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Thread: Religion's role

  1. #76
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    Yes, but it is still good to know what one another feels about a topic.


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    Some people just express how they feel a little more intensly than others. Especially when it might deal with what happens to the after death, war, ect.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Waverly View Post
    Centralized power of any sort is incredibly prone towards corruption and misuse. It attracts power grubbing sociopaths like files are attracted to excrement. Any and all organizations that follow this pattern, be they religions, corporations or unions, are inherently detrimental to society.
    Ah, but then the problem lies more with the scope than with the existence of said organization. According to wiktionary, organized religion is "A religion in which rules exist to govern the means by which adherents participate in the religion." If such a religion is small in scope, then there's less of an attraction for sociopaths to commandeer it, unless they're particularly ambitious and look to expand its influence once in power. Even smaller organizations within larger organizations can be "pure," for example a church that is well-liked and supports its community as much as its community supports it may exist within a much larger, corrupt hierarchy.

    This is why, as I mentioned in my first reply in this thread, I support the concept behind organized religion, but am mistrustful of its application on a worldwide scale.
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  4. #79
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    Ok the way i see it leave the people be they can chose on what ever they want to do.Look im christian i do god and christ but i do other things like my girlfreind is halve pakistani so she does her traditions and when im there i do them too.We are also belive in the chineese sprital thing with chaka but basicly the world would be much beter place if other people didnt cause so much kak on each others religion just worry on what you belive in and sont wory about other things
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  5. #80
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    religion is the thing that unites people or the thing that breaks the friendship..
    but religion is good..
    i believe in God and he has helped me a lot..
    religion is what people believe in..i don't have the words to explain..

    the soul would have no rainbow
    had the eyes no tears~
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanosuke23 View Post
    Ah, but then the problem lies more with the scope than with the existence of said organization. According to wiktionary, organized religion is "A religion in which rules exist to govern the means by which adherents participate in the religion." If such a religion is small in scope, then there's less of an attraction for sociopaths to commandeer it, unless they're particularly ambitious and look to expand its influence once in power. Even smaller organizations within larger organizations can be "pure," for example a church that is well-liked and supports its community as much as its community supports it may exist within a much larger, corrupt hierarchy.

    This is why, as I mentioned in my first reply in this thread, I support the concept behind organized religion, but am mistrustful of its application on a worldwide scale.
    So what you're saying is that there's less potential for abuse of power regarding people who believe their fate is inexorably tied to one person or a group of people's hands in smaller groups? So it would be advantageous if religions were Heaven's Gate sized, or Jonestown sized, versus Catholicism sized? I sort of agree, from a snarky cynical POV. The only difference between smaller organized religions and larger ones is that the small ones tend to internalize their abuse of power, and the large ones tend to externalize it. There are of course medium size ones that do both frequently- Mormonism and Scientology come to mind.
    Ehhh, I dunno if I'll stick around. We'll see.

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  7. #82
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    It gives people hope, I suppose. =/
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  8. #83
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    Well, as long as we maintain more or less complete secularism, a lot of the problems regarding religious force-feeding will be suppressed. By this I mean the shoving of one's religion down everybody else's throats, through the law anyhow. As for the fundamentalists who protest against gay rights, etc, there's nothing much that can be done about that. We all have the right to freedom of speech after all.
    If we could only rid the world of the hatred caused by religion - no, rather by the people who derive some sort of hatred from religion, through misinterpretation or whatever, then insist on spreading it - then only the love and peace religion brings would be left and we'd have a lot less problems. I know I'm not directly addressing the question here but to be honest, I don't know what to say as my answer. Religion brings good things, but it also brings bad things. It's just a case of which is the more prominent.

  9. #84
    Senior Member Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manhattan_Project_2000 View Post
    So what you're saying is that there's less potential for abuse of power regarding people who believe their fate is inexorably tied to one person or a group of people's hands in smaller groups? So it would be advantageous if religions were Heaven's Gate sized, or Jonestown sized, versus Catholicism sized? I sort of agree, from a snarky cynical POV. The only difference between smaller organized religions and larger ones is that the small ones tend to internalize their abuse of power, and the large ones tend to externalize it. There are of course medium size ones that do both frequently- Mormonism and Scientology come to mind.
    So are YOU saying that any group with a central leader is detrimental to society? Where's the line drawn here? Only religion is bad? Well I suppose if you believe religion in general is bad news, but since I don't I guess that's that.

    As for Heaven's Gate and Jonestown, those are two incredibly extreme examples. Let's say in the entire state of New York, how many churches happily coexist with society without bringing any harm to the community? I can count four in my neighborhood alone, and that's just spanning a ten-block radius. I suppose I could also point out that if the abuse of power is internalized, there's always the option of leaving but then we get into the "but what if you can't?" hypotheticals and quite frankly I'm too sick to argue any further about something I care so little about.
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  10. #85
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    i don't like the idea of a monotheistic religion I don't know why but somehow telling everyon else that their gods have no power and arn't real and that there is only one god and how they abuse the god they created to say that some people don't deserve the right to live and some are deserving of the title saint. I mean the religion i mainly winge about is christianity because it's such a big religion and i never really get told about any other religions , although i have met a few pagans . a few days ago i got told by a christian that i think child rape is ok because im an atheist , just because i don't beleive in your religion , that doesn't make me the devil . I mean every religion has it's bad and it's good it's just the extremely religious to the kinda extent where it is harming people ( that lady from trading spouses "GARGOYLES" etc ).
    religions role is up to those who chose to follow it .
    Last edited by Pastel-pure; 01-19-2009 at 07:01 AM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanosuke23 View Post
    So are YOU saying that any group with a central leader is detrimental to society? Where's the line drawn here? Only religion is bad? Well I suppose if you believe religion in general is bad news, but since I don't I guess that's that.

    As for Heaven's Gate and Jonestown, those are two incredibly extreme examples. Let's say in the entire state of New York, how many churches happily coexist with society without bringing any harm to the community? I can count four in my neighborhood alone, and that's just spanning a ten-block radius. I suppose I could also point out that if the abuse of power is internalized, there's always the option of leaving but then we get into the "but what if you can't?" hypotheticals and quite frankly I'm too sick to argue any further about something I care so little about.
    Let's take the Waco sect of Branch Davidians as another example. The head loony there absolved the marriages of all the women, and declared that they were his and his alone, so that he could renew the bloodline of David (which he apparently possessed). He also "married" minors, etcetera. This is in addition to amassing a cache of illegally modified firearms, keeping a siege going even when it was clearly a losing endeavor, and that isn't even going into the unsubstantiated stuff like who lit the fire. Can you imagine any secular group getting away with this stuff without the threat of actual violence and and still being loved and respected? Independent of the intellectual question of the truth behind their belief, I don't think anyone is responsible enough to head an organized religion, be it the "extreme" examples of cults or the "mainstream" examples of the Vatican (and other denominations) discouraging condom use in a world full of AIDS.

    And to be fair, my examples were more directed to your hand waving in regards to the abuse of power in small religions, this part in particular:

    If such a religion is small in scope, then there's less of an attraction for sociopaths to commandeer it, unless they're particularly ambitious and look to expand its influence once in power.
    Ehhh, I dunno if I'll stick around. We'll see.

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  12. #87
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    If you are able to choose your religion (if any) then it really isn;t a curse. It really becomes a curse when others try to force their beliefs upon you. Beliefs you didn't ask for..., and you DON'T want. For instance, Christians (not all of them and no offense to anyone) should stop trying to push their beliefs on the rest of us, like ads advertising Christian-based music. How many other religions do you know that advertise the music they listen to. I don't see many Jewish music ads on TV. Overall, if a religion was optional and not forced upon, then it is not really a curse or disease in my mind.
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_jew1 View Post
    Overall, if a religion was optional and not forced upon, then it is not really a curse or disease in my mind.
    Ah, if only.
    This works in the west circa 2009.

    Imagine being non theistic in the middle east?
    In history we've seen quite a bit of "believe in this or die"
    The case has been too often that you have no option.

    I won't even get into the push of Religion into modern politics.
    That's been covered here.

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    Default I'm not a religious person bear in mind.

    I don't think religion should be out-lawed. Wouldn't make any difference. Honestly I think everyone should have something to believe in, to help them keep going in life but then again I'm just giving an honest and humble opinion.

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    Religion's role? That's a nonsense question. Different religions have different objectives, sizes, and levels of commitment. Thus there are different effects on their followers' societies.

    What annoys me about these religious discussions is that they always end up with people bashing religion (or sometimes glorify, but this is the internet so who am I kidding?) for things of which no secular society would be guilty or deprived.

  16. #91
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    I've said this for a long time and I stand by it.

    Faith brings people together; religion tears people apart.

    Understanding the difference and why this is true is the first step to enlightenment.

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  17. #92
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    My view. Its neither.
    Relgion. I try not to call it that. I much prefer theory. Although, I practice Christanity.
    I dont like to wack it in ppls face. I just be who I am and they begin to ask I begin to answer.
    "Religion", can be used for good and evil, even if its made to project a good side of soceity. Take Hitler for a well known example. He minipulated the mind of German ppl saying that, he was invinsible and all becoz God. Christain belivers took that abord coz of the many failed assasination attem

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cless Alvein View Post
    I've said this for a long time and I stand by it.

    Faith brings people together; religion tears people apart.

    Understanding the difference and why this is true is the first step to enlightenment.
    Are you suggesting that religion has absolutely no faith in it, since you claim that faith and religion are two entirely different things that do not intersect?

    Faith and religion are different things by definition but it is very hard to separate faith out of religion, as if to say religion has no faith in it.

    Both faith and religion can bring people together. Common faiths have come together to form religions. While you can have faith in something and not be religious (depending on what that thing is), you can not be religious without faith. Religion only becomes harmful when it is used to control or oppress people and even then (depending on the teachings of the religion), only the person is the one responsible, not the entire religion itself.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  19. #94
    4: [Classified brah] Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Are you suggesting that religion has absolutely no faith in it, since you claim that faith and religion are two entirely different things that do not intersect?

    Faith and religion are different things by definition but it is very hard to separate faith out of religion, as if to say religion has no faith in it.
    You either haven't grasped what he's saying, or you're deliberately misunderstanding it (i.e. putting up a straw man). Either way, shame on you.
    Last edited by Eris; 01-27-2009 at 04:27 PM.

  20. #95
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    Personally, confess, I am an atheist at heart. I have a strong respect for tradition, and I observe Buddhist ceremonies like the rest of my family, especially on my mother's side. But at the core of my personality I have a strong materialist worldview and a highly skeptical attitude towards the transcedental. I was an avid reader of Richard Dawkins and his ilke when I was in high school and I at least on a superficial level agree with everything that he says in his argument against religion.

    However, I can't quite play along with the view that religion is an evil born of ignorance that should be dismissed as a superstition in a progressive world. The fact remains that there are certain aspects of human life that are unbearable to people without the "crutch" of religion, like death.

    It's impossible for people to face their own death without religion and live out their daily lives. Those who say they don't fear death aren't braver than the rest of us, they just lack imagination.

    In that quite formal context I "believe" in religion, in much the same sense that I "believe" in democracy or currency like the yen or dollar, even if I know that they both do not actually exist.

    [On that note. There are those who criticize the so-called evils or religion, like cults engaging in harmful activities or the Vatican condemning the use of contraceptives, on the grounds that their ideology is scientifically false.

    I also agree with this view to a point, in that fundementalism and dogmaticism are flaws inherently evident in the system of organized religion, but I'd like to point out another world-wide system that is basically based on lies, and with inherent major flaws; namely capitalism. Yet nobody in the modern world today except Marxists on the extreme left like (maybe) Alain Badiou would cite worldwide depression, bank robberies, minors prostituted to rich men, or poverty in third-world countries as grounds for the downthrow of the capitalist system, despite the fact that the very idea that the worthless scraps of paper in your wallet with which you buy your daily bread have any a priori value whatsoever is as false as the idea that the Earth was created in seven days by an omnipotent God.

    The fact that some people will play along unquestioningly to that particular falsehood (namely capitalism), yet criticise religion for being grounded on falsities, seems to me like a double standard and is every bit as ignorant as the views they are calling into question.]
    Last edited by Datenshi; 01-29-2009 at 10:42 AM.
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  21. #96
    Senior Member OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datenshi View Post

    The fact that some people will play along unquestioningly to that particular falsehood (namely capitalism), yet criticise religion for being grounded on falsities, seems to me like a double standard and is every bit as ignorant as the views they are calling into question.]
    Capitalism is not a falsehood. Capitalism is an economic system full of win.
    That you can go from the bottom to the top with hard work and innovation is an amazing thing. Don't compare capitalism with religion.

    Excessive government and religion are killers.
    I'm sorry, that's a matter of historical fact. It's no "so called evil" as so many have said. Religion, in and of itself IS illogical and hurts people by its nature. The holy books of many religions DEMAND in many cases that you kill non believers.

    I'm trying to remain respectful because my family is Catholic. I know the hope it brings. I understand faith and whatnot. It's just not rational. Read the bible. Read the other holy books. Stop and THINK. Honestly, I'd love more than just a knee jerk debate against and for religion. I think it would be great to have an honest discussion of the holy books, faith and why people like me had to walk away.
    Last edited by OmegaAlpha; 01-29-2009 at 12:00 PM.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pirate Ninja from SPACE View Post
    You either haven't grasped what he's saying, or you're deliberately misunderstanding it (i.e. putting up a straw man). Either way, shame on you.
    You don't think it's possible that maybe she just disagreed with him?
    This post has been approved by Dancing Alec™



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    Capitalism is not a falsehood. Capitalism is an economic system full of win.
    That you can go from the bottom to the top with hard work and innovation is an amazing thing. Don't compare capitalism with religion.
    I suggest you read some Marx (I wouldn't say all of it, God forbid). Many of his ideas have been proved to be false by history, but he still makes illuminating insights into the workings of captialist systems, like labor value and commodity fetishism. In any case, you misunderstand my terminology.

    When I say capitalism is a lie, that simply means that it doesn't exist on a purely objective level (you can't "point" at capitalism to prove to me it's there, much the same way as you can't objectively prove the existence of God). To use Husserl's terminology, capitalism exists as an arbitrary inter-subjective structure, and as such can both benefit or harm society in very real ways (e.g. a highly relevant example of the harmful effects of globalized capitalism may be the subprime mortage crisis in the U.S. and the subsequent bankruptcy of the Lehman Brothers causing recession in China, killing the families of poor workers who then lost their jobs) despite the fact that it doesn't objectively exist, which is where I drew the parallel to religion.

    In any case, any further discussion is going to go highly off topic so I'll leave it at that. Feh.
    Last edited by Datenshi; 01-29-2009 at 12:33 PM.
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  24. #99
    Senior Member OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha has a reputation beyond repute OmegaAlpha's Avatar
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    Yeah, we're going to disagree respectfully because I have read Marx.
    I disagree with everything the man ever wrote.
    I'm a free market capitalist to the core. Take care.

  25. #100
    4: [Classified brah] Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
    You don't think it's possible that maybe she just disagreed with him?
    She reformulated what he said, and pointed out the flaws with the new formulation. That's pretty much textbook strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Datenshi View Post
    I suggest you read some Marx (I wouldn't say all of it, God forbid). Many of his ideas have been proved to be false by history, but he still makes illuminating insights into the workings of captialist systems, like labor value and commodity fetishism. In any case, you misunderstand my terminology.
    The problem with the old communist texts is that what they called capitalism, and what we call capitalism today are two entirely different things. Capitalism back then was just as terrible as they described it. It had large issues, with a very few people making a lot of money, and the rest essentially living as slaves with no rights to speak of and no chance of making it out of poverty.

    However. Capitalism has changed over the last 150 or so years, partially as a reaction to Marx and communism. The lines between classes have blurred. The sad part is that socialism doesn't seem to realize this, and and keeps using the same arguments and terminology as they did 150 years ago, making the ideology largely unable to deal with the challenges that have arisen with capitalism today.

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