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Thread: Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight

  1. #126
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post


    You think that Lelouch can just waltz into Pendragon? No. The royal palace and the surrounding city of Pendragon is heavily guarded and has high amounts of security. He can't just Geass a guard; he would be killed before he even got close to the city. Remember, you are suggesting that this was done AS SOON AS he got the Geass. He had no support at the time and would be quite vulnerable. Also, since Lelouch planned to use people as pawns in the first place, there really is no point in giving alternatives to Lelouch's plan that would save more people, seeing as he could really care less.
    If Pendragon is a city of millions there should be hundreds or thousands of people entering and leaving it every hour. And what do you mean by heavy security? Like the security at the Pentagon, Cheyenne Mountain, the Kremlin, etc. etc.? Do you think that there is any place in the world today where anyone seriously expects an attack or infiltration by Lelouch with his command geass and so is prepared with adequate security measures to stop such an attack or infiltration? Is there any leader or government on Earth today so well guarded that Lelouch could not take over?

    And if you admit that Lelouch could probably find ways to get around any security measures on Earth today, I suggest you read the Lensman novels by E.E. Smith. The second-stage Lensmen and their main enemies had mental powers that put all geass users to shame. Any of the major agents could singlehandedly overthrow any government on Earth today from the other side of the planet -- or exterminate the human race.

    And why do you say there is no point in pointing out less violent and destructive ways of achieving Lelouch's goals, because Lelouch does not care about that? The entire point of many of my posts is is to pint out the difference between what a good person would do and what Lelouch does.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 06-04-2009 at 10:22 PM.

  2. #127
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post


    Of course, the only real reason you are trying to do this is, again, wrap this around Euphemia and your more than naive notions of a ideal leader and an ideal war, the thought of which makes no sense. As blackrosetwilight already pointed out, there is no such thing as an ideal war. Even though a country can have a pacifistic leader, that won't stop it from being attacked (hatred can form from anything). At that point, then what?

    From what I have understood from you, evil people (or rather, people YOU deem evil) deserve to die, while good people (or rather, people YOU deem good) deserve to live. And apparently the ends do not justify the means, no matter how good or evil and the means must be proportionate (these are your words, not mine).

    But you do not follow the latter completely. In one of your posts, you made a plan that involved killing hundreds upon hundreds of Britannian soldiers to save Euphemia, one person. Its not a proportional means (killing hundreds of people to save one person), but you would argue that the ends certainly DO justify the means at that point, yes?

    Right now, you remind me of Relena Peacecraft in Gundam Wing. She was a total pacifist but was also quite the hypocrite. You are either quite naive or a hypocrite.
    You say that there can be no such thing as an ideal war (i.e. one fought according to strict ideals of protecting noncombatants). In the Next sentence you say that even a country with a pacifistic leader can be attacked. That is a statement about the possible cause of a war, and is not connected very closely with the question of how a war should be fought. And you say that hatred can form from anything.

    Are you naive enough to believe that hatred is a major cause of most wars, instead of flaring up with great intensity during war and then subsiding to a lower level in peacetime? If so, I guess you are naive enough to believe that the Zero Requiem could work.

    You accuse me of being a hypocrite for saying the means must be proportional to the end and suggesting elsewhere that hundreds and hundreds of Britannian soldiers be sacrificed to save one person, Euphemia. Would I be a hypocrite for proposing that hundreds of insects, or plants, or bacteria be sacrificed to save the life of one person, or even a dog?

    No. And I wouldn't be a hypocrite for suggesting that hundreds of Nazi SS death camp guards or Mongol warriors (who had each massacred hundreds of civilians) be sacrificed to save the life of one good, deserving person. Nor would I be a hypocrite for suggesting that hundreds of Britannian soldiers who had taken part in a massacre be sacrificed to save the life of one good person like Euphemia.

    After all, demanding that people don't massacre is not exactly setting a impossibly high standard of behavior. For example, in my life I have never witnessed a single massacre.

    If someone has taken part in a massacre of his own free will he is evil and deserves to die. He can be executed by firing squad, burned at the stake, imprisoned for life, imprisoned for five to ten years and then released, given psychiatric treatment until he is cured of his willingness to obey evil orders, sold as a slave, fined, etc. etc. without violating the rights that he used to have before he committed a massacre. The life of a massacre participant has about the same value to society as the life of a bug or a bacteria, so sacrificing the lives of hundreds of them to save one good person is as proportionate as killing hundreds of insects or even rodents to save the life of one human, which is done countless times every day.

    And Euphemia did what no human being should be able to do. She resisted the geass at first, and she seemed to have almost entirely broken and defeated her geass command by the time Lelouch shot her. If Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years and showed incredible will power in so doing, Euphemia, who almost totally broke her geass about ten thousand times faster, can hardly be merely human. Thus it is logical to assume that Euphemia might some kind of supernatural or extraterrestrial being incarnated as a human, and that her life might be worth hundreds of human lives, just as a human life is worth hundreds of rodent lives.

    I have never seen Gundam Wing, but considering how much you despise Relena Peacecraft I suppose that I might like her if I ever do watch it.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 06-04-2009 at 11:38 PM.

  3. #128
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    If Pendragon is a city of millions there should be hundreds or thousands of people entering and leaving it every hour. And what do you mean by heavy security? Like the security at the Pentagon, Cheyenne Mountain, the Kremlin, etc. etc.? Do you think that there is any place in the world today where anyone seriously expects an attack or infiltration by Lelouch with his command geass and so is prepared with adequate security measures to stop such an attack or infiltration? Is there any leader or government on Earth today so well guarded that Lelouch could not take over?
    "Every time you put logic into anime, God kills a catgirl."

    Remember this phrase? Are you suggesting that I compare the real world security of a place like the Kremlin to Pendragon, a city that exists in a universe where there are large mechs that fly around using wings made out of energy? I don't think so. I said that Pendragon was well guarded and had large amounts of security because that is stated (over and over) in the anime. An unauthorized person can't even approach the city, let alone get in. Lelouch can't Geass a sniper, or a Knight approaching him in a Knightmare, or even fight someone, so that is the basis of what I said (remember, I am assuming, like you, that Lelouch went straight to Pendragon after getting the Geass; the Black Knights have not formed yet).

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Are you naive enough to believe that hatred is a major cause of most wars, instead of flaring up with great intensity during war and then subsiding to a lower level in peacetime? If so, I guess you are naive enough to believe that the Zero Requiem could work.
    Noooo...read what I said. I mentioned the hatred thing because a nation could be attacked for any reason. Even a peace loving, non-combatant nation could be invaded. My point was, if fighting against injustice is NEVER justified, what should a pacisifistic nation do if it was attacked? What should other nations do if another country was attacked for no reason?

    And the Zero Requiem DID work. The thing is, it can only do so much when it comes to world peace (that has to be done by the people themselves). Like I said, war can start from anything.

    [quote=proEuphie;2275314] And I wouldn't be a hypocrite for suggesting that hundreds of Nazi SS death camp guards or Mongol warriors (who had each massacred hundreds of civilians) be sacrificed to save the life of one good, deserving person. Nor would I be a hypocrite for suggesting that hundreds of Britannian soldiers who had taken part in a massacre be sacrificed to save the life of one good person like Euphemia.

    Let's go back to the quote, shall we?
    quote=proEuphie;2267185]No, fighting back against real or imaginary injustice is never either an ethical or a emotional imperative. People can and do chose whether to fight back or not even when what they value most is taken away from them.
    I called you a hypocrite bacause, while you say that fighting against real or imaginary injustice is never justified, you said that hundreds, if not thousands of Britanian soldiers should die, whether it was to either save Euphemia or just die for the crimes they committed. You can't have a pacifistic attitude about war and fighting for social injustice but then turn around and advocate the mass killing of a bunch of people because THEY committed a social injustice. That, my friend, is being a hypocrite.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    If someone has taken part in a massacre of his own free will he is evil and deserves to die. He can be executed by firing squad, burned at the stake, imprisoned for life, imprisoned for five to ten years and then released, given psychiatric treatment until he is cured of his willingness to obey evil orders, sold as a slave, fined, etc. etc. without violating the rights that he used to have before he committed a massacre. The life of a massacre participant has about the same value to society as the life of a bug or a bacteria, so sacrificing the lives of hundreds of them to save one good person is as proportionate as killing hundreds of insects or even rodents to save the life of one human, which is done countless times every day.
    Are you God, proEuphie? How do you know how much a human life, a plant's life, an animal's life, is worth? Sorry, but you are a hypocrite so long as you have the philosophy of "We shouldn't kill people...except those that kill other people", "Fighting against people is wrong...unless they do something terrible to us."

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And Euphemia did what no human being should be able to do. She resisted the geass at first, and she seemed to have almost entirely broken and defeated her geass command by the time Lelouch shot her. If Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years and showed incredible will power in so doing, Euphemia, who almost totally broke her geass about ten thousand times faster, can hardly be merely human. Thus it is logical to assume that Euphemia might some kind of supernatural or extraterrestrial being incarnated as a human, and that her life might be worth hundreds of human lives, just as a human life is worth hundreds of rodent lives.
    Did you forget that Nunnally resisted Lelouch's Geass too? I have said that over and over. Euphemia is not that special for resisting Lelouch's Geass since Nunnally did the exact same thing (and lasted quite a long time). But once again, I am going to drop it since there is an entire thread where we can talk about this.

    Again, proEuphie, while it is your opinion, since you are not some godlike being, I will assume that you really have no idea how much the life of a human being is worth.

    Since I am in the military, I know all to well about the value of a human life. When it comes to rats, its either their lives and diseases or my life and my health. Its not because one is worth more than the other. Since you have most likely have never been on a battlefield, it is easy for you to say that that you are willing to dispose the lives of hundreds upon thousands of lives to save one good person or rather, one person you perceive as good (remember, we are talking about a cartoon character here), while you are sitting behind a computer. Its easy when you are at home and you can't see those people in question. However, the situation is TOTALLY different once you are on the battlefield.

    Its because if this that I can sympathize with BOTH Lelouch and Suzaku and what they did. Both of them did things that helped people and both of them did things that harmed people. Its easy to think that "good" and "evil" are separate things when you think that you could never do anything evil yourself. However, life does not work that way.
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  4. #129
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    "Every time you put logic into anime, God kills a catgirl."
    NOOOOOO!!!!!! How many catgirls died because of proEuphy? and they were just taken off the endanger species list too, such "INJUSTICE" cannot go UNPUNISHED!!!!!!

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    NOOOOOO!!!!!! How many catgirls died because of proEuphy? and they were just taken off the endanger species list too, such "INJUSTICE" cannot go UNPUNISHED!!!!!!
    No don't get involved. They're in their own little world now. *shakes head*

    But I do have to say that catgirls were the only reason for my existance. If they're gone then what is a man to do?
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  6. #131
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    "Every time you put logic into anime, God kills a catgirl."

    Remember this phrase? Are you suggesting that I compare the real world security of a place like the Kremlin to Pendragon, a city that exists in a universe where there are large mechs that fly around using wings made out of energy? I don't think so. I said that Pendragon was well guarded and had large amounts of security because that is stated (over and over) in the anime. An unauthorized person can't even approach the city, let alone get in. Lelouch can't Geass a sniper, or a Knight approaching him in a Knightmare, or even fight someone, so that is the basis of what I said (remember, I am assuming, like you, that Lelouch went straight to Pendragon after getting the Geass; the Black Knights have not formed yet).
    Well, I always put logic into every fictional world I create. You claim that no unauthorized person can approach Pendragon, but Lelouch should be able to get all kinds of authorization with his geass. Perhaps catching the first plane to Pendragon might not be a good idea, but infiltrating Pendragon should be Lelouch's first plan, at least until he convinces himself that the security is too tight for him. He could read everything he could find about Pendragon security, use his geass to get people who might know about Pendragon security to tell him what they know, and try taking over the leaders in the government center at the Tokyo Settlement. If the security there is too tight he could expect it would probably be too tight at Pendragon.




    What I wrote was that fighting back against real or perceived injustice was never either an ethical or an emotional imperative. perhaps my words were a little too fancy for you. What I said was that fighting back against injustice is never the only good thing to do. Sometimes not fighting back might be almost as good, just as good, er even better than fighting back. And that people's emotions do not always force them to fight back. Sometimes they restrain themselves for various emotional or logical reasons. I never wrote that fighting back against against injustice was never justified. There is a difference between not always mandatory and never justified.

    So you say that the Zero Requiem worked for days, or weeks, or months, or years. But world peace has to come from the people. In that case I expect that wars will start up again fairly soon after the last episode. Slowly at first, but soon they will be back to the normal historical rate in the Code Geass alternate universe. And keep it up at that rate for another ten thousand or ten million years perhaps.



    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    And I wouldn't be a hypocrite for suggesting that hundreds of Nazi SS death camp guards or Mongol warriors (who had each massacred hundreds of civilians) be sacrificed to save the life of one good, deserving person. Nor would I be a hypocrite for suggesting that hundreds of Britannian soldiers who had taken part in a massacre be sacrificed to save the life of one good person like Euphemia.

    I called you a hypocrite bacause, while you say that fighting against real or imaginary injustice is never justified, you said that hundreds, if not thousands of Britanian soldiers should die, whether it was to either save Euphemia or just die for the crimes they committed. You can't have a pacifistic attitude about war and fighting for social injustice but then turn around and advocate the mass killing of a bunch of people because THEY committed a social injustice. That, my friend, is being a hypocrite.
    I didn't say that fighting against real or imaginary injustice was never justified, I wrote that it was never mandatory. I didn't advocate the mass killing of people because they committed social injustice. I advocated the mass killing of people because they committed mass murder and took part in a massacre. That is a lot worse than committing social injustice, although I suppose that taking part in a massacre could be considered an extreme form of social injustice by some definitions.

    Anyway, those hundreds of Britannian soldiers would never be sacrificed by Lelouch in an attempt to cure Euphemia because 1) Lelouch is too evil to capture even one person who would make a valuable hostage, let alone hundreds of Britannian soldiers, so those soldiers were all killed in the battle or escaped 2) Lelouch knows that such a plan wouldn't work for reasons you explained 3) we don't even know if there were hundreds of Britannian soldiers there since all Code Geass statistics are very vague.

    But if someone you loved suffered from a deadly disease which the doctors didn't know how to cure since they needed to perform unethical human experiments on many subjects, and a helpful genie brought you hundreds of SS death camp guards, or Mongol warriors who had each massacred hundreds of men and women and children in one of Genghis Khan's bloodiest campaigns, would you refuse to let the doctors experiment on them? Or would you consider their lives worth less than that of one good person?

    This whole matter was brought up because you insisted that since Euphemia could not be cured of her compulsion to kill Japanese she had to be killed, since there was no way to guarantee that she would not escape and possibly kill a few more Japanese. But I said that keeping Euphemia a prisoner with very little chance of escaping would be no big deal for an organization fighting to take over an entire country. Lelouch planned to capture Tokyo that very night. And then somebody would sooner or later get around to releasing all the political prisoners from Britannian prisons, and then Lelouch would have a lot of empty cells available for Euphemia. And in the meanwhile carrying Euphemia around in the hand of his nightmare like King Kong with Ann Darrow would be a very good weapon against any Britannians he happened to meet. And when Lelouch got into the G1 for his march on Tokyo Euphemia could be sedated, tied up, and locked inside some locker or closet inside a locked chamber of the G1 and she wouldn't be any trouble until it was time to transfer her to a new cell.

    And I also pointed out that If Euphemia was kept a prisoner there would be three ways of curing her before the geass canceler became available in a year:
    1) Getting VV to undo the geass command, a simple matter of negotiation for Lelouch, or Cornelia, or whoever had custody of Euphemia. Most immortals should be terrified of poverty and willing to do anything easy and within their ethics for money they can invest for hundreds of years in one of their many secret retirement accounts.
    2) Going through a bunch of Britannian soldiers until one of them got a geass power to undo Lelouch's commands. You convinced me it would not work.
    3 ) She was apparently struggling against the geass command on a subconscious level while under its control, and while she was talking to Lelouch she seemed to be freeing herself from the geass command's control. Thus if Euphemia was kept a prisoner she would probably cure herself within minutes, hours, or days.
    I believe that # 1 and # 3 are still very plausible was for Euphemia to become entirely or almost entirely (almost entirely could make for occasional suspenseful moments) cured of her geass and thus a much lesser threat of ever killing any Japanese people in the future.

    But the hundreds of Britannian prisoners you think it would have been evil for Lelouch to kill in an attempt to cure Euphemia would have collectively been at least as dangerous a potential treat as Euphemia, since if they rejoined the Britannian army sometime in the future they might receive and obey other massacre orders in the future.

    It's midnight and I'm quitting halfway though my response. Please don't start responding to me until I finish responding to you.

    Are you God, proEuphie? How do you know how much a human life, a plant's life, an animal's life, is worth? Sorry, but you are a hypocrite so long as you have the philosophy of "We shouldn't kill people...except those that kill other people", "Fighting against people is wrong...unless they do something terrible to us."



    Did you forget that Nunnally resisted Lelouch's Geass too? I have said that over and over. Euphemia is not that special for resisting Lelouch's Geass since Nunnally did the exact same thing (and lasted quite a long time). But once again, I am going to drop it since there is an entire thread where we can talk about this.

    Again, proEuphie, while it is your opinion, since you are not some godlike being, I will assume that you really have no idea how much the life of a human being is worth.

    Since I am in the military, I know all to well about the value of a human life. When it comes to rats, its either their lives and diseases or my life and my health. Its not because one is worth more than the other. Since you have most likely have never been on a battlefield, it is easy for you to say that that you are willing to dispose the lives of hundreds upon thousands of lives to save one good person or rather, one person you perceive as good (remember, we are talking about a cartoon character here), while you are sitting behind a computer. Its easy when you are at home and you can't see those people in question. However, the situation is TOTALLY different once you are on the battlefield.

    Its because if this that I can sympathize with BOTH Lelouch and Suzaku and what they did. Both of them did things that helped people and both of them did things that harmed people. Its easy to think that "good" and "evil" are separate things when you think that you could never do anything evil yourself. However, life does not work that way.[/quote]
    Last edited by proEuphie; 06-12-2009 at 10:04 PM.

  7. #132
    Senior Member Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian's Avatar
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    proEuphie, I don't know if you realized that but you come off as obsessed and disgusting. By disgusting I mean I have never EVER met someone who came to a forum to discuss only ONE anime. Not just that you're writing essays about a fictional show.

    I'd say god speed you, black emperor but this is just....nasty.
    Last edited by Diocletian; 06-09-2009 at 12:01 AM.

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diocletian View Post
    proEuphie, I don't know if you realized that but you come off as obsessed and disgusting. By disgusting I mean I have never EVER met someone who came to a forum to discuss only ONE anime. Not just that you're writing essays about a fictional show.

    I'd say god speed you, black emperor but this is just....nasty.
    To each their own, right? But I don't think she can hear you anyway. As I said before, she went through a road that has no return.
    If Minecraft had a Japanese intro.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=H5qFZjuKet4

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  9. #134
    Senior Member Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian has a reputation beyond repute Diocletian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SigmaSD View Post
    To each their own, right? But I don't think she can hear you anyway. As I said before, she went through a road that has no return.
    I've seen a Gundam otaku that started about 20 threads and even then it wasn't as bad as this. I think she forgot Euphenieiaknaskjd is dead and stuff.

    To each their own shouldn't go this far. What does she have, like 100 posts? Poor wolfgirl...

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diocletian View Post
    To each their own shouldn't go this far. What does she have, like 100 posts? Poor wolfgirl...

    Well I guess so. But you shouldn't feel bad for wolfgirl. Debating and standing strong in arguments is what she does best. *chuckles*
    If Minecraft had a Japanese intro.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=H5qFZjuKet4

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  11. #136
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    Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffff.
    First thing I see is a friggin wall of text.

    This also veered way the hell off the original topic's question.

    I simply have this to say...
    It's a friggin anime, and everything that we come up is all HYPOTHETICAL.

    There's no real use to argue that either person is entirely correct on a threshold of hypothesis based on an animation.

  12. #137
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SigmaSD View Post
    To each their own, right? But I don't think she can hear you anyway. As I said before, she went through a road that has no return.
    Hey I've hitched hike down that roads lots of time before and thats how I met the Wizard Of Oz at the Emeraled City and I always got back fine... "there's no place like reality, there's no place like reality, there's no place like reality" yep good times.

  13. #138
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    NOOOOOO!!!!!! How many catgirls died because of proEuphy? and they were just taken off the endanger species list too, such "INJUSTICE" cannot go UNPUNISHED!!!!!!
    In my defense I must say that Wolfgirl90 puts logic into her Code Geass discussions whenever that logic seems to favor her point of view. She objects to logic only when it is used by me to support my point of view. Therefore I suspect that probably Wolfgirl90 has killed as many catgirls as I have. Possibly other posters in other forums have done worse.


    But don't blame us. Blame whatever evil god (Cthulhu? Yog-Shoggoth?) it is that likes illogical fictional universes so much that he holds catgirls hostages to prevent logic from ever being appllied to the worlds of fiction. Identify that evil god and support the good god or gods that oppose him/her/it. That's the way to save the catgirls.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 06-11-2009 at 10:01 PM.

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    In my defense I must say that Wolfgirl90 puts logic into her Code Geass discussions whenever that logic seems to favor her point of view. She objects to logic only when it is used by me to support my point of view. Therefore I suspect that probably Wolfgirl90 has killed as many catgirls as I have. Possibly other posters in other forums have done worse.


    But don't blame us. Blame whatever evil god (Cthulhu? Yog-Shoggoth?) it is that likes illogical fictional universes so much that he holds catgirls hostages to prevent logic from ever being appllied to the worlds of fiction. Identify that evil god and support the good god or gods that oppose him/her/it. That's the way to save the catgirls.
    yeah not to be a bias jerk, but wolfgirl was using real life logic on your real life logic on, real logic of an fictional logic, in a fictional world ok.

  15. #140
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    "Every time you put logic into anime, God kills a catgirl."

    Remember this phrase? Are you suggesting that I compare the real world security of a place like the Kremlin to Pendragon, a city that exists in a universe where there are large mechs that fly around using wings made out of energy? I don't think so. I said that Pendragon was well guarded and had large amounts of security because that is stated (over and over) in the anime. An unauthorized person can't even approach the city, let alone get in. Lelouch can't Geass a sniper, or a Knight approaching him in a Knightmare, or even fight someone, so that is the basis of what I said (remember, I am assuming, like you, that Lelouch went straight to Pendragon after getting the Geass; the Black Knights have not formed yet).
    Well, I always put logic into every fictional world I create. You claim that no unauthorized person can approach Pendragon, but Lelouch should be able to get all kinds of authorization with his geass. Perhaps catching the first plane to Pendragon might not be a good idea, but infiltrating Pendragon should be Lelouch's first plan, at least until he convinces himself that the security is too tight for him. He could read everything he could find about Pendragon security, use his geass to get people who might know about Pendragon security to tell him what they know, and try taking over the leaders in the government center at the Tokyo Settlement. If the security there is too tight he could expect it would probably be too tight at Pendragon.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Noooo...read what I said. I mentioned the hatred thing because a nation could be attacked for any reason. Even a peace loving, non-combatant nation could be invaded. My point was, if fighting against injustice is NEVER justified, what should a pacisifistic nation do if it was attacked? What should other nations do if another country was attacked for no reason?
    What I wrote was that fighting back against real or perceived injustice was never either an ethical or an emotional imperative. perhaps my words were a little too fancy for you. What I said was that fighting back against injustice is never the only good thing to do. Sometimes not fighting back might be almost as good, just as good, er even better than fighting back. And that people's emotions do not always force them to fight back. Sometimes they restrain themselves for various emotional or logical reasons. I never wrote that fighting back against against injustice was never justified. There is a difference between never mandatory and never justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    And the Zero Requiem DID work. The thing is, it can only do so much when it comes to world peace (that has to be done by the people themselves). Like I said, war can start from anything.
    So you say that the Zero Requiem worked for days, or weeks, or months, or years. But world peace has to come from the people. In that case I expect that wars will start up again fairly soon after the last episode. Slowly at first, but soon they will be back to the normal historical rate in the Code Geass alternate universe. And keep it up at that rate for another ten thousand or ten million years perhaps.



    [quote=wolfgirl90;2276570]
    [quote=proEuphie;2275314] And I wouldn't be a hypocrite for suggesting that hundreds of Nazi SS death camp guards or Mongol warriors (who had each massacred hundreds of civilians) be sacrificed to save the life of one good, deserving person. Nor would I be a hypocrite for suggesting that hundreds of Britannian soldiers who had taken part in a massacre be sacrificed to save the life of one good person like Euphemia.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    I called you a hypocrite bacause, while you say that fighting against real or imaginary injustice is never justified, you said that hundreds, if not thousands of Britanian soldiers should die, whether it was to either save Euphemia or just die for the crimes they committed. You can't have a pacifistic attitude about war and fighting for social injustice but then turn around and advocate the mass killing of a bunch of people because THEY committed a social injustice. That, my friend, is being a hypocrite.
    I didn't say that fighting against real or imaginary injustice was never justified, I wrote that it was never mandatory. I didn't advocate the mass killing of people because they committed social injustice. I advocated the mass killing of people because they committed mass murder and took part in a massacre. That is a lot worse than committing social injustice, although I suppose that taking part in a massacre could be considered an extreme form of social injustice by some definitions.

    Anyway, those hundreds of Britannian soliders would never be sacrificed by Lelouch in an attempt to cure Euphemia because 1) Lelouch is too evil to capture even one person who would make a valuable hostage, let alone hundreds of Britannian soldiers, so those soldiers were all killed in the battle or escaped 2) Lelouch knows that such a plan wouldn't work for reasons you explained 3) we don't even know if there were hundreds of Britannian soldiers there since all Code Geass statistics are very vague.

    But if someone you loved suffered from a deadly disease which the doctors didn't know how to cure since they needed to perform unethical human experiments on many subjects, and a helpful genie brought you hundreds of SS death camp guards, or Mongol warriors who had each massacred hundreds of men and women and children in one of Genghis Khan's bloodiest campaigns, would you refuse to let the doctors experiment on them? Or would you consider their lives worth less than that of one good person?

    This whole matter was brought up because you insisted that since Euphemia could not be cured of her compulsion to kill Japanese she had to be killed, since there was no way to guarantee that she would not escape and possibly kill a few more Japanese. But I said that keeping Euphemia a prisoner with very little chance of escaping would be no big deal for an organization fighting to take over an entire country. Lelouch planned to capture Tokyo that very night. And then somebody would sooner or later get around to releasing all the political prisoners from Britannian prisons, and then Lelouch would have a lot of empty cells available for Euphemia. And in the meanwhile carrying Euphemia around in the hand of his nightmare like King Kong with Ann Darrow would be a very good weapon against any Britannians he happened to meet. And when Lelouch got into the G1 for his march on Tokyo Euphemia could be sedated, tied up, and locked inside some locker or closet inside a locked chamber of the G1 and she wouldn't be any trouble until it was time to transfer her to a new cell.

    And I also pointed out that If Euphemia was kept a prisoner there would be three ways of curing her before the geass canceler became available in a year:
    1) Getting VV to undo the geass command, a simple matter of negotiation for Lelouch, or Cornelia, or whoever had custody of Euphemia. Most immortals should be terrified of poverty and willing to do anything easy and within their ethics for money they can invest for hundreds of years in one of their many secret retirement accounts.
    2) Going through a bunch of Britannian soldiers until one of them got a geass power to undo Lelouch's commands. You convinced me it would not work.
    3) She was apparently struggling against the geass command on a subconscious level while under its control, and while she was talking to Lelouch she seemed to be freeing herself from the geass command's control. Thus if Euphemia was kept a prisoner she would probably cure herself within minutes, hours, or days.
    I believe that # 1 and # 3 are still very plausible ways for Euphemia to become entirely or almost entirely (almost entirely could make for occasional suspenseful moments) cured of her geass and thus a much lesser threat of ever killing any Japanese people in the future.

    But the hundreds of Britannian prisoners you think it would have been evil for Lelouch to kill in an attempt to cure Euphemia would have collectively been at least as dangerous a potential treat as Euphemia, since if they rejoined the Britannian army sometime in the future they might receive and obey other massacre orders they might receive.

    This is where I quit working on post # 132 about midnight Monday, June 8. As you see, I have copied everything into this new post which is better organized because I finally managed to get the quote boxes right (I hope)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Are you God, proEuphie? How do you know how much a human life, a plant's life, an animal's life, is worth? Sorry, but you are a hypocrite so long as you have the philosophy of "We shouldn't kill people...except those that kill other people", "Fighting against people is wrong...unless they do something terrible to us."
    NO, I am not God, not yet. I'm working on that promotion. I don't have to be God or even a god to know that most people value the life of a human being much more than that of an animal, or a plant, or a bacteria. The total number of bacteria, plants and animals which have been killed to keep any one of us alive is doubtless in the millions or billions.

    I never said that I have a philosophy of never killing people unless they kill other people. I have said that I greatly admire Euphemia's reluctance to kill and think that it makes her much better than any other character in Code Geass. You could assume that I share her attitude or you could assume that I admire it because it is something I don't share with her, or you could assume that I am somewhere between those extremes.

    If someone is a hypocrite for saying we shouldn't kill people unless they kill other people I suppose that all legal jurisdictions which have the death penalty, but only for murder, are hypocritical.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Did you forget that Nunnally resisted Lelouch's Geass too? I have said that over and over. Euphemia is not that special for resisting Lelouch's Geass since Nunnally did the exact same thing (and lasted quite a long time). But once again, I am going to drop it since there is an entire thread where we can talk about this.
    If you mean my thread "How Long do Geass Commands Last?" I just looked at it and it has been closed. Please suggest an alternate thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Again, proEuphie, while it is your opinion, since you are not some godlike being, I will assume that you really have no idea how much the life of a human being is worth.

    Since I am in the military, I know all to well about the value of a human life. When it comes to rats, its either their lives and diseases or my life and my health. Its not because one is worth more than the other. Since you have most likely have never been on a battlefield, it is easy for you to say that that you are willing to dispose the lives of hundreds upon thousands of lives to save one good person or rather, one person you perceive as good (remember, we are talking about a cartoon character here), while you are sitting behind a computer. Its easy when you are at home and you can't see those people in question. However, the situation is TOTALLY different once you are on the battlefield.

    Its because if this that I can sympathize with BOTH Lelouch and Suzaku and what they did. Both of them did things that helped people and both of them did things that harmed people. Its easy to think that "good" and "evil" are separate things when you think that you could never do anything evil yourself. However, life does not work that way.


    I find it very interesting that you say that it is easy for me to condemn hundreds of Britannian soldiers to death since I do not see them but once I was on the battlefield and can see the people in question the situation would be TOTALY different. It sounds like you are advocating a merciful action toward those Britannian soldiers.

    So what would you say about someone who was on the battlefield and who didn't change his hard line stance when he saw the people in question but went ahead and killed them anyway? Would you say that he was slightly different from you or would you say that his actions were really, really, different from any actions you or anyone you know and admire would do? And thus as close to evil as you would classify any actions?

    What if, a day or two after the fighting was over, when everything was calm, the people of a conquered city assembled outside the walls and were divided into groups of a dozen or two, each group assigned to a soldier, and at a signal every soldier attacked and massacred all the men. women, and children in his group? Wouldn't you say that the leader who gave the massacre command and the soldiers who who saw the terrified faces of their victims and hacked them into pieces anyway were not behaving like normal people? Normal people who might find reasons to justify mass slaughter when peacefully at home, but would abandon all such plans on the battle field, when they actually saw the proposed victims. And wouldn't you say that the commander who gave the order and the soldiers who obeyed it were different from what we hope that normal people are like, and in an inferior way?

    So what would you think about someone who, on the battlefield, but during a lull in the fighting, in which he has seconds and maybe minutes to think about what he is doing, renders someone totally helpless and powerless to kill by destroying their war vehicle. And then, despite his claim to be protecting the people that person has been attacking, he not only does not instantly capture her, but he lets her pick up and keep a machine gun and thus become a potential danger again.

    Then he leaves the safety of his armored vehicle and stalks toward her, confident she recognizes his disguise and will not harm him. He passes close to her, close enough to touch, and could easily try subduing her or shooting her in an arm or a leg or talking her into becoming his guest and thus his prisoner. He walks past and away from her, confident that she won't shoot him in the back. And naturally she turns to look after him. And thus he condemns to death all of her intended targets who may be in view once she turns around. But she doesn't not shoot at anyone, so either there are no members of the target group in sight or she has overcome her insane compulsion to kill them and is no longer dangerous.

    He sees that she is no longer totally controlled by the geass command but is mostly normal, and that she is very confused and mixed up due to the the transition, and helpless to defend herself against an attack she can not imagine he would have any reason to make. He remembers the good times of their childhood together, and her many kind deeds. He sees her not as a hypothetical being but as someone he has known all his life. And he turns around and shoots her without warning anyway.

    And the next year he orders and carries out, of his own free will, a massacre similar to the one she was forced by a geass command to order. He sees thousands of people and has them killed anyway.

    Isn't that behaving very differently from the way that you believe that you would behave on the battlefield and the way you believe that most soldiers would behave on the battlefield, when they see real people instead of hypothetical people? Isn't that behaving very differently, and in a way which you might consider to be inferior and wrong?

    You say you can sympathize with both Lelouch and Suzaku. Isn't it time you started sympathizing with people who are kinder and more humane? People like Euphemia, or Shirley Fenette, or the hypothetical Japanese children who were possibly killed in the Shinjaku, Saitema, or Fuji Massacres? Or perhaps Britannians who might have been massacred by hypothetical mobs of angry Japanese during the first Decisive Battle of Tokyo? Or maybe the millions killed by the use of F.R.E.I.J.A. at Tokyo or Pendragon? Which might not have happened if Lelouch hadn't murdered Euphemia.

    Or maybe you could sympathize with the children who were being turned into geass warriors at the Geass Directorate, I hear, and who might have hoped that someone would come to rescue them from their sad life. Someone did come,and rescued them from their sad lives by killing them, a cure worse than the disease. In real life of course, children and teenagers are kidnapped and turned into warriors in many third world countries, and you could potentially encounter children like those in the Geass Directorate, though without geass powers. So you should sympathize with the Geass Directorate children most of all.

    You claim that you know the value of human life. Then perhaps you should stop defending (fictional) fellow members of the military profession who have crossed the line and committed a terrible (fictional) massacre, and start showing more sympathy for various (fictional) massacre victims. (Except by stating that Euphemia had to die for the Fuji massacre, even though she was forced against her will into it, which seems to be the only way you know to sympathize with massacre victims in the world of Code Geass).
    Last edited by proEuphie; 06-13-2009 at 12:12 AM.

  16. #141
    Senior Member +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+'s Avatar
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    Pro Euphie Stop. I am sorry I ever started this thread. In fact, since i STARTED this thread I have grown to FORGIVE suzaku int he first place and you are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off topic. It was a simple side choosing question, not an incentive fro you to waste countless hours ranting on a subject, mm'kay? Its getting irritating and you're scaring people off the thread. I have put up with this long enough. Do you not have anything better to do than analyze a FICTIONAL WORLD down to the last spot of ink used to create it?
    Honestly.


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  17. #142
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    Pro Euphie Stop. I am sorry I ever started this thread. In fact, since i STARTED this thread I have grown to FORGIVE suzaku int he first place and you are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off topic. It was a simple side choosing question, not an incentive fro you to waste countless hours ranting on a subject, mm'kay? Its getting irritating and you're scaring people off the thread. I have put up with this long enough. Do you not have anything better to do than analyze a FICTIONAL WORLD down to the last spot of ink used to create it?
    Honestly.
    And just when I was thinking of making a post admitting that Lelouch was much superior to Suzaku when it came to getting revenge on his enemies. After all, in the end, Suzaku became Lelouch's follower and only killed Lelouch when it was part of Lelouch's plan to die. Lelouch slaughtered the guilty and the innocent by the thousands and the millions in his quest for vengeance, while that whimp Suzaku tamely waited until he had his enemy's permission and even orders before killing him.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 08-06-2009 at 12:18 AM.

  18. #143
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    I'm with Lelouch. Although he may at some times seem insane, or not completely with the grand scheme, the whole time he guessed everything from the start and knew the fundamental ending would be his death. So he did everything despite knowing the end result. He's awesome. ^_^

    .:[☆Akira Kogami☆ - Lucky Channel's Super Cute Idol]:.

  19. #144
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    Pro Euphie Stop. I am sorry I ever started this thread. In fact, since i STARTED this thread I have grown to FORGIVE suzaku int he first place and you are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off topic. It was a simple side choosing question, not an incentive fro you to waste countless hours ranting on a subject, mm'kay? Its getting irritating and you're scaring people off the thread. I have put up with this long enough. Do you not have anything better to do than analyze a FICTIONAL WORLD down to the last spot of ink used to create it?
    Honestly.
    We of animeforum happily accept your apology... lol nah just kidding, I think most of us should thank you for making this thread heheheh, so thanks it was and is a fun thread... oh that reminds me who did I pick?

  20. #145
    Junior Member Oloty has a brilliant future Oloty has a brilliant future Oloty has a brilliant future Oloty has a brilliant future Oloty has a brilliant future Oloty has a brilliant future Oloty has a brilliant future Oloty has a brilliant future Oloty has a brilliant future Oloty has a brilliant future Oloty has a brilliant future Oloty's Avatar
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    I agree with Namiko

  21. #146
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    I would choose The Black Knights.
    Lulu may be hellbent on getting rid of Britannia in any way possible, but I still love how the helped the 11's even if it WAS fer himself.

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  22. #147
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akira Kogami View Post
    I'm with Lelouch. Although he may at some times seem insane, or not completely with the grand scheme, the whole time he guessed everything from the start and knew the fundamental ending would be his death. So he did everything despite knowing the end result. He's awesome. ^_^
    So he did evil and senseless things like murdering Euphemia for no good or practical reason and ordering the geass directorate massacre, all the time knowing that it would end in his death?

    If so, it proves that "greater hate has no man than he who gives up his life to kill those who he should protect." You have to be really evil to kill innocent people despite knowing that it will end up in your death.

    So Lelouch came up with an implausible plan to give up his life to "save the world" at the cost of his own life and then felt that since he was going to "save the world", at least in his own opinion, and die anyway, he could kill as many people he wanted to along the way without worrying about if they were guilty or innocent or if he could achieve his goals with less killing.

    Then if Lelouch had a less noble and more selfish plan to save the world and survive to enjoy it he might have caused a lot less unnecessary death and destruction in the process and the world might have been a better place at the end than it was.
    Last edited by proEuphie; 09-02-2009 at 09:16 PM.

  23. #148
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    I was a Suzaku fangirl in R1, but liked Lelouch better in R2. I love both of them though! They're my favorite characters. But.... I like Lulu only a bit better than Suzaku. Maybe about 0.5%
    Aw, the wonderful sound of AF.

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  24. #149
    EXTROVERTED HERO Kamen Rider V3 Blue has a brilliant future Kamen Rider V3 Blue has a brilliant future Kamen Rider V3 Blue has a brilliant future Kamen Rider V3 Blue has a brilliant future Kamen Rider V3 Blue has a brilliant future Kamen Rider V3 Blue has a brilliant future Kamen Rider V3 Blue has a brilliant future Kamen Rider V3 Blue has a brilliant future Kamen Rider V3 Blue has a brilliant future Kamen Rider V3 Blue has a brilliant future Kamen Rider V3 Blue has a brilliant future Kamen Rider V3 Blue's Avatar
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    Feh I like Suzaku better(no offense to Lulu fans but he seemed like such a prick)

  25. #150
    Junior Member blackarrows is on a distinguished road blackarrows's Avatar
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    I go with lelouch all the way. yea he may have done some bad things but still he was trying to change the world for the better.

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