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Thread: War in Iraq

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    As far as this topic goes, I do believe there are a bunch or radical Islamic factions in the middle east, and their actions are far more heinous than those of modern Christian factions.
    Ah, you mean modern Christian factions like the KKK? Because they're compleeetely different, right? Fundamentalism breeds ignorance and violence, irregardless of religion. Segments of religious texts, taken out of context, can motivate almost any act.



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  2. #27
    Yoko Littner Fan Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eris View Post
    Ah, you mean modern Christian factions like the KKK? Because they're compleeetely different, right?
    Actually, they are. When is the last time a KKK member flew a plane into a building or blew up a crowd of people with some suicidal bombing? Apples and oranges.

    Fundamentalism breeds ignorance and violence, irregardless of religion. Segments of religious texts, taken out of context, can motivate almost any act.
    It really comes down to doing bad stuff. The people who are doing some really heinous stuff in the middle east happen to do so in the name of Islam. The reason why it's easier to do such in the name of Islam is shown if you watch the OP's video. You don't find stuff like that in the new testament.

    Of course, we were talking in context about Religion and ideologies used as a cause of war, not Religion and ideologies used as an excuse to seek peace. See: World War II and The Crusades. Ideology (In this case Nazism) and/or Religion in both cases lead people to believe it was their right to loot and control the enemy.
    I assumed that your original point was that all wars are solely due to resources, yet you're giving me walls of text just to explain how resources are involved in some way. Wikipedia didn't say "Hitler wanted resources" under causes of the war. It gives you a wall. If you believe what you're typing, I suggest you edit the wikipedia page and say "Splitting hairs much" in the talk section.

  3. #28
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    Define bad stuff.
    I describe it as the interuption of the pursuit of happiness.

  4. #29
    Senior Member gd0929918 has a reputation beyond repute gd0929918 has a reputation beyond repute gd0929918 has a reputation beyond repute gd0929918 has a reputation beyond repute gd0929918 has a reputation beyond repute gd0929918 has a reputation beyond repute gd0929918 has a reputation beyond repute gd0929918 has a reputation beyond repute gd0929918 has a reputation beyond repute gd0929918 has a reputation beyond repute gd0929918 has a reputation beyond repute gd0929918's Avatar
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    /didnt read posts or watch the video.

    i agreed with America going into Afghanistan to get Osama, but once they started diving into Iraq, i was like "screw that, America is now fudged"

    although, i thought it was like a cruel irony of what happened. America trained Osama to be this awesome assassin, gave him millions of dollars worth of weapons, and he totally drops a deuce all over America.
    If it just tastes sweet
    Let's put some salt on it

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    It really comes down to doing bad stuff. The people who are doing some really heinous stuff in the middle east happen to do so in the name of Islam. The reason why it's easier to do such in the name of Islam is shown if you watch the OP's video. You don't find stuff like that in the new testament.
    New Testament says every bit of the Old Testament is correct. If anything, the difference is that Islam actually reads their book full of insanities, unlike like the Hebrews and Christians. I mean, when's the last time you heard of a parent stoning his disobedient child to death in the western world, even though Jesus Christ explicitly approved of that punishment?

    I assumed that your original point was that all wars are solely due to resources, yet you're giving me walls of text just to explain how resources are involved in some way. Wikipedia didn't say "Hitler wanted resources" under causes of the war. It gives you a wall. If you believe what you're typing, I suggest you edit the wikipedia page and say "Splitting hairs much" in the talk section.
    The Wikipedia links weren't intended as proof economic factors were centric to those wars. I gave them to you because it seemed to me you were ignoring them, as they are extremely obvious examples of what I'm talking about.

    Tell me Hitler didn't invade Poland for the resources to build up a power base to control all of Europe. And then tell me Hitler's ultimate goal wasn't control over all of Europe. And then tell me that control of Europe is somehow different from control of Europe's 's resources. By definition, Control of Europe is Control of Europe's resources, and vice versa.
    Ehhh, I dunno if I'll stick around. We'll see.

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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manhattan_Project_2000 View Post
    By definition, Control of Europe is Control of Europe's resources, and vice versa.
    So you are saying the only reason we invaded Iraq was for oil?

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dieing25 View Post
    So you are saying the only reason we invaded Iraq was for oil?
    Well, let's review what the possible reasons could be from an executive standpoint.

    Weapons of Mass Destruction/Stopping Al Qaeda- Would be protecting our resources, although it's extremely unlikely since the Executive branch was well aware that the evidence we were using was unreliable and that Al Qaeda and Saddam fundamentally disliked each other and were not BFF.

    Compassion/the People of Iraq- Wouldn't be protecting our resources, except in a very distant way assuming Iraq became a fun loving democracy overnight and the rest of the Middle East approved of our occupation of Iraq. But come on, there are places that need it as much if not more. North Korea, Cuba, and any given country in Central Africa come to mind. Not to mention this argument only started coming up about a year after we failed to find WMDs.

    Reverse Domino Effect- The plan that says that if we turn one Middle Eastern nation that isn't Israel into a capitalist nation, the rest would fall to revolutions and become the same. Would be protecting our resources by turning the middle east into a bunch of blue jean wearing social democracies friendly to American interests overnight. Of course, the thought is so insane that it's hard to think that anyone would believe in it enough to actually try it.

    Oil- Somewhat believable if you conceder the profound delusions the executive office was operating under in the first place. Also more believable if much of your staff are affiliated with the Oil Establishment, and you're VP is a former CEO of a Contractor that completely mopped the floor with No-Bid contracts. Oil is only an unbelievable rational if you assume the Intelligence and Incorruptibility of the Bush Administration beforehand, and looking back I see no reason to believe in either, especially in light of their blatant mismanagement of the war.

    I, of course, am not an auger or a mind reader. But none of these rationale disagree with my point, and I personally believe that the Oil and Reverse Domino Effect were the true rationale. And they do seem hard to believe, I have yet to hear a more reasonable theory from anyone on either side.
    Ehhh, I dunno if I'll stick around. We'll see.

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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manhattan_Project_2000 View Post
    New Testament says every bit of the Old Testament is correct. If anything, the difference is that Islam actually reads their book full of insanities, unlike like the Hebrews and Christians. I mean, when's the last time you heard of a parent stoning his disobedient child to death in the western world, even though Jesus Christ explicitly approved of that punishment?
    Overall, The Bible is simply more peaceful than the Koran. This is just a simple fact man. Christians don't obligated to read every part of The Bible because Jesus emphasized loving God and forgiveness so much.

    Also with "book full of insanities", you need to sympathize with people of the past. They didn't know the scientific crap that we know today. It's natural for someone to exaggerate misexplain something when they can't fully comprehend what is happening.


    Tell me Hitler didn't invade Poland for the resources to build up a power base to control all of Europe. And then tell me Hitler's ultimate goal wasn't control over all of Europe. And then tell me that control of Europe is somehow different from control of Europe's 's resources. By definition, Control of Europe is Control of Europe's resources, and vice versa.
    Okay then, let's isolate resources from the equation.
    If Europe hypothetically gave Hitler all of the resources he demanded in exchange for indefinite peace, would Hitler settle?

    I personally think not. Hitler had ideals and intended to save the world. It was his belief that if you would purge all the "bad" people, you would be full of good Aryans who would build a utopia. Filling the world with his ideology was the main reason for his quest to dominate the world.

    Maybe I was under the wrong impression, but I thought you meant that all wars are solely caused by resources.
    If you simply mean to say resources play as a motivator in all wars, then you'd be right. You are making that point quite well.


    -----
    Any question that asks "why" or for a reason can be answered at many depths.
    For example, if someone said "Why do people start wars?", you could give a very shallow, yet completely accurate answer such as "Because
    they feel that they will benefit from them."
    That would just pose another question though, right? But, couldn't I say a more specific answer was just splitting hairs?
    If you say all wars are started because of reasources, then asking "What exactly did they want with those resources?" becomes a new legitimate question.
    If a country were to say they wanted radioactive material, wouldn't you question why they needed the material? It could be used for Powerplants or for WMDs.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    Overall, The Bible is simply more peaceful than the Koran. This is just a simple fact man. Christians don't obligated to read every part of The Bible because Jesus emphasized loving God and forgiveness so much.
    Well, it's pretty debatable. Skeptic's Annotated Bible/Koran/Book of Mormon was trying to determine whether the Bible or the Koran was crueler. The Bible has more obvious cruelties then the Koran, but the Koran has a higher rate of cruelties.

    And moreover, the Bible didn't emphasis ignoring the Hebrew laws, Jesus himself advocated them, saying that the Jews were wrong to ignore them. The Church did. And since the Church also considers the Book infallible, we can assume that the church can be right on, at best only one of those points. The same problem, in reverse, is present in Islam. The book itself is a grab bag of cruelty and peace. Certain Imams give the cruelty undue weight. Eris' statement was that you can always give parts of a religion undue weight and send it's adherents off on a holy war.

    Also with "book full of insanities", you need to sympathize with people of the past. They didn't know the scientific crap that we know today. It's natural for someone to exaggerate misexplain something when they can't fully comprehend what is happening.
    I'm not talking scientifically, even in the bizarre cases, like insects having four legs. I'm talking morally. It seems pretty messed up, for example, that God (through Moses) tells half the Jews to go slaughter the Golden Cow worshiping half.


    Okay then, let's isolate resources from the equation.
    If Europe hypothetically gave Hitler all of the resources he demanded in exchange for indefinite peace, would Hitler settle?

    I personally think not. Hitler had ideals and intended to save the world. It was his belief that if you would purge all the "bad" people, you would be full of good Aryans who would build a utopia. Filling the world with his ideology was the main reason for his quest to dominate the world.

    Maybe I was under the wrong impression, but I thought you meant that all wars are solely caused by resources.
    If you simply mean to say resources play as a motivator in all wars, then you'd be right. You are making that point quite well.
    That's at least in the same Ballpark. My point, summed up, is that all Military Operations are conducted for a Gain, or to prevent a Loss. Some people think that stating it in such blunt terms is unfair, because it implies that, say Bush invaded Iraq for the same reason Hitler invaded Poland. However, this is simply how it works.

    -----
    Any question that asks "why" or for a reason can be answered at many depths.
    For example, if someone said "Why do people start wars?", you could give a very shallow, yet completely accurate answer such as "Because
    they feel that they will benefit from them."
    That would just pose another question though, right? But, couldn't I say a more specific answer was just splitting hairs?
    If you say all wars are started because of reasources, then asking "What exactly did they want with those resources?" becomes a new legitimate question.
    My opinion is that Sunnyside wasn't saying that, say, ideology motivates people to take others resources, but that it is a different motivation entirely. That's the angle at which I replied.
    Last edited by Manhattan_Project_2000; 10-03-2008 at 09:00 AM.
    Ehhh, I dunno if I'll stick around. We'll see.

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