Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight

[proEuphie]

I hate Lelouch for murdering Euphemia when it would have been so easy for him to capture her alive.
I don't hate Lelouch for ordreing the geass directorate massacre. And I don't hate Suzaku for using F.R.E.I.J.A. to kill millions. Why? Because I gave up on Code Geass after Lelouch murdered Euphemia. Thus I never watched the second season and so never saw Lelouch and Suzaku do those terrible things, I only read about them.
Thus I say I would have to say I prefer Suzaku to Lelouch since I have not seen Suzaku do something so terrible that it makes me hate him.

[Rolo Vi Britannia]

I hate Lelouch for murdering Euphemia when it would have been so easy for him to capture her alive.
I don't hate Lelouch for ordreing the geass directorate massacre. And I don't hate Suzaku for using F.R.E.I.J.A. to kill millions. Why? Because I gave up on Code Geass after Lelouch murdered Euphemia. Thus I never watched the second season and so never saw Lelouch and Suzaku do those terrible things, I only read about them.
Thus I say I would have to say I prefer Suzaku to Lelouch since I have not seen Suzaku do something so terrible that it makes me hate him.

But you see, you can't hate someone for one thing they do. For instance, I wouldn't think you were annoying if you only did this once, but you do it constantly.
Lelouch couldn't have saved her.
Lelouch wanted to get rid of VV because he blamed him for Shirley's death. Not only that, he also hated Geass for some reason.
You shouldn't hate Suzaku, he only used it because of the Geass command.

I've seen you talk about the Zero Requiem and say that Lelouch was evil because of it. ow can you say that if you've never read about it? What gives you the right to say that?

[proEuphie]

But you see, you can't hate someone for one thing they do. For instance, I wouldn't think you were annoying if you only did this once, but you do it constantly.
Lelouch couldn't have saved her.
Lelouch wanted to get rid of VV because he blamed him for Shirley's death. Not only that, he also hated Geass for some reason.
You shouldn't hate Suzaku, he only used it because of the Geass command.

I've seen you talk about the Zero Requiem and say that Lelouch was evil because of it. ow can you say that if you've never read about it? What gives you the right to say that?

You must hate and despise everyone who dies evil, even if it is only one evil thing.
Why do you say that Lelouch couldn't have saved Euphemia, when it would have been so easy to capture her alive?

[Rolo Vi Britannia]

You must hate and despise everyone who dies evil, even if it is only one evil thing.
Whey do you csay that Lelouch couldn't have saved Euphemia, when it would have been so easy to captured her alive?

Honey, I only hate people for what they've done to me. People who deserve to die are those who commit evil for no reason.

Would her living be a good thing for Lelouch? No.
Would her living be a good thing for Euphy? No
Would her living be a good thing for the plot? No.

[proEuphie]

Honey, I only hate people for what they've done to me. People who deserve to die are those who commit evil for no reason.

Would her living be a good thing for Lelouch? No.

Yes it would be. Haven't you seen any of my posts where I point that that Lelouch needed a live Euphemia?

from post # 24, Mecha Ethics: Tens or hundreds or thousands of Britannian soldiers obeyed Euphemia's orders to kill Japanese at the Fuji stadium. Unless you have proof that Lelouch knew that Euphemia was the last Britannian left at Fuji then he should have captured her and used her as a hostage to stop the massacre instead of killing her.

And don't forget that Euphemia broadcast an order to kill Japanese at the beginning of episode 23. If any Britannian military units not at the Fuji Stadium were close enough to receive that message then there would have been other massacres taking place in other locations beside the Fuji stadium and the surrounding area that the surviving Japanese fled to. Could the Black Knights have learned about all those other massacres and stopped them before Lelouch found Euphemia? Probably not. So Lelouch should have captured Euphemia and broadcast a message threatening to kill her unless all the Britannians who heard it stopped killing at once. Not doing so makes Lelouch guilty of murdering all the Japanese who might have been killed after he could have used Euphemia as a hostage to stop the massacre or massacres.

from post # 19, Mecha ethics: And remember Euphemia broadcasting an order to kill Japanese at the beginning of episode 23. If that order was received by any Britannian soldiers who were not at the stadium, and obeyed, there would have been other massacres taking place besides the Fuji Stadium Massacre. It seems highly unlikely that the Black Knights had already heard about and stopped those other massacres by the time that Lelouch found Euphemia. Thus Euphemia should still have been valuable as a hostage to stop those other massacres even if she was the last Britannian still fighting at Fuji.

And if Lelouch and the Black Knights were defeated having Euphemia as a prisoner to trade could save the lives of many Japanese, many Black Knights, and even Lelouch himself. Since nobody knew all Lelouch's plans and goals with the possible exception of CC who cold not be counted on to carry on after Lelouch's death, Lelouch's death would have been the total end to all his plans. Thus if he had any desire to protect his followers and if he wanted to have even the slightest chance of surviving defeat to try again, Lelouch had to keep Euphemia alive to trade for their lives in the case of a defeat, which only an arrogant jerk would not consider likely enough to plan for.

And Lelouch should have known that if Euphemia survived, even if he was defeated and captured before being able to use her to bargain for mercy, Euphemia would use what little influence she had to plead for Lelouch's life, and thus reduce his chances of being executed from possibly about 99 percent to possibly about 95 percent.

And of course if the Black Rebellion was defeated the fate of thousands and millions of Japanese would largely be in the hands of Cornelia. If Euphemia was alive she would try to restrain Cornelia's violent tendencies, while if Euphemia was killed Cornelia's anger could result in many thousands or millions of extra Japanese deaths. And even after Lelouch gave Euphemia the command to kill the Japanese Cornelia's greater power meant that a dead Euphemia and an enraged Cornelia would be more dangerous to the Japanese than a live but discredited and probably considered insane Euphemia trying to use her lesser authority and influence to kill as many Japanese as possible.

from post # 179, Did Euphemia Escape from her Geass Before Lelouch Shot her?: And Lelouch might have been able to use Euphemia to force some military or political concession out of Cornelia.

For example, he might force her to agree to march her army to meet his at a specified time and place. Lelouch could tell his followers that if a few of them were stationed at points A, B, And C on the map they could trap Cornelia's army. And Cornelia would tell her men that Zero was planning to put men at points A, B, And C to trap them but she would foil him by sending some of her men to points D and E to trap the rebels. And Zero would privately tell his commanders that Cornelia would no doubt plan to trap them by sending men to points D and E but they could trap them and the rest of Cornelia's army with units at points F and G!

from post # 179 Did Euphemia Escape From Her Geass Before Lelouch Shot Her?: And later Lelouch privately gloated to CC that the Emperor would have to meet Zero once the rebels proclaimed an independent Japan in the Government Center in the Tokyo Settlement. Which is like saying king George III would have had to come to the United States as soon as he heard about the Declaration of independence. So Lelouch privately told his only confidant that he had no plan prepared to defend against the weeks and months and years of attacks from Brittannia which would have occurred instead of the visit from Emperor Charles.

Lelouch desperately needed to keep as many Britannians as possible alive, especially Cornelia and above all Euphemia, to trick the Emperor into thinking it was safe to come to Japan. Lelouch could not expect that anyone who knew Euphemia even slightly, like her father did, would believe the massacre story. Instead they would believe that the Japanese had made up the story and faked the videos to justify the murder of an innocent girl. It would have been incredibly suicidal for the Emperor to go to Japan if Euphemia was alive, since he was hated much more than she was, and thousands of times less likely for him to go there if she was dead.

So Lelouch killed his plan by killing Euphemia. Lelouch must have been irrational with anger ever since the announcement of the SAZ plan; that seems like the only explanation for killing Euphemia.

Would her living be a good thing for Euphy? No

Yes it would have been good for her. Nobody can ever benefit from death. The only good is to be alive, to think and feel and sense your surroundings, to do things and experience events. Death is absolute evil.

And even if I agreed that in some cases an adult who is suffering terrible physical pain and is begging for death might possibly be correct and it might be right for someone to kill him, what has that got to do with Euphemia?

Euphemia did not seem to be experiencing intense pleasure or pain while controlled by the geass command nor while she talked to Lelouch right before he shot her, when I think she broke free of the geass command. And when he shot her she asked him why instead of thanking him.

If Lelouch suspected that possibly Euphemia might be better off dead, he should have captured her and had her examined by psychiatrists for months or years and based his decision wether to kill her on their reports. Except for a few hours he had not seen Euphie for seven years, almost half her life, and did not know her very well.

So I say Lelouch killed Euphie, an obviously evil deed, for no reason and so deserved to die by your definition in post # 154 above.

Would her living be a good thing for the plot? No.

Yes. Euphemia's survival would be absolutely necessary for the good of the plot. Without Euphemia the story became evil people fighting other evil people and I found no reason to watch it or care about what would happen next.

[Rolo Vi Britannia]

Yes it would be. Haven't you seen any of my posts where I point that that Lelouch needed a live Euphemia?



Yes it would have been good for her. Nobody can ever benefit from death. The only good is to be alive, to think and feel and sense your surroundings, to do things and experience events. Death is absolute evil.

And even if I agreed that in some cases an adult who is suffering terrible physical pain and is begging for death might possibly be correct and it might be right for someone to kill him, what has that got to do with Euphemia?

Euphemia did not seem to be experiencing intense pleasure or pain while controlled by the geass command nor while she talked to Lelouch right before he shot her, when I think she broke free of the geass command. And when he shot her she asked him why instead of thanking him.

If Lelouch suspected that possibly Euphemia might be better off dead, he should have captured her and had her examined by psychiatrists for months or years and based his decision wether to kill her on their reports. Except for a few hours he had not seen Euphie for seven years, almost half her life, and did not know her very well.

So I say Lelouch killed Euphie, an obviously evil deed, for no reason and so deserved to die by your definition.

Seriously. You didn't agree about the most important thing. The plot. He killed Euphemia because he thought he had to to stop her. Please go rewatch episode 22 and 23. Bandai uploaded them on youtube.

[Disciple-of-Jashin]

Lelouch, because he reminded me a lot of Light from Death Note and their ideals are quite similar.

^This. Before I watched Code Geass, Light was my favorite character but now I would have to say Lelouch takes it.

[Wicked Eden]

Suzaku = The Shinji of CG

Ledouche = A cross-breed between an emo and a man who thinks he is the proverbial "Hand of God".

Shinji...? No. At least Suzaku had a REASON to be sad.

[Rolo Vi Britannia]

Shinji...? No. At least Suzaku had a REASON to be sad.

Lol. It sounded like they hated both of them.

[proEuphie]

Seriously. You didn't agree about the most important thing. The plot. He killed Euphemia because he thought he had to to stop her. Please go rewatch episode 22 and 23. Bandai uploaded them on youtube.

Lelouch thought he had to stop Euphemia? Yes, I also think that she should have been stopped.

But what does the need to stop her have to do with the evilness of killing her? She could have been stopped just as easy by capturing her alive. Capturing her alive would have been much less violent and evil than killing her. Thus the only way for Lelouch to resolve the situation without committing or permitting murder was to capture Euphemia alive as soon as possible, thus ending her personal participation in the massacre, and trying to use her as a hostage to stop the rest of the Britannians from continuing the massacre.

[Rolo Vi Britannia]

Lelouch thought he had to stop Euphemia? Yes, I also think that she should have been stopped.

But what does the need to stop her have to do with the evilness of killing her? She could have been stopped just as easy by capturing her alive. Capturing her alive would have been much less violent and evil than killing her. Thus the only way for Lleouch to resolve the situation without committing or permitting murder was to cpature Euphemia alive as soon as possible, thus ending her pesonal participation in the massacre, and trying to use her as a hostage to stop the rest of the Britannians from continuing the massacre.

But that's you're opinion. If I would have made Code Geass, I would have done the same thing.
I don't think your plan would have worked to stop everything. No one would have cared because only Cornelia cared about Euphy. They had gone to crazy at that point they probably wouldn't have listened to her anyway. All that would have lead to was Suzaku and Cornelia attacking Lelouch head on, and by your logic, they'd kill him. Lelouch wouldn't have been able to kill Euphy under those circumstances without being evil, thus, in your mind, there was no way to get past the outcome.

[proEuphie]

But that's you're opinion. If I would have made Code Geass, I would have done the same thing.
I don't think your plan would have worked to stop everything. No one would have cared because only Cornelia cared about Euphy. They had gone to crazy at that point they probably wouldn't have listened to her anyway. All that would have lead to was Suzaku and Cornelia attacking Lelouch head on, and by your logic, they'd kill him. Lelouch wouldn't have been able to kill Euphy under those circumstances without being evil, thus, in your mind, there was no way to get past the outcome.

Please express yourself more clearly. I can't prove that your ideas are totally illogical until you express them clearly enough for me to figure out what they are. Though of course the fact that you can't express them clearly is a sign that they are probably illogical.

But that's you're opinion. If I would have made Code Geass, I would have done the same thing.

By "done the same thing" do you mean you would have killed Euphemia if you were in the same situation as Lelouch? Saying that would be an illogical follow up to "If I would have made Code Geass". Or do you mean that if you made Code Geass you would have had Lelouch kill Euphemia just as he did in Episode 23?

I don't think your plan would have worked to stop everything.

I wasn't aware that I outlined a plan to stop everything. I merely pointed out that if Lelouch captured Euphemia he could have tried to use her as hostage to force the Britannians to stop the Fuji Massacre and had a chance to save tens or hundreds or thousands of Japanese who might have been killed by the Britannians at Fuji after he could have captured Euphemia.

And I pointed out that at the beginning of Episode 23 Euphemia made a broadcast ordering all Britannian soldiers (and also civilians?) who heard it to slaughter all the Japanese they could. Thus there was a fair probability that there were other massacres going on at the same time as the Fuji Massacre . If so the fastest way (if it worked) to stop all of them was to capture Euphemia and try to use her as a hostage to stop all the massacres at once. In my opinion not capturing Euphemia to use as a hostage to stop the massacre(s) made Lelouch guilty of murdering all the Japanese who might have been slaughtered after he could have tried to use Euphemia as a hostage.

And I also pointed out that if a leader who values the lives of his followers the least little bit has a chance at the beginning of hostilities, when the outcome is still undecided, to either kill or capture the girlfriend of the enemy's greatest warrior and the beloved sister of the enemy commander, he will certainly choose to capture her instead of killing her.

And I pointed out other practical disadvantages to killing Euphemia.

But that is not the same thing as having a specific plan based on the best possible way for Lelouch to use Euphemia as a hostage.

I don't think your plan would have worked to stop everything. No one would have cared because only Cornelia cared about Euphy. They had gone to crazy at that point they probably wouldn't have listened to her anyway.

How can you say that only Cornelia cared abut Euphemia? Why don't you rewatch episode 5, "The Princess and the Witch" and the scene where Euphemia reveals her identity and commands everyone to stop fighting. That certainly gives the impression that all Britannians respect Euphemia as a person and/or respect Euphemia's authority.

And why don't you rewatch "Battle at Narita" which indicates that Britannian military officers respect Euphemia as a person, and/or respect her authority, enough to obey her orders even after telling her what they think is wrong with those orders.

And why don't you rewatch episode 21 when Euphemia is recognized at the school festival and the crowd starts shouting "Euphemia!" and rushing to get close to her. Apparently Britannians adore Euphemia like a celebrity. And since the crowd included a lot of Japanese perhaps the Japanese also adore her.

And what to you mean that "they" (the Britannian soldiers at Fuji I guess) had gone too crazy to listen to "her" (Euphemia? Or Cornelia?)? You seem to assume that the Britannians must have been in some extreme mental condition, like sharks in a feeding frenzy, to take part in a massacre. But most people who take part in massacres seem to be in rather normal mental condition at the time.

And things may have been really frantic and hectic and exciting in the stadium slaughter. There were tens, or hundreds, or thousands, of Britannian soldiers packed in the same stadium as hundreds, or thousands, or tens of thousands, of Japanese who they had just been ordered to kill. Some of the Britannian soliders must have been very excited in such a situation.

But by the time that Lelouch found Euphemia and could have tried to use her as a hostage things were much different. The surviving Japanese were scattered in small groups headed away from the stadium and the Britannians soldiers were scattered in small groups looking for Japanese and occasionally finding and killing some. Most of the soldiers must have calmed down by now. And considering Cornelia's fearsome reputation it is hard to imagine any Britannian soldier despising Euphemia enough and being excited enough to defy Cornelia's orders to stop the massacre in order to save her beloved sister Euphemia.

[proEuphie]

Seriously. You didn't agree about the most important thing. The plot. He killed Euphemia because he thought he had to to stop her. Please go rewatch episode 22 and 23. Bandai uploaded them on youtube.

Whey don't you rewatch episodes 22 and 23 and notice the times when Lelouch could have stopped Euphemia by capturing her alive but did not, because for some inexplicable reason he preferred to kill her.

I say that it is always murder to kill someone who can be captured alive as easily as Euphemia could have been captured alive.

I say that any real or fictional person who has a chance to capture another real or fictional person alive as easily as Lelouch could have captured Euphemia alive but chooses to to kill that instead is guilty of murder. Even if his victim is as evil as Hitler, Genghis Khan, Stalin, Tamerlane, or Chairman Mao.

Any fictional character who is depicted killing a person who could have been captured alive as easily as Euphemia could have been captured alive is depicted as being an evil murderer.

[Rolo Vi Britannia]

Please express yourself more clearly. I can't prove that your ideas are totally illogical until you express them clearly enough for me to figure out what they are. Though of course the fact that you can't express them clearly is a sign that they are probably illogical.

What I meant was, if Lelouch captured Euphy, Cornelia and Suzaku wouldn't have bowed to him, they would have rushed at him. Lelouch, if by your theory couldn't bring himself to kill Euphy, would just get on his knees and beg for them to spare him.

By "done the same thing" do you mean you would have killed Euphemia if you were in the same situation as Lelouch? Saying that would be an illogical follow up to "If I would have made Code Geass". Or do you mean that if you made Code Geass you would have had Lelouch kill Euphemia just as he did in Episode 23?

I meant the ladder because I find her death perfect for a show of this genre.

I wasn't aware that I outlined a plan to stop everything. I merely pointed out that if Lelouch captured Euphemia he could have tried to use her as hostage to force the Britannians to stop the Fuji Massacre and had a chance to save tens or hundreds or thousands of Japanese who might have been killed by the Britannians at Fuji after he could have captured Euphemia.

And I pointed out that at the beginning of Episode 23 Euphemia made a broadcast ordering all Britannian soldiers (and also civilians?) who heard it to slaughter all the Japanese they could. Thus there was a fair probability that there were other massacres going on at the same time as the Fuji Massacre . If so the fastest way (if it worked) to stop all of them was to capture Euphemia and try to use her as a hostage to stop all the massacres at once. In my opinion not capturing Euphemia to use as a hostage to stop the massacre(s) made Lelouch guilty of murdering all the Japanese who might have been slaughtered after he could have tried to use Euphemia as a hostage.

And I also pointed out that if a leader who values the lives of his followers the least little bit has a chance at the beginning of hostilities, when the outcome is still undecided, to either kill or capture the girlfriend of the enemy's greatest warrior and the beloved sister of the enemy commander, he will certainly choose to capture her instead of killing her.

And I pointed out other practical disadvantages to killing Euphemia.

But that is not the same thing as having a specific plan based on the best possible way for Lelouch to use Euphemia as a hostage.

I meant the way you said it would all work out fine if she was captured. Your logic makes no sense to me.

How can you say that only Cornelia cared abut Euphemia? Why don't you rewatch episode 5, "The Princess and the Witch" and the scene where Euphemia reveals her identity and commands everyone to stop fighting. That certainly gives the impression that all Britannians respect Euphemia as a person and/or respect Euphemia's authority.

Because they'd be in contempt of royalty if they didn't listen.

And why don't you rewatch "Battle at Narita" which indicates that Britannian military officers respect Euphemia as a person, and/or respect her authority, enough to obey her orders even after telling her what they think is wrong with those orders.

Because they'd be in contempt of royalty.

And why don't you rewatch episode 21 when Euphemia is recognized at the school festival and the crowd starts shouting "Euphemia!" and rushing to get close to her. Apparently Britannians adore Euphemia like a celebrity. And since the crowd included a lot of Japanese perhaps the Japanese also adore her.

This is irrelevant. Of course the people wanted to talk to her.

And what to you mean that "they" (the Britannian soldiers at Fuji I guess) had gone too crazy to listen to "her" (Euphemia? Or Cornelia?)? You seem to assume that the Britannians must have been in some extreme mental condition, like sharks in a feeding frenzy, to take part in a massacre. But most people who take part in massacres seem to be in rather normal mental condition at the time.

A normal person would have been like, "she's lost it! Let's not follow her."

But by the time that Lelouch found Euphemia and could have tried to use her as a hostage things were much different. The surviving Japanese were scattered in small groups headed away from the stadium and the Britannians soldiers were scattered in small groups looking for Japanese and occasionally finding and killing some. Most of the soldiers must have calmed down by now. And considering Cornelia's fearsome reputation it is hard to imagine any Britannian soldier despising Euphemia enough and being excited enough to defy Cornelia's orders to stop the massacre in order to save her beloved sister Euphemia.

We're talking utter chaos. You saw on episode 2, the britannians love murder for some strange reason. They wouldn't listen.

Whey don't you rewatch episodes 22 and 23 and notice the times when Lelouch could have stopped Euphemia by capturing her alive but did not, because for some inexplicable reason he preferred to kill her.

Because he thought killing her was the only way to stop her.

I say that it is always murder to kill someone who can be captured alive as easily as Euphemia could have been captured alive.

In my opinion, that makes no sense.

I say that any real or fictional person who has a chance to capture another real or fictional person alive as easily as Lelouch could have captured Euphemia alive but chooses to to kill that instead is guilty of murder. Even if his victim is as evil as Hitler, Genghis Khan, Stalin, Tamerlane, or Chairman Mao.

In my opinion, this is ridiculous.

Any fictional character who is depicted killing a person who could have been captured alive as easily as Euphemia could have been captured alive is depicted as being an evil murderer.

That's far to serious for a TV show.

[proEuphie]

Unfinished 1215 AM Thursday 01/14/10. Please don't respond until I am finished.

What I meant was, if Lelouch captured Euphy, Cornelia and Suzaku wouldn't have bowed to him, they would have rushed at him. Lelouch, if by your theory couldn't bring himself to kill Euphy, would just get on his knees and beg for them to spare him.

Your words seem to describe Lelouch standing all alone holding a gun to Euphie's head, or else holding her in the hand of the Gawain after using up all its ammunition, and being charged by Suzaku and Cornelia simultaneously in their nightmares.

But in "Black Knight Cornelia hesitated to attack the hotel because Euphemia was in it. She hesitated for so long that Lelouch deduced that Euphemia must be in the hotel and brought his Black nights there to get involved.

And in "Island of the Gods" Lelouch thought that using Euphie as a hostage would work to get Suzaku to release his prisoner Kallen. And Suzaku did not attack Lelouch while he was using Euphie as a human shield.

So we have examples of Suzaku, the enemy's greatest warrior, and Cornelia, the enemy commander, both stopped in their tracks because of their desire not to do anything to harm Euphemia when held as a hostage.

And of course Lelouch did not need to demand anything as the price for Euphemia's life. He could have simply informed the Britannians that he had captured Euphemia, that many of the japanese wanted to torture her to death for the massacre, but he was simply holding her a prisoner because she obviously had gone insane and was not of sound mind. He could tell his followers that holding Euphemia would discourage Cornelia from threatening to massacre an entire ghetto every day until the rebels surrendered.

I meant the ladder because I find her death perfect for a show of this genre.

You mean the genre of evil shows where the audience identifies with and cares about various evil characters which nobody should ever care about?

Yes, there can be good, sound dramatic reasons for killing off important characters unexpectedly. But how can there be a good, sound, dramatic reason to have the protagonist of a series senselessly murder someone he could have captured alive just as easily and safely? Unless it is to make the audience hate him and turn him into the antagonist of the series and make one of the former antagonists the new protagonist. Or unless it is to make the series a tragedy in which the formerly noble protagonist turns evil and senselessly murders someone leading to his death and the defeat and deaths of his followers as well as their enemies in a terrible, grand, armageddon of a climax.

But neither of those two courses happened. So there was no sound, dramatic, reason for Euphemia's senseless murder. It was just a spectacular, poorly-motivated act of violence designed to erase the dramatic contrast between the two main characters and turn Suazku into a cheap imitation of Lelouch's vengeance-crazed monster.

I meant the way you said it would all work out fine if she was captured. Your logic makes no sense to me.

Because they'd be in contempt of royalty if they didn't listen.

Just as the soldiers at Fuji would be in contempt of royalty if they refused to obey orders from Euphemia to stop the massacre if Lelouch could get her to give such orders, or from Cornelia if Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage to get Cornelia to order the massacre stopped. Remember, Cornelia did not plan or order the massacre and had no desire for the massacre to continue. She would not be giving up anything she wanted or needed by ordering the soldiers to stop the massacre to save Euphie.

Because they'd be in contempt of royalty.

Just as the soldiers at Fuji would be in contempt of royalty if they refused to obey orders from Euphemia to stop the massacre if Lelouch could get her to give such orders, or from Cornelia if Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage to get Cornelia to order the massacre stopped. Remember, Cornelia did not plan or order the massacre and had no desire for the massacre to continue. She would not be giving up anything she wanted or needed by ordering the soldiers to stop the massacre to save Euphie.

This is irrelevant. Of course the people wanted to talk to her.

A normal person would have been like, "she's lost it! Let's not follow her."

Again you are very vague, but I suppose you mean that if the Britannian soldiers at Fuji were normal they would not have obeyed Euphemia's massacre orders but would have said: "she's lost it! Let's not follow her."

I suppose you think that the evil Britannians must have been so atypical, so abnormal, so unusual, that they would not sop a massacre even if ordered to do so to save a princess's life.

It is true that if the Britannian soldiers at Fuji were good and decent persons they would have said: "she's lost it! Let's not follow her." But there is not much of a positive correlation between the attitudes of good and decent people and those of normal people.

You may think that the evil Britannian soldiers who obeyed massacre orders at Shinjaku, Saitema, and Fuji were very different from normal persons such as yourself and all the people that you know, and thus they were so weird and twisted that they would not stop a massacre even to save a hostage Princess. But their is no evidence that evil people who massacre and slaughter helpless victims are unusual, or abnormal. They is no reason to think that the evil Britannians soldiers who took part in massacres were so warped and twisted and so different from normal people that they would not have stopped a massacre if ordered to do so to save a princess. The historical evidence show that evil, vile, loathsome, vicious, disgusting brutes who slaughter helpless innocent victims are perfectly normal, average, and typical persons.

We're talking utter chaos. You saw on episode 2, the britannians love murder for some strange reason. They wouldn't listen.

Because he thought killing her was the only way to stop her.

How can Lelouch be any kind of strategic and tactical genius as he is supposed to be, or even any kind of reasonably competent warrior, If he could not see how easy it would be to capture Euphemia alive and lock her up so that she could not kill any one else? How could Lelouch, looking down on Euphemia stumbling unarmed out of the wreckage of her nightmare, possibly think that killing her was the only way to stop her?

Or maybe you didn't mean that Lelouch somehow senselessly thought that killing Euphie was the only way to stop her from killing more Japanese.

Maybe you meant that Lelouch thought that somehow Euphemia might be cured of her geass command and slowly rebuild her ruined reputation as a good and kind person and someday in the future have a lot of influence again, and possibly use that influence to provide a more peaceful alternative to his plans, as she did with the SAZ, and that therefore Lelouch thought that he couldn't count on her being hated for the Fuji Massacre forever and he had to kill her to prevent even the slightest chance that she would ever again threaten an outbreak of peace that would spoil his evil schemes?


I

n my opinion, that makes no sense.

In my opinion, this is ridiculous.

That's far to serious for a TV show.

What do you mean too serious for a tv show? Do you mean that nothing a tv character does is good or evil, even if it would be very good or every evil if a real person did it?

[Rolo Vi Britannia]

Your words seem to describe Lelouch standing all alone holding a gun to Euphie's head, or else holding her in the hand of the Gawain after using up all its ammunition, and being charged by Suzaku and Cornelia simultaneously in their nightmares.

It;s the same difference. Both can be explained with Lelouch being defeated.

But in "Black Knight Cornelia hesitated to attack the hotel because Euphemia was in it. She hesitated for so long that Lelouch deduced that Euphemia must be in the hotel and brought his Black nights there to get involved.

Because if she would have attacked, there was no chance of them saving her. Either the terrorists would kill her or she'd be caught in the crossfire of the military.

And in "Island of the Gods" Lelouch thought that using Euphie as a hostage would work to get Suzaku to release his prisoner Kallen. And Suzaku did not attack Lelouch while he was using Euphie as a human shield.

Because he had no Lancelot of backup.

And of course Lelouch did not need to demand anything as the price for Euphemia's life. He could have simply informed the Britannians that he had captured Euphemia, that many of the japanese wanted to torture her to death for the massacre, but he was simply holding her a prisoner because she obviously had gone insane and was not of sound mind. He could tell his followers that holding Euphemia would discourage Cornelia from threatening to massacre an entire ghetto every day until the rebels surrendered.

This would not have worked because... In history when has this ever worked!?

You mean the genre of evil shows where the audience identifies with and cares about various evil characters which nobody should ever care about?

Again, this is your opinion.

So there was no sound, dramatic, reason for Euphemia's senseless murder. It was just a spectacular, poorly-motivated act of violence designed to erase the dramatic contrast between the two main characters and turn Suazku into a cheap imitation of Lelouch's vengeance-crazed monster.

Every good anime that I've seen does this. They always kill the most undeserving character. Like in Gundam 00

 

When Lockon dies. He was the most undeserving out of all of them, but he still dies an unfair death.

or

 

Nanako in Persona 4. She only a seven year old girl and she gets kidnapped and murdered because of the main character.

You may think that the evil Britannian soldiers who obeyed massacre orders at Shinjaku, Saitema, and Fuji were very different from normal persons such as yourself and all the people that you know, and thus they were so weird and twisted that they would not stop a massacre even to save a hostage Princess. But their is no evidence that evil people who massacre and slaughter helpless victims are unusual, or abnormal. They is no reason to think that the evil Britannians soldiers who took part in massacres were so warped and twisted and so different from normal people that they would not have stopped a massacre if ordered to do so to save a princess. The historical evidence show that evil, vile, loathsome, vicious, disgusting brutes who slaughter helpless innocent victims are perfectly normal, average, and typical persons.

Watch episode two again. Even Jeremiah disobeys his orders because killing the elevens was "the most fun he'd had on the battlefield in ages!"

How can Lelouch be any kind of strategic and tactical genius as he is supposed to be, or even any kind of reasonably competent warrior, If he could not see how easy it would be to capture Euphemia alive and lock her up so that she could not kill any one else? How could Lelouch, looking down on Euphemia stumbling unarmed out of the wreckage of her nightmare, possibly think that killing her was the only way to stop her?

Watch episode 11 of Gundam 00 and listen very closely to what Hallelujah says at the lab. It's the same difference.

Or maybe you didn't mean that Lelouch somehow senselessly thought that killing Euphie was the only way to stop her from killing more Japanese.

That's sure as hell what I thought. I don't know about you Mr. Morally Perfect.

Maybe you meant that Lelouch thought that somehow Euphemia might be cured of her geass command and slowly rebuild her ruined reputation as a good and kind person and someday in the future have a lot of influence again, and possibly use that influence to provide a more peaceful alternative to his plans, as she did with the SAZ, and that therefore Lelouch thought that he couldn't count on her being hated for the Fuji Massacre forever and he had to kill her to prevent even the slightest chance that she would ever again threaten an outbreak of peace that would spoil his evil schemes?

1. No one in the world would have thought that. At this point Lelouch completely believed that there was no cure for Geass.
2. She would never have been able to rebuild her reputation unless she lived for hunrdreds of years and everyone forgot about it.
3. Lelouch agreed with the SAZ at the end.

What do you mean too serious for a tv show? Do you mean that nothing a tv character does is good or evil, even if it would be very good or every evil if a real person did it?

Yep. Just enjoy, don't over think.

Unfinished 1215 AM Thursday 01/14/10. Please don't respond until I am finished.

Don't post unless it's finished. Write it out on notepad first or something.

Please stop posting on +Namiko+'s thread. If you want to continue this, post it elsewhere please, make your own thread. Don't post about stuff that has nothing to do with the topic anymore.

[xXPainful SmilexX]

I always liked Suzaku better. Don't get me wrong, Lelouch wasn't bad. But Suzaku's way of thinking was much better to me. Not to mention, he was a much more interesting character.

[Nyleo]

I like both characters, but I'd go with Suzaku. Why? Because he's noble and tries his best with his OWN power to do what's right. On the other hand, Lelouch's dominant strategic prowess are recognized.

[Aku no Hikari]

100% Lelouch. Is that even a question?

[The Truth in Blue]

I always liked Suzaku better. Don't get me wrong, Lelouch wasn't bad. But Suzaku's way of thinking was much better to me. Not to mention, he was a much more interesting character.

Thank you. Honestly I loved Lelouch, but I hated that the underlying moral of the story was:
"If you kill 10,000 innocents, it's okay because it's for the best."
Also, Suzaku's "Resolution" was him deciding that, so yeah. Wtf?

[xXPainful SmilexX]

Thank you. Honestly I loved Lelouch, but I hated that the underlying moral of the story was:
"If you kill 10,000 innocents, it's okay because it's for the best."
Also, Suzaku's "Resolution" was him deciding that, so yeah. Wtf?

I can admit, Code Geass does make you look stupid for not killing. But Gundam 00 does too because Saji seemed really stupid on episode 6/7(or whatever)
And Suzaku's resolve, didn't really change anything.

[neiladrian45]

- The world will focuse it's anger on me and when i die all the anger of the world will be gone even cleaning the name of the Masacre Princess" Lelouch vi Britannia 11th banished prince of britannia the demon king zero

- For me happiness is like a glass mirror everything radiants in it's beauty because we see ourselves in a state Suzaku Kururugi Knight of Zero

They both has the synanomous view and remember C.C in the hay talking to lelouch even she is happy even though lelouch died because of his death Lelouch The world removed it cursed mask and showed it's radiance without the 11th prince of Britannia without forcing any junction like the Ragnarok Junction

- I am happy for you 2 lelouch and suzaku for that i chose non




-neiladrian45
xd see you people on my next post

[Dante K]

Lelouch all the way. Suzaku was foolish, and a coward for not standing up against the occupation. (Brave in the battlefield though. But there is a difference between physical courage and social courage.)


-Lelouch risks his cozy well-to-do life, risks everything he has, to make a better world for his sister and to free his nation.

-Suzaku's "change the system from the inside" doesn't hold. Even in the first episode, a Britannian officer orders his death! Simply for refusing to shoot Lelouch, who was just in the wrong place in the wrong time. This is how little the Britannians value the Elevens, even an Eleven who is working for them as a soldier. Total cannon fodder. How do you change something like that from the inside? He could at best hope to become an officer. While he is working as an officer for the rest of his life, how many Britannians continue to suffer?

-And even aside from the suffering of untold individuals, the nation has been defeated and occupied. Even if the Elevens would be treated well, they know they belong to a defeated nation. How can they have any national self-esteem after that? People need to feel that their nation is independent and going somewhere. Otherwise they are just living for the temporary pleasures of the day. Talk about rising alcoholism and depression levels. They need to get their national pride back, by throwing off the occupation.

-Lelouch shows repeatedly that he is still on the good track. He never lets the power get to his head. He never abuses the people who rely on him. He sends them to die in war, yes, but that is what they signed up for and it is necessary for their cause. He is even prepared to enter enemy territory and bow in the dust before Suzaku's feet, begging him to take care of his sister!

-And what does Suzaku do at that point? He puts his foot on Lelouch's head and pushes him down. Humiliating in any country - but especially in Japan, with its cleanliness ethos. The foot/shoe is considered especially dirty. Suzaku's action is the ultimate humiliation of Lelouch. And even so, Lelouch submits to it for the sake of his sister.

-And let's not forget Suzaku's dragging Lelouch before the emperor, the leader of the empire that invaded Japan. Even though when Lelouch had Suzaku all alone after rescuing him, and Suzaku said he would go off and rejoin the enemy and fight for them, Lelouch had let him go. When the tables were turned, Suzaku did not return the favor.


How fitting that Suzaku had to play the role of Zero for the rest of his life - the role of the man he had sworn to fight. While Lelouch gets to live forever, drive hay carts and eat apples in the country with sexy C.C. (That's how I see it and I'm sticking to it!)

[The Butcher]

Lelouch's.

Though his way was bloody,it would have got the job done quicker,and more efficiently.

[Dante K]

You must hate and despise everyone who dies evil, even if it is only one evil thing.
Why do you say that Lelouch couldn't have saved Euphemia, when it would have been so easy to capture her alive?

Everyone does evil deeds in their lives. When they are kids if nothing else, because then they have less self-restraint and will take pleasure in causing harm to others, at least a few times. Tearing wings off ladybugs for example, to take pleasure in hurting someone - even if a small act, it is evil. So should such people be hated and despised always?

I think a person who is overall good should not be hated. A person may be wrong about what is good to do, but that only makes him stupid or misinformed or obstinate, not evil. Two opponents in the same war can both be good - maybe one of them is simply wrong, or they both are.

Heck, I am sure that in many wars there have been people looking at the other side and seeing they have more in common with the best people there, than with some of the rabble on their own side.