Animal Rights (vs Human Rights)

[Ravenblade]

I happened to be watching TV the other day, and during the adverts I came across a commercial by a charity asking for money in order to help African donkeys. I found this...odd, to say the least, as Africa is so often associated with human suffering and yet here was this charity providing water to donkeys in communities that no doubt had their fair share of impoverished people.

So, my question is - is it justified to give such a charity money?

The charity itself made a good point in that donkeys are fundamental to development of such regions, and therefore healthy donkeys provide for faster development - but surely that pails into insignificance when one considers water shortages suffered by people?

Is it justified then, to give money to any animal charities when we all know full well that we could give money to charities that deal with abused /dying people?

So I guess you can go on from there and discuss animal rights vs human rights - If you were presented with an actual dying person and an actual dying kitten, which would you choose? I would go with the person, but I have found that not everyone thinks that way.

[Kobarokawa-San]

has an human more rights than an animal??

i think i would choose the person... why? maybe because is from my own species...

but... i don´t know.. an animal? why should i choose the animal instead the person?? it´s difficult...

there is a very deep ethical discussion to make about this...

PS: 1º to post hehehe

[Pix the Skull Kid]

Animals have just as much right to be here as we do, if not more. Animals were here long before humans walked the earth.

I love it when I see animal charities. I cry every time I see a commercial about saving abandoned and or abused animals. It's just sad how a lot of times people think of themselves more than they think of the sweet, innocent animals surrounding them. We both have the survival of the fittist instinct, basically. Wild animals will kill to stay alive and protect themselves, as well as get food. At one point and time and in some ways we humans still do the exact same thing.

We are all animals, Humans too. No animal should be singled out of getting the help and care it needs, just like people. If I could I'd adopt every homeless animal I saw. One look in their eyes makes me melt. I can see an animals past pain just by looking in their eyes and thinking that they're locked up in a cage like that brings tears to my eyes. Just like if I could I'd give money to every homeless person I saw.

Animals and people are equal. We are all family. I know some people think that animals don't even have souls, which is outrageous. Animals were here before people, and yet we find it perfectly okay that we're destroying a lot of gorgeous creatures natural environments, and because of that, they're running around homeless and starving. Could you blame them? If our homes were being demolished, the same thing would happen to us.

We have already seen life at a human perspective. It would be nice if humans could try to see through an animals.

[Ravenblade]

I must say, I don't think I have ever been close enough to an animal to feel anything like what you're describing, but I think I understand.

Im not really sure why I feel humans are more important...I suspect its rooted in experiences in China were you would see things like legless children pulling themselves along trains on skateboards while asking for money.

I have to say, I kinda believe that given most people do not value animals as they do people (especially poorer people who have to concern themselves more with survival) that the best way to eradicate suffering for both people and animals is to save humans first...

What do you think?

[Sanosuke23]

It's a private charity, someone wants to donate they're justified solely by the fact that it's their money. Who am I to judge their spending habits?

Would I donate to this cause? No, as I am not African and American problems have a more immediate effect on my life.

If they were American donkeys I may think differently. However, if I had money to spare for charities it would probably go to job opportunity programs and animal programs in that order, only because a working human is more productive.

[Kobarokawa-San]

Animals have just as much right to be here as we do, if not more. Animals were here long before humans walked the earth.

I love it when I see animal charities. I cry every time I see a commercial about saving abandoned and or abused animals. It's just sad how a lot of times people think of themselves more than they think of the sweet, innocent animals surrounding them. We both have the survival of the fittist instinct, basically. Wild animals will kill to stay alive and protect themselves, as well as get food. At one point and time and in some ways we humans still do the exact same thing.

We are all animals, Humans too. No animal should be singled out of getting the help and care it needs, just like people. If I could I'd adopt every homeless animal I saw. One look in their eyes makes me melt. I can see an animals past pain just by looking in their eyes and thinking that they're locked up in a cage like that brings tears to my eyes. Just like if I could I'd give money to every homeless person I saw.

Animals and people are equal. We are all family. I know some people think that animals don't even have souls, which is outrageous. Animals were here before people, and yet we find it perfectly okay that we're destroying a lot of gorgeous creatures natural environments, and because of that, they're running around homeless and starving. Could you blame them? If our homes were being demolished, the same thing would happen to us.

We have already seen life at a human perspective. It would be nice if humans could try to see through an animals.

i understand what you wanna say.. i love animals too!! in my grandparents house we have a lot of dogs we caught on the street and we feed all the cats of the surroundings.. but would you choose an animal instead of a person? if you had only one to choose

[Oracle]

i understand what you wanna say.. i love animals too!! in my grandparents house we have a lot of dogs we caught on the street and we feed all the cats of the surroundings.. but would you choose an animal instead of a person? if you had only one to choose

It depends who the person is.


If I had any money, I'd give it to animal charities.

Why? Let me tell you this, Is the human race going to be extinct any time soon? I don't think so. But animals, there's alot of different types of animals that are going to be extinct if we keep this up.

[Pix the Skull Kid]

I must say, I don't think I have ever been close enough to an animal to feel anything like what you're describing, but I think I understand.

Im not really sure why I feel humans are more important...I suspect its rooted in experiences in China were you would see things like legless children pulling themselves along trains on skateboards while asking for money.

I have to say, I kinda believe that given most people do not value animals as they do people (especially poorer people who have to concern themselves more with survival) that the best way to eradicate suffering for both people and animals is to save humans first...

What do you think?

I know exactly what point to make on this one.

Animals and humans feed off of eachother. Tis the mere balance of life! Destroying a single species of animal takes away a part of that balance. Say, put cats in an area infested by mice. The mice go away, the cats start getting starving. Get rid of the cats, the mice come back to overpopulation. You see?

The population of humans is large and out of control. We're destroying an animals natural environment. Eventually, if our race gets so overpopulated to the point where all land has nothing but cities and roads and such, all animals will stop existing. We will drive the planets beautiful creatures to extiction. If we want to make the human race so successful, saving endangered species wont help. Their environment will be destroyed once again, and even national parks will have to come down.

Humans population is growing too fast and animals not fast enough. Eventually we will destroy the habitat of the animals keeping the entire balance of life togeather, and with that, we will have killed ourselves. If we keep growing, there will be no more room for farms. No more room for wildlife. We will have fished our oceans dry, hunted the forests clean, and we cant even survive without tree's. They make our air!

Without animals, humans cant exist. We live off some animals for survival and we live off ALL animals to keep the lifes balance. With no life balance, no life can exist at all. In my mind animals have even more rights to the planet than humans. We're killing them, starving them, torturing them, and destroying their homes while we live here thinking only for ourselves. you cant tell me there's nothing wrong with that.

[Black Waltz No.3]

I know exactly what point to make on this one.

Animals and humans feed off of eachother. Tis the mere balance of life! Destroying a single species of animal takes away a part of that balance. Say, put cats in an area infested by mice. The mice go away, the cats start getting starving. Get rid of the cats, the mice come back to overpopulation. You see?

The population of humans is large and out of control. We're destroying an animals natural environment. Eventually, if our race gets so overpopulated to the point where all land has nothing but cities and roads and such, all animals will stop existing. We will drive the planets beautiful creatures to extiction. If we want to make the human race so successful, saving endangered species wont help. Their environment will be destroyed once again, and even national parks will have to come down.

Humans population is growing too fast and animals not fast enough. Eventually we will destroy the habitat of the animals keeping the entire balance of life togeather, and with that, we will have killed ourselves. If we keep growing, there will be no more room for farms. No more room for wildlife. We will have fished our oceans dry, hunted the forests clean, and we cant even survive without tree's. They make our air!

Without animals, humans cant exist. We live off some animals for survival and we live off ALL animals to keep the lifes balance. With no life balance, no life can exist at all. In my mind animals have even more rights to the planet than humans. We're killing them, starving them, torturing them, and destroying their homes while we live here thinking only for ourselves. you cant tell me there's nothing wrong with that.

All of the world is a delicate balance of animals, in the past, Humans wiped out the Dodo,though they probably would of gone extinct sometime later...
We killed the tasmanian tiger, the American Mammoth, and many other wonderfull creatures that our childrens children will never get to see.

[Kobarokawa-San]

I know exactly what point to make on this one.

Animals and humans feed off of eachother. Tis the mere balance of life! Destroying a single species of animal takes away a part of that balance. Say, put cats in an area infested by mice. The mice go away, the cats start getting starving. Get rid of the cats, the mice come back to overpopulation. You see?

The population of humans is large and out of control. We're destroying an animals natural environment. Eventually, if our race gets so overpopulated to the point where all land has nothing but cities and roads and such, all animals will stop existing. We will drive the planets beautiful creatures to extiction. If we want to make the human race so successful, saving endangered species wont help. Their environment will be destroyed once again, and even national parks will have to come down.

Humans population is growing too fast and animals not fast enough. Eventually we will destroy the habitat of the animals keeping the entire balance of life togeather, and with that, we will have killed ourselves. If we keep growing, there will be no more room for farms. No more room for wildlife. We will have fished our oceans dry, hunted the forests clean, and we cant even survive without tree's. They make our air!

Without animals, humans cant exist. We live off some animals for survival and we live off ALL animals to keep the lifes balance. With no life balance, no life can exist at all. In my mind animals have even more rights to the planet than humans. We're killing them, starving them, torturing them, and destroying their homes while we live here thinking only for ourselves. you cant tell me there's nothing wrong with that.

you are right!! i didn´t thought about that..
we are here to stay for a very long time but because that we are taking from their own home lot of species with any kind of respect for them...

they have more rights because they are fragile than we.. look to the example of old people, children or even women.. why do they have more rights or why they are treated differently? so should be animals to just like they were our little children.. i have a iguana and i love him so much

[Pix the Skull Kid]

you are right!! i didn´t thought about that..
we are here to stay for a very long time but because that we are taking from their own home lot of species with any kind of respect for them...

they have more rights because they are fragile than we.. look to the example of old people, children or even women.. why do they have more rights or why they are treated differently? so should be animals to just like they were our little children.. i have a iguana and i love him so much

Yay someone agree's with me and a two thumbs up on Black Waltz's post. We killed off such wonderful and amazing creatures that no one will ever be able to see, and many may even love to! But now we just stick by the fact that the use to exist.. And look at bones and pictures instead of the real thing.. Makes me wonder if eventually people will start disbelieving any of the extinct animals even ever existed.

[Kobarokawa-San]

Yay someone agree's with me and a two thumbs up on Black Waltz's post. We killed off such wonderful and amazing creatures that no one will ever be able to see, and many may even love to! But now we just stick by the fact that the use to exist.. And look at bones and pictures instead of the real thing.. Makes me wonder if eventually people will start disbelieving any of the extinct animals even ever existed.

someday the extinct animals will be remembered as tales or myths..

our main problem is that we only live for the present without planning the future and forgetting our past... and animals are our first victim because it´s easy to kill them or destroy their habitat to make them run away..
dinosaurs were killed by natural causes but if they were still alive i am sure we will handle to kill them all

[Oracle]

someday the extinct animals will be remembered as tales or myths..

our main problem is that we only live for the present without planning the future and forgetting our past... and animals are our first victim because it´s easy to kill them or destroy their habitat to make them run away..
dinosaurs were killed by natural causes but if they were still alive i am sure we will handle to kill them all

If Dinosaurs were still alive, the human race would get killed off.

Last time I checked, Dinosaur > Caveman

But, I agree with you.

[Pix the Skull Kid]

someday the extinct animals will be remembered as tales or myths..

our main problem is that we only live for the present without planning the future and forgetting our past... and animals are our first victim because it´s easy to kill them or destroy their habitat to make them run away..
dinosaurs were killed by natural causes but if they were still alive i am sure we will handle to kill them all

Which is why animals should have more rights. Nature is delecate, especially when you add humans to the mix because then its nothing but destroy destroy destroy and animals running in fear when they could just as easily look to us for help as their hero's. It's indeed a sad, sad thing..

[Ravenblade]

So we should therefore prioritise a species' importance by how few of them remain in the world? So that certain types of whales are more important than people etc.

I do admit that there is a delicate balance, but it is very difficult politically for anything to be done about it now. By advancing to a point of everyone having computers, cars, a right to education, etc. We have really forfeited our right to prevent animals in other regions of the world from becoming extinct. Developing states will look at us as hypocrites if we take up such a view.

Until people are all equal in terms of prosperity, there will never be enough of a consensus on animal rights to do anything to save them. Countries like China simply dont care - they have to worry about their people =(

So I guess what I'm getting at is, its not possible to do it any other way than helping humanity first..?

[Pix the Skull Kid]

So we should therefore prioritise a species' importance by how few of them remain in the world? So that certain types of whales are more important than people etc.

I do admit that there is a delicate balance, but it is very difficult politically for anything to be done about it now. By advancing to a point of everyone having computers, cars, a right to education, etc. We have really forfeited our right to prevent animals in other regions of the world from becoming extinct. Developing states will look at us as hypocrites if we take up such a view.

Until people are all equal in terms of prosperity, there will never be enough of a consensus on animal rights to do anything to save them. Countries like China simply dont care - they have to worry about their people =(

So I guess what I'm getting at is, its not possible to do it any other way than helping humanity first..?

Helping humanity will lead to the downfall of all wildlife on earth. I'd rather save an animal than save a human. When it comes to saving the planet of its beautiful creatures, politics can be crincled up and thrown away like a piece of paper for all I care.

For a minute, switch places with the animals. At this very moment put your mind into that of an animal. You see your home get torn down, and your food supply be taken away, and no one could care less about you. Throw rocks at you to keep you away from their food even though your on the verge of starving to death. See you dieing on the ground and just walk past you saying to themself "Eh, it will die soon anyway might as well leave it alone" instead of making an attempt to save you?

Once you learn to think like an animal, things like politics wil no longer be important to you.

[Kobarokawa-San]

So we should therefore prioritise a species' importance by how few of them remain in the world? So that certain types of whales are more important than people etc.

I do admit that there is a delicate balance, but it is very difficult politically for anything to be done about it now. By advancing to a point of everyone having computers, cars, a right to education, etc. We have really forfeited our right to prevent animals in other regions of the world from becoming extinct. Developing states will look at us as hypocrites if we take up such a view.

Until people are all equal in terms of prosperity, there will never be enough of a consensus on animal rights to do anything to save them. Countries like China simply dont care - they have to worry about their people =(

So I guess what I'm getting at is, its not possible to do it any other way than helping humanity first..?

people have priorities and the others only appeared when their own needs are satisfied.. First place our own survival and then we care about others.. thats whats happen in our world.. of course there are exceptions..

but if we wanna save animals we should first save humans? it will take years and years and by that there will no animals rest... thats sad.. we have to do something now when it´s possible

[Ravenblade]

Its not that the politics are important to *me* as such, I'm all for environmentalism, but its that people outside the West won't see it that way. And I dont think there's any way to persuade them otherwise.

Downfall of all wildlife on the planet would seem to be inevitable therefore, as people are not going to change =(

The only thing I would hypothesise that would help, is diverting all funds from animal charities into development of other places in the world x.x Cos then we might be in a position to negotiate for better treatment of animals faster.

I, admittedly, cannot very easily put myself into the mindset of an animal. I did try! And I know there are unspeakable things done to animals as you have said.

My point though, is that regardless of what you or I might think, we have no choice in the matter..and that since most endangered animals reside in developing countries, we have to leave it to them - BUT they aren't interested >.o

Do you see what Im getting at? Unless you managed to persuade a lot of people that the politics were irrelevant when it came to survival of animals..

EDIT - @Kobarokawa-San: Doing something now has not so far done a great deal. Japan is still whaling, endangered species are still endangered..yeah there are some success stories, but with global warming looming...x.x

[Pix the Skull Kid]

Its not that the politics are important to *me* as such, I'm all for environmentalism, but its that people outside the West won't see it that way. And I dont think there's any way to persuade them otherwise.

Downfall of all wildlife on the planet would seem to be inevitable therefore, as people are not going to change =(

The only thing I would hypothesise that would help, is diverting all funds from animal charities into development of other places in the world x.x Cos then we might be in a position to negotiate for better treatment of animals faster.

I, admittedly, cannot very easily put myself into the mindset of an animal. I did try! And I know there are unspeakable things done to animals as you have said.

My point though, is that regardless of what you or I might think, we have no choice in the matter..and that since most endangered animals reside in developing countries, we have to leave it to them - BUT they aren't interested >.o

Do you see what Im getting at? Unless you managed to persuade a lot of people that the politics were irrelevant when it came to survival of animals..

EDIT - @Kobarokawa-San: Doing something now has not so far done a great deal. Japan is still whaling, endangered species are still endangered..yeah there are some success stories, but with global warming looming...x.x

In my opinion a lot of people can be persuaded given enough evidence and arguing the point long enough.

[Kobarokawa-San]

In my opinion a lot of people can be persuaded given enough evidence and arguing the point long enough.

the problem here is that people would have to change their habbits...

and Raven if we don´t do anything now when will we?

[Ravenblade]

In my opinion a lot of people can be persuaded given enough evidence and arguing the point long enough.

You know, this is funny XD I've never been in the minority on this topic!

I mean, certainly you could try. But then persuasion didn't work on China when we told them that global warming would be bad for the whole world, including them, and that their water would run out, food would be in short supply, and that they would be getting acid rain across their land.

They still wanted to develop in order to live the lives we do >.o

@KS - After full development of the world's nations?

Im gonna be frank, I don't think there's any way of saving any of us now - Im just kinda indicating what I think should be done, if there ever were a chance..

[Kobarokawa-San]

You know, this is funny XD I've never been in the minority on this topic!

I mean, certainly you could try. But then persuasion didn't work on China when we told them that global warming would be bad for the whole world, including them, and that their water would run out, food would be in short supply, and that they would be getting acid rain across their land.

They still wanted to develop in order to live the lives we do >.o

@KS - After full development of the world's nations?

Im gonna be frank, I don't think there's any way of saving any of us now - Im just kinda indicating what I think should be done, if there ever were a chance..

as i said.. we have priorities as our full development to use your words.

but don´t you think that it will take too much time? and by that time animals will be in a very bad way and maybe we couldn´t save them?

they are worst than we so shouldn´t we save them or divide our efforts with them and with our development?

[Ravenblade]

I think the question about how much to divide our efforts depends on how much i spent on either group.

If its 50:50, then I think more should be given to human development (as this will, perversely, result in no delay to animal development whilst giving humans development that bit faster)

If the proportion spent on animals is already minimal, then I guess things are ok as they are.

[Pix the Skull Kid]

as i said.. we have priorities as our full development to use your words.

but don´t you think that it will take too much time? and by that time animals will be in a very bad way and maybe we couldn´t save them?

they are worst than we so shouldn´t we save them or divide our efforts with them and with our development?

Change habbits we may need to do, but who says we cant develop in a way that wont harm the environment?

Leave natural forests alone. Build tree farms and use THAT for lumber. I'm not saying it will save all forests, but it might help a couple.

Plus eventually humans will be so overpopulated that there's not even enough room on livable land to fit us all. By then there will be no animals left.

It's either stop our species from growing so rapidly and save the wildlife or let the animals die, let our species grow, and end up dieing anyway. At least the first option gives us both a chance to live togeather in harmony.

[Ravenblade]

Change habbits we may need to do, but who says we cant develop in a way that wont harm the environment?

Leave natural forests alone. Build tree farms and use THAT for lumber. I'm not saying it will save all forests, but it might help a couple.

Plus eventually humans will be so overpopulated that there's not even enough room on livable land to fit us all. By then there will be no animals left.

It's either stop our species from growing so rapidly and save the wildlife or let the animals die, let our species grow, and end up dieing anyway. At least the first option gives us both a chance to live togeather in harmony.

I think another of humanities great flaws will end up solving the overpopulation problem. Given enough time, we'll find something else to have a war about...