it would be an incredible coincidence if Euphemia instantly defeated her geass command just in the nick of time to save Suzaku when it tried to regain control in the sickbay of the Avalon. How could she possibly instantly find a way to defeat her geass command when it had controlled her for minutes or hours before? That would be a major plot weakness.

    But if Euphemia had defeated her geass command before, she could instantly remember how she did it before. thus she could instantly defeat her geass command the next time. Thus Euphemia must have defeated her geass command while talking to Lelouch right before he shot her.

    So, in order for Code Geass to be a well written tv show, Euphemia had to defeat her geass command while talking to Lelouch right before he shot her.



    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Defeating the Geass equals breaking it. The Geass came back while she in the sickbay. Therefore, Euphemia never broke the Geass. Since you are the only person having that "Euphemia-broke-the-Geass" opinion (and since you are a dumb troll that I am no longer taking seriously), I not inclined to believe anything you say.
    But I say that her instant defeat of the attempt by the geass command to regain control of her in the sickbay only proves how easy it now was for her to defeat it each and every time it would try to regain control of her.

    And I my text right above your quote that I am replying to is a logical demonstration that Euphemia had to defeat her geass command for Code Geass to be a well written show.

    In post # 239 I wrote:

    And as I pointed out months ago there is no proof that Nunnally's blindness geass did not try and fail to come back from time to time, or even that it might have sometimes succeeded for seconds or minutes at a time when Nunnally was off screen and after the series ended. But nobody would used that possibility to argue that Nunnally failed to break her Blindness geass.

    And in post # 243 you wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Of course not, because there is no proof that that happened. Like I have told you, because Code Geass is a limited universe (like all cartoons), you MUST use proof FROM THE SHOW in order to prove your point. You CANNOT use unproven and unsupported assumptions of YOUR OWN to prove YOUR point. That is a logical fallacy and it makes your point moot (now you need to prove to me that Nunnally did regain her eyesight from time to time using evidence from the show). We have gone through this.
    Nunnally was clearly able to see in all the minutes or hours of screen time that she was seen in for the rest of the series. And during all the days or weeks or months of fictional time until the end of the series she was clearly able to see most of the time. Nobody commented while on screen about Nunnally ever relapsing into blindness. So if she did relapse into blindness during that period it must have been for few enough and short enough periods not to be mentioned by any of the characters.

    Either Nunnally never relapsed into blindness for even a single second, or else she did relapse into blindness a few times that were not seen onscreen and were not commented on by anyone on screen.

    But after the end of the series there is no information on Nunnally. Nunnally could have been blind for absolutely zero percent of the time or absolutely one hundred percent of the time or any where in between. Anyone who assumes that Nunnally could see all the time for the rest of her life is making an assumption that may be true but has no factual basis.

    If you read some fan fiction in which Nunnally struggled with her blindness coming back would you say that in the fictional universe of that fan fiction Nunnally had failed to defeat her blindness geass? Or would you say that if Nunnally could see 60 % of the time, or 75 % of the time or 99.9% of the time, she had defeated her blindness geass and its comebacks were only minor setbacks to her?

    I say that the fact that Euphemia's geass command tried to make a comeback in the Avalon Sickbay and was instantly defeated by Euphemia shows that Euphemia had defeated her geass command about as thoroughly as Nunnally defeated her blindness geass.

    In post # 0233 wolfgirl9 said that Euphemia could barely speak above a whisper, as if that had anything to do with her ability to kill. So in post # 239 I wrote:

    So you claim that in Britannia being unable to speak above a very low whisper disqualifies someone from being able to command? It seems to me that if a young and beautiful dying princess ordered a Britannian crew to slaughter some more Japanese people, something which apparently they enjoyed doing anyway, the feebleness of her voice as death neared would only make them more eager to obey her last orders and avenge her death on those who dared to be born into the same nationality that they assumed that her killer was a member of.

    and wolfgirl90 replied in post # 243:

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Since I never made that claim, what you said after it is also moot. But whatever...

    When Euphemia was in the sickbay, the Geass appeared but only for a few seconds. During those seconds, she really only said a few of sentences: "Suzaku, you're Japanese, right? No...I mustn't. I can't even think of such a thing. No, please." Immediately after she said that, she either pushed it back OR the Geass faded as per the rules. She was fighting the Geass pretty much the whole time that was active while she was in the sickbay (which was only a few seconds), so no, I do not think that she would have been able to give an order to follow her Geass command during that time.
    And I am saying that the reason why the geass was active for only a few seconds is because Euphemia defeated it. You say that Euphemia did not have enough time to give any long and complicated order (like "Kill Suzaku" or "Destroy the nearest Eleven Ghetto") during the few seconds that the geass command was active in the sickbay. But she had many seconds or even a few minutes left in which she did say at least several sentences. That gave her plenty of time for ordering even a fairly long and complex order.

    If the geass command gave up trying to make her order others to kill it gave up way too soon.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-17-2010 at 11:18 PM.

  20. #245
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth in Blue View Post
    No, it's actually:

    I get this image of you frantically pounding the keys, in a panic, trying to post this. Asking this question is like asking: "if a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
    No one will be able or willing to answer it.
    No, but I do make a lot of typos which I go back and correct. But I don't know the procedure for correcting the title of a thread. Otherwise I would correct it.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth in Blue View Post
    What I noticed was that the doctors didn't even try to save Euphy, therefore it's THEIR FAULT SHE DIED!
    Expect proEuphie to post another thread about what I just said.

     
    I'm sorry, my fellow human beings, I just committed heresy
    [/quote]

    Not exactly. If the doctors did not try to save Euphemia then they were a group (the other being Lelouch, CC, and Kallen) that was necessary but not sufficient to kill Euphemia. The activities of both groups would be necessary and sufficient to cause Euphemia's death and therefore preventing either group from acting as they did would have saved Euphemia's life. If your theory is correct.

    So you seem to be implying that Lelouch was not responsible for Euphemia's death because he had not aware of the doctors' hypothetical evil intent toward Euphie and thus assumed that they would treat her and save her life.

    But LELOUCH DID NOT KNOW THAT EUPHEMIA WOULD BE TREATED IN THE SICKBAY OF THE AVALON!

    Lelouch was surprise, shocked, and scared when Suzaku in the Lancelot swooped down and picked up Euphemia's body and carried her away. Lelouch was not planning for that to happen or for Euphemia to be treated for her wounds in the sickbay of the Avalon.

    It is possible that the doctors did treat Euphemia successfully but gave her a drug which simulated death in order to gain control of her for some nefarious purpose of theirs or of the Emperor.

    I believe that if Euphemia was publicly known to have survived the Emperor would have made up a story about Zero having an evil plan to infiltrate the opening of the SAZ and start an uprising was was to be the signal for the massacre of all the Britannians in Area Eleven. Zero boasted of it to Euphie in their private meeting but she escaped from him and ordered her men to kill all the Elevens in the stadium and prevented the full scale uprising since many rebel groups feared that Euphemia's actions showed that their plot was exposed.

    Unfortunately Euphemia was too kind and gentle and the shock of having to do such a violent act had driven her insane, but her doctors hoped that she might be cured in a few years or decades.

    And if Euphemia was really dead the Emperor might have used such a story to discredit Zero and make it even harder for Lelouch to resume his rebellion.

    Or the Emperor could have claimed that Zero used some kind of mind control (but not geass of course) to make Euphemia order the massacre, deliberately sacrificing thousands of Japanese lives to start his Black Rebellion. That story might make Zero hated by millions of Japense and others who believed it.

    It seems to me that the only possible reason for not finding a way to blame the massacre on Zero was if Euphemia was secretly alive. If Euphie was secretly alive as a prisoner of the Emperor then blaming the massacre on her made sense. It would humiliate her. And it would make it doubly impossible for her to ever influence the course of events if she escaped. She would be claiming to be a princess who was dead and who was hated and despised as an evil massacre princess (even though her respected sister Cornelia was at least as much of a massacre princess as Euphemia).
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-17-2010 at 11:21 PM.

  21. #246
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Here is a simple, elegant argument that Euphemia defeated her geass command right before Lelouch shot her, from my post # 244..

    The attempt of the geass command to regain control of Euphemia in the sickbay and it's failure just in time to save Suzaku is many times more likely to be an almost inevitable result of certain dramatic elements of the plot than it is to be some random, meaningless event.

    If the geass command just happened to run out of geass energy to control Euphemia just in the nick of time to save Suzaku that would be an incredible coincidence and a major weakness of the story.

    Since Euphemia obviously still could talk and give commands for seconds or minutes after the geass command ceased trying to control her, we can deduce that if the geass command gave up because it believed that Euphemia was too weak to kill -- despite having made her give orders just minutes or hours earlier that made other people kill hundreds or thousands of Japanese people -- that would mean that Suzaku was saved by the incredible stupidity of the geass command. Which would be a major plot weakness.

    So that leaves Euphemia defeating her geass command when it tried to regain control of her in the sickbay of the Avalon. Which is a much more reasonable and dramatic explanation for Suzaku's survival.

    But it would be an incredible coincidence if Euphemia instantly defeated her geass command just in the nick of time to save Suzaku when it tried to regain control in the sickbay of the Avalon. How could she possibly instantly find a way to defeat her geass command when it had controlled her for minutes or hours before? That would be a major plot weakness.

    But if Euphemia had defeated her geass command before, she could instantly remember how she did it before. thus she could instantly defeat her geass command the next time. Thus Euphemia must have defeated her geass command while talking to Lelouch right before he shot her.

    So, in order for Code Geass to be a well written tv show, Euphemia had to defeat her geass command while talking to Lelouch right before he shot her.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-17-2010 at 11:20 PM.

  22. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    No, but I do make a lot of typos which I go back and correct. But I don't know the procedure for correcting the title of a thread. Otherwise I would correct it.
    Go to your first post and press edit. Then select "go advanced" Then the title should be at the top of the post. You can fix the spoiler in "Euphemia's Murder" that way too.


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  23. #248
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You are just playing with words.
    Well, I'm playing with you, so I guess that would be appropriate. Anyway, I never used the word "victory", so I do not know what you are talking about.

    Again, you DO realize that I am really not paying any real attention to what you say, right? That I am responding to you simply because what you say is hilarious and idiotic? That I REALLY do not care about Euphemia's death? Okay, just letting you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Euphemia almost certainly escaped from the control of her geass command for several seconds before Lelouch shot her, because she had just lost her nightmare and here was her brother with two nightmares right in front of her with great potential to help or hinder carrying out her task and she didn't ask him about his intentions.
    Again, that doesn't prove anything. Like I said, Lelouch is her brother and the one who issued the Geass. Because of this, and the fact that he wasn't trying to stop her, she was as normal and calm as she normally would have been. This doesn't prove that she "escaped" anything. The keyword from you is "almost certainly".

    Also, its "Knightmare". Again, if it feels like I am nit-picking, its because I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But since we are discussing another possible explanation, you cannot use the existence of that one possible explanation to disprove the correctness of another possible explanation.
    Excuse me? I didn't "disprove" anything that you said since I didn't say that you were wholly wrong. HOWEVER, you are not wholly right, either. I CAN use the Geass rules to prove my point because these rules actually exist and are much more canon than the theory that you pulled out of your behind. And yes, I CAN use it to disprove you (again, because the Geass rules are canon and can easily prove you wrong). Learn how fallacies and arguments work before you accuse me of doing these things, troll.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    It is impossible to prove a negative (to absolutely disprove the idea that the geass command simply gave up), and so by your ideas it is impossible for be to prove a positive, that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon.
    It IS possible to prove a negative. That's a misconception and I laugh whenever people say this. If one could, I would consider thinking that it was impossible to be a logical fallacy all on its own. The statement "you can't prove a negative" or "its impossible to prove a negative" is negative in and of itself. If they, the negative statements, are proven to be true, as you claim, that means negatives CAN be proven true. OH SNAP! Did I just blow your mind?!

    I am not saying that I am completely right just as how I am not saying that you are completely wrong. HOWEVER, since YOU think that you are only one right here, YOU need to prove that I am wrong in order "win" the argument. Otherwise, you are no more "right" than I am.

    What I am saying is that EITHER the Geass rule took effect OR Euphemia pushed it back (not defeated, but pushed it back). You however, are saying that she "escaped" the Geass' control (or broke it) before she got to the sickbay. YOU need to prove me wrong AS WELL AS prove yourself right in order to "win" the argument. Otherwise, again, my argument is still valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    If the geass command just happened to run out of geass energy to control Euphemia just in the nick of time to save Suzaku that would be an incredible coincidence and a major weakness of the story.
    If you have a problem with it, take it up with Sunrise. By the way, have you contacted them about bringing Euphemia back to life. I mean, its one of things you want, right? That's what you are whining about, yes? In yet, you are still wasting time here...Okay, whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Which would be a major plot weakness.
    Irrelevant conclusion fallacy...again. Euphemia was DYING while she was in the sickbay, so needless to say, she was certainly not in the same condition then as she was while she was killing people. This is reason why the Geass acted differently: in the beginning, she was killing people; while in the sickbay, the rules took effect and the Geass faded away.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Which is a much more reasonable and dramatic explanation for Suzaku's survival.
    The fact that it was more "dramatic" doesn't mean that's true.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    How could she possibly instantly find a way to defeat her geass command when it had controlled her for minutes or hours before?
    Indeed. Of course, no one is arguing that Euphemia broke the Geass in the first place, so that point is moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But if Euphemia had defeated her geass command before, she could instantly remember how she did it before.
    Of course, as per the rules, all the memories that were sealed during the duration of the Geass would return and Euphemia would have remembered the massacre she JUST caused ALONG WITH how to defeat the Geass (you know, just as how Lelouch and Shirley regained their memories when their Geass commands were broken). Oh wait, what's that? She didn't remember the massacre? I wonder what that means?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So, in order for Code Geass to be a well written tv show, Euphemia had to defeat her geass command while talking to Lelouch right before he shot her.
    Straw man fallacy. What does the quality of the writing have ANYTHING to do with what happened in the show (and who even argued that the quality of the show even mattered)? I could easily argue that in order for the Twilight series to be a popular series, Bella should have figured out that Edward was a sparkling wuss who was willing to kill himself because she wouldn't answer his phone calls, but that doesn't change the fact that that was what happened.

    Same thing goes for you. We are not talking about the quality of the show's writing so talking about how everything SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED in order for the show to be well-written does not change WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED (well-written show or not) nor does it disprove my point. I didn't say anything about the quality of the show (neither here nor on any other thread of yours).
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 03-18-2010 at 12:43 PM.
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  24. #249
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo Vi Britannia View Post
    Go to your first post and press edit. Then select "go advanced" Then the title should be at the top of the post. You can fix the spoiler in "Euphemia's Murder" that way too.
    No, that only changed the title of the first post, not the title of the whole thread.

  25. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    No, that only changed the title of the first post, not the title of the whole thread.
    It worked when I did it. Try it again and make sure you enter it in the correct box.


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