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Thread: *SPOILERS* Did Euphie Escape...

  1. #51
    Senior Member KamiKenpachi has a reputation beyond repute KamiKenpachi has a reputation beyond repute KamiKenpachi has a reputation beyond repute KamiKenpachi has a reputation beyond repute KamiKenpachi has a reputation beyond repute KamiKenpachi has a reputation beyond repute KamiKenpachi has a reputation beyond repute KamiKenpachi has a reputation beyond repute KamiKenpachi has a reputation beyond repute KamiKenpachi has a reputation beyond repute KamiKenpachi has a reputation beyond repute KamiKenpachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Se my post # 45
    Too much to read. O.o
    ............. Sorry?
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  2. #52
    Cold-Blooded IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post

    And see my post # 45.

    Once Lelouch destroyed her nightmare and Euphie crawled out of the wreckage, Lelouch could have instantly blasted her with one of his big guns or picked her up in the hand of his nightmare to capture her. Lelouch could have destroyed her nightmare by blasting it with one of the big guns, which would have killed her instantly, instead of slicing it apart. He could have killed her or captured her before he did kill her.

    Lelouch did not kill Euphemia because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her. After her nightmare was destroyed Euphemia was totally helpless to kill anyone until Lelouch and Co. let her pick up and keep a machine gun.

    Lelouch did not kill Euphemia because he was in a hurry to get back to commanding the fight against the Britannians at Fuji and then start planning the next steps in the Black Rebellion. If there were any Britannians still fighting and massacring at Fuji capturing Euphemia and using her as a hostage would be the best way to stop the fighting as fast as possible.

    If there were any Japanese people in front of Euphie and behind the nightmares the geass command would have made Euphie mow them down instead of wasting her bullets on the nightmares. Unless at that point Euphie was only pretending to the geass command that she was doing her best to kill as many Japanese as possible but was actually trying to kill as few as possible. If there were any Japanese people in front of Lelouch and behind Euphie Lelouch would have deliberately condemmed them to death when he walked past Euphie and made it almost certain that she would turn around to look at him as he walked away with his back to her, confident that she wouldn't shoot him.

    So it is almost certain that there were no Japanese around to be endangered by Euphemia or to be witnesses. Even if Lelouch wanted to claim the glory of killing her he could have secretly captured her and then claimed to have killed her, asking CC and commanding Kallen to back him up.
    Well I have read your bible(yeah post #45 too) and the only thing I have to say is: You are Euphemia's Protector . Well actually we can think of many possibilities. Oh and about a quote. You talked about how Lelouch shot Euphemia. Actually Lelouch didn't care about Japanese or Britannian people, until he decided to fight for them, not Nunally and his mother. Everything is decided only in R2, but Euphemia is shot at R1 #23 episode I think. So that means by that time everything Lelouch cared about is killing Charles and avenging his mother, creating Nunally a peacefull life. Just as you said, Lelouch didn't want Euphemia to kill Japanese, because She didn't want it. Actually as it was said Euphemia was Lelouch's first love, so it makes sence. Before Lelouch unintetionaly cast his Geass upon Euphemia, he accepted that "Zone" or whatever it was called, where Elevens will become Japanese again. But after he cast his Geass he decided to use this, even though he did it with "Tear in his eye". I think that's what 23 episode is called. He saw that Euphemia CAN'T BREAK his Geass. HE even TRIED TO CANCEL HIS ORDER. But Euphemia kept slaughtering and slaughtering. IF she would have Escaped his Geass before he shot her, then this wouldn't have even happened. This is threads name, not BEFORE SHE DIED, BUT BEFORE SHE WAS SHOT.
    Did Euphemia escape from te controal of her geass before lelouch shote her?h
    So the answer to this is:
    No, she didn't escape it. If only she would have escaped it, Lelouch wouldn't have shot her.
    It is stupid to be afraid to die, but the most stupid thing is to be afraid to live.

  3. #53
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcePriestess View Post
    Well I have read your bible(yeah post #45 too) and the only thing I have to say is: You are Euphemia's Protector . Well actually we can think of many possibilities. Oh and about a quote. You talked about how Lelouch shot Euphemia. Actually Lelouch didn't care about Japanese or Britannian people, until he decided to fight for them, not Nunally and his mother. Everything is decided only in R2, but Euphemia is shot at R1 #23 episode I think. So that means by that time everything Lelouch cared about is killing Charles and avenging his mother, creating Nunally a peacefull life. Just as you said, Lelouch didn't want Euphemia to kill Japanese, because She didn't want it. Actually as it was said Euphemia was Lelouch's first love, so it makes sence. Before Lelouch unintetionaly cast his Geass upon Euphemia, he accepted that "Zone" or whatever it was called, where Elevens will become Japanese again. But after he cast his Geass he decided to use this, even though he did it with "Tear in his eye". I think that's what 23 episode is called. He saw that Euphemia CAN'T BREAK his Geass. HE even TRIED TO CANCEL HIS ORDER. But Euphemia kept slaughtering and slaughtering. IF she would have Escaped his Geass before he shot her, then this wouldn't have even happened. This is threads name, not BEFORE SHE DIED, BUT BEFORE SHE WAS SHOT.
    Did Euphemia escape from te controal of her geass before lelouch shote her?h
    So the answer to this is:
    No, she didn't escape it. If only she would have escaped it, Lelouch wouldn't have shot her.
    Yes, Lelouch tried to make Euphie disobey the geass in episode 22. But after she slipped away from him he just ordered his people to kill her. He should have ordered them to capture her and use her as a hostage to force the Britannians to stop the massacre.

    What would be the problem with locking Euphemia up so she couldn't kill anyone? This was a world with countless thousands or millions of prisoners after all. With reasonable security Euphemia would be no more likely to kill more people than any of the thousands and thousands of Britannian and Chinese and Euro Universe soldiers and Black Knights who were free, and armed, and might be given orders to massacre at any moment.

    If Lelouch cared enough to ask CC, she might have been able to tell him about ways to break a geass command. She certainly could have told him that VV could undo geass commands given by Lelouch who got his power from CC, just as CC later undid a forgetting geass used by Charles who got his power from VV.

    Since VV was immortal, he probably had a morbid fear of loosing his money and being poor for countless ages. So he would probably do anything easy and not too evil for him for some money to invest in some of his countless secret investment funds. CC could have told Lelouch that undoing Euphemia's geass command would be a simple matter of negotiation for her guardians.

    And it seems absurd to say that Euphemia was under the control of the geass command when she was talking to Lelouch and then just standing around watching him before he shot her. She knew that Lelouch/Zero was the leader of the Black Knights, a rebel group which had enough military power to be a serious threat to Britannian control of Japan. She could see two of their nightmares in front of her and towering over her.

    The geass command had access to all her knowledge, so it knew that Lelouch/Zero had the potential to help or hinder the carrying out of the order to kill the Japanese. If it had control of Euphemia it would have done something or said something to try to gain Zero's help and/or avoid Zero's interference. But she didn't do or say anything to even find out Zero's intentions, let alone influence them. Clearly the geass was not in control of her before Lelouch shot her, and he should have noticed that.

    Euphie did largely escape from the control of her geass and Lelouch shot her anyway.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 07-30-2009 at 12:30 PM.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Yes, Lelouch tried to make Euphie disobey the geass in episode 22. But after she slipped away from him he just ordered his people to kill her. He should have ordered them to capture her and use her as a hostage to force the Britannians to stop the massacre.
    The Britannians wouldn't have stopped the massacre. "Hey, the Japanese captured our Princess... GET THEM!" And we all know that Cornelia would've been on the first row of the killing spree.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    What would be the problem with locking Euphemia up so she couldn't kill anyone? This was a world with countless thousands or millions of prisoners after all. With reasonable security Euphemia would be no more likely to kill more people than any of the thousands and thousands of Britannian and Chinese and Euro Universe soldiers and Black Knights who were free, and armed, and might be given orders to massacre at any moment.
    Geez, you love Euphemia enough to be alright with locking her up like a lunatic. Didn't you say on another post that you loved her and admired her because she was a good person and did good things. I don't know, but her locked up like a mental patient would totally stop her from doing "good things for others", ergo, she wouldn't be the Euphie you love anymore =(

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    If Lelouch cared enough to ask CC, she might have been able to tell him about ways to break a geass command. She certainly could have told him that VV could undo geass commands given by Lelouch who got his power from CC, just as CC later undid a forgetting geass used by Charles who got his power from VV.
    CC can't break a Geass command. VV can't do it either. Geass represents itself like the power that individual would manifest. CC didn't know that Lelouch's power was going to be 'control people', just like VV didn't know that Jeremiah's Geass had the power to cancel other Geass until he gave it to him.

    I don't think I should say this, but I will in case you come up with the: VV should have made Jeremiah use his anti-Geass on Euphemia: Jeremiah got his Geass way after Euphemia died.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Since VV was immortal, he probably had a morbid fear of loosing his money and being poor for countless ages. So he would probably do anything easy and not too evil for him for some money to invest in some of his countless secret investment funds. CC could have told Lelouch that undoing Euphemia's geass command would be a simple matter of negotiation for her guardians.
    You didn't pay attention while watching R2, right? VV was Charles's twin brother. He was a Prince and was being protected by the Emperor of Britannia. And even if Charles gave the throne to some one else, he had The Cult. It's safe to say VV had a lot of resources, so being poor wasn't something to be preoccupied with.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And it seems absurd to say that Euphemia was under the control of the geass command when she was talking to Lelouch and then just standing around watching him before he shot her. She knew that Lelouch/Zero was the leader of the Black Knights, a rebel group which had enough military power to be a serious threat to Britannian control of Japan. She could see two of their nightmares in front of her and towering over her.

    The geass command had access to all her knowledge, so it knew that Lelouch/Zero had the potential to help or hinder the carrying out of the order to kill the Japanese. If it had control of Euphemia it would have done something or said something to try to gain Zero's help and/or avoid Zero's interference. But she didn't do or say anything to even find out Zero's intentions, let alone influence them. Clearly the geass was not in control of her before Lelouch shot her, and he should have noticed that.
    She was under the control of the Geass. She was firing at random Japanese before Lelouch found her. She even tried to battle Kallen in a KF, though of course that was a lost cause since Euphie can be said to be an average pilot at best. And what did she care if two Knightmares were towering over her, she just wanted to kill the Eleven's thanks to the Geass.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Euphie did largely escape from the control of her geass and Lelouch shot her anyway.
    No, she didn't. And that was the point. This whole thing with Euphemia was meant to be a sad plot device to make the story move further. Although you love Euphemia, she was never meant to be the leading girl or have a happy ending. It sucks (though not for me), but deal with it. The creators of Code Geass made this final, their purpose never was to make her the Harry Potter equivalent.

     
    I know I shouldn't have done this, but oh God...*head/desk*
    Last edited by Luluko; 07-30-2009 at 02:31 PM.
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  5. #55
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    1) Euphemia did not do anything to obey the geass after shooting at the nightmares with the machine gun (which Lelouch & co. so inexplicably let her pick up and keep) and then trying to reload it. Euphemia did not seem to be aware of her geass command after apologizing to Lelouch/Zero for thinking he was Japanese.

    After that Euphemia did nothing to obey the command and kill Japanese while the clock ticked and seconds passed away. She watched Lelouch/Zero, who had the power to help or hinder her obedience to the geass command, and did not say anything about it to him.

    I think the geass command no longer had the power to make her do anything to obey it and kill Japanese people. Euphemia had mostly regained control of her actions. But obviously she did not clearly remember the massacre, which would have horrified her. Thus she was rapidly escaping from the control of the geass and forgetting what she had done when under its control.
    She WAS aware of the command after she saw Lelouch. Remember when she was talking to Lelouch about the SAZ and helping Japan, but said "Wait, Japan?" Her initial plans (helping the Japanese with the SAZ) were in complete contradiction of the command that has been given to her.

    As I have already pointed out to you multiple times, she stopped firing because Lelouch, her dear half-brother, was talking to her. The Geass does not change one's personality nor are one's memories tampered with until AFTER the Geass has worn off.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    2) Euphemia still had red circles around her eyes right before Lelouch shot her, despite the fact that she was ignoring and unaware of the geass command. This shows that the red circles appear as soon as the geass command gets a tiny percentage of the control it needs to dominate someone's will, and not when it has achieved total domination and control. Of course with everyone else the difference is insignificant, since every other person becomes totally enslaved by the geass command within a split second of the red circles appearing.
    Oh, the assumptions you make. And I guess I am supposed to buy that?

    First, that is over analyzing what is going on. The red circles appear in someone's eyes when ever the Geass is influencing them. Simple as that. Euphemia had red eyes when she was first resisting and then when she was completely controlled. Because of this, its rather futile to try and analyze HOW MUCH the Geass is controlling the person based on their eyes. However, since the red eyes are an indicator that the person is being controlled, the fact that Euphemia STILL had red eyes mean she DID NOT break the Geass before she was shot. You answered your own question again.

    Second, let me remind you that NUNNALLY RESISTED LELOUCH'S GEASS FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME AS EUPHEMIA!!! So, you can stop praising Euphemia for this, now.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    3) When Suzaku asked Euphemia in the sick bay why she gave the order she asked him what order, puzzled, and there were no red circles in her eyes. So she had forgotten about the massacre, and the absence of red circles showed that she was even less controlled by the geass command than when she had been talking to Lelouch, unaware of the geass command.

    That seems like she was one hundred percent or almost one hundred percent free of the geass.
    Yes, but that is not the question, isn't? The question is "Did Euphemia escape the Geass BEFORE she was shot?" The answer is an apparent no.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Then the red circles appeared in her eyes, after a time Euphie became aware of the geass command, fought against it, and then she was peaceful again, and then the red circles vanished. Euphie was not even aware of the geass command for a large part of the time that the red circles were in her eyes, which proves that they were visible when the geass command was not even strong enough for her to notice and resist it.
    What are talking about? She WAS aware of the Geass command when the red circles were in her eyes when she was with Suzaku. "No! No! I mustn't think that way!"

    She was resisting the whole time that the red circles were there. So your point is moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Though it is commonly believed that the geass command faded away because it found that Euphemia was too weak to kill it is possible that Euphemia simply resisted and defeated it. After the geass command tried to take over her, she did move her hands and arms a little. She was not totally helpless. She might have found a way to attack Suzaku.
    Euphemia had just been shot in the stomach. She was in an intensive care unit. She just came out of surgery. I think that qualifies as totally helpless, don't you? The girl could barely keep her eyes open. If your only evidence that she must have defeated the Geass (rather than the Geass simply fading away) is that she did not get up and kill Suzaku, slashed his throat with her thumbnail or used some superhuman death grip on him, then you need to fall back to reality and quickly. Killing him with a slash at his throat with her THUMBNAIL?! Yeah, calm down.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    4) The evidence seems to clearly show that Euphemia almost totally freed herself from the geass command and regained control of her body before Lelouch shot her. So how does that compare to Nunnally?
    On par. As I pointed out, both Euphemia and Nunnally were able to resist Lelouch's Geass and they resisted for the same amount of time. So, that point is, once again, moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I said that Euphemia seems to have approximately ninety percent or so freed herself from control of the geass command in minutes, probably less than an hour, and on the order of ten thousand times faster than Nunnally freed herself.
    But she NEVER escaped the control of the Geass. You just answered your own question once again. Also, I think you have completely forgotten about when Lelouch used his Geass on Nunnally, otherwise you wouldn't be making this claim over and over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But if Nunnally only started to free herself from her geass when Charles died, she did so in a month or so. Thus makes the speed of Euphemia's escape much less impressive compared to Nunnally's. But on the other hand it means that Euphemia freed herself when the geass user who had put it on her, Lelouch, was still alive, instead of having to wait until he died, as Nunnally had to wait until Charles died.
    Did you even WATCH R2? Lelouch used his Geass on Nunnally. Nunnally resisted his Geass for the SAME AMOUNT OF TIME AS EUPHEMIA! So, once again, you can stop comparing the two and stop swooning over Euphemia because she resisted the Geass. Nunnally did the EXACT same thing.

    I am not saying that you can't be a fan of Euphemia (although, you need to calm down with your fandom if you want to be taken seriously). However, if you are going to defend her, and want to have your claims taken seriously, you need to do some research on the character and the series. I mean, did you even watch R2 or did you just forget that Lelouch used his Geass on his sister?

    If it seems that I am uninterested in Euphemia, its because I'm not. I have seen every Gundam series, read every book and seen every movie and OVA and I am sorry to say that, as a character, nothing jumps out at me (since Code Geass is Sunrise's first non-Gundam mech series, comparing the two happens a lot). Sunrise and Bandai seem to have templates for characters and they have been doing this for over 30 years. A pacifistic princess? I can name about 6 of those in the Gundam series alone, so Sunrise repeating this pattern in Code Geass with Euphemia does not surprise me nor does it pique my interest.

    Sunrise hasn't let Gundam die, so they are certainly not going to let Code Geass die. This is an over 30 year trend that I am surprised a lot of people haven't picked up on.
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    since Code Geass is Sunrise's first non-Gundam mech series
    Eh, no. They also did Armored Trooper Votoms, The Vision of Escaflowne, Ideon and Sora Kake Girl. They're all mecha as well.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luluko View Post
    The Britannians wouldn't have stopped the massacre. "Hey, the Japanese captured our Princess... GET THEM!" And we all know that Cornelia would've been on the first row of the killing spree.
    What! You claim that the Britannians didn't love members of the Imperial family enough to stop a massacre once it was started? Even to save the person who gave the order, who might be assumed to want to change her order to save herself? They must be like sharks in a feeding frenzy in your opinion. Remember that Lelouch and Nunnally were sent to Japan as hostages and were presumed killed when Britannia attacked. The Britannians would certainly assume that Euphie would be killed if they kept on attacking once she was a hostage.

    And Cornelia would not do anything to endanger Euphemia. Remember "Black Knight"? When Cornelia refused to attack the hotel where Euphemia was held hostage? When Lelouch thought that Euphemia was Cornelia's weakness, a weakness which he senselessly threw away by killing her in episode 23. If a live Euphie was tied to the front of the Gawain, the most powerful Back Knight weapon, Suzaku would not attack it or let anyone else attack it and Cornelia would forbid attacking it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luluko View Post
    Geez, you love Euphemia enough to be alright with locking her up like a lunatic. Didn't you say on another post that you loved her and admired her because she was a good person and did good things. I don't know, but her locked up like a mental patient would totally stop her from doing "good things for others", ergo, she wouldn't be the Euphie you love anymore =(
    What! you claim that Euphie would stop being Euphie when she was locked up and her activities were restricted? You claim that a person's identity is not the result of the structure of her brain but of the social circumstances she finds herself in? If your theory was true we could let Charles Manson go free because he no longer is the same person he was before being imprisoned for forty years, and he has now somehow become innocent.

    And who says that Euphie could no longer do good after being locked up in a prison or or mental asylum? Wouldn't she be making life seem worth living for the staff and inmates of her institution? Don't they have the right to have their lives brightened by Euphie's presence? Do you think that it is impossible for any inmate to do good for the other inmates? Especially if she might possibly be very, very, rich?

    And Euphemia could possibly do more good for the outside world while locked up than Charles, VV, Lelouch, Schneitzel, Suzaku, Nunnally, Tianzi, and all the rest could have done free and at the height of their power simultaneously, merely by writing books and articles, because she cares about doing good more than all the others combined. Of course her editors could have a big job taking out all the examples of "Nihon dilando est" she writes when the urge to kill Japanese overpowers her for a while, but it could be very worthwhile for mankind to do so.

    And if Euphemia is rich, she might be able to direct from her institution businesses and charitable organizations which did a lot of good for the world, though no doubt the Japanese would be afraid to let any organization of hers operate in Japan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luluko View Post
    CC can't break a Geass command. VV can't do it either. Geass represents itself like the power that individual would manifest. CC didn't know that Lelouch's power was going to be 'control people', just like VV didn't know that Jeremiah's Geass had the power to cancel other Geass until he gave it to him.

    I don't think I should say this, but I will in case you come up with the: VV should have made Jeremiah use his anti-Geass on Euphemia: Jeremiah got his Geass way after Euphemia died.
    I believe that in the first episode of R2 CC undid a forgetfulness geass that Charles placed on Lelouch. Worlfgirl90 explained in one of her posts that CC could not undo the geass Lelouch placed on Euphie and that she could only undo the geass that Charles placed on Lelouch because Charles got his geass power from VV. And I immediately responded that meant that VV would be perfectly able to undo the geass command that Lelouch placed on Euphemia.

    So you think that there would be no point in locking up Euphie in the hope that there might someday be a cure for her geass command?

    I suppose you would say that Iqbal Masih, a Pakistani boy who was sold into slavery (I mean became a bonded laborer in a carpet factory) at the age of four should have died at the age of four instead of slaving in the factory for six long years until being freed and having only two short years of blessed freedom left before being assassinated. You would claim his future would have been too bleak with six long years of working twelve hour days and only two years of freedom after that.

    But he might have preferred to live until the age of twelve instead of dying at four, and I think that most of the hundreds or thousands of other child slaves (I mean bonded laborers) he helped to free would say that it was better that he lived to be twelve instead of dying at four, better that he had only two short years of freedom after being released than no time of freedom at all.

    And what do you think Dr. Otto Habsburg, long-time head of the Habsburg Dynasty, would think about this hypothetical question? Suppose that instead of being exiled from Austria in 1918 he was given the choice of being executed or imprisoned? Would he think that it would have been better for him to be executed in 1918 or imprisoned for forty or fifty or sixty years until 1958 to 1978, and then have only about thirty or forty or fifty years of freedom left until now? A person could be imprisoned for many decades and still have many decades of freedom left.

    And yet you seem to think that it would have been foolish to lock up Euphie in the hope that a cure might be found some time in the future, when a cure actually did appear only a year later. One stinking, lousy little year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luluko View Post
    You didn't pay attention while watching R2, right? VV was Charles's twin brother. He was a Prince and was being protected by the Emperor of Britannia. And even if Charles gave the throne to some one else, he had The Cult. It's safe to say VV had a lot of resources, so being poor wasn't something to be preoccupied with.
    I gave up watching Code Geass when Euphie was murdered, due to the severe lack of characters good enough to identify with or care about. What kind of security is there in being the brother of the emperor, who in fact was killed only a year later, or being the head of the geass cult when I believe VV took the position away from CC and so should have lived in fear of having it taken away from him? Please explain what kind of legal job someone with VV's experience and appearance could get if he lost all his money due to a stock market crash or one or two revolutions? VV should have been paranoid about having his assets confiscated in some kind of revolution and so should have had countless secret investment funds and been constantly eager to find more money for them.

    And I believe that VV murdered Marianne seven years before season one, and in R2 Charles took the geass code for immortality away from VV in revenge, and VV died soon after (though not of old age, since Charles seemed much too healthy at the same age). If VV suspected that Charles wanted revenge on him he would certainly fear that Charles might cut off his money and would want to beef up his secret investment accounts as much as he could, especially if he feared he might have to go into hiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luluko View Post
    She was under the control of the Geass. She was firing at random Japanese before Lelouch found her. She even tried to battle Kallen in a KF, though of course that was a lost cause since Euphie can be said to be an average pilot at best. And what did she care if two Knightmares were towering over
    her, she just wanted to kill the Eleven's thanks to the Geass.
    You say that Euphemia tried to fight Kallen? Perhaps you should check my post # 69 in the forum "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" and maybe change your mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luluko View Post
    No, she didn't. And that was the point. This whole thing with Euphemia was meant to be a sad plot device to make the story move further. Although you love Euphemia, she was never meant to be the leading girl or have a happy ending. It sucks (though not for me), but deal with it. The creators of Code Geass made this final, their purpose never was to make her the Harry Potter equivalent.
    Enter response

    Quote Originally Posted by Luluko View Post
     
    I know I shouldn't have done this, but oh God...*head/desk*
    Last edited by proEuphie; 07-31-2009 at 11:52 PM.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luluko View Post
    Eh, no. They also did Armored Trooper Votoms, The Vision of Escaflowne, Ideon and Sora Kake Girl. They're all mecha as well.
    I should have clarified. Code Geass is the first non-Gundam anime for Sunrise as it is organized now, not overall...I could never forget Escaflowne.
    This is my war face.

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  9. #59
    Senior Member Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko's Avatar
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    You know you can just write the whole reply instead of editing your comment for each part, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    What! You claim that the Britannians didn't love members of the Imperial family enough to stop a massacre once it was started? Even to save the person who gave the order, who might be assumed to want to change her order to save herself? They must be like sharks in a feeding frenzy in your opinion. Remember that Lelouch and Nunnally were sent to Japan as hostages and were presumed killed when Britannia attacked. The Britannians would certainly assume that Euphie would be killed if they kept on attacking once she was a hostage.

    And Cornelia would not do anything to endanger Euphemia. Remember "Black Knight"? When Cornelia refused to attack the hotel where Euphemia was held hostage? When Lelouch thought that Euphemia was Cornelia's weakness, a weakness which he senselessly threw away by killing her in episode 23. If a live Euphie was tied to the front of the Gawain, the most powerful Back Knight weapon, Suzaku would not attack it or let anyone else attack it and Cornelia would forbid attacking it.
    I'm not claiming, is a fact. Euphemia wasn't respected as a Princess or as a Viceroy, she was consideres a doll. Just like Odysseus. The army only had to follow her command because she was a Princess, not because she had their respect like Cornelia or Schneizel.

    Also, you're playing to hard the card of Cornelia loving Euphie. Above being her sister, Cornelia was the Gobernor General of Area 11, she had resposabilities as a commander, even though she didn't want Euphemia to suffer. In R1 she was afraid of acting, but knew she had to do something, hence Suzaku being on stand by to attack the building. This is the same case scenario: if the Japanese took Princess Euphemia as hostage, she would have to act. If she failed, the Emperor would make other take charge and attack anyway since they couldn't lose control of Area 11 at that time.

    And lets keep in mind that Britannians thought that Lelouch and Nunnally where murdered by the Japanese. Thinking that the same was going to happen to Euphemia is not so farfetched. More wood to the fire, no peaceful resolution of trading the hostages here.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    What! you claim that Euphie would stop being Euphie when she was locked up and her activities were restricted? You claim that a person's identity is not the result of the structure of her brain but of the social circumstances she finds herself in? If your theory was true we could let Charles Manson go free because he no longer is the same person he was before being imprisoned for forty years, and he has now somehow become innocent.

    And who says that Euphie could no longer do good after being locked up in a prison or or mental asylum? Wouldn't she be making life seem worth living for the staff and inmates of her institution? Don't they have the right to have their lives brightened by Euphie's presence? Do you think that it is impossible for any inmate to do good for the other inmates? Especially if she might possibly be very, very, rich?

    And Euphemia could possibly do more good while locked up than Charles, VV, Lelouch, Schneitzel, Suzaku, Nunnally, Tianzi, and all the rest could have done free and at the height of their power simultaneously, merely by writing books and articles, because she cares about doing good more than all the others combined. Of course her editors could have a big job taking out all the examples of "Nihon dilando est" she writes when the urge to kill Japanese overpowers her for a while, but it could be very worthwhile for mankind to do so.
    Again, Euphemia was not popular in court. People didn't care about her.

    Another thing, the extra material released of R1 stated that by the time the SAZ was approved, Euphemia was no longer a Princess of Britannia. She traded her title so Zero could be forgiven. She was not going to be treated like a special cookie anymore, so down to the mental asylum with her, and those are not nice places to be. With all the drug they give you so you can behave, you start looking like a soulless being.

    Of course she wouldn't be the same person, try being locked away from society and see how well that works out.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I believe that in the first episode of R2 CC undid a forgetfulness geass that Charles placed on Lelouch. Worlfgirl90 explained in one of her posts that CC could not undo the geass Lelouch placed on Euphie and that she could only undo the geass that Charles placed on Lelouch because Charles got his geass power from VV. And I immediately responded that meant that VV would be perfectly able to undo the geass command that Lelouch placed on Euphemia.
    She didn't undid Charless Geass, that's just fans speculations again. CC is able to enter the minds of people she has contracts or who are strong candidates for Geass, not just anyperson. Charles's Geass is to rewrite memories, but it doesn't erase them, CC just had to get in there and tap the right place. But it wouldn't have worked with Euphie: she would have said something before Lelouch went all 'I have to kill Euphie'.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    So you think that there would be no point in locking up Euphie in the hope that there might someday be a cure for her geass command?

    I suppose you would say that Iqbal Masih, a Pakistani boy who was sold into slavery (I mean became a bonded laborer in a carpet factory) at the age of four should have died at the age of four instead of slaving in the factory for six long years until being freed and having only two short years of blessed freedom left before being assassinated. You would claim his future would have been too bleak with six long years of working twelve hour days and only two years of freedom after that.

    But he might have preferred to live until the age of twelve instead of dying at four, and I think that most of the hundreds or thousands of other child slaves (I mean bonded laborers) he helped to free would say that it was better that he lived to be twelve instead of dying at four.

    And what do you think Dr. Otto Habsburg, long-time head of the Habsburg Dynasty, would think about this hypothetical question? Suppose that instead of being exiled from Austria in 1918 he was given the choice of being executed or imprisoned? Would he think that it would have been better for him to be executed in 1918 or imprisoned for forty or fifty or sixty years until 1958 to 1978, and then have only about thirty or forty or fifty years of freedom left until now? A person could be imprisoned for many decades and still have many decades of freedom left.
    You think that mentioning all those people makes your post look smart and deep, but you're wrong. Have in mind that none of them were affected BY MAGIC GLOWING EYES.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And yet you seem to think that it would have been foolish to lock up Euphie in the hope that a cure might be found some time in the future, when a cure actually did appear only a year later. One stinking, lousy little year later.
    B'aaaaw, cry harder. As I said, Euphemia was just a plot device, a tool to move the story. Nothing more, nothing less.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I gave up watching Code Geass when Euphie was murdered, due to the severe lack of characters good enough to identify with or care about. What kind of security is there in being the brother of the emperor, who in fact was killed only a year later, or being the head of the geass cult when I believe VV took the position away from CC and so should have lived in fear of having it taken away from him? Please explain what kind of legal job someone with VV's experience and appearance could get if he lost all his money due to a stock market crash or one or two revolutions? VV should have been paranoid about having his assets confiscated in some kind of revolution and so should have had countless secret investment funds and been constantly eager to find more money for them.
    As you said, you stopped watching during the first season, so you don't know about the Ragnarok plan Charles and VV had, it was all about merging into one being a la End of Evangelion. So please stop assuming things that you don't know about, VV wasn't thinking about his assets at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You say that Euphemia tried to fight Kallen? Perhaps you should check my post # 69 in the forum "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" and maybe change your mind.
    No need, I actually know what I'm talking about. She encountered Kallen while in a KF and went: 'You're japanese too, right?'. Her intention was to engage in battle, but she was using a rather old model compared to the Guren and was easily disarmed.

    I'll edit this once I read the final response to your rant.

    Edit: Going out for the weekend. I expect a XBOX HUGE wall of text as an answer, which I'll see on Sunday when I get back.
    Last edited by Luluko; 07-31-2009 at 11:30 AM.
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  10. #60
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    I totally agree with Luluko. ProEuphie you just need to not take this too personally. YOU ARE NOT EUPHEMIA and you do not need to be her lawyer. You are coming up with things that didn't even happen in series and you claim them to be true. I'm totally against it. And I'll repeat once again as I said before:
    EUPHEMIA DID NOT ESCAPE THE GEASS BEFORE SHE WAS SHOT,BECAUSE SHE SLAUGHTERED ALL THE JAPANESE THAT SHE FOUND.
    It is stupid to be afraid to die, but the most stupid thing is to be afraid to live.

  11. #61
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    see my post # 31 Euphemia's not a Lacus Clone.

    And see my post # 45.

    Once Lelouch destroyed her nightmare and Euphie crawled out of the wreckage, Lelouch could have instantly blasted her with one of his big guns or picked her up in the hand of his nightmare to capture her. Lelouch could have destroyed her nightmare by blasting it with one of the big guns, which would have killed her instantly, instead of slicing it apart. He could have killed her or captured her before he did kill her.

    Lelouch did not kill Euphemia because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her. After her nightmare was destroyed Euphemia was totally helpless to kill anyone until Lelouch and Co. let her pick up and keep a machine gun.

    Lelouch did not kill Euphemia because he was in a hurry to get back to commanding the fight against the Britannians at Fuji and then start planning the next steps in the Black Rebellion. If there were any Britannians still fighting and massacring at Fuji capturing Euphemia and using her as a hostage would be the best way to stop the fighting as fast as possible.

    If there were any Japanese people in front of Euphie and behind the nightmares the geass command would have made Euphie mow them down instead of wasting her bullets on the nightmares. Unless at that point Euphie was only pretending to the geass command that she was doing her best to kill as many Japanese as possible but was actually trying to kill as few as possible. If there were any Japanese people in front of Lelouch and behind Euphie Lelouch would have deliberately condemmed them to death when he walked past Euphie and made it almost certain that she would turn around to look at him as he walked away with his back to her, confident that she wouldn't shoot him.

    So it is almost certain that there were no Japanese around to be endangered by Euphemia or to be witnesses. Even if Lelouch wanted to claim the glory of killing her he could have secretly captured her and then claimed to have killed her, asking CC and commanding Kallen to back him up.
    As I recall most of the japanese fled already and the rest were already dead or were hiding, also you make it as is Lelouch wanted to kill her, Eupy is just as important as Suzaku, Shirley, Nunally, and is classmates are to Lelouch and would have "INDEED" tried to find another way if he was given time to. However the unexpected lost of control of his geass put him into a very emotionaly stress and unstable state impairing his judgement, that and the dying japanese asking him to save them and knowing that everything that happened to that point was indeed his fualt and as stated before at the time no one not even Lelouch knew that geass can be undone at the time. All factored into making lelouch shoot euphy
    Last edited by blackrosetwilight; 07-31-2009 at 07:55 AM.

  12. #62
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luluko View Post
    You know you can just write the whole reply instead of editing your comment for each part, right?

    But other people have complained about my long uninterrupted texts.


    You say that Euphemia tried to fight Kallen? Perhaps you should check my post # 69 in the forum "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" and maybe change your mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luluko View Post
    No need, I actually know what I'm talking about. She encountered Kallen while in a KF and went: 'You're japanese too, right?'. Her intention was to engage in battle, but she was using a rather old model compared to the Guren and was easily disarmed.

    I'll edit this once I read the final response to your rant.

    Edit: Going out for the weekend. I expect a XBOX HUGE wall of text as an answer, which I'll see on Sunday when I get back.
    Well, in my copy of episode 23 Kallen bumps into Euphemia and Euphie says something like "Are you Japanese? How dare you attack Princess Euphemia?" And Kallen says something like: "Aha! I found you!" (pleased at her clever detective work, no doubt) And Euphemia says something like "You're the girl from the Island", recognizing Kallen's voice (and not sounding very angry, despite Kallen shooting a machine gun at her the last time they met, instead sounding pleased to meet someone she encountered before) And then Kallen prepares to attack and says something like "I got you now!" and Lelouch interrupts.

    I don't see anything in this to give much clue about what Euphie plans to do about Kallen, a Black Knight who looks like a Britannian, and no hint that Euphie intends to fight her as you claim.

    Euphemia later apologized to Lelouch/Zero for harmlessly shooting a machine gun at his armored nightmare when she thought it had a Japanese pilot. That leaves two possibilities:

    1) Euphie would not have shot a dinky little hand-held machine gun at Kallen's nightmare, let alone done anything more likely to harm it and the pilot, once she recognized Kallen as a girl who did not look like a Japanese and thus was not covered by the geass command.

    2) Euphemia would have attacked Kallen's nightmare but was sorry for harmlessly shooting a machine gun at Zero's nightmare just a few minutes later, and so the geass command was rapidly losing its power to control her in those few minutes.

    Either possibility is evidence against your general argument.

    Look at your copy of the episode, and refresh your memory, then read my post # 69 in "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" and then think about whether you want to change your statement.

    P.S. The bit about Euphemia's older model nightmare being easily disarmed indicates that you might possibly be implying that Kallen disarmed Euphie's nightmare. If so you really need to watch the episode again.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-02-2009 at 12:31 AM.

  13. #63
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    As I recall most of the japanese fled already and the rest were already dead or were hiding, also you make it as is Lelouch wanted to kill her, Eupy is just as important as Suzaku, Shirley, Nunally, and is classmates are to Lelouch and would have "INDEED" tried to find another way if he was given time to. However the unexpected lost of control of his geass put him into a very emotionaly stress and unstable state impairing his judgement, that and the dying japanese asking him to save them and knowing that everything that happened to that point was indeed his fualt and as stated before at the time no one not even Lelouch knew that geass can be undone at the time. All factored into making lelouch shoot euphy
    If you say that there were no Japanese around when Lelouch shot Euphie, you are admitting that he could not possibly be hurried by the danger to those Japanese who were not there. And since capturing the enemy commander and using him as a hostage is usually a good way to stop a battle, Lelouch could not have killed the enemy commander Euphie because he was in a hurry to stop wasting time with her and get back to saving the Japanese. A live Euphie would be very useful for saving the Japanese.

    Lelouch could have killed or captured Euphemia before he did kill her. If he was in a hurry he wasted some time, which could only be justified by taking the extra time to capture her alive.

    Lelouch let Euphemia pick up and keep a machine gun and then got out of his armored nightmare and walked up to her, confident She wouldn't shoot him. If he was confident she wouldn't shoot him he should have known that it would be easy to make her is prisoner and then she would not be dangerous to anyone.

    And Lelouch probably did want to kill Euphie many times in the years since he swore to destroy Britannia. He probably intended to kill her when he pulled a gun on her in "Black Knight' and "Island of the Gods" but changed his mind at the last second.

    Lelouch came to the meeting with Euphie planning to make her shoot him and start his revolution. If he wanted her to survive he would have had a plan to save her and he could have quickly adapted that plan to giving her the massacre order. Since he didn't, Lelouch probably intended to kill Euphie right up to the moment he agreed to support the SAZ plan. And he went back to the previous plan of killing her just minutes after he was laughing and joking with her. I guess being supposedly the person Lelouch loves second best isn't a very big deal.

    Kallen prepared to knife one or more of the student council members when she feared her terrorist identity was known. But in Episode 23, just weeks or months after meeting them, and even less after being prepared to kill at least one of them, she thought that she hoped they got away to safety. But Lelouch thought that with the Black knights at Ashford, Nunnally would be safe. He didn't think about the safety of Milly, Rivalez, or even Shirley, who he had known for years, as much as someone who had recently been prepared to kill at least one of them. Saying that Lelouch cared about Euphemia as much as Shirley or Milly or Suzaku isn't claiming much about his feelings for her.

    In one of her posts wolfgirl90 says that at one point Lelouch was even willing to kill Nunnally. If true that makes a lie of the statement that Lelouch did everything for Nunnally's sake, and indicates he cared more about his crazy plan than any person.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-01-2009 at 05:04 PM.

  14. #64
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    If you say that there were no Japanese around when Lelouch shot Euphie, you are admitting that he could not possibly be hurried by the danger to those Japanese who were not there.
    What are talking about? I never said there was no Japanese and the reason why lelouch couldnt stop euphy from getting a gun or getting into a Knightmare Frame is becuase there were other soldier under euphys command to kill all japaneses who would've shot at Lelouch and for all the soldiers knew Zero was the Hero of the Japanese so he must've been a Japanese, though he wasnt(duh).

  15. #65
    Cold-Blooded IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    1) Lelouch could not have killed the enemy commander Euphie because he was in a hurry to stop wasting time with her and get back to saving the Japanese A live Euphie would be very useful for saving the Japanese..

    2) Lelouch could have killed or captured Euphemia before he did kill her. If he was in a hurry he wasted some time, which could only be justified by taking the extra time to capture her alive.

    -----
    3) And Lelouch probably did want to kill Euphie many times in the years since he swore to destroy Britannia. He probably intended to kill her when he pulled a gun on her in "Black Knight' and "Island of the Gods" but changed his mind at the last second.

    4)
    Lelouch was even willing to kill Nunnally. If true that makes a lie of the statement that Lelouch did everything for Nunnally's sake, and indicates he cared more about his crazy plan than any person.
    1) A live Euphie would be useful? Are you kidding? She was slaughtering Japanese and if Lelouch would have left her alone, what could have happened? And Lelouch wasn't in hurry. Actually Lelouch doesn't care about Japanese at all.(well maybe not at all, but the thing he cared is not that they died, but that Euphie slaughtered them.)

    2) Capture her alive? Do you understand that you are insane talking like this? Lelouch didn't capture her alive, because she slaughtered japanese, and if he would have captured her, Black Knights wouldn't have forgiven Lelouch for not killing her and they would have killed them, even if Zero said them to not do that. Plus Kallen was here. She saw everything and would have told the Black Knights. And she also wanted revenge for JApanese.

    3) He didn't change his mind on the last second... He just didn't want to kill her, because he LOVED her. He wanted to avoid killing her, and even if Euphie didn't find out his identify, he would have kept her as a hostage, at Kaminejima for example. He pulled a gun on her, just to make her think He would kill her!

    4) Watch R2 before talking OK? In R1 Lelouch left everything and everyone for Nunally's sake, but in R2 Nunally has become his enemy and Lelouch decided: I wouldn't fight for only Nunally anymore, I would fight for all people. And you don't know anything about how Charles ended up right? Lelouch already achieved everything he wanted and he even sacrificied his life for people of the world. And You really think that Lelouch cared only about his crazy plan? If he would have cared only about that, he wouldn't have sacrificied his life.*sobs* IF you DO THINK HE CARED ONLY ABOUT THAT, YOU ARE REALLY CRAZY.

    Sorry if this is long to read, but I don't think it's that long compared to the Bible you have written
    It is stupid to be afraid to die, but the most stupid thing is to be afraid to live.

  16. #66
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcePriestess View Post
    I totally agree with Luluko. ProEuphie you just need to not take this too personally. YOU ARE NOT EUPHEMIA and you do not need to be her lawyer. You are coming up with things that didn't even happen in series and you claim them to be true. I'm totally against it. And I'll repeat once again as I said before:
    EUPHEMIA DID NOT ESCAPE THE GEASS BEFORE SHE WAS SHOT,BECAUSE SHE SLAUGHTERED ALL THE JAPANESE THAT SHE FOUND.
    I can't help taking it personally. I can't help thinking about it all the time, so I might has well try to point out to Code Geass fans that Lelouch killed someone he didn't need to kill or have any reason to kill, that he murdered Euphemia.

    And sometimes I may remember things a little differently than they actually happened, That happens to a lot of people discussing movies, tv, and fiction when they rely on their memory too much. You should see my post # 62 above, and then go to the post it refers to, # 69 in the thread "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" which is kind of funny, I think.

    People have even misunderstood my posts when responding to them, though they could have simply glanced back at those posts to see what they said. I once wrote that something was never mandatory and people responded as though I wrote that it was never permissible. And see posts # 61, 63, 64, and 67 in this thread.

    Euphemia slaughtered all the Japanese she found until she stopped. She tried to slaughter Japanese when she shot at a crowd of fleeing fugitives, and we didn't see what happened to them. She tried to slaughter Japanese when she wasted bullets shooting at the two nightmares.

    But Euphemia did not show any awareness of her geass command after she apologized for shooting at Lelouch's nightmare thinking that it was occupied by Japanese.

    If she was still controlled by the geass command after that she should have run off to find more victims to shoot, now that she realized that the nightmares were not occupied by Japanese.

    Euphemia saw two nightmares right in front of her. She remembered that one of them was piloted by a girl who she remembered as a Britannian Black Knight, and the other one was Lelouch/Zero's. Euphemia knew that Zero was the leader of the Black Knight rebels whose power threatened to topple the Britannian government in Japan.

    So the geass command should have known that Zero's presence with another Black knight nightmare was important. Zero was the protector of the Japanese. He had a vast potential to help or hinder the task of killing the Japanese.

    So the geass command should have made Euphemia try to find out what Zero intended to do and then perhaps influence those intentions.

    Maybe the geass command couldn't think that intelligently. But it was smart enough to make Euphemia give orders like "kill all the Japanese". So it should have been smart enough to make her ask Zero, who was walking toward her just a few feet away, for help in killing the Japanese.

    Instead Euphemia asked Zero for his help in administering the SAZ, and then frowned and said "no, that isn't right." She didn't remember the massacre at all, except as a dim notion that the plan for the SAZ had been changed.

    That seems like proof that she was coming out of the control of the geass command and forgetting what she did while she was controlled by it.

    After that Euphemia just stood around and did nothing, probably trying to figure out what was happening.

    The clock was ticking. If her command was to kill all the Japaenese everywhere, Euphemia had to kill them faster than new Japanese babies were being born, which meant killing at least one Japanese person, and probably several, per minute. But she just stood around without doing anything to kill more Japanese. it certainly seems like she wasn't obeying or aware of the geass command any more.

    Of course if the creators of Code Geass had shown a few Japanese people walking right in front of Euphie without her trying to kill them the fact that she had escaped from the control of the geass would have been more apparent to the audience. But they probably figured that they didn't need to draw Euphie carrying a sign saying "I'm not controlled by the geass anymore" to make it apparant.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-01-2009 at 05:44 PM.

  17. #67
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    What are talking about? I never said there was no Japanese and the reason why lelouch couldnt stop euphy from getting a gun or getting into a Knightmare Frame is becuase there were other soldier under euphys command to kill all japaneses who would've shot at Lelouch and for all the soldiers knew Zero was the Hero of the Japanese so he must've been a Japanese, though he wasnt(duh).
    You seem to be discussing episode 22 when the massacre began. I was discussing episode 23, when Lelouch found Euphemia. There were no Britannian soldiers around in episode 23 when Leleouch let Euphie pick up and keep a machine gun that was lying on the ground. So Lelouch CC, and Kallen should have been able to stop Euphie from picking up the gun or to take it away from her with ease. But they did not lift a giant robot finger to do so, and so did not care about protecting the lives of any Japanese people who might have been in sight at the time.

    Anyway, I thought we agreed that there were no Japanese people around in episode 23 when Lelouch found Euphie. Thus in episode 23 Lelouch was not rushed to save the lives of Japanese people who were not present, and did not have to make a split second decision. Lelouch could take his time to make the right decision. Lelouch did take his time and made the wrong decision.

    .
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-01-2009 at 05:10 PM.

  18. #68
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    She WAS aware of the command after she saw Lelouch. Remember when she was talking to Lelouch about the SAZ and helping Japan, but said "Wait, Japan?" Her initial plans (helping the Japanese with the SAZ) were in complete contradiction of the command that has been given to her.
    It is good to hear from you again. But you should really be careful what you say and how you say it. When talking to Lelouch Euphemia invited him to help her with the SAZ and then frowned and said "no, that's not right" She remembered that something had changed but she didn't remember what. If she was clearly aware of the massacre either Euphie or the geass command would have done something about the possible interference or assistance that Zero could offer.

    This quote from my post # 66 should warn you to be careful about relying on your memory:

    "And sometimes I may remember things a little differently than they actually happened, That happens to a lot of people discussing movies, tv, and fiction when they rely on their memory too much. You should see my post # 62 above, and then go to the post it refers to, # 69 in the thread "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" which is kind of funny, I think.

    People have even misunderstood my posts when responding to them, though they could have simply glanced back at those posts to see what they said. I once wrote that something was never mandatory and people responded as though I wrote that it was never permissible. And see posts # 61, 63, 64, and 67 in this thread."


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    As I have already pointed out to you multiple times, she stopped firing because Lelouch, her dear half-brother, was talking to her. The Geass does not change one's personality nor are one's memories tampered with until AFTER the Geass has worn off.
    She stopped firing at Lelouch's nightmare when she recognized Lelouch/Zero. Lelouch did not talk to her before shooting her, I think. But why did the geass command let her talk about the SAZ instead of making her ask for Zero's help? Why did it let her just stand around thinking instead of making her run off to look for more victims? If it controlled her why didn't make her do something to kill more Japanese people while more more Japanese babies were being born every minute?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Oh, the assumptions you make. And I guess I am supposed to buy that?
    response


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    First, that is over analyzing what is going on. The red circles appear in someone's eyes when ever the Geass is influencing them. Simple as that. Euphemia had red eyes when she was first resisting and then when she was completely controlled. Because of this, its rather futile to try and analyze HOW MUCH the Geass is controlling the person based on their eyes. However, since the red eyes are an indicator that the person is being controlled, the fact that Euphemia STILL had red eyes mean she DID NOT break the Geass before she was shot. You answered your own question again.
    You wrote that the red circles appear when a person is being influenced by the geass, not when the person is being controlled by the geass. If the red circles appear whenever the geass is operating on a person's mind, controlling him or trying to control him, then their presence is proof that the geass either controls his actions or is trying to control his actions. Then you later write about the red circles being present when a person is being controlled by the geass, which is a different meaning a subset of the previous meaning.

    When Euphemia was being taken over by the geass she struggled and after seconds she turned around and when she turned her face back into view there were red circles around her eyes, and then she started to obey the command within a few seconds. So in that case , like most cases, the appearance of the red circles meant that obedience to the command, and thus 100 percent control of the person's actions, was at most just seconds away.

    But in the next episode Euphemia was conscious in the sickbay when Suzaku asked her about the order, and she didn't remember it. Then, after a time, the red circles appeared in her eyes,and she was quiet for a time, and then she asked if Suzaku was Japanese and struggled against the geass. And then she was quiet and peaceful for a time and then the red circles faded away. Euphemia was quiet for most of the time that the red circles were in her eyes.

    In the first case Euphemia became aware of the geass trying to take her over and struggled against it before the red eyes appeared In the second case the red circles appeared before Euphemia became aware of the geass trying to make her kill and began to struggle against it. The difference may be due to the fact that in the second case it was the same gesss command trying to take back control and complete the task.

    It looks like the geass command powered up, and when it reached a certain power level Euphie's eyes got the red circles, and when the power level was high enough Euphemia became aware of being pushed to kill and fought against it, and then the power levels declined until the red circles vanished and continued to decline. But the geass command was not even strong enough for Euphie to notice it and resist it for most of the time that the red circles were in her eyes.

    So I deduce that the red circles appear in the eyes whenever the geass command has even a tiny fraction of full control over a person, which is usually just a second or so before the geass command takes total control of the person. And usually the red circles just vanish when someone dies or completes his task. But when Euphemia's' subconscious mind found a way to free her almost entirely from the geass command, the geass fought back and tried to regain control,and so the red circles remained in her eyes to show that the geass command still had a tiny fraction of control.

    I say that Euphemia did free herself from the control of the geass command. I say she reduced it's control of her to about ten percent of the control it needed to make her do something. She reduced its control so low that she didn't even notice it's faint attempts to get her to act, let alone have any chance of being forced to do what it wanted. It was still there, still trying to get her to kill, but it was too weak for her even to notice it. She did free herself from it for all practical purposes.

    I suppose you want the creators to remake the episode with a more obvious indication that Euphie escaped from the effective control of her geass command, such has having Japanese people walk right in front of Euphie without being shot, or maybe Euphie holding a sign saying "I'm not controlled by the geass any more" to satisfy you that she did escape from the geass.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Second, let me remind you that NUNNALLY RESISTED LELOUCH'S GEASS FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME AS EUPHEMIA!!! So, you can stop praising Euphemia for this, now.
    I suppose that after Nunnally broke her blindness geass she she was vulnerable to Lelouch's geass, now that she could see. So Leoluch at some point late in the series gave her a command to do or not do something. You say that Nunnally resisted for the same amount of time that Euphemia did. I suppose you used a stop watch to time them and were able to determine when the resistance began and ended in each case.

    As you should remember, I praised Euphemia for almost totally breaking her command geass in probably under an hour, while it is possible that Nunnally's subconscious mind struggled for eight years to break her forget-that-you-can-see geass. Thus Euphemia achieved almost total victory about ten thousand times faster than Nunnally's total victory (or was it total? Will Nunnally sometimes revert to forgetting that she can see when her geass regains the upper hand for a short time?). So I praised Euphemia for exceeding Nunnally's impressive feat by ten thousand times.

    So if Lelouch gave Nunnally a geass command which Nunnally, like Euphemia, resisted at first, Nunnally should break that geass command in about ten thousand times as much time as it took Euphemia, or several years. Except that the purpose of the command probably vanished long before that, freeing Nunnally before her subconscious could begin the long, slow task of breaking the command geass.

    Except that a geass command is probably much, much harder to break than Charles's forgetting geasses, so it would probably take Nunnally much longer than ten thousand times as long as Euphemia to break her command geass.

    Some people speculate that Nunnally broke her geass because Charles, who gave it, died. That would mean that Nunnally's subconscious took about a month or so to weaken her geass until she broke it, making the time ratio between Euphemia and Nunnally much less impressive. But Euphemia almost totally defeated and broke her geass while Lelouch was still alive, and so that should compensate for the lesser time difference.


    quote=wolfgirl90;2307361]Yes, but that is not the question, isn't? The question is "Did Euphemia escape the Geass BEFORE she was shot?" The answer is an apparent no.[/quote]

    Yes she did, if escaping does not mean totally crushing and destroying the geass command, but escaping from its control, reducing it to a mere tempting whisper too faint for you to even hear, let alone obey. I say the geass command could no longer make Euphie do anything in the period before Lelouch shot her. She didn't even know that anything was trying to get her to kill.

    She was free of it for all practical purposes, even if not totally free of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    What are talking about? She WAS aware of the Geass command when the red circles were in her eyes when she was with Suzaku. "No! No! I mustn't think that way!"

    She was resisting the whole time that the red circles were there. So your point is moot.
    She was aware of the geass command for only part of the time that the red circles were in her eyes. After the circles appeared Euphie was quiet. After struggling with the geass command Euphie was quiet and peaceful for some time before the red circles went out. For most of the time that the red circles were in her eyes Euphie was not trying to kill Suzaku and not resisting the command, and so it must have been too faint and weak for her to even notice.



    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Euphemia had just been shot in the stomach. She was in an intensive care unit. She just came out of surgery. I think that qualifies as totally helpless, don't you? The girl could barely keep her eyes open. If your only evidence that she must have defeated the Geass (rather than the Geass simply fading away) is that she did not get up and kill Suzaku, slashed his throat with her thumbnail or used some superhuman death grip on him, then you need to fall back to reality and quickly. Killing him with a slash at his throat with her THUMBNAIL?! Yeah, calm down.
    You should know by now that every time you claim that one of my arguments is flawed, I simply improve it and/or come up with a better one. I just (Aug 1, 2009, about 7 pm) thought of a really obvious way the geass command could certainly have made Euphie kill Suazku despite her weakened condition. I feel like such a dope for not thinking about it months ago. You know about that method too, so try to remember it before reading further.

    In the meantime, here are two lesser methods.

    1) I cut and file my fingernails about once a weak, and yet the corners of my thumbnails are so sharp that I use them to cut perforated paper. If Euphie placed her hand on Suzaku's shoulder or had him put it there, she could have made a quick slash with her thumb across his throat which might have cut the skin and possibly severed a vital artery, depending on how dangerous her nails are compared to mine.

    2) Euphie could have asked for a kiss, and for Suzaku to give her some tongue, and then bitten as hard as she could on the tongue, perhaps biting off the tip and perhaps causing Suzaku to bleed to death.

    And the really easy method of killing, which the geass command had made Euphie use before, would be to ask Suzaku to get the captain of the Avalon on the intercom and then order the captain to kill Suzaku and any other Japanese aboard and fire the Avalon's weapons at any ghettos they passed over.

    How could the geass command simply give up trying to make Euphie kill when she was still strong enough to talk and give commands, when she still had her deadliest power? If the geass command could take control of Euphie, why would it give up before or after taking control, when Euphie was still strong enough to talk and thus kill more Japanese people?

    I say the only explanation for the fact that Euphemia didn't order the deaths of Suzaku and other Japanese on her deathbed was that she defeated the geass command when it tried to take back control and that it never gained enough control to make her say what it wanted her to say.

    Euphie managed to defeat and escape from her geass command after perhaps minutes of obeying it, and then when it tried to regain control she defeated it again within seconds, despite being so much weaker physically after being shot, and she would have continued to defeat the geass command each and every time it tried to make her kill.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    On par. As I pointed out, both Euphemia and Nunnally were able to resist Lelouch's Geass and they resisted for the same amount of time. So, that point is, once again, moot.
    I never said that Euphemia resisted her geass command from Lelouch longer than Nunnally did, since I never heard about Nunnally resisting a geass command from Lelouch until reading about it in your post on 07/31/09. I said that Euphemia who resisted her geass command from Lelouch while Nunnally is not known to have resisted her forgetfulness geass from Charles, would have broken her geass command much faster than Nunnally defeated her forgetfulness geass. And I claimed that Euphemia did break her geass command about ten thousand times faster than than Nunnally defeated her forgetfulness geass.

    I claimed that Euphemia's superiority over Nunnally was in the speed of breaking the geass, not in the length of resisting a geass command.

    SigmaSd claims in post 41 that even the gods could not escape Lelouch's geass commands. SigmaSd tries to prove that Euphie could not have escaped the geass command, even though there is very strong evidence that she did escape it, whether or not mere gods could. If the gods could escape from Lelouch's geass commands anywhere near as fast as Euphemia escaped from hers, Lelouch's plans would fail and the series would have a much different ending.

    If the gods could not escape from Lelouch's geass command, Euphemia's eventual defeat of and escape from her geass command makes her not just super human, but super divine, greater than the gods themselves.

    Possibly Nunnally is also greater than the gods, though still much less than Euphemia.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    But she NEVER escaped the control of the Geass. You just answered your own question once again. Also, I think you have completely forgotten about when Lelouch used his Geass on Nunnally, otherwise you wouldn't be making this claim over and over again.
    Yes she did, if escaping does not mean totally crushing and destroying the geass command, but escaping from its control, reducing it to a mere tempting whisper too faint for you to even hear, let alone obey. I say the geass command could no longer make Euphie do anything in the period before Lelouch shot her. She didn't even know that anything was trying to get her to kill. But I suppose you demand more obvious evidence to convince you, like maybe Japanese people walking in front of Euphie without being shot, or perhaps Euphie holding a sign saying "I escaped from my geass command".

    She was free of it for all practical purposes, even if not totally free of it.

    And I didn't forget about Lelouch using his geass on Nunnally, since I never heard about it until reading you post yesterday. And it does not affect my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Did you even WATCH R2? Lelouch used his Geass on Nunnally. Nunnally resisted his Geass for the SAME AMOUNT OF TIME AS EUPHEMIA! So, once again, you can stop comparing the two and stop swooning over Euphemia because she resisted the Geass. Nunnally did the EXACT same thing.
    Why should I watch R2? I hear that episode 25 ends with a confrontation between Lelouch, Kallen, CC, Suzaku and VV, give or take a few characters, and that as the scene fades to black a shot is heard. So I guess a viewer could assume that at least one character was shot and perhaps that the bullet bounced around and killed the others present, which would be a fairly satisfactory ending if the series was considered to be a tragedy and that Lelouch's totally unjustified murder of Euphemia was planned to be Lelouch's fatal error which caused the final slaughter.

    What would I see if I watched R2? Millions killed by the use of F.R.E.I.J.A., the geass directorate massacre, implausible plot elements, characters becoming more and more evil and treacherous, etc. etc. etc.

    And instead of Lelouch possibly being killed by a shot from Suzaku as the scene goes to black, in swift vengeance and/or justice for his inexplicable murder of Euphie, we have Lelouch and hordes of other evil characters surviving for a whole more year and committing more and more crimes, with only a few of the evil characters getting killed, and not one of them after being sentenced to death for his crimes either, and finally Suzaku becoming Lelouch's follower and killing Lelouch only when Lelouch wants him to. If Suzaku still loved Euphemia, or cared about the good of the world, he would at least have whipped off Zero's costume at the end to reveal the costume of some new hero. Instead he let Lelouch's alter ego of Zero, which was just as guilty as the Emperor Lelouch, get all the praise and avoid all the blame for Lelouch's actions.

    Why should anyone who cares about justice watch R2?

    I never said that Euphemia resisted her geass command from Lelouch longer than Nunnally did, since I never heard about Nunnally resisting a geass command from Lelouch until reading about it in your post on 07/31/09. I said that Euphemia who resisted her geass command from Lelouch while Nunnally is not known to have resisted her forgetfulness geass from Charles, would have broken her geass command much faster than Nunnally defeated her forgetfulness geass. And I claimed that Euphemia did break her geass command about ten thousand times faster than Nunnally defeated her forgetfulness geass.

    I claimed that Euphemia's superiority over Nunnally was in the speed of breaking the geass, not in the length of resisting a geass command.

    SigmaSd claims in post 41 that even the gods could not escape Lelouch's geass commands. SigmaSd tries to prove that Euphie could not have escaped the geass command, even though there is very strong evidence that she did escape it, whether or not mere gods could. If the gods could escape from Lelouch's geass commands anywhere near as fast as Euphemia escaped from hers, Lelouch's plans would fail and the series would have a much different ending.

    If the gods could not escape from Lelouch's geass command, Euphemia's eventual defeat of and escape from her geass command makes her not just super human, but super divine, greater than the gods themselves.

    Possibly Nunnally is also greater than the gods, though still much less than Euphemia.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    I am not saying that you can't be a fan of Euphemia (although, you need to calm down with your fandom if you want to be taken seriously). However, if you are going to defend her, and want to have your claims taken seriously, you need to do some research on the character and the series. I mean, did you even watch R2 or did you just forget that Lelouch used his Geass on his sister?
    Remember I was not a fan of Euphemia until I saw Lelouch shoot her when she trusted him, when it would have been perfectly safe to capture her, when capturing her would have been just as good as killing her for any good purposes and goals Lelouch may have had.

    You, wolfgirl90, claimed that because of the geass command Euphie had to be killed and not captured, that she would have been a constant menace to others and the geass command would have made her suffer terribly. Since it seemed obvious to me that Euphie was in a confused state between control by the geass command and her own personality when she talked to Lelouch before being shot, I started this thread to discuss the chance that Euphemia broke free of her geass before being shot by Lelouch.

    And after all the words that have been written it seems pretty obvious to me that the geass command was not controlling Euphemia's actions after the moment she apologized for shooting at Lelouch's nightmare. And it should be accepted by anyone who doesn't demand utterly obvious evidence, such as Japanese people walking right in front of Euphie without being shot, or Euphie holding a sign saying she was now free of geass control.

    And when you said there was no proof that Euphie could have obeyed the geass command and killed Suzaku in the sickbay, and thus the geass command probably realized she couldn't do anything and gave up trying to control her, I realized what everyone should have realized months ago, that Euphemia certainly was strong enough to kill Suzaku with a method that the geass command had made her use before. Therefore the geass command would not have given up trying to take control of her, therefore its failure to make Euphemia kill meant that she defeated and broke her geass command in the sickbay when it tried to regain control. Which is pretty close to proof that she had defeated her geass command earlier when talking to Lelouch, for those who want any more proof than already given.

    And at the same time sigmaSd, trying to prove that Euphie could not possibly have defeated her geass, pointed out that the gods themselves did not resist or break their geass command from Lelouch.

    So the net result that all my opponents have achieved in this thread is to show that Euphemia and Nunnally have done what even the gods couldn't do, and thus in at least one respect are not merely super human, but super divine as well. So it looks like what those who have argued against my position in this thread (which I only started because you, wolfgirl90, insisted that the geass command would control Euphemia for the rest of her life and thus she had to be killed) have achieved is to show that Euphemia is at least as great as my highest claims for her may have been.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    If it seems that I am uninterested in Euphemia, its because I'm not. I have seen every Gundam series, read every book and seen every movie and OVA and I am sorry to say that, as a character, nothing jumps out at me (since Code Geass is Sunrise's first non-Gundam mech series, comparing the two happens a lot). Sunrise and Bandai seem to have templates for characters and they have been doing this for over 30 years. A pacifistic princess? I can name about 6 of those in the Gundam series alone, so Sunrise repeating this pattern in Code Geass with Euphemia does not surprise me nor does it pique my interest.
    Well, I have read countless science fiction stories with brilliant protagonists, antagonists, and other characters, and the only thing which makes Lelouch stand out from most of them, even most of the villains, is his ruthlessness. What about Euphemia's super human and even super divine goodness and resistance to evil geass commands, now that my opponents have proven that she possess those qualities? Does that get your interest? What about someone who is adored by millions for reasons which have nothing to do with why she should be adored by them, and whose family probably mostly despise and sneer at her for the very qualities that make her so superior to everyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Sunrise hasn't let Gundam die, so they are certainly not going to let Code Geass die. This is an over 30 year trend that I am surprised a lot of people haven't picked up on.
    If so, I should write articles proving that their plan all along has been for Euphemia to come back to life and be the protagonist in the sequels.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-08-2009 at 10:05 PM.

  19. #69
    Cold-Blooded IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess has a reputation beyond repute IcePriestess's Avatar
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    ProEuphie, you can't claim that Euphemia is greater than gods do you? And to tell you: Lelouch's commands to gods were very short. They just did what he told them to and the geass worn off. About Nunally. He ordered her to hand him over the Key of Damocles. She resisted at first, but handed the key to Lelouch and the Geass worn off. Taking Euphemia. Her command was much more longer. So It wouldn't be suprise if she REsisted IT A LITTLE, but remember: She firstly started slaughtering Japanese when she went to the stage with gun and said: People, can you all die? Or something like that. So I think that if Nunally's or God's commands, that they must have acomplished would have been longer, maybe they would have resisted it.
    It is stupid to be afraid to die, but the most stupid thing is to be afraid to live.

  20. #70
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    ok proEuphy if what you say about Lelouch is true then why didnt he kill Suzaku? Seriously he was the biggest threat to Lelouch than Lacu... I mean Euphy ever was, I guess Lelouch must've spent all his friendship points on saving Suzaku and ran out of them when it came to Euphy LOL and she was both friend and family.

  21. #71
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcePriestess View Post
    ProEuphie, you can't claim that Euphemia is greater than gods do you? And to tell you: Lelouch's commands to gods were very short. They just did what he told them to and the geass worn off. About Nunally. He ordered her to hand him over the Key of Damocles. She resisted at first, but handed the key to Lelouch and the Geass worn off. Taking Euphemia. Her command was much more longer. So It wouldn't be suprise if she REsisted IT A LITTLE, but remember: She firstly started slaughtering Japanese when she went to the stage with gun and said: People, can you all die? Or something like that. So I think that if Nunally's or God's commands, that they must have acomplished would have been longer, maybe they would have resisted it.
    Maybe.

    I didn't set out to show that Euphie was greater than the gods. I simply showed that not only did she resist her command at first, but she eventually broke it so it could no longer control her. She did that first right before Lelouch shot her, and then again in the sickbay when the geass command tried to take over again.

    Part of my post # 68 shows that there was a method of killing that Euphemia was still strong enough to use in the sickbay. Thus the geass did not abandon control of her because she was too weak to kill anymore. The geass knew that she was still strong enough to kill. The only possible explanation for her not killing is that she defeated her geass in the sickbay, and almost certainly she defeated it earlier, before Lelouch shot her.

    It is very obvious. I kick myself for not thinking of it months ago. So think about it for a while and then check my post # 68.

    SigmaSd pointed out that the gods could not resist Lelouch's geass command, in an attempt to show that it was impossible for Euphie to break hers. But the evidence that Euphie did break her geass command is clear to anyone who doesn't demand such overt evidence as Japanese people walking right in front of Euphie without being shot, or her carrying a sign saying "I am now free from the geass command". So SigmaSd has merely shown how great Nunnally's and Euphie's feats were when Nunnally broke a forgetting geass and Euphemia broke her geass command.

    PS. I didn't see the second season. But unless Lelouch told the gods to kill themselves, or never bother humanity again, or forget about Lelouch, or something similar, they could have simply returned to earth and did whatever they wanted to Lelouch to punish him for daring to defy them. A "never return" or "forget about" command might possibly require constant obedience, and thus be similar to Euphie's "kill the Japanese" command. Euphie broke her command within less than an hour probably, and the gods did not break theirs for the rest of the series. Unless they were free to do whatever they wanted to Lelouch but just didn't bother for some reason.

    P.P.S. And wouldn't gods have time travel abilities? Wouldn't Lelouch have to give them some geass they had to continually obey to keep them from using time travel to prevent him from giving them a geas command? The gods would seem certain to get back at Lelouch & co. for giving them a geass, unless Lelouch gave them some geass to leave him alone forever (perhaps cut from the episode for lack of time), or else they didn't care about the issue very much. But if they didn't care very much Lelouch could have simply asked them to do what he wanted without using the geass on them. Or maybe this was part of some elaborate plot to get Lelouch to give the gods a geass command to do something they wanted to do but couldn't for some reason (perhaps the even bigger gods wouldn't let them?). Thinking about that makes me even gladder I didn't watch R2.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-02-2009 at 05:06 PM.

  22. #72
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    ok proEuphy if what you say about Lelouch is true then why didnt he kill Suzaku? Seriously he was the biggest threat to Lelouch than Lacu... I mean Euphy ever was, I guess Lelouch must've spent all his friendship points on saving Suzaku and ran out of them when it came to Euphy LOL and she was both friend and family.
    So you assume that Lelouch would have killed Euphemia because she was a threat to his plans, and you ask why he didn't kill Suzaku who you think was a bigger threat to his plans.

    I don't think that Lelouch killed Euphemia because she was a threat to his plans. Lelouch's other attackers and defenders may think they know why he killed Euphemia, but I have thought of dozens of reasons why Lelouch might have killed Euphemia (and that's not counting my Letterman-style list of silly reasons) but I don't claim to know if Lelouch killed her because of any one or combination of those reasons. His actual motives, unlike many of his possible motives, are a mystery to me.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-02-2009 at 04:49 PM.

  23. #73
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    She stopped firing at Lelouch's nightmare when she recognized Lelouch/Zero. Lelouch did not talk to her before shooting her, I think. But why did the geass command let her talk about the SAZ instead of making her her ask for Zero's help? Why did it let her just stand around thinking instead of making her run off to look for more victims? If it controlled her why didn't make her do something to kill more Japanese people while more more Japanese babies were being born every minute?
    Of course Lelouch was talking to Euphemia before he shot her; he was talking to her pretty much the whole time that he was there. As I have said before, one's personality is not changed while they are being controlled by the Geass and memories are not changed until after the Geass wears off. She did act with haste in trying to kill the Japanese but only when someone or something was trying to stop her from doing so (that is the case for everybody). At first, she just calmly asked the Japanese to "kindly kill themselves", an interesting request to make if you are in a hurry or being pressed to carry out something. She could have just skipped that and got right to killing, but Euphemia, being the polite person that she is, would ask first. She even stopped long enough to give detailed orders to her soldiers to kill the Japanese (again, an interesting action for one to take if they must act as if they are in a hurry).

    When her gun jammed, she hurriedly picked up another (all the while saying "They [the Japanese] have to die"), since the gun was effectively stopping her from doing what she needed to do.

    She didn't do anything when Lelouch showed up because he is her half-brother. They were close and they were even going to work on the SAZ together (until...well, you know). So, to her, Lelouch wasn't doing anything to stop her.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You wrote that the red circles appear when a person is being influenced by the geass, not when the person is being controlled by the geass. If the red circles appear whenever the geass is operating on a person's mind, controlling him or trying to control him, then their presence is proof that the geass either controls his actions or is trying to control his actions. Then you later write about the red circles being present when a person is being controlled by the geass, which is a different meaning.
    Noooo...what I said was, the red circles are simply an indicator that the person in question is being influenced by the Geass, not HOW MUCH they are being influenced, since they appear when the person is being controlled and when the person is resisting. You deduced that the red circles appear when the Geass has a tiny fraction of control, not when they have total dominance. However, since they appear at all times while the person is being controlled (no matter how much they are being controlled), that point is moot. And because of that, Euphemia still having red eyes means that she was still being controlled by the Geass before Lelouch shot her, no matter how much control she might have been under at the time.

    A kid ALMOST running away does not mean that he ran away. A prisoner ALMOST breaking out of jail does not mean that he got out. A slave ALMOST getting away does not mean that he escaped. So, Euphemia ALMOST escaping the Geass does not she that she broke it. Its all or nothing. IF she had ALMOST escaped the Geass, it means that she DIDN'T escape the Geass, which, again, is what you asked about. She either completely broke the control of the Geass or she didn't (in which case, she would still be controlled). Since red circles in the eyes means that she was still being controlled by the Geass (no matter how much control or resistance may have been there), she never escaped the Geass, especially since it popped back up again before she died.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Euphemia was quiet for most of the time that the red circles were in her eyes.
    No she was not. She was talking when the red circles started to appear and was STILL TALKING when they stayed:
    "No! No! I mustn't think that way..."
    And she was still talking when they went away.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You say that Nunnally resisted for the same amount of time that Euphemia did. I suppose you used a stop watch to time them and were able to determine when the resistance began and ended in each case.
    Its called a DVD timer. Every DVD player has one. Even YouTube videos have timers on them.

    I counted the time from when they showed resistance (NOT when their eyes turned red, since, as I have said, red eyes do not show how much the person is being controlled or if they are resisting) to when they showed obedience to the given command. In each case, it was 15 seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I never said that Euphemia resisted her geass command from Lelouch longer than Nunnally did, since I never heard about Nunnally resisting a geass command from Lelouch until reading about it in your post on 07/31/09. I said that Euphemia who resisted her geass command from Lelouch while Nunnally is not known to have resisted her forgetfulness geass from Charles, would have broken her geass command much faster than Nunnally defeated her forgetfulness geass. And I claimed that Euphemia did break her geass command about ten thousand times faster than than Nunnally defeated her forgetfulness geass.
    But that's the problem. You never saw R2, so therefore, you didn't know that Lelouch used his Geass on Nunnally or that Nunnally resisted Lelouch's Geass and resisted it for the same amount of time that Euphemia did. The only thing that you knew was that Euphemia resisted the Geass "better" than Nunnally by "breaking it", a claim that really has no base, since, as I have pointed out numerous times, Euphemia never broke the Geass that was placed upon her. However, since you are missing almost half a series worth of information, you are at quite the disadvantage when it comes to arguing your points.
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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Maybe.

    PS. I didn't see the second season. But unless Lelouch told the gods to kill themselves, or never bother humanity again, or forget about Lelouch, or something similar, they could have simply returned to earth and did whatever they wanted to Lelouch to punish him for daring to defy them. A "never return" or "forget about" command might possibly require constant obedience, and thus be similar to Euphie's "kill the Japanese" command. Euphie broke her command within less than an hour probably, and the gods did not break theirs for the rest of the series. Unless they were free to do whatever they wanted to Lelouch but just didn't bother for some reason.

    P.P.S. And wouldn't gods have time travel abilities? Wouldn't Lelouch have to give them some geass they had to continually obey to keep them from using time travel to prevent him from giving them a geas command? The gods would seem certain to get back at Lelouch & co. for giving them a geass, unless Lelouch gave them some geass to leave him alone forever (perhaps cut from the episode for lack of time), or else they didn't care about the issue very much. But if they didn't care very much Lelouch could have simply asked them to do what he wanted without using the geass on them. Or maybe this was part of some elaborate plot to get Lelouch to give the gods a geass command to do something they wanted to do but couldn't for some reason (perhaps the even bigger gods wouldn't let them?). Thinking about that makes me even gladder I didn't watch R2.
    I don't actually remember what words Lelouch said to gods, but he ordered them to "kill" Marianne and Charles(Of course you don't know that she was alive, do you?). And at that time he ordered this, his Geass adapted to another eye and he had 2 geass eyes, which means he became even more stronger than he already was. Since he used his geass on Nunally with stronger geass, she managed to resist it a little at the beginning, but obeyed in the end. So the point is that Euphemia encountered only "weak" Geass of Lelouch.
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  25. #75
    Senior Member Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko has a reputation beyond repute Luluko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    But other people have complained about my long uninterrupted texts.
    We complained that you didn't separate the walls of text into paragraphs. Now that you do, we can at least read your xbox huge comments without the need to poke our eyes out.


    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You say that Euphemia tried to fight Kallen? Perhaps you should check my post # 69 in the forum "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" and maybe change your mind.

    Well, in my copy of episode 23 Kallen bumps into Euphemia and Euphie says something like "Are you Japanese? How dare you attack Princess Euphemia?" And Kallen says something like: "Aha! I found you!" (pleased at her clever detective work, no doubt) And Euphemia says something like "You're the girl from the Island", recognizing Kallen's voice (and not sounding very angry, despite Kallen shooting a machine gun at her the last time they met, instead sounding pleased to meet someone she encountered before) And then Kallen prepares to attack and says something like "I got you now!" and Lelouch interrupts.

    I don't see anything in this to give much clue about what Euphie plans to do about Kallen, a Black Knight who looks like a Britannian, and no hint that Euphie intends to fight her as you claim.

    Euphemia later apologized to Lelouch/Zero for harmlessly shooting a machine gun at his armored nightmare when she thought it had a Japanese pilot. That leaves two possibilities:

    1) Euphie would not have shot a dinky little hand-held machine gun at Kallen's nightmare, let alone done anything more likely to harm it and the pilot, once she recognized Kallen as a girl who did not look like a Japanese and thus was not covered by the geass command.

    2) Euphemia would have attacked Kallen's nightmare but was sorry for harmlessly shooting a machine gun at Zero's nightmare just a few minutes later, and so the geass command was rapidly losing its power to control her in those few minutes.

    Either possibility is evidence against your general argument.

    Look at your copy of the episode, and refresh your memory, then read my post # 69 in "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" and then think about whether you want to change your statement.

    P.S. The bit about Euphemia's older model nightmare being easily disarmed indicates that you might possibly be implying that Kallen disarmed Euphie's nightmare. If so you really need to watch the episode again.
    1. I said they encountered, not that Kallen and Euphemia began to fight on the KF's. And yes, Euphemia recognized Kallen from Kaminejima, so what? She was still japanese, if she had the chance, she would have attacked her.

    2. You can't deny Euphemia had and older KF compared to the Guren or the Gawain.

    3. I'm latin, I saw Code Geass with spanish subs. I'm not going to argue about what they said too deeply because of 'lol translations'.

    4. The Geass command was not losing power since Euphemia knew that Zero= Lelouch ergo not japanese. The command was directed only to kill japanese. Although you can say that Lelouch (and Kallen, see point 1 again) was in danger as well since the order forced her to eliminate or incapacitate those who could stop her from acomplishing it*: She shot Darlton when he tried to reason with her.

    *It works like chain logic: In order to kill the japanese, I must take out of the way those who want to stop me too.

    A few other things:

    - The red light in the eyes is something to let the audience know that the person is/was under the command of the Geass. Is not something other characters can see in the series.

    - Lelouch told the "Gods" to not stop the passage of time. Not exactly to kill Charles and Marianne. The Gods only took them out because they were against Lelouch's order. Yet again, chain logic.
    Last edited by Luluko; 08-03-2009 at 03:09 PM.
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