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Thread: *SPOILERS* Did Euphie Escape...

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    Default *SPOILERS* Did Euphie Escape...

    Original thread title: "Did Euphie Escape the Power of Her Geass Before Lelouch shot Her?"
    Changed to remove the spoiler. -Aku (悪の光)

    This is my post # 30 from Spoilers Warning: Code Geass friends to foes.


    Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 /

    .....I never said that a Geass will never wear off no matter what. What I DID say was that a Geass command won't wear off until the command is completed, and that is IF the command can be "completed" at all. For example, Lelouch's command for Suzaku to "live" has no time condition on it and was still in effect for over a year. A command like "kill the Japanese" has no time condition either. It has to be completed before the Geass can wear off.

    A Geass command can be broken by shear willpower but only one person has been able to do this: Nunnally. Euphemia resisted it but fell to it anyway, so there is no point in saying "keep Euphemia in prison until she breaks the Geass" because she already proved that she wasn't able to. She only came out of the Geass when she was dying and it is not clear what caused that to happen; either a) she cared about Suzaku to much to hurt him or b) she was physically unable to carry out the command, as per the rules of the Geass.....

    By the way, we are getting off topic.[/quoteI]

    You are comparing Nunnally's apples with Euphemia's oranges when you imply that Nunnally had more of what Euphemia used to resist the geass. Nunnally used will power to break her geass and may have had much more than Euphemia. Euphemia resisted with her superior "won't power", her resistance to killing. Since Nunnally used F.L.E.I.J.A. weapons without being forced by a geass command she was obviously inferior to Euphemia in resistance to killing, in "won't power".

    Why do you say that Euphemia resisted but was unable to break the geass command while Nunnally was able to break her geass? Why do you assume that Euphemia, the only person known to resist the geass, was permanently defeated by her geass?

    Suppose that you believed that being blind was a crime that deserved the death penalty. Suppose you believed that Nunnually should be shot immediately for becoming blind. Suppose that some Britannian shared that belief and shot Nunnally a few minutes after she went blind. Then we would never have known that Nunnally had the will power to break her geass after eight long years.

    Nunnally broke her geass after eight years. And possibly Nunnally's subconscious was attacking the geass for all of those eight years, wearing it down until finally Nunnally could break though and free herself with a tremendous effort. And possibly Nunnally's geass was running out of "energy" by itself, wearing down after years and years.

    But is there any evidence that Nunnally resisted her geass at first? No.

    If someone who didn't resist at first could wear down the geass after eight years how soon could Euphemia's subconscious wear down her geass?

    Maybe in about eight to eighty minutes. Which would be about 91,476 to 914,760 times as fast as Nunnally (oops, it would be only 52,596 to 525,960 times as fast. My calculator had a glitch). Just before being shot Euphemia seemed to be going from being controlled by the geass to her normal self.

    When Euphemia was shooting at fleeing Japanese people, her intense resistance to killing was not strong enough to defeat the geass, indicating that her geass command was still very strong. (Although possibly her resistance to killing might have made her aim poorly). A minute or two later, the geass was so weak it could not stop her normal self from emerging to socialize. The power of the geass command was plummeting during those minutes.

    When she recognized Kallen and said that she was the girl from the island, Euphemia was probably not totally controlled by the geass, since a mere "not a target" would do for the geass. It sounded more like Euphemia, interested to meet someone she remembered.

    When she recognized Zero's mask she apologized for thinking he was Japanese. Thus she still remembered the massacre. A little later she asked his help to administer the SAZ. If she remembered the massacre she would have realized the zone would be deserted and there would be no need for anybody's help in ruling it. So she had forgotten the massacre. When Lelouch shot her she asked why. Obviously she did not remember doing anything that would make Zero want to shoot her.

    When a geass command stops the person does not remember what they did while controlled by it. Euphemia was forgetting what she did while controlled by the geass, so she was probably rapidly escaping from the control of the geass.

    Her superior "won't power", which enabled her to resist the geass at first, continued to attack it subconsciously. In about a mere hour it was so weak that merely seeing someone familiar was enough to let her true personality emerge from the control of the geass. Or else the geass command was so weakened by the struggle to overcome Euphemia's resistance that it only had enough power left for about a hour. Either way, the geass command was almost totally defeated and didn't have much time left.

    When Euphemia on her deathbed asked if Suzaku was Japanese the geass took advantage of her weakened state to flare up again for a second or two. It had not been in control continuously since Lelouch gave the command, but was trying to regain a lost control.

    I say this theory fits the facts at least as well as yours does.

    It is said that despair is a deadly sin. That means that thinking that you are already damned and there is no hope of successful repentance will get you damned. It means that giving up on life and committing suicide is a sin. And it also means that giving up on somebody else and deciding they are better off dead is a sin. It is a sin when committed by old-time Japanese who looked upon the sick, the wounded, and the insane as damaged goods not worth saving. It is a sin when committed by Lelouch in the Code Geass universe. It is a sin when committed by Wolfgirl90 in our universe, where her words might influence the actions of other people [/quote]
    Last edited by Aku no Hikari; 12-06-2010 at 05:16 PM. Reason: removed the spoiler from the title

  2. #2
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Wow. Thank you proEuphie for calling me out like that. You couldn't have just asked the question in a generic fashion without pointing me out (and without the horrendous spelling errors)? Whatever.

    1. The rules of the Geass state that a Geass command won't take effect if a person is physically or mentally incapable (whether by intellegence, values, etc) of doing so. While Euphemia resisted, apparently she was not mentally incapable of carrying out the genocide of thousands of people, so the Geass command took over anyway. That command goes against everything she believes in, but she still carried it out. Nunnally couldn't have resisted the Geass because she was already weak (she was already shot in the legs), young and a command like "I am going to change your memories to make you go blind" is not nearly as mentally scarring as "kill the Japanese", which Euphemia still carried despite her supposed superior "won't power".

    2. It would be sad if Nunnally was killed simply for being blind. However, going blind would be a victimless crime. Going on a killing spree is not a victimless crime by any stretch of the imagination and certainly one I would not want to wait EIGHT YEARS to see if this person would be cured of.

    3. Euphemia was able to show that she still had the ability to carry on a conversation and kept her personality while under the Geass (like everyone else). Being the nice and polite girl that she is, she politely asked the Japanese if they would kindly kill themselves. When they didn't, she killed them instead. She was able to talk to Dalton, but shot him because he wanted to stop her. She was able to give the command to the soldiers to kill the Japanese. She was able to talk to Lelouch because he was close to her. So, that is not a sign that the Geass was weakening.

    4. A subject's memories are supressed only after the command is over, not during (unless that is part of the command itself). Euphemia still remembered that she asked Zero to help her with the SAZ, however, at the same time, she knows that she is supposed to be killing the Japanese, so these things conflict with each other (and she knows this). When she was shot, the Geass broke since she was no longer able to carry out the command (a person can't do much of anything after being shot in the stomach) and all memories of the massacre were supressed in her memory.

    Also, I don't know where you are going with the whole "sin" comment. Like what you did in the beginning, you did not put it in a generic way; you basically singled me out. "It is a sin when committed by Wolfgirl90 in our universe, where her words might influence the actions of other people". What exactly is that supposed to mean? What are you trying to say? If it sounds like I am taking this personally, it is because I am. I get enough crap from people getting in my face about sinning (due to my religion), that I do not need to hear it from you. Yes, I do think that Euphemia was better off dead rather than continuing to kill thousands upon thousands of people or rotting away in a jail cell (as she is guilty is mass murder and I hope that Euphemia would have enough honor in her body to own up to what she did instead of living a pampered live with her sister had she not died). But guess what? She was already dead when I made that comment and me saying that was not going to change anything (she is a cartoon character, so it certainly wouldn't have changed anything). I have my opinion and you have yours.
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    she was absolutely exausted right before she died, i imagine it took an incredible amount of concentration just to articulate words when she was with Suzaku at the end...

    which means she prbly could only focus on one thing at a time, so i say no she didnt, she just couldnt think straight...


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    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Wow. Thank you proEuphie for calling me out like that. You couldn't have just asked the question in a generic fashion without pointing me out (and without the horrendous spelling errors)? Whatever.

    1. The rules of the Geass state that a Geass command won't take effect if a person is physically or mentally incapable (whether by intellegence, values, etc) of doing so. While Euphemia resisted, apparently she was not mentally incapable of carrying out the genocide of thousands of people, so the Geass command took over anyway. That command goes against everything she believes in, but she still carried it out. Nunnally couldn't have resisted the Geass because she was already weak (she was already shot in the legs), young and a command like "I am going to change your memories to make you go blind" is not nearly as mentally scarring as "kill the Japanese", which Euphemia still carried despite her supposed superior "won't power".

    2. It would be sad if Nunnally was killed simply for being blind. However, going blind would be a victimless crime. Going on a killing spree is not a victimless crime by any stretch of the imagination and certainly one I would not want to wait EIGHT YEARS to see if this person would be cured of.

    3. Euphemia was able to show that she still had the ability to carry on a conversation and kept her personality while under the Geass (like everyone else). Being the nice and polite girl that she is, she politely asked the Japanese if they would kindly kill themselves. When they didn't, she killed them instead. She was able to talk to Dalton, but shot him because he wanted to stop her. She was able to give the command to the soldiers to kill the Japanese. She was able to talk to Lelouch because he was close to her. So, that is not a sign that the Geass was weakening.

    4. A subject's memories are supressed only after the command is over, not during (unless that is part of the command itself). Euphemia still remembered that she asked Zero to help her with the SAZ, however, at the same time, she knows that she is supposed to be killing the Japanese, so these things conflict with each other (and she knows this). When she was shot, the Geass broke since she was no longer able to carry out the command (a person can't do much of anything after being shot in the stomach) and all memories of the massacre were supressed in her memory.

    Also, I don't know where you are going with the whole "sin" comment. Like what you did in the beginning, you did not put it in a generic way; you basically singled me out. "It is a sin when committed by Wolfgirl90 in our universe, where her words might influence the actions of other people". What exactly is that supposed to mean? What are you trying to say? If it sounds like I am taking this personally, it is because I am. I get enough crap from people getting in my face about sinning (due to my religion), that I do not need to hear it from you. Yes, I do think that Euphemia was better off dead rather than continuing to kill thousands upon thousands of people or rotting away in a jail cell (as she is guilty is mass murder and I hope that Euphemia would have enough honor in her body to own up to what she did instead of living a pampered live with her sister had she not died). But guess what? She was already dead when I made that comment and me saying that was not going to change anything (she is a cartoon character, so it certainly wouldn't have changed anything). I have my opinion and you have yours.
    I am sorry if I offended you. And I'm sorry about the misspellings too -- you should have seen my post before I corrected it. And now for the response:

    1. The rules of geass do not state anything. They are not a book. We can not quote them and discuss the precise meaning of their wording. They are what can be deduced with greater or lesser accuracy from what is seen on the show.

    Many people would refuse to kill one or more people of their own free will or in obedience to orders. Many other people will kill people for various reasons. In Code Geass hundreds or thousands of Britannian soldiers and Black Knights obey orders to kill, even to commit massacres.

    But almost no real person obeys an order to kill himself except as an honorable way to avoid disgrace and execution. The Britannian soldiers who Lelouch commands to kill themselves in the first episode are obeying orders to massacre, yet they would not obey orders to kill themselves, But the geass makes them do something that they are much more reluctant to do than they are to massacre.

    If Euphemia did not have a lot more "won't power" than those soldiers she would have followed the order to kill without a struggle. Nunnally, who is a much better person than those solders, was willing to kill by using atomic weapons when she was fifteen and had led a very inactive life until recently. Euphemia seriously believed that she could not kill when she was sixteen and had some experience as a military and political leader. Clearly Euphemia has more "won't power" when it comes to killing than Nunnally. So Nunnally could not possibly have broken her geass using more of what Euphemia used to resist her geass. Nunnally used something else.
    And Nunnally would not have resisted a geass command to massacre as much as Euphemia, or at all.

    By the way, a seven-year-old child might resist going blind more than killing, since he or she might not understand death and killing as clearly as not being able to see.

    My point is if Nunnally didn't resist the geass command at first but broke it after eight years, Euphemia who did resist her geass command at first could be expected to do at least as well as Nunnally and defeat her geass command in eight years or much less.

    2 I am glad that unlike many real historical people you agree that Nunnally should not have been abandoned to starve or even killed for going blind. But why do you accuse Euphemia of committing a crime? Euphemia was as innocent of the killing spree as the unborn child of a pregnant killer would be. Though out history countless women sentenced to death have tried to get pregnant to delay their executions for nine months, because even the harsh and cruel laws of their eras didn't allow killing innocent unborn children even to rid the world of vile prostitutes, pickpockets, counterfeiters, and thieves.

    You say you wouldn't want to wait eight years to see if a killer got cured. Neither would I, if the only choices were to kill her or to let her go free to continue killing and maybe even give her some more ammo while you were at it. But there is a third choice, these new institutions called prisons and insane asylums where dangerous people are kept until they die or are released because they are believed to be no longer dangerous.

    Once Euphemia was locked up she would be much less dangerous than any of the many thousands of Britannian soldiers and Black Knights who were free and given access to dangerous weapons and might be ordered at any time to commit a massacre.

    Where I live there was a famous killer, Joseph Kallinger, who supposedly thought he had a divine mission to exterminate the whole human race. He was locked up for twenty years and never escaped to kill anyone, and his young son who helped in hs crimes was eventually released and is living somewhere under a different name. Charles Manson has been in custody for almost forty years and never escaped to kill anyone.

    3 You say that people obeying a geass can recognize other people and carry on a conversation with them, so Euphemia's talking to Lelouch doesn't mean that she was out of the geass. When Euphemia was clearly controlled by the geass everything she did was to accomplish the purpose to "kill the Japanese". How is inviting Zero/Lelouch to help administer the zone going to kill any Japanese? Isn't that a waste of time for someone compelled to slaughter them?

    If Euphemia was under a compulsion to kill only the Japanese in the stadium or only the Japanese in the SAZ she would have to hurry because they were doing their best to get away. Soon they would be out of the stadium and out of the Zone and she and the soldiers wouldn't be able to tell the target Japanese from the non target Japanese.

    If Euphemia was compelled to kill all the Japanese the geass had a big problem. Assume that there were 50,000,000 to 200,000,000 Japanese and the average lifespan was seventy years. Thus the replacement rate should be about 714,285.7 to 2,857,142.8 births per year, or 1.3580608 to 5.4322433 per minute. If Japanese babies were being born between one half to twice the replacement rate there would be 0.6790304 to 10.864486 births per minute. Euphemia would have to kill Japanese at least that fast to ensure that they would all be killed or die of old age within the next seventy years.

    If you assume that 50,000,000 people were killed during the six years of World war II that would average 8,333,333.3 per year, 22,815.423 per day, 950.642.62 per hour,and 15.844043 per minute. So the greatest slaughter in history, fought by armies numbering in the tens of millions, killed people 1.4583334 to 23.333332 times as fast as Euphemia and her puny force would have to kill the Japanese just to keep up with their birthrate.

    I say that Euphemia was mainly free of the geass when she talked to Lelouch. You say that the geass controlled her when she talked to Lelouch. If the geass controlled her, why did it let her waste time talking to Lelouch about a topic which had nothing to do with killing the Japanese? Why didn't it make her ask if she could borrow his nightmare?

    I am glad to see that you are not one the people who imagine that if captured Euphemia would be "screaming like a foaming nutcase while she tries desperately hard trying to kill people" and that being unable to kill Japanese would be a torment to her. I am glad to see that you disagree and think that being under the control of the gesss is an easy compulsion, that it kindly gives its subjects breaks for personal matters even when it has an almost impossible task and valuable time is being wasted. If Euphemia was under the control of the geass when she talked to Lelouch, clearly she would not suffer if she was kept out of sight of Japanese and had non-Japanese people (such as non-Japanese newsmen at the stadium who could be given geass commands to obey Lelouch) to guard her and eventually become her friends.

    4 You say that when Euphemia talked to Lelouch she remembered that she was supposed to be killing Japanese. I agree that she did when she apologized for thinking that Zero was Japanese, but I think that she forgot it by the time that she asked Zero's help in administering the Zone. If she remembered anything about massacring and chasing Japanese she would know she wouldn't need Zero's help.

    Your statement that she still remembered the massacre is puzzling. Can you read the minds of fictional television characters or did I miss a scene where a brave non-Japanese newsman ran up to Euphemia and asked her if she remembered massacring the Japanese (surely the first question he would ask in those circumstances)?

    You say that the geass broke and Euphemia forgot what she did when she was shot. I suppose you claim that the geass reactivated briefly when she asked Suzaku if he was Japanese. So you abandon the claim that it controlled her from the time Lelouch spoke it up to when she asked Suzaku if he was Japanese, but still claim that it was in control up to when she was shot? I think that asking Lelouch to administer the zone is proof that she didn't remember the massacre and thus was out of the control of the geass at that moment.

    And if the geass was in control of Euphemia when she was shot it must have been released control very fast and Euphemia must have realized that Lelouch shot her really fast. She asked him why while she was still falling backwards.

    I am sorry that you are offended at being accused of sinning. But I can't help thinking that it is a bad deed to ever advocate the more violent or brutal option, even when discussing fictional events. A person who chooses violence in real life does so as a result of many influences over his lifetime, each of which makes him a tiny bit more or less likely to commit violence. I think it is better to be one of the anti-violence influences.

    How can you say that Euphemia was guilty of mass murder? Even under the harsh laws of three hundred years ago, many accused pirates got reduced sentences (imprisonment instead of hanging) or were acquitted when they showed that they had been forced to join the pirates. And yet the force that was used against them was not nearly as strong, nor as continuous, as the force that forced Euphemia to kill. [/quote]
    Tens or hundreds of thousands of accused witches were tortured to confess to their imaginary crimes and to accuse other innocent people of being witches. Were they guilty of perjury and murder because they gave into the torture and named innocent people as witches or were they helpless to resist the tortures? And did the geass torture Euphemia by stimulating the pain centers in her brain to make her submit?
    I have read of a thirteen-year-old boy who was accused of witchcraft and thus faced with the choices of admitting guilt and being executed or claiming innocence, being tortured until he admitted guilt, and being executed. But he found a third choice by admitting that he had been at the sabbats he was accused of being at but claiming he had been bewitched and was not there of his own free will, and so escaped execution. Do you think it would have been better if the judges had rejected his "not guilty by reason of being bewitched" defense and sentenced him to death? If not you must admit that in the world of Code Geass Euphemia really was "not guilty by reason of being bewitched". 03/27/09 [/quote]
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-27-2009 at 11:27 PM.

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    ..........no her eyes were still glowing, so no

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    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    ..........no her eyes were still glowing, so no
    My compliments on such a short and to the point post. I regret that I will be unable to adequately refute your argument in so few words.

    Even if her irises were still circled with red up to the moment Lelouch shot her, that would not prove that she was totally under the control of the geass until then.

    1) The time it took her to fall back hardly seems like enough time for the geass to leave her and her to realize that Lelouch shot her before she said or thought "Why, Lelouch?" while still falling backwards. Unless you suppose that beside possibly being super humanly good and innocent she was also a super humanly fast thinker.

    It should not take someone long to realize that person X shot them if they feel a strong impact and see person X pointing a gun at them, but it should takes at least a large percentage of a second.

    The scene may be shown in slow motion but we can assume that Euphemia was falling at 1G acceleration and had a fraction of a second for the geass to end control, and for her normal personality to awake, for her to realize that Lelouch shot her, and to say or think "why, Lelouch?" while still in the air.

    The time factor makes it far more likely that she was partially free of the geass control when Lelouch shot her and that her normal self was partially conscious when Lelouch pointed the gun at her and shot her. Thus she would have seen him shoot her instead of deducing it between being hit and hitting the ground.

    2) In her death scene Euphemia was conscious and talked before her irises became encircled with red. Then after a time she said "Suzaku, you're Japanese, aren't you?" and then she said that she mustn't do such a terrible thing, clearly resisting the efforts of the geass to get her to try to kill Suzaku. Then Euphemia was peaceful for a while, even though her irises were still encircled in red. Clearly she wasn't trying to kill Suzaku or fighting the compulsion, so clearly it wasn't working on her very hard. Then the circles around her irises finally faded away.

    Clearly the geass was never strong enough to get her to act, and for most of the time that Euphemia's irises were encircled she was peacefully unaware of any impulse to kill Suzaku.

    So in that scene Euphemia's irises were encircled whenever the geass command had even a slight degree of control over Euphemia, even though that degree of control was not enough to make her act or even for her to be aware of it and resist. We might assume that Euphemia's eyes were encircled with red whenever the geass command had at least five, or ten, or fifteen, percent of full control over her.

    And if her irises would be encircled with red in the scene where Lelouch shot her whenever the geass command had at least five, or ten, or fifteen, percent of full control over her, then it might have had a lot less than one hundred percent of full control over Euphemia when Lelouch shot her. It might have had seventy five percent, or fifty five percent, or forty percent, or twenty five percent, or fifteen percent, or whatever.

    Euphemia might have regained almost full control by the time that Lelouch shot her without the red circles around her irises fading away, if they behaved in that scene the way they behaved in her deathbed scene.

    "The eyes do not have it". They are not decisive proof that the geass was in full control of Euphemia up to the moment when Lelouch shot her.

    3) When someone controlled by one of Lelouch's geass commands finishes his task and returns to normal, he forgets what he did when controlled by the geass. Euphemia was shooting at fleeing Japanese when Kallen interrupted her. Clearly at that point The geass was still strong enough to overcome her intense reluctance to kill.

    A few minutes later Euphemia seem to succeed in reloading her machine gun and then recognized Zero, who she knew was her beloved brother Lelouch, and said she was sorry she thought he was Japanese. Clearly she still remembered that her mission was killing Japanese people.

    Then she asked Zero to help her administer the SAZ. Clearly at this point the geass command could not stop her wasting time with something which had nothing to do with killing Japanese. And clearly she had forgotten the massacre. Then she said "No, that's not right." At this point she remembered vaguely that the SAZ was no longer the plan, but she probably didn't remember the massacre clearly. Then she was silent, probably wondering what was going on and trying to remember how she got there.

    When Lelouch shot her she asked why, and so probably had totally forgotten the massacre.

    Thus in a few minutes the power of the geass command over Euphemia seemed to plummet from full or almost full control to almost zero control, no doubt due to the continued resistance of her subconscious mind, which probably found an effective means of attacking the geass during those minutes.

    4) Nunnally broke her geass induced blindness by a desperate act of will after eight years. I believe her subconscious mind, desiring to see, fought against the geass all those eight years and weakened it until Nunnally was finally able to make a strong conscious effort to see and broke it.

    I believe that Euphemia, who resisted her geass command at first, would have worn down and defeated her geass in much less time than Nunnally, who did not resist her geass at first.

    Euphemia might have broken her geass command in half the time it took Nunnally, and thus when Euphie was twenty. Then she might have had forty to eighty years of life free from the control of the geass, and much of it might have been in freedom from confinement once the authorities decided she had been cured.

    Or she might have broken her geass in one year, or in a few months, or in a few weeks, or in a few days.

    But it looks to me like she defeated her geass in a few minutes, and was almost totally free of its control when Lelouch shot her.

    5) And Lelouch probably saw that she was almost totally free of the control of the geass. When he walked up to her he would have noticed the condition of her machine gun. And if she had succeeded in reloading it he would have noticed it. He could have shot her to death right then, or wounded her in the arm and/or the leg, or punched her in the stomach or the jaw, or hit her in the head with the butt of his gun, or used a karate chop on her. Or asked her to put down the machine gun and go to his nightmare to discuss their future actions.

    But instead he walked past her and away from her for about twenty or thirty feet with his back to her while she held a loaded machine gun. He knew that her normal self would never shoot anyone, let alone him, and would prefer to run, hide, beg for mercy, or be killed instead of fighting if she suspected he would attack her. And he apparently saw that the geass control of her was now far too weak to force her to shoot him as a possible threat, not without a struggle that there was no sign of as he walked past and away from her.

    Lelouch saw Euphemia's superhuman resistance against the geass command at first. And he saw that she had somehow greatly weakened the control of the geass over her. He knew that she would not be dangerous to anyone for long.

    And he murdered her anyway. [/quote]

    PS. My original post in this thread, which was originally # 30, 03/16/09, in "Spoilers Warnings: Code Geass friends to foes" contains just one leg of my three-pronged attack on the idea that if captured Euphemia would have to be held a prisoner for the rest of her life or at least for a year until Jeremiah's geass canceler was introduced. for the other two ways that Euphemia could have been cured in much less than a year see my post # 32, 03/19/09, in "Spoilers Warnings: Code Geass friends to foes".

    It is said that despair is a deadly sin. That means that thinking that you are already damned and there is no hope of successful repentance will get you damned. It means that giving up on life and committing suicide is a sin. And it also means that giving up on somebody else and deciding they are better off dead is a sin. It is a sin when committed by old-time Japanese who looked upon the sick, the wounded, and the insane as damaged goods not worth saving. It is a sin and a crime when committed by Lelouch in the Code Geass universe. It can be a bad influence on other people when committed by anime fans in our universe, where their ideas can influence the actions of others when they decide the fates of sick, wounded, disabled, insane or otherwise helpless persons. [/quote]
    Last edited by proEuphie; 04-09-2009 at 12:46 AM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    1. Thats for dramatic effect have people been using since the invention of slow motion effect
    2. No matter how you put she was still under it influence
    3. See Lelouch geass got stronger at this point of the story which may have left some after effect on poor euphy but dont forget she still kept on shooting
    4. Ok this one I dont know how to answer since its just one of your theory again so Im going to have to make one up too. Maybe it got weaker because the user of that geass died or like a disease developed some ressitance over the years or that once she was presented with the truth the geass broke in the same case with lelouch.
    5. Look for that time Lelouch only knew that a geass couldnt be worn off until the victim has completed their task and euphy's task was to kill all the japanese and euphy was on a killing spree and there's a whole lot japanese people in japan. Even if lelouch was to have capture her her command to her soldier would've still continue. but still this is still just your speculation
    Last edited by blackrosetwilight; 04-09-2009 at 06:23 PM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    1. Thats for dramatic effect have people been using since the invention of slow motion effect
    2. No matter how you put she was still under it influence
    3. See Lelouch geass got stronger at this point of the story which may have left some after effect on poor euphy but dont forget she still kept on shooting
    4. Ok this one I dont know how to answer since its just one of your theory again so Im going to have to make one up too. Maybe it got weaker because the user of that geass died or like a disease developed some ressitance over the years or that once she was presented with the truth the geass broke in the same case with lelouch.
    5. Look for that time Lelouch only knew that a geass couldnt be worn off until the victim has completed their task and euphy's task was to kill all the japanese and euphy was on a killing spree and there's a whole lot japanese people in japan. Even if lelouch was to have capture her her command to her soldier would've still continue. but still this is still just your speculation
    1) Yes. but Code geass is supposed to take place on our Earth in an alternate universe. The force of gravity should be the same. It should take Euphemia only about a quarter or a half of a second to fall backwards to the ground. Why don't you have someone timed falling backwards onto a mattress to see how long it takes?
    Euphemia's recognition that Lelouch shot her should be squeezed into that fraction of a second. no matter how many seconds it takes her to hit the ground in slow motion. Unless her normal self was already conscious before Lelouch shot her. If the geass control of her was very weak and her normal self was conscious she would have seen Lelouch point the gun at her and felt the impact, instead of awakening while already falling toward the ground.
    2) Euphemia's eyes were circled with red for a much longer time than she was shown reacting to the geass command. She seemed peaceful during most of the time that her eyes were encircled with red. Most of the time that her irises were encircled with red, Euphemia was not trying to kill Suzaku and was not resisting the urge to kill Suzaku, but seemed unaware of any compulsion to kill Suzaku. The compulsion to kill Suzaku was never strong enough to make Euphemia actually try to kill him, and most of the time that her irises were encircled with red the compulsion seemed to be too weak for Euphemia to even notice it. No matter how you put it, Euphemia's irises were encircled with red at times when the geass command had far less than 100 percent control of her, and even at times when it had only very little control of her, too little for her to even notice.
    No matter how you put it, the eyes do not have it.
    3) Euphemia did not keep on shooting up to the time that Lelouch shot her. Her ammo clip jammed and she spent time replacing it, and then she recognized Zero and talked to him for a while before he shot her. Zero walked right up to her. He could have prevented her from resuming shooting by shooting her dead right then. Or by shooting her in an arm and/or a leg and capturing her. Or by punching or kicking her in the jaw or the stomach and capturing her. Or by banging her on the head with the butt of his pistol and capturing her.
    Or he could have asked Euphie to put down the machine gun and go into his nightmare to discuss their future plans. If she refused to put down the machine he might have had to kill her or capture her violently. If she put down the machine gun he could put his arms around her in a brotherly way, restricting her ability to use her arms, and walked her into his nightmare where he and CC could have captured her and tied her up.
    If Lelouch thought that Euphie was dangerous to him he would have killed or captured her immediately. If he thought that she might shoot at any passing Japanese he should have killed or captured her immediately.
    But instead he walked past her and away from her with his back to her. He was confident that neither Euphemia's own personality nor the geass command was going to shoot him in the back or hit him in the head with the machine gun or something heavy picked up from the ground. And if he wasn't perfectly confident that Euphemia wouldn't shoot at any Japanese who might have come into sight during those moments he didn't care about how many Japanese she killed.
    Lelouch didn't seem to be worried that Euphemia might resume shooting.
    4) As I said, it seems reasonable that if Euphemia was the only person known to resist the geass she would probably become free of its control sooner than anyone else ever did. So if Nunnally became free of the geass for any reason after eight years, Euphemia would have a good chance of becoming free of the geass after eight years or even much less than eight years. Being a prisoner for eight years would not be a fate worse than death, as some people who think that killing Euphie was a good idea seem to think, nor would keeping one more prisoner for eight years be much of a problem in a world with thousands or millions of prisoners.
    And Euphemia's behavior before being shot certainly seems to indicate that she was partially under the control of the geass and partially free of it's control.
    5) How can you say that at that time Lelouch knew that a geass command would not wear off until it was completed? At most he could have had one of his experimental subjects obeying a geass for a few months. That would leave him plenty of room to believe that Euphemia's geass could possibly wear off after a few years in confinement. And Lelouch usually gave commands which would be followed in just a few minutes, indicating that possibly he found by experimentation that his subjects would only work at obeying a geass command for a limited time before it wore off. That would explain why Lelouch did not give commands like "You will always be kind to the numbers" or "Obey all my orders for the rest of your life".
    And certainly CC wouldn't tell Lelouch how long it might take for a geass command to wear off.
    You seem to assume that the only way Lelouch could possibly save the Japanese from Euphemia was to kill her. Do you think that if Euphemia was locked up and confined the power of the geass would radiate outwards from her jail cell and make all the Japanese drop dead?
    And you mention Euphemia's command to her soldiers. Obvious a live Euphemia would be better for getting her soldiers to stop killing than a dead one. Lelouch could broadcast a discussion with her on the Britannian command frequencies in the hope that she might reveal that she had ordered the massacre without authority from Cornelia or the Emperor, that she was disobeying her superiors and that the soldiers had no proper authority to massacre. The geass might try to stop Euphemia from revealing that. But Lelouch might be able to outwit the geass. He might, for example, tell Euphemia that his agents in Tokyo will torture Cornelia to death for ordering the massacre which might make Euphemia defy the geass enough to say that Cornelia had not authorized the massacre. And if Euphie was free of the geass control by the time she was captured she would want to order her men to stop killing.
    Or Lelouch could use her as a hostage to get Cornelia to order Euphemia's soldiers to stop fighting.[/quote]
    Last edited by proEuphie; 04-09-2009 at 10:55 PM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    Im stopping here since neither of us are going no where if we continue, so ok you're 100% right eupy reisted geass but whoopty doo she still died... cuz the lacus fan killed her cuz there can only be one pink hair peace loving princess

  10. #10
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    @proEuphie: I accept your apology from one of your previous posts, but again I do not know what you were trying to say. That whole "sinner" bit has been used by you before (and you used it again). In fact, its practically word for word from the previous time you used it (you are apparently trying to preach something, otherwise you wouldn't be repeating this three times), except that you were talking specifically about me rather than anime fans in general (which is why I ignored it the first time but got offended this time). Here is a quote from one of your previous posts:

    "But I can't help thinking that it is a bad deed to ever advocate the more violent or brutal option, even when discussing fictional events. A person who chooses violence in real life does so as a result of many influences over his lifetime, each of which makes him a tiny bit more or less likely to commit violence. I think it is better to be one of the anti-violence influences."

    Pardon me? Here is another quote from you:

    "And here is another way to undo the geass:
    Lelouch captures a bunch of Britannian soldiers at the Fuji massacre site. He takes one and says he is sentenced to die by gunshot for taking part in the massacre, but instead Zero will burn him at the stake unless he helps Zero. This girl CC will give him a geass power, and if that geass power is the power to undo one of Zero's geass commands, the soldier will be shot instead of burned at the stake. CC gives a power to the soldier, they bring in Euphemia, Zero tells the soldier to undo the geass command, and CC checks if the geass is gone from Euphemia. If it is gone, Lelouch shoots the soldier, if not Lelouch ties him to a stake and lights the fire and brings in the next soldier to try again."

    Ignoring the fact that that wouldn't even work (Geass powers are based on one's inner most desires, not necessarily what's needed at the time, so Lelouch will end up killing an unknown amount of soldiers before realizing its not working), its apparently bad for me to say that Euphemia had to die because she was a threat to all those around her and that apparently makes me violent (even though we are discussing a cartoon), but its okay to kill a bunch of soldiers on the off chance that it could save one (count them: one) person? And you used that "sin" quote again (in case you didn't notice, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about this). Like I said before, despite what I say about Euphemia, I won't change the fact that she is dead. I did not influence that. Lelouch didn't influence that either (although he did kill her). The creators did that. I could be a "sinner" (I would appreciate you not calling me that again) for losing hope in Euphemia and saying that she is better of dead (I didn't "lose hope", for she WAS ALREADY DEAD; what hope is there to be had?), but having hope in her is not going to change the overall fact that she is dead. You can say that you are a better person for not giving up on her and trying to figure out how to keep her alive, HOWEVER, that does not stop the fact that she died before any of us decided our opinions on this. In fact, we wouldn't be here other wise. I can say that Euphemia had to die until my face turned blue but that does NOT mean that I decided her fate. And it doesn't mean anything. People, not just anime fans, talk about television characters all the time. If one person thinks that a character should die, that's honestly their opinion and you are not automatically a better person because you think the person should live.

    Like I said before, Euphemia's personality (or anyone's personality, mind you) is not locked or suppressed while under the influence of the Geass. Just because she is acting nice does not mean that the Geass is wearing of (in fact, it is the sign of absolutely nothing). She greeted Zero since she knew that he was her half-brother Lelouch and talked about the SAZ, which was the whole point of him being there in the first place (the memories of the SAZ would not be suppressed). Of course, creating the SAZ completely contradicts her current action of killing every Japanese she can find. When Lelouch shot her, she said, "Lelouch, why?" Whether this means she broke the Geass or not is not really clear. Even while under the influence of the Geass, she would be completely confused as to why her beloved half-brother just shot her in the stomach. If the gun shot broke the Geass (since would she physically incapable of carrying out much of anything once being shot, as per the rule), she would be even more confused as to why Lelouch shot her. So, saying "Lelouch, why?" doesn't necessarily mean she came out of the Geass (which is obvious since the Geass came back when she was in the hospital).

    Speaking of her being shot, have you ever heard the phrase "Every time you place logic into an anime, God kills a catgirl?" This basically means that certain logical approaches to actions in anime not only do not work, but one is wasting their time trying to figure them out. Most people are aware that it takes only about a second to fall backwards under normal gravity. But there is no point in calculating that in a slow motion scene. The whole POINT of a slow motion scene is to allow more time for an action to take place. They slowed down the scene where Euphemia is shot to allow her to say "Lelouch, why?", knowing that under normal circumstances, she probably wouldn't be able to open her mouth before falling on the ground. Lelouch even said an entire sentence to her while she was falling! So, trying to figure out if she came out of the Geass based on this is pointless.

    Now, to the "more pressing" matter: saving Euphemia. Lelouch NEVER intended on saving Euphemia's life in the first place, so there is no real point in offering tips to the contrary. He already threatened to shot her once before, and at the SAZ, he decided to have her shot him, make him look like a martyr, and to hell with the consequences of what happened to Euphemia. That was the original plan. Once she started shooting people, he decided to use the situation to his advantage and exploit Euphemia. He COULD have restrained her (actually, Lelouch has zero muscle power, so who knows if this would work). He COULD have tied her up. He COULD have captured her. He COULD have made her a prisoner. He COULD have saved her life. HOWEVER, that was NEVER part of the plan to begin with. He wanted to exploit Euphemia to the fullest during that situation, which was to blame the massacre on her, kill her (might as well; the Japanese would never except any punishment less than death for Euphemia), make the Japanese riot against Britannia and create an entirely new nation (matching the original plan).

    To answer your question (since you danced around it many, many times), no, Euphemia didn't escape the Geass. This comes from both my opinion and your own. I say she not only didn't escape the Geass before she was shot, but she didn't "escape" the Geass until she ultimately died. So my answer is no. Since you have never directly answered your own question, let me give it for you: Euphemia was really, REALLY close to breaking the Geass when Lelouch arrived. By the time he was there, the Geass barely had any control over her. However, "barely" does not mean "none" or "broken". Remember, your question was whether or not she broke the Geass BEFORE Lelouch shot her. Apparently, the answer would be: no.

    Piggybacking off of blackrosetwilight, after all this discussion Euphemia is still dead. While Euphemia stood out as a character in Code Geass, she does not stand out as a character by herself. In fact, Euphemia mirrors Lacus Clyne (from Gundam SEED, which is also made by Sunrise) from the royalty, to the pacifism, to the befriending of a soldier (who becomes her "lover") to the long pink hair and high voice (Lacus Clyne might as well be Euphemia's sister, if not her twin). Both girls are even 16 (until the time skip in Gundam SEED Destiny)! What I am basically trying to say is, when it comes to Euphemia, you need to calm down a bit. Its one thing to be a fan, but you are accusing people (us) of committing deadly sins and having violent tendencies because they (we) supposedly "lost hope" in an already dead cartoon character.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 04-10-2009 at 04:48 PM.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    @proEuphie: I accept your apology from one of your previous posts, but again I do not know what you were trying to say. That whole "sinner" bit has been used by you before (and you used it again). In fact, its practically word for word from the previous time you used it (you are apparently trying to preach something, otherwise you wouldn't be repeating this three times), except that you were talking specifically about me rather than anime fans in general (which is why I ignored it the first time but got offended this time). Here is a quote from one of your previous posts:

    "But I can't help thinking that it is a bad deed to ever advocate the more violent or brutal option, even when discussing fictional events. A person who chooses violence in real life does so as a result of many influences over his lifetime, each of which makes him a tiny bit more or less likely to commit violence. I think it is better to be one of the anti-violence influences."

    Pardon me? Here is another quote from you:

    "And here is another way to undo the geass:
    Lelouch captures a bunch of Britannian soldiers at the Fuji massacre site. He takes one and says he is sentenced to die by gunshot for taking part in the massacre, but instead Zero will burn him at the stake unless he helps Zero. This girl CC will give him a geass power, and if that geass power is the power to undo one of Zero's geass commands, the soldier will be shot instead of burned at the stake. CC gives a power to the soldier, they bring in Euphemia, Zero tells the soldier to undo the geass command, and CC checks if the geass is gone from Euphemia. If it is gone, Lelouch shoots the soldier, if not Lelouch ties him to a stake and lights the fire and brings in the next soldier to try again."

    Ignoring the fact that that wouldn't even work (Geass powers are based on one's inner most desires, not necessarily what's needed at the time, so Lelouch will end up killing an unknown amount of soldiers before realizing its not working), its apparently bad for me to say that Euphemia had to die because she was a threat to all those around her and that apparently makes me violent (even though we are discussing a cartoon), but its okay to kill a bunch of soldiers on the off chance that it could save one (count them: one) person? And you used that "sin" quote again (in case you didn't notice, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about this). Like I said before, despite what I say about Euphemia, I won't change the fact that she is dead. I did not influence that. Lelouch didn't influence that either (although he did kill her). The creators did that. I could be a "sinner" (I would appreciate you not calling me that again) for losing hope in Euphemia and saying that she is better of dead (I didn't "lose hope", for she WAS ALREADY DEAD; what hope is there to be had?), but having hope in her is not going to change the overall fact that she is dead. You can say that you are a better person for not giving up on her and trying to figure out how to keep her alive, HOWEVER, that does not stop the fact that she died before any of us decided our opinions on this. In fact, we wouldn't be here other wise. I can say that Euphemia had to die until my face turned blue but that does NOT mean that I decided her fate. And it doesn't mean anything. People, not just anime fans, talk about television characters all the time. If one person thinks that a character should die, that's honestly their opinion and you are not automatically a better person because you think the person should live.

    Like I said before, Euphemia's personality (or anyone's personality, mind you) is not locked or suppressed while under the influence of the Geass. Just because she is acting nice does not mean that the Geass is wearing of (in fact, it is the sign of absolutely nothing). She greeted Zero since she knew that he was her half-brother Lelouch and talked about the SAZ, which was the whole point of him being there in the first place (the memories of the SAZ would not be suppressed). Of course, creating the SAZ completely contradicts her current action of killing every Japanese she can find. When Lelouch shot her, she said, "Lelouch, why?" Whether this means she broke the Geass or not is not really clear. Even while under the influence of the Geass, she would be completely confused as to why her beloved half-brother just shot her in the stomach. If the gun shot broke the Geass (since would she physically incapable of carrying out much of anything once being shot, as per the rule), she would be even more confused as to why Lelouch shot her. So, saying "Lelouch, why?" doesn't necessarily mean she came out of the Geass (which is obvious since the Geass came back when she was in the hospital).

    Speaking of her being shot, have you ever heard the phrase "Every time you place logic into an anime, God kills a catgirl?" This basically means that certain logical approaches to actions in anime not only do not work, but one is wasting their time trying to figure them out. Most people are aware that it takes only about a second to fall backwards under normal gravity. But there is no point in calculating that in a slow motion scene. The whole POINT of a slow motion scene is to allow more time for an action to take place. They slowed down the scene where Euphemia is shot to allow her to say "Lelouch, why?", knowing that under normal circumstances, she probably wouldn't be able to open her mouth before falling on the ground. Lelouch even said an entire sentence to her while she was falling! So, trying to figure out if she came out of the Geass based on this is pointless.

    Now, to the "more pressing" matter: saving Euphemia. Lelouch NEVER intended on saving Euphemia's life in the first place, so there is no real point in offering tips to the contrary. He already threatened to shot her once before, and at the SAZ, he decided to have her shot him, make him look like a martyr, and to hell with the consequences of what happened to Euphemia. That was the original plan. Once she started shooting people, he decided to use the situation to his advantage and exploit Euphemia. He COULD have restrained her (actually, Lelouch has zero muscle power, so who knows if this would work). He COULD have tied her up. He COULD have captured her. He COULD have made her a prisoner. He COULD have saved her life. HOWEVER, that was NEVER part of the plan to begin with. He wanted to exploit Euphemia to the fullest during that situation, which was to blame the massacre on her, kill her (might as well; the Japanese would never except any punishment less than death for Euphemia), make the Japanese riot against Britannia and create an entirely new nation (matching the original plan).

    To answer your question (since you danced around it many, many times), no, Euphemia didn't escape the Geass. This comes from both my opinion and your own. I say she not only didn't escape the Geass before she was shot, but she didn't "escape" the Geass until she ultimately died. So my answer is no. Since you have never directly answered your own question, let me give it for you: Euphemia was really, REALLY close to breaking the Geass when Lelouch arrived. By the time he was there, the Geass barely had any control over her. However, "barely" does not mean "none" or "broken". Remember, your question was whether or not she broke the Geass BEFORE Lelouch shot her. Apparently, the answer would be: no.

    Piggybacking off of blackrosetwilight, after all this discussion Euphemia is still dead. While Euphemia stood out as a character in Code Geass, she does not stand out as a character by herself. In fact, Euphemia mirrors Lacus Clyne (from Gundam SEED, which is also made by Sunrise) from the royalty, to the pacifism, to the befriending of a soldier (who becomes her "lover") to the long pink hair and high voice (Lacus Clyne might as well be Euphemia's sister, if not her twin). Both girls are even 16 (until the time skip in Gundam SEED Destiny)! What I am basically trying to say is, when it comes to Euphemia, you need to calm down a bit. Its one thing to be a fan, but you are accusing people (us) of committing deadly sins and having violent tendencies because they (we) supposedly "lost hope" in an already dead cartoon character.
    The point of the whole "sin" thing is: suppose that in a situation A a person B considers killing a person C. Person b's decision is likely to be influenced by tens of thousands of his experiences and the opinions of other people, most of which will have a tiny but real weight in his decision. Since any situation a person D might discuss would be at least vaguely similar to the situation A in which person B would consider killing person C it is better for person D to be anti-killing than pro-killing in his discussions. And don't say that people are constanlty saying that a particular fictional character or even real person should be killed. I know that and I don't like it.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 04-11-2009 at 09:22 PM.

  12. #12
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    @proEuphie: I accept your apology from one of your previous posts, but again I do not know what you were trying to say. That whole "sinner" bit has been used by you before (and you used it again). In fact, its practically word for word from the previous time you used it (you are apparently trying to preach something, otherwise you wouldn't be repeating this three times), except that you were talking specifically about me rather than anime fans in general (which is why I ignored it the first time but got offended this time). Here is a quote from one of your previous posts:

    "But I can't help thinking that it is a bad deed to ever advocate the more violent or brutal option, even when discussing fictional events. A person who chooses violence in real life does so as a result of many influences over his lifetime, each of which makes him a tiny bit more or less likely to commit violence. I think it is better to be one of the anti-violence influences."

    Pardon me? Here is another quote from you:

    "And here is another way to undo the geass:
    Lelouch captures a bunch of Britannian soldiers at the Fuji massacre site. He takes one and says he is sentenced to die by gunshot for taking part in the massacre, but instead Zero will burn him at the stake unless he helps Zero. This girl CC will give him a geass power, and if that geass power is the power to undo one of Zero's geass commands, the soldier will be shot instead of burned at the stake. CC gives a power to the soldier, they bring in Euphemia, Zero tells the soldier to undo the geass command, and CC checks if the geass is gone from Euphemia. If it is gone, Lelouch shoots the soldier, if not Lelouch ties him to a stake and lights the fire and brings in the next soldier to try again."

    Ignoring the fact that that wouldn't even work (Geass powers are based on one's inner most desires, not necessarily what's needed at the time, so Lelouch will end up killing an unknown amount of soldiers before realizing its not working), its apparently bad for me to say that Euphemia had to die because she was a threat to all those around her and that apparently makes me violent (even though we are discussing a cartoon), but its okay to kill a bunch of soldiers on the off chance that it could save one (count them: one) person? And you used that "sin" quote again (in case you didn't notice, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about this). Like I said before, despite what I say about Euphemia, I won't change the fact that she is dead. I did not influence that. Lelouch didn't influence that either (although he did kill her). The creators did that. I could be a "sinner" (I would appreciate you not calling me that again) for losing hope in Euphemia and saying that she is better of dead (I didn't "lose hope", for she WAS ALREADY DEAD; what hope is there to be had?), but having hope in her is not going to change the overall fact that she is dead. You can say that you are a better person for not giving up on her and trying to figure out how to keep her alive, HOWEVER, that does not stop the fact that she died before any of us decided our opinions on this. In fact, we wouldn't be here other wise. I can say that Euphemia had to die until my face turned blue but that does NOT mean that I decided her fate. And it doesn't mean anything. People, not just anime fans, talk about television characters all the time. If one person thinks that a character should die, that's honestly their opinion and you are not automatically a better person because you think the person should live.

    Like I said before, Euphemia's personality (or anyone's personality, mind you) is not locked or suppressed while under the influence of the Geass. Just because she is acting nice does not mean that the Geass is wearing of (in fact, it is the sign of absolutely nothing). She greeted Zero since she knew that he was her half-brother Lelouch and talked about the SAZ, which was the whole point of him being there in the first place (the memories of the SAZ would not be suppressed). Of course, creating the SAZ completely contradicts her current action of killing every Japanese she can find. When Lelouch shot her, she said, "Lelouch, why?" Whether this means she broke the Geass or not is not really clear. Even while under the influence of the Geass, she would be completely confused as to why her beloved half-brother just shot her in the stomach. If the gun shot broke the Geass (since would she physically incapable of carrying out much of anything once being shot, as per the rule), she would be even more confused as to why Lelouch shot her. So, saying "Lelouch, why?" doesn't necessarily mean she came out of the Geass (which is obvious since the Geass came back when she was in the hospital).

    Speaking of her being shot, have you ever heard the phrase "Every time you place logic into an anime, God kills a catgirl?" This basically means that certain logical approaches to actions in anime not only do not work, but one is wasting their time trying to figure them out. Most people are aware that it takes only about a second to fall backwards under normal gravity. But there is no point in calculating that in a slow motion scene. The whole POINT of a slow motion scene is to allow more time for an action to take place. They slowed down the scene where Euphemia is shot to allow her to say "Lelouch, why?", knowing that under normal circumstances, she probably wouldn't be able to open her mouth before falling on the ground. Lelouch even said an entire sentence to her while she was falling! So, trying to figure out if she came out of the Geass based on this is pointless.

    Now, to the "more pressing" matter: saving Euphemia. Lelouch NEVER intended on saving Euphemia's life in the first place, so there is no real point in offering tips to the contrary. He already threatened to shot her once before, and at the SAZ, he decided to have her shot him, make him look like a martyr, and to hell with the consequences of what happened to Euphemia. That was the original plan. Once she started shooting people, he decided to use the situation to his advantage and exploit Euphemia. He COULD have restrained her (actually, Lelouch has zero muscle power, so who knows if this would work). He COULD have tied her up. He COULD have captured her. He COULD have made her a prisoner. He COULD have saved her life. HOWEVER, that was NEVER part of the plan to begin with. He wanted to exploit Euphemia to the fullest during that situation, which was to blame the massacre on her, kill her (might as well; the Japanese would never except any punishment less than death for Euphemia), make the Japanese riot against Britannia and create an entirely new nation (matching the original plan).

    To answer your question (since you danced around it many, many times), no, Euphemia didn't escape the Geass. This comes from both my opinion and your own. I say she not only didn't escape the Geass before she was shot, but she didn't "escape" the Geass until she ultimately died. So my answer is no. Since you have never directly answered your own question, let me give it for you: Euphemia was really, REALLY close to breaking the Geass when Lelouch arrived. By the time he was there, the Geass barely had any control over her. However, "barely" does not mean "none" or "broken". Remember, your question was whether or not she broke the Geass BEFORE Lelouch shot her. Apparently, the answer would be: no.

    Piggybacking off of blackrosetwilight, after all this discussion Euphemia is still dead. While Euphemia stood out as a character in Code Geass, she does not stand out as a character by herself. In fact, Euphemia mirrors Lacus Clyne (from Gundam SEED, which is also made by Sunrise) from the royalty, to the pacifism, to the befriending of a soldier (who becomes her "lover") to the long pink hair and high voice (Lacus Clyne might as well be Euphemia's sister, if not her twin). Both girls are even 16 (until the time skip in Gundam SEED Destiny)! What I am basically trying to say is, when it comes to Euphemia, you need to calm down a bit. Its one thing to be a fan, but you are accusing people (us) of committing deadly sins and having violent tendencies because they (we) supposedly "lost hope" in an already dead cartoon character.
    Perhaps my proposed method of curing Euphemia would not work. Perhaps if Lelouch used his geass on the victims he could change their desires, perhaps not. By the way, what is your source for your statement that a person's geass is chosen by his innermost, strongest desires? Did CC or VV say that in an episode?
    But why do you worry about Lelouch going though a lot of soldiers trying to cure one person, Euphemia? The life of any soldier, warrior, guerrilla, or terrorist who takes part in a massacre is absolutely worthless. Killing trillions or quadrillions of them would not be as bad as killing one good person, because the lives of even an infinite number of massacre participants have zero or even negative worth. None of the Britannian soldiers or Black Knights who took part in massacres could claim that he was forced to do so as much as Euphemia was forced to do so.

    Why do you say that Euphemia had to die because she was a threat to all those around her? I keep saying that if she was properly restrained, and/or confined, and/or sedated she would be no danger to anyone. An organization plotting to liberate an entire country should be prepared to capture a lot of prisoners unless they are planning to massacre all their enemies, which would make them an evil organization.
    Lelouch could give non Japanese newsmen captured in the stadium a geass to obey his commands, with the first being to guard Euphemia (locked up in a room of the G1 vehicle?). When they captured Tokyo the next day one of Lelouch's underlings could release the political prisoners from a jail and Euphemia could be locked up there with no chance of escaping to kill people. If Lelouch geassed some of the Britannian guards to obey all his orders they could alternately guard Euphemia and spy on Britannians and be a net manpower gain to the Black Knights.

    You say the Euphemia's confusion about being shot by Lelouch doesn't indicate whether she was controlled by the geass at that point. If she was totally controlled by the geass she would remember ordering the massacre as well as the fact that Lelouch was the protector and defender of the Japanese and might put two and two together to deduce he might attack her, but apparently she didn't try anything to prevent such a possibility.
    Anyway, since Euphemia seemed to have totally trusted Lelouch and he was confident she would not attack him, and since he should have known that keeping her prisoner would be no problem, killing her was an utterly treacherous murder.

    About the slow motion scene. I suppose you believe that Euphemia actually said "Why Lelouch?" after she hit the ground. I suppose I could time how long her words were after she was shot to see how fast she would have to realize Lelouch shot her.

    You say that Lelouch never planned on saving Euphemia's life when he came to the meeting. Forget that she was his half sister, the important thing was that he knew she was a good person. So why should he endanger her life to foil her plans when he could have had someone else ruin the SAZ plan? With Lelouch's powers no one was safe from being geassed by him in the days before the SAZ opening. General Darlton or even Cornelia could have been made to arrest Euphemia in the name of the Emperor and the black Knights could "rescue" her, which might lead to her joining Lelouch in the rebellion, or Euphemia could simply resign on the grounds that she was too young for such a dangerous and difficult job.

    And Lelouch did decide to give up that plan and make peace with Euphemia.
    Wasn't he honor-bound to salvage as much as he could from the peace agreement after he accidentally gave Euphemia the massacre geass? Wasn't he honor-bound to tell the Black Knights that Euphemia was insane and should be captured and the Japanese saved from the soldiers who obeyed her senseless order? They should have protected the Japanese and then withdrawn. The SAZ plan would be dead and the Japanese would have no hope except Zero, and Lelouch would have more time to gather strength and perfect his plans until he was ready to strike.

    What you seem to be saying about Lelouch, although you dance around it many times, is that he was evil. If so, we are in agreement.

    And as Fouche would have said, killing Euphemia was "worse than a crime, it was a blunder". Although I think crimes are worse than blunders.

    In episode 24, I think, Lelouch gloats about the Emperor having to come to meet Zero face to face (and thus be geassed) once they establish an independent Japan. There have not been a lot of cases where one country gained it's independence by violent revolution against another, and even fewer where the head of state of the former master country immediately came to meet with the rebel leader.
    The Emperor, an absolute monarch, would not have to behave in such an unusual way. A living Euphemia would raise the probability that he would greatly. Lelouch knows that the Emperor knows that his daughter Euphemia is one of the kindest and gentlest people in the world and would likely suspect that the footage of her ordering the massacre must be faked. The Emperor would know that any person capable of killing so good a girl as Euphemia would not hesitate to kill so evil a man as himself, so why should Lelouch expect the Emperor to come unless Euphemia was alive?

    Some people claim that Lelouch needed to pose as a brave Euphy-slaying hero to gain the leadership of the rebellion against Britannia. Otherwise the rebellion would collapse in a few days due to leadership less competent than Lelouch's. But Lelouch could simply geass the Kyoto group to obey his orders while posing as the leaders of the rebellion. After victory the Kyoto group, and not Zero who had killed Clovis, could invite the Emperor to a meeting.
    The broadcast of the meeting would be interrupted just before Zero and the Black Knights entered and Lelouch geassed the Emperor.
    The Emperor and his people and the Kyoto group and their people (except for cute little Kaguya, I hope, even though she is the evilest fourteen-year-old on tv) would be dead when the transmission resumed. Zero would explain what happened, perhaps showing previously prepared fake footage, and become the official leader of the new Japan. Or pehaps the wounded members of the Kyoto group would gratefully resign their leadership to Zero who had saved them from the Emperor's treacherous attack.

    And if Lelouch was going to lie about Euphemia's evil he might as well lie about killing her to gain the leadership. He could tell the Japanese who wanted to take out their anger on her corpse that she was so evil that her corpse turned to ashes and blew away when he killed her, and use her as a hostage with Cornelia. If Britannian later claimed that Euphemia was alive Zero could say he didn't know which Euphemia was the real princess, he just knew that the one he killed was the one who ordered the attack and was so evil (probably being a demon) that her corpse burned up and blew away when she was killed.

    Or he could have openly used Euphemia as a hostage, her value being increased by the Japanese threats to torture her to death in the background as he was on the phone negotiating with Cornelia. If he explained to Cornelia that 1) Euphemia had an insane desire to kill Japanese and 2) the Japanese all hated Euphie and wanted to torture her to death, he could have persuaded Cornelia to keep Euphemia confined in Britannia for her own good. Cornelia would be far too protective of Euphemia to let her have the slightest chance of attacking and being attacked by Japanese. Lelouch once said that Euphemia was Cornelia's only weakness, but he threw away that weakness, and the lives of hundreds or thousands of his followers, when he kiled Euphemia.
    In the Texas War of independence the Mexican army was routed at San Jacento. The Texans remembered the Alamo and slaughtered most of the Mexicans despite their pleas of "Me no Alamo! Me no Goliad!" But Sam Houston managed to have Santa Anna captured and protected from the angry Texans. Santa Anna signed a treaty recognizing Texan independence and was released, despite the danger that he might return to slaughter more texans. Though the treaty was repudiated, neither Santa Anna nor any other Mexican presidente was able to arrange an invasion of Texas before Texas was annexed to the US.

    If Lelouch, with his power to use geass on anyone who opposed him, was as strong a leader as Sam Houston he could have used Euphie as a hostage to force Suszaku and/or the Lancelot to surrender.

    Or he could have forced Cornelia to declare the Tokyo settlment an open city and fight the rebels in the open countryside. In episode 24, I think, Lelouch's Gawain nightmare shot down tens or hundreds of Brtitannian aircraft over Tokyo. Who knowns how many Britannian and/or Japanese civilians were killed by falling wreckage? And how many were killed by stray shells and bombs? Tens? Hundreds? Thousands? Deaths which could have been avoided if Lelouch used Euphie to force Cornelia to fight away from civilians.

    Or possibly Lelouch could have forced Cornelia to surrender Japan to the rebels without a fight.

    These were the kind of things that Lelouch should have been thinking about when planning to make Euphie shoot him at the meeting. He should have realized how valuable a hostage she would make. Lelouch would have expected that Euphemia would either escape the fighting at the stadium, be killed, or be captured. Lelouch could have planned that if she was captured he would magnamonously forgive her for shooting him, or use her as a hostage, or kill her. He had days to figure out what he wanted to do with her if she was captured and to realize what a great hostage she would make.

    If Lelouch was planning to use her as a hostage, then when he gave her the geass command to kill the Japanese he would have thought about adapting those plans to the circumstances. He might have decided she would still make a good hostage and that it would be safe to release her in return for the independence of Japan - since Cornelia would want to keep Euphie away from the Japanese - just as Sam Houston figured it was safe to release Santa Anna despite all the Texans he had massacred and the chance he might return to kill some more.

    You say the Japanese would never let Euphemia live. That is like saying the Texans would never let Santa Anna live, let alone go free. Do you have any examples of Japanese vengefullness in similar circumstances? Are you going to tell me that when General Curtis "Demon" Lemay was sentenced to only ten years imprisonment for war crimes against the Japanese there were mass demonstrations by angry Japense demanding he be executed? Of course not, since Lemay was never tried for his war crimes and even became a vice presidential candidate without any great protest from the Japanese.

    If Lelouch decided that Euphemia would be too dangerous as a hostage while under the control of the geass, he might have asked Cc if there was qny way to undo the geass command and she might haave told him that VV could do it and VV was close to the Emperor. That wuld certainly be convenient for demanding that Euphemia be cured after or even before she was released. Lelouch might even think of holding Euphemia and VV after VV cured Euphemia.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 04-12-2009 at 10:29 PM.

  13. #13
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    And the cycle of conlicts continues... please stay tune for our next exciting post from our two contenders proEuphie and wolfgirl90.(roll the credits)

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    And the cycle of conlicts continues... please stay tune for our next exciting post from our two contenders proEuphie and wolfgirl90.(roll the credits)
    I have popcorn, although I heard the book was better.

    Anyway, you seem to be missing my point about the whole "capture Euphemia" thing, proEuphie. While there may have been a chance that Euphemia could have been sedated, restrained and captured, those types of options are not available while there is somebody running around killing people. The threat needs to be taken care of as quickly as possible with as few people dying as possible. While killing someone is not the best thing to happen in a situation like this, if it has to happen, it will. If Euphemia was real and she was running around killing people, sorry, but I would most likely kill her in a situation like this, unless someone was able to quickly give me a way to neutralize her. In case you haven't figured it out, I'm in the military. Its part of my job to figure out how to neutralize threats.

    However, this point is moot since Lelouch never planned on saving Euphemia in the first place. He never really cared what happened to her, so there is absolutely no point in saying he could have saved her, he could kept her prisoner, or he could have used her as a hostage. There is no point to this so long as he did not really care about her overall well being. Sure, he knew that Euphemia was a good person, but he also knew that Euphemia was an extremely naive person whose actions went against what he wanted and what he was working toward and thus had to be eliminated. He was going to work with her at one point, but that plan changed when she stared killing people.

    Now, you have offered a lot of different scenarios of what Lelouch could do with Euphemia as a hostage. However, most of these arguments can be defeated by one simple fact: Emperor Charles does not care about his children. At all. He was happy that Clovis, his own son, had died since that meant that there was one less weak person alive in the world. Lelouch cannot use Euphemia as a hostage against Cornelia. She can stop the soldiers from attacking but that's about it (and she doesn't need Euphemia to do that).

    Lelouch cannot make Cornelia give up Japan in exchange for Euphemia. Cornelia is a Viseroy, a person sent to govern a country or province in the name of a monarch. While she controls Japan, she does not OWN Japan and cannot gave the country away to anyone. She and Euphemia can change boundaries and use the land for what they want (such as Euphemia's SAZ) but they can't simply give the land away. Cornelia is there to govern in place of Charles, the person who DOES own Japan. Cornelia could try to give it away, but Charles would just take it away again. She could declare Tokyo a free city but Charles (onto Lelouch's plan at this point) could easily override anything that Cornelia does. Charles could have stopped the SAZ if he wanted to but, with Euphemia being politically naive (and eventually going around killing people), there was really no point in doing so. Lelouch could appeal to him, but like I said before, Charles barely cares about any of his children. Euphemia no longer holds claim to the throne and gave away her name. Charles may even call her weak for being controlled like that. Because of this, Lelouch can't "demand" that Charles do anything. V.V could cancel the Geass on Euphemia but that would involve him actually caring about doing it and/or Lelouch forcing him to (and I would love to see how you would convince an immortal to do anything).

    While I understand your "sin" reference, again, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about the opinions about the life of a cartoon character. Like I said, I had no involvement in the decision that Euphemia should die. The creators of the show decided that. They decided that this innocent, naive, peace-loving girl be shot in the stomach. I had no part in it. Now, in a situational standpoint, yes, she should have died, but my opinion doesn't matter. My opinion is not going to influence her death as Euphemia was already dead when I said it. You can give all these different ways and opinions about Euphemia being alive but it doesn't matter. She is going to be dead (and remain dead) no matter what you say, what I say or what anyone else says. And like I pointed out, you are not innocent when it comes to suggesting violence (far from it actually). Here's a quote from "Who do you want to die?", an AF thread about which InuYasha characters people wanted to die:

    "Naraku! Of course. He should be burned at the stake, pulled apart by wild horses, sliced into a thousand pieces, cushed under a thound ton of rocke, etc. etc."

    You have said that the lives of the soldiers that took place in that murder mean absolutely nothing and that killing millions upon millions of them is much better than the killing of one "good" person. Pardon me, but who do you think you are? Are you some mystical being that sits on high who can decide whos lives are worth more than others? While people who take place in massacres are terrible people, I can not say that there lives are "worthless" nor am I in any position to make that decision. Neither are you. Euphemia is not that good a person such that millions deserve to die for her sake (like I pointed out last time, she is a virtual carbon copy Lacus Clyne from Gundam SEED; Euphemia is nothing special as far as cartoon characters go). If you wonder why I worry about their lives, then you have some serious issues that you need to work out.

    You think I am a bad person for thinking Euphemia should die? That apparently I am pro-violence based upon events in my life (I do do not know where you get off saying this)? Well, you are not so innocent yourself, since you believe that millions of lives should be sacrificed for the sake of one person (who just killed a bunch of people herself). You can call me a sinner all you want to but in doing so, you make yourself look quite arrogant and ignorant (like all the other people who decided to call me that).

    And I believe I am done here. I have answered your question. You have repeatedly answered your OWN question. And have decided that any and all people who decide that a fictional character should die (namely Euphemia) is a sinner, regardless of the fact that many people do this all the time and that you are not innocent of this "sin".
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 04-12-2009 at 09:28 PM.
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  15. #15
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    I have popcorn, although I heard the book was better.

    Anyway, you seem to be missing my point about the whole "capture Euphemia" thing, proEuphie. While there may have been a chance that Euphemia could have been sedated, restrained and captured, those types of options are not available while there is somebody running around killing people. The threat needs to be taken care of as quickly as possible with as few people dying as possible. While killing someone is not the best thing to happen in a situation like this, if it has to happen, it will. If Euphemia was real and she was running around killing people, sorry, but I would most likely kill her in a situation like this, unless someone was able to quickly give me a way to neutralize her. In case you haven't figured it out, I'm in the military. Its part of my job to figure out how to neutralize threats.

    However, this point is moot since Lelouch never planned on saving Euphemia in the first place. He never really cared what happened to her, so there is absolutely no point in saying he could have saved her, he could kept her prisoner, or he could have used her as a hostage. There is no point to this so long as he did not really care about her overall well being. Sure, he knew that Euphemia was a good person, but he also knew that Euphemia was an extremely naive person whose actions went against what he wanted and what he was working toward and thus had to be eliminated. He was going to work with her at one point, but that plan changed when she stared killing people.

    Now, you have offered a lot of different scenarios of what Lelouch could do with Euphemia as a hostage. However, most of these arguments can be defeated by one simple fact: Emperor Charles does not care about his children. At all. He was happy that Clovis, his own son, had died since that meant that there was one less weak person alive in the world. Lelouch cannot use Euphemia as a hostage against Cornelia. She can stop the soldiers from attacking but that's about it (and she doesn't need Euphemia to do that).

    Lelouch cannot make Cornelia give up Japan in exchange for Euphemia. Cornelia is a Viseroy, a person sent to govern a country or province in the name of a monarch. While she controls Japan, she does not OWN Japan and cannot gave the country away to anyone. She and Euphemia can change boundaries and use the land for what they want (such as Euphemia's SAZ) but they can't simply give the land away. Cornelia is there to govern in place of Charles, the person who DOES own Japan. Cornelia could try to give it away, but Charles would just take it away again. She could declare Tokyo a free city but Charles (onto Lelouch's plan at this point) could easily override anything that Cornelia does. Charles could have stopped the SAZ if he wanted to but, with Euphemia being politically naive (and eventually going around killing people), there was really no point in doing so. Lelouch could appeal to him, but like I said before, Charles barely cares about any of his children. Euphemia no longer holds claim to the throne and gave away her name. Charles may even call her weak for being controlled like that. Because of this, Lelouch can't "demand" that Charles do anything. V.V could cancel the Geass on Euphemia but that would involve him actually caring about doing it and/or Lelouch forcing him to (and I would love to see how you would convince an immortal to do anything).

    While I understand your "sin" reference, again, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about the opinions about the life of a cartoon character. Like I said, I had no involvement in the decision that Euphemia should die. The creators of the show decided that. They decided that this innocent, naive, peace-loving girl be shot in the stomach. I had no part in it. Now, in a situational standpoint, yes, she should have died, but my opinion doesn't matter. My opinion is not going to influence her death as Euphemia was already dead when I said it. You can give all these different ways and opinions about Euphemia being alive but it doesn't matter. She is going to be dead (and remain dead) no matter what you say, what I say or what anyone else says. And like I pointed out, you are not innocent when it comes to suggesting violence (far from it actually). Here's a quote from "Who do you want to die?", an AF thread about which InuYasha characters people wanted to die:

    "Naraku! Of course. He should be burned at the stake, pulled apart by wild horses, sliced into a thousand pieces, cushed under a thound ton of rocke, etc. etc."

    You have said that the lives of the soldiers that took place in that murder mean absolutely nothing and that killing millions upon millions of them is much better than the killing of one "good" person. Pardon me, but who do you think you are? Are you some mystical being that sits on high who can decide whos lives are worth more than others? While people who take place in massacres are terrible people, I can not say that there lives are "worthless" nor am I in any position to make that decision. Neither are you. Euphemia is not that good a person such that millions deserve to die for her sake (like I pointed out last time, she is a virtual carbon copy Lacus Clyne from Gundam SEED; Euphemia is nothing special as far as cartoon characters go). If you wonder why I worry about their lives, then you have some serious issues that you need to work out.

    You think I am a bad person for thinking Euphemia should die? That apparently I am pro-violence based upon events in my life (I do do not know where you get off saying this)? Well, you are not so innocent yourself, since you believe that millions of lives should be sacrificed for the sake of one person (who just killed a bunch of people herself). You can call me a sinner all you want to but in doing so, you make yourself look quite arrogant and ignorant (like all the other people who decided to call me that).

    And I believe I am done here. I have answered your question. You have repeatedly answered your OWN question. And have decided that any and all people who decide that a fictional character should die (namely Euphemia) is a sinner, regardless of the fact that many people do this all the time and that you are not innocent of this "sin".
    You kind of jumped the gun in responding to my post # 12. It is not finished. Around 1230 this morning I gave up and went to bed. I will have to finish it before I respond to your response to it. [/quote]

  16. #16
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    Todays post ends peacefully... next time a flash back post reply episode!!!!!!!!!!!!(I really have too much time on my hand)

  17. #17
    Senior Member Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    Todays post ends peacefully... next time a flash back post reply episode!!!!!!!!!!!!(I really have too much time on my hand)
    lol. ...So are the Days of our Posts.
    Sure Wish I had a little dvd player on my forklift at work... no, wait, that would be dangerous.


  18. #18
    Midori wa teki da~ Clawdia has a reputation beyond repute Clawdia has a reputation beyond repute Clawdia has a reputation beyond repute Clawdia has a reputation beyond repute Clawdia has a reputation beyond repute Clawdia has a reputation beyond repute Clawdia has a reputation beyond repute Clawdia has a reputation beyond repute Clawdia has a reputation beyond repute Clawdia has a reputation beyond repute Clawdia has a reputation beyond repute Clawdia's Avatar
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    ...Code Geass fans are scary. ;__;

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  19. #19
    Junior Member Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clawdia View Post
    ...Code Geass fans are scary. ;__;
    Indeed we are.

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    { that silly ultra super shinji fangirl. }
    Ooooh;


    hi.

  20. #20
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clawdia View Post
    ...Code Geass fans are scary. ;__;
    Be afraid, the thousand fans of Geass descends upon you, our post will block out the sun!!!!!.

  21. #21
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    Be afraid, the thousand fans of Geass descends upon you, our post will block out the sun!!!!!.
    This is madness!

    Madness...THIS IS BRITANNIA!!!
    This is my war face.

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  22. #22
    Senior Member zerog has a reputation beyond repute zerog has a reputation beyond repute zerog has a reputation beyond repute zerog has a reputation beyond repute zerog has a reputation beyond repute zerog has a reputation beyond repute zerog has a reputation beyond repute zerog has a reputation beyond repute zerog has a reputation beyond repute zerog has a reputation beyond repute zerog has a reputation beyond repute zerog's Avatar
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    my god these are the longest words I've ever seen in posts...
    @_@
    well I believe she was still under control of the geass until the part where she got shot then she came back to normal when she actually died.


    To say is easy, To do that is hard... (Rurouni Kenshin)

  23. #23
    Senior Member Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    Be afraid, the thousand fans of Geass descends upon you, our post will block out the sun!!!!!.
    ...Then we'll post in the shade.
    Sure Wish I had a little dvd player on my forklift at work... no, wait, that would be dangerous.


  24. #24
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    @proEuphie: I accept your apology from one of your previous posts, but again I do not know what you were trying to say. That whole "sinner" bit has been used by you before (and you used it again). In fact, its practically word for word from the previous time you used it (you are apparently trying to preach something, otherwise you wouldn't be repeating this three times), except that you were talking specifically about me rather than anime fans in general (which is why I ignored it the first time but got offended this time). Here is a quote from one of your previous posts:

    "But I can't help thinking that it is a bad deed to ever advocate the more violent or brutal option, even when discussing fictional events. A person who chooses violence in real life does so as a result of many influences over his lifetime, each of which makes him a tiny bit more or less likely to commit violence. I think it is better to be one of the anti-violence influences."

    Pardon me? Here is another quote from you:

    "And here is another way to undo the geass:
    Lelouch captures a bunch of Britannian soldiers at the Fuji massacre site. He takes one and says he is sentenced to die by gunshot for taking part in the massacre, but instead Zero will burn him at the stake unless he helps Zero. This girl CC will give him a geass power, and if that geass power is the power to undo one of Zero's geass commands, the soldier will be shot instead of burned at the stake. CC gives a power to the soldier, they bring in Euphemia, Zero tells the soldier to undo the geass command, and CC checks if the geass is gone from Euphemia. If it is gone, Lelouch shoots the soldier, if not Lelouch ties him to a stake and lights the fire and brings in the next soldier to try again."

    Ignoring the fact that that wouldn't even work (Geass powers are based on one's inner most desires, not necessarily what's needed at the time, so Lelouch will end up killing an unknown amount of soldiers before realizing its not working), its apparently bad for me to say that Euphemia had to die because she was a threat to all those around her and that apparently makes me violent (even though we are discussing a cartoon), but its okay to kill a bunch of soldiers on the off chance that it could save one (count them: one) person? And you used that "sin" quote again (in case you didn't notice, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about this). Like I said before, despite what I say about Euphemia, I won't change the fact that she is dead. I did not influence that. Lelouch didn't influence that either (although he did kill her). The creators did that. I could be a "sinner" (I would appreciate you not calling me that again) for losing hope in Euphemia and saying that she is better of dead (I didn't "lose hope", for she WAS ALREADY DEAD; what hope is there to be had?), but having hope in her is not going to change the overall fact that she is dead. You can say that you are a better person for not giving up on her and trying to figure out how to keep her alive, HOWEVER, that does not stop the fact that she died before any of us decided our opinions on this. In fact, we wouldn't be here other wise. I can say that Euphemia had to die until my face turned blue but that does NOT mean that I decided her fate. And it doesn't mean anything. People, not just anime fans, talk about television characters all the time. If one person thinks that a character should die, that's honestly their opinion and you are not automatically a better person because you think the person should live.

    Like I said before, Euphemia's personality (or anyone's personality, mind you) is not locked or suppressed while under the influence of the Geass. Just because she is acting nice does not mean that the Geass is wearing of (in fact, it is the sign of absolutely nothing). She greeted Zero since she knew that he was her half-brother Lelouch and talked about the SAZ, which was the whole point of him being there in the first place (the memories of the SAZ would not be suppressed). Of course, creating the SAZ completely contradicts her current action of killing every Japanese she can find. When Lelouch shot her, she said, "Lelouch, why?" Whether this means she broke the Geass or not is not really clear. Even while under the influence of the Geass, she would be completely confused as to why her beloved half-brother just shot her in the stomach. If the gun shot broke the Geass (since would she physically incapable of carrying out much of anything once being shot, as per the rule), she would be even more confused as to why Lelouch shot her. So, saying "Lelouch, why?" doesn't necessarily mean she came out of the Geass (which is obvious since the Geass came back when she was in the hospital).

    Speaking of her being shot, have you ever heard the phrase "Every time you place logic into an anime, God kills a catgirl?" This basically means that certain logical approaches to actions in anime not only do not work, but one is wasting their time trying to figure them out. Most people are aware that it takes only about a second to fall backwards under normal gravity. But there is no point in calculating that in a slow motion scene. The whole POINT of a slow motion scene is to allow more time for an action to take place. They slowed down the scene where Euphemia is shot to allow her to say "Lelouch, why?", knowing that under normal circumstances, she probably wouldn't be able to open her mouth before falling on the ground. Lelouch even said an entire sentence to her while she was falling! So, trying to figure out if she came out of the Geass based on this is pointless.

    Now, to the "more pressing" matter: saving Euphemia. Lelouch NEVER intended on saving Euphemia's life in the first place, so there is no real point in offering tips to the contrary. He already threatened to shot her once before, and at the SAZ, he decided to have her shot him, make him look like a martyr, and to hell with the consequences of what happened to Euphemia. That was the original plan. Once she started shooting people, he decided to use the situation to his advantage and exploit Euphemia. He COULD have restrained her (actually, Lelouch has zero muscle power, so who knows if this would work). He COULD have tied her up. He COULD have captured her. He COULD have made her a prisoner. He COULD have saved her life. HOWEVER, that was NEVER part of the plan to begin with. He wanted to exploit Euphemia to the fullest during that situation, which was to blame the massacre on her, kill her (might as well; the Japanese would never except any punishment less than death for Euphemia), make the Japanese riot against Britannia and create an entirely new nation (matching the original plan).

    To answer your question (since you danced around it many, many times), no, Euphemia didn't escape the Geass. This comes from both my opinion and your own. I say she not only didn't escape the Geass before she was shot, but she didn't "escape" the Geass until she ultimately died. So my answer is no. Since you have never directly answered your own question, let me give it for you: Euphemia was really, REALLY close to breaking the Geass when Lelouch arrived. By the time he was there, the Geass barely had any control over her. However, "barely" does not mean "none" or "broken". Remember, your question was whether or not she broke the Geass BEFORE Lelouch shot her. Apparently, the answer would be: no.

    Piggybacking off of blackrosetwilight, after all this discussion Euphemia is still dead. While Euphemia stood out as a character in Code Geass, she does not stand out as a character by herself. In fact, Euphemia mirrors Lacus Clyne (from Gundam SEED, which is also made by Sunrise) from the royalty, to the pacifism, to the befriending of a soldier (who becomes her "lover") to the long pink hair and high voice (Lacus Clyne might as well be Euphemia's sister, if not her twin). Both girls are even 16 (until the time skip in Gundam SEED Destiny)! What I am basically trying to say is, when it comes to Euphemia, you need to calm down a bit. Its one thing to be a fan, but you are accusing people (us) of committing deadly sins and having violent tendencies because they (we) supposedly "lost hope" in an already dead cartoon character.
    Part two of my reply. 04/15/09. I believe that in Lelouch's original plan for the opening of the SAZ Euphemia would either escape, be killed in the fighting, or be captured. I don't know the probablilities of those three outcomes. What was Lelouch planning to to with Euphemia if she was captured? I believe that there were three possibilities, make a big show of graciously pardoning her, use her as a hostage, or kill her, and I just thought of a fourth -- lock her up for possibly the rest of her life.

    Or pardoning her and locking her up could be considered two different extremes of the same policy, which could be called keeping her alive but not using her as a hostage.

    Lelouch might pardon her for shooting him (under his geass command) and let her go. Or he might pardon her and keep her with him as a guest, perhaps hoping to turn her into a supporter of the Black Knights or a go-between in negotiations.

    Or he might keep her locked up forever as a prisoner to punish her for trying to interfere with his revolution and for being the daughter of her father. Perhaps he would visit her from time to time to gloat about her failure and his success.

    If Lelouch estimated that there was a 95 percent chance that Euphemia would be killed, a three percent chance that she would escape, and a two percent chance that she would be captured; or perhaps a 98 percent chance that she would escape, a one percent chance she would be killed, and a one percent chance that she would be captured, he might not spend much thought on what to do with, for, or to Euphemia in the unlikely chance that she was captured.

    But if Lelouch estimated that here was a ten percent chance that Euphemia would be killed, a fifteen percent chance that she would escape, and a seventy five percent chance that she would be captured, then he would consider what he personally wanted to do with, for, or to Euphemia if she was captured , and which course of action would be best for his revolution.

    Lelouch might reasonably believe that it would be best for his revolution if Euphemia escaped from the fighting at the Fuji stadium. I believe the point of the Zero Requiem was to gather all the hate in the world on one person, so the hate would die when he died. So if Euphemia was killed at the stadium the hatred against her personally would vanish leaving only hatred against Britannia in general to fuel his revolution.

    It would be much better for keeping the Japanese motivated if Euphemia escaped to the Tokyo settlement and was not killed or captured until the vengeful rebels captured Tokyo. So Lelouch might decide that if Euphemia was captured at Fuji to take her as a prisoner to Tokyo and then have her killed or imprisoned or pardoned as part of the victory ceremony.

    And so Lelouch might decide that when he gave Euphemia a geass order to shoot him he would also command her that if she was captured by the rebels she would not do anything to make them them pity her but would keep their hatred for her alive, probably by defiantly insulting them. This would make them want her dead even more, and would make a bigger impression at the victory ceremony when Lelouch had her killed or graciously pardoned her and set her free or reduced her punishment to imprisonment.

    This is what Lelouch might have though about if he believed there would be a large probability that Euphemia would be captured at Fuji. (to be continued) [/quote]

    04/16/09
    If Lelouch thought about the conservation of hatred when planning his revolution he might have worried about wasting the hatred of Euphemia when she was killed. So he might have planned to save the hatred and direct it against Cornelia and the Emperor after Euphemia was killed or before she was killed (and thus possibly preventing her death).

    So he might have planned to claim that his spies reported that Cornelia had been putting heavy pressure on Euphemia to follow some plan of the Emperor's recently and that plan was probably a plan to assassinate him at the SAZ opening. Or he might have planned to claim that Euphemia had acted very erratically at their private meeting and might be insane. And suggest that being the daughter of Emperor Charles had driven her insane. I guess that if Euphemia was alive to hear those words she would have been grateful for them even if they were lies.

    If Lelouch had any plans to directed the hatred of Euphemia against Cornelia and/or the Emperor he might have remembered them after he gave he the geass command to kill the Japanese. He might have told the Black Knights that Euphemia had seemed to be taken over by some kind of mind control (which after all was the truth) and that her order to massacre the Japanese must be the work of some Britannian or Japanese opponent of the SAZ plan who made her ruin it (also true). Thus he could conserve the hatred of her and direct it against his main enemies, and possibly save the life of his childhood playmate Euphemia who he had just made peace with after hating her for years.

    But he didn't do that so he probably didn't have any such plans.

    The curious thing about Lelouch's plan for disrupting the SAZ is that a lot of things would have happened that he couldn't control. The last time I saw episode 22 Lelouch certainly said that he would seem like a messiah to the Japanese after recovering from his wound, so apparently Lelouch was definitely planning to be wounded by Euphemia, if not as badly as it may have looked.

    So Lelouch would have unconscious or faking it for minutes or hours while critical parts of his plan were happening, and the only person who would have known any of Lelouch's secret intentions was CC. That is an unusual plan for such a control freak as Lelouch. And there would be a good chance that Euphemia would escape or be killed while Lelouch was out of the picture, so perhaps Lelouch never bothered to think about what he would do with, for, or to Euphemia if he recovered to find out that she was a prisoner.

    Lelouch was planning on overthrowing the Britannians in Japan at least as early as episode 21, where his coup plans were mentioned. I don't know how he planned that his coup would begin. To me the best kind of coup would be if everyone went to bed one night and the next morning they woke up to find Black Knight patrols marching down the streets and the news reported that all the Brittannian soldiers in the Tokyo garrison had been killed or captured so fast that the citizens heard and suspect nothing. Certainly the Japanese were so discontented that they wouldn't have complained that the black Knights acted without any particular recent provocation from the Britannians.

    But Lelouch, with his flare for the dramatic, probably intended that his revolution would be sparked by some violent incident, and so when Euphemia announced her plan for the Special Administrative Zone Lelouch probably quickly modified his plans so that a violent incident at the opening of the SAZ would spark the revolution. Lelouch/Zero could have simply met with Euphemia at the opening and said that the SAZ looked promising and that the Black knights would cut down on their activity for a while to see how well it worked out. And they would stop all public activity while l preparing for a coup that (Lelouch thought) could not possibly fail and would start the coup without warning when they were fully ready.

    A lot of people, especially Euphemia, would be disappointed in Zero for lying, but success would be its own justification. And although the SAZ plan might reduce Japanese support for the Black Knights, there would be millions of discontented Japanese willing to continue and increase their support of the Black Knights, at least until the sAZ started to work well and was also enlarged to include their part of Japan - and neither of those events was guaranteed to happen.

    So Lelouch's coup did not really need to have the opening of the SAZ disrupted dramatically, let alone in the particular way that Lelouch was planning to disrupt it. The plan Lelouch chose was merely one of many, many options, including doing nothing at the opening but continuing to prepare for the coup and striking when everything was ready.

    The soldiers at the stadium who would be killed if Lelouch's plan went off as planned would probably be from the garrisons of Tokyo and nearby regions, and so would have been in danger of being killed in the coup anyway, if it started at some other time.

    But the crowd of Japanese in the stadium may have come from every corner of Japan, from Kyushu to Hokkaido, including many regions were there would be little fighting and little danger for them in the coup. So having the coup start with a violent riot while they were in the stadium was putting their lives in danger.

    Lelouch was not planning on having the crowd boo and throw rotten tomatoes at Euphemia after she shot him. He was planning for a revolution to break out and for the Black Knights to win a victory at the stadium and lead a massive revolt which would capture Tokyo and proclaim an independent Japan. And Lelouch expected it to happen while he was unconscious for at least a few critical minutes.

    Clearly he expected crowds of Japanese to rush toward the stage where Euphemia had just shot him and toward other groups of Britannians throughout the stadium. And the normal procedure for the Britannians would be to shoot down the onrushing mobs. It would have been a bloodbath The angry Japanese would have been slaughtered until the Black Knights arrived and started to slaughter the Britannains. (to be continued) [/quote]

    04/18/09 Of course Lelouch might believe the Japanese crowd would be so numerous they would simply overrun the Britannians. But he probably didn't since in the actual fighting following the massacre order the Britannians drove the surviving Japanese from the stadium and chased them though the streets. So Lelouch would expect the Japanese to be slaughtered until the Black Knights arrived, and then maybe the Black Knights would have been slaughtered. The Black Knights might have found the Britannains massed in the stadium and ready to repulse any attack and Britannian reinforcements would be coming.

    Did Lelouch plan to give Euphemia an order to pursue the Japanese through the streets after their attack on the Britannians was defeated? That would disperse the Brittannians much as they were dispersed following Euphemia's massacre order, and make them a lot easier for the Black knights to defeat in detail. And of course the Japanese casualties would have been similar to those suffered in the Fuji Massacre.

    That is only speculation.

    But Lelouch clearly believed that most Japanese already loved and trusted and admired Zero so much that they would go berserk if they saw him treacherously shot and would throw away their lives in a frenzied effort to avenge him. And how did he return that love and adoration? By planning to trick the Japanese in the stadium, who hoped to gain most of the rights they desired through peaceful means, into starting a revolution. And getting thousands of them killed. And by tricking all the millions of Japanese to support the revolution and join it, with thousands more being killed all over Japan as a result of his lies.

    And Lelouch clearly saw how much Euphemia still loved him and Nunnally. In "Island of the Gods" she was clearly overjoyed to confirm her suspicion that Zero Was Lelouch and to learn that Nunnally was still alive. And she never once, on the air, complained to him about killing her brother Clovis or pointing a gun at her (and probably seriously considering whether to kill her) but just enjoyed being with him again. And she kept his true identity and later his address secret. With enemies like Euphemia, who needs friends?

    Lelouch did not respond in kind to Euphemia's love. He didn't have to, but the least he could have done was move her from his "kill" list to his "don't kill" list. But he planned to violate her trust and use her to start his revolution and probably be killed.

    So Lelouch was planning, possibly with CC, the person he would most likely trust with his deepest secrets, to start a bloodbath in which thousands of Japanese who trusted Zero would be tricked into dying, and in which someone who really loved and trusted Lelouch would probably be killed.

    That is planning mass murder of thousands of Japanese and Britannians who would be killed and seriously endangering the life of trusting Euphemia.

    Lelouch came to the opening of the SAZ planning to murder thousands of people to achieve his goals and attempt the murder of Euphemia. And just what goal were they going to be sacrificed for? To sabotage the SAZ and start Lelouch's revolution in a very dramatic way, though quite possibly not the most effective way.

    But in Lelouch's conversation with Euphemia she convinced him to make peace with her, and they were a brother and sister again. And then Euphemia asked if Lelouch really could have made her shoot him and he said that he could make her do anything, even kill the Japanese. And since his geass had just come on full time his words became a command to kill the Japanese.

    So the writers used the accidental geass command to try to erase Lelouch's guilt and give him his revolution when he no longer wanted it. But that does not work.

    If a man climbs up a mountain to start a landslide which will destroy his hated neighbor's house but the landslide goes in the wrong direction and wipes out his own house with his beloved wife and children inside he is guilty of murdering them. Because their unintended deaths were the result of his crime of attempted murder of his neighbor (and the neighbor's family?).

    If a wife tries to shoot her husband for cheating on her but the bullet misses and kills an innocent bystander she is guilty of murdering the innocent bystander because that death was a result of her crime of attempted murder of her husband.

    Lelouch would never have said that he could make Euphemia kill the Japanese if she had not asked him if he could have made her shoot him. She would not have asked that if Lelouch had not told her about his plan to make her shoot him and start a revolution. Lelouch would not have told her about his plans to make her shoot him and start a revolution if he had not made those plans earlier and was not still intending to carry out those plans. Lelouch told Euphemia about his plans when he was still intending to carry them out (he probably did so to make her realize how he had defeated her). Therefore telling Euphemia about his plans was a part of his crimes of attempted mass murder and attempted murder of her.

    The Fuji Massacre was the direct result of Lelouch's earlier plan to start a revolution and trick thousands of people into dying for it. Lelouch (and possibly CC) was guilty of murdering everybody who was killed in the Fuji Massacre and the Black Rebellion.

    Some people say that Lelouch did not murder Euphemia by shooting her, because they claim that killing her was the only way to save the Japanese from her. They claim that killing Euphemia was therefore a justified homicide, that Lelouch could not be blamed for.killing her. I do not believe that shooting Euphemia was a justified homicide. I believe it was murder.

    But even if killing Euphemia was a justified homicide, it was would have been one which occurred as a result of Lelouch's earlier criminal plans for mass slaughter. Therefore if Euphemia died in any way, even one that was otherwise justified and blameless, that was a result of the command Lelouch gave her, Lelouch murdered her.(to be continued)[/quote]
    Last edited by proEuphie; 04-18-2009 at 11:57 PM.

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    Part two ends... sorry no comment here I didnt bother to even read the newest post, its just too long, but "ahem" now how will wolfgirl90 answer proEuphie's counter post?(cueing over dramatic music) til next time.

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