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View Poll Results: What type of government, economic system would you choose?

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16. You may not vote on this poll
  • capitalism

    4 25.00%
  • socialism

    7 43.75%
  • Don't know what you are talking about.

    0 0%
  • Desert Island.

    5 31.25%
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Thread: socialism or capitalism

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade of Life View Post

    It's a good compromise I think.
    There is no such thing as a good compromise, you either live free or die

  2. #27
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    What is freedom is someone must be a slave to your freedom?
    In addition how free will one be when health insurance will cost more than you make?
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  3. #28
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    I've flip-flopped on this issue many times over the years, but I've finally come to the conclusion that both work well under certain circumstances. I hate the inequities of Capitalism, but you can't argue with results...It works! On the other hand, I think certain things, like education and medicine are best when Socialized. I now think that the best compromise between the two would be to take the US system and add in socialized medicine while keeping the rest of the capitalist system we have now...

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonplight View Post
    What is freedom is someone must be a slave to your freedom?
    In addition how free will one be when health insurance will cost more than you make?
    Competition always brings costs down.
    Plus, I don't mind the government putting a cap on how expensive can get, but that's about how much they can get involved

  5. #30
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    socialism does not limit competition in all cases, it depends how far people will want to take it, but that is what we call a compromise.
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  6. #31
    Senior Member Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aizmov View Post
    There is no such thing as a good compromise, you either live free or die
    I like that way of life, I've lived it for many years.

    But I'm getting too old for that now, and see a need to protect my dreams better than capitalism will let me.

    Here at the place where our love reached it's climax, I leave behind a broken heart torn to pieces by fate.

    Merry Christmas.

  7. #32
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    Pure capitalism fails, we learned that in the 1930s when we realized that citizens could not always “pull themselves up by their bootstraps” (unless you think 25% of the American population was lazy and liked starving). Capitalism breeds competition but hinders collaboration, which divides the potential resources amongst the people. Like the theory said, the strong survive with everything, but the weak are left out of a job.

    Pure Socialism fails just as hard, we learned observed the Eastern bloc after World War 2. Even without a totalitarian regimes, a guaranteed wage and job spurs a “we pretend to work, you pretend to pay” mentality. Socialism pools human resources, but stamps out any and all motivation. It sort of like working on a group project, the many laze off while the few workers get it done… Eventually, their motivation disappears as well.


    That is why western civilization as a whole threw both extremes out the window a long time ago. We have welfare, public education, social security, bankruptcy policies, worker’s unions, a consolidated electric company, law enforcement, poverty/low income housing programs, antitrust committees, and a progressive income tax. All of these are part of the American safety net. All of these would fall under a “socialist” economy. In the same respect, companies hold their own autonomy to make whatever financial decision they feel like. They can go bankrupt or skyrocket through the roof. This economic aspect falls under capitalism. As we have seen, this system works much better than the two former…

    So to answer your question, both suck.
    Look somewhere in the middle of the spectrum for a better form of government.

    http://content.answers.com/main/cont...l-spectrum.png

  8. #33
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    Azimov, you need a better avatar, seriously.

    I voted for capitalism.
    In a capitalist system, poor people in need are not on their own. People with more money have the option of donating money to the needy.

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalKnight
    Pure capitalism fails, we learned that in the 1930s when we realized that citizens could not always “pull themselves up by their bootstraps” (unless you think 25% of the American population was lazy and liked starving). Capitalism breeds competition but hinders collaboration, which divides the potential resources amongst the people. Like the theory said, the strong survive with everything, but the weak are left out of a job.
    Capitalism didn't cause the depression. The market needed to correct itself

    Look somewhere in the middle of the spectrum for a better form of government.
    That spectrum is fail. It doesn't make sense. The axes should be labeled based on economic and social issues.
    Last edited by Wio; 04-15-2008 at 08:40 PM.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    Azimov, you need a better avatar, seriously.
    Why? What's wrong with this?

  10. #35
    Senior Member Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life has a reputation beyond repute Renegade of Life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalKnight View Post
    So to answer your question, both suck.
    Look somewhere in the middle of the spectrum for a better form of government.

    http://content.answers.com/main/cont...l-spectrum.png
    Which is where the Democratic Socialism I mentioned before comes into play.

    It is a hybrid of Capitalism and Socalism, and holds good aspects of both of them while still protecting civil liberties and even is compatible with the American Dream.

    you get the government-guaranteed services, while still having capitalism's motivation to excel. Likewise, the government protects the people from the onslaught of capitalist interests, and by limiting the large businesses promotes competition in that numerous small companies can exist and compete with each other even in markets where big players already exist, something which rarely happens in a pure capitalist society or even one like we have today.

    And, structured properly it might even provide resolution to the endangered Social Security system, the improved government cashflow from more consistent taxation and even direct profit of government-managed large businesses could do wonders for the budget and for state and federal improvements.

    Plus, it could potentially limit the price rise of Gasoline, since at the moment they are just plain price gouging again. There's absolutely no reason it is going for $3.45 per gallon, when the stuff only costs $.75 per gallon to make and get to the station.

    Here at the place where our love reached it's climax, I leave behind a broken heart torn to pieces by fate.

    Merry Christmas.

  11. #36
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    I'd just like to add that I agree with MetalKnight and Renegade of Life. It seems increasingly obvious that a Capitalist-Socialist hybrid is the best answer. It's basically the system we have now. I think the real question is how much Capitalism and how much Socialism do you add to the mix?

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    Capitalism didn't cause the depression. The market needed to correct itself
    Capitalism may not be a direct cause of the depressions, but the point I am making is that such an economy goes through such corrections, and as a result- can lead to a detrimental amount of displaced workers. Consider this, the socialist/communist system never faced a "depression," they've always had 100% employment.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Rambler View Post
    I think the real question is how much Capitalism and how much Socialism do you add to the mix?
    I thought that's what we were discussing all along. Some lean towards more capitalism, others lead more towards socialism.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    I thought that's what we were discussing all along. Some lean towards more capitalism, others lead more towards socialism.
    It's what some were discussing. Others were saying that one or the other is the "True Path". My point is, OK we're going with a hybird Capitalist-Socialist system, so what will be socialized and what will operate in a free market? After all, both the US and Western Europe have elements of Capitalism and Socialism in their economies. But the mix is very different between the two as the US is far more Capitalist than most Western European nations while Europe is far more Socialist than the US.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Rambler View Post
    It's what some were discussing. Others were saying that one or the other is the "True Path". My point is, OK we're going with a hybird Capitalist-Socialist system, so what will be socialized and what will operate in a free market? After all, both the US and Western Europe have elements of Capitalism and Socialism in their economies. But the mix is very different between the two as the US is far more Capitalist than most Western European nations while Europe is far more Socialist than the US.
    Nothing needs to be socialized. The government can subsidize certain things at most.

  16. #41
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    +Rep for MetalKnight and Renegade of Life for the enlightenment

    i cant say im for socialism because i guess its hard for me to believe to fully work, since there is an equal distribution of wealth, whats the difference between the garbage man and the surgeon?
    the surgeon has to go through many years of schooling and practice before he can officially become one while the garbageman just puts on a uniform and throws away people's trash, also if the garbage man has 3 kids while the surgeon is living by himself, the garbageman will have a munch bigger house due to the fact he needs it more. yes it would be nice be it seems too idealistic for me and it gets rid of all incentive and motivation to try hard, why be a doctor when you get the same amount of money as a cashier?
    also socialism can sometimes lead to fascism


    of course there are just as many problems with capitalism, with unfair distribution of wealth and monopolies but i would have to say i would lean more to capitalism than socialism, though i would have to agree with MetalKnight and Renegade of Life on this one

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bananana View Post
    also socialism can sometimes lead to fascism
    No.... socialism leads to communism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bananana View Post
    of course there are just as many problems with capitalism, with unfair distribution of wealth and monopolies
    Socialisms aren't monopoly free. Being anti-monopoly legislation is neutral to capitalism/socialism.

    Also, wealth is always unfairly distributed. There is nothing you can do about that.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    Also, wealth is always unfairly distributed. There is nothing you can do about that.
    Like how the Rolling Stones explained economics very simply...
    You can't always get what you want
    But if you try sometimes,
    you just might find
    You get what you need.


    Yes wealth is unfairly distributed. However, a system that hands out food and money to people who are just plain too lazy to work gives them no incentive to work- the US wellfare system is one of the most socialist ideas in this whole government, and one I oppose because in this day and age there is no reason why everyone cannot work other than not enough jobs in the marketplace (thanks to super-sizing of businesses and outsourcing)

    Likewise, letting people amass so much wealth at other people's expense that they don't have anything better to do with than waste it on crack is just as bad in my mind.

    True there will always be higher and lower class people, but you can tighten the spectrum a little bit and in a sense re-integrate the highest and lowest classes back into the working middle class.

    Yes there is still an incentive to excel. The government wouldn't take away your money if you suddenly were making millions, nor would they hand out to people who are not so physically or mentally incapacitated they could not do even the simple task of sitting in the entrance to Wal-mart greeting people.

    However, the government would be able to encourage competitors to appear, and would offer incentives to invest that money back into the economy and produce more jobs- so that the lower classes could share that wealth.

    That's where our present government has it a bit off, their incentives only make the CEOs even richer and do little to nothing to improve working conditions or increase employment rates.

    Perhaps it sounds Utopian, but I almost think I found the problem with Marx's theory.

    If the middle class should rise up and take control, it will only result in the former lower and upper classes forming a new middle class, while the old middle class splits to make a new upper and lower.

    Instead of revolution, if you gently push the upper and lower classes back into the middle class, wouldn't that do absolute wonders for an economy?

    I can picture production picking up greatly, unemployment rates would fall dramatically, and we might actually even get somewhere in research of alternative energies and other new technologies.

    Of course, it's an idealist's dream at the moment. But who knows? Perhaps I am on to something here, the solution to the world's economy.

    For the next 100 years at least, before people figure out the loopholes and exploits.
    Last edited by Renegade of Life; 04-15-2008 at 10:17 PM.

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    Merry Christmas.

  19. #44
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    Renegade, you're confusing me even more.
    First of all, I never argued in favor of socialism, so you don't need to lecture to me about it's shortcomings.

    Second of all, how does some dude's amassing of wealth end up being at the expense of someone else?



    Also, what's wrong will the lower/upper class? I mean I can see the lower class being a burden if they life off welfare but other than that...

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    I don't think that violence should be allowed to lead the way to a new form of economic government.

    In addition I don't think that the Great depression was caused by a market readjustment. Globializiation in early 20th century, combining with drought in the mid west, and a stock dip causing people in the states to spend and barrow less. causing the market to crash.
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonplight View Post
    In addition I don't think that the Great depression was caused by a market readjustment. Globializiation in early 20th century, combining with drought in the mid west, and a stock dip causing people in the states to spend and barrow less. causing the market to crash.
    No one said anything about a market readjustment causing anything. I said that the market needed to fix itself. It was not given sufficient time, because socialists took advantage of people's fears.
    I also said that capitalism didn't cause the depression.

    How did globalization help cause the depression?

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    it was in the first days of real globilazation. the worlds markets where starting to trade more, so when one economy went down another would follow, then another. the Great Depression was not an American issue, it was global.
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    Yea, they should teach Karl Marx's economics and what not in the US just like they do in Japan, Europe, and many other countries. I guess it's just become too taboo in the US for that now though.

    I vote for socialism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    Renegade, you're confusing me even more.
    First of all, I never argued in favor of socialism, so you don't need to lecture to me about it's shortcomings.

    Second of all, how does some dude's amassing of wealth end up being at the expense of someone else?

    Also, what's wrong will the lower/upper class? I mean I can see the lower class being a burden if they life off welfare but other than that...
    As for the first point, it was not intended to be a lecture. Quite literally, I was explaining my perspective of it, and then wandered off into a train of thought and one of my own theories.

    The second part, the only way people are able to really make profit is at someone else's expense. For instance, a company CEO makes a fortune- that is in reality generated entirely by the people of the production floor through regional office.

    Likewise, all the money people make on the stock market has to come from somewhere. Every day, people make money through transactions that potentially and often do lose money for other people.

    While it isn't a serious problem and is indeed essential to an economy, when it occurs in excess you have the birth of an elite and a rapid decay of portions of the middle class down to poverty status. This can be a bad thing, as it forces the government to handout- which then makes the people realize they're gonna get fed if they work or not and stop working, and then we have the same problem communism faced while still being capitalist. Likewise, the new elite often will abuse their money to make more money or cheat on government regulations etc.

    The issue with the lower class is it inevitably becomes plagued with the problems that brought the downfall of communism- people expect handouts whether they contribute or not.

    This puts undue strain on the middle class from below, as they envy these handouts and desire a share of it, while at the same time being pressured by the upper class and all the niceties possessed by them that they can't afford. Which is where I am coming from, I am experiencing this first hand. I make too much money to get handouts or any bonus from the government, while at the same time I barely have enough money to be comfortable.


    And yes, they should teach Karl Marx's economics in American schools. I'm basing on speculation here for what it really contains, though I probably am fairly close to it.

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