Yes or No to piracy

[Wio]

Digital code is no different than a painting, if you where to paint a picture than go to sale it, and someone made copies of it and sold them, what would you do?

Tell them to stop? in what court? and what if they where in developing nations shipping them to America for profit?

I would do the same thing I did when the kids across the street got into the lemonade business: Find a new source of income.

If one can monopolize on a necessity/inelastic product then another should be able to monopolize on an elastic commodity.

I hope that's a slip.

You’re right, it happens, but for what reason - because the two crafted the same identical piece in separate isolated environments, or because one inspired/subconsciously moved another?

This doesn't matter. Society doesn't benefit more from the creator playing their original song, but rather from the person who plays the song better.

I know you think otherwise, but I prefer not to discourage and displace workers within these markets.

No one would be discouraged, rather the gravy train would be taken away.

Accomplishment and sincere gratitude does not feed a person nor can it guarantee a stable lifestyle for the person pursing such profession.

It can. When it doesn't, one shouldn't quit their day job.


Anyway, even if copyright didn't exist, it would be up to the artist to make their work harder to rip and pirate.

Or they could just accept downloading for what it is and try to profit from it.

[Dark Wolf 09]

Piracy is a no factor, that's why there is a copyright towards animation, software, and music software. It is an intellectual property, like a patent. Observing exhibitions of inevitable piracy will continue on the side note there is "copyright infringement" terms of violation, just like how you agreed to the terms of use on any applications.

Here's an analogy, say if I steal one of Demonplight's subjects on any interest, and I claim it to be mine as well I patent it towards my self, and I had a lawyer standing by just in case if he sues, however I will still win because of the large income I have made. That would be the case scenario.

However, we can stop piracy by looking at the terms of use, and terms of violations perhaps?

[Wio]

Piracy is a no factor, that's why there is a copyright towards animation, software, and music software. It is an intellectual property, like a patent. Observing exhibitions of inevitable piracy will continue on the side note there is "copyright infringement" terms of violation, just like how you agreed to the terms of use on any applications.

Here's an analogy, say if I steal one of Demonplight's subjects on any interest, and I claim it to be mine as well I patent it towards my self, and I had a lawyer standing by just in case if he sues, however I will still win because of the large income I have made. That would be the case scenario.

However, we can stop piracy by looking at the terms of use, and terms of violations perhaps?

If you fixed the bold text I might be able to understand you better.


I think the problem is mainly punctuation, and I'm just not smart enough at the moment to be able to put it together.

[Rin!]

I like to think I'm against piracy but yet I do so much free downloads its not funny. :| so I don't have much of an answer for this one..

[MetalKnight]

I hope that's a slip.

Yes and no... Monopolies are bad- so that was a bad example... Nonetheless, it seems odd to say "Yeah, go ahead and exploit a necessity/innovation that useful for a while," but wave the red flag when someone wants ownership over a commodity good he created.

This doesn't matter. Society doesn't benefit more from the creator playing their original song, but rather from the person who plays the song better.

Society benefits more from innovation... Not so much from the 1,000th version of Iron Man or the 1,000,000th skit trying to impersonate Dave Chappelle's Rick James.

No one would be discouraged, rather the gravy train would be taken away.


It can. When it doesn't, one shouldn't quit their day job.

The problem is, millions of workers will be laid off from their day job if society tossed the copyright laws out the window. Not very encouraging for the markets...

[Dark Wolf 09]

Yes and no... Monopolies are bad- so that was a bad example... Nonetheless, it seems odd to say "Yeah, go ahead and exploit a necessity/innovation that useful for a while," but wave the red flag when someone wants ownership over a commodity good he created.

Monopolies are bad, that's why nobody plays the damn game in the middle of the night, and perform imitations from Donald Trumps: Apprentice.

Society benefits more from innovation... Not so much from the 1,000th version of Iron Man or the 1,000,000th skit trying to impersonate Dave Chappelle's Rick James.

That's why they're remakes of the song, like a techno version perhaps?? Even though Dave Chappelle is acknowledged as one of the funniest impersonators, why didn't he get sued by the "KKK" on that one skit? EDIT: Yeah, I have no idea what the hell I am talking about, all I know is piracy is bad. Im kinda bleh today.

Edit: <I loved the KKK skit though, it was soo funny. I liked the books he wrote. xD>

[MetalKnight]

Monopolies are bad, that's why nobody plays the damn game in the middle of the night, and perform imitations from Donald Trumps: Apprentice.

Phew, thank God for copyright laws, am I right? Last thing we need is more "reality" TV shows.

But seriously, I'm not exactly sure what you meant by that (the way its worded is a little unclear)... If people want to play the game recreationally in the middle of the night, I don't think Trump's attorney will kick down their door file a suit against them... Now if a major TV corporation mimicked the show from the ground up, he probably would.

That's why they're remakes of the song, like a techno version perhaps??

Under the copyright laws, if someone isn't in it for the profit, then one can usually cover a song or remix it without any legal action. If one wants to make money for a good they did not originally create, they can get permission/pay royalties to use it (ie DJs, radio stations, other musical artists).

Nonetheless, my point was meant to be, that it yields little benefit when thousands are milking the same song for money or reputation. It doesn't bring anything new to the table and it shafts the person who actually made it.

Even though Dave Chappelle is acknowledged as one of the funniest impersonators, why didn't he get sued by the "KKK" on that one skit?

There's a distinction between crafting material using real world facts or aspects and downright ripping someone elses work.

Dave Chappelle is full within his rights to create a satire referring to the KKK. A lot of comedians/writers do similar things.

Now if someone took the tape of that skit, mass produced it and distributed/sold it to the public... That would infringe copyright laws.

[demonplight]

It's not that, if I won't get paid for the hours and moeny that I put into making a new product I wont make it. So technological advancement would slow or stop.

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

It's not that, if I won't get paid for the hours and moeny that I put into making a new product I wont make it. So technological advancement would slow or stop.

Not really, look at Linux.

It probably would hurt the amount of high-quality games put out, or maybe not. It's not as though a fairly high-quality game engine couldn't be open sourced. After that it's just a matter of convincing people to make you models (or take them from another open source game and change them slightly), finding someone to write a story, and a lot of scripting.

Although I will be the first to admit that the open source community to the best of my knowledge has never managed to make a decent game that would appeal to a wide audiance that isn't a puzzle game or something.

[demonplight]

Yes and no... Monopolies are bad- so that was a bad example... Nonetheless, it seems odd to say "Yeah, go ahead and exploit a necessity/innovation that useful for a while," but wave the red flag when someone wants ownership over a commodity good he created.



Society benefits more from innovation... Not so much from the 1,000th version of Iron Man or the 1,000,000th skit trying to impersonate Dave Chappelle's Rick James.



The problem is, millions of workers will be laid off from their day job if society tossed the copyright laws out the window. Not very encouraging for the markets...

Not really, look at Linux.

It probably would hurt the amount of high-quality games put out, or maybe not. It's not as though a fairly high-quality game engine couldn't be open sourced. After that it's just a matter of convincing people to make you models (or take them from another open source game and change them slightly), finding someone to write a story, and a lot of scripting.

Although I will be the first to admit that the open source community to the best of my knowledge has never managed to make a decent game that would appeal to a wide audiance that isn't a puzzle game or something.

The thing about linux is that it is made by people in IT and what not.
Now they go to work and get paid, and knowing this they went and got the education so that they could get the job. So now on the side they do programming for fun, with an education they got to get paid. take the get paid out of the equation and they no longer will get the education, thus no Linux.

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

The thing about linux is that it is made by people in IT and what not.
Now they go to work and get paid, and knowing this they went and got the education so that they could get the job. So now on the side they do programming for fun, with an education they got to get paid. take the get paid out of the equation and they no longer will get the education, thus no Linux.

Nowhere near all of IT is focused on making products people would want to steal.

[Dark Wolf 09]

Phew, thank God for copyright laws, am I right? Last thing we need is more "reality" TV shows.

But seriously, I'm not exactly sure what you meant by that (the way its worded is a little unclear)... If people want to play the game recreationally in the middle of the night, I don't think Trump's attorney will kick down their door file a suit against them... Now if a major TV corporation mimicked the show from the ground up, he probably would.

I agree, thank God for copyright laws, if someone took your idea and patent it you wouldn't make the income you wanted in a life time, as for Donald Trump. That man is the second coming of the Devil, he has advocates like no tomorrow, and he's rich as well, owns all establishments. (Joke: He even owns the Taco Bell near my street, and the Motel 9.) Hahaha.

[Yugure's Goddess]

This topic just makes me want to boot up LimeWire.

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

You are all idiots! For the love of God the anime industry is on the verge of collapsing. In every anime magazine, they have been repeatedly discussing the topic. Almost all of them agree that the reason why the industry is in such a slump is because of morons like you ignoring the law and the pleads from the industry. I hope all of that believe pirating is no big thing burn in the deepest and darkest layers of hell! My God this topic has been an issue since mid 2006 when less and less anime starting to go on shelves. IT is obvious that the industry is having problems if you simply look at the facts. First Geneon shut down to the American consumer. Second Newtype USA is no longer being printed in English. My God you idiots why anime society is crumbling and yet your are to dense to realize it. BURN BURN BURN YOU THORN IN SOCIETIES .

Why should we care? I don't just mean me, a don't care about animu much anymore, but we as in the people here. The reason that piracy of anime has ALWAYS BEEN rampant is two fold.

1) You have no way of knowing whether any given series will be picked up by a domestic distributor, and even if it is you will have to wait a fairly long time (months to years) between it's original premiere in Japan and domestic release date. Nobody wants to wait for a long, long time to see something re-dubbed for money when a decent subbing group can release a subbed episode in a short period of time and for free.

The whole industry has failed to even try to compete with the subbing groups, and it wouldn't be that hard. Simultaneously release the Japanese dubbed animu with an English subbed animu on a ad-supported TV channel and/or video streaming network. End of competition.

2) The English Animu industry and/or the Japanese production companies are price gouging bastards. I can buy a season of almost any domestic TV show for $40 or less. Animu starts at $40 (for old series that sold very well and have been reissued) and peaks around $70. The manga industry is even worse. I can buy a decent book that will last me 4-6 hours for $6. A $12 manga book will last me 45 minutes, tops. Even American graphic novels, which are usually printed on better quality paper in GLORIOUS COLOR last 2-4 hours and cost about $20.

If you aren't keeping track, let me break it down in dollars/hour.
Book -> $6/4 hours = $1.5/hour (or $6/6 hours = $1/hour)
Manga -> $12/.75 hour = $16/hour
Graphic Novel -> $20/2 hours = $10/hour (or $20/4 hours = $5/hour)

Unless you are made of money, you'd be a fool to pay what they charge.

What the English animu industry has failed to realize is that they need animu fans more then animu fans need them. If they all die, what happens? Animu fans still get their animu like they always have. The American animu community was built on ruthlessly pirating Japanese television, and if a legal alternative to piracy can't/won't be made to work, then back to piracy the animu fans will go.

[demonplight]

I hate to say it, but I do agree with ding dong up there.
The trials facing the "AMERICAN" anime industry is well, you can't rip people off for long. and they do. I do buy all the anime that I like, Even then I will buy them off of Ebay.
They do inflate the prices, even if it is a specialty item with a small fan base, the simple fact is that the Japanese companies can produce a cheaper product, keep it in house and charge less. but when they are liscenced to American companies like what is it VIC or Vicom, they bump the price up. Compounding the problem, they release on disc at a time, what am I to wait a month to watch the next 4 episodes while I can get a better copy on line, then buy them? Hell half the people who DL anime dont even buy them.

And to piss me off even more, a lot of the dubbed stuff is crap because it has to be family friendly because only children watch it. eeh. to hell with the American companies. Anime will still be in English, because there is money to be made, but it has to be marketed better and more thought has to be put into that. Currently we are just weeding out the weak links. For a stronger better tomorrow.

Also the American Market is a different one than that of Japan, you cannot sale us a lot of crappy little things with anime on it. In japan marketing the anime on product and plastering the market with it contributes greatly to the profitability of the anime. Here in the states that just wont work.

If they want anime to be profitable they need a new approach to the American market, take advantage of the new technology and learn from the fan base. for example, [fan sub group name here] can sub an anime in under 24 hours. they do it for free, and it is a high quality release. if say a Japaneses company wants to take advantage of this, they can do something simular to that, but with American commercials on it. I will DL an sub with commercials on it. eeh they could release it in the same day. if nothing else with the cost of bandwidth what it is they could almost do a pod cast, and control the video.

[Sanosuke23]

You know, I kind of wondered why companies, instead of outright C&Ding subbing communities, didn't just hire them as independent contractors to do the job and as part of that say "Look, if you want to do this then we'll have to charge a small fee to members of your website for each episode," or then move them in under their own website's banner.

Unless this was tried and the subbing communities said no, in which case I think they're idiots.

[demonplight]

They wont because it is unethical.
Remember to them it is stealing, so they would be negotiating to thieves.

[Sanosuke23]

By that logic, any parody is stealing.

Besides, it isn't stealing if the fansubbers have been doing it since before they had the license. In fact, they never would have BOUGHT the license if they didn't think there was a market as evidenced in part by how popular the fansubs are.

So it's ethical to use them as a measuring stick for viable licenses but it isn't ethical to put them on your payroll instead of vilifying them?

[Drifter Uk]

theres a great image i found a while back where there was 3 posters. 2 said 'is piracy free... no you go to jail', but there was a small one in the middle that said 'is piracy free... yes at the pirate bay'. ill upload it if i find it

anyway, i think that picture sums up most peoples feeling towards piracy. personally, i would rather buy all my stuff legit, but sometimes if u cant get a copy of it except by downloading it, i will download it

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

By that logic, any parody is stealing.

Besides, it isn't stealing if the fansubbers have been doing it since before they had the license. In fact, they never would have BOUGHT the license if they didn't think there was a market as evidenced in part by how popular the fansubs are.

So it's ethical to use them as a measuring stick for viable licenses but it isn't ethical to put them on your payroll instead of vilifying them?

In a standard agreement, the licensees is also are legally bound to help protect the IP. So, if the company uses the fansubbers as a measuring stick, they do it when they have no legal obligation to stop them. After they sign the contract, they are required to make some effort to C&D them to the gates of hell. I don't think that under most agreements you can farm out the license to other entities on your own, you'd need the parent corporation's approval at the very least.

[shinjuuzumaki13]

it's a personal debate of mine.

[Ωmega]

Im not going to lie, I pirate music. Not whole albums mind you, just a few songs here or there.

I just personally dont want to go out and buy an album just because theres maybe 2 songs I want.

But thats just me

[Sanosuke23]

@MP2k: I'm fairly certain they could offer it as an out-of-court settlement in addition to a C&D order. As for hiring out-of-house crews, it's done in the video game and movie industries for various aspects of production so I don't see how this is any different.

This wouldn't apply for Funimation or 4Kids of course, as their scripts are practically complete rewrites. Any company that touts authenticity as a selling point could do much worse than, say, covering Kaizoku's site bills and paying per-episode.

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

@MP2k: I'm fairly certain they could offer it as an out-of-court settlement in addition to a C&D order. As for hiring out-of-house crews, it's done in the video game and movie industries for various aspects of production so I don't see how this is any different.

This wouldn't apply for Funimation or 4Kids of course, as their scripts are practically complete rewrites. Any company that touts authenticity as a selling point could do much worse than, say, covering Kaizoku's site bills and paying per-episode.

Anime Localizers just buy a product, re-dub it, and sell it. Those are basically the only things they can do to the product, as per the license. VG and Movie companies have to create a product out of old IP, so their licenses tend to be more open.

The only things you need to sub are translators and video editing equipment. Localizers already have both, so why should they hire pirates to do it?

[demonplight]

For the record yes I did call him "ding dong".

Where as yes it is unethical, using multipol sources and open market for the product would result in a reduced price. additionally the model of many fan sub groups would in fact give them an edge over the current companies like ADV. But I will say this, ADV has admitted to heiring members of fan sub groups.


I will wager this.

As a business model, If I was a leader in a fan sub group, who has displayed a regular and professional release of subbed works. could attract talent from voices, as well as creators.
They could open a small shop, or rent a voice studio, and instead of offering lets say a lump sum for the rights give royalties instead. They could then translate the works, dub them and sub them. Because of the royalties and their already distribution advantages place ads, in their works and pod cast. making more money because of not relaying on network Television, as well as have a world wide audience, and name recognition. They could then also release them on DVD with an ordering system where the DVDs where burnt to order, then shipped. this would allow them greater control over the retailers and also remove the need for ware houses and so on.

I will argue that this is the future of the American entertainment industry, take in mind the the Digital cross over in 09 will make all of this more possible because of the reduced price in Bandwidth and so on and so forth. Though take in mind this requires an inverters. But seeing that there are people in this forum with all types of backgrounds it is only a matter of time before there is some type of collaboration. In fact I would be interested in it after I get my MBA. There will be a lot of money to be made in a system like if you are among the first there.
Remember that ADV did start in a closet in a office building. Even the name came from an anime.

Remember that the Anime is actually appealing to a technologically adept audience, so it needs to be marketed in that manor. To this point it has not.