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Thread: Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight

  1. #76
    Senior Member +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+'s Avatar
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    ProEuphie
    U have made ur point!
    STOP DOUBLE POSTING ON MY THREAD PLZ!! U R FLOODING!!!!
    PLEAZE!?!?!?
    I asked nicely??? Please stop???^^ Double posting???? Wait ur turn please???


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  2. #77
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenga View Post
    Wow. I've read what each and everybody has posted and I must say that you all have points and feel more strongly about your choice. I know I'll probably get yelled (figuratively) at for my choice, but I side with Suzaku.
    He could have found another way for dealing with Euphemia, like modifying her Geass, tying her up, or whatever. His decision to kill Euphemia resullted in F.L.E.I.A., the worst weapon I've seen so far. F.L.E.I.A. probably resulted in thousands of death (both Britannian and Japanese).
    Also, Lelouch was a douche for using Rolo. All the poor kid wanted was to make Lelouch happy. Killing Shirley was a fluke. Hell, I almost cried when Rolo died protecting his 'big brother', and all I could think was that Lelouch didn't deserve to know Rolo.
    I also agree with proEuphie when Suzaku can't technically be a traitor to the japanese govt.
    Lastly, I agree with Suzaku's idea. To change the Britannian government from thre inside. I believe that is the best way to deal with Britannnia. Let's not forget, it's Charles that's evil, not all of Britannia. There were innocent Brittanians who wanted nothing with the war and just wanted to live their lives.
    Actually I have to give the devil his due and say that Lelouch was not totally responsible for creating F.L.E.I.A. -- killing Euphie just made Nina get involved in the project and help complete it faster. If the project had been completed weeks or months later, the fighting might have been over before it was ready.
    I believe I read that ten million people were killed when F.L.E.I.A. was used on Tokyo and twenty five million when it was used on Pendragon, or whatever. Anyway, millions, not thousands. Yuck!
    Suzaku's plan of trying to reform Britannia from the inside ran into a number of problems in the first few episodes. He probably despaired until he met Euphemia, a moderately powerful Britannian who wanted to do what was good for the Japanese.
    Lelouch's plan for saving the Japanese though violent revolution also met a lot of problems and set backs, starting when the resistance captured CC in the first episode and caused Clovis to panic and order the Shinjaku massacre and climaxing in the second battle for Tokyo when millions were killed though the use of F.L.E.I.A.
    Both peaceful and violent ways have a lot of difficulties and set backs, but if you try peaceful ways you will not give your opponents a push toward responding violently to your actions, and will reduce the possibility that violence will escalate.
    There were tens of millions of slaves in 1750 and almost none in 1900. Except in the tiny nation of Haiti, all were freed by the efforts of reformers working within the system instead of by bloody slave revolts.
    In the USA there have been many important political revolutions which are not usually considered revolutions because they were carried out by ordinary political methods instead of violent civil war. They include universal male suffrage , free, universal, and mandatory public education, the program of the Republican Party in the 1850s and 1860s, the progressive movement, woman's suffrage, the new Deal, the Great Society, the Civil Rights Movement, and so on.[/quote]
    Last edited by proEuphie; 03-28-2009 at 09:13 PM.

  3. #78
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    proEuphie, we all get it the things lelouch did werent all that good, but the motive behind them werent that bad either he never wanted to rule the world. just get over it he paid for all the things he did in the final episode when suzaku killed him, besides he did more good than evil.

  4. #79
    Senior Member Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun has a reputation beyond repute Funkgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    proEuphie, we all get it the things lelouch did werent all that good, but the motive behind them werent that bad either he never wanted to rule the world. just get over it he paid for all the things he did in the final episode when suzaku killed him, besides he did more good than evil.
    I approve of this message.


    Most people have short comings if given too much power or authority. Intentions may be good, actions to achieve those goals may be borderline bad, but in this instance the outcome was unexpectedly better for the whole.
    Sure Wish I had a little dvd player on my forklift at work... no, wait, that would be dangerous.


  5. #80
    Junior Member Virendar is on a distinguished road Virendar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkgun View Post
    I approve of this message.


    Most people have short comings if given too much power or authority. Intentions may be good, actions to achieve those goals may be borderline bad, but in this instance the outcome was unexpectedly better for the whole.
    i agree

    he was a genius and his methods may have been questionable, but in his own way he did was was right

  6. #81
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    I am all for Lelouch. ^^ Yeah it's true some of the things he has done could be questionable but overall he was the closest to changing the world into a better place. He's uber smart and very determined. I would totally back Lelouch up for anything. He's awesome!! ^^
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  7. #82
    The Local Vampire XxPantherChickxX has a reputation beyond repute XxPantherChickxX has a reputation beyond repute XxPantherChickxX has a reputation beyond repute XxPantherChickxX has a reputation beyond repute XxPantherChickxX has a reputation beyond repute XxPantherChickxX has a reputation beyond repute XxPantherChickxX has a reputation beyond repute XxPantherChickxX has a reputation beyond repute XxPantherChickxX has a reputation beyond repute XxPantherChickxX has a reputation beyond repute XxPantherChickxX has a reputation beyond repute XxPantherChickxX's Avatar
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    I choose Lelouch because I think he had better ethics.
    *Very short reply*

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  8. #83
    Junior Member Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette's Avatar
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    Both characters made questionable choices; more so Suzaku.
    But I support him more than I do Lelouch.
    I mean, if you look at R2, Lelouch seemed to go a tad insane.
    (No offense to the Lulu fans.)
    I like Lulu, infact, he's my 3rd favorite character,
    but I'd choose the Knights of the Round over the Black Knights.

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  9. #84
    Searching Dragon Ranger has a reputation beyond repute Dragon Ranger has a reputation beyond repute Dragon Ranger has a reputation beyond repute Dragon Ranger has a reputation beyond repute Dragon Ranger has a reputation beyond repute Dragon Ranger has a reputation beyond repute Dragon Ranger has a reputation beyond repute Dragon Ranger has a reputation beyond repute Dragon Ranger has a reputation beyond repute Dragon Ranger has a reputation beyond repute Dragon Ranger has a reputation beyond repute Dragon Ranger's Avatar
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    things did go bad for Lelouch later on in R2

  10. #85
    Junior Member Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette has a brilliant future Rivette's Avatar
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    Agreed, Dragon.

    He just sort of lost it on R2.

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    hi.

  11. #86
    ~ Aura ~ Legend of the Twilight has a reputation beyond repute Legend of the Twilight has a reputation beyond repute Legend of the Twilight has a reputation beyond repute Legend of the Twilight has a reputation beyond repute Legend of the Twilight has a reputation beyond repute Legend of the Twilight has a reputation beyond repute Legend of the Twilight has a reputation beyond repute Legend of the Twilight has a reputation beyond repute Legend of the Twilight has a reputation beyond repute Legend of the Twilight has a reputation beyond repute Legend of the Twilight has a reputation beyond repute Legend of the Twilight's Avatar
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    Lelouch is fighting for something good. Even if he occasionally does things that are wrong, he never means to do the wrong thing.

    Suzaku is just an idiot and a traitor. He'd rather be Britainia's dog and "try to help" the Japanese people. He also doesn't seem to care if Nunnally is without Lelouch, which obviously hurts her.
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  12. #87
    Junior Member Rorschach' is infamous around these parts Rorschach' is infamous around these parts Rorschach' is infamous around these parts Rorschach' is infamous around these parts Rorschach' is infamous around these parts Rorschach' is infamous around these parts Rorschach''s Avatar
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    Lulu for obvious reasons his pan changed the world

    A. it made sure no single empire would ever be allowed to rule again.
    B. United the world against him
    C. Cleared his sisters name
    D. Showed the world the wrongs of WMD in the hands of anyone is dangerous

    Suzaku was just a tag along and he provided no alternative to Lelu's plan

  13. #88
    Senior Member +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+ has a reputation beyond repute +Namiko+'s Avatar
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    WOW^^ Never knew there would be this many Lulu fans! I love Lelouch^^ Def my favorite character! I do not agree with EVERYthing he did, but in EVERY SINGLE WAR EVER innocent people are killed. How does Lelouch killing innocent people to save millions more any worse that many Great Leaders of the world who killed people in wars?

    I agree with Lelouch and he has made some of the greatest points I have ever seen! Like, for instance:

    An eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth? Pretty soon we'll be left with a bunch of toothless blind people.

    and

    When somebody wins...the fighting will stop.


    YAY LULU


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  14. #89
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legend of the Twilight View Post
    Lelouch is fighting for something good. Even if he occasionally does things that are wrong, he never means to do the wrong thing.
    By that logic, Suzaku is also in the right, since while he did bad things, he wanted (and had) good come out of his actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legend of the Twilight View Post
    Suzaku is just an idiot and a traitor. He'd rather be Britainia's dog and "try to help" the Japanese people. He also doesn't seem to care if Nunnally is without Lelouch, which obviously hurts her.
    While Suzaku's plan was not as proactive as Lelouch, being an honorary Britanian was not really a bad thing (Lelouch even said this to him). As Lelouch pointed out, Japan resisting Britania, with its "fight to the death" mentality, could have lead to its destruction had Suzaku not shot his father and Japan surrendered. When it comes to Nunnally, Suzaku was always going to protect her, but Lelouch was the one causing the rebellion; its not like he can just hand Nunnally over to him (in fact, that would be defeating the point).

    Am I saying this because I am on Suzaku's "side"? No. In fact, while I love the series, I am on no one's "side", which would be implying that one person is right and the other is wrong, since what happens in Code Geass is a little bit more comlicated than that. You appently either choose between the guy who sided with the enemy to change things from the inside (a slower, less proactive, but less violent way of changing things) or the guy who used the people of the other guy as tools to get his revenge on his father and destroy the oppressing empire (a faster, more proactive, but much more violent way of changing things).
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  15. #90
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    WOW^^ Never knew there would be this many Lulu fans! I love Lelouch^^ Def my favorite character! I do not agree with EVERYthing he did, but in EVERY SINGLE WAR EVER innocent people are killed. How does Lelouch killing innocent people to save millions more any worse that many Great Leaders of the world who killed people in wars?

    I agree with Lelouch and he has made some of the greatest points I have ever seen! Like, for instance:

    An eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth? Pretty soon we'll be left with a bunch of toothless blind people.

    and

    When somebody wins...the fighting will stop.


    YAY LULU
    You say that in every single war ever innocent people are killed. Perhaps. But Sun Tzu in the Art of War says that he who defeats the enemy in a hundred battles is less great than he would wins without fighting. Sun Tzu believed that a great strategist could win without fighting (and thus without killing anyone, let alone the few who are innocent) though superior strategy. Sun Tzu didn't believe in magic, but obviously he would have believed that it was better to brainwash your enemies with magic than to defeat them in bloody battles, that only a stupid general would prefer winning though slaughter and destruction and war than by magically making the enemy your followers.

    Lelouch could have done that, but he chose to fight wars and revolutions instead of geassing the Britannian government and army into loyalty to him. It is true that unknown to Lelouch the Emperor was watching and might have sent VV to take the geass off everyone that Lelouch geassed. But Wolfgirl90 doubts that VV would bother to take a geass command off of even one person, Euphemia, let alone the entire Brittannian army.

    Anyway, Lelouch did not take the obvious course to reduced the casualties of his revolution to a minimum.

    And the Geass Directorate Massacre and the murder of Euphemia were totally evil. And they were totally unnecessary to achieve any good or evil or controversial goals that Lelouch achieved or tried and failed to achieve. They were totally unnecessary and unjustified.

    You can praise Lelouch's other actions to the heavens and I will think that you are just being carried away by your enthusiasem for your favorite character. But if you don't add that the Geass Directorate Massacre and the murder of Euphemia were totally unjustified, the two terrible crimes of your otherwise noble and great hero, I will fight you to the finish to convince you that not only were those two deeds evil, but everything else that Lelouch did was evil.

    I can make a truce with Lelouch lovers who admit that killing Euphemia and the Geass Directorate Massacre were evil, but I will have no peace with those who claim that those two deeds were the least bit good or justified.[/quote]

    You ask how Lelouch killing innocent people to save millions makes him any worse than the great leaders of history. Most of the great leaders of history were evil. So claiming that Lelouch is no worse than the great leaders of history is the same as admitting that he was evil. For example, FDR, Churchill, and Truman were great leaders, but since they permitted air raids that slaughtered thousands of civilians at a time they were clearly evil men.

    If you combined Lelouch's drive to change the world with Euphemia's refusal to kill, you would have a truly great and good leader, far superior to anyone in our world's history.[/quote]
    Last edited by proEuphie; 05-13-2009 at 11:27 PM.

  16. #91
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legend of the Twilight View Post
    Lelouch is fighting for something good. Even if he occasionally does things that are wrong, he never means to do the wrong thing.

    Suzaku is just an idiot and a traitor. He'd rather be Britainia's dog and "try to help" the Japanese people. He also doesn't seem to care if Nunnally is without Lelouch, which obviously hurts her.
    How can you say that Lelouch never means to do the wrong thing? How can ordering the Geass Directorate Massacre be unintentional? How can walking up to Euphemia, pointing the gun at her and pulling the trigger be unintentional? In the thread "did Euphemia escape from the control of her geass before Lelouch shot her?" my post # 28 lists fifteen ways to capture Euphemia alive just as fast, just as easy, and with just as much safety for Lelouch and the Japanese as killing her. Is Lelouch such an idiot he can't think of at least one of those ways to capture her alive, or other ways which aren't on my list?

    As for Suzaku being a traitor, I pointed out in a previous post in this thread (#51) that Suzaku is not a traitor, though the Black Knights are traitors against the government in control of the area they live in.

    You say that Suzaku doesn't care if Nunnally is without Lelouch, which obviously hurts her. Well Lelouch killed Euphemia when he could have captured her alive easily and safely. Lelouch didn't care about murdering innocent Euphemia who loved and trusted him, and he didn't care that would hurt Nunnally. And Lelouch saw how the death of Shirley's father hurt her, and yet he continued to plan to achieve his goals by a bloody revolution which would hurt many other people instead of using his geass to make the entire Britannian government and army obey him and do what was right. [/quote]
    Last edited by proEuphie; 05-13-2009 at 11:31 PM.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    Lelouch could have done that, but he chose to fight wars and revolutions instead of geassing the Britannian government and army into loyalty to him. It is true that unknown to Lelouch the Emperor was watching and might have sent VV to take the geass off everyone that Lelouch geassed. But Wolfgirl90 doubts that VV would bother to take a geass command off of even one person, Euphemia, let alone the entire Brittannian army.

    Anyway, Lelouch did not take the obvious course to reduced the casualties of his revolution to a minimum.
    Yeah. I hope you realize that that action would be short of impossible. In fact, Lelouch runs through the thought of using the Geass on every single Britannian soldier and government official right from the get-go and decides, just like I said, that that would be nothing short of impossible. The best course of action would be to rise to the top of Britannian power and control the soldiers and the government that way. Which is what he did.

    And please do not confuse what I said (there are quote tags for a reason). When it came to V.V, I was talking about your plan to have Lelouch force V.V into canceling the Geass that was placed on Euphemia. What I said was that that would be impossible since V.V had no moral obligation to help Lelouch (and in fact, hates him) and he is immortal. You can't "force" him to do anything. So, V.V would be hard pressed to do ANYTHING that Lelouch said. However, V.V, being Charles' brother and partner in crime, would help Charles. So that argument, once again, is moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You can praise Lelouch's other actions to the heavens and I will think that you are just being carried away by your enthusiasem for your favorite character. But if you don't add that the Geass Directorate Massacre and the murder of Euphemia were totally unjustified, the two terrible crimes of your otherwise noble and great hero, I will fight you to the finish to convince you that not only were those two deeds evil, but everything else that Lelouch did was evil.
    See what I put in bold? You, OF ALL PEOPLE, have no real right to criticize people about their enthusiasm for their favorite character. All you really talk about is either how evil Lelouch is or great Euphemia was. Of the 7 threads that you have created, 3 were specifically aimed at dicussing something about Euphemia,usually her death (2 others skewed in that direction, dispite the topic). Hell, you have "Euphie" in your name. So, you really can not talk about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    I can make a truce with Lelouch lovers who admit that killing Euphemia and the Geass Directorate Massacre were evil, but I will have no peace with those who claim that those two deeds were the least bit good or justified.

    You ask how Lelouch killing innocent people to save millions makes him any worse than the great leaders of history. Most of the great leaders of history were evil. So claiming that Lelouch is no worse than the great leaders of history is the same as admitting that he was evil. For example, FDR, Churchill, and Truman were great leaders, but since they permitted air raids that slaughtered thousands of civilians at a time they were clearly evil men.

    If you combined Lelouch's drive to change the world with Euphemia's refusal to kill, you would have a truly great and good leader, far superior to anyone in our world's history.
    Ummm...who are you to offer a "truce"? The problem with you is that you act as if you are the only person (or rather, THE person) who knows the difference between good and evil and the opinions of everybody else do not matter so long as they disagree, even slightly, on YOUR definition of good and evil. These concepts are rather complex, ones that really cannot be seperated from one another. That is something that we are all taught at one point, but one you have apparently missed. Idealistically, yes, what Lelouch did was indeed evil. However, who has the right to use THEIR definition of evil and call him out on it, since the same definition of good could be applied to him, as we, as unfortunate as it may seem, do not live in such an idealistic world?

    For example, you have some nerve applying the term "evil" to such people as FDR, Truman and Churchill. You are indeed entitled to your own opinion that good and evil are strictly black and white concepts (which they are not, but again, your opinion) but it is rather immature to apply the term "evil" to every single person who declares a war or participates in it. That falls into the realm of the "Fallacy of the undistributed middle". Your logic apparently works like this:
    1. All people who declare war and/or bomb people are evil.
    2. FDR, Churchill and Truman declared war and/or bombed people
    3. Therefore, FDR, Churchill and Truman are evil
    This is a logical fallacy.

    And Euphemia? The woman is strategically and politically challenged. She is totally naive to things around her. We saw her in battle ONCE, and she almost failed in doing that. Again, your logic runs on a fallacy:
    1. All great leaders do not kill people
    2. Euphemia refuses to kill people
    3. Therefore, Euphemia is a great leader
    Yes, this is quite the logical fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    How can you say that Lelouch never means to do the wrong thing? How can ordering the Geass Directorate Massacre be unintentional? How can walking up to Euphemia, pointing the gun at her and pulling the trigger be unintentional? In the thread "did Euphemia escape from the control of her geass before Lelouch shot her?" my post # 28 lists fifteen ways to capture Euphemia alive just as fast, just as easy, and with just as much safety for Lelouch and the Japanese as killing her. Is Lelouch such an idiot he can't think of at least one of those ways to capture her alive, or other ways which aren't on my list?
    He doesn't mean to do the wrong thing. I don't think that any of the characters (Charles included) mean to do the wrong thing. I don't think anyone said that (go back and read the posts again). Everybody knows that the Geass Directorate Massacre was intentional. Everybody knows that shooting Euphemia was intentional.

    However, since "right" and "wrong" are only concepts that can be applied blankly to so many things, again, like I said before, you are not the only person who can determine what these words mean, as if you are the expert or the "go-to" person on the matters of good and evil. You even gave a reference to your own thread and post as if you are some kind expert.

    Was Lelouch shooting Euphemia good or evil? Who can make this decision? You? Because while shooting an innocent girl would be more than evil, shooting someone who was quilty of killing many people would be good. Then, there are the other factors that are working in the backround (the Geass, the Black Rebellion, etc), but, as I can tell, you could care less about these things so long as Euphemia, your favorite character, ends up dead, which, according to your logic (which I have already revealed to comprise of a fallacy), is evil no matter what the circumstances are.

    Again, am I defending Lelouch because I am on his side? No. As I said before, I am on nobody's "side", which, like I said before, would imply that one person is completely right and the other is completely wrong, which, since "good" and "evil" are not completely seperate, black and white concepts, would not be true under any real circumstance.
    This is my war face.

    This is what happens to trolls who mess with me.

  18. #93
    Senior Member blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight has a reputation beyond repute blackrosetwilight's Avatar
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    You know what? Im going to make a thread on who was right thread wolfgirl90 or proEuphy and let the people of AF put this to rest by voting... lol nah, as much as I enjoyed both wolfgirl90 and proEuphy fling about Lelouch actions, this needs to stop somewhere and I doubt Im the person to do so but... eh it sure was fun.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight View Post
    You know what? Im going to make a thread on who was right thread wolfgirl90 or proEuphy and let the people of AF put this to rest by voting... lol nah, as much as I enjoyed both wolfgirl90 and proEuphy fling about Lelouch actions, this needs to stop somewhere and I doubt Im the person to do so but... eh it sure was fun.
    You would almost hate to see it end though, would you not?

    =D
    Sure Wish I had a little dvd player on my forklift at work... no, wait, that would be dangerous.


  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Namiko+ View Post
    WOW^^ Never knew there would be this many Lulu fans! I love Lelouch^^ Def my favorite character! I do not agree with EVERYthing he did, but in EVERY SINGLE WAR EVER innocent people are killed. How does Lelouch killing innocent people to save millions more any worse that many Great Leaders of the world who killed people in wars?

    I agree with Lelouch and he has made some of the greatest points I have ever seen! Like, for instance:

    An eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth? Pretty soon we'll be left with a bunch of toothless blind people.

    and

    When somebody wins...the fighting will stop.


    YAY LULU

    You say: How does Lelouch killing innocent people to save millions more any worse that many Great Leaders of the world who killed people in wars?

    I say:

    You say it is right to kill hundreds or thousands to bring peace to millions. Which characters beside Lelouch may have followed such a course? Perhaps Emperor Charles and his generals Schneitzel and Cornelia, when they conquered area fourteen and area fifteen and area sixteen, etc. They may have believed that it doesn't matter how many people they killed because if they ended war forever by conquering the world they would save far more lives than they killed. Even if they killed billions and exterminated all the non Britannians, they would still be doing good by saving the world from war forever. And they would have been right.

    But if Euphemia sought to persuade them to fight in a kinder and less bloodthirsty way she would have been right, also. It is wrong to waste lives by killing more people than is necessary. And if Britannia killed and destroyed less during its conquests the conquered regions would pay more in taxes and Britannia could afford a bigger army to conquer the world faster. And by being less violent Britannia would be less hated in the newly-conquered areas and would need to keep smaller garrisons in them, thus having more forces available to conquer more lands faster.

    So maybe Charles, Schneitzel, and Cornelia together formed a Lelouch-like Great Leader such as you approve of, and with Euphemia's influence to reduce the killing and destruction to a minimum, together they may have formed a Great Leader such as I could approve of.

    But Lelouch killed the hundreds and the thousands and maybe millions (depending on estimated casualty figures and how much of the blame you assign to him in specific actions) to give war to the billions. When Britannia defeated the Euro Universe and negotiated the Chinese marriage and seemed about to conquer and unite the world Lelouch organized the United Federation of Nations to oppose Britannia and prevented the Chinese-Britannian marriage. Even if the United Federation of Nations is a lot stronger than the League of Nations or the United Nations it will probably be too weak to keep the peace once the effects of the wars and the Zero Requiem wear off. [/quote]

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You say: How does Lelouch killing innocent people to save millions more any worse that many Great Leaders of the world who killed people in wars?

    I say:

    You say it is right to kill hundreds or thousands to bring peace to millions. Which characters beside Lelouch may have followed such a course? Perhaps Emperor Charles and his generals Schneitzel and Cornelia, when they conquered area fourteen and area fifteen and area sixteen, etc. They may have believed that it doesn't matter how many people they killed because if they ended war forever by conquering the world they would save far more lives than they killed. Even if they killed billions and exterminated all the non Britannians, they would still be doing good by saving the world from war forever. And they would have been right.

    But if Euphemia sought to persuade them to fight in a kinder and less bloodthirsty way she would have been right, also. It is wrong to waste lives by killing more people than is necessary. And if Britannia killed and destroyed less during its conquests the conquered regions would pay more in taxes and Britannia could afford a bigger army to conquer the world faster. And by being less violent Britannia would be less hated in the newly-conquered areas and would need to keep smaller garrisons in them, thus having more forces available to conquer more lands faster.

    So maybe Charles, Schneitzel, and Cornelia together formed a Lelouch-like Great Leader such as you approve of, and with Euphemia's influence to reduce the killing and destruction to a minimum, together they may have formed a Great Leader such as I could approve of.
    [/quote]
    See this is where you're wrong proEuphy, the only inoccent people (people who werent involved in the war) Lelouch personally killed was probably only Euphy, the rest of all the other inocccent people died from many unavoidable factors of war, such as stray fire, unexpected factors appearing on the field, or a loony possesed princess with an assualt rifle look at the war in afganastan or iraq minus the loony princess. However grouping Lelouch with Charles and crew isnt correct either. Why? Well the diffrece is Lelouch never intended for himself to lead the world in the first place, second he never saw himself as part of the new world he would create, and he never intended to be glorified either, since zero was a faceless man. I personally compare Lelouch to Nameless and the Qin Emporer from the movie Hero. I would love to explain how Lelouch compare to them but it would be better off if you watch the movie yourself and find the comparison.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    You say: How does Lelouch killing innocent people to save millions more any worse that many Great Leaders of the world who killed people in wars?

    I say:

    You say it is right to kill hundreds or thousands to bring peace to millions. Which characters beside Lelouch may have followed such a course? Perhaps Emperor Charles and his generals Schneitzel and Cornelia, when they conquered area fourteen and area fifteen and area sixteen, etc. They may have believed that it doesn't matter how many people they killed because if they ended war forever by conquering the world they would save far more lives than they killed. Even if they killed billions and exterminated all the non Britannians, they would still be doing good by saving the world from war forever. And they would have been right.

    But Lelouch killed the hundreds and the thousands and maybe millions (depending on estimated casualty figures and how much of the blame you assign to him in specific actions) to give war to the billions. When Britannia defeated the Euro Universe and negotiated the Chinese marriage and seemed about to conquer and unite the world Lelouch organized the United Federation of Nations to oppose Britannia and prevented the Chinese-Britannian marriage. Even if the United Federation of Nations is a lot stronger than the League of Nations or the United Nations it will probably be too weak to keep the peace once the effects of the wars and the Zero Requiem wear off.
    The sad truth of it is that everything is fair in love and war. The ends justify the means.
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  23. #98
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SigmaSD View Post
    The sad truth of it is that everything is fair in love and war. The ends justify the means.
    No. It is not true that any ends, however good or evil, justifies any means, no matter how good or evil. If there is any truth to the saying that the ends justify the means it is that the means must be proportional to the ends. In war that means that no level of violence is acceptable unless it is close to the minimum level of violence necessary to achieve the ends, and that minimum level of violence varies with the goodness and importance of the ends.

    For example, if Lelouch killed Euphemia to save the Japanese from her the means were not justified by the ends since he could have captured her alive just as easy and then she would have been almost as harmless as if she was dead. The tiny little bit of danger a live Euphemia would pose was more than counterbalanced by the good example that taking her prisoner would set, and the lives of persons taken prisoner, instead of being killed, in the future because of that good example..

    And, of course, ______(insert the name of almost any Code Geass character here) killed more persons in battle than he/she absolutely needed to, and thus more than were justified by the ends.[/quote]
    Last edited by proEuphie; 05-16-2009 at 08:24 PM.

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by proEuphie View Post
    In war that means that no level of violence is acceptable unless it is close to the minimum level of violence necessary to achieve the ends, and that minimum level of violence varies with the goodness and importance of the ends.
    [/quote]
    proEuphy...what are you talking about? There no such thing as minimum violence, only minimum casualty, so how do you measure violence? Besides in war both violence and casualty are the two most unavoidable thing.

  25. #100
    Senior Member proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie is infamous around these parts proEuphie's Avatar
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    See this is where you're wrong proEuphy, the only inoccent people (people who werent involved in the war) Lelouch personally killed was probably only Euphy, the rest of all the other inocccent people died from many unavoidable factors of war, such as stray fire, unexpected factors appearing on the field, or a loony possesed princess with an assualt rifle look at the war in afganastan or iraq minus the loony princess. However grouping Lelouch with Charles and crew isnt correct either. Why? Well the diffrece is Lelouch never intended for himself to lead the world in the first place, second he never saw himself as part of the new world he would create, and he never intended to be glorified either, since zero was a faceless man. I personally compare Lelouch to Nameless and the Qin Emporer from the movie Hero. I would love to explain how Lelouch compare to them but it would be better off if you watch the movie yourself and find the comparison.[/quote]

    You say that the only innocent person Lelouch probably killed personally was Euphiy. Well Lelouch killed her personally and she was really innocent.

    But Lelouch killed a lot more innocent people than that.

    Take Kagura (please! as the old joke goes). She didn't plant any bombs or fire any guns and she didn't throw a guest out of a hotel window to his death in "Black Knight". But she was at least nominally one of the leaders of the Kyoto Group and if she ever protested or voted against giving funding to any terrorist organizations the series omitted to show that fact. So as far as the creators told us, she is just as evil as any of the terrorists that the Kyoto Group funded, and is guilty of killing all the guilty and innocent persons who were killed by those terrorist groups while she was a leader of the Kyoto Group. I would say Kagura was the most evil fourteen-year-old girl in anime history but that would probably get me a depressingly long list of competitors for the title.

    You say : "the rest of all the other inocccent people died from many unavoidable factors of war, such as stray fire, unexpected factors appearing on the field,"

    Good military leaders try to reduce the deaths caused by those unavoidable factors. For example, they try to fight in the least densely populated areas they can. And some evil military leaders hide their soldiers in a dense civilian population in the hope that the enemy won't risk the lives of civilians by attacking.

    And Lelouch, the great military planner, sometimes fought his battles in populated areas. At the Battle of Narita his landslide got out of control and smashed into the town of Narita, fortunately almost totally evacuated (probably due to Euphemia's influence on Cornelia).

    The Black Knights fought their way through Toko in the first Decisive Battle of Tokyo with stray shells and bombs landing in the middle of a densely populated area. And Lelouch shot down tens or hundreds of Britannian aircraft over the Tokyo settlement. If Nunnally wasn't still innocent at that time it would have been poetic justice if Lelouch found out that one of those falling aircraft killed Nunnally. Then he would have felt the sorrow and grief that an unknown number of other people felt due to his planning to fight inside the Tokyo settlement instead of luring Cornelia to fight in some less populated area.

    In the Second Decisive Battle of Tokyo The Black Knights were winning when the Britannians used F.R.E.I.J.A. and millions of Britannians and Japanese in the area were killed. Killed in an invasion which Lelouch started.

    And of course Lelouch was guilty of killing all the people, including the innocent ones, who died in the Fuji Massacre. The Fuji Massacre was the direct result of his earlier plan to make Euphemia shoot him, sparking a revolution in which thousands of people would be tricked into dying for his cause.

    Saying that Lelouch only killed one innocent person personally might be accurate, but it is just as misleading as saying that Emperor Charles never personally killed any innocent person. Or that the great warlords of World War II, Hitler, Stalin, Churchill, Mussolini, and FDR, etc., were innocent because they never personally killed any innocent people during the conflict.[/quote]
    Last edited by proEuphie; 05-16-2009 at 09:12 PM.

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