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Thread: Goku vs Superman

  1. #51
    Senior Member TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanosuke23 View Post
    It is comic book SCIENCE!, and it varies with author, generation, and plot convenience. Welcome to American comic book superheroes.
    Any science is based on observation. Here, we must suspend disbelief (treat it as if it were all real and observed) in order to argue effectively. Unless there's something to support an assertion, it is assumed to be false. If this wasn't done, I could claim Goku can transform into a Super Saiyan 12, but just hasn't wanted to before now. Obviously, that's ridiculous, but the pro-Superman folks are doing something similar, albeit less egregiously when they claim Superman has loads of extra power but give no supporting evidence.
    Superman is slower than instantaneous(hence the teleport which is the only thing I mentioned), but faster than any living thing that isn't directly connected to the Speed Force. It isn't a matter of being in a lower-gravity environment(it was at one point, but now he derives his power mostly from the sun), although the same could be said of Goku given his training methods. In terms of regular bodily speed, Superman should at least equal Goku, I'd think.
    This changes nothing. It's known that Goku can use I.T. in battle (it was used thrice on Cell - see above), so he's still faster.
    I do believe there was "chi" involved in that pointing, good sir. Besides, considering that DBZ used its own measurement system for power levels without any real possibility of conversion it's all speculation.
    What I was referring to is that, given a complete lack of other passtimes, I could figure out how many joules of energy were released based on the kinetic and gravitational potential energy of whatever is left of a planet that was destroyed. This guy did something similar with Star Wars' Death Star (he types everything like it's propaganda, but it's just for giggles). If the sumarized page doesn't give you enough information, try here, where the reasoning is explained in much greater detail. If you don't understand the physics, I'm sorry. Once the energy released was known, we could divide the energy (joules) by the time (seconds) to get power (watts). Like I said, though, I'm not going to spend my time doing it because I don't really care quite that much. It can be done, but it's tedious and gives only rough estimates.
    Well, Toriyama himself considers GT noncanon, because he had nothing to do with it. As far as I know he has nothing against the Z anime or its movies.
    Well, I'm pretty sure he hates Broly, and he had a lot to do with the first (Dead Zone something or other) movie, but other than that only the manga is his work. If you threw out GT on the basis that it wasn't Toriyama's, then a lot of the anime must go too. Otherwise, why would you throw out GT? If there's another reason it isn't canon, I'd like to know.
    The reason I haven't used GT Goku is because it wouldn't be any fun. That's all.
    Silver Age Superman is by and large the most broken, plot-armored character to ever exist. They increased the scope of his power to ridiculous levels, and gave him new powers to fit whatever plot they had stuck him in. Super-Ventriloquism that was usable in the vacuum of space, Super-Hypnosis, and yes even SUPER-WEAVING were part of his list of powers.
    Sounds just like GT Goku to me.
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  2. #52
    Member Stu is just really nice Stu is just really nice Stu is just really nice Stu is just really nice Stu's Avatar
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    I never said Krillin coulod beat Superman. All I said was that even Krillin could take a small nuclear blast. This is to invalidate the claim that Superman's defenses are exceptional.
    Sure, was just curious and expanding the conversation on Krillins power level.

    Goku could go across the galaxy in a few seconds. He has a tremedous advantage. Superman could only go so far wihtout aid.
    But Goku still needs more time to recuperate than Supes. That was my point.

    Well, Dende isn't a combatant, but I can see ytour point. The run and heal argument still stands.
    Yes, but it would all depend on where they were fighting, what universe, wouldn't it. Now if it was neutral ground then the run-and-heal argument wouldn't work so well in favour of Goku.

    Goku used I.T. three times against Cell. It does work if need be.
    Here's what I remember:
    - He IT'd above Cell and then threatended to use a Kamehameha.
    - When Cell had become a living bomb and was about to explode, he transported Cell away.
    - What was the third?
    Now even in these two instances it's not the speed of IT that is being used as a strategy but the ability transport distances. Again I say IT's speed would not prove useful as a weapon, eg. IT is not controlled travelling at high speed's unlike where Superman actually can change direction while flying, etc.

    1 - Space is not devoid of sunlight. There's plenty.
    2 - Inside he can still get sunlight. Heard of a window?
    3 - I could argue that, since the moon reflects sunlight, he is still getting a little energy at night (barring a new moon or lunar eclipse), but I could also say that the Lord Slug comment was made for giggles. Stop worrying about it so much.
    1. Yes, but not always.
    2. Again not always.
    Look I could argue the above points, and make many more, but you're nitpicking my points, and changing the direction of my point, which was that he doesn't use up his stored energy at a fast pace.

    I see no reason to think Superman is faster than Goku. As I said above, Goku can and does use I.T. in battle, and I.T. allows him to move at several thousand times the speed of light. This is certain because he travels to other plantes in less than a second. Could you tell me just how fast Suerman is? I'd like to compare him to some characters. A speed or time elapsed for circumnavigation of the globe would do.
    Again, see my point above, technically, Goku can IT to a point but not chnage direction to compensate for a foe movements, etc.
    Good question, I don't know but can check on his speed...

    It'd take no longer than it did to defeat Buu. If the resulting losses are acceptable, tactical retreat is always an option. If you really want to make it limited time, though, I suspect they'd both eventually die when they destroy whatever planet they're on, though that's more a gut feeling than an argument.
    Goku might do that, but I don't thinbk Supes has the power to do that. (Modern Age Superman that is).

    Okay. So why doesn't he? Give me something observed or an official source that backs up your claim of vast reserves of energy.
    You're not listening to what I'm saying. I actually think I'm agreeing with you on this - if you throw a punch, can you vary the intensity of that punch? Or if you blow out a candle, can you vary the strength with which you blow. This is my point, that Superman can do the same but just on a different level.

    If you can give supporting evidence, of course. This isn't O.J.'s trial.
    If you punch a brick wall enough times with your bare knuckles, it will crack.

    First of all...Did you just say the moon is a planet? Dear me. Here I thought it wasn't
    For the love of God, bother to know what you're talking about. Roshi blew up the moon during one of the tournaments when Goku transformed into an ape. This was relatively early in Dragonball and was in the manga, making it definitely canon. Roshi's powe level was measured by Bulma to be 139 (at rest) early in DBZ, and, if you're paying attention, Nappa's PL is 4000. Frieza, before he's even in his final stage, has a PL over 1,000,000. Goku's PL far exceeds that. Kami later cut off Goku's tail while he was training under him and restored the moon. Piccolo later blew it up again when Gohan transformed. Moons are nothing. Planets are nothing.
    Additionally, it was never said by anyone that only Frieza could destroy planets. He has, but so have others.
    I wasn't worried aboout the classification of what makes a planet, but rather the scale of attack it would take to destroy something that size.
    I am well aware of Roshi blowing up the Moon (but chose the Gohan example). No, no, no, planets are not nothing. That's my point, and where the writers got it wrong (but hey, whatever) if Roshi could destroy a planet-like body with that low power level, just think about all those stray blasts of Freiza's on Namek, or Cells, or Buu's. Frieza purposely unleashed a massive blast to destroy Namek but it didn't work. So how could Roshi do it so easily where his blast still had to travel that distance to the moon.

    Yeah, without GT Superman has a chance to win. With GT, he'd be shamefully outmatched. I haven't used GT yet in this thread, though others have.
    We agree then FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=0", Superman would be outmatched in (physical power) against a post-GT Goku.

    I don't really see the relevance in this, but whatever. I asked why he didn't die from dehydration or starvation, that's all. I'm prepared to accept the fact that it happened. Suspension of disbelief is critical; it was observed, so it must be possible.
    Right, well you said you would like to know more about this Superman? So I elaborated for you... Think of it as hybernation then.


    We've established that, thanks.
    Yes, well I mentioned it because it starts to show how he could survive in the sun for that long with no need for food, etc. though I could go on if you like...

    As a note, I just realized someone thought hypnosis was Superman's ticket to sure victory. Roshi knows hypnosis, and has tried to use it on opponents, the only success being with a bizarre man-wolf (or something - he was like a reverse werewolf), and even then the guy had to submit to it voluntarily. Hypnosis is out.
    Besides. I don't think modern day Supes has that ability.

    I'm realy surpirsed that no one's brought up the solar flare/tayoken as a potential self-defeating technique for Goku.
    Elaborate further...

  3. #53
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    It is comic book SCIENCE!, and it varies with author, generation, and plot convenience. Welcome to American comic book superheroes.
    You have to admit though that modern day Superman's powers have been written without a change in power level. They have been consistant.

    Superman is slower than instantaneous(hence the teleport which is the only thing I mentioned), but faster than any living thing that isn't directly connected to the Speed Force. It isn't a matter of being in a lower-gravity environment(it was at one point, but now he derives his power mostly from the sun), although the same could be said of Goku given his training methods. In terms of regular bodily speed, Superman should at least equal Goku, I'd think.
    Yes I would say, unlike Goku Superman's Power/Speed ratio is not equal.


    Silver Age Superman is by and large the most broken, plot-armored character to ever exist. They increased the scope of his power to ridiculous levels, and gave him new powers to fit whatever plot they had stuck him in. Super-Ventriloquism that was usable in the vacuum of space, Super-Hypnosis, and yes even SUPER-WEAVING were part of his list of powers.
    Yeah I'm not that familiar with the Silverage Supes but Super-Ventriloquism was indeed one of his powers!

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    Ok, just consulted some Superman guys and the general (sort of) consensus is that Supes' maximum speed is between 300,000,000 mph - 99% Speed of light, and 30,000 mph when running.
    Though when he is in the atmosphere he could be slower at 60,000 mph.

    Another strategy that I was reminded of was that Superman can breath for much longer periods in space, and that combined with his speed could give him a significant advantage if he could get Goku into space.

    Though this would also depend on whether we are talking a DBZ or DBGT Goku.

  5. #55
    Member TA'sSchizoidConscience has a reputation beyond repute TA'sSchizoidConscience has a reputation beyond repute TA'sSchizoidConscience has a reputation beyond repute TA'sSchizoidConscience has a reputation beyond repute TA'sSchizoidConscience has a reputation beyond repute TA'sSchizoidConscience has a reputation beyond repute TA'sSchizoidConscience has a reputation beyond repute TA'sSchizoidConscience has a reputation beyond repute TA'sSchizoidConscience has a reputation beyond repute TA'sSchizoidConscience has a reputation beyond repute TA'sSchizoidConscience has a reputation beyond repute TA'sSchizoidConscience's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stu
    Here's what I remember:
    - He IT'd above Cell and then threatended to use a Kamehameha.
    - When Cell had become a living bomb and was about to explode, he transported Cell away.
    - What was the third?
    Hey...yeah...I told him that, cause I know DBZ, and TheAsterisk! needed help.
    Here's what I remember for I.T. in battle.
    1 - He dogded Cell's kamehameha in book 18/34. He jumped in the air, called Cell's attention to him, then I.T.ed behind him and kicked him.
    2 - Goku teleporteed to use his kemehameha close up.
    3 - Goku took Cell to the North Kai's planet. Poor blue bugger.
    Goku also used I.T at least once to dogde some of Kid Buu's attacks on the planet of the Kais.
    Now even in these two instances it's not the speed of IT that is being used as a strategy but the ability transport distances. Again I say IT's speed would not prove useful as a weapon, eg. IT is not controlled travelling at high speed's unlike where Superman actually can change direction while flying, etc.
    Since when can DB characters only fly in a straight line?
    ...Oh! You think I.T. is point to point! Well, even though that's true, it can be controlled finely. See, Goku needs a chi source to orient himself, but he doesn't really need to I.T. to right next to that chi. He uses it as a reference point for navigation. That's why he can go behind Cell, in front of Cell, away from K. Buu, an a whole bunch of other places.
    [I, your Regional Governor, comand you to insert the most awesome, unrivalled signature ever seen by mortal eyes here, in the care of this particular user, "TA'sSchizoidConscience." I order this measure because of said user's high standing in my halls as our glorious nation's number one Executioner (1st Class). He will no doubt create the greatest signature in all of creation in accordance with my wishes, further glorifying this grand state of ours.]

  6. #56
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    Hey...yeah...I told him that, cause I know DBZ, and TheAsterisk! needed help.
    Here's what I remember for I.T. in battle.
    1 - He dogded Cell's kamehameha in book 18/34. He jumped in the air, called Cell's attention to him, then I.T.ed behind him and kicked him.
    2 - Goku teleporteed to use his kemehameha close up.
    3 - Goku took Cell to the North Kai's planet. Poor blue bugger.
    Goku also used I.T at least once to dogde some of Kid Buu's attacks on the planet of the Kais.
    Cool, thanks for that! I haven't watched the Cell saga in a while - time to pull them out!

    Since when can DB characters only fly in a straight line?


    ...Oh! You think I.T. is point to point! Well, even though that's true, it can be controlled finely. See, Goku needs a chi source to orient himself, but he doesn't really need to I.T. to right next to that chi. He uses it as a reference point for navigation. That's why he can go behind Cell, in front of Cell, away from K. Buu, an a whole bunch of other places.
    Yeah, you make a good point here that he can actually teleport within a wide/close distance of that person using the chi source as a base point. I still maintain that Superman at high speed would be flying too fast for Goku's IT to be very useful in some kind of ambush.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TA'sSchizoidConscience View Post
    Hey...yeah...I told him that, cause I know DBZ, and TheAsterisk! needed help.
    Here's what I remember for I.T. in battle.
    1 - He dogded Cell's kamehameha in book 18/34. He jumped in the air, called Cell's attention to him, then I.T.ed behind him and kicked him.
    2 - Goku teleporteed to use his kemehameha close up.
    3 - Goku took Cell to the North Kai's planet. Poor blue bugger.
    Goku also used I.T at least once to dogde some of Kid Buu's attacks on the planet of the Kais.

    Since when can DB characters only fly in a straight line?
    ...Oh! You think I.T. is point to point! Well, even though that's true, it can be controlled finely. See, Goku needs a chi source to orient himself, but he doesn't really need to I.T. to right next to that chi. He uses it as a reference point for navigation. That's why he can go behind Cell, in front of Cell, away from K. Buu, an a whole bunch of other places.
    BUT, can he IT his fist to your face with the impact of a punch? THAT is what I was getting at. It is a means of transportation and not his actual physical movement. As in, he can IT past walls, but by doing so doesn't put a hole in said wall. When you get down to hand-to-hand combat, IT will help maneuver, but will it help him attack?
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  8. #58
    Senior Member TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stu View Post
    But Goku still needs more time to recuperate than Supes.
    That was my point.
    And my point is that, because I.T. is a load faster than
    Superman, Goku will be recuperating far enough away that by the time Supes can
    reach him, he'll be ready to fight again.
    Yes, but it would all depend on where they were fighting, what universe,
    wouldn't it. Now if it was neutral ground then the run-and-heal argument
    wouldn't work so well in favour of Goku.
    What "neutral ground?" Explain yourself.
    Here's what I remember:
    - He IT'd above Cell and then threatended to use a Kamehameha.
    - When Cell had become a living bomb and was about to explode, he transported
    Cell away.
    - What was the third?
    My brother, the resdident DB(Z)(GT) continuity expert, gave me that figure. I
    think he explained it above.
    Now even in these two instances it's not the speed of IT that is
    being used as a strategy but the ability transport distances. Again I say IT's
    speed would not prove useful as a weapon, eg. IT is not controlled travelling
    at high speed's unlike where Superman actually can change direction while
    flying, etc.
    No, it is fast. That's good for long distances, true, but that's because Goku
    wouldn't want to spend months travelling to planets when he could get there in
    under a second. I think TA's argument about I.T.'s manueverability is decent,
    too. The chi source needed is for navigation. Goku doesn't actually have to
    teleport to right next to the chi. The chi source is to Goku's I.T. as the
    North Star is to stellar navigation. And the fact that it doesn't change
    direction mid-transmission matters little; wit its tremendous speed advantage,
    several ITs can be made in quick succession.
    1. Yes, but not always.
    2. Again not always.
    Look I could argue the above points, and make many more, but you're nitpicking
    my points, and changing the direction of my point, which was that he doesn't
    use up his stored energy at a fast pace.
    1 - Always. The sun is a yellow star. Space is where the stars are.
    2 - Most of the time, though.
    3 - I'm notnitpicking, I'm attacking your arguments. You said that he could
    live wihtout the sun's light (and maintain his energy levels) and for support
    you cited that he's been in space. I said that since there are stars in space,
    he is still getting light from yellow stars, and so it has no relevance to his
    ability to live and fight without said yellow stars' light. The window bit was
    just the cherry on top.
    Again, see my point above, technically, Goku can IT to a point but not
    chnage direction to compensate for a foe movements, etc.
    LIke I said above, multiple ITs could be employed. This means that while each
    IT is straight-line, the overall movement is as flexible as need be.
    Good question, I don't know but can check on his speed...
    Please do.
    Goku might do that, but I don't thinbk Supes has the power to do that.
    (Modern Age Superman that is).
    Yes. I fit was truly a fight for the universe(s) with limited time, it would
    be like Goku to sacrifice himself and one planet for all of existence. Kinda a
    boring scenario, though.
    You're not listening to what I'm saying. I actually think I'm agreeing
    with you on this - if you throw a punch, can you vary the intensity of
    that punch? Or if you blow out a candle, can you vary the strength with which
    you blow. This is my point, that Superman can do the same but just on a
    different level.
    I didn't contest that. What I contested was the assertion that Superman has
    hordes of power that we've not yet seen that he stored up like a battery. If
    you want to talk about his maximum power output, you must use the greatest
    output(s) observed, not arguents that there's more we haven't seen. I know
    power can be varied, but I dont believe that SUperman has extra power
    beyond the maximum observed since there's no evidence for it.
    If you punch a brick wall enough times with your bare knuckles, it will
    crack.
    No, your hand will crack first, I guarantee it. Besides, the brick wall is an
    idiotic analogy since it can't fight back. Goku will retaliate.
    I wasn't worried aboout the classification of what makes a planet, but
    rather the scale of attack it would take to destroy something that size.
    I am well aware of Roshi blowing up the Moon (but chose the Gohan example). No,
    no, no, planets are not nothing. That's my point, and where the writers got it
    wrong (but hey, whatever) if Roshi could destroy a planet-like body with that
    low power level, just think about all those stray blasts of Freiza's on Namek,
    or Cells, or Buu's. Frieza purposely unleashed a massive blast to destroy Namek
    but it didn't work. So how could Roshi do it so easily where his blast still
    had to travel that distance to the moon.
    1 - If planets are not just "nothings" in the sceme of DB, then the powers of
    the characters in the franchise are just that much more impressive.
    2 - I would think that Frieza, (at that time) being the strongest thing in the
    universe, would have had a bit more control over his attacks than Roshi. DO
    try to remember, too, that Namek had ten times Earth's gravity and so ten times
    Earth's mass. It's a much bigger planet. Cell seemed like the smartest
    villain ever in the series, and I'd bet he had a way of controlling his own
    attacks. Buu did destroy the planet eventually, right? Applicable to all
    three (and other) villains is how the stray attacks impacted. All the planet
    killing attacks we see are aimed roughly perpendicular to the ground, straight
    through the center of the planet. Stray blasts would almost always hit the
    ground at an angle. That might have something to do with it. Again, though,
    it was observed that the stray attacks didn't kill planets but that deliberate
    attampt to do so did, and so this is fact.
    3 - It doesn't matter if the "writers got it wrong." It was observed, so it
    had to have happened. Do I really have to keep explaining this idea?
    We agree then FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=0", Superman would be outmatched
    in (physical power) against a post-GT Goku.
    Yes, shamefully so. I am saying that he is also outclassed by post-Buu Goku,
    just less so. Actually, though he isn't as good a fighter, Gohan would be
    stronger than Goku post-Buu. Just a little fun note.
    Right, well you said you would like to know more about this Superman? So
    I elaborated for you... Think of it as hybernation then.
    Interesting, if typical of comics. The bears will become jealous when they
    learn of Superman's hibernation prowess, though. We'd better keep an eye out
    for 'em.
    Yes, well I mentioned it because it starts to show how he could survive
    in the sun for that long with no need for food, etc. though I could go on if
    you like...
    In the sun. It doesn't sount because Superman seems to be able to withstand
    anything sunny. It has no consequence other than a potential power-up.
    Besides. I don't think modern day Supes has that ability.
    Well, I just thought I'd point it out.
    Elaborate further...
    The solar flare (tayoken) technique blinds opponents by manipulating and
    magnifying the sun's light (and it's other radiation). It probably wouldn't
    work too well on Superman 'cause he rooms with the sun.
    Ok, just consulted some Superman guys and the general (sort of)
    consensus is that Supes' maximum speed is between 300,000,000 mph - 99% Speed
    of light, and 30,000 mph when running.
    Though when he is in the atmosphere he could be slower at 60,000 mph.
    Okay. Let me do this piecemiel. The speed of light ("c") is 299,792,458 m/s
    (meters per second). This comes out to 107,987,547 km/h (kilometers per hour)
    once you do the necessary unit conversions. This, in turn is 670,616,629.1
    mi/h (miles per hour) (1 kilometer = 0.621371192 miles). The speed of light is
    670,616,629.1 mph. This means that Superman's speed of 300,000,000 mph is not
    0.99c, but instead is about 0.447c, or around 44.7% the speed of light.
    So...Goku's IT is superluminal (faster than light) and Superman, while insanely
    fast, is comparatively crawling. Check the math when using others' figures,
    please.
    The idea that Superman zips about the atmosphere at 60,000 mph is silly. Mach
    1 ( the speed of sound) is about 700 mph a little above sea level. This means
    that Superman is supposedly travelling at Mach 85.7. If a guy flies around at
    85.7 times the speed of sound, the sonic boom should be absolutely incredible.
    Similar circumstnces apply for the claim that Superman runs at Mach 42.9.
    However, since there is also a conspicuous lack of sonic booms in the
    Dragonball franchise (and they talk at the same time, too!), I'll let this part
    go.
    Another strategy that I was reminded of was that Superman can
    [hold his] breath for much longer periods in space, and
    that combined with his speed could give him a significant advantage if he could
    get Goku into space.
    1 - We've seen Vegeta do this, even though Frieza claims otherwise. Vegeta was
    definitely in space when he blew up Arlia. The entire planet was neatly in
    view.
    2 - Why would Goku fight Superman on his terms? In a fight (or argument), one
    can simply refuse another's game and ease the conflict in a more favorable
    direction. Goku'd stay on the planet, hitting Superman with energy attacks if
    necessary.
    3 – I invalidated claims that Superman possesses superior speed above.
    Though this would also depend on whether we are talking a DBZ or DBGT
    Goku.
    Everyone knows it depends at this point. I've said so, you've said so, everybody in the thread has said so. You don't need to reiterate it each and every time you post.

    My brother would like to add that Piccolo was seen producing a nuclear sized blast in book 16 (“Tale 190: Piccolo Destroys Everything!”) of Dragonball. If he, with a puny power level of 300 or so, could produce a nuclear warhead equivalent blast, and if, as Stu claimed earlier, Superman is not invulnerable to a nuclear weapon, then any of the DBZ characters can produce enough power to do away with him. I should point out they'd still lack the necessary speed, though. TA'sSC wanted to put this in his previous post, but I am not about to let him get his sticky fingers near my keyboard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanosuke23 View Post
    BUT, can he IT his fist to your face with the impact of a punch? THAT is what I was getting at. It is a means of transportation and not his actual physical movement. As in, he can IT past walls, but by doing so doesn't put a hole in said wall. When you get down to hand-to-hand combat, IT will help maneuver, but will it help him attack?
    Um...Yes. Maneuvering is how one positions oneself favorably in order to attack, no? If Goku has such an advantage in speed (see my responses to Stu in this post), then it doesn't really matter if IT is the attack itself. He could evade and advance with such impunity that an opening for attack would present itself.
    Last edited by TheAsterisk!; 08-19-2008 at 12:52 PM.
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    Senior Member Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23's Avatar
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    But again, Superman's reaction time and speed is such that ASIDE FROM THE ACT OF TELEPORTATION Supes could equal if not exceed Goku's Punches of Variable Speed for Dramatic Effect.

    As for the strength of beam attacks, etc., that alone doesn't measure a person's overall PL.

    Really though, this is getting more than a little insane. Besides, in a fight for their respective universes they'd still both join forces to beat whoever set up the fight, even if they both thought they couldn't win.

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    Senior Member TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanosuke23 View Post
    But again, Superman's reaction time and speed is such that ASIDE FROM THE ACT OF TELEPORTATION Supes could equal if not exceed Goku's Punches of Variable Speed for Dramatic Effect.
    Reaction time is how quickly your mind reacts. It doesn't matter if Superman's mind reacts quicker to an approaching fist since he lacks the physical speed and agility.
    As for the strength of beam attacks, etc., that alone doesn't measure a person's overall PL.
    I never said they did, they're just the easiest way to figure out the lower limit of a given character's power. Superpowered punches and kicks landing on superpowered opponents can't be measured. Something passive must be destroyed, like a city or a planet.
    Really though, this is getting more than a little insane.
    Quite.
    Besides, in a fight for their respective universes they'd still both join forces to beat whoever set up the fight, even if they both thought they couldn't win.
    (Wags finger.) The OP asked which would win in a fight between the two. It did not ask if they would fight in the first place. Their battling is a given in the thread.
    ...
    Though I do agree they probably wouldn't fight in the first place.
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    And my point is that, because I.T. is a load faster than
    Superman, Goku will be recuperating far enough away that by the time Supes can reach him, he'll be ready to fight again.
    Yeah, I think this point has been exausted. Let's just agree that they could both recuperate in time.

    What "neutral ground?" Explain yourself.
    Well, I meant no advantages for eithe one. Dende really.

    No, it is fast. That's good for long distances, true, but that's because Goku wouldn't want to spend months travelling to planets when he could get there in under a second. I think TA's argument about I.T.'s manueverability is decent, too. The chi source needed is for navigation. Goku doesn't actually have to teleport to right next to the chi. The chi source is to Goku's I.T. as the North Star is to stellar navigation. And the fact that it doesn't change direction mid-transmission matters little; wit its tremendous speed advantage, several ITs can be made in quick succession.
    I'm not arguing that it's not fast. I agree it's fast.
    No, I disagree, from what I've seen. It would be impossible for Goku to do multiple IT's to follow a fast moving Superman. Travelling at those speeds it would be near impossible for Goku to focus on his chi. Remember when Goku is about to transport, he focuses, finds the chi, and then transports. With a constantly moving Superman, locking onto that chi, maybe ok, but then continuing a chain of IT's would not seem possible.
    Besides from what we saw of Supreme Kai's IT, it would soon drain Goku performing constant IT's as was shown in DBZ when he couldn't transport when Goku was fighting Buu.


    1 - Always. The sun is a yellow star. Space is where the stars are.
    2 - Most of the time, though.
    3 - I'm notnitpicking, I'm attacking your arguments. You said that he could
    live wihtout the sun's light (and maintain his energy levels) and for support
    you cited that he's been in space. I said that since there are stars in space, he is still getting light from yellow stars, and so it has no relevance to his ability to live and fight without said yellow stars' light. The window bit was just the cherry on top.
    No, there are areas without yellow stars, or that are blocked from the rays. Are you telling me that no matter were you are in the universe you will always be in contact or line-of-sight of a yellow star.
    Ok, but my argument stands - he doesn't need constant access to sunlight to remain powered. Night time is a perfect example, and the reflection of the moon idea is streching it somewhat.

    LIke I said above, multiple ITs could be employed. This means that while each IT is straight-line, the overall movement is as flexible as need be.
    Not a chance is IT flexible, if it was that flexible, he would have used it constatly so as not to get hit when fighting all of his opponents. Check my arguments above regarding this, but IT is a rigid transportation technique. No where near flexible enough to follow Supes fly at very high speed. Compare it to shrowing a dart at a moving target, as soon as the dart is thrown, the target has already moved.

    Yes. I fit was truly a fight for the universe(s) with limited time, it would
    be like Goku to sacrifice himself and one planet for all of existence. Kinda a
    boring scenario, though.
    Might be a bad strategy on Goku's part though as Supes could survive and fly to another planet.

    I didn't contest that. What I contested was the assertion that Superman has hordes of power that we've not yet seen that he stored up like a battery. If you want to talk about his maximum power output, you must use the greatest output(s) observed, not arguents that there's more we haven't seen. I know power can be varied, but I dont believe that SUperman has extra power beyond the maximum observed since there's no evidence for it.
    Ok, but I never said that he did. Again you/we have to agree on maximum power ouput observed.

    No, your hand will crack first, I guarantee it. Besides, the brick wall is an
    idiotic analogy since it can't fight back. Goku will retaliate.
    Come on, that was an extreme example. Supes' hand won't break when hitting Goku, but it will do some damage, and multiply that over a period of time and my point is proved. I never said he wouldn't retaliate, but that's why we are having the speed argument - Goku's anticipation of a high speed punch.

    1 - If planets are not just "nothings" in the sceme of DB, then the powers of the characters in the franchise are just that much more impressive.
    2 - I would think that Frieza, (at that time) being the strongest thing in the universe, would have had a bit more control over his attacks than Roshi. DO try to remember, too, that Namek had ten times Earth's gravity and so ten times Earth's mass. It's a much bigger planet. Cell seemed like the smartest villain ever in the series, and I'd bet he had a way of controlling his own attacks. Buu did destroy the planet eventually, right? Applicable to all three (and other) villains is how the stray attacks impacted. All the planet killing attacks we see are aimed roughly perpendicular to the ground, straight through the center of the planet. Stray blasts would almost always hit the ground at an angle. That might have something to do with it. Again, though, it was observed that the stray attacks didn't kill planets but that deliberate attampt to do so did, and so this is fact.
    3 - It doesn't matter if the "writers got it wrong." It was observed, so it
    had to have happened. Do I really have to keep explaining this idea?
    1- Yeah, I think they got it slightly wrong there, but hey no one's perfect.
    2- No deliberate attempts did not always blow up planets (my point - they should easily have) becasue if Frieza did indeed have that extra control then that actually proves my point, that he WOULD have blown up Namek very very easily with the attack that he unleashed. Remember it was attack into the core of Namek, and should have obliterated Namek.
    I think the stray blasts at an angle is a weak argument, 1, becasue they are NOT always at an angle and 2, just because it's at an angle doesn't mean it wouldn't always have THAT much less of an effect.

    Yes, shamefully so. I am saying that he is also outclassed by post-Buu Goku, just less so. Actually, though he isn't as good a fighter, Gohan would be stronger than Goku post-Buu. Just a little fun note.
    You know it's weird, but the more I study this scenario, the more I think Supes might actually have a chance of winning. Remember Supes almost never fights at his maximum no holds bared. It would be quite something to seem an all out fight.

    Interesting, if typical of comics. The bears will become jealous when they
    learn of Superman's hibernation prowess, though. We'd better keep an eye out for 'em.
    The hybernation comment was just my guess - I'm not sure how he was able to live that long, but who knows with a constant charge from the sun.

    In the sun. It doesn't sount because Superman seems to be able to withstand anything sunny. It has no consequence other than a potential power-up.
    I'm not sure what you mean by this comment, could you explain further.

    The solar flare (tayoken) technique blinds opponents by manipulating and
    magnifying the sun's light (and it's other radiation). It probably wouldn't
    work too well on Superman 'cause he rooms with the sun.
    Yeah thought you meant using it as a technique against Supes.

    Okay. Let me do this piecemiel. The speed of light ("c") is 299,792,458 m/s (meters per second). This comes out to 107,987,547 km/h (kilometers per hour) once you do the necessary unit conversions. This, in turn is 670,616,629.1 mi/h (miles per hour) (1 kilometer = 0.621371192 miles). The speed of light is 670,616,629.1 mph. This means that Superman's speed of 300,000,000 mph is not 0.99c, but instead is about 0.447c, or around 44.7% the speed of light.
    I'll take your word on that. OK, try this: from 50% - 99% of speed of light is around where his speed is. Though I think it's more around the 99% side.

    So...Goku's IT is superluminal (faster than light) and Superman, while insanely fast, is comparatively crawling. Check the math when using others' figures, please.
    What speed is IT suppose to be?

    The idea that Superman zips about the atmosphere at 60,000 mph is silly. Mach 1 ( the speed of sound) is about 700 mph a little above sea level. This means that Superman is supposedly travelling at Mach 85.7. If a guy flies around at 85.7 times the speed of sound, the sonic boom should be absolutely incredible.
    Similar circumstnces apply for the claim that Superman runs at Mach 42.9.
    However, since there is also a conspicuous lack of sonic booms in the
    Dragonball franchise (and they talk at the same time, too!), I'll let this part go.
    No, it's not silly because while he can travel that fast, and (sometimes does) he does not travel that fast when he doesn't need to. Superman hardley ever runs.
    The Flash family on the other hand do run at high those high speeds, but have a field that protects their surroundings, Superman doesn't have that field, as far as I know.

    1 - We've seen Vegeta do this, even though Frieza claims otherwise. Vegeta was definitely in space when he blew up Arlia. The entire planet was neatly in view.
    2 - Why would Goku fight Superman on his terms? In a fight (or argument), one can simply refuse another's game and ease the conflict in a more favorable direction. Goku'd stay on the planet, hitting Superman with energy attacks if necessary.
    3 – I invalidated claims that Superman possesses superior speed above.
    1 - Yes, but Superman would have the advantage here, I'm not saying that Goku can't fight in space, but that Superman would have a big advantage.
    2 - And why would Superman stay on the planet and fight on Goku's terms... - let's not play this out too much, I'm merely arguing the different scenarios if they actually happened, not what scenarios would take place, or in what order. Oh, and like you said Superman would fight back and dodge the energy attacks, he's not a rag doll you know.
    3 - No you didn't, you should really rethink this IT argument. I enjoy the DBZ stuff as well, and I was for a Goku win, so I don't think I'm really biased one way or the other but I just don't see it possible for IT to be used as a constant transport method. It's IT not Constant Transmission. For example, when Goku, had It'd Superman could be on him in a Flash, and Goku would still need to concentrate before he IT'd again.

    Everyone knows it depends at this point. I've said so, you've said so, everybody in the thread has said so. You don't need to reiterate it each and every time you post.
    As you wish.

    My brother would like to add that Piccolo was seen producing a nuclear sized blast in book 16 (“Tale 190: Piccolo Destroys Everything!”) of Dragonball. If he, with a puny power level of 300 or so, could produce a nuclear warhead equivalent blast, and if, as Stu claimed earlier, Superman is not invulnerable to a nuclear weapon, then any of the DBZ characters can produce enough power to do away with him. I should point out they'd still lack the necessary speed, though. TA'sSC wanted to put this in his previous post, but I am not about to let him get his sticky fingers near my keyboard.
    Again, I think was an inconsistency in the writing. But this is understandable in the DB to DBZ transition.
    Then their physical attack would be so out of proportion to their physical attack.

    Um...Yes. Maneuvering is how one positions oneself favorably in order to attack, no? If Goku has such an advantage in speed (see my responses to Stu in this post), then it doesn't really matter if IT is the attack itself. He could evade and advance with such impunity that an opening for attack would present itself.
    Remember, those seconds of concentration that it takes to IT is all that Supes needs to take advantage of IT. Those few secs are also why IT would not work.

    Man, I think that's my longest post ever on the internet!

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    But again, Superman's reaction time and speed is such that ASIDE FROM THE ACT OF TELEPORTATION Supes could equal if not exceed Goku's Punches of Variable Speed for Dramatic Effect.
    I agree that Supes' reaction time is just so much faster than Goku's. And we see what a crucial role this played in the battle against Cell.

    Really though, this is getting more than a little insane. Besides, in a fight for their respective universes they'd still both join forces to beat whoever set up the fight, even if they both thought they couldn't win.

    It seems though that most of the debate has turned to how effective Goku's IT is, and what he can and can't do with it.
    Last edited by Stu; 08-19-2008 at 02:15 PM.

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    Senior Member TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk!'s Avatar
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    Firstly, do you know where the "EDIT" button is? If so, use it. If not, I'll be glad to show you. I'm sick of you double and triple posting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stu View Post
    Yeah, I think this point has been exausted. Let's just agree that they could both recuperate in time.
    No. Goku has a tremendous speed adavantage. If Goku runs to heal, it will take Superman so long to reach him he'll be ready to fight by then. If Superman tries to run, Goku will easily catch. See the calculations concerning IT and Superman's supposed top speed of 0.447c.
    Well, I meant no advantages for eithe one. Dende really.
    Sorry. I thought you literally meant unaffiliated territory. No sidekicks and/or assistance is reasonable.
    I'm not arguing that it's not fast. I agree it's fast.
    No, I disagree, from what I've seen. It would be impossible for Goku to do multiple IT's to follow a fast moving Superman. Travelling at those speeds it would be near impossible for Goku to focus on his chi. Remember when Goku is about to transport, he focuses, finds the chi, and then transports. With a constantly moving Superman, locking onto that chi, maybe ok, but then continuing a chain of IT's would not seem possible.
    He focuses when the chi is distant. Seeing the person helps in sensing chi. If Goku and Superman are fighting, they'll see each other. Goku didn't have to focus for a minute when he used in on Cell, remember? A chain of ITs would be spectacular, but not implausible.
    Besides from what we saw of Supreme Kai's IT, it would soon drain Goku performing constant IT's as was shown in DBZ when he couldn't transport when Goku was fighting Buu.
    The Supreme Kai can't even do IT or any koind of teleportation. Kibito, his version o' Mr. Popo, can teleport, but it isn't IT. Kibito can teleport anywhere whether or not there is a chi there to lock onto to. It's not IT, so it can't be used to describe IT. The Supreme Kai can only teleport after he is fused with Kibito using the potara.
    No, there are areas without yellow stars, or that are blocked from the rays. Are you telling me that no matter were you are in the universe you will always be in contact or line-of-sight of a yellow star.
    Cite when Superman was in space and a yellow star was not in view.
    Ok, but my argument stands - he doesn't need constant access to sunlight to remain powered. Night time is a perfect example, and the reflection of the moon idea is streching it somewhat.
    I didnt think the moon was a reach, but I'll leave this one be.
    Not a chance is IT flexible, if it was that flexible, he would have used it constatly so as not to get hit when fighting all of his opponents. Check my arguments above regarding this, but IT is a rigid transportation technique. No where near flexible enough to follow Supes fly at very high speed. Compare it to shrowing a dart at a moving target, as soon as the dart is thrown, the target has already moved.
    Once again, Goku needn't go where the chi is at the instant he teleports. He uses the chi as a navigational aid. If Superman is flying, the current position of his chi and his actions can be used to anticipate where he'll be in a few moments. It's like leading your fire. Leading your fire would also work with the dart, by the way.
    Might be a bad strategy on Goku's part though as Supes could survive and fly to another planet.
    I don't think you understand how much energy would be realeased to destroy a planet and scatter its mass. Every chunk of anything on the planet would have to be accelerated to at least escape velocity. Superman, or anything else for that matter, would have no chance of surviving a planet's destruction if they're on the surface or in the atmosphere.
    Ok, but I never said that he did. Again you/we have to agree on maximum power ouput observed.
    It was said, though I don't really know if you said it. We can find out minimum power output, but we'll never really know the maximum. What I mean by this is that we can tell, based on observed blasts, what they must be putting out at the least.
    Come on, that was an extreme example. Supes' hand won't break when hitting Goku, but it will do some damage, and multiply that over a period of time and my point is proved. I never said he wouldn't retaliate, but that's why we are having the speed argument - Goku's anticipation of a high speed punch.
    You didn't say "Supe's hand" and "Goku," you said "your hand" and "brick wall." It was a dumb comparison. Secondly, attacks usually don't multiply over time if they cause no damage to begin with. If it inflics no harm, there is nothing to recover from before the next try. The only way attacks build on each other is if each inflicts damage. Then, the opponent is sufferin gfrom that damage while dealing with more attacks. Superman has to be able to give Goku a booboo with each hit or each harmless hit means absolutely nothing.
    1- Yeah, I think they got it slightly wrong there, but hey no one's perfect.
    It was observed. They can blow up planets with power levels under 200.
    2- No deliberate attempts did not always blow up planets (my point - they should easily have) becasue if Frieza did indeed have that extra control then that actually proves my point, that he WOULD have blown up Namek very very easily with the attack that he unleashed. Remember it was attack into the core of Namek, and should have obliterated Namek.
    IT DID. HAVE YOU WATCHED THE ANIME OR READ THE MANGA AT ALL?
    (sighs)
    It took longer than it should have because Frieza was attacked while forming the blast. This was a failed attack, at much less than full power, that destroyed Namek.
    I think the stray blasts at an angle is a weak argument, 1, becasue they are NOT always at an angle and 2, just because it's at an angle doesn't mean it wouldn't always have THAT much less of an effect.
    IT DOESN"T MATTER WHY IT DIDN'T HAPPEN OR IF IT SHOULD HAVE! IT WAS OBSERVED! IF SOMETHING IS KNOWN TO HAVE HAPPENED, IT CANNOT BE IMPOSSIBLE. If you cannot grasp this simple idea, you have no business posting in a debate.
    I offered up the angles idea as an off hand comment. I don't need to explain why those blasts didn't kill planets, because it was observed. It is fact. It needs no proof, you imbecile!
    I would suspect they simply don't use such powerful attacks because they don't want to blow themselves up along with the planet they're standing on. Self-preservation is important.
    You know it's weird, but the more I study this scenario, the more I think Supes might actually have a chance of winning. Remember Supes almost never fights at his maximum no holds bared. It would be quite something to seem an all out fight.
    I already said this, assuming we're still on Z Goku.
    The hybernation comment was just my guess - I'm not sure how he was able to live that long, but who knows with a constant charge from the sun.
    Should I try to make you explain the mechanisms behind this as you've done with “angles?” No. That would be dishonest debating. It was observed.
    I'm not sure what you mean by this comment, could you explain further.
    He only survived under those conditions because it was a yellow star. Were he anywhere else, he could die of starvation just as...well not as easily as Goku, but just as easily as a regular person.
    Yeah thought you meant using it as a technique against Supes.
    I'd hope not.
    I'll take your word on that. OK, try this: from 50% - 99% of speed of light is around where his speed is. Though I think it's more around the 99% side.
    Do you always reject your sources when they become inconvenient? This doesn't change that Goku is faster. Seeeing as he can get across the galaxy in a few seconds, he is moving 'round at several million times the speed of light. I know I sadi “thousands” before, but after checking up on the size of the galaxy, the lil' Saiyan that could is quicker than even I thought.
    What speed is IT suppose to be?
    Several million times the speed of light.
    No, it's not silly because while he can travel that fast, and (sometimes does) he does not travel that fast when he doesn't need to. Superman hardley ever runs.
    Hey, hey! I said I'd let it go! Besides, I've said DB(Z)(GT) is silly in plenty of other threads, too.
    The Flash family on the other hand do run at high those high speeds, but have a field that protects their surroundings, Superman doesn't have that field, as far as I know.
    Flash is irrelevant.
    1 - Yes, but Superman would have the advantage here, I'm not saying that Goku can't fight in space, but that Superman would have a big advantage.
    2 - And why would Superman stay on the planet and fight on Goku's terms... - let's not play this out too much, I'm merely arguing the different scenarios if they actually happened, not what scenarios would take place, or in what order. Oh, and like you said Superman would fight back and dodge the energy attacks, he's not a rag doll you know.
    3 - No you didn't, you should really rethink this IT argument. I enjoy the DBZ stuff as well, and I was for a Goku win, so I don't think I'm really biased one way or the other but I just don't see it possible for IT to be used as a constant transport method. It's IT not Constant Transmission. For example, when Goku, had It'd Superman could be on him in a flash, and Goku would still need to concentrate before he IT'd again.
    1 – I know, which is why Goku would manipulate the fight.
    2 – Superman will have to fight Goku on the surafce or in the atmosphere. He doesn't have the power to destroy the planet and they will fight. Were their positions reversed, Goku could simply destroy the planet with Superman on it.
    3 – I did do so, but you either cannot or will not see the reasoning. Please see my “leading fire” comment earlier in my post, too.
    As you wish.
    Thank you.
    Again, I think was an inconsistency in the writing. But this is understandable in the DB to DBZ transition.
    Then their physical attack would be so out of proportion to their physical attack.
    ...No. There is no inconsistency. There isn't really even a transition. The manga is all “Dragonball,” and it's all written by one Mr. Akira Toriyama. The characters have been and are insanely powerful.
    I am curious to know how something can be out of proportion to itself.
    As for the chi attacks being stronger than the physical attacks...where have you been? The whole reason anyone cares about Roshi is because he figured out how to unleash devastating attacks using chi. If chi attacks were weaker, there'd be absolutely no ppractical reason to know or use them.
    Remember, those seconds of concentration that it takes to IT is all that Supes needs to take advantage of IT. Those few secs are also why IT would not work.
    If Goku can see 'em, there is no delay for concentration. Please see above.
    I agree that Supes' reaction time is just so much faster than Goku's. And we see what a crucial role this played in the battle against Cell.
    I dealt with this in the last post.
    It seems though that most of the debate has turned to how effective Goku's IT is, and what he can and can't do with it.
    Well, the Superman Sycophants latched onto that as if it were some sort of weakness in my argument, so I'm now defending it. I will continue to do so as long as it is challenged (or until a moderator smites us all).
    Last edited by TheAsterisk!; 08-19-2008 at 05:47 PM. Reason: clarification
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  14. #64
    Senior Member mississippibaby has a reputation beyond repute mississippibaby has a reputation beyond repute mississippibaby has a reputation beyond repute mississippibaby has a reputation beyond repute mississippibaby has a reputation beyond repute mississippibaby has a reputation beyond repute mississippibaby has a reputation beyond repute mississippibaby has a reputation beyond repute mississippibaby has a reputation beyond repute mississippibaby has a reputation beyond repute mississippibaby has a reputation beyond repute mississippibaby's Avatar
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    they have some similar qualities but i really think goku would win

  15. #65
    Member Stu is just really nice Stu is just really nice Stu is just really nice Stu is just really nice Stu's Avatar
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    Firstly, do you know where the "EDIT" button is? If so, use it. If not, I'll be glad to show you. I'm sick of you double and triple posting.
    Take it easy there Asterisk!, take it down a notch - debate remember, not a battle for the universe. Besides, I thought the post was getting a bit long, and the other poster might appreciate a shorter direct response to his post, if you don't mind, that is...

    No. Goku has a tremendous speed adavantage. If Goku runs to heal, it will take Superman so long to reach him he'll be ready to fight by then. If Superman tries to run, Goku will easily catch. See the calculations concerning IT and Superman's supposed top speed of 0.447c.
    Actually you got that wrong, if Goku runs to heal, Superman will not be able to follow him, he can't focus in on a chi - note that I am not arguing against your point here.
    Yes, Goku could catch Supes but, that would depend on where he was running to, the sun, space, etc. again, just constatly moving at high speed.

    Sorry. I thought you literally meant unaffiliated territory.
    That could also work.

    He focuses when the chi is distant. Seeing the person helps in sensing chi. If Goku and Superman are fighting, they'll see each other. Goku didn't have to focus for a minute when he used in on Cell, remember? A chain of ITs would be spectacular, but not implausible.
    Again, if Supes runs away at high speed (remember the speeds we are talking about) Goku would not be able to see Superman, and would need to focus, so making a chained IT impossible.
    Even you concede (somewhat) that a chain of IT's would be difficult to execute. Now for Superman moving at super-speed is as easy as running or throwing a punch, so clearly Supes would have an advantage.

    The Supreme Kai can't even do IT or any koind of teleportation. Kibito, his version o' Mr. Popo, can teleport, but it isn't IT. Kibito can teleport anywhere whether or not there is a chi there to lock onto to. It's not IT, so it can't be used to describe IT. The Supreme Kai can only teleport after he is fused with Kibito using the potara.
    You're right, but the point I was making is that the teleport is a drain, and would do the same with Goku.

    Cite when Superman was in space and a yellow star was not in view.
    I didnt think the moon was a reach, but I'll leave this one be.
    Are you serious... If you are I'll go check my boxes.

    Once again, Goku needn't go where the chi is at the instant he teleports. He uses the chi as a navigational aid. If Superman is flying, the current position of his chi and his actions can be used to anticipate where he'll be in a few moments. It's like leading your fire. Leading your fire would also work with the dart, by the way.
    Again, we are talking extremely high speeds here, Goku's brain would need to work at the level of 100 Super-computers to perform that kind of calculation - which it doesn't. I can understand your argument if Superman was moving at a very very very slow speed but at such high velocity - this would not be possible without somekind of computer aid. Remember, like someone else pointed out IT is point to point.

    I don't think you understand how much energy would be realeased to destroy a planet and scatter its mass. Every chunk of anything on the planet would have to be accelerated to at least escape velocity. Superman, or anything else for that matter, would have no chance of surviving a planet's destruction if they're on the surface or in the atmosphere.
    Again, this is were Superman's speed helps him.

    You didn't say "Supe's hand" and "Goku," you said "your hand" and "brick wall." It was a dumb comparison. Secondly, attacks usually don't multiply over time if they cause no damage to begin with. If it inflics no harm, there is nothing to recover from before the next try. The only way attacks build on each other is if each inflicts damage. Then, the opponent is sufferin gfrom that damage while dealing with more attacks. Superman has to be able to give Goku a booboo with each hit or each harmless hit means absolutely nothing.
    Right, so who's to say that Superman's attack would do no damage??

    It was observed. They can blow up planets with power levels under 200.
    Fair enough then. Inconsistent, but observed.

    IT DID. HAVE YOU WATCHED THE ANIME OR READ THE MANGA AT ALL?
    (sighs)
    It took longer than it should have because Frieza was attacked while forming the blast. This was a failed attack, at much less than full power, that destroyed Namek.
    Listen, before questioning my knowledge, maybe YOU should check on your own. Because you are WRONG on this. The episode is called Namek's Destruction, and I think Frieza says "It's not always the strongest that wins, but the smartest." He then proceeds to create a red coloured energy attack and throws it at the surface [not at an angle ] expecting namek to blow up, which it didn't. He was NOT attcked while doing this. So it WAS full power, and it DIDN'T destroy Namek like he clearly intended.

    IT DOESN"T MATTER WHY IT DIDN'T HAPPEN OR IF IT SHOULD HAVE! IT WAS OBSERVED! IF SOMETHING IS KNOWN TO HAVE HAPPENED, IT CANNOT BE IMPOSSIBLE. If you cannot grasp this simple idea, you have no business posting in a debate.
    I offered up the angles idea as an off hand comment. I don't need to explain why those blasts didn't kill planets, because it was observed. It is fact. It needs no proof, you imbecile!
    I would suspect they simply don't use such powerful attacks because they don't want to blow themselves up along with the planet they're standing on. Self-preservation is important.
    Don't say something doesn't matter because it is in opposition to what you say - if you do then you have absolutely no business posting ina debate. So the writers got a few things wrong, so what, doesn't mean the world will end or I enjoy DB any less.
    Imbecile!! Hmmm, now, now, unless I'm mistaken this fight is between Goku and Superman...

    I already said this, assuming we're still on Z Goku.
    Yes, with Z Goku, and he might give a GT Goku, hard time.

    Should I try to make you explain the mechanisms behind this as you've done with “angles?” No. That would be dishonest debating. It was observed.
    Look, you're becoming too defensive. I only made these comments because you commented that you would like to know more about Superman Prime (the future Superman). It had nothing to do with the current Superman debate. Even the current Superman would have trouble being that close to the sun, as it produces such extreme temperatures. While it would recharge him, he would still have to contend with the heat produced, so there is also a chance it could hurt him.

    He only survived under those conditions because it was a yellow star. Were he anywhere else, he could die of starvation just as...well not as easily as Goku, but just as easily as a regular person.
    Check my above answer.

    Do you always reject your sources when they become inconvenient? This doesn't change that Goku is faster. Seeeing as he can get across the galaxy in a few seconds, he is moving 'round at several million times the speed of light. I know I sadi “thousands” before, but after checking up on the size of the galaxy, the lil' Saiyan that could is quicker than even I thought.
    Look, you are clearly not picking up on the point that I'm making. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying that Superman's speed is 99% speed of light, whatever that is.
    By saying that IT is faster, and travels (several million times) faster than light. Then clearly Goku no longer maintains his physical form when he is transported. Like a teleport. This limits IT even further becasue he would need to retake his physical form to fight, or concentrate again. Thereby slowing him down significantly.

    Flash is irrelevant.
    Yes, Flash is irrelevent in the fight but not in terms of the point (that we were discussing) about sonic booms.

    1 – I know, which is why Goku would manipulate the fight.
    2 – Superman will have to fight Goku on the surafce or in the atmosphere. He doesn't have the power to destroy the planet and they will fight. Were their positions reversed, Goku could simply destroy the planet with Superman on it.
    3 – I did do so, but you either cannot or will not see the reasoning. Please see my “leading fire” comment earlier in my post, too.
    1 - Are you saying only Goku could manipulate the fight? That's why I said let's not debate how or where they would fight, but if each scenario actually played out.
    2 - Why would he HAVE to fight him on the surface or atmosphere? There are plenty of occasions were Superman has flown his opponnents into space to fly them into the sun or fight in space - Your reasoning is not supported by what has been observed.

    ...No. There is no inconsistency. There isn't really even a transition. The manga is all “Dragonball,” and it's all written by one Mr. Akira Toriyama. The characters have been and are insanely powerful.
    I am curious to know how something can be out of proportion to itself.
    As for the chi attacks being stronger than the physical attacks...where have you been? The whole reason anyone cares about Roshi is because he figured out how to unleash devastating attacks using chi. If chi attacks were weaker, there'd be absolutely no ppractical reason to know or use them.
    No inconsistency. Ok check the Frieza argument.
    Superman's speed is out of proportion to his strength,and so is insert charcter here/Roshi's physical vs chi attack.
    Wrong, chi attacks are a great ranged weapon.


    If Goku can see 'em, there is no delay for concentration. Please see above.
    Exactly, he can't see him.

    Well, the Superman Sycophants latched onto that as if it were some sort of weakness in my argument, so I'm now defending it. I will continue to do so as long as it is challenged (or until a moderator smites us all).
    The only (Goku) Sycophant here (no offense intended) seems to be you. While most everyone else seems to agree that IT cannot be used how you are describing it, you are the only one defending your idea.

    Let's get something straight, I do think Goku would win in the end. All I'm arguing is that Supes would give him a good go, and it would be a great fight.
    Last edited by Stu; 08-20-2008 at 10:15 AM.

  16. #66
    Senior Member TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk! has a reputation beyond repute TheAsterisk!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stu View Post
    Take it easy there Asterisk!, take it down a notch - debate remember, not a battle for the universe. Besides, I thought the post was getting a bit long, and the other poster might appreciate a shorter direct response to his post, if you don't mind, that is...
    Please don't post two or three times in a row. 'Sides, we're the only ones that still seem to care.
    Actually you got that wrong, if Goku runs to heal, Superman will not be able to follow him, he can't focus in on a chi - note that I am not arguing against your point here.
    Yes, Goku could catch Supes but, that would depend on where he was running to, the sun, space, etc. again, just constatly moving at high speed.
    Even better for me if Superman can't catch Goku at all. Goku could easily catch Superman if he just flew off at high speed, and Superman wouldn't even get to Venus heading for the sun before Goku'd catch him.
    That could also work.
    I can't think of any suitable place, though. Can you?
    Again, if Supes runs away at high speed (remember the speeds we are talking about) Goku would not be able to see Superman, and would need to focus, so making a chained IT impossible.
    1 - Goku's ITs at several mullion times the speed of light, Superman flies at juust under half the speed of light. Goku is faster.
    2 - Goku would need to concentrate for the first IT, yes, but, by leading Superman, after the first IT he would see him, and the chained ITs would be possible. The chained ITs are only for maneuvering in close, not for catching up to a fleeing opponent.
    Even you concede (somewhat) that a chain of IT's would be difficult to execute. Now for Superman moving at super-speed is as easy as running or throwing a punch, so clearly Supes would have an advantage.
    I never said chained ITs would be difficult, I said they'd be spectacular. It just means it'd be really cool to watch. Again, Goku's speed is superior. By the way, agility (ability to change directions, accerlerate, deccelerate) is far more important than raw speed in a fight. Goku has a tremendous advantage here, too.
    You're right, but the point I was making is that the teleport is a drain, and would do the same with Goku.
    No, you tried and failed to make that point. You showed an entirely different technique drained energy. It has no relevance.
    Are you serious... If you are I'll go check my boxes.
    Just cite when Superman was nowhere near a yellow star.
    Again, we are talking extremely high speeds here, Goku's brain would need to work at the level of 100 Super-computers to perform that kind of calculation - which it doesn't. I can understand your argument if Superman was moving at a very very very slow speed but at such high velocity - this would not be possible without somekind of computer aid. Remember, like someone else pointed out IT is point to point.
    I love how you pulled the supercomputer number from out of your behind and expect me to acceptit as fact. Leading fire is eay and doesn't require computers. You can do it with calculations, or you can eyeball it if you have experience. Fighter pilots have been leading fire since WWI and continue to do so to this day. Goku would just have to lead ahead further because Superman is faster than modern aircraft. The same tactic would work with your dart, by the way.
    I admitted that IT is point to point, but my chained IT argument concerns maneuverability in close, not catching up to Superman.
    Again, this is were Superman's speed helps him.
    Goku is faster. I have made that case, and it is sound.[/quote]
    Right, so who's to say that Superman's attack would do no damage??
    Supreman has less power than Saiyan-saga Vegeta (planetary destruction). His speed is about on par with Goku's (barring IT). His power isn't enough to overwhelm Goku's defenses. If he did any damage, it would be because Goku dropped his defenses.
    Fair enough then. Inconsistent, but observed.
    No, it's not inconsistent. It just means their chi attacks are far more powerful than their physical attacks.
    Listen, before questioning my knowledge, maybe YOU should check on your own. Because you are WRONG on this. The episode is called Namek's Destruction, and I think Frieza says "It's not always the strongest that wins, but the smartest." He then proceeds to create a red coloured energy attack and throws it at the surface [not at an angle ] expecting namek to blow up, which it didn't. He was NOT attcked while doing this. So it WAS full power, and it DIDN'T destroy Namek like he clearly intended.
    Well, I might be mistaken about him being interupted by an attack, but Frieza did say the planet was taking longer than he expected to explode. The angle bit was brought up because you asked why stray blasts didn't kill planets, not regarding Frieza's deliberate attempt to destroy Namek. Namek did blow up, though, if you'll try to remember. That's why there were Namekians playing golf and poker at the Cpausle Corporation.
    Imbecile!! Hmmm, now, now, unless I'm mistaken this fight is between Goku and Superman...
    I got sick of you saying, "But that's impossible!" when I brought up events that had clearly happened. Again, if it was observed, it doesn't matter how insane or seemingly impossible it was. It happened. We know stary blasts, for whatever reason, don't normally destroy planets, and we know that they can destroy planets. It doesn't matter if I can't explain why.
    Yes, with Z Goku, and he might give a GT Goku, hard time.
    Z Goku'd have a tough fight, but GT Goku would off Superman is a few minutes. That's why it'd be no fun. TOEI made him ridiculously strong even compared to other ridiculously strong characters and gave him heavy plot armor. GT Goku is a joke.
    Look, you're becoming too defensive. I only made these comments because you commented that you would like to know more about Superman Prime (the future Superman). It had nothing to do with the current Superman debate. Even the current Superman would have trouble being that close to the sun, as it produces such extreme temperatures. While it would recharge him, he would still have to contend with the heat produced, so there is also a chance it could hurt him.
    I was pointing out that since Superman was observed to have been in the sun, it must be possible, explanation or no explanation. You, though, tried to get me explain observed events (stray blasts). I shouldn't have to explain them because they were observed. THAT'S ALL.
    Check my above answer.
    I'm not disagreeing with you on this part, just adding a bit.
    Look, you are clearly not picking up on the point that I'm making. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying that Superman's speed is 99% speed of light, whatever that is.
    By saying that IT is faster, and travels (several million times) faster than light. Then clearly Goku no longer maintains his physical form when he is transported. Like a teleport. This limits IT even further becasue he would need to retake his physical form to fight, or concentrate again. Thereby slowing him down significantly.
    It hasn't slowed him down ant other time he's used in in battle; why should it htis time?
    Yes, Flash is irrelevent in the fight but not in terms of the point (that we were discussing) about sonic booms.
    I said that Z made the same mistake, so I'd let it go. They even talk to each othre when they're apparently flying at supersonic speeds, for goodness' sake. I'm thinking of it (for both series) in pretty much the same way sci-fi always has spaceships making noise. It's just a silly error the authors made.
    [/quote]1 - Are you saying only Goku could manipulate the fight? That's why I said let's not debate how or where they would fight, but if each scenario actually played out.[/quote]
    No, but if Superman's only advantage would be to go into space for an extended period. From here, he can't get to Goku, and Goku can't really get to him. It would create a stalemate.
    2 - Why would he HAVE to fight him on the surface or atmosphere? There are plenty of occasions were Superman has flown his opponnents into space to fly them into the sun or fight in space - Your reasoning is not supported by what has been observed.
    It's not that Superman would have top be there but it's the only place he could defeat Goku in. Please see my last snippet.
    If Superman tries to take the fight to space, Goku can deny him the advantage and just sit on the ground. Superman hasn't the power to destroy planets, so it becomes a stalemate. If they fight on the ground or in the atmosphere, then Goku would eventually win, though there'd be one heck of a mess afterwards.
    No inconsistency. Ok check the Frieza argument.
    I've resolved that as best I can. Sorry.
    Superman's speed is out of proportion to his strength,and so is insert charcter here/Roshi's physical vs chi attack.
    Wrong, chi attacks are a great ranged weapon.
    Chi attacks are stronger, yes. Why do you think that's an inconsistency? If Superman can have unbalanced abilities, why can't others have unbalanced abilities?
    Exactly, he can't see him.
    Chained ITs are only for close-in maneuvering. He'd use a regular IT to get to him from greater distances.
    The only (Goku) Sycophant here (no offense intended) seems to be you. While most everyone else seems to agree that IT cannot be used how you are describing it, you are the only one defending your idea.
    Apparently, you've misunderstood what the chained ITs were to be used for. I think I've explained it pretty plainly up above.
    Let's get something straight, I do think Goku would win in the end. All I'm arguing is that Supes would give him a good go, and it would be a great fight.
    That is just about the one big thing we agree on.

    I don't think my arguments can do any more to convince you, so this'll be my last post on the subject. Sorry if I got personal a couple of times; I really shouldn't have. You've given me a pretty fun debate. Thanks.
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  17. #67
    Senior Member Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23 has a reputation beyond repute Sanosuke23's Avatar
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    Oh I still care, Mavericker sidetracked me last night after work but I promise to return to this inanity at my earliest convenience.

  18. #68
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    It depends I don't know if Superman can blow up into pieces... Goku is much faster and stronger but the actual conflict is immunity and endurance

  19. #69
    Member Stu is just really nice Stu is just really nice Stu is just really nice Stu is just really nice Stu's Avatar
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    Please don't post two or three times in a row. 'Sides, we're the only ones that still seem to care.
    Yeah, I guess no ones immune to internet-ego-syndrome.
    I have removed quite a bit of irrelevent stuff, as th epost was getting rediculous.

    I never said chained ITs would be difficult, I said they'd be spectacular. It just means it'd be really cool to watch. Again, Goku's speed is superior. By the way, agility (ability to change directions, accerlerate, deccelerate) is far more important than raw speed in a fight. Goku has a tremendous advantage here, too.
    In fact you're way off on that, the way that the two fly are competely different - Goku uses his chi, while Superman has a natiral ability. I don't think Goku would have an advantage in terms of agility.

    Just cite when Superman was nowhere near a yellow star.
    Any number of comic issues.

    I love how you pulled the supercomputer number from out of your behind and expect me to acceptit as fact. Leading fire is eay and doesn't require computers. You can do it with calculations, or you can eyeball it if you have experience. Fighter pilots have been leading fire since WWI and continue to do so to this day. Goku would just have to lead ahead further because Superman is faster than modern aircraft. The same tactic would work with your dart, by the way.
    Listen man, you can't just keep ignoring facts here. We are NOT talking about WWI fighter pilots, we are not talking about modern aircraft. We ARE talking about 50% speed of light.
    So are you really suggesting that the following wouldn't require computer type calculations to achieve:
    Superman is travelling at 50% speed of light, Goku homes in on his chi source (travelling at 50% speed of light). Right, accepted.
    NOW (the impossible part), Goku makes a calculation EXACTLY were Superman will be in 2-3 seconds (2-3 seconds is around how long it takes to IT from point to point) while Superman is still travelling at 50% Speed of light??!

    There are several reasons why Goku couldn't do this:
    1- You yourself admit that IT is point to point. So for Goku to IT to a point in space were Superman will be, he would have to be able to IT to a point 299,792,458m away from a chi source, because that is the distance Superman would cover in 2 seconds if travelling at 50% speed of light.
    2 - Goku's brain could not perform these calculations - even if he got around point 1.
    3 - Goku could not anticipate what Superman would do, remember if Superman varies his course just a fraction, or changes his speed just a fraction, Goku's IT would be way off. With this in mind it would not be possible.

    I admitted that IT is point to point, but my chained IT argument concerns maneuverability in close, not catching up to Superman.
    They're one and the same I'm afraid, you need to catch someone first before you can get close to them.

    Goku is faster. I have made that case, and it is sound.
    No, only Goku's IT is faster, NOT his flying speed.

    Supreman has less power than Saiyan-saga Vegeta (planetary destruction). His speed is about on par with Goku's (barring IT). His power isn't enough to overwhelm Goku's defenses. If he did any damage, it would be because Goku dropped his defenses.
    Are you telling me that Goku can travel at 50-99% speed of light?
    I never said his power was.
    You're telling me that a punch thrown while travelling at 20% speed of light will have no affect? If it hasn't been observed you can't say that.
    You seem so concerend (or bias) with defending Goku that you ignore/forget that I agree with you on alot of points.

    Well, I might be mistaken about him being interupted by an attack, but Frieza did say the planet was taking longer than he expected to explode. The angle bit was brought up because you asked why stray blasts didn't kill planets, not regarding Frieza's deliberate attempt to destroy Namek. Namek did blow up, though, if you'll try to remember. That's why there were Namekians playing golf and poker at the Cpausle Corporation.
    Look at how easy Roshi destoyed the moon, there's NO way Roshi's blast could be even anywhere NEAR to the power of Frieza's blast. With that in mind, Namek should have been space dust, and not taken an extra 5 minutes to blow up.
    You yourself made the point that Frieza was so in control of his powers that he should EASILY have been able to blow up Namek.

    It hasn't slowed him down ant other time he's used in in battle; why should it htis time?
    It will hinder in the scenario we are painting, and the reason it hasn't hindered him before is because he has never used it in the way we are suggesting.

    I said that Z made the same mistake, so I'd let it go. They even talk to each othre when they're apparently flying at supersonic speeds, for goodness' sake. I'm thinking of it (for both series) in pretty much the same way sci-fi always has spaceships making noise. It's just a silly error the authors made.
    Actually that is what Flash's protective shield is for, it was taken into account. I will check for you, but I think I have witnessed a few times were Superman does leave behind a sonic boom - check out the latest Superman Returns movie, as it happens in there.

    No, but if Superman's only advantage would be to go into space for an extended period. From here, he can't get to Goku, and Goku can't really get to him. It would create a stalemate.
    I agree. Not sure it would be his only advantage though.

    It's not that Superman would have top be there but it's the only place he could defeat Goku in. Please see my last snippet.
    If Superman tries to take the fight to space, Goku can deny him the advantage and just sit on the ground. Superman hasn't the power to destroy planets, so it becomes a stalemate. If they fight on the ground or in the atmosphere, then Goku would eventually win, though there'd be one heck of a mess afterwards.
    Supes still has significant speed in the atmosphere. Though again, let's argue the scenario's, not what scenarios would take place - though if you would like, this would be intersting to.

    Chi attacks are stronger, yes. Why do you think that's an inconsistency? If Superman can have unbalanced abilities, why can't others have unbalanced abilities?
    You missed my point, I have argued that the chi attack of early Dragonball (Roshi) and later Dragonball (Frieza) is inconsistent.
    Sure, everyone can have unbalanced abilities - but Goku's speed/chi attack is not unbalanced though.

    Chained ITs are only for close-in maneuvering. He'd use a regular IT to get to him from greater distances.
    This makes no sense. Again, (1) he would have to catch Superman first, (2) you can't use IT to throw an instant punch (you dematerialize when IT'ing).

    That is just about the one big thing we agree on.
    No, I think we agree on most things, we just seem to differ (1) that there has been some inconsistency in chi powers in DB, and (2) that IT could be used effectively as a form of super speed in a battle scenario (for transporting, or going on holiday 's great).

    I don't think my arguments can do any more to convince you, so this'll be my last post on the subject. Sorry if I got personal a couple of times; I really shouldn't have. You've given me a pretty fun debate. Thanks.
    Uuum, but your IT argument doesn't hold up at all - see above.
    Yeah, was interesting though. See ya.
    Last edited by Stu; 08-21-2008 at 03:05 PM.

  20. #70
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    wasnt goku able to move at the speed of light after training with kamizama?

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    Superman has one huge drawback
    Kryptonite
    While Goku has none

    easy win for goku IMO
    !!! Dont let my egg die !!!
    click it

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    Quote Originally Posted by mousshnida View Post
    Superman has one huge drawback
    Kryptonite
    While Goku has none

    easy win for goku IMO
    Only problem with that is that Kryptonite is a very rare item, and not easy to come by at all. Also it is considered a weapon, and we are talking neutral ground.
    If you want to bring weapons in to it then Superman could utilise weapons as well like Diana's (Wonder Woman) sword. It is magic based, and I suspect Goku is just as vunerable to magic as Superman - Diana's sword can cut even Superman because it is magic based.

    I agree though Goku would would in a straight-up punching match.

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    I think Goku would totally win. Superman sucks, in my view
    I stare to the madness, I see just my pain,
    it staring me back, drowning me in the sadness...

    My tears flow, blinding me, just for vain,
    for no reason, my mind falling to the emptiness...

    I stare in the mirror, once again,
    I see my eyes, I see mirrors of madness...



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    Goku all the way.I mean super guy has no chances.Goku can power up more then i can eat a day.And i eat a lot. O_o;;;
    My job?Well being drunk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aka Ari Kurosaki View Post
    OR SRSLY?
    If a rock can kill you,I wouldn't rely on him.

    Made for AF audience:


    Don't flame me,it has something to do with the thread.
    this one is nice....
    ^_^
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